Great work Bobby! Not only are you keeping future climbers safe at that crag, but you're also helping the whole community stay safe by putting this information out there. I've been planning on replacing some old rusty bolts at a small local crag of mine and here I can easily see all the tools and procedures needed. Thank you!
Thanks for the positive feedback. What kind of bolt are you replacing. These button heads are simple, but sime bolts are really irritating to remove. Practice at home.
@@bobbyhutton1989 I'm not sure what they're called exactly. They look like homemade Mussy hooks, except smaller, thinner and shittier. They're glued into the rock, so that'll pose a whole new challenge.
Thanks. Hownot2 is still the primary focus, but it is kinda fun to do the whole process myself of topics I know well. When the weather clears I will do some more route development content.
Just found your channel Bobby..Keep the videos coming...Before you know it you'll pass the monetization threshold and have a nice little side income to help support the rebolting
Thanks for the support over the years. Not sure how much effort I will put into my own content as Ryan and I are still actively creating content. I did enjoy the start to finish process tho.
Pretty amazing that there are super smart, skilled folks like you whose hobby/passion is to keep a bunch of strangers safe. An incredibly valuable public service.
Bobby keep up the great work!! I always like when you made an appearance on HNTH, you seem to have a wealth of knowledge! I hope you are fully recovered from your fall, I read about it in "Accidents 2022" that must have been terrifying. Glad I found the channel.
Thanks. At this point this channel is a little side project to help me understand the process better. Still very involved in hownot2. More complete accident report. th-cam.com/video/4X6LCgvMkt8/w-d-xo.html&feature=share
I know some people worry about nuts backing off, even though minor weather exposure usually helps lock things up, but if you are concerned I'd reccomend staking the nut by using a punch or nailset to knock a bit of the top of the nut towards the stud or peen down a small bit of exposed thread to create a small mechanical lock that is just enough to prevent the nut from being hand removable if somehow loosened, but still allow for removal with a wrench or socket without spinning the stud. Plus it allows stud reuse because removing the old nut will clean up the stake job on the bolt or bring the staked nut past the thread (if alot of threads are exposed i probably wouldn't stake the nut, just a point on the thread) also you should count on using a new nut for hanger replacement to avoid possible frustration if you went a little overboard 😉... Often an unnecessary precaution, but much better in my opinion than using a second nut for a lock that protrudes out or using threadlocker that may cause the stud to spin, especially since zinc plated nuts like to stick themselves to zinc plated bolts after minor exposure without any other noticeable corrosion... But if it's something you're worried about it's easy and basically free to do and is not a likely future problem causer... Maybe just practice at home first before you CREATE a problem by overdoing it on the stake job 😉 a very small shoulder or thread nick goes a long way 👍 Also nylon style locknuts and similar do not weather well and often don't have the same amount of thread engagement, and seeing as the anchor slightly pulling out is the most likely reason for a bolt to be loose regular lock washers, even the amazing nord lock washers won't really help anything in my opinion... Although once again this is an issue that really shouldn't be a concern in most circumstances... Unless you have poorly set wedge anchors and climbers that pass loose nuts without tightening them down or atleast mentioning it to someone else that might want to address the issue 😁
Sounds like a reasonable solution. As you said, good idea to practice at home first. of the 3 or 4 hundred of these bolts I have placed less that 5 have had hangers that have started to spin so far.
Enjoy! Both "Only the young die Brave" and "The man who fell to Earth" have all stainless bolts. I didn't replace them all, just the last few. Expesso also has new bolts as does Pan Dulce.
Thanks for sharing the process Bobby. Happy to have stumbled across your channel, I was just thinking it had been too long since I had seen you in a How Not To video.
Nice work and thanks for the public service. Can you speak to the foot pounds on the nut? You mentioned approximately 20, is there a specific number and do you typically use a torque wrench?
Good questions and you are going to get a long answer. Dewalt says 28 foot pounds. Unless I missed something any outward force on a wedge bolt in good rock is going to engage the bolt more. So I go for the range between solidly engaged, the hanger won't spin, and 28 ft/lbs above which I could damage the bolt. I can't generate more than 28 with that wrench and I have used a torque wrench enough with those bolts to have a pretty accurate idea of the torque I am applying. An interesting side note. There have been several cases of people inspecting bolts with torque wrenches and all the bolts in the crag didn't meet the number in the paperwork. Turns out that number is installation torgue and the bolts relax in the days after tensioning. If I recall correctly several bolts were broken trying to get them up to the installation torgue again.
Amazing work, superb video! I suggest considering a video on establishing a route, specifically about cleaning one. My (super limited) experience involved a crowbar girth-hiched a few times to myself with a double length sling (always felt it would slip), but the crowbar was really effective. I'm wondering what are some climber-friendly (clippable) tools used for cleaning a route, some common practices and so on. It should be common sense, but I only became aware of the weight and danger of the rocks I was wiggling and prying off after one hit my arm on the way down. There was also a constant dilema about if a piece od rock is wiggly enough to warrant prying off. Anyways, it's just an idea for a future video and I look forward to seeing more of you and your videos!
That is definitely on the list when the weather clears. Did you see the rap bolting video we did on Hownot2? My favorite tool for prying stuff off is a Geologist Pick. It will get most of what will come off and for those outliers that move but I can't shift with the hammer I can cime back with a crow bar.
I didn't know you did work in Maine, I was at Sugarloaf to ski last week!! Love your content with Ryan on HowNot2, and I've been enjoying the videos you've been posting here too!! Can't wait to see more. On another note, how can I get into helping replace bad bolts like this?
Different Sugarloaf. This one is in Northern California near Tahoe. Home of the first 5.13. To get involved, figure out if there is anyone in your area currently doing it and offer to help. There are a number of online resources including Hownot2 content that shows different processes. If you can't find a mentor make sure you install some bolts and practice removing them at home. In my experience removing bolts is an exercise in frustration and problem solving, mainly frustration tho.
I‘m amazed by your American ability to just instantly know that 5/16 is bigger than 1/4. I have to convert the 1/4 to 4/16 in my head, then compare to 5/16.
Myself and a few friends took up rock climbing back in the early 70s when we were young and strong. Bolting was seen as cheating back then and anyone doing it was really looked down on. Leave no trace was the rule we had. We did not even use chalk. Not wishing for the good old days just noting the difference. Cheers.
I`m replacing old cold shuts at my local crag & my question is about torque.I understand that 3/8" bolts require 18 FP & 1/2" - 25 FP. I`ve tried a click type torque wrench but often times its hard to feel the "click' & recently over torqued a bolt & had to remove it.I usually use a 6" wrench & tighten with as much force as I can generate. I tap the hanger to see if it has a nice "ring" to it as well as a bounce test.You mentioned when you tightened the bolt you felt it was about 20 FP. Have you checked with a torque wrench to verify ? Thanks for posting this info.
What kind of bolt are you using? Are you replacing the bolt or re using the existing bolt. Many bolts are labeled with a Max torque. As I understand it most torque specs are for initial torque. The bolts stretch under load and torqueing them to thier max torque repeatedly over tume can cause failure.
I love getting to see the be hind the scenes of whats required to keep climbs safe and active! I cant wait to see all the awesome videos you make! one question I had though was what was the set up to get to the bolts, were you able to just hike to the top of the climb and repel down to the bolts similar to what you showed in your setting up a top rope video? Or is there some other trick?
Thanks, Planning to make similar content as I am passionate about the subject. Good Question. This route presented a problem bc I couldn't walk up to the top bc of snow. No one was excited about climbing the route and risking a fall on the bolts. So I used a Solo Aid setup with 2 assisted breaking devices. One on a rope anchored to the ground and the other on a 30 ft piece of rope that I used to pull myself up to the next bolt after I clipped it with a stick clip. I got the idea from climbing TH-camr Tom O'Halloran.
one time I was climbing a route and about halfway up there was a cam that had one of the cables to the release switch break so it wouldn't come out of the crack and it was just stuck there
Question: when you replace anchors do you first setup a toprope or something above the anchor? Or do you use trad anchors or something? I didn't notice your rope as you were actually setting the anchors.
Yes. I set up a rope on the climb. Usually just fixed to the anchor. Then use some sort of ascending system and usually a Grigri to go up and down the rope. It is hard enough to replace bolts without doing it on lead. To get to this anchor I played with a new to me technique. Using two Grigri's I aid soloed up the bolts using a stick clip. I was too busy figuring out the system to film it tho.
Nice work! I’ve been keeping the old stainless smc hangers on routes when the bolts are stainless too. I haven’t seen any corrosion with this combo. Are they concerning enough that I should be removing them?
No, I do that as well. We (Hownot2) tested some recently and they failed at about 20kn. Those break test will get released eventually. I wouldn't put them in a roof placement that was going to see a ton of falls. What pisses me off is the 5/16" split shafts are just hard enough to remove that the hangers get all bent. I know a lot of people that love those hangers for back country routes and emergency bolts.
Good! I was panicking that I was gonna have to go back and replace em. Thankful we don’t have many buttonheads. Mostly 5/16 and 3/8 wedge anchors on the stuff I’ve done. Keep up the good work!
Huh? How would that work? The goal is to reuse the hole and damage the rock as little as possible. I have used Wedge and feathers. My imagination is failing me on how they could be used to remove a bolt with destroying a large chunk of rock. Intrigued to see what you are thinking.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Basically slotting the wedge and feather like your cold chisel there, or really even just using a slotted feather by itself under your chisel to reduce friction on the rock
@@lunchboxproductions1183 Ahh, now I am picking up what you are putting down. I have used multiple slotted tools on longer more stubborn bolts in the way that you describe. Currently I don't think a wedge and feathers would be better that 2 tuning forks as it is still metal sliding on metal but I will think on it. Thanks for the idea!
@@lunchboxproductions1183 A lot of people use a knife blade piton with a groove machined in it. The eye hole allows you to clip it and gives you something to hammer against if it gets stuck. For the 1/4 bolts many people use a lost arrow piton. Once I sized up to what you see in the video all my other tuning forks sit in the shelf.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Oh, thanks for the reply. I guess I tend to be skeptical of regular nuts because I tend to work with in the context of heavy vibrating equipment and machinery where they're liable to back off without a secondary securing method. But yeah, I guess rocks don't usually move much.
You should be able to get an adaptor to place in your hammer drill chuck to use impact sockets.... for at least some hammer drills there are also right-angle chuck adaptors.
And in the iron workers field, there are some specialty impact wrenches for hand hammering and aligning (spuds and spikes) and hammers designed especially for at height & hand power only - would be good for your locations you aren’t allowed power tools.
Thanks for the suggestions, always looking for tools ylto make life easier. They make SDS adapters. I like to feel the torque in my hand, I can also use the wrench as a spacer to pry out the old bolt.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Been too long since have been back to North America, but I recall that a good dig into specialty tools in a Grainger catalogue was always worth it! Some good stone working tools etc in Japan, nowadays with some good Japanese yt channels and social media, language and purchase/shipping, a heck of lot easier than in my day..
If you don’t get a response from Bobby… my guess is cost, ease of installation and possible removal, and it’s granite so these are bomber for many decades.
Great Question. The short answer is assholes. I installed a lot of glue ins at this spot and other zones, but at this spot there is one particular individual who took great offense to my use of glue ins. I never got a coherent reason why. Since this person does help a lot with the trail maintenance and I don't like getting chewed out when I am out climbing I have taken a path of less resistance and am using a super good enough solution.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Dude, I get that!! Benn there with people like that. I just do what is the most right thing and safest.... Let assholes be assholes. Never be forced to concede that wrong is right.
fun idea but have you ever thought about selling the old bolts as mystery packs, there are tons of ppl who for nostalgia purposes or as curios might want the old rusty gear and it could go to buying new bolts :D
Interesting. I give many away to guides or teachers. a large portion if my collection was damaged when my place burned as well. We have a video coming out eventually on HowNit2 where we test a brunch of old hangers.
@@bobbyhutton1989 oh no, I’m sorry to hear that, I just assumed you’d be silly with extra hangers, but I’m glad to hear they are getting put to good use
No worry about the nut coming loose? Pretty much every nut on my airplane is safety wired and most wouldn’t kill me if they came off. More of a thought than a criticism. No doubt you guys know what you are doing. Still, locktite maybe? lol
Check the comments, several discussions about this already. Essentially rocks don't vibrate much and many methods to secure the nut can damage the placement.
@@bobbyhutton1989 thank you for the reply. I do a lot of the same work, but over in Norway. Pretty much the same type of rock, and environment here. My idea is that a bolt installed now should last the longest possible, and that means at least 100 years, I hope. That’s why I go for 316 of higher corrosion resistance level. A so long lifetime should be technically possible, but I fear that in the future climbers will be suspicious of so old bolts. Especially if they look bad, or corroded. I also predict that new equipment, technics and demands from the climbers will force an earlier rebolting than what is technically needed. Keep it the good work, it is inspiring.
@@bobbyhutton1989 like the button heads? Rarely. Even most olds (30-40 years) are 10mm with 50-60 mm depth. But they mostly made of plain steel, and often there’s a difference in the material of the different parts, and then one part starts to rust much faster. Important to have proper quality through all parts. I use glue-ins the most though, even if it’s more work. I think the end result is worth it. Happy new year👍
Good question. The lifetime is too short. The plastic insert degrades relatively quickly. More importantly, you are likely to screw up the placement. As you have to force the nut on the bolt it can spin the bolt in the hole before it is set which might make it impossible to install. So manufacturer doesn't recommend it.
@@bobbyhutton1989 just saw your reply to my comment. This makes sense. Although, working in the aerospace field, I have seen ingenious ways around this. There are such things as metallic self locking nuts that are “ovaled” which grip the bolt or stud without having to use a nylon insert. That way, there is nothing that can wear out overtime. They’re commonly used in exhaust systems where a nylon insert wouldn’t work because of the heat. As for the stud having the possibility of spinning, another way around this would be to have an internal hex cut out in the top of the stud to use an Alan key with in order to prevent the stud from rotating when rotating the nut. Sorry for the lengthy comment! I’m not a climber. I saw your video in my recommended and thought it was great. I appreciate your dedication to your hobby and helping others. Keep it up! Edit: The whole reason for me asking in the first place is because that nut is subject to rotation. There is a lot of weight pulling on that ring, and overtime I am willing to bet there will be enough movement there to eventually loosen that nut which could lead to catastrophe. You have more experience in this particular application than I do, but seeing countless failures in aviation from not using locking hardware just raises red flags for me
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Definitely some things to think about. One solution climbing companies have introduced is putting dimples on the hanger to make it harder for them to spin. Some hangers also have a cone around the hole that compresses and acts as a lock washer. It is a minority of hangers that spin on bolts. Usually it is a placement that takes a fall that swings across the wall. Personally if I see that problem develop I replace the bolt with a glue in that can't spin. But it is enough of a problem in the sport that many people carry small wrenches and there are multi function tools for removing temporary gear that have common bolt head sizes machined into them. The good thing is that you can inspect the bolt before it is used.
I recently replaced some wedge bolts at North Table Mountain in Golden that had nylon lock nuts. I believe the nylon on them degraded like Bobby suggested, and more problematic was the nut and bolt were heavily corroded. The bolts sheared when attempting to loosen. It was hard to tell if the nylon was sticking or the nut was corroded stuck. (These were the anchors, by the way.) Another concern like Bobby mentioned the nylon might make initial torquing challenging. If the bolt becomes loose over time due to whips or freeze thaw cycles, a climber tightening it down may run into the same issue and the whole bolt becomes a spinner. You see this on wedge bolts with regular nuts sometimes where you try and tighten and the whole bolt turns, perhaps because the threads got crossed or filled with debris. The compression and torque occurring from the wedge in back is generally enough to keep a spinner from occurring in solid rock.
Good question. Basically bc I haven't been convinced that they add any value. In Hownot2 tests both the bolts and hangers used in this video are much stronger in shear and tension than the relevant standard without washers. I have installed these bolts with washers and without and have not noticed any difference in which bolts become spinners. There is always a direct cause such as a placement that sees swinging falls. Of less concern, having a washer means there is less bolt in the rock and more stud sticking out above the hanger and in the way.
@@bobbyhutton1989 A couple follow up clarifications: 1) "...are much stronger in shear and tension than the relevant standard without washers." Do you mean: a) the presence or absence of the washer made no difference in the break tests b) it was stronger without the washer (this wouldn't make sense to me, but sometimes engineering things are counter-intuitive to lay folk like me) 2) "...not noticed any difference in which bolts become spinners" Do you mean: a) the bolt itself spins b) the nut loosens so the hanger spins but the bolt is still good Thanks!
@@derekwoods5554 This combo doesn't need the washer to meet the EU strength standards we try to abide by. Hangers spin sometime on placements with washers spin, they also spin on placements without washers. The presence of the washer doesn't seem to have any effect.
@@bobbyhutton1989 the year is 2134. Skynet is fully online. We're now replacing old hardware by drilling for bolts 3cm x 20cm on rock faces to survive. Skynet sent two terminators, now capable of climbing a 5.9. Their mission: to get sick beta for the rest of Skynet.
Sorry if I’m missing something, but the replacements don’t use self locking nuts on the stud to hold the ring on? That doesn’t seem right to me… please correct me if I’m wrong!
Climbing community members, myself and donations to the American Safe Climbing Association. The hardware cost is nothing compared to the tools and the man hours. In this video I installed I installed $15 of hardware.
@@bobbyhutton1989 is maintaining the routes the responsibility of the climbers or do parks do their own maintenance? Or rather, can just anyone do this or is is something that is regulated?
@@Brocuzgodlocdunfamdogson In most places in the US it is not regulated. Smith Rock, Yosemite and Joshua tree are exceptions, mainly in a heavy handed effort to close a loophole that allowed one criminal to get away with sabotaging anchors. Many areas have groups of voulunteers that replace bolts. I am unaware of any State or Federal park in the US that maintains climbing anchors.
Ideally the part of th bolt that is subjected to the shear force shouldn't be threaded.... Another option used in many applications is that they specificy the torque on the bolt to make sure that the friction between the two surfaces is what counteracting the shear force!
@Bobby Hutton Makes bolting easier. Remember you will end up with tennis elbow anyhow. Done a ridiculous amount of anchors, in and out. Outs are worse,massive time suck. Get some star head tungsten granite drill bits also. Cheers keep doing your good work. Dig your sense of responsibility 👏
Yeah getting a bolt out is a massive PITA. I have most of the tools you mention but find it is not worth bringing them on most projects. For 3 bolts I will spend another 5 minutes swinging a hammer vs carrying an extra 20lbs up the hill. Not familiar with the star tungsten bits you mentioned. Google was no help. I really like the 4 cutter carbide tipped bits from Diablo. I stocked up when they where super cheap.
@Bobby Hutton I get it. I am usually doing a couple of hundred at a time! Those diablo bits are good enough for the amount of holes you do. Heat is the enemy. I remember when the first reliable battery rotary hammer drills came out. Went bolt crazy 🤪 on some good climbing routes. Beats lugging a compressor up a wall. Keep up the good work 👏
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for your hard work and dedication to the sport Bobby! Many people love and look up to you, including myself!
I appreciate that. Thanks.
Great work Bobby! Not only are you keeping future climbers safe at that crag, but you're also helping the whole community stay safe by putting this information out there. I've been planning on replacing some old rusty bolts at a small local crag of mine and here I can easily see all the tools and procedures needed. Thank you!
Thanks for the positive feedback. What kind of bolt are you replacing. These button heads are simple, but sime bolts are really irritating to remove. Practice at home.
@@bobbyhutton1989 I'm not sure what they're called exactly. They look like homemade Mussy hooks, except smaller, thinner and shittier. They're glued into the rock, so that'll pose a whole new challenge.
@@Aeronaughtica Send me a photo.
Bobbyhutton1989 gmail
I'm so hype your putting some content out too now. Love the ultra chill route creation/maintenance explanations.
Thanks. Hownot2 is still the primary focus, but it is kinda fun to do the whole process myself of topics I know well. When the weather clears I will do some more route development content.
I think there should be more dedicated keepers of the bolt like you, you do a good thing for the community
There are a lot of super dedicated stewards out there that I really look up too.
Excellent job! Thank you for cleaning up those old bolts Bobby!
Thanks Duane!
Hey Bobby, glad I finally found your channel! Glad to see you are still making the climbing world a better and safer place! Stay safe
Thanks Pappas!
Just found your channel Bobby..Keep the videos coming...Before you know it you'll pass the monetization threshold and have a nice little side income to help support the rebolting
Thanks for the support over the years. Not sure how much effort I will put into my own content as Ryan and I are still actively creating content. I did enjoy the start to finish process tho.
This is a fantastic channel. I look forward to more videos.
Thank you. More to come.
Pretty amazing that there are super smart, skilled folks like you whose hobby/passion is to keep a bunch of strangers safe. An incredibly valuable public service.
Yeah, lots of people putting in a ton of work so we can enjoy good climbing.
Nice Bobby! Thanks for all the hard work you put in improving the climbing!
Thanks Matt! Back at you!
Bobby keep up the great work!! I always like when you made an appearance on HNTH, you seem to have a wealth of knowledge! I hope you are fully recovered from your fall, I read about it in "Accidents 2022" that must have been terrifying. Glad I found the channel.
Thanks. At this point this channel is a little side project to help me understand the process better. Still very involved in hownot2.
More complete accident report.
th-cam.com/video/4X6LCgvMkt8/w-d-xo.html&feature=share
I know some people worry about nuts backing off, even though minor weather exposure usually helps lock things up, but if you are concerned I'd reccomend staking the nut by using a punch or nailset to knock a bit of the top of the nut towards the stud or peen down a small bit of exposed thread to create a small mechanical lock that is just enough to prevent the nut from being hand removable if somehow loosened, but still allow for removal with a wrench or socket without spinning the stud. Plus it allows stud reuse because removing the old nut will clean up the stake job on the bolt or bring the staked nut past the thread (if alot of threads are exposed i probably wouldn't stake the nut, just a point on the thread) also you should count on using a new nut for hanger replacement to avoid possible frustration if you went a little overboard 😉... Often an unnecessary precaution, but much better in my opinion than using a second nut for a lock that protrudes out or using threadlocker that may cause the stud to spin, especially since zinc plated nuts like to stick themselves to zinc plated bolts after minor exposure without any other noticeable corrosion... But if it's something you're worried about it's easy and basically free to do and is not a likely future problem causer... Maybe just practice at home first before you CREATE a problem by overdoing it on the stake job 😉 a very small shoulder or thread nick goes a long way 👍 Also nylon style locknuts and similar do not weather well and often don't have the same amount of thread engagement, and seeing as the anchor slightly pulling out is the most likely reason for a bolt to be loose regular lock washers, even the amazing nord lock washers won't really help anything in my opinion... Although once again this is an issue that really shouldn't be a concern in most circumstances... Unless you have poorly set wedge anchors and climbers that pass loose nuts without tightening them down or atleast mentioning it to someone else that might want to address the issue 😁
Sounds like a reasonable solution. As you said, good idea to practice at home first.
of the 3 or 4 hundred of these bolts I have placed less that 5 have had hangers that have started to spin so far.
I climb there all the time thank you so much for your hard work
Rad! We will see you out there one of these days.
You are the best, Bobby. Thank you for your dedication and efforts!
I appreciate the kind words.
Holy shit bobby has his own channel talk about instantly subscribed
Ha ha. Thank's
1:11 makig the hole "...bigger for bigger hardware..." ha ha
Thanks for the video Bobby.
I have no idea what you mean.
Thanks man!
Excited to go climb it with the new hardware!
Enjoy! Both "Only the young die Brave" and "The man who fell to Earth" have all stainless bolts. I didn't replace them all, just the last few. Expesso also has new bolts as does Pan Dulce.
Glad to find your channel. I hope you find motivation for more content, no doubt I will enjoy it. Cheers.
Thanks. I will keep making content as long as I am enjoying the process.
hey hey Bobby glad to see the vid! awesome stuff
Hey, thanks.
Great job, guys! Keep up the good work
Thanks Ryan.
Awesome Bobby! Congrats on launching your own channel👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks, Appreciate your content.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Thank you 🙏🏻😃
Thanks for sharing the process Bobby. Happy to have stumbled across your channel, I was just thinking it had been too long since I had seen you in a How Not To video.
Thanks. I am still very involved with Hownot2. Ryan live 2 states away so we film together less. I am in the video he released today.
Nice work and thanks for the public service. Can you speak to the foot pounds on the nut? You mentioned approximately 20, is there a specific number and do you typically use a torque wrench?
Good questions and you are going to get a long answer.
Dewalt says 28 foot pounds. Unless I missed something any outward force on a wedge bolt in good rock is going to engage the bolt more. So I go for the range between solidly engaged, the hanger won't spin, and 28 ft/lbs above which I could damage the bolt. I can't generate more than 28 with that wrench and I have used a torque wrench enough with those bolts to have a pretty accurate idea of the torque I am applying.
An interesting side note. There have been several cases of people inspecting bolts with torque wrenches and all the bolts in the crag didn't meet the number in the paperwork. Turns out that number is installation torgue and the bolts relax in the days after tensioning. If I recall correctly several bolts were broken trying to get them up to the installation torgue again.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Thanks, interesting!
You're the Bob Ross of bolting.
Thanks, I guess.
Amazing work, superb video! I suggest considering a video on establishing a route, specifically about cleaning one. My (super limited) experience involved a crowbar girth-hiched a few times to myself with a double length sling (always felt it would slip), but the crowbar was really effective. I'm wondering what are some climber-friendly (clippable) tools used for cleaning a route, some common practices and so on. It should be common sense, but I only became aware of the weight and danger of the rocks I was wiggling and prying off after one hit my arm on the way down.
There was also a constant dilema about if a piece od rock is wiggly enough to warrant prying off.
Anyways, it's just an idea for a future video and I look forward to seeing more of you and your videos!
That is definitely on the list when the weather clears.
Did you see the rap bolting video we did on Hownot2?
My favorite tool for prying stuff off is a Geologist Pick. It will get most of what will come off and for those outliers that move but I can't shift with the hammer I can cime back with a crow bar.
@@bobbyhutton1989 I have but it seems I need a refresher, thank you!
Super, great job Bob!
Thank you kindly!
I didn't know you did work in Maine, I was at Sugarloaf to ski last week!! Love your content with Ryan on HowNot2, and I've been enjoying the videos you've been posting here too!! Can't wait to see more. On another note, how can I get into helping replace bad bolts like this?
Different Sugarloaf. This one is in Northern California near Tahoe. Home of the first 5.13.
To get involved, figure out if there is anyone in your area currently doing it and offer to help. There are a number of online resources including Hownot2 content that shows different processes. If you can't find a mentor make sure you install some bolts and practice removing them at home.
In my experience removing bolts is an exercise in frustration and problem solving, mainly frustration tho.
Just curious, but it would be really cool to see you try and take a newly placed bolt out like you did with the first ones for comparison!
Yeah could be interesting. Unfortunately for that test but great for climber safety those bolts are super hard to source now.
I‘m amazed by your American ability to just instantly know that 5/16 is bigger than 1/4. I have to convert the 1/4 to 4/16 in my head, then compare to 5/16.
Ha ha ha. It has been a hard skill to acquire, and I only know the common climbing bolt sizes.
Myself and a few friends took up rock climbing back in the early 70s when we were young and strong. Bolting was seen as cheating back then and anyone doing it was really looked down on. Leave no trace was the rule we had. We did not even use chalk. Not wishing for the good old days just noting the difference. Cheers.
A lot of the bolts I have replaced date back to the 70s, I believe these bolts were from the mid 80s.
We love you Bobby!
Thanks!
I`m replacing old cold shuts at my local crag & my question is about torque.I understand that 3/8" bolts require 18 FP & 1/2" - 25 FP. I`ve tried a click type torque wrench but often times its hard to feel the "click' & recently over torqued a bolt & had to remove it.I usually use a 6" wrench & tighten with as much force as I can generate. I tap the hanger to see if it has a nice "ring" to it as well as a bounce test.You mentioned when you tightened the bolt you felt it was about 20 FP. Have you checked with a torque wrench to verify ? Thanks for posting this info.
What kind of bolt are you using?
Are you replacing the bolt or re using the existing bolt.
Many bolts are labeled with a Max torque.
As I understand it most torque specs are for initial torque. The bolts stretch under load and torqueing them to thier max torque repeatedly over tume can cause failure.
Thanks bobby!
Thanks for the first comment on the channel. Hit me up the next time you are in the area
I love getting to see the be hind the scenes of whats required to keep climbs safe and active! I cant wait to see all the awesome videos you make! one question I had though was what was the set up to get to the bolts, were you able to just hike to the top of the climb and repel down to the bolts similar to what you showed in your setting up a top rope video? Or is there some other trick?
Thanks, Planning to make similar content as I am passionate about the subject.
Good Question. This route presented a problem bc I couldn't walk up to the top bc of snow. No one was excited about climbing the route and risking a fall on the bolts. So I used a Solo Aid setup with 2 assisted breaking devices. One on a rope anchored to the ground and the other on a 30 ft piece of rope that I used to pull myself up to the next bolt after I clipped it with a stick clip. I got the idea from climbing TH-camr Tom O'Halloran.
I'm like "Bobby has a channel? Sweet."
Bobby's Unite.
Thanks for all the work you put in Bobby. Really enjoyed this video. Question: do you use any ear / hearing protection when pounding on things?
Usually, expecially when using a larger drill.
one time I was climbing a route and about halfway up there was a cam that had one of the cables to the release switch break so it wouldn't come out of the crack and it was just stuck there
Someone will have fun bootying that cam.
awesome content!
Appreciate it!
doing gods work
I don't know about that. But i like feeling like I am giving back to the community.
Question: when you replace anchors do you first setup a toprope or something above the anchor? Or do you use trad anchors or something? I didn't notice your rope as you were actually setting the anchors.
Yes. I set up a rope on the climb. Usually just fixed to the anchor. Then use some sort of ascending system and usually a Grigri to go up and down the rope. It is hard enough to replace bolts without doing it on lead.
To get to this anchor I played with a new to me technique. Using two Grigri's I aid soloed up the bolts using a stick clip. I was too busy figuring out the system to film it tho.
This would make a great video.
Great video thanks, really would like to rebolt my area (in south of France)
I climbed a little at Buoux once upon a time. No idea the culture and protocol for replacing bolts tho.
lover yu bobby keep up the good work
Thanks.
Nice work! I’ve been keeping the old stainless smc hangers on routes when the bolts are stainless too. I haven’t seen any corrosion with this combo. Are they concerning enough that I should be removing them?
No, I do that as well. We (Hownot2) tested some recently and they failed at about 20kn. Those break test will get released eventually.
I wouldn't put them in a roof placement that was going to see a ton of falls.
What pisses me off is the 5/16" split shafts are just hard enough to remove that the hangers get all bent.
I know a lot of people that love those hangers for back country routes and emergency bolts.
Good! I was panicking that I was gonna have to go back and replace em. Thankful we don’t have many buttonheads. Mostly 5/16 and 3/8 wedge anchors on the stuff I’ve done. Keep up the good work!
@@alexmorano3334 Back at you. Where are you replacing bolts?
I’m in Dillon, CO. It’s close between vail and Denver. Most of the stuff I work on was bolted in the 90s, so the bolts aren’t too bad
Me gustan estos videos de bolting
Gracias
Have you ever tried a modified rock splitting feather/wedge setup for the removal?
Huh? How would that work? The goal is to reuse the hole and damage the rock as little as possible. I have used Wedge and feathers. My imagination is failing me on how they could be used to remove a bolt with destroying a large chunk of rock. Intrigued to see what you are thinking.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Basically slotting the wedge and feather like your cold chisel there, or really even just using a slotted feather by itself under your chisel to reduce friction on the rock
@@lunchboxproductions1183 Ahh, now I am picking up what you are putting down. I have used multiple slotted tools on longer more stubborn bolts in the way that you describe. Currently I don't think a wedge and feathers would be better that 2 tuning forks as it is still metal sliding on metal but I will think on it. Thanks for the idea!
@@bobbyhutton1989 Yeah, I was thinking the feather would be nice for getting things started!
@@lunchboxproductions1183 A lot of people use a knife blade piton with a groove machined in it. The eye hole allows you to clip it and gives you something to hammer against if it gets stuck. For the 1/4 bolts many people use a lost arrow piton. Once I sized up to what you see in the video all my other tuning forks sit in the shelf.
What's stopping the nut from spinning off? Would it make sense to use nylock nuts or threadlocker?
Pressure. This question is addressed in a few of comments.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Oh, thanks for the reply. I guess I tend to be skeptical of regular nuts because I tend to work with in the context of heavy vibrating equipment and machinery where they're liable to back off without a secondary securing method.
But yeah, I guess rocks don't usually move much.
as someone who's not familiar with tooling, I shat a lil bit when you said 5 16
Yeah, pretty small.
I love Bobby
Thanks
You should be able to get an adaptor to place in your hammer drill chuck to use impact sockets.... for at least some hammer drills there are also right-angle chuck adaptors.
And in the iron workers field, there are some specialty impact wrenches for hand hammering and aligning (spuds and spikes) and hammers designed especially for at height & hand power only - would be good for your locations you aren’t allowed power tools.
Thanks for the suggestions, always looking for tools ylto make life easier.
They make SDS adapters. I like to feel the torque in my hand, I can also use the wrench as a spacer to pry out the old bolt.
@@bobbyhutton1989 I totally agree. As you inferred never and always do not leave one open to the options.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Been too long since have been back to North America, but I recall that a good dig into specialty tools in a Grainger catalogue was always worth it! Some good stone working tools etc in Japan, nowadays with some good Japanese yt channels and social media, language and purchase/shipping, a heck of lot easier than in my day..
Subbed, hope you make more videos
Thanks for the sub!
Why not use glue-ins?
If you don’t get a response from Bobby… my guess is cost, ease of installation and possible removal, and it’s granite so these are bomber for many decades.
Great Question. The short answer is assholes.
I installed a lot of glue ins at this spot and other zones, but at this spot there is one particular individual who took great offense to my use of glue ins. I never got a coherent reason why. Since this person does help a lot with the trail maintenance and I don't like getting chewed out when I am out climbing I have taken a path of less resistance and am using a super good enough solution.
@@bobbyhutton1989 Dude, I get that!! Benn there with people like that. I just do what is the most right thing and safest....
Let assholes be assholes. Never be forced to concede that wrong is right.
fun idea but have you ever thought about selling the old bolts as mystery packs, there are tons of ppl who for nostalgia purposes or as curios might want the old rusty gear and it could go to buying new bolts :D
Interesting. I give many away to guides or teachers. a large portion if my collection was damaged when my place burned as well. We have a video coming out eventually on HowNit2 where we test a brunch of old hangers.
@@bobbyhutton1989 oh no, I’m sorry to hear that, I just assumed you’d be silly with extra hangers, but I’m glad to hear they are getting put to good use
No worry about the nut coming loose? Pretty much every nut on my airplane is safety wired and most wouldn’t kill me if they came off. More of a thought than a criticism. No doubt you guys know what you are doing. Still, locktite maybe? lol
Check the comments, several discussions about this already. Essentially rocks don't vibrate much and many methods to secure the nut can damage the placement.
Which quality was the material in the bolt and hanger? In regards of corrosion resistance.
The button head was zinc plated steel. The SMC hangers are SS probably 304.
@@bobbyhutton1989 thank you for the reply. I do a lot of the same work, but over in Norway. Pretty much the same type of rock, and environment here.
My idea is that a bolt installed now should last the longest possible, and that means at least 100 years, I hope. That’s why I go for 316 of higher corrosion resistance level.
A so long lifetime should be technically possible, but I fear that in the future climbers will be suspicious of so old bolts. Especially if they look bad, or corroded.
I also predict that new equipment, technics and demands from the climbers will force an earlier rebolting than what is technically needed.
Keep it the good work, it is inspiring.
@@Vertikal1000 Sweet! Do you see similar bolts?
Keep fighting the good fight.
@@bobbyhutton1989 like the button heads? Rarely. Even most olds (30-40 years) are 10mm with 50-60 mm depth. But they mostly made of plain steel, and often there’s a difference in the material of the different parts, and then one part starts to rust much faster. Important to have proper quality through all parts. I use glue-ins the most though, even if it’s more work. I think the end result is worth it.
Happy new year👍
@@Vertikal1000 Totally agree
why dont you use nylock nuts?
Good question. The lifetime is too short. The plastic insert degrades relatively quickly. More importantly, you are likely to screw up the placement. As you have to force the nut on the bolt it can spin the bolt in the hole before it is set which might make it impossible to install. So manufacturer doesn't recommend it.
@@bobbyhutton1989 just saw your reply to my comment. This makes sense. Although, working in the aerospace field, I have seen ingenious ways around this. There are such things as metallic self locking nuts that are “ovaled” which grip the bolt or stud without having to use a nylon insert. That way, there is nothing that can wear out overtime. They’re commonly used in exhaust systems where a nylon insert wouldn’t work because of the heat. As for the stud having the possibility of spinning, another way around this would be to have an internal hex cut out in the top of the stud to use an Alan key with in order to prevent the stud from rotating when rotating the nut.
Sorry for the lengthy comment! I’m not a climber. I saw your video in my recommended and thought it was great. I appreciate your dedication to your hobby and helping others. Keep it up!
Edit: The whole reason for me asking in the first place is because that nut is subject to rotation. There is a lot of weight pulling on that ring, and overtime I am willing to bet there will be enough movement there to eventually loosen that nut which could lead to catastrophe. You have more experience in this particular application than I do, but seeing countless failures in aviation from not using locking hardware just raises red flags for me
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Definitely some things to think about.
One solution climbing companies have introduced is putting dimples on the hanger to make it harder for them to spin. Some hangers also have a cone around the hole that compresses and acts as a lock washer.
It is a minority of hangers that spin on bolts. Usually it is a placement that takes a fall that swings across the wall. Personally if I see that problem develop I replace the bolt with a glue in that can't spin. But it is enough of a problem in the sport that many people carry small wrenches and there are multi function tools for removing temporary gear that have common bolt head sizes machined into them. The good thing is that you can inspect the bolt before it is used.
I recently replaced some wedge bolts at North Table Mountain in Golden that had nylon lock nuts. I believe the nylon on them degraded like Bobby suggested, and more problematic was the nut and bolt were heavily corroded. The bolts sheared when attempting to loosen. It was hard to tell if the nylon was sticking or the nut was corroded stuck. (These were the anchors, by the way.)
Another concern like Bobby mentioned the nylon might make initial torquing challenging. If the bolt becomes loose over time due to whips or freeze thaw cycles, a climber tightening it down may run into the same issue and the whole bolt becomes a spinner. You see this on wedge bolts with regular nuts sometimes where you try and tighten and the whole bolt turns, perhaps because the threads got crossed or filled with debris. The compression and torque occurring from the wedge in back is generally enough to keep a spinner from occurring in solid rock.
Apologies if this has already been addressed, but why no washer?
Good question. Basically bc I haven't been convinced that they add any value.
In Hownot2 tests both the bolts and hangers used in this video are much stronger in shear and tension than the relevant standard without washers.
I have installed these bolts with washers and without and have not noticed any difference in which bolts become spinners. There is always a direct cause such as a placement that sees swinging falls.
Of less concern, having a washer means there is less bolt in the rock and more stud sticking out above the hanger and in the way.
@@bobbyhutton1989 A couple follow up clarifications:
1) "...are much stronger in shear and tension than the relevant standard without washers."
Do you mean:
a) the presence or absence of the washer made no difference in the break tests
b) it was stronger without the washer (this wouldn't make sense to me, but sometimes engineering things are counter-intuitive to lay folk like me)
2) "...not noticed any difference in which bolts become spinners"
Do you mean:
a) the bolt itself spins
b) the nut loosens so the hanger spins but the bolt is still good
Thanks!
@@derekwoods5554
This combo doesn't need the washer to meet the EU strength standards we try to abide by.
Hangers spin sometime on placements with washers spin, they also spin on placements without washers. The presence of the washer doesn't seem to have any effect.
only advantage I have found of using a washer is if the hole is drilled not perfectly perpendicular to the rock
gd job..
Thanks. Back at you.
aw yeah
Stainless lags?
Dewalt Power-stud. 3/8" by 3 3/4"
@@bobbyhutton1989 the year is 2134. Skynet is fully online. We're now replacing old hardware by drilling for bolts 3cm x 20cm on rock faces to survive. Skynet sent two terminators, now capable of climbing a 5.9. Their mission: to get sick beta for the rest of Skynet.
Sorry if I’m missing something, but the replacements don’t use self locking nuts on the stud to hold the ring on? That doesn’t seem right to me… please correct me if I’m wrong!
Not recommended by the manufacturer. See my answer to a similar comment.
Just wondering...who pays for all this new hardware?
Climbing community members, myself and donations to the American Safe Climbing Association. The hardware cost is nothing compared to the tools and the man hours. In this video I installed I installed $15 of hardware.
@@bobbyhutton1989 is maintaining the routes the responsibility of the climbers or do parks do their own maintenance? Or rather, can just anyone do this or is is something that is regulated?
@@Brocuzgodlocdunfamdogson In most places in the US it is not regulated. Smith Rock, Yosemite and Joshua tree are exceptions, mainly in a heavy handed effort to close a loophole that allowed one criminal to get away with sabotaging anchors. Many areas have groups of voulunteers that replace bolts. I am unaware of any State or Federal park in the US that maintains climbing anchors.
I'm not a climber but I think I would stake those nuts to make sure they don't come loose.
Check the comments.
Do you know who's been placing glue-ins there??
Yes ??
Feel free to reach out. Bobbyhutton1989 at gmail
Ideally the part of th bolt that is subjected to the shear force shouldn't be threaded.... Another option used in many applications is that they specificy the torque on the bolt to make sure that the friction between the two surfaces is what counteracting the shear force!
The hanger and the bolt fail at about the same force. 30 kn+. Well above relevant standards.
Nice work. Get your self, a Riggers podger, 32oz eastwing,ballpien hammer, and eastwing bodger bar.
I would need a porter to carry all that.
@Bobby Hutton Makes bolting easier. Remember you will end up with tennis elbow anyhow. Done a ridiculous amount of anchors, in and out. Outs are worse,massive time suck. Get some star head tungsten granite drill bits also. Cheers keep doing your good work. Dig your sense of responsibility 👏
Yeah getting a bolt out is a massive PITA. I have most of the tools you mention but find it is not worth bringing them on most projects. For 3 bolts I will spend another 5 minutes swinging a hammer vs carrying an extra 20lbs up the hill.
Not familiar with the star tungsten bits you mentioned. Google was no help. I really like the 4 cutter carbide tipped bits from Diablo. I stocked up when they where super cheap.
@Bobby Hutton I get it. I am usually doing a couple of hundred at a time! Those diablo bits are good enough for the amount of holes you do. Heat is the enemy. I remember when the first reliable battery rotary hammer drills came out. Went bolt crazy 🤪 on some good climbing routes. Beats lugging a compressor up a wall. Keep up the good work 👏