We are aware some people in the comments have raised the link between the Khazar-Ashkenazi theory and modern anti-semitic rhetoric. In this video we aimed to debunk this theory without giving the time of day to those who might be motivated by antisemitism in their debate. In hindsight perhaps we should have done so, to highlight the pseudo-history and racism in their argument. As always, thanks for such a fantastic response to our video! If you wish to discuss the topic with us further please join the HiB discord, link in description!
" we noticed that people started noticing that israel has no claim to be a nation because they arent even people of israel but what is modern day Ukraine, which also has a Jewish president and is furthering globalist Zionism as an israel 2.0 "
What is antisemitism? Is noticing Jewish behaviour throughout history since the Iron age hate? What about the many isms and ists, do you know "racist" was invented by JEWISH Leon Trotsky, with intent for non Whites to weaponise it against Whites, and to stop White people from identifying with their own race? What about who funded the Bolshevik Revolution? Wall Street Jews. What about the federal reserve? 1913, founded by JEWS, all of the central banks in the world all owned by Jews or shabbath goys.
I remember hearing a story is that Khazaria wanted to convert to a religion, so the khan got a Muslim, a Priest and a Jew. When the khan asked the Muslim “if I didn’t convert to Islam, which of the other two would you want me to convert too?” The Muslim responded “Jew”, he asked the Christian the same question and he gave the same answer. Thus the khan converted to Judaism.
From what I heard he didn't get a Jewish representative. He was just so annoyed by the Muslim qadi and the Orthodox priest screaming at eachother he kicked them out and sent a letter to the nearest rabbi demanding he show up at court and circumcise his nobles.
My dad was a historian, and I remember that he once told me that the Khazars converted to Judaism since they were in the buffer zone between Christianity and Islam, they not only didn't want to be indirectly subservient to any of the two biggest religion but also keep trading with both, but didn't want to be pagans because pegans are hated and treated as savages whilst at least Judaism is an abrahamic religion and there were already many jews living there. Cheers! Great content. Of course, for now, it is a theory that can't be proven until we find archaeological evidence.
To add to this, there actually were numerous archeological digs in the area that uncovered many Jewish artifacts from the Khazars. Unfortunately, those digs were conducted by the Soviet Union, which wasn't too keen on the idea of a Jewish power raiding their ancestors. The archeological sites were flooded, and the artifacts destroyed or lost. There's actually was an old obscure documentary about the Jewish presence in the region (which I unfortunately do not know the name of off hand), which included a segment showcasing a small warehouse filled to the brim with said artifacts. Unfortunately it's likely that none of them survived, a true loss to history. 😢
@@jesterslight yeesh. It’s thinks like this that make me wonder just how much history and technology we lost because someone or something decided “fuck you in particular” to a group of people.
My first CK 3 game was in Russia (Novgorod, I saw online that it's an "easy" run") and I always wondered why the big Turkic country next to me was Jewish.
Interesting thing about Khazaria , there is a theory that Seljuks (yeah that Seljuks) came from a Khazarian family and later became part of Oghuz so it is an interesting theory but still it have little evidince (just like every theory on Seljuk families origin)
@@h3nder no they moved to Aral Region for some reasone in this theory as Seljuks found their Empire after they migrated from Oghuz lands around Aral Sea as we know first days of the Seljuk (The man they named their family after) use Jend as his own base of operations and later most of the Seljuks moved to Khorasan after his death
I assume it's not "removed" but reserved for later development. Especially in the new UI there is an awful lot of empty space around the two starting dates ;)
@@mortache If I remember right, they were essentially confirmed as removed a *long* time ago. That's not to say Paradox can't change their minds and add them at a later date anyway, but so far as I'm aware they're genuinely removed as of now.
@@DonFlufflesPrime I highly disagree. Maybe we won't get the sliding "every years in history" setting or the dozens of bookmarks from CK2, but the main bookmarks will definitely be there. You think they're gonna skip out on Charlemagne? And there's an awful lot of "empty space" between 1200s and the end date of 1453. Then there's Richard the goddamn Lionheart and Saladin
@@mortache Oh no I agree that it makes total sense for them to add it, but I believe I read something about them saying those dates wouldn't be added, at least a while back. I'm unsure whether they meant it wouldn't be added at release (which is probable) but the way I understood it, they were essentially stating that they wouldn't be adding those dates.
Since nomads had no clear borders in a way that is implemented in games, and nomads in game automatically convert territory to their religion it isn't hard to figure out why it's hard to make a much smaller jewish faith while still having jewish characters being nomadic. This goes back to CK2 by the way.
The idea that "nomads had no clear borders" is heavily questionned by many historians nowadays. The whole idea of nomads just wandering where they want is probably not very realistic. It's more likely that each nomadic tribe had its land, quite well known and delimited, with a summer and a winter pasture. Grazing on another tribe's pasture could mean war. At least, that's modern historians opinion on Mongol era. I don't know Xth century eurasian steppe that much.
nomads absolutely did have borders and it's a weird map-gamer exclusive overcorrection to claim that they didn't a lot of pastoral north american tribes operated on the basis of summer-winter land rotation on pre-scouted and well known pastures that would pretty much be their "borders" and it's rather likely that "old world" nomads operated in the exact same way except on a larger scale
This is actually incorrect as chimpanzees fought a "war" over territory between two rival chimpanzee communities. The concept of war (and thus a line separating "us" and "them", i.e. borders, if you stretch the meaning) predates humanity@@Saufs0ldat Edit: Gombe Chimpanzee War, 1974-1978
to be honest you can't be 100% historically accurat, there is a lot of history that can't be proven to an accurate degree and there will always be something to nitpick.
The worse part is that it's a canard invented by people who simply didn't want to accept that the Ashkenazi came from either Europe or the Levant. So they claimed that they must have come from the Tartar lands. How this canard ended up in a Paradox game is quite shocking to me.
Speaking about characters that caught your eye for me it has to be the neighboring Jarl Dyre 'the Stranger' of Könugarðr who is a Genius. A game with him when you try to conquer Khazaria is aways fun.
This dude is actually made up too. The "Tale of Bygone Years" by Nestor says that Rurik sent his two boyars called Askold and Dyre (name is actually pronounced like Deer) to pillage Constantinople, but in the process of doing so, since Kiev was located conveniently right on their path, they conquered and ruled it as co-rulers. After the fail in Constantinople Askold and Dyre ruled Kiev until Rurik's successor, Oleg aka Helgi 'the Seer' didn't decide one day that Kiev suits him better and then took the city, brutally slaying both. The problem is that there is no way to portray co-ruling in this game, which is why instead of Askold and Dyre PDX placed a guy called Dyre from house Askold
@@anobstinatecephalopod4605 There is a theory that indeed it was one person and Paradox went with it: "It seems that in Old East Slavic it was originally "askold Dir" and not "Askold i Dir" as it is known from the Primary Chronicle. The word askold or oskold is derived from Old Norse óskyldr meaning strange, so there was probably a ruler of Kiev called Dir by the Slavs and the Varangians called him something like "óskyldr Dyri"-stranger Dir. The Russian Varangians later forgot the meaning of óskyldr so Nestor wrote about two rulers of Kiev-about Askold and Dir."
@@tariver1693 The main argument in favour that Dyr was a single person is that in the whole Chronicle, Askold and Dyr were never mentioned seperetly. In every mention, the Chronicle always goes "Askold and Dyr did that" and "Askold and Dyr did this", implying that they were a single entity. And as you've already mentioned, óskyldr is not a real scandinavian name, so it might have been a title. The counterargument to this is that Askold was burried seperetly from Dyr according to the Chronicle, yet archeologists couldn't find any remains of either Askold or Dyr in those places, which makes the whole existance of both of them rather questionable.
@@starless267 to be honest, the credibility of Nestor is lacking, especially when we speak about pre-christian Rus. The thing is, the guy goes all for memes when talking about pagans, and doesn't even want to hide it; if I remember correctly, he described some slavic tribes as being incestuous, rakish and cannibalistic - until they accepted the light of Christ that is. He goes as far as naming the sole reason why Askold and Dyre failed in Constantinople: in his words, pagans were very successful at first, leaving Basileus no other choice but to pray to the God, who was so pissed at them for slaying and robbing good christians, that he conjured the storm that only damaged heathens. Not surprising, considering the guy was a monk.
I did that one time! I slowly built up my development and men-at-arms, and waited until they got a sucky emporer and kept getting bombarded by rebellious vassals and lost most of their army surpressing them. Went straight from count to emporer, it was crazy! Luckily I'd had Dyre rack up Diplo lifestyles, so he befriended most of his powerful vassals pretty quickly, though we did lose a couple duchies to independence wars...
Kinda random but just wanted to point out all this "kh" in khazar, khan, khatun etc. comes from a mix-up in russian. Russian have x (kh) instead of "h" so they write "xan" instead of "han" or "kağan"(pronounced kaan) which gets romanized as "khan". You can see khazars were actually Hazars both in Turkic and Persian sources, even caspian sea is named hazar sea in both languages.
Hi, i thought its worth mentioning, but the half nomadic magyars next to the Khazars used a runic writting called in our language as "rovásírás" (which translate to "carved writting"). The magyars for a while were vassals of the Khazars (before the time period CK 3 covers), so it can be debated whether its actually invented by the Khazars or the Magyars... The lack of written documents also can be explained in this regard: the Magyars wrote things down by carving it into wood (a rather bad way to preserve historical records, but for a nomadic ppl. it worked perfectly). To put it bluntly, all the records are just root away with the passage of time. The very fact to the hungarian runic alphabet is survived is purely because the magyars later christianized and adopted the use of paper (while also having remote enough areas where the latin alphabet is not became the norm). My personal take is, the jewish religion is very likely adopted as a "state religion" to easy trade with both byzantine and the arab world without beeing viewed by either side as "enemy" (and act more like a middleman). Its actually not that much out of the realm of posibility, 1 century later the Magyar Confederacy headed by Géza gonna do the same with Christianity (adopting christianity both for the Confederacy and himself in name only, while continue practicing the magyar pagan religion - its done by him due political considerations, namely to please the Holy Roman Empire and prevent he's ppl. to face the same fate as many other nomadic ppl. who settled the Carpathian Basin) The jewish faith very likely fulfilled asimilar role in the Khazar Khanate, nobody (or just very few) actually practiced, but anyone who chose to practice it instead of the Tengri religion was treated no differently. It also explain why coinage may show jewish influence, because its one of the best way to show its the state religion without actually practicing it by anyone. At least thats what i can speculate about it based on what the Magyars went though and how they handled things.
What's your views on the Khazari-Ashkenazi theory, which posits that a large percentage of the modern day Ashkenazi are of Khazar descent, which would make them converts to the religion of Judaism and not actual descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. (also making their claim to the land of Israel illegitimate)
I think the title is a bit harsh 😅 We don't really have a lot of details about them and paradox might got some details wrong , but that doesn't mean the khazars were fake and didn't exist
Bet the guys are Jewish and hence they felt such insecure about a historical fact. May they like it or not, the Khazar elite, at least nominally "converted" to Judaism. Their sincerity or how acknowledged they were is debatable, but it is a historical consensus that they had converted.
I've seeing some historians say that one of the Khazar leaders wanted to convert to an Abrahamic religion, presumably to improve trade and associated relations. He reportedly invited priests from Islamic, Christian, and Jewish faiths to his court in order to inform him of their religions so that he could make a decision. Eventually he chose to convert to Judaism. I don't recall where the evidence of this story came from. Some foreign writer outside the Khaganate, IIRC. It could easily have been a tall tale, by foreigners of the time, to explain why there was a period of Jewish influence in the steppe. I believe the same story also says that khagante didn't last terribly long though.
Funnily enough I actually learned about this in my college courses; the two primary sources we read discussing the origins of the Khazars were Ibn Fadlans, “risāla”, and Mas’ūdī’s “The Meadow of Gold and Mines of Precious Gems”. Both dated to the early 10th century, and written by Arabic authors.
This story comes from Khazar Correspondence that is mentioned in the video. From Wikipedia: After this, several generations passed until a certain King arose whose name was Bulan. He was a wise and God-fearing man, trusting in his Creator with all his heart. He expelled the wizards and idolaters from the land and took refuge in the shadow of his wings ... After this his fame was spread broadcast. The king of the Byzantines and the Arabs who had heard of him sent their envoys and ambassadors with great riches and many great presents to the King as well as some of their wise men with the object of converting him to their own religion. [The Byzantines and Arabs hoped to stop the raids of the Khazars by converting them and later make them allies through shared faith.] But the King-may his soul be bound up in the bundle of life [a standard burial phrase for Jews] With the Lord his God-being wise, sent for a learned Israelite. the King searched, inquired, and investigated carefully and brought the sages together that they might argue about their respective religions. Each of them refuted, however, the arguments of his opponent so that they could not agree. When the King saw this he said to them: "Go home, but return to me on the third day…" On the third day he called all the sages together and said to them. "Speak and argue with one another and make clear to me which is the best religion." They began to dispute with one another without arriving at any results until the King said to the Christian priest "What do you think? Of the religion of the Jews and the Muslims, which is to be preferred?" The priest answered: "The religion of the Israelites is better than that of the Muslims." The King then asked the qadi: "What do you say? Is the religion of the Israelites, or that of the Christians preferable?" The qadi answered: "The religion of the Israelites is preferable." Upon this the King said: "If this is so, you both have admitted with your own mouths that the religion of the Israelites is better Wherefore, trusting in the mercies of God and the power of the Almighty, I choose the religion of Israel, that is, the religion of Abraham. If that God in whom I trust, and in the shadow of whose wings I find refuge, will aid me, He can give me without labor the money, the gold, and the silver which you have promised me. As for you all, go now in peace to your land."
If we are being honest, much of history could easily be fabrication because we simply rely on the idea that many of our primary sources are telling the truth. There is no telling how many smear pieces, propaganda pieces, and outright lies form the backbone of what we think is a historical account of X leader or country. We simply can't question the accounts of judaism in the khanate because we just don't have much left from them.
@@historyinbits I’d be curious to know if your research yields anything interesting about the migration of peoples from England to the Black Sea known as “New England”… I’ve seen some about that but I haven’t thoroughly researched it. Perhaps it would be interesting for your vid!
I definitely appreciate the point about Paradox occasionally choosing gameplay value over historical accuracy and the fact that some things are simply impossible to find accurate information on - I don't think, barring a miracle, that we'll ever truly know the state of Judaism or any religion in the region at the time. That said, from the gameplay perspective, Khazaria establishes a major issue in the West Asian portion of the map in that its existence frequently results in the entirety of West Asia being dominated by Khazarite Judaism before long. In the 867 start, they're an effectively unrivaled military power with a tribal leader following an organized faith surrounded on three sides by unorganized faiths; there's no one with the strength and motive to take them out unless the Byzantines or Abassids do exceptionally well, the game's mechanics for tribal rulers make it extremely easy for them to absorb their weaker neighbors, and the game's mechanics for organized vs. unorganized faiths makes it extremely easy for them to then convert everyone they conquer. Despite the fact that the historical record is extremely unclear on how widespread or even present Judaism was in Khazaria, it's not uncommon in CK3 for Khazarites to be one of the largest religions on the map by midgame - as well as usually being the only Jewish faith with any presence on the map at all. In my opinion, Khazaria is by far the strongest evidence that Paradox needs to seriously adjust how tribal/nomadic governments function as well as how faiths are represented in CK3. I personally would love to see the implementation of a "minority population" mechanic to provide a more nuanced view of how religious/ethnic groups were dispersed throughout the world, and I think a revamped Khazaria with a very high religious diversity (as opposed to being solely populated by easily-converted Tengrists) would make for a much more interesting playing field.
So, having looked into it what seems to have happened is this: Orginally the general historical consensus was that the Khazars had an elite Jewish ruling class and how far that spread into society was unknown. In the late 20th century however, scholarship and evidence pointing towards the Khazars having a Jewish population outside of the ruling class prompted anti-Israel and anti-Semitic writers to publish books claiming that the modern Ashkenazi Jewish population came from the Khazars in order to discredit their claims to a Jewish state, as the idea is that they are therefore not descended from Abraham and cannot be truly Jewish because of this. This is an obviously ridiculous stretch of the evidence, which in reality seems to simply once again point to some Jewish religious influence in the state but to an extent which cannot be fully stated without more evidence. However, because of these writers works, many Jewish and Israeli scholars began writing not only to debunk the idea that the Ashkenazi population decend from the Khazars but also to refute the idea that the Khazars were even Jewish in the first place. This has led to a great range of scholarship on the subject, much of which is heavily biased in one way or the other, and this makes for a really difficult debate now.
@@Gigadoomer13 National Socialism is a failed socialist ideology. National Socialist economics failed, and by 1939 the extreme German budget deficit forced it to go to war to support it's failing socialist system with the resources of other nations. This ideology was also Autarkic, which once again is a stupid idea which once again forced Germany to go to war, leading to the death of tens of millions. The mustache man came up with this stupid ideology which resulted in so many deaths, so yes, he did a lot wrong.
Can you make a similar video about Georgia? There are some mistakes and errors in the game's depiction of the state of the country in 1066, like Bagrat IV being called Bagrat II for some reason.
@@MausOfTheHouse I refered to mistaking Bagrat's numeral from IV to II. They are so incompetent they can't copy right and the dumbest part, it has been unnoticed since release, for all these 3 years. 💀
I want a 24 docuseries on all the various starting leaders and what their historicity is like this! There's so much depth on this game. Thank you for putting up this video!
The history of the Jewish Khazars is indeed true Hasdai Ibn Shaprut was a highly influential diplomat and the Khazars later went to Spain to study Rabbinical Judaism Abraham ibn Daud of Toledo, Spain, in The Book of Tradition (1161): "You will find the communities of Israel spread abroad... as far as Dailam and the river Itil where live Khazar peoples who became proselytes. The Khazar king Joseph sent a letter to Hasdai ibn-Shaprut and informed him that he and all his people followed the rabbinical faith. We have seen descendants of the Khazars in Toledo, students of the wise, and they have told us that the remnant of them is of the rabbinical belief." As for other sources we have Christian of Stavelot, in Expositio in Matthaeum Evangelistam (864): "At the present time we know of no nation under the heavens where Christians do not live. For [Christians are even found] in the lands of Gog and Magog -- who are a Hunnic race and are called Gazari (Khazars)... circumcized and observing all [the laws of] Judaism. The Bulgars, however, who are of the same seven tribes [as the Khazars], are now becoming baptized [into Christianity]." Shaul Stampfer seems to want to combat possible antisemitism by complete rejection but it turns into denial against the tons of evidence Also I actually descend from Jews with Khazarian heritage and not only I but there are other Jews who know their roots one I know has traditions of going back to the Jews who converted the Khazars One key fact to why Kuzari Judaism or Kabarite is a good way to put it is because it takes years to convert to Judiasm so in the process the kingdom was a type of Noahide Judaism. Then Kabars left around the time the Khagan was adopting Rabbinical Judaism. I have lots of other information on the Khazars if interested and the Brother Kevin Allen Brooks has wrote books of the topic.
I dont know that much about religion in khazaria but i found some interesting characters inside of them such as High Chieftain Zachariah of Don Valley which belong to house Ashina. Ashina clan are founders of Göktürk Khaganate and ruled the steppes like some sort of proto-mongol empire.
@@nicetas2344 The Aisin-Gioro are unrelated to the Ashina. The Asen Dynasty of Bulgaria might be related to the Ashina, though this is unlikely. However, the Ashina of the Göktürks and the Ashina of the Khazars are likely one and the same. Irbis, the founder of the Khazar Khanate, is almost certainly Irbis Shegui, a western Göktürk Khagan who lost power and then evidently re-established himself even further west.
Nice vid, would be interesting to see a video about how accurate are different religions and heresies in the game, considering how many of them are there it would make a cool series.
I also believe that most of the Steppes are bound to change if the inevitable Nomad DLC with Tributaries and extrenal Vassals instead of only internal ones comes out. Than the Khanate will get a bit of a debuff. That said the Steppes and the Russian and Finno-Ugric Realms are a lot of guesswork for PDX for the 867 starting date.
@OURO8ORUO Yeah. In CK2 they went even further up norse. Even to Kolguyev Island. But for CK3 they gave up moving that far because this is even more unknown.
I’d love to see a video on the geography of the Levant in Crusader Kings, it would be even more awesome if you could include a comparison to the More Provinces Expanded mod which would allow for a more in depth discussion of the region.
I am no historian, and I wouldn't be able to back up my following thoughts with facts but to my knowledge: We know that state conversions in European Steppe happened mostly top-down, and many times didn't happen completely in a short amount of time. Khazar khaganete was in tension with two powerful entities: Byzantines and Islamic Caliphate, which they utilised Christianity and Islam to their advantage. These two religions also saw tengri(and basically also every other non-abrahamic religion) as inferior. A conversion to Judaism can be explained with trying to increase legitimacy without falling into the sphere of power of the other 2 entities. Steppe lords loved to experiment with religion (don't know why) and also Eurosian Steppe is HUUUGE with multitude of languages, ethnicities, people and such. (Ref. later) Like you said, spicing up the gameplay within imagination is pretty acceptable, considering we have such a lack of information about the eurasian steppe compared to the rest of the world. For the coinage, Moses is the prophet of god in Islamic tradition as well. Now for one of my thoughts about when we talk about Jews in history, it's always like they were "devout, unassimilated, untainted". Couldn't some of them just fade into the society, slowly becoming assimilated, or adhering less and less to their religion and simply converting to the major religion in the area (I know Jewishness is like both a race and a religion but I'm talking from the point of religion). Also Eurasian steppe is an amalgam of culture, I wouldn't be surprised if the steppes could roughen up the edges of its new Jewish populace just like it has done with other people.
As a Turk, we learned that Khazars just "converted" to Judaism via Marriages. Jew is an ethnicity not a religion and if I'm not wrong they're only referred as Jews not Judaists. Khazar Khan's married Jewish women to show cultural acceptence and Jews think Jewishness comes from the mother. So therefore, Khazar Khan's were Jews. This might've effected their look on Judaism and they probably adopted some ideas as in Tengriism theres not any correct way of worship. So, Tengriists just adopted whichever religious practices they found interesting. However, they also kept their own practices. I think Paradox did a great job by basically creating a seperate sect of Judaism which is a mixture of Tengriism and Judaism. Its quite plausable that Khazars would be somewhere in the middle.
The composition of Nomadic empire also not all the same, the ruling clans could call themselves 'Khazars' but many tribes that they ruled over aren't. This is the same case with Golden Horde from the same area hundred years later, the ruling clan could called themselves 'Mongols' and Borjigins but the people they ruled over are diverse such as Tatars, Kipchaks, Turkmen etc.
The sad thing is that in the whole not even once the word Turkic was utilized, despite the fact that the Khazars were Turkic nomads, and the original faith of these nomads was native Turko-Mongol Tengrism
I like how in the turkic world, the most vocal "turkic unity" demagogues are the people who are the least turkic and just have the closest name to the actual ethnic/cultural group. You should stop taking other turkic people's history and attributting it to yourselves, it's like a croatian priding himself in polish history because both ate slavic.
0:15- Alfred is easy, you have amazing stats and inherit Wessex, with 7 fiefs held personally, in the first few years. The first war makes it look hard, until you understand that because of Ck3's war system you lose nothing personally by letting your ally lose.
Oghuz-Yabgu State split from Khazar Khanate. Seljuk was from Oghuz-Yabgu State, he then converted to Islam, gathered men and founded Seljuk Empire. Seljuk Empire is the predecessor of the Sultanate of Rum which is the predecessor of Ottoman Empire. The names of the sons of Seljuk the founder of the Seljuk Empire. 1 - Isrâ'îl (Israel) 2 - Mikâ'îl (Michael) 3 - Mûsâ (Moses) 4 - Yusuf (Joseph) 5 - Yûnus (Jonah) As you can see, he followed Judaism before.
With the very limited context I gather from this video, it seems to me like the Khazars basically grabbed a megaphone and shouted “We aren’t pagans!!!” And everyone was like “are you Jewish?” And they were like “sure!”
I started at the county of Vlad, conquer neighboring counties and duchies to get the Kingdom of Vladimir-Suzdal, expanded more to get the Russian Empire. I was new to the game when Khazaria disintegrated until my vassals continued to expand until I restored Khazaria and established Volga-Ural. I didn't knew there were edicts that limits vassal authority below the tax and levies. It was an entertaining first playthrough.
In the Russian chronicle "The Tale of Bygone Years" there is a moment where Prince Vladimir, a pagan, chose a new religion in order for Rus' to become part of the civilized world. Orthodoxy was proposed by the Greeks, Islam was proposed by the Arabs, and Judaism by the Khazars. (if something is not clear, I'm sorry, I wrote with the help of a translator)
Awesome video! You should also make a video about that random sunni province in the heart of China/Tibet, i researched myself a little bit and it was extremely interesting! Just as the zunism faith of the "afghans" (who as you know, were never a single people)! There's so nuch interesting stuff, and as a historian myself, I love even the mistakes this game makes, because it leads people to understand that history is never clear cut as they suppose! Greetings from Brazil, you won a new subscriber!
Great video! I also think the cultural and religious "non-historical" changes make the game more fun. Good timing also because yesterday I was casually playing with Tengri horselords and my last conquest was the Khazars, converting them to tengrinism... Sorry for them but my empire is unstoppable and wages war ⚔️
Actualy Khazars give name to (or get that name) from Caspian Sea as we Turks call it Hazar Denizi . Also there is a bad thing about represintation of Tutks in the game as Turks have settlements in the game while there should be a nomad system and actualy game have many right things for this system (compared to ck2) . Also I must say there are some counties in game that in Central Asia named "Fort ..." and those forts are Russian fortsmresses builded in 1800s so this is a historical problem.
I bet there will be a nomad DLC, as for CK2. As for place names - in CK2 there was a barony named Jälil. It's is actually a town in modern Tatarstan founded in 1964 and named after a Tatar poet Musa Cälil who died in German captivity.
Unfortunately Nomads were the least played gov type (for whatever reason) in CK2, so it's likely it will be a very long time before we get a Nomads update.
@@CausticSpace still they are powerfull even now as there is a way to play them and get rich while not having to pay for MaA. It is a little nerfed with last update but still Oghuz is one of the best to play in Asia as you can get Bakü and Brysis than raid entire Balkans or even Caucasia after you get enough man and litteraly destroy economy of all entire Eastern Europe by having little counties and using them as a base of operations to raid every single barony.
@@historyinbits another interesting input , my nation still have problem with reading and education , around %60 of Turks never finished high school so old traditions die hard.
Wasn’t it also documented that in the Primary Chronicle of the Kievan Rus, when Vladimir the great was converting, he heard from Catholics of the HRE, Orthodox of the Byzantine Emp, Muslims of the Arab world, and Jews of the Khazar steppe. I know it’s not a credible source, but it may be useful insight into how influential Judaism was on the steppe.
For a video attempting to criticise ck3 for the creative liberties they took when creating the khazars Not Allot of historical refutation was provided. Seemed more like a weird fluffy retelling of history. Would of been worth mentioning the human sacrifice as performed under tengrism continued until the late 1400s in that region and elsewhere.
Great video! There was an apocryphal story that the Khazars were looking to establish a state religion, and invited a priest, an imam, and a rabbi. The priest arriving first, was asked if the king should convert to Islam or Judaism, and responded Judaism if he wasn't going to convert to Christianity. The imam was asked a similar question, should the king convert to Christianity or Judaism, and finally, after having spoken to both the priest and imam and having them both pronounce Judaism as their choice, it must be correct. I have no idea how accurate it is, but it's an interesting footnote, even if it was fabricated, as conversions to solidify diplomatic relations and grant legitimacy did occur (there's even a similar likely-apocryphal story about Vladimir the Great's conversion and hearing out a priest and an imam but rejecting Islam when he realized he wouldn't be able to drink anymore). On the theory the Khazars were the ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews, at the very least the majority of them couldn't be, the Khazars were a turkic people and Ashkenazi Jews predominantly come from a haplogroup that is rare in Central Asia and most of the steppe (it originally comes from the near east, consistent with the history of the Jewish diaspora rather than mass conversion from another group), HOWEVER there were multiple Jewish diasporas, and there are Jewish groups in Central Asia (Bukhara in particular) that flourished along the silk road. While a consolidated, fully converted Jewish nobility in the steppe is questionable, like you said, it's interesting and adds some variety to the game, especially with massive walls of Muslim, Christian and Tengri kingdoms.
The Jews in Central Asia who are also called Bukharan Jews or Bukharian Jews have some Tajik/Pamiri-related ancestry from marrying several local women who converted to Judaism but do not have any Khazar ancestry as far as we can tell. The Bukharian Jewish haplogroups of Central Asian origin include J2b1a2a1b and F1b1. We have been studying their mitochondrial DNA and autosomal DNA in depth. They are paternally descended from Mizrahi Jewish migrants from the west. We should never speak of "the" ancestors of these Jewish groups when there are multiple origins to almost all of them. The same is true of Ashkenazi Jews, who are descended from a mix of many peoples, starting with Judeans, of course, then adding on Berber and Italian and Spanish and German and Slavic and yes even a few Khazarian elements. Again, well studied through DNA, and the Khazar Turkic traces in Ashkenazi Jews are called N9a3a1b1 and A-a1b3a1 on YFull MTree so take a look if you wish. Due to endogamous marriage over many centuries, every single Ashkenazi Jew in east-central Europe and eastern Europe has N9a3a1b1 and A-a1b3a1 somewhere among their ancestors, even though usually not in the direct maternal line.
2:20. You said nomads haven't had more possessions that are possible to be carried on a horse's back. Sorry to disappoint your hatred towards nomads, but vast herds are also in personal possession of nomads (not possession of a tribe or whatever). Also, carts exist, so we can carry our stuff around.
I am not sure if Khazars and Karaites (Quaraites) are related (probably same name translation). But Lithuanian Karaites where invited in late middle ages into Lithuania to be royal bodyguards from the east steps and they were definitely sect of judaism. There community still exists in Lithuania, Trakai.
Lithuanian Karaites and Crimean Karaites are descendants of the ancient Israelites and do not have any Turkic markers. You may wish to read the 2014 article "The Genetics of Crimean Karaites", for example.
So I'm ethnically around 1/3 east european jewish according to those ancestory sites. I was kinda bummed because I wanted atleast some inkling of Khazar to be mentioned. My mom was the first on my jewish side to be white. My uncles etc all have pretty dark skin. The "black russians" which I always assumed were linked to the khazars cause nothing else makes sense. It has nothing to do with slavs so honestly the dna game seems messed up
@@CausticSpace We can quantify this pretty easily. East European Jews tend to be between 4 and 12 percent Slavic and 3 percent Germanic but only 0.5 to 2 percent Turkic, and have many more European haplogroups than Turkic haplogroups. The ones that would have been associated with Khazaria and its neighbor Alania are called A-a1b3a1, N9a3a1b1, and G2a-FGC1093 and were first discussed in the book "The Maternal Genetic Lineages of Ashkenazic Jews" in 2022.
First nitpick, 'Jews lived in the steppes of central Asia.' That is questionable. As an American Jewish archaeologist, as far as I can tell the Jews who interacted with the Khazars lived largely in the old Greek coastal cities East-SE of the Crimea. They were important merchants and middle men for the Khazars but there is little evidence they were a large percentage of the pop inland. Or even a small percentage. For me, I doubt the letter, there is no mention of this in any adjacent country and 50 years later the people of this area were back to a mix of shamanism and Islam, almost like this interlude never happened. An aside, the Human Genome Project found that the large majority of Ashkenazi Jews have the DNA of Greeks and western Anatolians. I mentioned this to my elderly Rabbi a number of years ago, he thought about it and said 'Makes sense, if there was a Jewish revival it was in Athens and Thessalonika in the 8th and 9th century.'
Many nomadic people have semi-permanent settlements where they restock on supplies or sell to merchants their products. Some even left family behind while they took their livestock to greener pastures. These jewish immigrants probably made an important size of the population of these settlements which would become important nodes for trade within kazharian territories.
On the part about the Khazar "connection" to Ashkenazim. It should really be noted that the people who created and spread this "theory" should have 50 quotation marks around the phrase "historians". So-called Khazar theory has never been proposed in any genuine academic setting or format, and exclusively exists in the form of Internet blog posts and openly antisemitic organisations. However there is a Jewish community in Eastern Europe who do possibly have origins in the Khazars, which are the Crimean Jews. They speak a Turkic language (a variant of Tatar) and their practice of Judaism has alot of odd features you don't find commonly in Judaism. However they are neither Ashkenazi nor a large community by any stretch
@@tariver1693 Crimean Karaites are also Jews from Crimean (who are super interesting btw) but their origins is most likely from Greek Jewish (Romaniote) settlers in Crimea. As Karaite Judaism does have very traceable paths of spreading
Wrong on both counts. On the first count, as one example, "It is very likely that Judaized Khazar elements, especially those that had acculturated to the cities, contributed to the subsequently Slavic-speaking Jewish communities of Kievan Rus'. These were ultimately absorbed by Yiddish-speaking Jews entering the Ukraine and Belorussia from Poland and Central Europe." is a quote by the eminent Rutgers University historian Peter B. Golden from his 1992 book on Turkic peoples. On the second count, DNA testing has been done very extensively over the past decade to a level not seen before and it turns out Crimean Karaite Jews have no Turkic DNA at all whereas Ashkenazi Jews inherited the Turkic-associated haplogroups N9a3a1b1 (close to Bashkirs of the Ural Mountains) and A-a1b3a1 (close to Turkmens of Uzbekistan). In addition, the Rabbinical Jews of the Crimea, called Krymchaks, don't have more Turkic DNA than Ashkenazi Jews do. But you thought you had a "gotcha" didn't you?
@@user-jr4kc6lu9q I really don't want to get into arguments in comment sections. But did you actually read both my and your comments? The first part of your comment is saying that some elements of Judaized Khazar culture "likely" got absorbed into the Kievan Rus Jew community (of which numbered in the low dozens of members). "A few dozen people had some Khazar culture elements and these people got absorbed into the Ashkenazi community" is not the same as "All Ashkenazim are descendent of Khazars". For the 2nd part of your comment I really have to ask if you even read my comment? You said that Crimean Karaites have no Turkic DNA like it was a gotcha, but in THIS thread I said that Krym Karaim have nothing to do with Khazars and are most likely descendent from Romaniote (Greek) communities. As for the final part, I'm literally Krymchak, also known as Qarai (Tatar root word). A shit tonne of our food is Turkic in origin and the Ashkenazim around me are clearly of a different minhag. I'm sorry Mr. Wikipedia Anthropologist but spending this much energy trying to debate people on the internet should be backed by atleast 1 worthwhile point. I also didn't even say Krymchaks were descendent of Khazars, I said it is a theory because of some connections between them
@@Ataturkinator You said Karaims and/or Krymchaks "possibly have origins in the Khazars". You didn't state until your reply that you agree that Crimean Karaites are Greek Jewish immigrants to the Crimea, and that is accurate. Your Krymchak community adopted Turkic language, Turkic foods, and Turkic culture from Cumans and from your Crimean Tatar neighbors. Same happened with your Karaite neighbors. There were genetic connections between Krymchaks and Ashkenazim, and between Crimean Karaites and Ashkenazim. Some Krymchaks even had Ashkenazic surnames into the 20th century.
I've literally heard about Khazars more than a decade and a half ago... Claiming they're fake or didn't exist is dishonest or clever-clickbaiting at best... Kudos.
According to the Sam Aronow's Jewish History videos, as far as I know, The Khazar Khaganate was in the brink of disaster and was in desperate search for allies, trying to convert to Islam first to bring the attention of the potential allies to the region. Although we shouldn't question the sincerity of Khagan's conversion, as evidenced by the family names have been entirely replaced by Jewish names at some point, the Khazaria still remains as one of the most misunderstood and ambigious chapters of the Jewish History.
This was a really cool video! I’m always super curious about Khazaria when I play. I will say parts of it were difficult to hear due to the music, but that might just be me. Also, I usually listen to your videos while driving, and then have to skip through the video to read the speech bubble notes after. They are always interesting and informative, but it would be nice if you said them during the video rather than having them in text form. Overall though this channel is great, and obviously you shouldn’t make changes if you don’t want to.
Although "Khazar ancestry of the Ashkenazim" is utter conspiracy theory, the conversion of Khazars to Judaism is not something that could be brushed off under the rugs with such ease, especially by "some guys on the internet" who are not in any means proper historians in anyways, so disparaging such a would be phenomenon requires more mettle than your mere beliefs, since it is *widely accepted by the academia that the Khazar elite at the very least nominally(by declaration) converted* .
How is it anti-Semitic to say modern Ashkenazi Jews could possibly be descendents of the khazars??... Wtf?! The two main people that brought this topic to somewhat mainstream attention are both Israeli Jewish authors..
How tf does this video not mention the first hand and contemporary account of Ahmad ibn Fadlan?? Literally sent by the caliph of the Abbasid dynasty and directly accounts the faith of Judaism as incredibly prevalent and practiced by the great Khagan's - horribly history video, pathetic frankly - perhaps it is debated but this is a pitiful account of history
One of the things I've read recently is the possibility that because early Islam, much like early Christianity, is hard to distinguish from Judaism so there is the possibility that the khazars were some sort of very Jewish Muslim sect that eventually just looked Jewish because it didn't hold onto muslim characteristics.
Highly unlikely. Khazar elite, like any other Turkic polity back then were Tengriist, that fought against Islamic Ummayads for almost a century in religious wars/jihads declared upon them. It seems like some highly oblivious yet typical western(muhricuhn, in quite a probability) pseudo-academician conflated modern Turks(who are a predominantly muslim ethnicity of Turkey), Turkic and muslim (for the sake of "appeal to the occident" argument) and mixed all these terminology in the same pot and came up with such a "thesis".
khazars were originally turkic nomads that's settled northern west of caspian sea, modern day ukraine and southern russia; a descendant group of nomads from the first turkic khaganate which we call 'Göktürk Devleti' (Gokturk State). they existed, so do their traditions and beliefs. they just become differentiated over time, literally adapted the cultural period by changing religion or anything that is significant in that period of time to survive. some forced to exile to west, hungary or other close provinces in the region. the word 'khazar' literally means 'hazar' in turkish. so we call caspian sea, hazar denizi in turkish today. no doubt they were born out from the nearbys of the so-called sea. just like the other nomadic states or tribes such as oghuz khaganate like that they were so engaged with the caspian sea. in a way, it was to provide supplies. it's just sort of a wanted location throughout the history and even today, it applies the same principle all around the world. a universal and fundamental necessity for humankind or any other living life forms to survive in such a world that is based on carbons, water...
>Jewish khans nobody outside of CK3 seems to have ever heard about Typical westerner, lol. This video so superficial and biased that there's no reason to dispute about it's content. Yes, Khazaria implemented not as accurate as it can be (even as it's been in CK2, for example), but your skepticism smacks of bias. There's much more problems and it's different: 1. We have lack of sources for that region and period. 2. It's not a "priority" region for Paradox, so we have very poor display of steppes in game. 3. There's no many mechanics in CK3 for nomads including tributary, nomadic government type, trade routes, etc. CK2 representation of western steppes wasn't the best, but it was much better than we have in CK3. We need time and another "flavour pack" to change it, but there's much more bigger problems of representation of Khazaria than mass Judaism there. But now I see that this channel's history level is about middle school grades' textbook.
I think you might need to check something about your audio, I'm not sure what is causing it but there is a faint high-pitched ringing in this video that gave me a headache so I wasn't able to actually watch
the Kasarian correspondence i remember reading didnt say there were Jewish scholars and synagogues but that the khan was asking that the jews would send some. The Khans letter stated he was hoping to build citys modeled after the neighboring nations.
well in turkish history class we heard about them but yeah there is not much about them we only taught that they ruled a land in northern caucasia and they were the only turkish state that embraced judaism but we know a lot more about avars(pannonian/turkic not the caucasian ones) they lived around 6-8th century which is way before khazars maybe its because khazars isolated themselves in caucasus from christians and muslims maybe thats why we dont know much about them
I'm still waiting for the part where he analyses the way Khazaria was represented in CKIII, because this was just a very big and unnecessary introduction. He conflates "Jewish" and "Judaic".
there is not just speculation we know in history jews migrate to the area its not far fetch to see them take power on the khanate like in Ethiopia since you know they aint getting persecuted or put into ghetto
By the way Judaism of khazar is not really Judaism in game. It's half tengri. Their holy sites are shared at middle east and steppes. They got pagan tolerance tenet too making their religion a symbol. Sure it's still Jewish at core but when you look to it you see stuff that got tengri elements
Ok but you didn't really go into detail about why it would be otherwise. You can't just say the evidence is shoddy without presenting any alternative evidence.
Great video! I personally believe that it's rather a problem of game mechanics. I think that tengri nomads should be allowed religious syncretism, just as they did in real life. So Khazars would be all tengri, but they would be uniqe because their syncretised faith would be judaism (and perhaps lowers the cost of conversion in game terms). Similarly you would have manichean, nestorian and sunni syncretism on the steppe, where it would be appropriate. Also, what about the Karaites? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Karaites I met with one of Polish Karaites (they are called Karaims here) and they explained that their roots might be a bit mythical and non-historical, yet their ties to Khazars are real, since theit mother tongue is turkic, and has ties to the Khazar language. Therefore I believe that the Jewish communities were real and what is debatable is how widespread and influencial they were (just how You explained in the video). I hope that there will be a nomad update which changes the way their borders work, and perhaps changes tengrism so that it works how I explained, this way the whole Khaganate might be tengrii, but with a uniqe twist.
The Karaites who claim to be of Turkic origin are lying. Their Turkic language isn't the Khazarian type and their Judaism isn't the Khazar type either. DNA also disproves their claim. The study "The Genetic Signatures of East European Karaites" / "The Genetics of Crimean Karaites" shows that they carry some paternal haplogroups that Rabbinical Jewish populations have, such as L-PAGES00116, but don't even have one lineage of Turkic origin. Karaites who live in Israel today admit they have partial Israelite roots.
@@user-jr4kc6lu9q Thank You for your response! I wasn't aware of the study You mentioned, however I would assume that You are correct here. That would make sense, since these Karaites could simply use this claim as a National myth, without real evidence behind it. Well that invalidates a part of my comment, but the the rest stays the same. A Tengri faith with syncretism mechanics would be fun and I Hope in future patches nomads will be improved. Thanks again, for Your response
Descendants of the Jewish-Oghur Turkic Khazars continued to flourish in the area though, eventually being Kipchakified (a different sub branch of Turkic peoples.) through the centuries. They lived in Crimea up until the great “Sürgün” (deportation) of Turkic peoples into the deserts of Central Asia under the orders of Stalin. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krymchaks en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Karaites en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars
What version of the game is this? This one seems to be very out of date, before "Fate of Iberia" DLC for sure. The reason I'm asking is because in my game the Khazar Jewish faith is called "Kuzarite". When I typed it in Google it showed me a book called "Kuzari" written centuries after the collapse of the Khazaria
If we take the coin as the only salient piece of evidence; it could be the result of syncretism between the local religion and judaism and islam, rather than a full conversion.
Why are DNA tests illegal in Israel?? Because when the tests are done you will probably see they are Not of semitic origin mostly but of european descent.
There are 2 type of tests. Genetic test and "genetic test". Other one will find "Jewish DNA", something only Hitler claimed to exist before Israel was founded.
Sounds goofy. Ashkenazis are European Jews yes, up to 50% euro dna but they still have Jewish dna, let alone other Jewish tribes that weren't whitewashed
A lot of primary sources are missing. There are a few coins, a few graves, some texts and that's it. Here one can never make a significant and absolute statement. But what is interesting is that the Jewish influences still exist in some archiological finds. If only an unbelievably small part of Danish history were preserved, then there is a high probability that not a single fragment would bear witness to Jewish life. Therefore I assume that the Jews must have been influential within the Khazar Empire, otherwise they would have left nothing.
We are aware some people in the comments have raised the link between the Khazar-Ashkenazi theory and modern anti-semitic rhetoric. In this video we aimed to debunk this theory without giving the time of day to those who might be motivated by antisemitism in their debate. In hindsight perhaps we should have done so, to highlight the pseudo-history and racism in their argument.
As always, thanks for such a fantastic response to our video! If you wish to discuss the topic with us further please join the HiB discord, link in description!
" we noticed that people started noticing that israel has no claim to be a nation because they arent even people of israel but what is modern day Ukraine, which also has a Jewish president and is furthering globalist Zionism as an israel 2.0 "
@George Floyd Dude anti-semitism exist
What is antisemitism? Is noticing Jewish behaviour throughout history since the Iron age hate? What about the many isms and ists, do you know "racist" was invented by JEWISH Leon Trotsky, with intent for non Whites to weaponise it against Whites, and to stop White people from identifying with their own race? What about who funded the Bolshevik Revolution? Wall Street Jews. What about the federal reserve? 1913, founded by JEWS, all of the central banks in the world all owned by Jews or shabbath goys.
@George Floyd Judeo-deicide and Blood Libel are literally anti-semitism.
@George Floyd Aren't Palestinians and Arabs Semites? Do they have immunity like the Jews in Europe and America?
I remember hearing a story is that Khazaria wanted to convert to a religion, so the khan got a Muslim, a Priest and a Jew. When the khan asked the Muslim “if I didn’t convert to Islam, which of the other two would you want me to convert too?” The Muslim responded “Jew”, he asked the Christian the same question and he gave the same answer. Thus the khan converted to Judaism.
Did he ask the same question to the jew?
@@Ch-ew9tm i mean it would 2-1 so i don't think it matters
@@lovelyhomeboy1584 still would be interesting to know what he would say as a runner up in case it didn't work out
Was it just a regular jew? Not a rabbi? He just got some random dude lol.
From what I heard he didn't get a Jewish representative. He was just so annoyed by the Muslim qadi and the Orthodox priest screaming at eachother he kicked them out and sent a letter to the nearest rabbi demanding he show up at court and circumcise his nobles.
My dad was a historian, and I remember that he once told me that the Khazars converted to Judaism since they were in the buffer zone between Christianity and Islam, they not only didn't want to be indirectly subservient to any of the two biggest religion but also keep trading with both, but didn't want to be pagans because pegans are hated and treated as savages whilst at least Judaism is an abrahamic religion and there were already many jews living there. Cheers! Great content. Of course, for now, it is a theory that can't be proven until we find archaeological evidence.
I'm pretty sure this is the popular consensus when it comes to the Khazars, as I had learned something similar at school.
Thank you for sharing, that theory does sound possible
To add to this, there actually were numerous archeological digs in the area that uncovered many Jewish artifacts from the Khazars.
Unfortunately, those digs were conducted by the Soviet Union, which wasn't too keen on the idea of a Jewish power raiding their ancestors. The archeological sites were flooded, and the artifacts destroyed or lost.
There's actually was an old obscure documentary about the Jewish presence in the region (which I unfortunately do not know the name of off hand), which included a segment showcasing a small warehouse filled to the brim with said artifacts. Unfortunately it's likely that none of them survived, a true loss to history. 😢
@@jesterslight yeesh. It’s thinks like this that make me wonder just how much history and technology we lost because someone or something decided “fuck you in particular” to a group of people.
@@jesterslight fascinating! Thank you!
My first CK 3 game was in Russia (Novgorod, I saw online that it's an "easy" run") and I always wondered why the big Turkic country next to me was Jewish.
Interesting thing about Khazaria , there is a theory that Seljuks (yeah that Seljuks) came from a Khazarian family and later became part of Oghuz so it is an interesting theory but still it have little evidince (just like every theory on Seljuk families origin)
@@muratonuryilmaz5385That is very interesting and it could make sense since they might have moved down the black sea onto Anatolia and West Asia.
@@h3nder no they moved to Aral Region for some reasone in this theory as Seljuks found their Empire after they migrated from Oghuz lands around Aral Sea as we know first days of the Seljuk (The man they named their family after) use Jend as his own base of operations and later most of the Seljuks moved to Khorasan after his death
@@muratonuryilmaz5385 I see, interesting.
@@h3nder Bro thinks Seljukia formed in West Asia.💀 It's common knowledge it formed between the Aral and Atrek, modern western Turkmenistan.
It's a shame that paradox removed the 769 start because I find Saxony and the ruler Widukind very interesting back in ck2
He has a fascinating story as well!
I assume it's not "removed" but reserved for later development. Especially in the new UI there is an awful lot of empty space around the two starting dates ;)
@@mortache If I remember right, they were essentially confirmed as removed a *long* time ago. That's not to say Paradox can't change their minds and add them at a later date anyway, but so far as I'm aware they're genuinely removed as of now.
@@DonFlufflesPrime I highly disagree. Maybe we won't get the sliding "every years in history" setting or the dozens of bookmarks from CK2, but the main bookmarks will definitely be there. You think they're gonna skip out on Charlemagne? And there's an awful lot of "empty space" between 1200s and the end date of 1453. Then there's Richard the goddamn Lionheart and Saladin
@@mortache Oh no I agree that it makes total sense for them to add it, but I believe I read something about them saying those dates wouldn't be added, at least a while back. I'm unsure whether they meant it wouldn't be added at release (which is probable) but the way I understood it, they were essentially stating that they wouldn't be adding those dates.
Since nomads had no clear borders in a way that is implemented in games, and nomads in game automatically convert territory to their religion it isn't hard to figure out why it's hard to make a much smaller jewish faith while still having jewish characters being nomadic. This goes back to CK2 by the way.
CK2 didnt even have a unique form of judaism for the khazar like CK3 does
The idea that "nomads had no clear borders" is heavily questionned by many historians nowadays. The whole idea of nomads just wandering where they want is probably not very realistic. It's more likely that each nomadic tribe had its land, quite well known and delimited, with a summer and a winter pasture. Grazing on another tribe's pasture could mean war.
At least, that's modern historians opinion on Mongol era. I don't know Xth century eurasian steppe that much.
nomads absolutely did have borders and it's a weird map-gamer exclusive overcorrection to claim that they didn't
a lot of pastoral north american tribes operated on the basis of summer-winter land rotation on pre-scouted and well known pastures that would pretty much be their "borders" and it's rather likely that "old world" nomads operated in the exact same way except on a larger scale
@@alioshax7797 Having a territory and having borders are two very different things. Animals have territories, but they absolutely do not have borders.
This is actually incorrect as chimpanzees fought a "war" over territory between two rival chimpanzee communities. The concept of war (and thus a line separating "us" and "them", i.e. borders, if you stretch the meaning) predates humanity@@Saufs0ldat
Edit: Gombe Chimpanzee War, 1974-1978
Fun & historically plausible > 100% historically accuracy
That would make sense if Paradox didn't make historical games.
Maybe
to be honest you can't be 100% historically accurat, there is a lot of history that can't be proven to an accurate degree and there will always be something to nitpick.
I agree. Historical accuracy is cool but as long as it is plausible and fun, well it's a game, not a history book.
The worse part is that it's a canard invented by people who simply didn't want to accept that the Ashkenazi came from either Europe or the Levant. So they claimed that they must have come from the Tartar lands.
How this canard ended up in a Paradox game is quite shocking to me.
Speaking about characters that caught your eye for me it has to be the neighboring Jarl Dyre 'the Stranger' of Könugarðr who is a Genius. A game with him when you try to conquer Khazaria is aways fun.
This dude is actually made up too. The "Tale of Bygone Years" by Nestor says that Rurik sent his two boyars called Askold and Dyre (name is actually pronounced like Deer) to pillage Constantinople, but in the process of doing so, since Kiev was located conveniently right on their path, they conquered and ruled it as co-rulers. After the fail in Constantinople Askold and Dyre ruled Kiev until Rurik's successor, Oleg aka Helgi 'the Seer' didn't decide one day that Kiev suits him better and then took the city, brutally slaying both. The problem is that there is no way to portray co-ruling in this game, which is why instead of Askold and Dyre PDX placed a guy called Dyre from house Askold
@@anobstinatecephalopod4605 There is a theory that indeed it was one person and Paradox went with it:
"It seems that in Old East Slavic it was originally "askold Dir" and not "Askold i Dir" as it is known from the Primary Chronicle. The word askold or oskold is derived from Old Norse óskyldr meaning strange, so there was probably a ruler of Kiev called Dir by the Slavs and the Varangians called him something like "óskyldr Dyri"-stranger Dir. The Russian Varangians later forgot the meaning of óskyldr so Nestor wrote about two rulers of Kiev-about Askold and Dir."
@@tariver1693 The main argument in favour that Dyr was a single person is that in the whole Chronicle, Askold and Dyr were never mentioned seperetly. In every mention, the Chronicle always goes "Askold and Dyr did that" and "Askold and Dyr did this", implying that they were a single entity. And as you've already mentioned, óskyldr is not a real scandinavian name, so it might have been a title. The counterargument to this is that Askold was burried seperetly from Dyr according to the Chronicle, yet archeologists couldn't find any remains of either Askold or Dyr in those places, which makes the whole existance of both of them rather questionable.
@@starless267 to be honest, the credibility of Nestor is lacking, especially when we speak about pre-christian Rus. The thing is, the guy goes all for memes when talking about pagans, and doesn't even want to hide it; if I remember correctly, he described some slavic tribes as being incestuous, rakish and cannibalistic - until they accepted the light of Christ that is. He goes as far as naming the sole reason why Askold and Dyre failed in Constantinople: in his words, pagans were very successful at first, leaving Basileus no other choice but to pray to the God, who was so pissed at them for slaying and robbing good christians, that he conjured the storm that only damaged heathens. Not surprising, considering the guy was a monk.
I did that one time! I slowly built up my development and men-at-arms, and waited until they got a sucky emporer and kept getting bombarded by rebellious vassals and lost most of their army surpressing them. Went straight from count to emporer, it was crazy! Luckily I'd had Dyre rack up Diplo lifestyles, so he befriended most of his powerful vassals pretty quickly, though we did lose a couple duchies to independence wars...
Kinda random but just wanted to point out all this "kh" in khazar, khan, khatun etc. comes from a mix-up in russian. Russian have x (kh) instead of "h" so they write "xan" instead of "han" or "kağan"(pronounced kaan) which gets romanized as "khan". You can see khazars were actually Hazars both in Turkic and Persian sources, even caspian sea is named hazar sea in both languages.
pronouncing kağan as kaan is something innovative to anatolian turkish
Hi, i thought its worth mentioning, but the half nomadic magyars next to the Khazars used a runic writting called in our language as "rovásírás" (which translate to "carved writting"). The magyars for a while were vassals of the Khazars (before the time period CK 3 covers), so it can be debated whether its actually invented by the Khazars or the Magyars... The lack of written documents also can be explained in this regard: the Magyars wrote things down by carving it into wood (a rather bad way to preserve historical records, but for a nomadic ppl. it worked perfectly). To put it bluntly, all the records are just root away with the passage of time. The very fact to the hungarian runic alphabet is survived is purely because the magyars later christianized and adopted the use of paper (while also having remote enough areas where the latin alphabet is not became the norm).
My personal take is, the jewish religion is very likely adopted as a "state religion" to easy trade with both byzantine and the arab world without beeing viewed by either side as "enemy" (and act more like a middleman). Its actually not that much out of the realm of posibility, 1 century later the Magyar Confederacy headed by Géza gonna do the same with Christianity (adopting christianity both for the Confederacy and himself in name only, while continue practicing the magyar pagan religion - its done by him due political considerations, namely to please the Holy Roman Empire and prevent he's ppl. to face the same fate as many other nomadic ppl. who settled the Carpathian Basin) The jewish faith very likely fulfilled asimilar role in the Khazar Khanate, nobody (or just very few) actually practiced, but anyone who chose to practice it instead of the Tengri religion was treated no differently. It also explain why coinage may show jewish influence, because its one of the best way to show its the state religion without actually practicing it by anyone. At least thats what i can speculate about it based on what the Magyars went though and how they handled things.
Very interesting take!
Tengri seni korusun.
What's your views on the Khazari-Ashkenazi theory, which posits that a large percentage of the modern day Ashkenazi are of Khazar descent, which would make them converts to the religion of Judaism and not actual descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. (also making their claim to the land of Israel illegitimate)
I think the title is a bit harsh 😅
We don't really have a lot of details about them and paradox might got some details wrong , but that doesn't mean the khazars were fake and didn't exist
Clickbait
Make a nomadic government in ck3 and then it will be way more accurate than the current khazars
Bet the guys are Jewish and hence they felt such insecure about a historical fact. May they like it or not, the Khazar elite, at least nominally "converted" to Judaism. Their sincerity or how acknowledged they were is debatable, but it is a historical consensus that they had converted.
I've seeing some historians say that one of the Khazar leaders wanted to convert to an Abrahamic religion, presumably to improve trade and associated relations. He reportedly invited priests from Islamic, Christian, and Jewish faiths to his court in order to inform him of their religions so that he could make a decision. Eventually he chose to convert to Judaism.
I don't recall where the evidence of this story came from. Some foreign writer outside the Khaganate, IIRC. It could easily have been a tall tale, by foreigners of the time, to explain why there was a period of Jewish influence in the steppe. I believe the same story also says that khagante didn't last terribly long though.
Similar to the Kieran rus, which is interesting
Funnily enough I actually learned about this in my college courses; the two primary sources we read discussing the origins of the Khazars were Ibn Fadlans, “risāla”, and Mas’ūdī’s “The Meadow of Gold and Mines of Precious Gems”. Both dated to the early 10th century, and written by Arabic authors.
This story comes from Khazar Correspondence that is mentioned in the video. From Wikipedia:
After this, several generations passed until a certain King arose whose name was Bulan. He was a wise and God-fearing man, trusting in his Creator with all his heart. He expelled the wizards and idolaters from the land and took refuge in the shadow of his wings ... After this his fame was spread broadcast. The king of the Byzantines and the Arabs who had heard of him sent their envoys and ambassadors with great riches and many great presents to the King as well as some of their wise men with the object of converting him to their own religion. [The Byzantines and Arabs hoped to stop the raids of the Khazars by converting them and later make them allies through shared faith.]
But the King-may his soul be bound up in the bundle of life [a standard burial phrase for Jews] With the Lord his God-being wise, sent for a learned Israelite. the King searched, inquired, and investigated carefully and brought the sages together that they might argue about their respective religions. Each of them refuted, however, the arguments of his opponent so that they could not agree. When the King saw this he said to them: "Go home, but return to me on the third day…"
On the third day he called all the sages together and said to them. "Speak and argue with one another and make clear to me which is the best religion." They began to dispute with one another without arriving at any results until the King said to the Christian priest "What do you think? Of the religion of the Jews and the Muslims, which is to be preferred?" The priest answered: "The religion of the Israelites is better than that of the Muslims."
The King then asked the qadi: "What do you say? Is the religion of the Israelites, or that of the Christians preferable?" The qadi answered: "The religion of the Israelites is preferable."
Upon this the King said: "If this is so, you both have admitted with your own mouths that the religion of the Israelites is better Wherefore, trusting in the mercies of God and the power of the Almighty, I choose the religion of Israel, that is, the religion of Abraham. If that God in whom I trust, and in the shadow of whose wings I find refuge, will aid me, He can give me without labor the money, the gold, and the silver which you have promised me. As for you all, go now in peace to your land."
If we are being honest, much of history could easily be fabrication because we simply rely on the idea that many of our primary sources are telling the truth.
There is no telling how many smear pieces, propaganda pieces, and outright lies form the backbone of what we think is a historical account of X leader or country.
We simply can't question the accounts of judaism in the khanate because we just don't have much left from them.
Can you make an England 867 one soon?
In two weeks :D
@@historyinbits Cheers!
@@historyinbits I’d be curious to know if your research yields anything interesting about the migration of peoples from England to the Black Sea known as “New England”… I’ve seen some about that but I haven’t thoroughly researched it. Perhaps it would be interesting for your vid!
i seen one before it basically the story Alfred the great
I definitely appreciate the point about Paradox occasionally choosing gameplay value over historical accuracy and the fact that some things are simply impossible to find accurate information on - I don't think, barring a miracle, that we'll ever truly know the state of Judaism or any religion in the region at the time.
That said, from the gameplay perspective, Khazaria establishes a major issue in the West Asian portion of the map in that its existence frequently results in the entirety of West Asia being dominated by Khazarite Judaism before long. In the 867 start, they're an effectively unrivaled military power with a tribal leader following an organized faith surrounded on three sides by unorganized faiths; there's no one with the strength and motive to take them out unless the Byzantines or Abassids do exceptionally well, the game's mechanics for tribal rulers make it extremely easy for them to absorb their weaker neighbors, and the game's mechanics for organized vs. unorganized faiths makes it extremely easy for them to then convert everyone they conquer. Despite the fact that the historical record is extremely unclear on how widespread or even present Judaism was in Khazaria, it's not uncommon in CK3 for Khazarites to be one of the largest religions on the map by midgame - as well as usually being the only Jewish faith with any presence on the map at all.
In my opinion, Khazaria is by far the strongest evidence that Paradox needs to seriously adjust how tribal/nomadic governments function as well as how faiths are represented in CK3. I personally would love to see the implementation of a "minority population" mechanic to provide a more nuanced view of how religious/ethnic groups were dispersed throughout the world, and I think a revamped Khazaria with a very high religious diversity (as opposed to being solely populated by easily-converted Tengrists) would make for a much more interesting playing field.
What’s the point if you aren’t going to tell the truth?
Sabeteen Frankists 😂
Sabeteen Frankists 😂
So, having looked into it what seems to have happened is this: Orginally the general historical consensus was that the Khazars had an elite Jewish ruling class and how far that spread into society was unknown. In the late 20th century however, scholarship and evidence pointing towards the Khazars having a Jewish population outside of the ruling class prompted anti-Israel and anti-Semitic writers to publish books claiming that the modern Ashkenazi Jewish population came from the Khazars in order to discredit their claims to a Jewish state, as the idea is that they are therefore not descended from Abraham and cannot be truly Jewish because of this. This is an obviously ridiculous stretch of the evidence, which in reality seems to simply once again point to some Jewish religious influence in the state but to an extent which cannot be fully stated without more evidence. However, because of these writers works, many Jewish and Israeli scholars began writing not only to debunk the idea that the Ashkenazi population decend from the Khazars but also to refute the idea that the Khazars were even Jewish in the first place.
This has led to a great range of scholarship on the subject, much of which is heavily biased in one way or the other, and this makes for a really difficult debate now.
Mustache man did nothing wrong watch Europa the last battle.
@@Gigadoomer13 IMustache man was a soycialist, so he definitely did do a lot wrong
@@Gigadoomer13 National Socialism is a failed socialist ideology. National Socialist economics failed, and by 1939 the extreme German budget deficit forced it to go to war to support it's failing socialist system with the resources of other nations. This ideology was also Autarkic, which once again is a stupid idea which once again forced Germany to go to war, leading to the death of tens of millions. The mustache man came up with this stupid ideology which resulted in so many deaths, so yes, he did a lot wrong.
@@Gigadoomer13 By Nazi logic, Nazism have failed. You lost dummy.
@@CausticSpace Porsche, IG Farben, and etc were literally Nazi
Can you make a similar video about Georgia? There are some mistakes and errors in the game's depiction of the state of the country in 1066, like Bagrat IV being called Bagrat II for some reason.
Good idea, might do that :)
@@historyinbits Thanks!!!
@@MausOfTheHouse I understand making things up where they miss, but how can Paradox be so incompetent?
@@genovayork2468 They're competent, but sometimes have to change history for gameplay's sake.
@@MausOfTheHouse I refered to mistaking Bagrat's numeral from IV to II. They are so incompetent they can't copy right and the dumbest part, it has been unnoticed since release, for all these 3 years. 💀
I want a 24 docuseries on all the various starting leaders and what their historicity is like this! There's so much depth on this game. Thank you for putting up this video!
The history of the Jewish Khazars is indeed true Hasdai Ibn Shaprut was a highly influential diplomat and the Khazars later went to Spain to study Rabbinical Judaism
Abraham ibn Daud of Toledo, Spain, in The Book of Tradition (1161):
"You will find the communities of Israel spread abroad... as far as Dailam and the river Itil where live Khazar peoples who became proselytes. The Khazar king Joseph sent a letter to Hasdai ibn-Shaprut and informed him that he and all his people followed the rabbinical faith. We have seen descendants of the Khazars in Toledo, students of the wise, and they have told us that the remnant of them is of the rabbinical belief."
As for other sources we have
Christian of Stavelot, in Expositio in Matthaeum Evangelistam (864):
"At the present time we know of no nation under the heavens where Christians do not live. For [Christians are even found] in the lands of Gog and Magog -- who are a Hunnic race and are called Gazari (Khazars)... circumcized and observing all [the laws of] Judaism. The Bulgars, however, who are of the same seven tribes [as the Khazars], are now becoming baptized [into Christianity]."
Shaul Stampfer seems to want to combat possible antisemitism by complete rejection but it turns into denial against the tons of evidence
Also I actually descend from Jews with Khazarian heritage and not only I but there are other Jews who know their roots one I know has traditions of going back to the Jews who converted the Khazars
One key fact to why Kuzari Judaism or Kabarite is a good way to put it is because it takes years to convert to Judiasm so in the process the kingdom was a type of Noahide Judaism. Then Kabars left around the time the Khagan was adopting Rabbinical Judaism.
I have lots of other information on the Khazars if interested and the Brother Kevin Allen Brooks has wrote books of the topic.
I dont know that much about religion in khazaria but i found some interesting characters inside of them such as High Chieftain Zachariah of Don Valley which belong to house Ashina. Ashina clan are founders of Göktürk Khaganate and ruled the steppes like some sort of proto-mongol empire.
Some historians suggest that members of Ashina dynasty ruled Khazaria.
Very interesting!
Is the ashina the same with the ashin gyoro? The one who would give rise to some korean warlords, second bulgarian empire and even manchu people
Or the ashina of japan?
@@nicetas2344 The Aisin-Gioro are unrelated to the Ashina. The Asen Dynasty of Bulgaria might be related to the Ashina, though this is unlikely.
However, the Ashina of the Göktürks and the Ashina of the Khazars are likely one and the same. Irbis, the founder of the Khazar Khanate, is almost certainly Irbis Shegui, a western Göktürk Khagan who lost power and then evidently re-established himself even further west.
Nice vid, would be interesting to see a video about how accurate are different religions and heresies in the game, considering how many of them are there it would make a cool series.
We’ll look into it!
I also believe that most of the Steppes are bound to change if the inevitable Nomad DLC with Tributaries and extrenal Vassals instead of only internal ones comes out. Than the Khanate will get a bit of a debuff. That said the Steppes and the Russian and Finno-Ugric Realms are a lot of guesswork for PDX for the 867 starting date.
I think you’re right!
half the fun of ck is the guesswork, right? right?
i am not the only weirdo here???
@OURO8ORUO Yeah. In CK2 they went even further up norse. Even to Kolguyev Island. But for CK3 they gave up moving that far because this is even more unknown.
Nobody outside of ck3 knows about the jewish khazars? You must not hang around questionable corners of the internet
I’d love to see a video on the geography of the Levant in Crusader Kings, it would be even more awesome if you could include a comparison to the More Provinces Expanded mod which would allow for a more in depth discussion of the region.
We’ll look into it!
I am no historian, and I wouldn't be able to back up my following thoughts with facts but to my knowledge:
We know that state conversions in European Steppe happened mostly top-down, and many times didn't happen completely in a short amount of time.
Khazar khaganete was in tension with two powerful entities: Byzantines and Islamic Caliphate, which they utilised Christianity and Islam to their advantage. These two religions also saw tengri(and basically also every other non-abrahamic religion) as inferior. A conversion to Judaism can be explained with trying to increase legitimacy without falling into the sphere of power of the other 2 entities.
Steppe lords loved to experiment with religion (don't know why) and also Eurosian Steppe is HUUUGE with multitude of languages, ethnicities, people and such. (Ref. later)
Like you said, spicing up the gameplay within imagination is pretty acceptable, considering we have such a lack of information about the eurasian steppe compared to the rest of the world.
For the coinage, Moses is the prophet of god in Islamic tradition as well.
Now for one of my thoughts about when we talk about Jews in history, it's always like they were "devout, unassimilated, untainted". Couldn't some of them just fade into the society, slowly becoming assimilated, or adhering less and less to their religion and simply converting to the major religion in the area (I know Jewishness is like both a race and a religion but I'm talking from the point of religion). Also Eurasian steppe is an amalgam of culture, I wouldn't be surprised if the steppes could roughen up the edges of its new Jewish populace just like it has done with other people.
Interesting idea
As a Turk, we learned that Khazars just "converted" to Judaism via Marriages. Jew is an ethnicity not a religion and if I'm not wrong they're only referred as Jews not Judaists. Khazar Khan's married Jewish women to show cultural acceptence and Jews think Jewishness comes from the mother. So therefore, Khazar Khan's were Jews. This might've effected their look on Judaism and they probably adopted some ideas as in Tengriism theres not any correct way of worship. So, Tengriists just adopted whichever religious practices they found interesting. However, they also kept their own practices. I think Paradox did a great job by basically creating a seperate sect of Judaism which is a mixture of Tengriism and Judaism. Its quite plausable that Khazars would be somewhere in the middle.
Absolutely love your content guys.
Thank you very much, happy you like it :)
The composition of Nomadic empire also not all the same, the ruling clans could call themselves 'Khazars' but many tribes that they ruled over aren't. This is the same case with Golden Horde from the same area hundred years later, the ruling clan could called themselves 'Mongols' and Borjigins but the people they ruled over are diverse such as Tatars, Kipchaks, Turkmen etc.
The sad thing is that in the whole not even once the word Turkic was utilized, despite the fact that the Khazars were Turkic nomads, and the original faith of these nomads was native Turko-Mongol Tengrism
people can go to mars and you turk fanboys will claim the martians are turkic lmao
Why does that matter?
@@gojira4036 because their people weren't even jewish
@@ANJROTmania Who ever mentioned Martians?
I like how in the turkic world, the most vocal "turkic unity" demagogues are the people who are the least turkic and just have the closest name to the actual ethnic/cultural group. You should stop taking other turkic people's history and attributting it to yourselves, it's like a croatian priding himself in polish history because both ate slavic.
Why do they keep getting kicked out? 😕
Love these videos, keep them coming.
Thank you very much!
Thanks for sorting it out as best you could. Always wondered about this accuracy, and figured it was a LOT of speculation.
:)
0:15- Alfred is easy, you have amazing stats and inherit Wessex, with 7 fiefs held personally, in the first few years. The first war makes it look hard, until you understand that because of Ck3's war system you lose nothing personally by letting your ally lose.
Oghuz-Yabgu State split from Khazar Khanate. Seljuk was from Oghuz-Yabgu State, he then converted to Islam, gathered men and founded Seljuk Empire. Seljuk Empire is the predecessor of the Sultanate of Rum which is the predecessor of Ottoman Empire.
The names of the sons of Seljuk the founder of the Seljuk Empire.
1 - Isrâ'îl (Israel)
2 - Mikâ'îl (Michael)
3 - Mûsâ (Moses)
4 - Yusuf (Joseph)
5 - Yûnus (Jonah)
As you can see, he followed Judaism before.
With the very limited context I gather from this video, it seems to me like the Khazars basically grabbed a megaphone and shouted “We aren’t pagans!!!” And everyone was like “are you Jewish?” And they were like “sure!”
I started at the county of Vlad, conquer neighboring counties and duchies to get the Kingdom of Vladimir-Suzdal, expanded more to get the Russian Empire. I was new to the game when Khazaria disintegrated until my vassals continued to expand until I restored Khazaria and established Volga-Ural. I didn't knew there were edicts that limits vassal authority below the tax and levies. It was an entertaining first playthrough.
I love that you used Borodin’s central Asian music for this one. A great choice!
4:05 love to hear the Borodin "In the Steppes of Central Asia" here. Such a good bit of music
In the Russian chronicle "The Tale of Bygone Years" there is a moment where Prince Vladimir, a pagan, chose a new religion in order for Rus' to become part of the civilized world. Orthodoxy was proposed by the Greeks, Islam was proposed by the Arabs, and Judaism by the Khazars. (if something is not clear, I'm sorry, I wrote with the help of a translator)
Very interesting
I remember he decided against Islam cos he wouldn't be allowed to drink hahah
*Ukrainian chronicle
@@redy55 no
@@ИльмирВалеев-п8г yes
"Nestor the Chronicler, Born c.1056
Kiev, Kievan Rus’"
Awesome video! You should also make a video about that random sunni province in the heart of China/Tibet, i researched myself a little bit and it was extremely interesting! Just as the zunism faith of the "afghans" (who as you know, were never a single people)! There's so nuch interesting stuff, and as a historian myself, I love even the mistakes this game makes, because it leads people to understand that history is never clear cut as they suppose! Greetings from Brazil, you won a new subscriber!
Thank you for this great input, it’s a great point to make that history just often can be ambiguous!
Great video! I also think the cultural and religious "non-historical" changes make the game more fun.
Good timing also because yesterday I was casually playing with Tengri horselords and my last conquest was the Khazars, converting them to tengrinism... Sorry for them but my empire is unstoppable and wages war ⚔️
Very cool! :D
Glad the comments are still on lol
This is a PDX game man it’d take a real doozy to be controversial
@@Atlasvibranium you clearly haven't seen the HOI4 community
So far it’s been okay haha
Why are the subtitles in the beginning so big? Is that a bug on my end?
Actualy Khazars give name to (or get that name) from Caspian Sea as we Turks call it Hazar Denizi . Also there is a bad thing about represintation of Tutks in the game as Turks have settlements in the game while there should be a nomad system and actualy game have many right things for this system (compared to ck2) . Also I must say there are some counties in game that in Central Asia named "Fort ..." and those forts are Russian fortsmresses builded in 1800s so this is a historical problem.
I bet there will be a nomad DLC, as for CK2.
As for place names - in CK2 there was a barony named Jälil. It's is actually a town in modern Tatarstan founded in 1964 and named after a Tatar poet Musa Cälil who died in German captivity.
Unfortunately Nomads were the least played gov type (for whatever reason) in CK2, so it's likely it will be a very long time before we get a Nomads update.
@@CausticSpace still they are powerfull even now as there is a way to play them and get rich while not having to pay for MaA. It is a little nerfed with last update but still Oghuz is one of the best to play in Asia as you can get Bakü and Brysis than raid entire Balkans or even Caucasia after you get enough man and litteraly destroy economy of all entire Eastern Europe by having little counties and using them as a base of operations to raid every single barony.
Thank you for this input, very interesting and good point!
@@historyinbits another interesting input , my nation still have problem with reading and education , around %60 of Turks never finished high school so old traditions die hard.
Wasn’t it also documented that in the Primary Chronicle of the Kievan Rus, when Vladimir the great was converting, he heard from Catholics of the HRE, Orthodox of the Byzantine Emp, Muslims of the Arab world, and Jews of the Khazar steppe. I know it’s not a credible source, but it may be useful insight into how influential Judaism was on the steppe.
For a video attempting to criticise ck3 for the creative liberties they took when creating the khazars
Not Allot of historical refutation was provided.
Seemed more like a weird fluffy retelling of history.
Would of been worth mentioning the human sacrifice as performed under tengrism continued until the late 1400s in that region and elsewhere.
A well put together video
love this series, great job
the idea of horseback riding step jews is so awesome i don't care if its historically accurate
Its dope that its actually factual too!
Thank you for educating us...
yo whats the music at 6:00?
In the Steppes of Central Asia by Borodin :)
@@historyinbits yeah man it sounded hella familiar, i played it years ago in orchestra
Great video!
There was an apocryphal story that the Khazars were looking to establish a state religion, and invited a priest, an imam, and a rabbi. The priest arriving first, was asked if the king should convert to Islam or Judaism, and responded Judaism if he wasn't going to convert to Christianity. The imam was asked a similar question, should the king convert to Christianity or Judaism, and finally, after having spoken to both the priest and imam and having them both pronounce Judaism as their choice, it must be correct.
I have no idea how accurate it is, but it's an interesting footnote, even if it was fabricated, as conversions to solidify diplomatic relations and grant legitimacy did occur (there's even a similar likely-apocryphal story about Vladimir the Great's conversion and hearing out a priest and an imam but rejecting Islam when he realized he wouldn't be able to drink anymore).
On the theory the Khazars were the ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews, at the very least the majority of them couldn't be, the Khazars were a turkic people and Ashkenazi Jews predominantly come from a haplogroup that is rare in Central Asia and most of the steppe (it originally comes from the near east, consistent with the history of the Jewish diaspora rather than mass conversion from another group), HOWEVER there were multiple Jewish diasporas, and there are Jewish groups in Central Asia (Bukhara in particular) that flourished along the silk road.
While a consolidated, fully converted Jewish nobility in the steppe is questionable, like you said, it's interesting and adds some variety to the game, especially with massive walls of Muslim, Christian and Tengri kingdoms.
Interesting story!
The Jews in Central Asia who are also called Bukharan Jews or Bukharian Jews have some Tajik/Pamiri-related ancestry from marrying several local women who converted to Judaism but do not have any Khazar ancestry as far as we can tell. The Bukharian Jewish haplogroups of Central Asian origin include J2b1a2a1b and F1b1. We have been studying their mitochondrial DNA and autosomal DNA in depth. They are paternally descended from Mizrahi Jewish migrants from the west.
We should never speak of "the" ancestors of these Jewish groups when there are multiple origins to almost all of them. The same is true of Ashkenazi Jews, who are descended from a mix of many peoples, starting with Judeans, of course, then adding on Berber and Italian and Spanish and German and Slavic and yes even a few Khazarian elements. Again, well studied through DNA, and the Khazar Turkic traces in Ashkenazi Jews are called N9a3a1b1 and A-a1b3a1 on YFull MTree so take a look if you wish. Due to endogamous marriage over many centuries, every single Ashkenazi Jew in east-central Europe and eastern Europe has N9a3a1b1 and A-a1b3a1 somewhere among their ancestors, even though usually not in the direct maternal line.
2:20. You said nomads haven't had more possessions that are possible to be carried on a horse's back. Sorry to disappoint your hatred towards nomads, but vast herds are also in personal possession of nomads (not possession of a tribe or whatever). Also, carts exist, so we can carry our stuff around.
Present day Ukraine is where the ancient Khazaria was located.
"No not that one, we would hate to disable comments on this video" I love that line so much.
Edit: What is the music in this video?
In the Steppes of Central Asia by Borodin :)
Great video as always!
Thank you!
I am not sure if Khazars and Karaites (Quaraites) are related (probably same name translation). But Lithuanian Karaites where invited in late middle ages into Lithuania to be royal bodyguards from the east steps and they were definitely sect of judaism. There community still exists in Lithuania, Trakai.
Thank you for this input!
Lithuanian Karaites and Crimean Karaites are descendants of the ancient Israelites and do not have any Turkic markers. You may wish to read the 2014 article "The Genetics of Crimean Karaites", for example.
@@user-jr4kc6lu9q they connection with kypcak turks.
So I'm ethnically around 1/3 east european jewish according to those ancestory sites. I was kinda bummed because I wanted atleast some inkling of Khazar to be mentioned. My mom was the first on my jewish side to be white. My uncles etc all have pretty dark skin. The "black russians" which I always assumed were linked to the khazars cause nothing else makes sense. It has nothing to do with slavs so honestly the dna game seems messed up
Very interesting, thanks for sharing!
I'm sure there are quite a few eastern european jews with Khazar descendency, but the vast majority are more germanic/slavic.
@@CausticSpace We can quantify this pretty easily. East European Jews tend to be between 4 and 12 percent Slavic and 3 percent Germanic but only 0.5 to 2 percent Turkic, and have many more European haplogroups than Turkic haplogroups. The ones that would have been associated with Khazaria and its neighbor Alania are called A-a1b3a1, N9a3a1b1, and G2a-FGC1093 and were first discussed in the book "The Maternal Genetic Lineages of Ashkenazic Jews" in 2022.
First nitpick, 'Jews lived in the steppes of central Asia.' That is questionable. As an American Jewish archaeologist, as far as I can tell the Jews who interacted with the Khazars lived largely in the old Greek coastal cities East-SE of the Crimea. They were important merchants and middle men for the Khazars but there is little evidence they were a large percentage of the pop inland. Or even a small percentage.
For me, I doubt the letter, there is no mention of this in any adjacent country and 50 years later the people of this area were back to a mix of shamanism and Islam, almost like this interlude never happened.
An aside, the Human Genome Project found that the large majority of Ashkenazi Jews have the DNA of Greeks and western Anatolians. I mentioned this to my elderly Rabbi a number of years ago, he thought about it and said 'Makes sense, if there was a Jewish revival it was in Athens and Thessalonika in the 8th and 9th century.'
Many nomadic people have semi-permanent settlements where they restock on supplies or sell to merchants their products. Some even left family behind while they took their livestock to greener pastures.
These jewish immigrants probably made an important size of the population of these settlements which would become important nodes for trade within kazharian territories.
Good point!
Interesting content. Will check your channel out from here on
Thank you, glad you like it :)
Which ones own or control everything?
On the part about the Khazar "connection" to Ashkenazim. It should really be noted that the people who created and spread this "theory" should have 50 quotation marks around the phrase "historians". So-called Khazar theory has never been proposed in any genuine academic setting or format, and exclusively exists in the form of Internet blog posts and openly antisemitic organisations. However there is a Jewish community in Eastern Europe who do possibly have origins in the Khazars, which are the Crimean Jews. They speak a Turkic language (a variant of Tatar) and their practice of Judaism has alot of odd features you don't find commonly in Judaism. However they are neither Ashkenazi nor a large community by any stretch
These people are called Crimean Karaites.
@@tariver1693 Crimean Karaites are also Jews from Crimean (who are super interesting btw) but their origins is most likely from Greek Jewish (Romaniote) settlers in Crimea. As Karaite Judaism does have very traceable paths of spreading
Wrong on both counts. On the first count, as one example, "It is very likely that Judaized Khazar elements, especially those that had acculturated to the cities, contributed to the subsequently Slavic-speaking Jewish communities of Kievan Rus'. These were ultimately absorbed by Yiddish-speaking Jews entering the Ukraine and Belorussia from Poland and Central Europe." is a quote by the eminent Rutgers University historian Peter B. Golden from his 1992 book on Turkic peoples. On the second count, DNA testing has been done very extensively over the past decade to a level not seen before and it turns out Crimean Karaite Jews have no Turkic DNA at all whereas Ashkenazi Jews inherited the Turkic-associated haplogroups N9a3a1b1 (close to Bashkirs of the Ural Mountains) and A-a1b3a1 (close to Turkmens of Uzbekistan). In addition, the Rabbinical Jews of the Crimea, called Krymchaks, don't have more Turkic DNA than Ashkenazi Jews do. But you thought you had a "gotcha" didn't you?
@@user-jr4kc6lu9q I really don't want to get into arguments in comment sections. But did you actually read both my and your comments? The first part of your comment is saying that some elements of Judaized Khazar culture "likely" got absorbed into the Kievan Rus Jew community (of which numbered in the low dozens of members). "A few dozen people had some Khazar culture elements and these people got absorbed into the Ashkenazi community" is not the same as "All Ashkenazim are descendent of Khazars". For the 2nd part of your comment I really have to ask if you even read my comment? You said that Crimean Karaites have no Turkic DNA like it was a gotcha, but in THIS thread I said that Krym Karaim have nothing to do with Khazars and are most likely descendent from Romaniote (Greek) communities. As for the final part, I'm literally Krymchak, also known as Qarai (Tatar root word). A shit tonne of our food is Turkic in origin and the Ashkenazim around me are clearly of a different minhag. I'm sorry Mr. Wikipedia Anthropologist but spending this much energy trying to debate people on the internet should be backed by atleast 1 worthwhile point. I also didn't even say Krymchaks were descendent of Khazars, I said it is a theory because of some connections between them
@@Ataturkinator You said Karaims and/or Krymchaks "possibly have origins in the Khazars". You didn't state until your reply that you agree that Crimean Karaites are Greek Jewish immigrants to the Crimea, and that is accurate. Your Krymchak community adopted Turkic language, Turkic foods, and Turkic culture from Cumans and from your Crimean Tatar neighbors. Same happened with your Karaite neighbors. There were genetic connections between Krymchaks and Ashkenazim, and between Crimean Karaites and Ashkenazim. Some Krymchaks even had Ashkenazic surnames into the 20th century.
I've literally heard about Khazars more than a decade and a half ago... Claiming they're fake or didn't exist is dishonest or clever-clickbaiting at best... Kudos.
According to the Sam Aronow's Jewish History videos, as far as I know, The Khazar Khaganate was in the brink of disaster and was in desperate search for allies, trying to convert to Islam first to bring the attention of the potential allies to the region. Although we shouldn't question the sincerity of Khagan's conversion, as evidenced by the family names have been entirely replaced by Jewish names at some point, the Khazaria still remains as one of the most misunderstood and ambigious chapters of the Jewish History.
This was a really cool video! I’m always super curious about Khazaria when I play. I will say parts of it were difficult to hear due to the music, but that might just be me. Also, I usually listen to your videos while driving, and then have to skip through the video to read the speech bubble notes after. They are always interesting and informative, but it would be nice if you said them during the video rather than having them in text form. Overall though this channel is great, and obviously you shouldn’t make changes if you don’t want to.
Thank you very much for the feedback!
There are contemporary Bulgarian sources, claiming the Khazars were Jewish.
Very interesting, thank you for bringing this to our attention. Do you happen to have a link you can share?
.
Although "Khazar ancestry of the Ashkenazim" is utter conspiracy theory, the conversion of Khazars to Judaism is not something that could be brushed off under the rugs with such ease, especially by "some guys on the internet" who are not in any means proper historians in anyways, so disparaging such a would be phenomenon requires more mettle than your mere beliefs, since it is *widely accepted by the academia that the Khazar elite at the very least nominally(by declaration) converted* .
Origin of Askhenezis Jews is unknown, thinking that Jewish state in Eastern Europe had nothing to with them is just stupid.
How is it anti-Semitic to say modern Ashkenazi Jews could possibly be descendents of the khazars??... Wtf?!
The two main people that brought this topic to somewhat mainstream attention are both Israeli Jewish authors..
How tf does this video not mention the first hand and contemporary account of Ahmad ibn Fadlan?? Literally sent by the caliph of the Abbasid dynasty and directly accounts the faith of Judaism as incredibly prevalent and practiced by the great Khagan's - horribly history video, pathetic frankly - perhaps it is debated but this is a pitiful account of history
But but but that's ANTI SEMITIC!!!1
Can you talk about the Seljuks or Abbasids? There isn't that many videos talking about them.
We will at some point :)
One of the things I've read recently is the possibility that because early Islam, much like early Christianity, is hard to distinguish from Judaism so there is the possibility that the khazars were some sort of very Jewish Muslim sect that eventually just looked Jewish because it didn't hold onto muslim characteristics.
Highly unlikely. Khazar elite, like any other Turkic polity back then were Tengriist, that fought against Islamic Ummayads for almost a century in religious wars/jihads declared upon them. It seems like some highly oblivious yet typical western(muhricuhn, in quite a probability) pseudo-academician conflated modern Turks(who are a predominantly muslim ethnicity of Turkey), Turkic and muslim (for the sake of "appeal to the occident" argument) and mixed all these terminology in the same pot and came up with such a "thesis".
may I ask what soundtrack was used for the video?
I love you guys, all your videos are great
I’d love to see a Göktürk revival decision,with the nomad dlc.
apparently the ruling dynasty of the Gokturks are vassals of the Khazars so that would be pretty cool
@@CausticSpace I know but currently he and the rest of the turkic rulers lack any depth. Playing tall is torturing and map painting isn’t fun at all.
Very good idea!
@@CausticSpace Nope, it is vice versa. Khazar elite highly likely were offshoots of the Ashina.
@@doyouwantthetotalwar cool but the game says otherwise and thats what im talking about
I just started a book called "200 years together" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn that's covering some of this topic.
based
On the day of the next dev diary too!
According to Ibn Rustah the Isha, commanding officers, and people of influence were Jewish and everyone else followed ‘the religion of the Turks’
excellent video
khazars were originally turkic nomads that's settled northern west of caspian sea, modern day ukraine and southern russia; a descendant group of nomads from the first turkic khaganate which we call 'Göktürk Devleti' (Gokturk State). they existed, so do their traditions and beliefs. they just become differentiated over time, literally adapted the cultural period by changing religion or anything that is significant in that period of time to survive. some forced to exile to west, hungary or other close provinces in the region. the word 'khazar' literally means 'hazar' in turkish. so we call caspian sea, hazar denizi in turkish today. no doubt they were born out from the nearbys of the so-called sea. just like the other nomadic states or tribes such as oghuz khaganate like that they were so engaged with the caspian sea. in a way, it was to provide supplies. it's just sort of a wanted location throughout the history and even today, it applies the same principle all around the world. a universal and fundamental necessity for humankind or any other living life forms to survive in such a world that is based on carbons, water...
babe wake up, new history in bits just came out.
:D
It brings a whole new meaning to the whole," pack up your suitcase were moving again."
I wonder why
Loving the Borodin piece in the background
>Jewish khans nobody outside of CK3 seems to have ever heard about
Typical westerner, lol.
This video so superficial and biased that there's no reason to dispute about it's content. Yes, Khazaria implemented not as accurate as it can be (even as it's been in CK2, for example), but your skepticism smacks of bias. There's much more problems and it's different:
1. We have lack of sources for that region and period.
2. It's not a "priority" region for Paradox, so we have very poor display of steppes in game.
3. There's no many mechanics in CK3 for nomads including tributary, nomadic government type, trade routes, etc.
CK2 representation of western steppes wasn't the best, but it was much better than we have in CK3. We need time and another "flavour pack" to change it, but there's much more bigger problems of representation of Khazaria than mass Judaism there. But now I see that this channel's history level is about middle school grades' textbook.
I think you might need to check something about your audio, I'm not sure what is causing it but there is a faint high-pitched ringing in this video that gave me a headache so I wasn't able to actually watch
Thanks for the feedback! This was one of the first videos we started producing actually, so it is not as streamlined yet
the Kasarian correspondence i remember reading didnt say there were Jewish scholars and synagogues but that the khan was asking that the jews would send some. The Khans letter stated he was hoping to build citys modeled after the neighboring nations.
well in turkish history class we heard about them but yeah there is not much about them we only taught that they ruled a land in northern caucasia and they were the only turkish state that embraced judaism but we know a lot more about avars(pannonian/turkic not the caucasian ones) they lived around 6-8th century which is way before khazars maybe its because khazars isolated themselves in caucasus from christians and muslims maybe thats why we dont know much about them
I'm still waiting for the part where he analyses the way Khazaria was represented in CKIII, because this was just a very big and unnecessary introduction. He conflates "Jewish" and "Judaic".
there is not just speculation we know in history jews migrate to the area its not far fetch to see them take power on the khanate like in Ethiopia since you know they aint getting persecuted or put into ghetto
They made it up, that's it
@@agnusdei7697 Then where did all this historical evidence of Jewish influence in the region come from?
By the way Judaism of khazar is not really Judaism in game. It's half tengri. Their holy sites are shared at middle east and steppes. They got pagan tolerance tenet too making their religion a symbol. Sure it's still Jewish at core but when you look to it you see stuff that got tengri elements
I wonder if paradox picked the 867 start date due to what happened in Byzantium in the same year
That is a really interesting question, I always thought it had to do with the events in Northumberland that year.
Ok but you didn't really go into detail about why it would be otherwise.
You can't just say the evidence is shoddy without presenting any alternative evidence.
Khazar named History in Bits cries out in pain as he strikes you.
It is mentioned in the video that khazars are kabarite in game but i remember them being kuzarite ? Did paradox patch it ?
Great video!
I personally believe that it's rather a problem of game mechanics. I think that tengri nomads should be allowed religious syncretism, just as they did in real life. So Khazars would be all tengri, but they would be uniqe because their syncretised faith would be judaism (and perhaps lowers the cost of conversion in game terms). Similarly you would have manichean, nestorian and sunni syncretism on the steppe, where it would be appropriate.
Also, what about the Karaites? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Karaites I met with one of Polish Karaites (they are called Karaims here) and they explained that their roots might be a bit mythical and non-historical, yet their ties to Khazars are real, since theit mother tongue is turkic, and has ties to the Khazar language.
Therefore I believe that the Jewish communities were real and what is debatable is how widespread and influencial they were (just how You explained in the video). I hope that there will be a nomad update which changes the way their borders work, and perhaps changes tengrism so that it works how I explained, this way the whole Khaganate might be tengrii, but with a uniqe twist.
The Karaites who claim to be of Turkic origin are lying. Their Turkic language isn't the Khazarian type and their Judaism isn't the Khazar type either. DNA also disproves their claim. The study "The Genetic Signatures of East European Karaites" / "The Genetics of Crimean Karaites" shows that they carry some paternal haplogroups that Rabbinical Jewish populations have, such as L-PAGES00116, but don't even have one lineage of Turkic origin. Karaites who live in Israel today admit they have partial Israelite roots.
@@user-jr4kc6lu9q Thank You for your response! I wasn't aware of the study You mentioned, however I would assume that You are correct here.
That would make sense, since these Karaites could simply use this claim as a National myth, without real evidence behind it.
Well that invalidates a part of my comment, but the the rest stays the same. A Tengri faith with syncretism mechanics would be fun and I Hope in future patches nomads will be improved.
Thanks again, for Your response
EU4 has Tengri syncretism
Descendants of the Jewish-Oghur Turkic Khazars continued to flourish in the area though, eventually being Kipchakified (a different sub branch of Turkic peoples.) through the centuries. They lived in Crimea up until the great “Sürgün” (deportation) of Turkic peoples into the deserts of Central Asia under the orders of Stalin.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krymchaks
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Karaites
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars
Very interesting!
What version of the game is this? This one seems to be very out of date, before "Fate of Iberia" DLC for sure. The reason I'm asking is because in my game the Khazar Jewish faith is called "Kuzarite". When I typed it in Google it showed me a book called "Kuzari" written centuries after the collapse of the Khazaria
The Kuzari is a Jewish apologetic text it uses the history of the Khazars conversion as a backdrop to explain Judaism
If we take the coin as the only salient piece of evidence; it could be the result of syncretism between the local religion and judaism and islam, rather than a full conversion.
Why are DNA tests illegal in Israel?? Because when the tests are done you will probably see they are Not of semitic origin mostly but of european descent.
Oy vey!
There are 2 type of tests. Genetic test and "genetic test". Other one will find "Jewish DNA", something only Hitler claimed to exist before Israel was founded.
Sounds goofy. Ashkenazis are European Jews yes, up to 50% euro dna but they still have Jewish dna, let alone other Jewish tribes that weren't whitewashed
About 80 percent of the Israeli Jewish population are are Sabras born in Israel.
A lot of primary sources are missing. There are a few coins, a few graves, some texts and that's it. Here one can never make a significant and absolute statement. But what is interesting is that the Jewish influences still exist in some archiological finds. If only an unbelievably small part of Danish history were preserved, then there is a high probability that not a single fragment would bear witness to Jewish life. Therefore I assume that the Jews must have been influential within the Khazar Empire, otherwise they would have left nothing.
Millions of eastern european jews are a living evidence of the story’s authenticity
The forefathers of the Cabal
Errm, Khazaria was not in Central Asia (the modern -stans), it was in the far south-eastern corner of Europe.
Exactly central asia are the stans and the russian part after ural mountains and before yakutia