Note that if this happens to you, you’re not going to die or anything. You’ll be on the backup carabineer, that’s why it is there. You’ll probably be scared, but alive. That’s what matters.
This looks crazy bomber. I learned to climb where the etiquette was to rapp because "lowering wears out the chains" but that's only a problem when it's so hard and expensive to replace the chains that no one wants to do it. If a crag was set up with these, and 10% of climbers carried an extra pigtail, I'd think it would make anchor maintenance happen naturally. Swapping these seems idiotproof.
Hell yeah Bobby! This is a rad system. At first I was thinking why not connect the bolt with the rams horn to another bolt with a chain (for redundancy) but this system is superior. No chain is required, there is added redundancy if you top rope directly through it, and there's something to clip quickly when you first arrive. Totally brilliant.
I used a similar system to what you describe but got really tired if installing chain. This new system is so much lower profile. With this and glue ins you could hike right past the climbs.
Thanks Jonathan, Spent so much time talking about this in person and in posts that I figured I might as well record my thoughts. When I climb with people I usually don't tell people how to use it and every one has figured it out quickly.
Hey Bobby, so glad the algorithm just started sending me your channel. Instant subscriber, thanks. In the bigger picture, I think it’s videos and education like this that will start to encourage people to think that clipping, lowering, and top roping off of fixed hardware rigged like this is more acceptable. If modern hardware like this can eliminate the entire process of untying from the end of the rope, then I think the overall benefit from that far outweighs the potential downsides. Thank you for sharing creative modern techniques, and best of luck with your channel. ❤️
Thanks for Subscribing. Thats the goal. It really stesses me out seeing people get coached thru cleaning an anchor by some who also doesn't understand the process bc they heard someone say NEVER use the permanent hardware. No, we installed those mussy hooks so you could avoid that step if you didn't know how to do it.
Bobby I love when u give ur opinion on a topic, You have integrity and I feel really safe and I believe what you say,an have our safty first an foremost ,keep up the videos love them 👍
This looks great. I found the traditional method of cleaning and rappelling really discouraging when I first started climbing outside. Especially when a dirtbag like me spent their gym membership on gear and not a course. First thing I learned from my lead was how many people die rappelling. And I'm sure many of them did take a course. Anyway thanks for furthering the sport, I'm glad you are nerdy about these things.
When I started climbing there weren't many gyms. There weren't many climbers either. Most of my education came from a mentor I climbed with outdoors and from reading classics like Freedom of the Hills and John Long's books. The sport has certainly changed. The other day I met a climber who could lead 5.10 and climb 5.12 on TR, but he'd never climbed outdoors. I was shocked. We have great rock 2 hours from where I live. I don't get it, but to each his or her own.
Thanks Bobby, that's really slick. If I do any development or re-bolting in my area I'm definitely going to consider this system. I'd love to see more videos from you!
I like it. Looks like a good system. I see the advantages. I think two bolts side by side with rap rings are also good enough. If I encountered this at the top of a route though I'd be completely comfortable using it.
I remember the first time I came across one of those (at Portland in the UK) I was like what the hell is this. They make alot of sense though, I hate seeing new climbers being instructed from the ground on lowering off.
Nice explanation, myself and my regular(ish) climbing partner haven't come across this yet, and as the more experienced/committed I like to anticipate what we may have to deal with. This looks like a very good system with few drawbacks, I'll be pinging the link to this video over. 👍
@@bobbyhutton1989 yeah much better for new climbers than trying to remember how to rethread rings that are tight, or like we have in some places here in the UK fixed screwgate locking carabiners (which will be locked by the climber, then can seize). I recall climbing an easy route then belaying my mate who was shouting down at me "why the hell did you lock them!?!?" Panic mode set in a bit there but all was good in the end. Thanks for the reply. 👍
Hey Bobby, awesome to see you putting out your own vids! This is such great info and you've got an instant subscriber here. Small suggestion for audio production--it would be worthwhile to do some compression and/or normalize the audio to keep the overall level loud enough for different systems. Easy to do after editing, but worth making sure different individual clips are at the same average loudness as well. Can't wait to see what else is coming up!
Welcome aboard. Glad you enjoyed it. I did some leveling on this video, but still learning. I found some AI program for my later videos that really helps with the sound. Not perfect but I am also not paying a professional to do my audio. I have a mic in the mail.
Easily the best anchor setup in almost any scenario. Even when rock quality dictates the bolts be side by side I will now put a chain on one bolt so as to turn it into a vertical anchor. As you noted in the video, the USS steel carabiners have a pretty stiff gate and as a result are pretty hard to clip with one hand. I recommend that people clip the top lower off first in most cases, then have your belayer take your weight before clipping the steel carabiner. People who don't know get annoyed when they are gripped and desperately trying to clip the lower carabiner.
Hey Chris, I hear you are the guy to talk to about the Mill. I haven’t found them to be "that”stiff. Might have to do with clipping technique. But yes clip the rams horn first if you need too.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Quite a few people have told me they had trouble clipping them, but you're right: a lot of people aren't great at clipping. Climbers are just used to the ease of clipping a mussy I suppose. And yes, feel free to message me if you want beta for the Mill...
i like that its 1- fast to use, no fumbling around with opposing carabiner like in gyms and 2- open unlike a ring (or locked frozen carabiner), so the climber doesnt need to do "the maneuver" (anchor themselves, feed rope into the ring, tie figure8onabight, carabine it to harness, untie original figure8, untie anchor) which is a chance to make dangerous mistakes, and 3- obviously easier and cheaper to replace in high use/corrosion environment
Hey Bobby, I was climbing in Italy and in one route, just before the Crux, there was a Horn installed to rappell from, if you can't send the line. But I was very insecure how i should clip my quickdraw in the same anker as this horn. If I installed it behind, it opened the gate and on the top I think it would bend the quickdraw if I took a big whipper. I then installed an HMS carabiner behind the horn, so the gate stays closed and cliped the rope there. What would you do in this situation? If you have time, could you do some testing? Maybe with @HowNot2 ? Keep up the good work. Best, Steve
Interesting. Wierd that the rams horn would open you quickdraw gate just sitting on it. In hangers I try to keep whatever gear is loaded closest to the wall to avoid the bending you mention and traping other gear underneath it. I would have done the same thing, use a locking carabiner underneath the rams.
Good to see you on your own channel, and this is a very cool anchor! I’m unsure about the likelihood of rust welding the gate on the carabiner shut? Some 200-300 days of rain a year in my case for the estimate.
Where ever you live is not for me, I am getting depressed after the last 3 weeks of rain and snow here. Do you see rust on stainless steel there? All the components of those US Stainless hooks shown in the video are stainless to the best of my knowledge.
I've seen them in some places in Germany. Here, they are usually used without a backup when lowering but the metal ends are usually chosen in a way that they press against the rock and there is no distance. Less experienced climbers refuse to use them often times as they aren't sure if they use them correctly, though.
For the point #3 "Double Clip" concern, on one vertical anchor I put hardware on, I went with a mallion + D shackle + 2 opposing closed-eye wiregate carabineer (all SS) on the bottom bolt. A little more money in hardware, but provides extra security if that's what someone is aiming for.
Interesting. I would love to see a picture. I guess you would clip the other/top piece before you tried to clip the two carabiners. it is easy to add a regular locking carabiner in the manner you describe, temporarily, for top roping. For just one lower, I am really not concerned bc you are wieghted the whole time and there is minimal back and forth. It is TRing thru the anchors that I see double clipping happening.
Still haven't run into a rams horn in the wild, but I'm a big fan of these vertically offset anchors in general. Another big advantage is they can have a lower visual impact, since you don't have a bunch of SS chain connecting bolts. Easier on the wallet too!
Absolutely. Huge difference in visibility. I got really funned out on chain as you waste so much cutting it to length and you never know the best length so you carry 4 lengths just to make sure you have the right one.
I have come across the ramshorn a few times as a climber, and found them easy to use. Add in the cost and install efficiencies you mention, and it seems like a great choice for bolting.
First time I ever encountered rams horns in the wild was the first time I ever climbed sport outdoors (Vent 5, Mickey's Beach, California). Led to a little confusion at first, but I found them intuitive and was able to correctly rig them and lower off. I'm a fan.
Bobby! These look awesome and super bomber :) Love the simplicity and security! I wanted to just gently suggest that the metal ziptie security recommendation might be rough on the rope. That said I've been following your stuff for a while now and I trust you to know what's going to cause issues in your installs. I hope to someday find some of your bolts in the wild!
A bunch of regions in Europe (Frankenjura for one) use only the single pigtail without the backup biner. (Guess they have done that since the beginning of sport climbing). Obviously not ideal from modern safety standards, but seems to have few enough accidents for people to occasionally still installing new routes with only the one.
We use this anchor chained to 2 bolts on many crags and i have seen it in climbing gyms as well. If you dont trust this, you should reconsider having climbing as a hobby 😁
Excellent looking setup. Huge fan of easily replaceable permagear with lower visual impact. For the toprope setup, I’d just clip into the ss and then throw a single aluminum in the ramshorn for the majority of the wear. But, if more places had anything like this I’d bring more steel gear with me.
I really like this anchor, but if TR with my own gear, I'd prefer keeping the rams horn clear (where the red locker is) so that my second can easily move the rope before removing anything. Having to move that locker potentially puts the 2nd on one piece if they forget to connect directly to the top bolt.
Any opinion of using spliced amsteel to resling cams? It would be particularly advantageous for dmm dragons as the splice would be able to slide through the eyes. Normally I just use 6mm accessory cord tied with double fisherman's. Climbers seem to literally never use amsteel type cord, it just doesn't make sense, highliners and sailors trust their lives to it. Maybe it seems too diy for climbers (we have clearly lost our way somewhere), but it also doesn't seem any different to tying a knot in cord other than being a different skill to actually do it.
First time I came across these ram's horns anchors they were used as a pair and installed level with each other about 8-10 inches apart or so. It looked like a good configuration as far as safety and ease of replacement when they do eventually wear out. Have you tried out that configuration yet and what are your thoughts on that vs. the setup in the video? One thing that I can think of is that you can clip into that lower SS carabiner easier (more naturally) than a ram's horn for the leader, especially if the clipping position and hold isn't great.
Haven't used that set up. Probably works great. Where dod you see that set up? It requires you to replace 2 pieces. Though it may wear longer. There is a common perception that when anchor pieces are seperated it twists the rope. Which is why many anchors use chain to bring bring the two points together. Of course if and how much the rope gets twisted depends on a lot of factors.
@@alexnone5720 Those guys put in an inspiring amount of work. One of them runs the US distribution for Bolt Products. So I get my rams horns thru him. I believe they are mostly retro fitting existing anchors.
@@beaniebobh1 Getting out and traveling more has made me appreciate just how well the bolts and anchors in Rumney were maintained and replaced as necessary. They should have good feedback on how well they are holding up on the popular routes and feedback they've been getting from the regulars there on dual ram's horns vs mussies or other anchors.
I bought stainless 5 piece bolts because I wanted to setup some top rope routes near my house. This seems like a pretty solid setup to use. Now I just need to learn more about installing them, preferably with someone who knows what they’re doing rather than just going off of TH-cam Achademy lol
These mostly get used in beginners areas or popular routes here. If you haven't seen Monster Hooks they are also sometimes used and are intended as single point anchors, slightly more complex to thread without getting twisted, but once you do it right they are interesting!
I have never seen the monster hooks in person, only on the Bolt Products website. Wierdly someone sent me a photo of one right about the time you commented.
These seem so much easier to use and replace than the usual chain link and ring anchors that I'm slightly surprised that I haven't come across any IRL even on really new routes. Would much prefer to just "slap the rope in" and be ready for lowering instead of hooking up to the anchor with PAS, yell to belayer that you're safe and clearing the anchor, pass the rope through the rings, tie a fig8 on a bite, connect that to your harness with locking carabiner, untie your main fig8 knot from the harness, yell to belayer to take you, detach PAS, yell that you're ready to be lowered. Then again didn't know these existed before this video so maybe it's just not widely known around here.
My thoughts exactly. I believe variations are more common in Europe. We are seeing the mussy hook version of open system Anchors more in single pitch crags on the West Coast.
Great video, I'm super glad to find your channel and be able to watch your videos! What's your opinion on connecting the two bolts with a chain? Where I climb it's standard procedure (bolters seem to purchase/prepare anchor sets with two bolts connected with a chain, usually with 2 carabiners not unlike what you have on your lower bolt), although I'm not 100% sure why. I suppose one scenario where it could be useful is in an event of a rock failure, which you mentioned, the rock would slide along the rope (connected by the pigtail) until it hits somebody. Similarly, if a bolt fails it could be useful to keep the components of an anchor together. Of course rock failure is unlikely, but as I'm unfamiliar with the relative prices of a chain, bolts, quicklinks and so on it seems possible that it's worth it to add a chain to hold the whole anchor together in the event of one bolt failing or the rock failing on one bolt. Thanks in advance for replying, if you do!
I assume you are talking about a veritcal set up where the bolt with the lower off hardware is backed up by a chain to a higher bolt? If the hardware is strong enough it works great. Bolt placements wise it is a bit limiting as tell you how far apart the bolts need to be. That can be challenging in some rock types. Using stainless chain that last and doesn't stain the rock can add 75% to the anchor cost. it also makes the anchor way more visible.
Great video! Care to explain the reasoning behind the orientation (upside down/upside up) of the pear shaped carabiners in the last setup? I'm guessing there's a thought behind it.
Thanks. The rams horn was a bit think for the bottom of the HMS to sit flush. Of course you could clip it under the rams horn and orient it so the gate screws down. Lots of ways to make it work.
Hey bobby, First of all, great videos you're putting out! Secondly, in tyrol all the 'baskets' ( the top thing u use) have been removed due to accidents happening with them, where when you bounce on them during a rapell there's a not so small chance of them 'unclipping' themselves. But as you're using a second clip below, looks like it should be fine. As I like to bolt and replace myself, is there a specific reason you're not using a single big beaner connected to the two bolts with chains? When I'm cheaping out on anchors, I just put two maillon rapides on each and leave it at that :D Keep crushing and sending! PS: Take 5 minutes and put a profile picture on your youtube channel 😂
Hey Max, Thanks for the thoughts. Re: Tyrol accidents, are you sure it is the same piece of gear and not a "open shut" similar to the Fixe Super Shut. I will see if I can look up those accidents but not speaking Italian would love it if you could send me some of those reports. Having lowered and reppelled on single rams horns hundreds of times I have a hard time believing a "bounce" on rappell could make the rope come out. Re: Single 'biner on chains anchor, I like redudancy. It is easy for a single 'biner expecially on chains to turn and pinch the rope against the rock unless the anchor location is steep enough for the gear to hang free. Happy climbing bobbyhutton1989 at gmail PS. profile pic incoming. Thanks. Also in the US you can get yourself a lot of hate mispelling 'biner the way you did.
Great video! I came across this set up on a climb at Red Rock, NV and was like, "woah - what's this?" haha. I quickly figured it out and was comfortable using it. Thanks for providing this detail and your thoughts behind choosing this over musseys. Couple questions for you.... any concerns if the pigtail was installed backwards? with the spine facing climber instead of rock? I'm assuming not, but thought I would ask... Secondly, can the pigtails be safely added to a chain or just the bolt? Thanks again.
I think it will be harder for the climber to clip if the rams horn is "backwards". Less stable as well for what it is worth. Yes I see pigtails on chains as well. I don't see down sides if you can't avoid using chain.
Thanks Bobby, I just don't understand what is so beneficial with this setup opposing to a regular carabiner. I understand it's cheap (Maybe this reason is enough). Do you think the rope could get stuck in between the two horns( when pulling down)? Looks way more complicated to clip.
It shines in a vertical anchor bc it sits flat against the rock. A carabiner or mussy hook in that setup will easily turn and can pinch the rope against the rock, unless the hooks are hanging free on steep rock. We have all cliped thousands of carabiners so we are used to the action but mechanically it is simpler to clip a rams horn one handed. You just slip the rope behind each horn. As opposed to controlling the carabiner, controlling the rope and then forcing the rope past the gate. Like anything if you do it wrong enough you can screw it up. It is possible to wedge a rope between the rams horn. then it is pinched and only on one side, so you fix it.
The realities of rope gymnastics resulting in unclipping make those manipulations inconceivable, unless it were done right there next to the pieces. From below, the rope tension and length make any upward or sideways loading nearly impossible. The pigtail withstanding full FF2 loads makes its ordinary use in rappel/toproping bomber.
I don't think that is likely. Aluminum is softer than steel. Notice that it is your quick draws that get chewed on by bolts during big falls, not the other way around. Also I don't believe the round portion of a carabiner sitting on a round portion of a rams horn is likely to create burs.
Accident report from years back: This was probably caused by lack of communication and an idiot belayer with a grigri. The climber got to the top of a route, he and the belayer didn't know there would be a pigs tail. I think the belayer assumed the climber was safe and would be a while rethreading the anchor so let go of the deadrope. The anchor was a pigstail so the climber just put the rope in it then let go of the rock to be lowered, the top rope fall scenario and rope drag from drawers meant the grigri didn't catch so he decked. I was climbing next to them at the time so all I noticed happening was rope slipping through too quickly and people screaming so my account is entirely peiced together from other people. I think the main takeaway from this is just leave the climber on belay, it's literally zero effort. Also grigris are death traps...
I'm not the best with terminology so bear with me on explaining this 2 pitch sport climb where you can't walk off. First anchor was hanger- quick link- mussy hook. We get there, make an anchor with my gear, carabiners into the quick links. Then I go the top and it's what they're calling "sport shuts" on MP, it's 2 closely bolted shuts directly into the wall with a gate on top. How am I supposed to make an anchor on these to bring up the 2nd? I don't think I should be putting carabiners into them for my PAS or anchor (metal on metal dinging up where ropes go and ppl get lowered) plus switching to rap would be a bit messy. I figure the design intent was to take turns leading, not belay from above. It was Head Wound at Echo cliffs. Thanks maybe this can be a video idea for you
Good question. Personally I am glad most route equippers have moved away from using shuts as they cause me some uncertainty as well. If I were in that situation I would treat the shuts as bolts, and be careful to not be above them or let the anchor move too much. Pretty easy on most routes, but I would be watching as I belayed the second. I haven't seen a shut (even very worn ones) that would be likely to damage to a carabiner under a 1 person TR load, most bolt hangers are way sharper. Your terminology was perfectly clear. Hope my thoughts are helpful.
It would be pretty awesome to see those two flare outs have non locking gates connected to the main spine. That would take care of the worry of the rope coming out. Though that would create difficulties installing and your back to square one. Cool idea. This would only be beneficial for sport climbing. This would not be beneficial in multi-pitch. At some point you have to get well versed in technical systems to go play in the mountains. Not sure how I feel fully about this design, but is simple and safe. So can’t knock it too much. If I’m being honest, I don’t like the aesthetic of it.
No idea what you mean by flare outs. Definitely a single pitch anchor. Rappelling multi pitch requires you to be untied already so open systems make less sense. I might enjoy the technical rope work side of the sport more than the climbing, but some people just like going up rocks and open systems like this make it more efficient to fit lots more climbing into a day.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Thanks for replying! I don't know what to call the flare outs, but its the curved part that points back towards the rock. The two bull horn looking things. If those had gates on them that attached back to the spine, that would add that security you were talking about in the wild scenario of high winds. But I definitely think this system is safe as is for sure. You're doing great work! I'll be following the channel for sure!
I really like your videos! Thanks! But in my opinion the red carabiner might be loaded in a strange way. Would be interesting to see if it makes a differende - just in case you have a friend with a pulling machine ;) Sure it's good enough but as far as i'm concerned i would put the red carabiner directly into the hanger of the pigstail (under the pigstail ofc). Those things are used often in my prefered areas like Frankenjura. They see a lot of traffic here and it is frowned upon to toprope on them because in routes that people like they wear out fast and it's expensive to change them so often on so many routes. The rule is that the first climber puts his gear in, everyone else uses that gear to lower or toprope and the last climber of the group gets lowered on the pigstail.
@@bobbyhutton1989 actually i would have cared to hear your opinion because you seem really competent to me.. But nvm i guess. Still thanks for your videos!
@@as3fawf Forgive the snark. I wouldn't have included it in the video if I had any concerns about the strength. I probably wouldn't put a D carabiner in that spot, but an HMS is perfectly fine in that orientation in my opinion and experience.
Quick question (I don’t believe its been asked yet) When cleaning, or perhaps belaying for another pitch, where would you suggest climbers clip their PAS into? In this setup, I’d think that I’d want to be clipped into the higher bolt, but I wouldn’t want my gear binding or getting in the way of the ram horn. Additionally, for building the top rope anchor, you show clipping a locker into the ram horn; I don’t recall if you and Ryan ever discussed metal on metal where the rope may pass through (all the micro-fractures discussion and whatnot) but wouldn’t that be less than ideal, at least once the ram horn starts to wear down?
Clip wherever it makes sense. It will depend a lot on your stance and the anchor position. In my opinion metal on metal being bad is vastly over emphasized. Think about your quickdraws. In a fall you could put 4 or 5 times the force of a TR on them on a bolt that is way sharper than a ramshorn should be allowed to get. I hope that helps answer your question.
It happens fairly regularly at certain areas. Off the top of my head I can think of 8 routes that I have had to replace lower off hardware that I either replaced or upgraded initially. At the same area my friend had all the hangers stolen off a route he installed.
This is quite common here in Germany, but it's not the norm. Their intended use is for beginner-friendly toprope setups. They're less safe than other setups, so the added clip for redundancy is a must. You should not rappel on those, people have died doing that.
Am I missing something here? You aren't using a sling or cordette to split the load evenly between the two anchor points? Surely if the top bolt fails the lower one e is shock loaded and likely to fail too? I was always taught to build a belay anchor so that load is split equally with an angle of no more than 60 degrees - even if ots using bolts rather than trad gear.
You say equalising is overrated??? Particularly if the hear "won't fail"??? Surely you equalise precisely for that 1 in 1/1000 chance a bolt does in fact fail?
Modern bolts are at minimum 5 times stronger than any load you could put on them top roping. If one happened to fail your dynamic rope would absorb most of the force. So yes, strength wise in the context of top roping on modern climbing bolts, equalizing is overrated.
Fine for toproping yes - when you started talking about "building anchors" I presumed you meant this setup was safe as a belay anchor for another pitch. I would never want to take a big fall on that anchor setup while placing the initial gear above my belyaer. So yes - equalising is redundant... if you are only toproping. When lead climbing a multi pitch route it is definitely essential.
It reduces the number of steps and comands to set up a decent. Lowering off becomes the default, removing the confusion if someone is going to rappell. Instead of a 5 minute process of clip in, slack, more slack, clip rope to harness, untie, thread, retie, untie rope from harness, take ok lower; it becomes clip, clip, take, lower. You can still miscommunicate if you want tho. Sorry for tge long reply, it kinda blew my mind that the advantages weren't obvious.
Totally, in in theory. Do you have any examples of that happening? Vertical anchors are very common in Europe, especially France. I haven't come across any failures such as you describe . In the lower off scenario these are designed for there will be meters of climbing rope in the system. Dynamic climbing rope which is designed to absorb shock. Your loads in that scenario are also very low compared to the strength of a bolt.
@@bobbyhutton1989 All valid points…and I’ve seen those in Europe and some sport areas and haven’t personally seen any fail with bolts (though I have seen old bolts shear and fail but that’s a diff gen of gear). In early 90s, I did SAR for a team that had gear anchor failure…with one piece failing leading the the second failing (mistakes of course included not being equalized and only have two). And from my days as a big wall rat, I recall hearing from the partner of someone who was dared to sleep off a single hook in his portaledge…with a zero alien close but unweighted as back-up (of course he and the ledge were backed up to the real bomber anchor but purposely done so with 15ft of slack for the bet…all stupid I agree but a very amusing story…esp since in the middle of the night the hook failed when he turned in his sleep…shock loaded the alien on static cord…and the guy fell…with his ledge/gear…until the real anchor caught him! The result was a lost sleeping bag, a nights sleep and perhaps his undies…in addition to the bet). While I love that story to this day…it really doesn’t refute your point. (And I’ve seen zero aliens take huge whoppers so I always assumed it wasn’t ideally seated) And frankly…without dynamic loading, offset bolt anchors are probably fine and can make rope retrieval easier in some situations. But I’m a dinosaur from a trad and aid era..who has much more faith in a cam i put in that a bolt of indeterminate age/quality/skill of placement. And I’m still uncomfortable if I’m honest with a two piece anchor even if in a place like Smith with my kids. Rational…maybe not but it’s hard to teach an old dog the new. Plus my goal was always to experience amazing places with as little chance of danger as possible. So I always like three or more as a rule…preferably with something I put in rather than Sir Edmund Hillary…or Joe gym climber (not that competent sport climbers that actually know how to bolt don’t do it right…I just know not everyone does) But it wasn’t really meant as a critique of you and I appreciate your efforts to teach the newer generation safe techniques and think through the physics of it all…keep it up and keep climbing! I’m no expert but I’m glad folks like you make efforts to teach us all how to enjoy climbing more safely!
Why noe just encourage people to use their own gear to climb on....lowering should be done with no rope moving, so it can be done in a chain. Top-Roping is just bad in these anyway :-/ I never never never never would top-rope in this configuration. Always clip my own carabiners or quick-draws to not damage the gear placed by nice people and minimize the need to replace. I have seen routes in frankenjura with these cut half through. Just use your own gear for top-roping.
if there are ANY chances that a rope could come out, that piece of equipment should NEVER be used. period. man, there is no need to keep trying to complicate things, just use a damn locking D ring like has been standard for decades. its absolutely fool proof and there is no way possible for the rope to come out.
![เจ็บที่ยังฮัก - ม่อน วรวิทย์ [ Official Mv ] จอนนี่มิวสิค](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KALIGSRSjFs/mqdefault.jpg)
"If that happened to you, it's just your time" 😂😂my new favourite phrase for "What if freak accident"
1:34
No doubt!
Note that if this happens to you, you’re not going to die or anything. You’ll be on the backup carabineer, that’s why it is there.
You’ll probably be scared, but alive. That’s what matters.
We used to say, "If that happens, you're having a bad day"
This looks crazy bomber. I learned to climb where the etiquette was to rapp because "lowering wears out the chains" but that's only a problem when it's so hard and expensive to replace the chains that no one wants to do it. If a crag was set up with these, and 10% of climbers carried an extra pigtail, I'd think it would make anchor maintenance happen naturally. Swapping these seems idiotproof.
Well said.
Finally I accidentally discovered Bobby's channel of Bob Ross esque ASMR bolting and climbing advice 🙌 The algorithm gods have spoken! Awesome topic 👍
ha ha ha. The algorithm gods have been kind.
Hell yeah Bobby! This is a rad system. At first I was thinking why not connect the bolt with the rams horn to another bolt with a chain (for redundancy) but this system is superior. No chain is required, there is added redundancy if you top rope directly through it, and there's something to clip quickly when you first arrive. Totally brilliant.
I used a similar system to what you describe but got really tired if installing chain. This new system is so much lower profile. With this and glue ins you could hike right past the climbs.
Thanks Bobby I like how you explained the reasons why you use this system. Its a good video for when I see this system out in the wild.
Thanks Jonathan, Spent so much time talking about this in person and in posts that I figured I might as well record my thoughts. When I climb with people I usually don't tell people how to use it and every one has figured it out quickly.
Hey Bobby, so glad the algorithm just started sending me your channel. Instant subscriber, thanks.
In the bigger picture, I think it’s videos and education like this that will start to encourage people to think that clipping, lowering, and top roping off of fixed hardware rigged like this is more acceptable.
If modern hardware like this can eliminate the entire process of untying from the end of the rope, then I think the overall benefit from that far outweighs the potential downsides.
Thank you for sharing creative modern techniques, and best of luck with your channel. ❤️
Thanks for Subscribing.
Thats the goal. It really stesses me out seeing people get coached thru cleaning an anchor by some who also doesn't understand the process bc they heard someone say NEVER use the permanent hardware. No, we installed those mussy hooks so you could avoid that step if you didn't know how to do it.
Bobby I love when u give ur opinion on a topic, You have integrity and I feel really safe and I believe what you say,an have our safty first an foremost ,keep up the videos love them 👍
I appreciate that, thank you.
This looks great. I found the traditional method of cleaning and rappelling really discouraging when I first started climbing outside. Especially when a dirtbag like me spent their gym membership on gear and not a course. First thing I learned from my lead was how many people die rappelling. And I'm sure many of them did take a course. Anyway thanks for furthering the sport, I'm glad you are nerdy about these things.
Yeah, it is a big learning curve where failure means a serious accident. Definitely an important skill to know but way better to learn on the ground.
When I started climbing there weren't many gyms. There weren't many climbers either. Most of my education came from a mentor I climbed with outdoors and from reading classics like Freedom of the Hills and John Long's books.
The sport has certainly changed. The other day I met a climber who could lead 5.10 and climb 5.12 on TR, but he'd never climbed outdoors. I was shocked. We have great rock 2 hours from where I live. I don't get it, but to each his or her own.
Whoa stoked to see you have your own channel, love all the real world knowledge/resting/experience you are sharing! Hugely helpful!
Thanks for the Stoke Jdub!
Thanks Bobby, that's really slick. If I do any development or re-bolting in my area I'm definitely going to consider this system. I'd love to see more videos from you!
Thanks. Its not the solution for every place but I have been happy with the feed back from climbers who have used it.
another solid video!! genuinely answered all my questions for this set up, especially sourcing reputable companies to buy from!
Glad it was helpful!
Love the channel, love the safety innovations, the ingenuity is so satisfying haha
Glad you enjoy it.
These videos are gold! Thanks Bobby you are a treasure
Glad you like them!
I like it. Looks like a good system. I see the advantages. I think two bolts side by side with rap rings are also good enough. If I encountered this at the top of a route though I'd be completely comfortable using it.
The two rap ring system still has its place. I install them all the time on multi pitch routes or single pitch that won't get climbed often.
I remember the first time I came across one of those (at Portland in the UK) I was like what the hell is this. They make alot of sense though, I hate seeing new climbers being instructed from the ground on lowering off.
I think many people have that reaction.
Same, instant stress when I hear "you want me to untie from the rope?!"
Really like both of your videos going over details of how these things work. Looking to climb more outdoors so enjoying all the info
Thanks, hope you get out climbing soon.
Nice explanation, myself and my regular(ish) climbing partner haven't come across this yet, and as the more experienced/committed I like to anticipate what we may have to deal with. This looks like a very good system with few drawbacks, I'll be pinging the link to this video over. 👍
Sweet. Currently this is an uncommon anchor but more people are starting to install similar systems.
@@bobbyhutton1989 yeah much better for new climbers than trying to remember how to rethread rings that are tight, or like we have in some places here in the UK fixed screwgate locking carabiners (which will be locked by the climber, then can seize). I recall climbing an easy route then belaying my mate who was shouting down at me "why the hell did you lock them!?!?" Panic mode set in a bit there but all was good in the end. Thanks for the reply. 👍
Hey Bobby, awesome to see you putting out your own vids! This is such great info and you've got an instant subscriber here. Small suggestion for audio production--it would be worthwhile to do some compression and/or normalize the audio to keep the overall level loud enough for different systems. Easy to do after editing, but worth making sure different individual clips are at the same average loudness as well. Can't wait to see what else is coming up!
Welcome aboard. Glad you enjoyed it.
I did some leveling on this video, but still learning. I found some AI program for my later videos that really helps with the sound. Not perfect but I am also not paying a professional to do my audio. I have a mic in the mail.
Easily the best anchor setup in almost any scenario. Even when rock quality dictates the bolts be side by side I will now put a chain on one bolt so as to turn it into a vertical anchor. As you noted in the video, the USS steel carabiners have a pretty stiff gate and as a result are pretty hard to clip with one hand. I recommend that people clip the top lower off first in most cases, then have your belayer take your weight before clipping the steel carabiner. People who don't know get annoyed when they are gripped and desperately trying to clip the lower carabiner.
Hey Chris, I hear you are the guy to talk to about the Mill.
I haven’t found them to be "that”stiff. Might have to do with clipping technique. But yes clip the rams horn first if you need too.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Quite a few people have told me they had trouble clipping them, but you're right: a lot of people aren't great at clipping. Climbers are just used to the ease of clipping a mussy I suppose. And yes, feel free to message me if you want beta for the Mill...
Loving the videos on the new channel!! Super stoked to see more!
Thank you! More to come.
i like that its 1- fast to use, no fumbling around with opposing carabiner like in gyms and 2- open unlike a ring (or locked frozen carabiner), so the climber doesnt need to do "the maneuver" (anchor themselves, feed rope into the ring, tie figure8onabight, carabine it to harness, untie original figure8, untie anchor) which is a chance to make dangerous mistakes, and 3- obviously easier and cheaper to replace in high use/corrosion environment
Those where the criteria I was trying to meet.
Hey Bobby, I was climbing in Italy and in one route, just before the Crux, there was a Horn installed to rappell from, if you can't send the line. But I was very insecure how i should clip my quickdraw in the same anker as this horn. If I installed it behind, it opened the gate and on the top I think it would bend the quickdraw if I took a big whipper. I then installed an HMS carabiner behind the horn, so the gate stays closed and cliped the rope there. What would you do in this situation? If you have time, could you do some testing? Maybe with @HowNot2 ?
Keep up the good work.
Best, Steve
Interesting. Wierd that the rams horn would open you quickdraw gate just sitting on it. In hangers I try to keep whatever gear is loaded closest to the wall to avoid the bending you mention and traping other gear underneath it.
I would have done the same thing, use a locking carabiner underneath the rams.
Stoked for your channel, Bobby! Keep the great content coming
Thanks Ricky
Good to see you on your own channel, and this is a very cool anchor!
I’m unsure about the likelihood of rust welding the gate on the carabiner shut?
Some 200-300 days of rain a year in my case for the estimate.
Where ever you live is not for me, I am getting depressed after the last 3 weeks of rain and snow here.
Do you see rust on stainless steel there? All the components of those US Stainless hooks shown in the video are stainless to the best of my knowledge.
Glad to see you have your own channel. I like your perspective on things
Welcome aboard! I appreciate the kind words.
I've seen them in some places in Germany. Here, they are usually used without a backup when lowering but the metal ends are usually chosen in a way that they press against the rock and there is no distance. Less experienced climbers refuse to use them often times as they aren't sure if they use them correctly, though.
The ones I use are made by Bolt Products in Germany.
Thanks for the great content! Love watching your stuff on bolting
Glad you enjoy it! Lots more bolting content once the snow melts.
For the point #3 "Double Clip" concern, on one vertical anchor I put hardware on, I went with a mallion + D shackle + 2 opposing closed-eye wiregate carabineer (all SS) on the bottom bolt. A little more money in hardware, but provides extra security if that's what someone is aiming for.
Interesting. I would love to see a picture. I guess you would clip the other/top piece before you tried to clip the two carabiners.
it is easy to add a regular locking carabiner in the manner you describe, temporarily, for top roping. For just one lower, I am really not concerned bc you are wieghted the whole time and there is minimal back and forth. It is TRing thru the anchors that I see double clipping happening.
Another great video Bobby. Thanks for the good content.
You are very welcome. Thanks for watching.
Great work, love your insights!
Thanks!
Still haven't run into a rams horn in the wild, but I'm a big fan of these vertically offset anchors in general. Another big advantage is they can have a lower visual impact, since you don't have a bunch of SS chain connecting bolts. Easier on the wallet too!
Absolutely. Huge difference in visibility.
I got really funned out on chain as you waste so much cutting it to length and you never know the best length so you carry 4 lengths just to make sure you have the right one.
I have come across the ramshorn a few times as a climber, and found them easy to use. Add in the cost and install efficiencies you mention, and it seems like a great choice for bolting.
First time I ever encountered rams horns in the wild was the first time I ever climbed sport outdoors (Vent 5, Mickey's Beach, California). Led to a little confusion at first, but I found them intuitive and was able to correctly rig them and lower off. I'm a fan.
Our local cliff had them for 25+ years. They work well.
My crusty old local gym used them, but when they moved locations they switched to the fixed carabiners
Bobby! These look awesome and super bomber :) Love the simplicity and security! I wanted to just gently suggest that the metal ziptie security recommendation might be rough on the rope. That said I've been following your stuff for a while now and I trust you to know what's going to cause issues in your installs. I hope to someday find some of your bolts in the wild!
I haven't had to deal with people stealing these yet. Probably the only anchor hardware type that hasn't been stolen off anchors I have installed.
@@bobbyhutton1989 so happy to hear that :) just make me feel even better about the climbing community as a whole!
A bunch of regions in Europe (Frankenjura for one) use only the single pigtail without the backup biner. (Guess they have done that since the beginning of sport climbing). Obviously not ideal from modern safety standards, but seems to have few enough accidents for people to occasionally still installing new routes with only the one.
Yes, I have heard that. I haven't climbed there yet, but it does make me feel more secure with my set up.
Bourgogne climbing crags in France are equipped with a single pigtail anchor
Also at Portland, UK a major sport climbing destination. I rather like them.
Super good enough, especially for a beginner crag where climbers may not be familiar with the Petzl tie off. Thanks Bobby.
Glad you liked it!
We use this anchor chained to 2 bolts on many crags and i have seen it in climbing gyms as well. If you dont trust this, you should reconsider having climbing as a hobby 😁
For sure.
Excellent looking setup. Huge fan of easily replaceable permagear with lower visual impact. For the toprope setup, I’d just clip into the ss and then throw a single aluminum in the ramshorn for the majority of the wear.
But, if more places had anything like this I’d bring more steel gear with me.
It is nice to see that easily replacable wear hardware is becoming the norm in many places.
I really like this anchor, but if TR with my own gear, I'd prefer keeping the rams horn clear (where the red locker is) so that my second can easily move the rope before removing anything. Having to move that locker potentially puts the 2nd on one piece if they forget to connect directly to the top bolt.
For sure. Lots of ways to set up a TR on that system.
They look great! Nice video. It'll be the operator that makes an error before those things fail.
Thanks. Hard to fool proof everything, but hopefully they will find this system harder to make errors.
Any opinion of using spliced amsteel to resling cams?
It would be particularly advantageous for dmm dragons as the splice would be able to slide through the eyes.
Normally I just use 6mm accessory cord tied with double fisherman's. Climbers seem to literally never use amsteel type cord, it just doesn't make sense, highliners and sailors trust their lives to it. Maybe it seems too diy for climbers (we have clearly lost our way somewhere), but it also doesn't seem any different to tying a knot in cord other than being a different skill to actually do it.
Ryan is the Amsteel guy.
First time I came across these ram's horns anchors they were used as a pair and installed level with each other about 8-10 inches apart or so. It looked like a good configuration as far as safety and ease of replacement when they do eventually wear out. Have you tried out that configuration yet and what are your thoughts on that vs. the setup in the video?
One thing that I can think of is that you can clip into that lower SS carabiner easier (more naturally) than a ram's horn for the leader, especially if the clipping position and hold isn't great.
Haven't used that set up. Probably works great. Where dod you see that set up?
It requires you to replace 2 pieces. Though it may wear longer. There is a common perception that when anchor pieces are seperated it twists the rope. Which is why many anchors use chain to bring bring the two points together. Of course if and how much the rope gets twisted depends on a lot of factors.
@@bobbyhutton1989 IIRC it was in Rumney, NH. The developers and maintainers there have been a fan of the ram's horns for a while now.
@@alexnone5720 Those guys put in an inspiring amount of work. One of them runs the US distribution for Bolt Products. So I get my rams horns thru him. I believe they are mostly retro fitting existing anchors.
@@beaniebobh1 Getting out and traveling more has made me appreciate just how well the bolts and anchors in Rumney were maintained and replaced as necessary.
They should have good feedback on how well they are holding up on the popular routes and feedback they've been getting from the regulars there on dual ram's horns vs mussies or other anchors.
I love it, flexible coat hook anchor! Simplicity is elegant!
Hmm not sure I understand the description "flexible coat hook". But I do like the simplicity of this set up.
I bought stainless 5 piece bolts because I wanted to setup some top rope routes near my house. This seems like a pretty solid setup to use. Now I just need to learn more about installing them, preferably with someone who knows what they’re doing rather than just going off of TH-cam Achademy lol
We did a video about those bolts recently on Hownot2. Definitely practice where it doesn't matter first as I have found them to finicky to place.
"it's just your time"....always potential for that
These mostly get used in beginners areas or popular routes here. If you haven't seen Monster Hooks they are also sometimes used and are intended as single point anchors, slightly more complex to thread without getting twisted, but once you do it right they are interesting!
I have never seen the monster hooks in person, only on the Bolt Products website. Wierdly someone sent me a photo of one right about the time you commented.
Nice, I get a lot of my top anchor gear from US Stainless as well. They should market to climbers!
Good stuff. I think they are capturing our business without marketing.
These seem so much easier to use and replace than the usual chain link and ring anchors that I'm slightly surprised that I haven't come across any IRL even on really new routes. Would much prefer to just "slap the rope in" and be ready for lowering instead of hooking up to the anchor with PAS, yell to belayer that you're safe and clearing the anchor, pass the rope through the rings, tie a fig8 on a bite, connect that to your harness with locking carabiner, untie your main fig8 knot from the harness, yell to belayer to take you, detach PAS, yell that you're ready to be lowered.
Then again didn't know these existed before this video so maybe it's just not widely known around here.
My thoughts exactly.
I believe variations are more common in Europe. We are seeing the mussy hook version of open system Anchors more in single pitch crags on the West Coast.
Thanks Bobby! Happy new year :)
Same to you!
Great video, I'm super glad to find your channel and be able to watch your videos!
What's your opinion on connecting the two bolts with a chain? Where I climb it's standard procedure (bolters seem to purchase/prepare anchor sets with two bolts connected with a chain, usually with 2 carabiners not unlike what you have on your lower bolt), although I'm not 100% sure why.
I suppose one scenario where it could be useful is in an event of a rock failure, which you mentioned, the rock would slide along the rope (connected by the pigtail) until it hits somebody. Similarly, if a bolt fails it could be useful to keep the components of an anchor together.
Of course rock failure is unlikely, but as I'm unfamiliar with the relative prices of a chain, bolts, quicklinks and so on it seems possible that it's worth it to add a chain to hold the whole anchor together in the event of one bolt failing or the rock failing on one bolt.
Thanks in advance for replying, if you do!
I assume you are talking about a veritcal set up where the bolt with the lower off hardware is backed up by a chain to a higher bolt? If the hardware is strong enough it works great.
Bolt placements wise it is a bit limiting as tell you how far apart the bolts need to be. That can be challenging in some rock types.
Using stainless chain that last and doesn't stain the rock can add 75% to the anchor cost. it also makes the anchor way more visible.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Yes, that's exactly it! Thank you very much for the reply.
Great video! Care to explain the reasoning behind the orientation (upside down/upside up) of the pear shaped carabiners in the last setup? I'm guessing there's a thought behind it.
Thanks. The rams horn was a bit think for the bottom of the HMS to sit flush. Of course you could clip it under the rams horn and orient it so the gate screws down. Lots of ways to make it work.
Hey bobby,
First of all, great videos you're putting out!
Secondly, in tyrol all the 'baskets' ( the top thing u use) have been removed due to accidents happening with them, where when you bounce on them during a rapell there's a not so small chance of them 'unclipping' themselves. But as you're using a second clip below, looks like it should be fine.
As I like to bolt and replace myself, is there a specific reason you're not using a single big beaner connected to the two bolts with chains? When I'm cheaping out on anchors, I just put two maillon rapides on each and leave it at that :D
Keep crushing and sending!
PS: Take 5 minutes and put a profile picture on your youtube channel 😂
Hey Max,
Thanks for the thoughts.
Re: Tyrol accidents, are you sure it is the same piece of gear and not a "open shut" similar to the Fixe Super Shut. I will see if I can look up those accidents but not speaking Italian would love it if you could send me some of those reports.
Having lowered and reppelled on single rams horns hundreds of times I have a hard time believing a "bounce" on rappell could make the rope come out.
Re: Single 'biner on chains anchor, I like redudancy. It is easy for a single 'biner expecially on chains to turn and pinch the rope against the rock unless the anchor location is steep enough for the gear to hang free.
Happy climbing
bobbyhutton1989 at gmail
PS. profile pic incoming. Thanks. Also in the US you can get yourself a lot of hate mispelling 'biner the way you did.
The rope matching your sweater is a good tough 😅
With me anything matching anything is entirely coincidental.
Great video! I came across this set up on a climb at Red Rock, NV and was like, "woah - what's this?" haha. I quickly figured it out and was comfortable using it. Thanks for providing this detail and your thoughts behind choosing this over musseys. Couple questions for you.... any concerns if the pigtail was installed backwards? with the spine facing climber instead of rock? I'm assuming not, but thought I would ask... Secondly, can the pigtails be safely added to a chain or just the bolt? Thanks again.
I think it will be harder for the climber to clip if the rams horn is "backwards". Less stable as well for what it is worth.
Yes I see pigtails on chains as well. I don't see down sides if you can't avoid using chain.
@@bobbyhutton1989 thank you!
Awesome! Hope you Keep the videos coming. Much wisdom to impart on us
Thanks. I have some ideas for videos I would find interesting.
I have a similar horn on the mast of my sailboat to reef the sail. Very strong & reliable
Interesting. Any idea on the product name?
Hi Bobby! Nice vid. Interesting set up. Keep it going 💪🏽
Hey, thanks!
I used that in the wild. Nothing to complain here. Worked fine.
Sweet.
Love the info, thanks Bobby!
Glad you enjoyed it.
Nice job! Looking forward to more nerd talk for climbing :)
ha ha ha. Thanks!
Keep the videos coming!🤘🏼
That's the plan!
Thank you bobby, I appreciate your insights.
Any time
Thanks Bobby,
I just don't understand what is so beneficial with this setup opposing to a regular carabiner.
I understand it's cheap (Maybe this reason is enough).
Do you think the rope could get stuck in between the two horns( when pulling down)?
Looks way more complicated to clip.
It shines in a vertical anchor bc it sits flat against the rock. A carabiner or mussy hook in that setup will easily turn and can pinch the rope against the rock, unless the hooks are hanging free on steep rock.
We have all cliped thousands of carabiners so we are used to the action but mechanically it is simpler to clip a rams horn one handed. You just slip the rope behind each horn. As opposed to controlling the carabiner, controlling the rope and then forcing the rope past the gate.
Like anything if you do it wrong enough you can screw it up. It is possible to wedge a rope between the rams horn. then it is pinched and only on one side, so you fix it.
Also people are less likely to steal a ram horn.
Based Bobby
Hey Bobby super cool to see you with your own channel. Keep up the awesome teaching!!
Hey, thanks!
Metal climbing Rams have been used for years in the Bavarian Alps
Yup, they are just starting to cross the ocean in the last 10 years.
The realities of rope gymnastics resulting in unclipping make those manipulations inconceivable, unless it were done right there next to the pieces. From below, the rope tension and length make any upward or sideways loading nearly impossible. The pigtail withstanding full FF2 loads makes its ordinary use in rappel/toproping bomber.
Those were my thoughts as well.
Nerdier the better, Bobby!
Ha ha ha ha. Careful what you wish for.
In aus we just run hangers at the top. Having something like this as the standard would be soooooo good
It sure helps with the mount of climbing I get done in a day not having to create an another and then clean it.
Hahaha, "it was just your time" haha. Sometimes it is just true 😉
Nothing is Foolproof.
Is there a chance the Alu binners on a top-rope would burr/wear the ram's horn worse than a rope? (what about SS binners?)
I don't think that is likely. Aluminum is softer than steel. Notice that it is your quick draws that get chewed on by bolts during big falls, not the other way around. Also I don't believe the round portion of a carabiner sitting on a round portion of a rams horn is likely to create burs.
Accident report from years back:
This was probably caused by lack of communication and an idiot belayer with a grigri. The climber got to the top of a route, he and the belayer didn't know there would be a pigs tail. I think the belayer assumed the climber was safe and would be a while rethreading the anchor so let go of the deadrope. The anchor was a pigstail so the climber just put the rope in it then let go of the rock to be lowered, the top rope fall scenario and rope drag from drawers meant the grigri didn't catch so he decked.
I was climbing next to them at the time so all I noticed happening was rope slipping through too quickly and people screaming so my account is entirely peiced together from other people.
I think the main takeaway from this is just leave the climber on belay, it's literally zero effort. Also grigris are death traps...
For sure. If I wrote that report for ANAC I would file it under belayer error.
I'm not the best with terminology so bear with me on explaining this 2 pitch sport climb where you can't walk off. First anchor was hanger- quick link- mussy hook. We get there, make an anchor with my gear, carabiners into the quick links. Then I go the top and it's what they're calling "sport shuts" on MP, it's 2 closely bolted shuts directly into the wall with a gate on top. How am I supposed to make an anchor on these to bring up the 2nd? I don't think I should be putting carabiners into them for my PAS or anchor (metal on metal dinging up where ropes go and ppl get lowered) plus switching to rap would be a bit messy. I figure the design intent was to take turns leading, not belay from above. It was Head Wound at Echo cliffs. Thanks maybe this can be a video idea for you
Good question. Personally I am glad most route equippers have moved away from using shuts as they cause me some uncertainty as well.
If I were in that situation I would treat the shuts as bolts, and be careful to not be above them or let the anchor move too much. Pretty easy on most routes, but I would be watching as I belayed the second. I haven't seen a shut (even very worn ones) that would be likely to damage to a carabiner under a 1 person TR load, most bolt hangers are way sharper.
Your terminology was perfectly clear. Hope my thoughts are helpful.
It would be pretty awesome to see those two flare outs have non locking gates connected to the main spine. That would take care of the worry of the rope coming out. Though that would create difficulties installing and your back to square one. Cool idea. This would only be beneficial for sport climbing. This would not be beneficial in multi-pitch. At some point you have to get well versed in technical systems to go play in the mountains. Not sure how I feel fully about this design, but is simple and safe. So can’t knock it too much. If I’m being honest, I don’t like the aesthetic of it.
No idea what you mean by flare outs.
Definitely a single pitch anchor. Rappelling multi pitch requires you to be untied already so open systems make less sense.
I might enjoy the technical rope work side of the sport more than the climbing, but some people just like going up rocks and open systems like this make it more efficient to fit lots more climbing into a day.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Thanks for replying! I don't know what to call the flare outs, but its the curved part that points back towards the rock. The two bull horn looking things. If those had gates on them that attached back to the spine, that would add that security you were talking about in the wild scenario of high winds. But I definitely think this system is safe as is for sure. You're doing great work! I'll be following the channel for sure!
Did I hear right, Bobby is this your baby, did you make this or help develop the pigs / cows tail, if so, WOW 🧐👍
No, just one of the first people to use this specific setup.
"It's just your time" 😆
That has become my go guiding climbing with kids going thru the "what if?" phase.
Please make more videos like this
I plan to. Do you have any suggestions?
Ha, horns are pretty cool,commonly found in Frankenjura in Germany. Better not to top-rope though.
Like ai said in the video, People are welcome to atR thru the ones i maintain if they want to.
I'm your one thousandth subscriber!!
Wow! That was quick. Thanks!
More Bobby pls !
We will see.
Go Bobby!!!
Thanks Mrs. Jenks
Nice!
Thx
Thank you
You're welcome
Thanks Bobby. Good video, great info. Please try a lavalier mike. Then the background noise of the shackles won't be louder than your voice.
Next purchase.
I really like your videos! Thanks! But in my opinion the red carabiner might be loaded in a strange way. Would be interesting to see if it makes a differende - just in case you have a friend with a pulling machine ;) Sure it's good enough but as far as i'm concerned i would put the red carabiner directly into the hanger of the pigstail (under the pigstail ofc). Those things are used often in my prefered areas like Frankenjura. They see a lot of traffic here and it is frowned upon to toprope on them because in routes that people like they wear out fast and it's expensive to change them so often on so many routes. The rule is that the first climber puts his gear in, everyone else uses that gear to lower or toprope and the last climber of the group gets lowered on the pigstail.
Feel free to be concerned and do it a different way.
@@bobbyhutton1989 actually i would have cared to hear your opinion because you seem really competent to me.. But nvm i guess. Still thanks for your videos!
@@as3fawf Forgive the snark. I wouldn't have included it in the video if I had any concerns about the strength. I probably wouldn't put a D carabiner in that spot, but an HMS is perfectly fine in that orientation in my opinion and experience.
@@bobbyhutton1989 thanks :)
i like it
Quick question (I don’t believe its been asked yet)
When cleaning, or perhaps belaying for another pitch, where would you suggest climbers clip their PAS into? In this setup, I’d think that I’d want to be clipped into the higher bolt, but I wouldn’t want my gear binding or getting in the way of the ram horn.
Additionally, for building the top rope anchor, you show clipping a locker into the ram horn; I don’t recall if you and Ryan ever discussed metal on metal where the rope may pass through (all the micro-fractures discussion and whatnot) but wouldn’t that be less than ideal, at least once the ram horn starts to wear down?
Clip wherever it makes sense. It will depend a lot on your stance and the anchor position.
In my opinion metal on metal being bad is vastly over emphasized. Think about your quickdraws. In a fall you could put 4 or 5 times the force of a TR on them on a bolt that is way sharper than a ramshorn should be allowed to get.
I hope that helps answer your question.
You mentioned theft-is that something that really happens in the wild? Have you had anchor components stolen from any of your routes?
It happens fairly regularly at certain areas. Off the top of my head I can think of 8 routes that I have had to replace lower off hardware that I either replaced or upgraded initially. At the same area my friend had all the hangers stolen off a route he installed.
This is quite common here in Germany, but it's not the norm. Their intended use is for beginner-friendly toprope setups. They're less safe than other setups, so the added clip for redundancy is a must.
You should not rappel on those, people have died doing that.
On a single Rams horn or this set up. If people dying is your metric you shouldn't rappell.
Am I missing something here? You aren't using a sling or cordette to split the load evenly between the two anchor points? Surely if the top bolt fails the lower one e is shock loaded and likely to fail too? I was always taught to build a belay anchor so that load is split equally with an angle of no more than 60 degrees - even if ots using bolts rather than trad gear.
You say equalising is overrated??? Particularly if the hear "won't fail"??? Surely you equalise precisely for that 1 in 1/1000 chance a bolt does in fact fail?
Modern bolts are at minimum 5 times stronger than any load you could put on them top roping. If one happened to fail your dynamic rope would absorb most of the force. So yes, strength wise in the context of top roping on modern climbing bolts, equalizing is overrated.
Fine for toproping yes - when you started talking about "building anchors" I presumed you meant this setup was safe as a belay anchor for another pitch. I would never want to take a big fall on that anchor setup while placing the initial gear above my belyaer. So yes - equalising is redundant... if you are only toproping. When lead climbing a multi pitch route it is definitely essential.
How does this prevent the miscommunication situation?
It reduces the number of steps and comands to set up a decent. Lowering off becomes the default, removing the confusion if someone is going to rappell. Instead of a 5 minute process of clip in, slack, more slack, clip rope to harness, untie, thread, retie, untie rope from harness, take ok lower; it becomes clip, clip, take, lower. You can still miscommunicate if you want tho. Sorry for tge long reply, it kinda blew my mind that the advantages weren't obvious.
Weight is off of one bolt only…so failure would shock load second. Suboptimal anchor design.
Totally, in in theory.
Do you have any examples of that happening? Vertical anchors are very common in Europe, especially France. I haven't come across any failures such as you describe .
In the lower off scenario these are designed for there will be meters of climbing rope in the system. Dynamic climbing rope which is designed to absorb shock.
Your loads in that scenario are also very low compared to the strength of a bolt.
@@bobbyhutton1989 All valid points…and I’ve seen those in Europe and some sport areas and haven’t personally seen any fail with bolts (though I have seen old bolts shear and fail but that’s a diff gen of gear).
In early 90s, I did SAR for a team that had gear anchor failure…with one piece failing leading the the second failing (mistakes of course included not being equalized and only have two).
And from my days as a big wall rat, I recall hearing from the partner of someone who was dared to sleep off a single hook in his portaledge…with a zero alien close but unweighted as back-up (of course he and the ledge were backed up to the real bomber anchor but purposely done so with 15ft of slack for the bet…all stupid I agree but a very amusing story…esp since in the middle of the night the hook failed when he turned in his sleep…shock loaded the alien on static cord…and the guy fell…with his ledge/gear…until the real anchor caught him! The result was a lost sleeping bag, a nights sleep and perhaps his undies…in addition to the bet). While I love that story to this day…it really doesn’t refute your point. (And I’ve seen zero aliens take huge whoppers so I always assumed it wasn’t ideally seated)
And frankly…without dynamic loading, offset bolt anchors are probably fine and can make rope retrieval easier in some situations. But I’m a dinosaur from a trad and aid era..who has much more faith in a cam i put in that a bolt of indeterminate age/quality/skill of placement.
And I’m still uncomfortable if I’m honest with a two piece anchor even if in a place like Smith with my kids. Rational…maybe not but it’s hard to teach an old dog the new.
Plus my goal was always to experience amazing places with as little chance of danger as possible. So I always like three or more as a rule…preferably with something I put in rather than Sir Edmund Hillary…or Joe gym climber (not that competent sport climbers that actually know how to bolt don’t do it right…I just know not everyone does)
But it wasn’t really meant as a critique of you and I appreciate your efforts to teach the newer generation safe techniques and think through the physics of it all…keep it up and keep climbing! I’m no expert but I’m glad folks like you make efforts to teach us all how to enjoy climbing more safely!
Why noe just encourage people to use their own gear to climb on....lowering should be done with no rope moving, so it can be done in a chain. Top-Roping is just bad in these anyway :-/ I never never never never would top-rope in this configuration. Always clip my own carabiners or quick-draws to not damage the gear placed by nice people and minimize the need to replace.
I have seen routes in frankenjura with these cut half through. Just use your own gear for top-roping.
If the rams horns are worn half thru do your part and replace them. Set up you anchors however you want to.
if there are ANY chances that a rope could come out, that piece of equipment should NEVER be used. period. man, there is no need to keep trying to complicate things, just use a damn locking D ring like has been standard for decades. its absolutely fool proof and there is no way possible for the rope to come out.
You need to get out more if you think a locking D is fool proof.