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The True Difference Between Magic and Technology
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ส.ค. 2024
- If our story's magic can act as technology and technology can masquerade as magic, what's the true difference between the two and what does it mean for your fictional world? There's more than just Clarke's Third Law at play here.
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Chapters
Intro - 00:00
The Basics - 00:20
The Basic Difference - 01:47
Simple Example - 04:40
The TRUE Difference - 07:02
Examples - 09:11
Recap & Outro - 14:32
Fascinating. I like how you break down your method for determining which is which.
Thanks! I appreciate that
I would like a video on how to make magic look like tech and the other way around
Me too! ^^
There have been several votes for that. I'll add it to the queue and start developing the concept more in my brainpan
Though similar to yours I always thought of magic is something that benefits a individual while technology benefits a people.
Magic is real and TheMagicEngineer has it. I am starting a story about two societies one that uses Magic as "traditional Magic" the other uses Magic like "technology" this video could not possibly come at a better time.
That is effectively what exists in A Certain Magical Index's world. You have one technologically developed society that uses experimentation and scientific principles to create special psychics who have control over certain elements like electricity, plasma, dark matter, or even vectors themselves. And then you have another group that uses magic based on the occult, angels, devils, etc. It's strongly implied that both are connected because there's a character who has the ability to nullify both.
Nice! Sounds like fun!
Glad it was helpful!
I wonder how you rate the Transference of REALLY traditional magic, where it's just a skill that theoretically anyone can learn ... but it takes decades of study, and you either need another magic user to teach you, or access to magical tomes explaining how to do it (in a pre-printing press world, where such books can't be mass produced).
An excellent question! Bear in mind, that when we get into specific cases like this, the analysis becomes HIGHLY subjective, but here's my take on it.
First, I'd want to clarify WHY it takes so long to be effective? Is it because it's just a complicated knowledge base like learning to become a doctor? Or is it that it takes years to build up the fine control skill and power to do things just right like a master martial artist? Can people do magic as soon as they learn the rituals and it's just weak, imprecise, and possibly dangerous?
If it's because the knowlege and skill is so essoteric that it takes years to understand at all, then I'd put it around medium to med-low transference (definitely med-low if we're talking about a pre-printing world). If anyone can do it once they know the right ritual and components, then it's probably around med-high.
The other aspect of this is Ease of Use. If anyone can do it the second they find a ritual, then transference is fairly high. But if the crafting is so weak and imprecise that it's practically useless without years of practice, then it's the Ease of Use that's low and not the Transference. Similar result, but different causes and solutions
Thank you! Looking forward to the MYMM vid.
To diagnose that hum in your audio:
- Check that your lavalier plug is seated fully
- Check that its wire isn't crossing any other wires (especially ones delivering power, ie to the camera, or to a light)
- Check that the camera doesn't have an audio override switched on like "reduce wind noise" or "noise cancelling"
- Turn down the input gain on the microphone or in the camera's software
Thanks Carrie!
I guess I don't have the ear for audio engineering, because I can't pick up the hum you mentioned. I'll doublecheck those things in the future and see how I can step up my audio cleaning process
The hum is soft. I need to turn up the volume until my ears hurt, to hear it. I find Auphonic effective in reducing noise.
@@kit888 Haven't heard of that. I'll look into it. I currently use Audition from Adobe
So, if I may so prevail upon you, what are your thoughts on the following statement I came up with for my magic system?
Magic is magic is magic. The difference between magic in differing realms is a realms Inherent Magical Resistance (IMR). Here we are essentially creating a loose correlation between magic and electricity though, these are fundamentally separate forces. This is often determined by the presence and participation of gods in the realm. D&D realms have low IMR while Arda/Middle Earth and Narnia would have a medium IMR. Our Earth has an extreme IMR, meaning that in order for a magic-user, let’s say Merlin, to cast a spell, he must use a greater amount of energy than say a magic-user in Faerun, Krynn or even Gandalf in Arda.
I’m sorry if it misses the mark as to context within this video but, this is all coming so slowly to me.
That makes sense to me. There are some interesting implications with that too. If Gandalf ever wound up on our Earth, then he might not be able to do magic at all
"Can you build a society on it?" Always an important question when worldbuilding
In the world I am creating, magic is more akin to the Force in StarWars, as in, technically, anybody can learn it, but only few have enough aptitude and ineherent talent to make training them feasable. Aspiring apprentices are tested in how long it takes them to learn the most basic form of sensing the magical energies within themselves.
Magic users can easily create enchanted items (only magic users can enchant items) but only craft masters can create Magic Items (no need to be a magic user) or Magic Artefacts (craft masters who also are magic users)
sounds like fun!
The Broken Earth Trilogy by N K Jemisin is the most beautiful embodiment of the blurry line between magic and technology I've ever read!
I still need to finish that series, but you're absolutely right!
The Stone Sky (final book, no spoilers) drops several bombs in that regard! I would definitely enjoy your insights after you finish the series.
For a great example of a magic system going through "transference" and "prevalence" changes, The WizBiz by Rick Cook.
(Should I edit a comment as I watch the video or make several comments that end up having to reference each other? I'm going with editing.)
I'd like a video on making magic and tech look like the other.
My magic system is tech/computer/programming inspired and sometimes it feels too much like forgotten scifi tech being rediscovered instead of magic. that is being discovered for the first time. I suppose that it doesn't help that the people of my world use the scientific method (or their version of it) for researching and discovering the magic system. The fact that they kind of consider it a subfield of physics probably isn't helping either.
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"The main difference between magic and tech is... how it's created. Is it technically possible for anyone to craft them or is the actual construction... limited to a few people. If it is [limited] then you are effectively dealing with magic."
I might be being picky, but I don't think this is a good distinction. I don't know how to make a car, but I could probably learn to if I tried. is car manufacture magic creation for a 'magic' device of quick transport? On the flip side, I write computer programs for a living, and yet I can imagine non-programmers considering us programmers as wizards because non-programmers don't understand how it works, yet I have the opinion that you can teach people to program.
Relating this to my magic system, in theory, anyone can inscribe a spell and anyone can cast those spells, but in practice, many people don't learn how to inscribe spells but still use those that are made by others. This is a programming influence, spells are very inspired by computer programming and inscribing is analogous to writing code, with casting being the equivalent of running the program. Spell users who can't scribe can (in theory) use a spell to copy a spell, like copying a program. But that's my world when they get to an equivalent to our modern day - 'equivalent' is a loose term here. My world history starts in the stone age (or early iron or something), back then spells were not often shared, defiantly not to the same (commercialised) level that the 'modern day' era is.
I suppose over a world's timeline the traits (transference/prevalence/etc) of the magic (or tech) system could shift such that it starts to seem more like a tech (or magic) system, especially if that timeline covers thousands of years in a world with many cultures.
(Ok, I'm done with the video now. Thanks for the interesting words of thought and your wisdom on *engineering magic*.)
Hmm, here's a thought or two for your system. Maybe if you make it clear that the scientists/magic users of your world understand exactly what their doing. If their experiements focus on understanding a "thing", then it might feel like rediscovering old tech. But if their experiments focus on ideas, it might feel more like standard academic research. Idk. Maybe that will help.
As for the rest. The distinction is fine one and, as always, just take what makes sense to you and helps you with your systems.
With the car example, you are right. Anyone is technically capable of creating a car, with the right knowledge and materials. But if a specific part of the process could only be completed by people with blue eyes (know idea why or how that would work), then the process is limited by the number of people that meet that criteria. With the scrolls, it might be that only true magic users can summon magical effects without scrolls, but anyone can perform magic with them. In which case, the scrolls can function like technology while the full magic-users are something sepecial
So where would you place enchanted items on this scale in a setting where there is no inherent requirements to be a wizard, but it requires extensive training and the wizards themselves are still rare?
If non-wizards can create the enchanted items, then I'd consider it true technology. Now, depending on the avialability and veracity of the information shared, you can make it SEEM like anything you want. But technically, that sounds like tech to me. Hope that helps!
The book I'm writing has a power system that any person can access and use. So the system itself is high prevalence and transference. But beyond the basics, complex individual abilities are determined by each person's desires, interests, ideology, etc. The power system is also independent of artifacts or external power sources and comes from within each person. Would it make sense to call it true technology?
Tell me more about the transference aspect. Can they simply transfer the power source, or do individuals actually pass their complex and unique powers back and forth among each other?
@@themagicengineer5314 Primarily just the power source unless there's someone who has the specific ability to transfer powers. Though technically any person could develop the exact same powers as someone else by knowing the other person's exact desires, interests, ideology, etc which led to that person developing that particular set of powers. One of my characters essentially does this with every person he fights with or against, but simplified and on a much smaller scale. So if the person he's copying can create a mountain, he can create a large boulder. There's also the opposite case where a character turns his back on the ideology that had been the source of his power and has to start developing a new ability from scratch.
So direct transference is mostly a no. But indirect transference (i.e. learning the exact same ability) is always possible for anyone who wants to and is good at reading other people.
I should probably clarify something about the cost. Developing a power to an advanced level of complexity requires an equal amount of devotion to whatever that power's 'muse' is. So if the power is based on a particular worldview, it'll get stronger as the user's belief in that worldview becomes firmer. This effectively means the power system encourages narrowmindedness, obsession, and dogmatism. And indeed, all the strongest users share one or more of these characteristics. With the exception of the character who learns from everyone and instead suffers the cost of fragmenting his own sense of self.
Going back to transference, it is not enough to just understand what lies behind a person's power in order to perfectly replicate it. You also need to devote yourself in the exact same way that they did. You need to actually believe what they do or care about the things that they do. And with the same amount of intensity.
@@gongozar It sounds like you simply have an external power source that could be a form of technology but the abilities themselves are magic.
That said, don't twist yourself into knots trying to identify exactly what it is. You really only need to explore this topic as far as it is useful to you and your story... that or for fun :)
So if I'm getting this right, what truly sets them apart is a matter of perspective and circumstance? (Examples you mentioned are Harry Potter to illustrate different perspective and The Stormlight Archive to illustrate different circumstances.) These factors both vary prevallence and access and how that affects these societies and worlds.
Another factor I immediately thought of was the passage of time. Both in fiction and history have we seen civilization gain enough power to shift the perspectives and circumstances that the people have towards things that enable power.
When I think about it, there are plenty of branches of technology and science that, as much as we like to think we live in a scientific world, still feel very much like magic to most people in terms of how its understood and how people respond to it. Such as things difficult to comprehend or predict like machine learning algorithms, the exact inner-workings of anything in the human body, or even certain quantum mechanical effects (which can be utilized as tech even though it feels a lot like magic to us).
Fascinating stuff, and yes I am very interested to see a video about blurring the lines between magic and tech.
I guess now that I think of it, the big takeaway in this video is that the difference is the "vibe informed by the status quo".
The objective factor being the means production, while the subjective perception of this power determining the vibe of the magic/tech spectrum.
Perspective and circumstance can change EVERYTHING about a magic system! That's part of why I find it so fun and fascinating to toy with. It's easy to put societal or informational roadblocks or channels in place to completely change how a magic system feels within a setting or story
I think there are outliers. For example racing cars or jets is a piece of technology which can only be used by experts and manufactured by a small pool of people with a high enough IQ. I guess in such cases the reason for the categorization is because of where it is coming from.
I think one of the best novels in that aspect is called "forty millenniums of cultivation". That's a cultivation novel or eastern fantasy of around 600h if it were an audiobook. I will describe it a little and this will involve spoilers. I will focus on the magic/technology aspect and this will be a spoiler for the worldbuilding but not the plot. In cultivation novels world building is at least half the appeal (in my opinion) so only read the third paragraph of this comment if that is okay with you.
In case you don't know cultivation novels or wuxia or xianxia there is a different magic system than we are used to. I have never watched it, but I think dragon ball is a story which might be part of that genre. Cultivation means you meditate and through that process you gather the energy of the universe into your body. That energy transforms your body and can make it super powerful. When I mean super powerful I mean Theanos would be neglectable cannon fodder and captain marvel is on the power level of the late early stages of the story. Meditation is normally based on pondering about the dao. Dao can be thought of as the laws of the universe. But since the idea comes from Chinese mythology, the laws of the universe are not based on mathematical formulas but on things like fire, water, life and so on. Which means someone can ponder on the dao of raindrop and comprehend it and infuse the comprehension of the waterdrop into the swordart. Daos can be subsets of other daos, for example the dao of the raindrop is a subset of the dao of water. Someone can completely understand such a dao which has a different effect depending on the lore. But generally if you comprehend enough daos you basically control your world. And each world tend to have a heaven. Heaven is the impersonal will of the world which has the goal of evening everything out. With that I mean if there is a race which is too strong it sends a calamity to push it back down. If some cultivator has a breakthrough and ascends to a higher level the world sends a calamity to test the cultivator during ascension. If the cultivator succeeds he is a powerlevel higher. If he fails he either dies or he is more or less handicapped and incapable of ascending a second time.
One of the main appeals of those stories is that since the protagonist get's exponentially stronger he is forced to expand his horizon and the author is forced to introduce a larger world every arc.
But enough with the background. Forty mill is such a cultivation novel but with a very technological feel. The world you start out has brought the arts of cultivation to a very technological level. There are factories of common people which produce the magical devices. There is an army of common people which is almost equally powerful as the cultivators. Or in some aspects, due to the numbers and magical devices they can win against an army of cultivators. Warships can only be steered by cultivators, but it still requires hundreds of common people to make it run properly. Their rivals (spoiler warning) are masters in bioengineering. They do stuff like DNA manipulation, breeding and so on and they can create beasts which mimic technological devices. But the bioengineering can also do other stuff. You can dive into the DNA with your mind and explore the past and awaken the features of the ancestors. Which may make you stronger or cripple you. Then there is another world which is also a cultivator world. It has higher technology but the factions in it are working less together. In the first world driving an exosuit (imagine iron man) is something only specialized cultivators can do due to the high amount of mental power and data processing needed. In that other world of cultivators they have automated most of it with crystal chips (imagine microcontrollers). It even goes so far that common people can wear those suits and they can perform powerful attacks with the help of skill cards, which some cultivator made for them.
Even though everything I described just now sounds technological, it really isn't. And that is due to the large distinction of power between cultivators and common people as well as the history forty thousand years ago where this wasn't the case. Forty thousand years ago the cultivators were like mages in western stories which mostly didn't share their knowledge and they were the esoteric and arbitrary people with immense power. It's just that their form of society didn't last and broke down due to failures in the system of their societal behavior. There are many more societies, each with a different technology, like the immortal humans, the blood band virus, the deities and so on. I won't go into all of them as I'm only on chapter 1050 out of 3516 chapters and I've only got a decent amount of insight into around 10 societies with their individual technologies. I can definitely recommend it. For one because it is well done, but also because the author is quite intelligent and does a lot of scheming and plot building with very few logical errors. And if you like the magic/technology blend then this is one of the best stories I've read.
Three other cultivation stories I like are the following:
- warlock of the magus world: This story is about a scientist who is reincarnated into a world of magic. Since it is a scientist there is a high focus on how stuff works. Definitely also interesting from the point of view which you talked about in this video. It is partially inspired by D&D. I especially like his cheat ability. It's an AI chip which is bound to his soul. This allows recording of all senses, scanning of different radiations, a microscope which can scan down to the molecule level, data storage and sorting, reading and writing into the memory/brain of the human and simulation of fights, spells and other things. In his original world that microchip was common technology among top scientists with the difference that it was not soul-bound. If I could chose a cheat skill when reincarnating I would choose that one. Not offensively the strongest but when it comes to learning it is definitely a huge help.
- desolate area: This is not particularly interesting when it comes to technology. It is purely fantasy. But when it comes to world building it is the best cultivation story I've read. lots of different and creative worlds. Lots of different and creative skills. If I think of a cultivation novel universe this is the world I judge everything by.
- reverend insanity: This one sadly got put on an indefinite break by the Chinese government. Since it is around 4/5 way done there is still plenty to read though. This story does technology different than warlock and forty mil do. With the other two it felt techy. Here it doesn't. There is a lot of engineering and research but it all feels like a magician is doing it and not a scientist. Theoretically you could say there is a distinction between common people and cultivators, but this is only really relevant in the first arc as in the later stages the common people are not really noteworthy anymore. After all if you only interact with the cultivators then they are the new common people.
There are quite a few more novels like this, but since reading each one of them is quite a big time commitment I have only read a few of them. There are probably better ones out there.
I love cultivation novels, so I'll have to check that one out. Is it well written?
@@themagicengineer5314 I'm a bit insensitive to badly written stuff if there is stuff I like in a novel. So I'm not the best source on telling someone if it is well written.
But let's just take my personal judgement based on the webnovel review sheet. I try to find good and bad in each category:
*Translation Quality:*
The language is a bit simple and there is some repetition in the sentence structure. For example the sentence structure "this is like ..." or "this is as if ..." are used often. I think it is not a problem but I noticed it. I didn't see any grammatical or orthographical errors. let's give it a
_4.5 star here_
*Stability of Updates:*
The translation is finished so
_5.0 stars here_
*Story Development:*
Very well thought out. It is to a degree that you start to pay attention to stuff where you normally wouldn't pay attention to in such novels. For example in a lot of cultivation novels stuff happens to the people by chance. But in this story this is not really the case and it is even pointed out by the narrator. So you start to pay attention to the potentially illogical chance encounters. Half of them are not actually chance encounters. Same with who is scheming and who falls for stuff. You won't find people being Incredible smart in one chapter and the same person falling for an obvious plot in the next. Currently I think there are a few illogical things I found due to paying attention to details which I would normally overlook. But I haven't finished the story so it might have a reason. Also those things are kinda necessary if you want to have a semi-OP character. Also i would say since the story has such a technological focused wuxia style the plot is something which is pretty unique. Of course no world shaking stuff but definitely not something you find everywhere.
_5.0 Stars_
*Character design:*
Characters don't follow a template and they have their own motivation. Often you don't see their motivations until well into the arch. And the characters, including the main characters, are often good at deceiving other people and lying. So we sometimes don't know if the MC or an enemy falls for a scheme or not. Of course we know in the end the MC survives and he returns stronger than before, but it's not always in a way you'd expect. There are smart enemies and smart friends. But not everyone is scheming. Not everyone has the same morals. Sometimes you (and even the MC) are more convinced of the opposing arguments but don't agree with it anyways. After all the consequences would not be what you want.
_5.0 stars_
*World Background:*
Well thought out and diverse (not in a progressive leftist way). The author put some thought into how societies with such a historical and geological background would develop and what the influence is on the society and the people living in it. I think the title of most creative world building belongs to Desolate Era. Forty Mill can't reach to that level. But it is certainly solid when it comes to consistency and it has variation which is not just to the level of "the sky is read instead of blue". I guess the feel of the worldbuilding is more that of a sci-fi story not like that of a cultivation novel. I would say compared to Desolate Era you are less curious to wander the world and find out what is behind the horizon. But you love to see what type of technology he will dig out and integrate into his existing skillset. Or how he manages to achieve his impossible goals by tricking everybody.
_4.5 Stars_
I think one thing this is missing is mechanism. Technology is high and magic is low in terms of mechanism.
That is to say that if you take a fireball spell conjured with hands that is low in mechanism because it is spawning out of thin air. If its predictable and ritualised then it begins to border on tech but still remains magical. Put it in a wand or staff and its still magical because a wand or staff should not be able to produce fire. But put that spell into a complex dish shaped contraption with spinny bits that draws the mana from the air and converts it by channelling it into the centre causing a superheated ball of plasma to be ejected... and you have yourself a technology - a fireball gun.
It could still be super rare (low prevalence) like a lost technology or be non-transferrable like requiring a certain ability in an operator and have a limited means of production by needing certain makers. But the fact that it is a plausible and predictable mechanism rather than ex-nihilo conjuring out of (seeming) thin air. It might harness "magic" - but it does so in the same way that any other technology interfaces with the world around us. Magic can still have structure or a "you can never make something from nothing" rule when you want to blur the line between the two - but for it to remain magical it must still seem to come from nothing.
I'm not rebuking the entire video by the way. I think low scores on any of these (transference, prevalence, means of production and mechanism) make something more magic-y and high scores make it more technology-y, and that combinations make it even more so.
My main argument against means of production being key would be that as soon as its not simply 'random people get magic ability' and becomes something that is a biological difference OR in universe quasi-biological difference - like say between species - this like can get very very smudged. I'd argue means of production is important but its sliders all the way babyyyy.
Lol. It is definitly the sliders all the way! And you make a really good point with the mechanism. I'll have to chew on that a bit.
When I'm talking about "technology" I'm trying to discuss it as something that will shape society like tehcnology does in our world. A genetic source of magic can't reshape technology like cell phones did until we unlock the secret to tweaking it and propogate the capability.
Of course, not tht I'm talking through it, there's also the aspect of Industrializing the magic. That really only requires consistency and reliability, but I digress. Thanks for the well mannered disagreement and feedback. I appreciate that :)
@@themagicengineer5314 No probs :)
Your vid gave me food for thought too.
When I am talking about genetic though I am talking stuff like elves vs humans. Because a technology could absolutely cater to the specific biology of elves or only work for them. If they have a wider range of hearing they could make alarms that can only work for their ears. Perhaps if humans have stronger arms only we could make and use long bows.
If magic is then a component of biology - like say if elves have a 'mana bladder' - this could be a plausible reason why elves can do magic but humans cannot.
A lot of fantasy stories end up creating a 'mana bladder' (though often it's either a quality of a person's blood or soul) to explain the difference between magic users and non-magic users. They may be the same species but they end up being different variants - whether that be within a population or their own population.
Thats why I feel that means of production - while very useful - doesn't get down to it.
Mechanism provides another variable, again not completely key either, but ultimately this is just aesthetic. Take a magic - add a mechanism, prevailance, reproducability and a wide means of production and you have a technology - and its perfectly possible to sit somewhere in etween.
Avatar (the blue people one) is a good example of straddling the line with Ewa
I personally disagree with this interpretation, not that it is invalid, but it is not an interpretation I would use for my stories. I tend to see magic as fundamentally divorced from materialism, more like an art.
You cannot kill death, it is an abstract concept; but magic may allow the fear of death in a setting to manifest in a form where the characters confront it in a much more tangible and potentially interesting way than leaving it in the realm of philosophy and symbolism. Technology on the contrary doesn't care about lore; it is merely a tool with certain inputs and outputs; a cold, inflexible machine. Technology can be made magical through its design and role in the world; and magic can be made technical by exploiting its constraints.
My interpretation of the wizard and muggle scenario, is that magic is still magic, but the magic only works in the hands of a wizard, which makes a wizard a constraint of the magic, the wizards body is a piece of technology capable of leveraging magic, while a muggle's body is incompatible with it.
In Avatar the last Airbender series, bending powers are mostly a genetic technology, what makes it magical to me is the connection these bending styles reflect tradition, martial practice, philosophy, and the spiritual world. Aang only grows his avatar potential when he gains a deeper wisdom of these traditions, and why their important. In the legend of Korra, tradition, discipline and spirituality are discarded in favor of genetic superiority, and punching left wing caricatures (I am getting off topic)
in the real world, I would argue that capitalism is a magic system that works through a variety of arcane and obscure mechanisms designed to funnel power to an increasingly small minority of people who were most likely born into the potential to wield it to defy the laws of man. (this also qualifies with your definition). The mythology of capitalism includes the virtues of "great men" the value of "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps", and the threat that "if you don't assert your position on the ladder, you will be overtaken by someone more ambitious than you" the technology of capitalism is currency, private property, the security to protect that private property, contracts to exploit the labor that feeds capitalism, and products to sell back to the people doing the work. If you replace capitalism with vampirism, you would hardly notice the difference (Ok, I am done being political, thanks for reading).
lol. Both capitalism and vampirism do function based on sucking away a resource vital for survival (even if capitalism is what makes it vital in the first place)
I'm glad you have an interpretation that works for you. At the end of the day, that's what's most important :)
I would assume implementation is what matters.
For example, the definition of “magic” that I have always used is by Aleister Crowley: the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will. But this definition is not going to work as a mechanism to create a magic system. Rather Aleister Crowley’s definition of “magick”, in this sense, would be more akin to a magic system all on itself. Let alone there is the argument of what is “will” and does it have a connection to our spirit[ual subconscious] … by the way, these are ideas that are AWESOME to play around with in fantasy writing. Anyway, TheMagicEngineer’s definition of Magic is much better for writing, in my opinion.
Whereas, and in contrast, with the way I would interpret “technology” is that it is something (whether material or immaterial) that is created by means of scientific knowledge, i.e., computers. But it can also be immaterial, for example, “philosophy” can be interpreted as technology. Quite possibly it originates with application which can easily tie back to magic. Technology is magic and I would love to see a video on switching these things around as mentioned in the video.
Not to veer off topic here but I’m quite perturbed as to the mention of Capitalism and it’s relationship to Magic or Technology. Capitalism is an economic and political system that has origins with colonialism and slavery. The closest thing to “real life” magic that we can prove would be Aleister Crowley’s definition: if you will something that something can change, i.e., cause = affect, you want to write a novel with all your will, you work to write it enough to finish it, you want it published then you independently publish it or find an agent, etc… Not including the “magical” phenomenon that animates human beings in combination with why we can only live up to a certain age and then we’re “unanimated”. It will always be a mystery to us #Food4Thought.
Edit:
Off topic. Can I just mention how absolutely beautiful TheMagicEngineer’s hair is 👌🏽
Really got me to look back at my magic systems. Namely the difference between spells and alchemy. While spells need a magic user, alchemy can be done by the mundane. Magic definitely makes the presses trivial in alchemy, but it can be done by regular people.
Also would the Tech Priests from 40k be spellcasters under this examination?
I am not in 40k, so cant answer... but would be a nice world, if we could use magic on such a level...
especially if computers may work out the runes at the end....
40K is a special shade of grey when looking at tech and magic. Maybe someone more familiar with the lore could answer definitevly. They definitely present it as magic (gifts from the emperor, sacred canticles, machine activation rituals, etc) so it could ultimately fall in either camp. We'd need to know the technical requirements of producing their tech to be certain
Plot twist: I've only been making technology systems that look like magic.
Makes me feel a little weird, but I guess that's part of the paint of my systems. Proof that anyone can do the things.
Excellent! So much of the difference lies in execution and utilization within the world and the story. Hopefully the video helped you clarify what and how you want to manage this
I see clearly your agrumentation, but is has a flaw... a cell phone is something like s scroll, which a magician (or many) make and where you for example not even have to say the runes any more, but to press onto some circles to do the magic. None of us can make a cell phone on our own, but the technology was combined in a package which enables the non-skilled user to use it. If the magic is so good imprinted into something (like a scroll) and only some words, or a gesture is to made to activate it, then it is technology.
Think of technology 2000 years ago at the time of the greeks... they had some greek fire, optics, even steam engines to open dors of temples... there the technology was low in prevalence and quite often seen as magic. They had vending machines for holy water and many other mechanical gimicks, like the Antikythera mechanism. Even today it takes many engineers to reveal its function. And as such it is some magic with a low prevalence... and as this "magic" becomes more and more available, it was made easier and easier to use.... but even today for all the technology, you need a world wide logistics to get is sustained and powered. Same may be true for a world were magic users have the ability to impregnate the magic into something and then make some kind of power source, which may have to be reloaded somehow. If an industry arises from it, wehere magic fire ball scrolls are mass produced, and fire mages simply make the last rune to get it worked... we are on a level, where a fire ball is as common as a riffle in the wild west.
And therefore such magic worlds, would be like a tech world. And if you think far enough into our furutre, there may be humans with a machine interface or some cyber-upgrades. They can then talkk with the tech sphere and will be like the mages, as their thoughts are brought directly into action, whilst the non-techno people have no direct power. The only exception may be, that you either have a magical talent by birht or not, and even this may be changed if a mighty wizard may be capable to transfer some magical skill into a newborn...
Yes! That is the exact point I'm trying to get at, though I'm not sure how well I actually convey it. That is exactly how tech can seem like magic and magic can function like tech in a world.
The difference is a technical distinction. Take cell phones. With the right knowledge and materials, anyone in our world could technically create the device. Unlikely, but the natural laws of the world allow it. But what if the phone batteries could ONLY be made by people with the O+ blood type? They effectively become the special magic users that control an important part of the process. Science and understanding might develop to the point that we can replicate that special aspect of O+ blood that makes it work, but until then they are the only ones capable of completing that step
To 8:00 then an artist like an excellent singer, a painter, a very skilled smith is a magician...caus give any one some paint and a brush, or a violine, or hammer , coal and iron... and you will see how limited the produrction capability for some poeple is, even if they try and try...
The other aspect to remember is the definition of magic. Any effect or ability beyond your capability or understanding.
Singing, painting, and smithing aren't beyond our capability. True, you might not match someone elses quality of work, but that's a matter of time and skill, not technical capability. If it helps, we can narrow it to say "if the natural laws of the world would allow anyone to create it, then it's technology"
If I have to have a specific genetic trait to hit specific singing notes, then you may be right.
As always, take what works for you and ignore what doesn't. I hope this video has at least given you some things to think about and help you organize your thoughts on your own system
@@themagicengineer5314 I wouldn't say this in that way... for a magician, it is clear how it works, they can teach you to a given level, but for lets say a higher level, you need skill. Some kind of inborn ability...for example, I am biochemist and physicist... simply out of having fun with it... many very complicated equations are for me like reading news paper... and solving them is more a simple knowing... than an understanding, how i get to the solution... is it magic? for some yes, but even for me to teach oters to see, is like to explain as spider how you see the world to a bird... it is compeltely different,.... so is it magic?? all would say no, but if there is a way to explain someone how to manipulate space time with your will, or even matter by thought, than it would be magic? Even if you can explain, how the brain basically tells the muscles to work?.. i simply wanted to say, that some kind of perfection in a skill, may be also some kind of inborn magic, if you like to say so, as it may not be teachable...to that extend...
@@real-timelabel-freeimaging4653 I see what you're saying now. That would be a great way to integrate a magic system into an otherwise mundane setting! That definitely blurs the lines between tech and magic
You obviously have not paid sufficient attention to the existence of "magical items" which are a simple way to transfer magic between persons, where the only real stumbling block is access to resources. And a lot has to do with how well the fundamental knowledge on which either magic or technology is based (think of the late 19th/early 20th-century understanding of x-rays).
I talk about magic items in my example around 5:30 and I get into what you're talking about around 7:30
Fly or be invisible? Keep on with those questions. Then change it to majick ive learn that people do lie in a sertent way.leading to a YES as for your production fit your ways in there lol.
This definitely confirms my suspicions that the magic system I've been kicking around for a while is a lot more like technology. In my world magic is produced by living things and everyone has the ability to control it after a certain age. This no doubt makes it a lot more like fire or electricity, allowing it to be used for all sorts of other things
Well I don’t have all the info, but if it’s comming with age and it’s not created, as a cellphone for example, but it comes from the body itself, then it is more like a physical ability.
I heard once that humans in fantasy are not the same as humans in real life. Examples like this may be why. The body is just not built the same even if on surface, it may look like that.
@@Wolltazar I suppose your right about it being a physical ability. In this case it certainly makes the humans in my world very different from our own, as they are able to channel their own magic and at times magic from the world around them through use an organ that we don't have. I also imagine them as being more durable than we are so they can handle getting hit with a spell or two before going down. Though I suppose magic can still be used in technology, just the magic itself isn't technology.
So in the end, magic is just technology available to strict community that just were born that way, and there no way for artificial recreation (like environment, but it still can affect*) to become a magic user.
*in Star wars we see some races that more force sensetive then others, but it's not actually made the whole race of jedi.
Kind of. I'm trying to say that magic is anything where some step of the creation process is limited to a specific community by the natural laws of the world. Granted, you can immulate this effect by forcing that limitation thorugh other means (financial, social, religious, etc.)
Exactly. I'm thinking your definition can be academic because technology use can be limited by law or trade secret. Nuclear weapons, stealth aircraft, even something relatively low tech like machine guns (heck, pistols in most countries, even folding knives). "Only the warrior class may wield these weapons." But it is mostly one way - technology use can be restricted but a magic system inherently limited to a few magic users can't be open to everyone even if the magic users wanted that.
But there are degrees. Most people can use a smartphone. In principle they can also be trained to program a mainframe but practically they can't. Just like few people can be trained to do complex math. I'd add extreme sports too. If most people don't have the physical ability or fearlessness to do parkour or mountain climbing, are those magic?
There's also mindset. In his book Range, David Epstein talks about rural folk who cannot group objects into abstract classes (cooking items, vehicles) and will argue against it even when explained to them. Whereas their children, exposed to modern education, have no such problem.
@@kit888 Absolutely. I actually wondered if this video was a bit to academic and involved too much hair-splitting, but hopefully it's still helpful and/or interesting for people
How about district 9’s energy weapons the aliens use.
I actually haven't seen District 9 so I can't comment. What is it about the technology you were wondering about?
I started calling this a power system.
Started calling what a power system? Magic systems in general, or were you talking more about magic-tech?
lol.
"...the means of production". So, you are a Marxist then, I see... (must say: I do not use the term as an ugly word. Was one myself, for most my adult life. Still see some valid arguments and concepts in dialectic materialism, despite counting myself as a former Marxist).
I wonder, if only mages can use magic, but we get ourselves a slaver society where non-mages are the free people. And those non-mages can buy and sell mages more or less like we buy and sell guns. Walking mages around more or less like those Qunari fellows in Dragon Age 2, but in a more free marketing economy. Does that means magic became technology, since you are now able to pass easily?
Perhaps we leave slavery aside, for the sake of argument. Let's say they are some sort of non-talking animals, your spell-casting mages. Like a sort of animal that you could carry in a magic ball, of something like that. Are those animals a technological product?
The technology that allows us to traine and breed horses and dogs is arguably not essentially distinct from the technology that allows us to make fire weapons like revolvers. We use both without thinking much about the mixing (obviously knowing there are some objective diferences between a living animal and a piece of metal artistically worked in industrial scale).
When we look things not from the point of view of individuals but from the point of view of society there is any difference between a industry fabricating spells and a industry breeding spell-making animals and training them? In the core, are both options the same thing?
If they are (now, going back to me original point) then all we need to do to change magic into technology is slave the mages. So, we can start breeding them, and passing them around like guns.
I am assuming we even need to "slave" someone. What means the assumption that there is such thing as individual freedom for someone. Under most technological circumstances more likely than not that is not the case.
Everybody is already born with a life long mission. In service of some purpose greater than personal whims. Such as a Deity, family, nation, or what have you. From the head of the most powerful state to the lowest vagabond no one is really "free" in the modern sense of the world. That often is taken for granted in pop culture.
But now I am digressing.
all valid points and some great ideas. I guess that does come down to your definition of technology. If you'd include things like domestication and animal husbandry as technology, then yes :) It certainly could have a similar impact on society as tecchnology and I've never thought about it that way before
Seize the means of magical production!!! Lol