What Replaced the FIA's "groups"?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 เม.ย. 2024
- The FIA's "letter" groups were famous, but now they're no more. Or are they? Where have Group B, Group A, and Group C gone? Time to find out.
This video contains content from Passats de Canto, FIA WRC, FIA WEC, 19Bozzy92, and other sources used under fair use.
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so you're telling me GT3 is the crab of the racing world, everything just ends up evolving into it
Yes!
you've got an amazing channel mate, if you just polish your audio editing a bit - music is a bit too loud at times both when you're speaking and not (not all times mind you), and the transitions are a bit sharp. other than that, great informative and interesting videos. hope you blow up :)
The loud music is purpose work. Just enjoy it.
@@km6832 I get it but it could be integrated a bit better imo
@@mscd9676 yea it could. Some videos i have to replay a part 3 times to hear what he said. I like the concept just needs to polish it up a bit.
@@km6832 To me is a bit annoying. I have it adjusted to hear what he is saying, and then out of nowhere I hear music at double of the volume. I have to turn down the sound and then up again when he explains something, sometimes having to turn back to hear something that I didnt got.
Please, put the music at the same volume as your voice when you are not speaking, so I don't have to adjust the sound all the time
@@mscd9676I also noticed that, the easy solutions is just fade in and out the audio instead of clipping it straight, very easy and makes all the difference
The only reason as to why GT3 is the cultural successor to Group A, is because GT racing back in the 80's and early 90's was pretty much not a thing due to the catastrophic failure that Group B was for GT racing, so Group A was almost an accidental success in road racing. So, it was pretty much from Touring Cars, straight to Prototypes, with not GT cars in the middle. Actual successors would really be like TCR cars, given they're the top Touring Cars.
GT racing was only there because prototype endurance cars were gone and there was a void to fill. Early GT cars were basically slightly modified sports cars before things went south.
The Group A basically turned into a lot of classes nowadays
TCR might be the official modern counterpart to group A, but in spirit they are no where close as they're FWD hatchbacks. a much closer modern equivalent are the V8 supercars, originally being born directly out of group A regulations, featuring high powered RWD V8 sedans, and nowadays evolving in to RWD V8 coupes.
Awesome video, though it hurts that you didn't mention Rallycross at all. To a degree Group B has found a refuge in Rallycross, as the short tracks can offer safety standards rally stages never will, and therefore their high speeds were less problematic. Also, modern RX cars with their 600hp engines could be seen as yet another spiritual successor to Group B, alongside modern WRC
+ many Group B cars were used in rallycross after Group B disappeared, for example the MG Metro 6R4 or the Ford RS200 competed in rallycross
Rallycross sucks
There's a theory of evolution that all animal forms eventually evolve into a crab, in motorsport every racing class evolves into GT3
Group A also had another successor : Supertouring
And group 5 had Class 1 touring car as it successor
And Super Touring's successor is TCR and NGTC (I'd say TCR more because it's an international ruleset as opposed to NGTC only being used by the BTCC)
Class 1 actually fits pretty well you’re right
@@albert_gyorgy Super Touring's successor would have been Super2000, then TC1 then TCR. Notably all of those rulesets are dead, I think there's one championship in the US that still runs TCR and they pop up in the NLS. I would argue there is no modern successor to Group A touring cars internationally, with V8 Supercars being the closest.
@@andrewcarter9649 I never said TCR was directly after Super Touring, but it's the universal touring car formula that's currently being used the most. And it's alive and well, maybe not in the US, but in Europe and Asia it's a popular class for national and regional championships. There's even a TCR World Tour, a championship that incudes rounds from many regional TCR championships around the world.
@@albert_gyorgy I'm struggling to find results for many series past 2022, it seems quite a few of them have folded, or have so little interest no one is logging results for them online.
This youtube channel feels like a pub for us enthusiasts who appreciate every form of motorsport we still have around, I just love the vibes man. Thanks for putting your back into these videos!
6:30 this is surprised that Group A (for rallying) actually still "active" as WRC Group R. Never thought about it. Thank you for the information.
Very nice video 👍
Wouldn't Group N's "successor" be Rally3? I understand Rally3s went through a lot more modifications than Group N, but on paper, they seem similar.
Edit: I also love that message at the end and can't help but agree. Many more people should appreciate all the work and engineering that went through modern day motorsports.
Somewhat. Rally3 is to replace cars from the N/R4 class, but group N is still active as it's used in homologation for other classes, so since it's still active, it can't have a successor, but Rally3 is indeed the successor to actual group N cars, but to me, Rally3 doesn't have the pure showroom spec to it.
@@FailedRacersif we go by showroom spec angle then stuff like Rally4/Rally5 filled that to a point.
In circuit racing, I'd very much argue for GT4 being Group N's successor. You can race them in as many or even more places than GT3.
Would be more like rally4 or 5
@@spidouche44 Rally4/5 are FWD, whereas a lot of Group N cars are AWD from the factory.
4:41 Oh hey, I've used that same song in my channel trailer.
Neat video, did always kind of seem like the spirit of Group C, Group B, and GT1 never really went away, even if the cars these days aren't quite as ridiculous.
This story needs a flowchart/timeline.
Group 5 was on occasion used in rallying, but usually not allowed to score points. A video about Group 5 rallying would actually suit your channel quite well. Also while you're at it a video about Group 1 to 6/7 would be fitting as well, even though that would be a bit of a mess to make I guess.
As a fellow Motorsports enthusiast, I too would replace my family, house, and pet with GT3 cars if I was allowed to
never stop making these videos, i absolutely love them
Today every somewhat is a peak of a series becomes GT3, like DTM Class 1, the F1 of Touring Cars, in 2022 became another branch of GT3 supremacy
Thank you very much. With all the Group B Rally videos, I've been waiting a long time for this.
I'd have argued that LMP1H was Group C's spiritual/cultural successor due to the variety of technologies and approaches to how the cars were made, how fast they were and, of course, how popular the category was with the fans.
I somewhat understand what you’re saying about Group A touring cars morphing into GT3 in spirit but from a technical point Group A touring spun off into different directions post ‘93. In Australia it became the V8 Supercars as well as Super Touring as did the BTCC with super touring. Germany went the DTM route before failing in the late ‘90’s and was resurrected again in the early 2000’s. Super Touring while it became the next generation after Group A lasted from the early 90’s until 2002 when the Australian Super Touring championship folded and ended Australia’s equivalent of “The Split” as well as the Swedish Touring Car Championship changing regulations.
In Japan, Group A was replaced by JGTC, which became SuperGT, so it is fully a successor to Group A, not just in spirit via GT300.
@@Dartingleopard That’s true about Japan to a degree. The JTCC did continue until the late 90’s with Supertouring regulations but you are right regarding Super GT as the big name teams did move over to the GT500 class for the JGTC.
I love how complicated Motorsport history can be.
@TheLockbeard Yep, the JTCC also succeeded Group A. It was another split like in Australia, but a bit different.
I think the spiritual sucessor is TCR. GT3 is omnipresent but Group A is not a gran tourer class
@@miguelcardoso1903 I do agree with that. TCR came about as a lower cost compared to the other touring car formulas such as the WTCC at the time which was seeing costs go the same direction as Supertouring. Even though TCR ticks the boxes of being seen around the world but it doesn't have that same mass audience despite the racing being really good.
Group B mostly replaced Group 4 in both road and rally, although Group 5 was also effectively folded into Group B. I think you needed to make mention of the production car requirements for homologation. Group B required 200 production cars to be built actually a fall from Group 4 which required 500 to be made, but an increase on the 25 needed for Group 5. This fall versus Group 4 in production numbers made it just about financially feasible for manufacturers to build some of the wild base cars for Group B (only Lancia with the Stratos had made a purpose-built Group 4 rally car). Group A require(s)d 2,500 units in a calendar year (with a provision for 500 evolution cars such as the Sierra RS500 and the EVO versions of the Integrale).
The biggest change between the 80's and now is most currently classes (Rally 1, GT3, TCR and hypercar) do away with a significant production number requirement replacing it with a BoP lead rule set which intends to equalize performance. for the production classes at least, that makes it less of a burden on the manufacturers as they don't have to build special cars which were often difficult to sell when new (even if they are highly collectible today).
Also, Group B replaced Group 4. We know this because there was a LOT of Group 4 cars that carried over into Group B like the Opel Ascona, BMW M1 Procar, and Ferrari 208.
Great video mate, really interesting stuff. Keep it up!
Bascially C1 turned into LMP1 and C2 into LMP2 ,i was also confused by the Group 5 BMW M1 when you talked about Group C
Group A turned into Super Touringcars turning into Super 2000 and Super 1600, the WTCC used S2000 until their TC1 Class which failed and turned to TCR. In Rally its the same basically ,besides the Rally P class, there was S2000 and S1600 evolving into todays Rally Classes, R5 is the Successor of S2000 which resulted from Group A.
Group B's successor was planned as the Group S which was scrapped for Group A regulations, still the Concept of Group S was revived with the WRC Specification from 1997 and resulted in todays Rally1 Cars. Group B was also used on Road Racing as example for the FIA GT Cup until they basically turned into IMSA. Group 5 ,the Group B resulted from, was also going to be used in the Japanese Series and IMSA aswell, actually there was a Group B car running in the JGTC Championship, so you could say that IMSA and GT500 kinda succeeded from Group B.
GT3 was basically a Result of the cost expensive GT1 and GT2 cars. The GT Classes got introduced after the Group C failed in 1992. The BPR Series used a GT1 to GT4 System from 1994 to 1996, until it became the FIA GT Championship in 1997 with new GT1 Regulations (which we know from Le Mans) and GT2 (which was basically the GT1 from BPR) , after that championship failed they turned the GT2 into GT1 and openend a new GT2 class, which got scrapped in 2010 before the FIA GT used GT3 cars in 2012 resulting in todays ex BES and BSS (as they change names kinda often)
The GT3 resulted from the old BPR Series which replaced Group C as International Sports Car Championship
We may just have different views to this video, but i personally was very disappointed by this one.
Excellent video. Straight to the point, informative and entertaining. 🔥🔥👍👍👍
Subbed recently love the content!! Keep it up 😊
Dude, awesome Channel. I discovered you a few days ago and have seen almost all your videos now. Your sound quality has also improved so much in such a short time. Keep it up!
For some clarifications :
The original GT1 (1993 - 1998)'s demise wasn't banned due to safety issues, it was due to the lack of manufacturers similar to gen 2 GT1 and LMGTE.
While the LMGTE class had roots in IMSA's GTU class, which would become the GT3 class in 1998 to 1999 in IMSA and regional series (sometimes known as Group GT) before getting into mainstream as Group N-GT before renaming as GT2 and later LMGTE.
Well, Le Mans Hypercar isn't some glorified LMP2s, as this name is more suited towards LMDh, a ruleset that uses LMP2 chassis with bodywork which is the successor for Daytona Prototype (DP) and then Daytona Prototype International (DPi) which were also using LMP2 chassis with bodywork added.
Group A's cultural successor in circuit racing actually has several of them. Besides the GT3, in Touring Car, there was the Class 2 (Supertouring) class in the 1990s until 2000s, before replaced by Super2000 (also used in rallying), before to current TCR class, which are always seen in Touring Car races like GT3 in sports car racing.
For the rally classes, the Rally1 class is the successor of World Rally Car, which was supposed to be based on the scrapped Group S ruleset. Group S was originally planned to replace Group B due to the dangers, but Henri Toivonnen's death had indefinitely killed off all Group B and Group S matters, leaving Group A to be leveled up in WRC.
Very nice video which also covers a very interesting topic. As a piece of advice: In my opinion, you could use a bit more text on screen for example when mentioning certain years or "Group R". You could also use some sort of visualizers when mentioning the FIA or talking about a class' lineage with something like a flowchart. Of course, tons of driving footage is nice to look at, but it doesn't aid the viewer at understanding the solution to the problem you are discussing.
Also: I feel like the EDM/Phonk music you used in the. Background is a bit too busy and distracts from the video
Great video, thanks! The music was a bit too loud at times compared to the speech, maybe take a look at equalizing the audio levels for the next one?
I love your content especially since it sheds lights on those cars that never really quite there!
Exactly we need to enjoy WEC’s renaissance because in 3-4 years most constructors will leave the championship due to lack of performance/finance
This video needs at least 100x more views
Great video. I make the argument though, that Group E does fit better than Rally1 as Group B's spiritual successor in the FIA's group system. Especially Group E1 and E2-SH (silhouette), as Group E2 includes SS and SC aswell, which are aimed at formula cars and prototypes. As Group E, which was introduced in 1990, is based on power to weight-ratio and basically doesn't limit aero (In Group E1, the basic shape of the car has to be maintained, in Group E2 it doesn't) while allowing for huge power and no mandatory spec-parts (except for safety equipment and tires) or completely restricted engine sizes, like Rally1 does, Group E1 and E2-SH cars oftentimes look similar to Group B cars. Group E1/E2-SH cars are mostly used in national and international european hillclimb events (The recent introduction of performance factors through the FIA, and their application is another complicated development though, I won't dive into deeper here) There are some circuit racing series using Group E non-formula/non-prototype cars too, f.e. the DTM trophy.
Btw. Group B circuit racing would be another interesting topic to explore too. I only know of french Súperproduction and the mentioned 80's WSC using Group B regs on circuits. The 288 GTO Evo was a Group B prototype for circuit racing too.
So Well said about BOP in WEC
Great video as always
Yeah we'll get rid of BOP, and all of the manufaturers will go with it. The 2018 WEC was so great, loved watching Toyota being the only team with a real car and the rest with uptuned LMP2s was really just the peak of sportscar racing.
@@alexisborden3191 once again Fia's fault. Toyota shouldn't have been allowed to compete alone. Also there was no BOP in the gold LMP era.
The manufacturers left because of the costs were around €200m/yr compared with €10m/yr now, not the performance differences. Dump BoP keep the cost cap
@@FailedRacers Dumbass, WEC is not cost capped. The costs went down because of things like BOP.
@@FailedRacers There's no cost cap, the rules which include BoP are what keep the costs down. Dump BoP and you'll see those costs go back up.
Lancia Stratos started that fantastic mess with Group B in rally with its double homologation 😏
@14:23. It looks like a Lister Storm. Do one of them please. Nice video by the way
Love it👍
Group B. The cars, the drivers, the crowds. All completely insane. There'll never be anything like it again.
Will you do a vid on Group 5 Super Silhouette? It was the GT cars of the late 70's - late 80's
Im 1:30 minutes in, and gotta say, you’re getting a like just on your music choice 😂
Heres what i personally think about group a touring GT4/TCR these are also seen everywhere and just make more sense as a successor as GT4 cars and to a certain extent TCR Heavily represents their Road Going Counterparts just like Group A did
I'm not so sure. Group A was almost always the top class of touring cars when it raced, and the top GrA drivers were world famous. You can say that about GT3, but I'm not sure GT4 can be described in the same light. In terms of TCR, it's possible that they're homologated through GrA, although I haven't checked, so TCR could potentially quite literally be Group A Touring cars, but again, in the 80s and 90s, Group A was about the big, high powered cars such as the Sierras, Commodores, Skylines etc. TCR cars are a little smaller. TCR is pretty cool, but I wouldn't say it's quite a successor to Group A in terms of its place in motorsports culture, but I'd say the cars themselves are probably more similar in GT4 than GT3, but the culture is different.
@@FailedRacers to be fair the most powerful car was the skyline the only reason the ford Sierra was so powerful was because they was fighting the skyline otherwise looking at all the other cars 300~ hp is the average so take out the outliers and you see a different painted picture mustang 350-400, AE-86 150 hp, Holden Commadore 400 hp, Mercedes Benz 190E Evo II 300 hp(if i remember correctly), M3 290-330 (depending on year) and that's just a minor slice of group a shenanigans
GT3 has all the same marquee events that the Group A cars did so it fits best imo.
Spa 24 was group A
Nurburgring 24 was largely Group A
Bathurst 1000 (now split into the 1000 and the 12hr) was group A
DTM was Group A
British GT is a suitable BTCC Group A equivalent
Macau was Group A
---
I think spec for spec the modern BTCC or the WTCC cars of old were probably closest to group a spec wise
Are you doing the various sound levels on purpose? Great content, HORRIBLE for watching when eating or doing anything as sound level differences are OBNOXIOUS.
Thank you for this informative and well argued video. I definitely agreed with it! 🙂
phonk lets you not only hear words but also feel words
Great video mate! You are really underrated, but when you where about to say the successor to touring cars I was expecting either Class 1 or TCR, but yeah I agree with that it is GT3. That’s still a hot take though
To me, Class 1 is the succesor to the old Gr5 cars, and TCR maybe to lower displacement classes in GrA such as the 1.6l class.
@@FailedRacers fair enough
@@FailedRacers With 2.0l Turbos being the most powerful spec available even on many larger family cars, I think TCR is a successor to more than just the smaller Gr.A classes.
Group N or 'production saloon' racing was huge in the 90s.
We need to replace every racecar regulations with GT3 cars
That’s what it feels like..
And that’s why I absolutely hate GT3 these days, while I loved it in the mid 2000s..
@@rolux4853 Yeah I'm not too happy with GT3 cars replacing DTM silhouette cars but other than that they are cool.
6:33 it would be nice if you could add just the letter R on screen, cause from your pronounciation I was sure that we have Group Ah
From 4:40 to 5:40 is Digital Delight - Free Diskette, since i didnt find it in the description
Kinda surprised that Group S had zero mentioning in the Group B portion of the video
Well yeah, they never competed
I think it would have been worth to mention also a bit of the WRC and FIA manufacturers championshio and how it weent from Grouo B rallly to group A rally and then into WRC category to then become the R1 category we k ow today since a couple years back
I would like to disagree on that group A statment in rally... It could make sense when there was Group R4 with evo and sti and their corresponding group N variants, but if I'm not mistaken I think group A and N were supposed to have the same layout in rally as in road going versions so if a car was 4wd,2wd,Rwd so must have been it's racing version and also group Ns.. How is it that now they are homologated through Gr.A regs? I don't see any 4wd road versions of R5 cars..
12:36 Kind of true kind of not. From 1978-1980 Group 5 cars raced in the “Giro d'Italia automobilistico” which was essentially an event consisting of one giant rally stage. Though I think this event was the only of its kind it’s still a neat little slice of history.
Great video otherwise ❤
You're partially correct, as the Giro d'Italia Automobilistico did feature lots of rally stages - however, it also featured several circuit races, so much so that many crews (at least, those from rich and works teams) fielded specialised circuit racers alongside traditional rally crews. For instance, the 1979 Giro featured a Lancia Beta Montecarlo Gr. 5 whose crew was composed by Walter Rohrl, Christian Geistdorfer and Gilles Villeneuve - which, by the way, could be the coolest racing crew ever.
Music is this video is top notch
Group A Rally would have been the 3rd teir in '87. It would have been Group S,, Group B, and Group A. Group S would have been 600hp, mid-engined, AWD class. Also, I would say modern Rallycross is pretty similar to Group S, minus the mid-engine cars, they tend to have 600+hp. The death of Group B also got rid of Group S before it started.
8:40 assuming you're the blue one it def would've been cleaner if you had left a bit more room to the other guy, there was loads of space on the inside. Not egregious though
2:45 I see why this specific clip from 1994 Le Mans was used
201st!
Great video
I would argue that GT4 is a more true successor to Group A, as the cars are less modified and have closer racing without as much delicate aero work. But Gt3 makes just as much sense. GT4 also goes where GT3 goes, and sometimes beyond. Street courses such as St. Petersburg FL have become less popular with GT3s, who normally would do support races for indy or whatever. Now IMSA just races the GT4s and LMP3s, since they can have close racing despite the walls. For what its worth, the R-GT class for rallying has been won by GT3 cars (997 911 GT3) and less powerful, gt4 style cars (A110 R-GT).
One thing to note about the 911 in R-GT is that it's not an actual GT3 car, but instead is a modification of the GT3 road car, and due to the power to weighy ratio limitations, it's actually significantly less powerful ~350hp. That means it's possible that an unmodified 997 GT3 RS would set faster stage times than the R-GT version.
Possibly TCR too. At least relating to the smaller capacity Group A cars.
Song at 4:45?
Next do "what happened to class 1 touring cars and the TC2000 class (WTCC)"
I'm have something planned about a couple of missing touring car classes. TCR's original name was TC3 is a bit of a clue.
Song at 15:30?
I’ll always be a fan of grN. Hey, it rhymes!
Let me explain: I’m interested in motorsports because, well, I was a male little kid back in the early 70s. I knew my r16GTX from my r16TL. Real sporty cars had standard steel rims, no hubcaps but widened with a welding mask on. No hubcaps was proof of concept, even on a roadgoing Escort Mexico. Yeah! Don’t blame 4yo me, I was a kid.
Ever since I felt connected to roadcars being raced for real. A car you can buy in the shop, and it does well in a race or ralley (notice the -ey there), that’s what it’s all about. Prove that your average client car is good enough, why don’t you? The whole purpose is to entice me into buying your product after all.
Special prototypes don’t work for me. So Mercedes has a facility in England to make F1 cars? So what? It has absolutely nothing to do with the car I might or might not buy. Not interested.
Great work on this one, mate! But in the group A section you mention that the most succesful touring cars were coupés. But what about the Nissan R32 Skyline, Ford Sierra RS500 and Volvo 240T?
These are all Coupés because they have two doors
@@FailedRacers I think it depends on where we draw the line between 2 door saloons and coupés. For example, officially the Volvo 200 series had only one coupé variant...the 262C. And the Sierra was officially a 3/5 door liftback. Love your channel and content! Keep it up💪💪.
I personally don't view "two door saloons" as a thing, I think if the tailgate is sloped it's a coupe, if it's straight down, it's a hatchback, but the Sierra is both. It's all subjective ig
@@FailedRacers You're right. It really is subjective. But I just found this explanation on the Mercedes USA website😅. "The real difference lies in size. According to the Society of Automotive Engineers, a coupe is defined as being a car that has an interior space of less than 33 cubic feet while a sedan is equal to or greater than 33 cubic feet". I didn't know this either😅😅. Maybe that explains why some cars could be homologated as touring cars instead of GT's.
But that would make the big GT3 cars like the Bentley, M4, and the Lexus RC-F "V8 Camry" saloon cars, meaning they'd be more touring cars than GTs
What about touring car group C? Pretty much the top touring car class prior to switching to group A in mid 1980s.
Touring car Group C was a national class rather than a FISA regulated international group
Group A touring cars cultural successors would've been GT4 cars IMO. They were simple, cost effective, and pretty much nearly identical to the stock car, which was the point of Group A.
The TCR cars were closer to the Supertouring successor since it has essentially the same specs
3:45 you probably would say this but LMP1 now become LMH
FIA, how to make a total mess of everything.
5:30
jokes on you, i never had it in fullscreen.
You got the song choice down buddy
8:19 it most likely group a touring car replacement is TCR as that's everywhere
The fonk music is way to loud during the intermission and even makes you more difficult to understand while you're talking.
Imo LMDh regs are "LMP2 on steroids".
2:24 lol
For the successor for Group C, when you say Le Mans Hypercars do you mean the LMH ruleset or the Hypercar class in WEC as it is both LMH and LMDh regulations included under the Hypercar class? I also probably would have mentioned LMDh cars aswell as it is still a successor if you only meant the LMH cars.
On the Hypercar ruleset being glorified LMP2, hopefully that can now change as the BoP of the cars no longer has to deal with the Peugeot 9X8 wingless design. Looking at the BoP figures for Imola, the power to weight ratio are the highest they have been since Spa 2023 and Toyotas is way higher than it was for most of 2022 when the difference between Hypercars and LMP2s was very small.
I mean any car that's able to enter the Le Mans Hyper Car class, so LMH and LMdH
YEEESSS GROUP N WAS SO UNDERRATED I LOVE TRELLES
ok but group A is now TCR, they re everywhere in the world
Try leveling audio or something dude. I can barely hear you speak and than music just blasts at full volume.
Good video, I never really grasped these lineages. Please never put such distracting music behind your voice again
I think TCR is a more appropriate cultural successor to group a touring cars
7:00 - That's not true. Group R cars require group A homologation but they are NOT group A cars. Group A homologation in this meaning relates to road cars, not cars used in the competition. The only time non-specific group A rally could be still called such "technically" was between 1997 and 2001 were for the sake of simplicity, WRC cars were classified as group A8 cars, due to group A cars still being able to participate in WRC's top category. Group A was defined mostly by mechanical relation between road car and race/rally car. "Feature" which forced manufacturers to produce countless legendary models/trims for the road and allowed privateers to compete by upgrading cars bought straight from the dealer.
So for touring cars, there were 2 direct successors to group A - FIA Touring Car Class 1 and FIA Touring Car Class 2 regulations. Class 1 was invention of DTM and natural result of rising costs in late 80's which was supposed to highlight technological advancement of late group A cars and drop technical similarities between road and racecars (one of the worst decisions ever made in motorsports). Class 1 died in 1996 and was "revived" under DTM/GT500 regs in 2010's... Then died again. Class 2, often known as Super Touring, was introduced by BTCC and was total opposite of Class 1. Focus was put on reducing costs and keeping cars somewhat close to road going models (until FIA regulation changes allowed "aero wars" in 1995). Its direct successor was Super/Diesel 2000 and its direct successor were TCR and NGTC. Both NGTC and TCR can be considered successors of group A but neither fully fill the gap - NGTC cars don't pass "road car based" part of group A spirit, as both front and rear subframes are replaced with common tube spaceframes with spec suspension parts. TCR on the other hand is much more aero oriented and doesn't allow RWD to compete. I'd argue that GT4 is more in the spirit of group A with allowed modifications and changes
BTW currently GT car is just defined by number of doors. Touring cars have always been defined by number of seats and production/sales numbers. That's why Jag's V12 Coupe was considered a touring car. In the 90's requirement was added that to be homologated for touring car championships, 2/3 door cars had to share exact side profile silhouette with their 4/5 door equivalents.
For rally it could be argued that Formula 2 kit cars and S1600 cars could be direct successors for FWD group A rally cars, as they were forced to keep quite high mechanical similarities between road car and rally car (which was the goal of group A). Rally 4 would be closest successor when it comes to technical regulations.
Group N in rally has 2 current successors - still going group N using older cars and R1-2/Rally 4-5 classes of today. In touring car racing group N have seen a lot of action in national leagues in countries where budgets for road car racing were more limited. And IMO it could be argued that various "improved production" entry level series around the globe can be refered to as group N successors.
My issue with treating Rally 1 as a successor to group B is lack of homologation requirements for drivetrain or chassis. Group B cars weren't silhouettes - chassis, suspension geometry, aspiration, engine, drivetrain etc. must've been derived from road car. Even with small production numbers it still meant that it was technically possible to buy mid engined, turbocharged 4wd Peugeot 205.
With regard to the rally1 paragraph, each of the rally 1 cars technically do have a road based counter part
Puma ST
Yaris GR
I20 N
But thats its as you said the drive trains and so on arent road derived. And these R1 cars are silohuettes so it sucks
@@km6832 They don't have road based counterparts. They are 100% separate cars without single common element in the chassis and totally different dimensions. Previous WRC class cars also had purpose build separate subframes, suspension, drivetrains etc. but at least still had to use large parts of chassis structure and bodywork from the road car (the original reason behind existence of GR Yaris). Rally1 is pure silhouette design, only shaped to be vaguely similar to the road car (none of the body panels are interchangeable).
@@gameboyterrorysta6307 like i said, technically. The 3 cars are actually the homologation cars for the rally1 cars by the rule book
Nah, Group A Touring became TCR and NGTC
to be fair. i hate GT3 class as its pretty much a "super"car showdown. id probly be a bigger supporter of GT4 or maybe Touring 1 [as a new race category for cars around the 35-70k price range] whats the point of watching supercars when you know they are eventually just the same in the end?
Too bad Rally 1 is so boring car wise. I can't tell the cars apart unless it's a close-up. The great differences in style is something I miss from even 20 years ago.
Group B cars were starting to converge by the end of it. If it had've continued until 1990, they would have all lined like the Ford RS200. Group A brought some variety back as did early WRC, but silhouette cars always tend to converge
I always thought that the LMP675 class was the early LMP2 cars... like, you know, a much smaller engine that does about 450hp(contrary to roughly 570-600hp in the LMP900 class), but with a minimum weight of 675kg, where as the LMP2(before 2017) were about 480-530hp for 900kg... that sounds much better than "LMP675 merged with LMP900 and LMGTP to make LMP1"...
besides, there's an examples that completely debugs the "LMP675 became LMP1 theory": the COurage C65. it started in 2003, where the LMP675 class was about to end with the other two. the car was built with the upcoming 2004 LMP2 regulations in mind. and in 2004, guess what class the car was in? that's right. LMP2. LMP675 = LMP2 proven just wit ha single car...
The idea was that LMP675 was supposed to have equal performance because of the lower weight, whilst LMP2 was a lower performance class compared with LMP1.
@@FailedRacers and yet, the LMP675 was only of equal performance to LMP900 with one single car and in one single championship: Lola-MG EX265 in the ALMS championship. AKA pretty short american tracks. on everywhere else, the LMP675 class was clearly an early LMP2 class
That is correct, but being slower than LMP900 wasn't what the FIA intended, even if it was the result.
@@togera77 The Reynard wasn't too far off either.
What further complicates things is that LMP675 actually contained two rulesets. There were the pukka carbonfibre cars intended to go head to head with LMP900 like the MG-Lola, but then you also had the grandfathered SR2-cars from Grand Am and the FIA Sportsracing Series/World Cup with aluminium chassis, like the Pilbeam or the Lola B2K/40.
:)
I disagree that GrpA's rally equivalent culturally today is GrpR. Since GrpB was banned, GrpA became the top tier rally grp and culturally relevant, so the equivalent today would be for me rally1. Culturally speaking.
Sort of, but I'd say the difference is that Group A wasn't initially intended to be the top class. Plus, next year, "Rally2 +" cars will be allowed to compete which should have similar performance to the New Rally1 cars.
I'm so sorry mate, Group A Touring Cars are 100% TCR cars nowadays and Group B would be FIA Group GT3, no questions asked, Group R-GT/Rally1 in Rallying
Great video, however, I do take exception to the notion that Group B was "banned", it was being discontinued after '86, the only thing that changed was it's successor series, originally scheduled to be Group S for 1987 which was quite similar to what would become the WRC regulations for 1997, instead we got Group A which would remain, so long as you had the correct homologation, through the late 90s through Group A "Evolutions", such as the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. Also GT1 was never banned, it was abandoned by manufacturers because of Mercedes-Benz domination by 1999 and that year's championship for GT1 cars was cancelled, GT1 came back after that in a tweaked form and faded away as interest in the category diminished as GT2 and ultimately GT3 gained traction.
Nah, the touring cars should be the successor to road-going Group A, pedestrian cars for the common man and not expensive tourers. Think BTCC and TCR rather than DTM or GT3.
GT4 is group A
One ☝️
Two
Three, four, five
Everybody in the car, so come on, let's ride
To the liquor store around the corner
The boys say they want some gin and juice
But I really don't wanna
Beer-bust like I had last week
I must stay deep because talk is cheap
I like Angela, Pamela, Sandra and Rita
And as I continue, you know they getting sweeter (uh)
So what can I do? I really beg you, my Lord
To me is flirting is just like a sport
Anything fly, it's all good, let me dump it
Please set in the trumpet
A little bit of Monica in my life
A little bit of Erica by my side
A little bit of Rita's all I need
A little bit of Tina's what I see
A little bit of Sandra in the sun
A little bit of Mary all night long
A little bit of Jessica, here I am
A little bit of you makes me your man (ah)
Mambo Number Five (ah)
Jump up and down and move it all around
Shake your head to the sound
Put your hand on the ground
Take one step left and one step right
One to the front and one to the side
Clap your hand once and clap your hands twice
And if it looks like this then you're doing it right
A little bit of Monica in my life
A little bit of Erica by my side
A little bit of Rita's all I need
A little bit of Tina's what I see
A little bit of Sandra in the sun
A little bit of Mary all night long
A little bit of Jessica, here I am
A little bit of you makes me your man (ah)
Trumpet, the trumpet
Mambo Number Five, hahaha
A little bit of Monica in my life
A little bit of Erica by my side
A little bit of Rita's all I need
A little bit of Tina's what I see
A little bit of Sandra in the sun
A little bit of Mary all night long
A little bit of Jessica, here I am
A little bit of you makes me your man (huh)
I do all to fall in love with a girl like you
'Cause you can't run and you can't hide
You and me gonna touch the sky
Mambo Number Five (ah)
New subscriber! [ᓀ˵▾˵ᓂ]
no matter what, we always lose the fast ones, now that GT3 has taken over the world, we no longer have the 911 GT2 RS, and LMH is slower than LMP1.
we lose GT1, but we cant lose F4 or Super Formula.
What's wrong with super formula these days? They're ~ as fast as F2
@@mattBLACKpunk thats the problem, similar to F2, why isnt Super formula suited to its name, and BETTER than F1, and actually SUPER.
Because it's a national championship
@@FailedRacers GT1 was International i thought? Mclaren being british while Porsche and MB are german, and toyota enters a LMP into the championship with Nissans R390 from japan?
I'm talking about Super Formula. It's slower than F1 because it's a national championship.
0:44 "they simply went to heaven"
"No clue lemme see"
I’m being old here, I know, but could you leave off with the techno 90s music? It’s abrasive to me, it tires me out really fast.
Since your target audience is old geezers anyway, like me…
It's mostly about keeping people's attention, TikTok, TH-cam Shorts, etc. has shortened people's attention spans, so you have to put some effort into keeping people's attention. 55% of this video's audience is 18-24 years old
Group B? Introduced for safety and cost cutting purposes!?! 🤔
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
*Proceeds to die of laughter*
I mean, it makes sense when you compare it to unhinged madness that Group 5 produced.