Bake your PLA and have it outperform everything else!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ต.ค. 2016
- Turn your regular PLA into a performance plastic with this one weird trick!
Get HTPLA from proto-pasta.com?aff=44
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This XY shrinkage could be an interesting property if you want to heat-shrink a part around a metal part for example. No glue needed and better strength.
Not a great idea. You might not want to mix materials with different thermal conductivity.
@@3dr14ng4 depends on the usecase.
In use cases where thermal conductivity may not matter such as mechanical devices or covers and sleeves for metallic devices, this isn't relevant and considering that most mechanically apt metals are not subject to warping or excessive expansion at such low temps just above boiling water, it's a fantastic idea you acquired there, good thinking!
Like shrinking the handle around the tang of a metal blade
Thumbs up for going the scientific route, and including ordinary PLA in the heat treatment test. Unexpected results, that are usable indeed. #respect
A lot of the best results in science were by mistakes, but if you purposefully include testing everything, you sure make it much easier to make those "mistakes". Good going Bro!
that's the difference between legit enthusiasts and commercial hacks peddling a specific product (or every product willing to cut a check)
youtube has gotten quite infested with the latter
Jonathan D that is quite a tightrope to walk and an interesting subject. I am a commercial hack who is also a legit enthusiast, the crossroads are a startup. I want to be genuine, open, technical, and innovative. I am re-using techniques like this and many more to use FDM as a basis for molding and casting an entire wet line of parts for our products. What would be your main points for not making instructional videos too commercial, but made by someone like me who is (or should be) obviously selling something else? I want to make money on our products, not by monetizing our software and techniques, that should belong to the community. Thanks
I recently reprinted the broken handle of my espresso machine (witch gets around 90 °C) with PLA. At the beginning i thought this was a bad choice because it became very soft the first time the espresso machine got hot. But after a couple of times heating and cooling down the espresso machine the PLA stays hard even if the machine is on for hours and the handle feels stronger then ever.
That's interesting, maybe heat cycling changes it chemically?
How is it now, Tijn v?
Austin, I think that changing the "architecture" of a material inside it is already the chemistry. Or maybe I'm wrong and it's supposed to be called "physics" :)
P.S. yeah, it was enforced by coffee molecules :D
MoolahNasreddin as are the best things in life!
Tijn v Maybe heat changes the chemical structure of the filament and bonds the layers. Heat treating is an effective way to increase strength and heat capability’s but it will shrink.
@@hazoish7670 Molecular structure not the chemical structure.
Awesome video! I absolutely love the whole idea, it has certainly increased the amount of information on the market for filaments by far and is sure to be a handy tool to makers everywhere! Thanks again Thomas!
First ever video I have seen from you, I am blown away. The depth of testing and production quality is amazing!
Awesome Thomas, thanks for sharing. Great idea and very well introduced.
Brilliant Thomas, always fun to see a theory proven, I love your investigative approach
Cant say how SUPER GREAT your videos are! *Quality* is just great, dont know where to start.
Fascinating to see and hear some of the ideas from metal such as crystallization and annealing, being applied to plastic. Going to have to try this.
Hey Tom, great video. We have been working with Proto-Pasta High temp filaments a lot, and testing them and the annealing process. We found the High Temp carbon fibre needs longer than one hour...up to 4hrs in larger more dense parts. You can tell if it has annealed correctly because you get zero softening at 120 degrees. This rule also applies to their HT PLA. WE make parts that are part of a kit that sits on a hot plate at 110 degrees for hours and has zero warp or soften. We anneal these parts at 75 degrees for 4 hours to get the best results. I wonder if the slower, lower temperatures we use actually increase the effectiveness. Interestingly we also get zero shrinkage in any axis.
I will continue to examine this, and will let you know when our results are online
We are still learning too :-) Keep experimenting and sharing! We will too!!!
Chemically, anytime a crystal is formed, slowing the process down will result in bigger crystals. Which properties PLA cured at lower temperatures exhibits is yet to be seen, but playing with temperature and other factors could produce many useful results. I'm curious about how various vaporized solvents might effect the process as well.
Any method of annealing will reduce induced stress within a material and affects its final dimension (shrinkage and expansion). We normally see this within the PET packaging industry. The most interesting part is the added strength, this would concur with the theory of crystalinity being promoted by the heating process. PLA was originally designed as a replacement resin for PET material (plastic water bottles) back in the late 90's (it failed miserably). The ability to injection mold and then blow stretch would require a fairly long molecular bond, and ability to crystallize. Now how far can it be crystalized? BTW. I left my Proto-Pasta CF parts on their raft on a heated bed up to 110 C. Simply made a small box to insulate them and left them for 2 hours. Reduced to 80C for one hour, and finally one last hour at 60C. This prevented the parts from wrapping.
give that info, can they also be heat treated, or tempered to a degree? With the extra strength gained is a little of that happening to some extent already?
landlockedviking i am not as familiar with Nylon's and their properties. but would i say definitely yes to PETG
now that is a great idea to use the heat bed and a raft. I could see that could exceptionally well
Thank you for the insight. This is something to add to my knowledge repertoire.
That's great info, Fred! Thanks for sharing that, I was actually wondering about staged cooling. Doing on the bed is brilliant! :-)
Thank you Thomas.... That was a great contribution
That is really interesting. Cool discovery! Appreciate the testing rigor as well. Will definitely try this out.
I love these short really easy to digest fialment reviews
tried baking PLA few weeks back, parts were definitely stronger but it really only suitable for use on simple shapes, brackets etc..
Awesome share Tom... thanks for thinking out the box that's what helps lead to new discoveries
awesome! who'd have thought that PLA would perform so well when annealed, thanks Tom! that's an awesome tip, I'm going to do a few tests and possibly stop printing in Abs altogether.
Thank you for including the shrinkage and expansion percentages.
Awesome video. I'm going to try this with my PLA parts. Having the extra strength would be fantastic since PLA is my favorite material to print with. I would also like to see what different lengths of time do, and different methods of cooling, like tempering used for metals.
I will have to try this myself. Thanks for the idea!
Thank you for the video, this was an interesting watch.
Shrinkage XY and expansion Z could be due to memory effects relating to each line of deposited filament attempting to return to a more circular cross section as it was in the nozzle. Great work Tom.
Interesting hypothesis! I'd like to see heat treating under a microscope :-)
If you can see molecular chain alignment under a scope, go for it! ;) Just a kind of laymen's explanation here: When the material is melted, whether in a blog on your table or in the extruder chamber and they are not pressurized, the molecular chains can relax and situate themselves however they like....think unorganized like of a plate of spaghetti. Once pressure is applied and it's forced thru the nozzle, they have to all line up while being pushed out and they go with the flow - north, south, east, or west of the orifice....because the resulting layer is thinner than the nozzle opening and cooling happens so quickly, they freeze in the direction they were pushed (or laid out, if you will)...and they always desire to get back to the relaxed state.....it's stressful work staying rigid like that... Once heat is applied again, the closer they get to the glass transition point (not quite melting), they have freedom to relax and that's what they do as best they can.
wow good to know all round info . great vid man.
Being a 3d printer newbie I was gobsmacked by how strong just plain PLA prints were. Now this!
That was a cool video Tom! I will try it.
I'm a 3D printing n00b but was very pleased to hear this. Very informative, thank you.
some things to try:
buy an oven thermometer that sits on the rack. Built- in thermometers are notoriously inaccurate.
fill a tray with corn starch, lay the pieces on that to bake them. It should even out the heat distribution. The uneven surface of the plate used in the video would play havoc with this. You could go further and continue by also covering the parts with more corn starch. I'd try at least 1 cm deep above and below.
I'll use powdered salt.
Wow! I didn't see that coming, but to be fair, I'd never thought about it either :-)
Awesome video and insight Tom ... You really do know how to get our grey matter working.
Excellent review!!
Very interesting. My gears are now going to get some "special" treatment (well, the next lot I print and size accordingly).
Thanks for sharing the info.
I gotta say I've been LOVING eSun's PLA Pro/PLA+ lately. For its relatively cheap price I've been astounded by its performance and layer bonding....and even if it's not "stronger" you can tell it's many times less brittle. Pieces that would ordinarily suddenly fail with breakage instead bend a tad. And it's a few bucks cheaper than regular hatchbox PLA on amazon. I've gone through two fulls spools of each and I like the eSun PLA+!
This would be a great use for a PCB reflow oven made from a toaster oven. The ability to expiriment and dial in different profiles for different materials would be great.
Awesome info, thanks!
I can say that the PLA parts i printed think it was back in 2012 on my first printer The Printrbot Simple and the parts are still going strong. with the pressure of the pool wall i thought it would break but it proved to be just the opposite. Even a year ago i printed parts to fix my wifes bumper on her SUV and they are still going strong. Gotta love PLA.
any plastics that have seen some kind of warm passing through a nozzle (extruded parts, water bottle is prolly best example) will show this kind of behavior.
crystallisation and recrystallisation mainly cause the shrinkage. the problem with fillers can be, that they suffer from bad adhesion to the matrix due to shrinkage and then basically act as crack starting points rather than reinforcing the matrix and often have not much use. adding special linking-agents (particle-matrix), e.g. silanisation can compensate for this.
Thanks, I'll give it a try!
Whoa! I'm going to try this right now!
that is fascinating! I will have to try that with a PLA wrench :)
I'd love to see more tests and different temperatures and time baked
Very interesting! I'll try this technique on some 3d printed hair sticks. I break my regular 3d printed ones too easily and the shrinkage doesn't affect the function whatsoever.
Hi Tom, do you have the design for your test part? I would like to repeat your test myself
Fred P, Great tip! I’ll try it.
Tom, can you do a video on Sainsmart PVA, recommended settings on your printer and any preparations we should be making for the material (e.g. baking it, etc.)
Man that’s awesome!!!
This might explain why my PLA Hurricane cooling duct and E3D V6 mount have not failed on my CR-10. I initially printed these out of PLA just to see how well they fit. That was last year and I can tell the material has changed because I can feel the material is noticably harder and denser. I am printing another one out of PETG just to see how well it holds up on my other CR-10.
Just did my own tests with Makergeeks' HTPLA and some generic PLAs, and I can confirm, normal PLA sees huge improvements. I was worried about making a coffee cup out of PLA for obvious reasons, which is why I went for HTPLA, but after annealing the regular PLA in my tests I am seeing that it could handle near boiling temperatures just fine with no warpage or softening.
I am currently interested in moving from ABS to PLA but need the temperature range offer by ABS, so your video was of great interest to me. Based on your input, I baked a PLA box, which is 86x95 mm and with a print height of 41 mm. Wall thickness is 3 mm. Unfortunately, the annealing process caused the box walls to warp and blister with the outer shell separating from the inner fill. However, by encapsulating the box in plaster of paris and annealing below the boiling point of water, to avoid the moist plaster from cracking, I was able to get a usable PLA box, with virtually no warping or blistering. It's dimensions were also very close to that specified in the design.
Given the lid is a flat 3 mm surface, all I had to do to avoid an warping was to cook it while still attached to my hair spray coated glass print plate. There was, however, a 0.6% shrinkage along the print surface x and y axis. Print height increased by 3%.
I'd love it if you did more on this. Tests for how consistent the shrinkage is would be a great start, and testing a variety of temperatures and times would be good too. I'm curious whether short cycles of heating to the glass transition temperature, then cooling, then heating again might reduce the amount of shrinkage seen or whether it would just worsen overall results.
I'd do this myself, but I don't have a toaster oven that goes to low enough temperatures, and my printer has problems I'm still working out.
Makes sense... time/temperature treatment post-production results in greater cross-linking. Which generally yields better mechanical properties. Unless you cook it so much that you degrade it, that is. Covered in Materials 1 in my 2nd year of Engineering, and that was in another Century, in world where I earned my degree in the age when we all moved from the slide rule to those amazing 8-function hand calculators.
Very nice! Ypou need to put this new part in your #Filaween series! This video make me think about knife making process , where you firstly quench your knife and then temper it for some hours in oven! Just need to speriment other temperatures and times.
To prevent sticking, use a powder coating product called pre-release. Also unless you are trying to apply a texture to the part, use a smooth flat surface.
What material do you recommend for powder coating?
@@RyanR3STL3SS Material to coat or material for coating? You can coat any material that withstands 350° in an oven, and for coating there are powers available in many colors.
Eastwood and Amazon have a wide selection of powders.
I'd like a torsional test and crush, esp as a wrench or bolt head, test. If you could perform those tests It'd be appreciated
I wonder if you could add some temperature profiling into the HBP to cycle up and down a couple of times to achieve a similar effect while the part is still (potentially) adhered to the plate, possibly reducing warping.
Hi Tom! congrats for a great channel! I've been following your videos for a while now and like your stuff!
I was wondering if the annealing process has an effect on the long-term strength of the plastics also.. perhaps you could leave the load resting on a particular material for a while and determine the long-term deflections (and/or failure) to sustained load?
We had done some strength tests on a 3D printed joint a while back, we noted that while we were able to increase the ultimate strength (not by annealing, but by solidifying the internal structure), the long-term strength was never really improved - perhaps you could test out that strength aspect?
once again, great job!
Also, annealing plastic, especially when machining injection molded parts to exact dimensions, seems common enough (at least for industries that do such things) that there is quite a lot of material on the topic. When annealed for this purpose, there seem to be temperature, ramp up, and ramp down cycles for different types of plastics. For example: www.boedeker.com/anneal.htm
It's likely that both PETG and ABS parts would also benefit from annealing, although with different temperature and ramp schedules. There's enough material on plastics from other industries that would lead me to believe that all of these techniques should also apply to 3D FDM printed parts, but I can find very little rigorous experimentation.
Just baked a sample of Prusa PLA as supplied with the MK2 @ 110C for 15 minutes on a perfectly flat glass tile (preheated). The part was scrap because of design changes. The test was to determine what level of warp it would get and if there was a progressive effect over time in 15 min steps. After the first 15 minutes the warping affected the geometry so much that further steps were not needed. Z change was +11% over 8mm and in the other planes it was -10.6% over 10mm and -8% over 70mm. One long side had a central protrusion with an 8mm hole with its centre line on the side face, it suffered -11.4% reduction. The part was complex having four other holes in it so it could be expected to warp in an irregular and unpredictable way. The only thing to take away from the test is that longer stretches of parallel filament seem too shrink less than shorter stretches where the proportion of parallel to perpendicular runs is smaller.
Bake it in packed sand, significantly less warping as it is essentially fully supported.
It might be a good idea to anneal the pla at a lower temperature to give it slightly improved thermal properties than do a second round of annealing at a higher temperature. Maybe it will warp less?
It would be interesting to see if printing/annealing with an inert shield gas would increase bond strength.
you must be a welder? Nice idea... argon print cooling... hmmm
You could do threaded insert during annealing and it should hold it much tighter
FYI: wood shrinks in the opposite way, more or less, when drying. it's different in all three dimensions. wood hardly shrinks at all in the main axis of the fibers. but here's the kicker: wood shrinks more perpendicular to the tree rings than it does parallel to the rings. that's why plainsawn (when rings tend to run the breadth of the board) tends to warp into a half-moon cross section, as the rings are circular. I know it's not relevant, but I think it's cool.
If you made a cast of the printed part with material that retains its shape under high temps.
Then place the printed part inside the cast as its being annealed, then maybe that would help maintain its original shape. 🤔
I anealed an irregular shaped part in a pan full of white rice to support it to reduce warping and it seemed to work rather well
this is the same thing that is done with glass and metal, never knew it would work with plastic. pretty cool.
Which Brand was the standard PLA? dasFilament?
Cool! I've been needing some thin, mass-produced plastic parts that can hold about 26 kilograms for upwards of 5 minutes over and over and I think this will help.
You should try with several steps in the annealing process : start with a 70C cession, then 85, then 100, and you may even try 110C after that. The shrinkage will still be quite present, but you should avoid any major deformations.
I think for more simple things that don't have to fit together or be tight in tolerance this is great! But I feel like in most cases a different filament choice would be better. When are we going to see some nylon and the like Tom?
Maybe you could try baking a regular PLA coil before printing and see if that adds any extra data. I sometimes have used baking on PLA to remove extra moisture. I have noticed that it seems to look differently, but I never tried a strength test to the parts afterwards. If it adds some strength it might be a better option then this because the part won't have shrinkage.
Dry filament definitely gives the best printing result, but don't be misled, heat treating your filament beforehand will not give it high temperature resistance. Melting during printing "resets" the material structure to amorphous and it still needs to be baked to afterwards to crystallize and get that high temperature resistance!
great video Tom. I am sure it's going to get many comments. good work
An idea that I have to do annealing, do not test yet, is to put for several seconds in boiling water, remove it and put it in cold water, put it in hot water for several seconds, take it out and put it in cold water. Repeating the process many times, it is that the interior of the object does not acquire temperature, and only do it much after the outer walls and if they are consistent and endure more temperature. A way to do the annealling step by step without deformation, "this is theory by now".
I wish you would have added "before and after" strength tests, perhaps some time in the future?
I tested normal PLA and petg for a quad build and wasn't happy with either then heard or the tempered/ annealed PLA I gave that a try and is far superior. To get round the warping, when it's cooling a place a heavy object on the top and it flattens it back to normal so in the end it's only a little smaller than the original piece and the minor shrinkage is accounted for. End result is a far stronger and heat resistant quadcopter especially the arms
Hey Thomas, should you review the case of Annealing PLAs, you should definitely try quenching it like Alex Kenis did :)
I'd like to see a revisit of their new htpla v3 vs their v2 but in regular non-fill pla.
110 C is 230 F for us dumb Americans.
The shrinking makes sense if you know anything about pizza making or hat making.
In pizza crust, the dough is full of gluten, which is like a whole bunch of elastic bands. If you try to stretch it in a particular direction, the gluten strands will line up and then all retract, making it even worse then when you pulled it. Similarly, the felt for a hat will shrink in the direction you try to pull it out because the fiber line up and retract like rubber bands. In both cases, you have to coax the shape outward by pulling it in circles around the center. You can't really do this with a printed part, but it helps you understand what is going on.
Think of the 3D print as a bunch of fibers stacked on top of each other. These fibers are largely lined up, layer by layer, and will shrink back into itself when heated, but they will also become thicker. So the X and Y shrinkage should be consistent if the shape is consistent. but if the lines are more aligned with, say, the Y then it will shrink a bit more in that direction.
I work in a plastic manufacturer and we do anneal one part and how we keep a consistent shape is we have a metal form the part goes on to keep it to a specific size. So if you wish to do this for your printed parts, you can but you might want to design and cast a form to fit you part onto to keep them from shrinking in ways you do not want, such as moving screw holes too much in a two-part case. This will be a bit easier and more consistent than trying to calculate the amount of shrinkage
Hello Thomas, many thanks for the video. I am awaiting a spool of 3D Fuel APLA which claims to be the best post annealing. Maybe worth you looking at it too after finding out this result.
Hey Thomas!
I'm an undergraduate researcher with Mississippi State University who's currently studying the effects of annealing on standard PLA printed parts. The purpose for this is, as you likely know, to increase viability of additively manufactured parts that are to be put under moderate levels of stress, since the additive method of manufacturing is, without a doubt, the least wasteful manufacturing method. I wanted to thank you for taking a scientific approach to this. While putting together my research literature I have found very few sources that actually include scientific data in their observations and findings on the particular topic of additive PLA annealing. I would also like to ask if you would mind letting me reference this video in my final report and presentation.
Thanks!
Ryan
great vid btw 👍
interesting... In the hobby world... we used to "boil" and "Dye" parts to make RC car suspension pieces stronger. Essentially you would take your part and boil at 100c for near 30m or so with fabric dye mixed in water. It made the suspension pieces stronger but essentially they were annealing them like with what you are talking about.
Hey Thomas, have you ever baked clear pla? You think it would make it clearer?
Thanks.
I wonder if the gain in strength is due to the fact that it increased in size along Z-axis which is where you are applying force to break it? (shrinking in size is also making it more dense)... Good video as usual!!
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I get my best results printing in ABS and exposing the parts to a room temperature vapor chamber (fancy name for a polypropylene box - or a box of other materials impervious to acetone (HDPE, glass, etc.)) with a small Acetone reservoir. Just keep in mind to not expose the part for too long; if the vapor penetrates too far the part will deform as it releases the acetone (in my experience, depending on the size and anatomy of the part,
Other people have done testing which reveals that acetone treatment weakens parts. The acetone is incorporated into the plastic, and leaves air bubbles when it evaporates. The outermost shell may seem tougher and uniform, but the interior is more spongy and weaker than before.
That is a valid concern, the physics of it seems plausible. As stated I don't have empiric evidence for my claim, but my limited testing seem to indicate strengthening. I suppose both exposure time and vapor method (hot vs. cold) could be a factor; I find that parts I "over-expose" seem structurally weaker and prone to warping. I also suspect that adding temperature (hot vaporizing) would make the acetone penetrate deeper by virtue of the plastic being hotter, thereby potentially creating complications upon evaporation.
It should also be said that I could be entirely wrong, this has been the case once or twice before. :P
Ultimately, for parts where strength is of the utmost importance I generally make a silicone mold using the 3D printed part and cast the final piece in polyurethane. This of course has its own set of limitations, chief of which is the anatomy of the part.
TheMrBeaton There's definitely going to be a sweet spot for that. Also, the many variables like wall thickness and in-fill will vary things massively!
Welp. PLA just went back to the top of my list. Now to experiment with adjusting for shrinkage.
Carbon is like wood where it has a grain structure. Especially when printing it vertically. If you printed this part horizontally the carbon should out preform the other plastics. Of couse this is for regular carbon fiber. Idk if the same applies to printed parts. But having your grain aligned with your forces properly should add strength in the dimensions you need while it will be weaker in the other dimensions.
Hesitate to draw any firm conclusions. From my experimentation it seems like different companies use different source materials/formulations for PLA. Even when I was trying to smooth them different brands gave drastically different results from treatment with different chemicals like ethyl acetate, M.E.K. substitute, tetrahydrofuran, acrylic cement, pipe cleaner, dimethyl carbonate, etc etc. Doesn't help that even the chemical manufacturers add different things in their products.
Pack it in the sand to add compression force to allow filament to bond. This is common post processing techniques done on metal SLA printing. I am assuming same practice can be done on FDM plastic parts.
Try acetone vapor on ABS parts to see if the improvement could be compared with this baking PLA method :D
Thomas Sanladerer try then baking ABS :)
Hi, I`m quoting another post: PLA chemistry favour the annealing process. Unlike ABS which is highly amorphous and annealing won`t cause large crystalline grains, so maybe is not worth doing with ABS.
Hi Tom,
I am a 3D printing enthusiast from the USA who just bought himself a Prusa i3 MK2 (courtesy of your video, actually). I have a fairly large list of filament manufactures I want to test and show. I also thought your test system was easily the best. I just wanted to ask your permission to see if making videos in the the same format was OK because I don't want to look like I'm copying you and not giving you any credit or anything.
All the best,
Daniel.
Guess you never pursued that
this is great for fusing fdm layers, bioplastic is love, bioplastic is life
Hey Tom, amazing video! Do you think this is possible with glass reinforced PP? Let me know:)
Try annealing in got water with different temps. It might prevent gravity effects.
Hello i know this video is a few years old. But, have you dont a new conoarison with PC and Nylon filaments to check their strength?
i printed my part cooling fan in pla, i heat cycled it, started at glass transition temp or just under for 5 mins and let it cool,then raised the temp 15 degrees and did same till i reached 110 its been fine for months now i little shrinkage but not as bad if you just hit it at 110 straight away
Really interesting. But can you test it with PET-G?
The carbon fiber reinforced parts did not actually anneal at 110C, the fact that they are black means that they actually end up somewhere between the temperature of the air and the temperature of the heater elements., as a result of their high emissivity. This may also have made the green part get hotter as well. In order to fix this issue, I have wrapped parts in aluminum foil to ensure that they are not being directly hit by the radiation from the heating coils.
This was an awesome test! What was your infill % and layer height?
Very interesting, indeed. Viewed a couple of TH-cam vids today where bargain-basement PLA completely destroyed HTPLA in strength tests. LOL!
Ok, real talk. Where did you get those glasses? They are badass
thats good to know.. as i prefer pla above all.. pla is the cleanest and easiest to print... for perfect engineering parts with out the strength.. until now.. a perfect overall filament... the only problem i see.. for exact measurements.. after heated might not be exact to specifications even if altered on software.
I'm interested in how much of a weight difference there is in annealed part vs untreated part.