On your stationary targets, you forgot the role that centrifugal force plays with help breaking the targets or assisting in help segments separate after being hit by pellets
Something that we thought about, but talked to an aerospace engineer who felt that the RPMs were too low to make a huge difference. Secondly, wouldn’t have been able to count hits on a spinning target (can’t afford the $50k camera that would let us see those hits, haha)
@@claylabusa was the areospace engineer a Clay target shooter? All I have is years and years of experience and all the hours behind the gun both as a shooter and instructor. It plays a role for sure.
@@claysnwingsshotgunning Amorphous solids don't break gradually. Cracks either propagate or they do not, there are no half measures. Pitch, the binder in sporting clays, is an amorphous solid, very similar to glass. Sure, seeing a clay chip flying energetically off of a spinning clay might lead you to believe the spinning helped it detach, but the crack will propagate, or it will not. There are no half measures, or slight cracks. I am sure in your years of experience you've seen a kid shoot a BB through a window and the window didn't shatter, just a hole appeared with a crater on one side? Spinning that window wouldn't have made a bit of difference, because amorphous solids either crack, or they do not.
I have heard that if the clays are wet, they don't spin well off the trap therefore they are harder to break. Thus, no centrifugal force to aid in breaking the clay
As a data and analytics guy, I loved seeing this breakdown, especially the differences in number of pellets per type of shell but then taking that knowledge and applying some physics to it. But as we all have to do, test, test, test. That was probably the most fun part!
I've picked you guys up from TGS US open vid and as an engineer about to come into the sport, I'm hooked to your channel from here on. Mythbusters/clay shooting love it!!
Thanks! That’s exactly what we’re going for. Glad you found our channel. Those guys over at TGS are awesome. We had a great time hanging out with Johnny and Sasha at the US Open. They’re the best in the business
I tend to follow Anthony Matarese’s suggestion. Shoot 8 shot at traditional sporting, reserving 7.5 if your feel like you need it on rabbits. Then FITASC shoot exclusively 7.5 due to typically further targets of 50+yards. This seems to match up with your findings that 8 shot is suitable out to 50 yards. Also my experience as well. -Fellow F3 Shooter as well.
Thanks, I think that’s a great assessment and you bring up an interesting point! Absolutely no reason why you couldn’t carry both with you and use them situationally. Clearly Anthony Matarese knows as much about this subject as anybody out there, so definitely a reliable source! It’s also interesting to note that, if you use 1 1/8 oz of #7.5 shot, it’s about the same number of pellets as 1 oz of #8 shot. I feel like I heard somebody mention that recently (maybe it was that podcast that Anthony did recently).
Looking forward to more shot videos along with different chokes paired with different shot sizes. Definitely looking forward to shogun pattern testing and results too. Thanks for a great channel.
I agree. Different chokes do seem to make a difference - for example, Rhino patterns are tighter than certain Brileys and factory chokes that I've used. @@claylabusa
great video. I've been a big fan of using 7/8 oz 12 ga loads at higher velocities (around 1250-1300 fps) which allow me to do very well breaking targets at close to mid range with #9 magnum shot. I use #8.5 shot at the above velocities for longer-range targets with good results. Velocity, size of loads, and distance to the target, in addition to the shot size, obviously have a sig impact on the ability to break targets. so many variables.
Several years ago at Nationals, a rabbit target was thrown straight away from maybe 15 yds, low angle on edge on the subgauge course. While waiting for our turn, my group was amazed that no one was breaking the target. When it was our turn, we did no better. On a local course, we were recently given the same target presentation, but shooting 12 gauge. A very simple, easy target that was broken less than 25% of the time. With a standard clay, it would have been broken 95+%. After the shoot was over, we drove over to the pile of unbroken clays and almost all had multiple strikes on the edge that didn't break the clay. At a later date, same station and trap position; the trajectory was elevated slightly so some of the top of the rabbit target was visible. This target was broken almost as easily as a standard clay. I remember a rabbit target going almost straight away that was impossible to break even though the grass was exploding all around the target. Be aware of a rabbit target with an on edge presentation!
Yeah! Always wild to see pictures of rabbits that look like Swiss cheese but still intact. We’ll likely tackle rabbit targets separately at some point down the line
I shoot primarily sporting clays and turn in my best scores with 7.5 shot. I always use improved modified and modified chokes as well. I know it wasn't discussed, but I shoot with a couple guys that are always changing chokes. I feel that when I get used to a shot size and choke in my Caesar Guerini, I stick with it.
I just came across your channel and I'm liking what you're doing. I'm a trap shooter and I like #8 for 16yrd line and #7.5 for handycap, but for me it has more to do with weather. Hot weather I'll run #8 to the fence but in the cold I need the #7.5 for solid breaks.
I agree, I think that would be an interesting subject for a future video. A lot of people suspect light modified is the most versatile, but would be interesting to actually see if that's the case. Thanks for the suggestion!
@@claylabusa I shoot Clays with a Browning Crossover Target 30in. Recently, my score has gone up 10% by switching my chokes from IC/MOD to Skeet/IC. I carry a MOD in my pocket for a long tower shot.
I have been shooting since i was 9 and i shot with my middle & high school teams. With that being said, I agree with you. #8 is a great shot for anything below 50 yards. I personally use 7.5 for anything over 35/40 yards and rabbits. I have never had an issue choosing the shot size and always stuck with 7.5 & 8. But recently, i have been trying the 1350fps shots and it feels like it makes a difference but that might just be in my head. i would love to see a video on the FPS aspect of shells. Overall, great video.
Over the years of shooting the Spirting Clays games, I’ll call them, I’ve come to depend almost solely upon the light mod. chokes in both barrels using primarily 7 1/2 shot and less so 8 shot with reliable results through my Browning 425 30” barreled o/u. I appreciate this video series as it offers food for thought for sure and maybe my choice of shot/ choke selection has been a limiting factor in my furthering success as a shooter. I’ll have to look into it. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it and hopefully found some value in it...I've had many people take away different things but everyone interpreted the information on their own however they thought best.
Excellent video. For trap I once thought if I'm using a #8 shot, then maybe I could try a IC choke instead of a Mod as the extra pellets would fill the increased spread, and the larger spread would help hit more targets. That didn't go well, scores went way down. There are so many variables! This video helped a lot. Thanks for a great effort.
Love your channel! Especially the “Science of” series. I’m a longtime bird hunter but getting more and more into clays. I’d like to echo the “choke” requests. I think it would be interesting to see the effectiveness of the wider chokes at progressively longer distances and the spread widths of tighter chokes as the distances progress.
I've always thought #8 is the best all around shot size. If you want to use one shot size for everything, #8 would be the best choice. But there are always niche sizes. I use #9 for skeet, #8 for trap, 5 stand and most sporting clays targets. Regarding sporting clays, I use 1 oz. of #8 most of the time but I always keep a few 1 1/8 oz. 7.5's in my opposite pocket just in case.
Thanks! Yeah, #8 is pretty effective at closer ranges. We’re gonna do a follow-up video for long range, but expect #7.5 to dominate beyond 50 yards…will have to see, though!
I'm fortunate that I recently started practice in my yard. My missed clays land in tall thick grass and usually don't break, so I pick them up. I was shocked at how many are actually hit by one or more pellets but don't break or chip. Myself and the guys I shoot with, we use 7.5 or 8's . Whatever Walmart has because they have the best price. I prefer Federal 8 shot when I can get it.
Yeah, that’s the trick these days…in a perfect world, would like to be able to stick to a particular shell and shot size. These days, it’s more about using what you can find
I understand one video cannot take everything into consideration but one thing thats worthy of taking into consideration is the big difference between stationary and moving targets. When a stationary target is hit with a pellet or pellets and it cracks but doesn't come apart, it seems like that would be a miss. However, if that same target was spinning thru the air as a clay target does, that same hit or hits would likely be a broken target because centrifugal force created by the spinning target would pull the clay apart at the crack(s). This came to my mind thinking back to my trap days. An old trap shooter told me once he liked to use #7.5's for the 2nd shot on doubles trap because the longer range target was spinning less than a normal trap target. This lack of spinning decreased centrifugal force making the target a little harder to break.
I will be shooting sporting for the first time this summer. I am coming from an 8 or 9 year trap shooting background so I am debating on bringing one of my field guns or using my trap gun which has a 70/30 poi. I typically shoot 8s or 7.5s for trap but I am experimenting with high antimony 8.5 shot. Basically I am trying to learn what I can before I go and these videos have been extremely helpful.
I like 1-1/8oz 7.5 for clays - absolutely no science involved but I seem to break more birds - long crossers are hard enough to break, 7.5 just feels right
No doubt that 1-1/8 oz is ideal if you can handle the recoil and if not shooting FITASC. I personally find that I’m a wimp, and prefer 1 oz loads. It’s a good reason to go with a semi auto though 🤷♂️
I am super curious to see what the shot column length is in flight between 1oz and 1 1/8oz. My thought is that a white board about 30 yards in front of the barrel, maybe 4' wide, with a high speed camera setup perpendicular to the shot. The goal would be to measure the shot column from front to back. My assumption is that the 1 1/8oz would be a longer column and would give you some forgiveness if you were in front of the target. I know it's splitting hairs, but I think it would be an interesting data point!
Very interesting idea! Have heard a few people talk about the shot column, also in relation to whether you get any kind of lateral spread with movement of the gun (of the two, I think front to back length like you mention would play more of a role). At a minimum, sounds like a good excuse for us to get an ultra high speed camera ;)
Really good series! I shoot 7.5 & 8’s interchangeably. Pending on what I can find in 20 ga. My club can get anything but 20’s. Big box stores have 20 ga sometimes.
Fewer pellets are required to break a spinning target than you experienced shooting a stationary target due to the stress of the centrifugal forces imparted on the target by the thrower.
So something you are missing here is a clay in motion colliding with pellets means that the impact forces are going to be greater. I use a 9 steel which is lighter for skeet means a great pattern density, but 7 1/2 Gamebore lead white Gold for sporting.
Thanks, certainly a valid point. That’s the main reason we actually took our data for comparison from shooting at moving targets in the second half of the video. Also had an interesting discussion with an aerospace engineer about it…we really ought to make a separate video on the physics of sporting clays…
@@claylabusa Oh I agree you did good work on the 2nd half for sure, I shoot English skeet, and has to be steel shot, the 9s at the distance for skeet are Perfect. Really enjoy your content and love the thoroughness of your work, I was just suggesting that the speed of which the clays were thrown will make a difference to the breaks were making, so rising teal stalling out vs a screaming crosser would make the difference here in visuals. Would love you to do a pattern density / clay breaking experiment with steel shot as we seem to be being forced in this direction - I have to because it's over marsh land but would be interesting to see what comes up and can't wait to see the physic video!
Yeah! Appreciate the feedback for sure. Always like new ideas, so keep them coming! Will have to check out the steel shot. Main thing you see it used for in the US at the moment is duck hunting, but wouldn’t be totally surprised to see it happen with clay shooting eventually.
Worth noting are the different international shot sizes, in particular the most common 28g = 1oz load used in 'English Sporting': [7 UK = 7.5 US = 340 Pellets @ 2.4mm] | [7.5 UK = 8 US = 400 Pellets @ 2.3mm] | [8 UK = N/A US = 450 Pellets @ 2.2mm] | [9 UK = 9/9.5 US = 580 Pellets @ 2.0mm] -extract 'CPSA (Clay Pigeon Shooting Association) Clay Target Shooters Handbook'. Also, shot size [6 UK = 270 Pellets @ 2.6mm] is allowed in clay target shooting, especially long distance targets in Sporting...
Probably 95% of clay shooters here in Ireland use 7.5 shot, and absolutely everyone uses 1 ounce loads. I don't think you can even get trap shells in 1 1/8 ounce ( game shells, sure, up to 2 ounce, but that gets very pricey). Been trying number 8's from Bornagi recently, and like them, but if you point it in the right place 3/4 ounce 7.5 kills perfectly well.
That's very interesting. Are there a wide variety of manufacturers selling shotgun shells in Ireland? One thing I have often noticed in the US is that shooters using semi-automatic shotguns often use heavier 1 1/8 oz loads, as they can handle the recoil more easily. I personally prefer 1 oz loads due to lower recoil.
@@claylabusa Yeah, probably 4 or 5 UK manufacturers sell here and the same number of Italian brands, the most famous of which are probably Fiocchi. Couple of French brands too, Clever and Joker, but sometimes supply gets interrupted. Most of these come into Ireland through distributors in the UK, and Brexit has messed up the supply lines a bit. We get Winchester and Remington too, of course. Clay shells have gone up in price this ladt 18 months, not much to be got for less than Euro 220 per thousand, standard clay shell is 1 oz of 7.5 shot. 1 oz. is 28 grams, we are gradually converting to the metric system. Common for youngsters to use a 12 bore shotgun with either a 21 or 24 gram load, which translates to a 3/4 ounce load and a 7/8 ounce load, to keep recoil down. Few use a 20 bore, they are a bit light and even with a 21 gram load can be a bit "punchy" on a beginner. 20 bore shells are about 30% more expensive too. Here is a link to a gun shop near me. wildhunter.ie/collections/shotgun-cartridges?page=2
Agreed! They’re excellent shells. We’re getting ready to film a dedicated episode covering Fiocchi’s full line of competition shells. They have a pretty broad range of different shells
I spent a lot of time at the pattern board. Was really surprised at how much the pattern changes from shot size, amount of shot and what barrel the chokes are in. Rhino full in top barrel of a browning 725 pro sporting. 1 oz fiocchi dynamic 1200 fps #8. Was the size of a basket ball. No flyers, 50/50 split. Moved to the bottom barrel and filled up the 30" cirle. 60/40 There is data to believe that the top barrel is .001 tigher than the bottom. I personally have not measured to verify that statement. But the pattern board doesn't lie. Trulock full in bottom had an open pattern with open spots well over the 30" circle. In Top barrel no openings and slightly bigger than 30" circle. Borh were 60/40 Same tests with 1 1/8 and everything changes.
Nice! At the end of the day it is likely the best practice for folks to shoot and pattern their own gun with their preferred ammunition just to know as every gun is not the same just as every shell doesn't perform the same.
Yeah, that’s a ton of pellets to be sending at a clay target, if you can handle the recoil! Hard to imagine a better load at close range. Do you tend to shoot an over-under or semi auto?
Have you done 7/8oz vs 1oz vs 1 1/8oz Obviously more shot will be better but al lot better? Maybe 1,200 vs 1,300fps as well (with same shot load) Since watching this video I’ve switched to #8 1,200fps 7/8oz and to be honest, it’s a big recoil difference and I can’t tell any handicap in breaking clays.
Captured this comment to put into the list! Thank you for commenting. I'll take a look into finding a good way to demonstrate the differences in shot payload.
Thanks! We ran into somebody at a recent shoot who mentioned their #8.5 shot and how well it performed. I bet at the distances we generally shoot in sporting clays (50 yards or less), you wouldn’t see a tremendous difference between 8 and 8.5, and you would get that improved pattern density.
Alrigh, guys, here's one that I'd love to see you tackle. Is there any performance difference between extended choke tubes and flush fit? Does that last inch matter(lol!), or is it simply weight and convenience? How about choke tube porting and recoil? Lots of videos looking at density and brand differences, but nothing scientific on these issues/questions.
What was the hardness of the shot in the shell? That makes a big difference. Shoot continental league and in the rain I could see i was hitting the clays but not breaking. I was using Fioochi shooting dynamic. Bought little Rhino and saw a improvement. Both were 1 oz 1200 fps #8.according to the charts i could find the only difference was the hardness.
Many others have tested the hardness of these shells used so we didnt deam it necessary hut here are some of their results.The Fiocchi Target Shooting Dynamics pellets: The average crush for 10 pellets tested was 0.029" which placed it as "soft." The Fiocchi Exacta Target "Little Rino" pellets: The average crush for 10 pellets tested was 0.025 which is "medium." Hope that helps!
That is the same data I have found.A guy who posts to "trapshooter" does testing. Said dynamic is 2% and that 7 1/2 measures #8. I might to break some down and measure it myself. Keep up the great work. I have suggested this video when people ask what I am shooting for sporting clays and continental.
This test doesn't take into consideration that the target is spinning and the chances are increased when hit they'll break. I learned this when I was at a state shoot and a ol' timer and I were having a tough time with targets. He said "its hard to break them whey aren't spinning" . Really ? I've learned the reason for this is that the rubber on the throw arms are hard and smooth from use. If you take a 30 grit sans paper the the rubber you'll eliminate them being thrown Vs. Spun. IMHO C U on the line!
Sorry for the delay but yes the chokes were matching however now a days I bet with us being better shooters we get different results in the overall shootout.
I have a question I'd like to ask. I've never got a straight, proven answer. Why can't you shoot a 20ga along side the 12ga guys in a tournament. You have to join a sub guage event. I've shot both a lot. Other than weight. I can't tell the difference. 1 oz. Of 7.5 is the same from a 20 as a 12 at 1200fps.
That's interesting because I'm not sure who is saying you can't. A lot of people including youth shoot 20ga in main events at regionals, nationals and worlds. Also in sub gauge many shot 28ga for both 20 & 28ga events for basically the same reason you mentioned. 🤔
@claylabusa I just assumed you couldn't. Because they always have the main classified as 12ga. And all other guages as sub gauges. I didnt know if nsca had rules against it or not.
Hey! Thanks for the question. Here are the chokes we were using… Field Test #1: Jeremy - Blaser F3 with factory .410 chokes (made by Briley) Stainless steel Skeet constriction (0.005) Field Test #2 and #3: Jeremy- Same as above (in 12 gauge) Scott- Beretta A400 XTREME with Rhino Generation 1 competition choke Titanium, ported Skeet 2 constriction (0.007) Jereme “JP”- Krieghoff K-80 Pro Sporter with factory chokes Titanium Skeet constriction (0.005) CJ: Browning 725 Sporting with factory chokes Stainless steel Skeet constriction (0.005) We were intentionally using open chokes to limit the number of pellets hitting the targets (to better show a difference between shot sizes). Be on the lookout for future episodes where we will be trying out chokes from different manufacturers! Aftermarket chokes are a big part of the clay shooting industry, so it’s a subject we’re all super curious about.
@@claylabusa like I said in a previous comment my history is in trap and won high school competitions with “full and imod” chokes and getting into sporting clays I shoot a “light modified and modified” I don’t have any issues with them but it the biggest choke in sporting clays seems to be “improved cyclinder” I just can’t bring myself to use one, but nice to see this video was done with skeet chokes. If you do a choke episode or two can you test extend vs. flush tubes
Yeah, I’m with you on the tighter chokes in actual competition. I personally shoot double light modified in my Blaser for the courses near me. A lot of people love the Krieghoff parcours with fixed IM and M choked barrels. Thanks for the idea on the flush vs extended chokes. Would be interesting to see if added length affects the pattern…
Steel shot is going to be lighter by a considerable margin, so don’t think our finding would apply. I’m guessing you could also find a “sweet spot” with steel, though.
Here are the chokes we used in this episode. We intentionally used open chokes to limit the number of pellets hitting the target. Field Test #1: Jeremy - Blaser F3 with factory .410 chokes (made by Briley) Stainless steel Skeet constriction (0.005) Field Test #2 and #3: Jeremy- Same as above (in 12 gauge) Scott- Beretta A400 XTREME with Rhino Generation 1 competition choke Titanium, ported Skeet 2 constriction (0.007) Jereme “JP”- Krieghoff K-80 Pro Sporter with factory chokes Titanium Skeet constriction (0.005) CJ: Browning 725 Sporting with factory chokes Stainless steel Skeet constriction (0.005)
Good test methodology, but you introduced a variable that basically skewed your results. It should have been a single shooter (a constant) with different shot sizes, as one of the shooters may shoot better thus skewing the outcome . Just my 2 cents worth.
Absolutely 💯 mostly for entertainment as many people has told me they came to all sorts of different conclusions. One of the first videos from back in the day. May redo some of these tests at some point
@@claylabusa dumb question. Can 7.5s pattern better than 8s? Reason I'm asking, I ended up buying a case of 7.5s and I shot really well with it. Found 8s and I thought I'd really knock them dead and I shot so terrible. Halfway through the course I switch back to 7.5s and started shooting well again. I'm talking my text so forgive me. I know with my hunting chokes I would always pattern my ammo to see what shot best
This video has been really making me think... So, it seems to me... If you hit the target straight on, either #7.5 or #8 will break everything the same. So, it's the near miss that makes the difference... If you only get 5 pellets of #7.5 on a clay that equates to 6.45 ft-lb of kinetic energy into that target. WIth a denser pattern of #8 you may be likely to put 6 pellets with that same shot placement which would be delivering 6.54 ft-lbs of KE. That's really close with a slight edge to the smaller #8 balls. To me, this reveals the "sweet spot" for shooting sporting where the distances and types of clays can vary a lot. I'm shooting #8 from now on, unless I can save at least $5 on a case of 250 #7.5. 🙂
Very interesting. I love to see how people interpret the information as I've had others state that this is actually why they only shoot #7.5s haha all and all, confidence in whatever load you shoot is what matters. If you think it'll break it then you'll be more confident in your shoot process and execute without doubt IMHO -JP
It would affect things, so we standardized it amongst all three shooters. Might have been slight variations from one manufacturer to another, but should stay fairly consistent. Now…should you shoot a tighter choke when using 7.5 vs 8 to keep the density the same? That would be an interesting question to look at some day
The scientific question is how much force is required to crack a clay pigeon at various locations on the target. Is the kinetic energy in a single #7 1/2, #8, #8 1/2 or #9 capable of breaking the target at normal contact range. If not, how many pellets of each size is required? Being capable of launch a specific number of pellets at a fixed speed into the target, edge on, as most targets are encountered would be best. Additionally, the centrifugal force of the spinning target needs to be included in the experiment as the spinning clay is trying to break apart but is held together by the shear strength of the material. Hitting targets earlier rather than later in flight produces higher percentage of breaks not just because of pattern density but also because the spin rate is higher earlier in flight imparting greater centrifugal force on the target. Good stuff, but would love to see you go deeper while better controlling variables.
Best place to see updated prices on Pillas is through ClayTargetVision.com. If you’re looking at placing an order, highly recommend talking to them over the phone to get their input on lens selection OR catch up with them at a large event and try out the lenses yourself
Hey, thanks for the feedback! Yeah, I definitely agree that spinning / moving targets are a better, more representative test. For Part 1, there wasn’t a great way to consistently see the pellets hit the target if it was moving, so we started with them stationary. I actually had a long and interesting conversation about that very subject with my brother-in-law, who is an aerospace engineer. I was thinking that centrifugal force and drag from the targets starting to break would pull the targets apart more easily, but he felt that those forces are actually pretty negligible with relatively slow rotational velocity or the clays and slow speeds. His main critique was the angle at which we were hitting the targets (straight on, right at the dome). For the long range test, we’re going to try to rig them from some fishing line or something. The cardboard may have also absorbed some of the force. Anyway, thanks again for the feedback! Always looking for ways to tweak our “experiments” to make them better the next time :)
My experience shows that my gun patterns 7 1/2 better and certain manufacturers made up to 20 percent better patterns. Test your gun/chokes/shells, it can surprise you.
Have heard similar things, especially in regards to certain shells patterning well in certain guns. Once the ammunition shortage in the US eases up, I’ll have to experiment with that in my gun. We’re also looking at doing a video covering shot speed
Yeah, can see your point. It’s actually something we considered both before and after the test, but ran into two issues: 1) It would be difficult to rig a target to be spinning and stationary. Without it being still, can’t get a camera close enough to see number of hits. 2) ran it by my brother-in-law who is an aerospace engineer and he said that both the movement of the target through the air and the centrifugal force are so negligible compared to the kinetic energy of the shot as to make no real difference. Essentially, not spinning fast enough for a small structural defect (like a single pellet striking it) to make a target break differently. More on that in a future video! Either way, thanks for the feedback!
On your stationary targets, you forgot the role that centrifugal force plays with help breaking the targets or assisting in help segments separate after being hit by pellets
Something that we thought about, but talked to an aerospace engineer who felt that the RPMs were too low to make a huge difference. Secondly, wouldn’t have been able to count hits on a spinning target (can’t afford the $50k camera that would let us see those hits, haha)
@@claylabusa was the areospace engineer a Clay target shooter? All I have is years and years of experience and all the hours behind the gun both as a shooter and instructor. It plays a role for sure.
@@claysnwingsshotgunning Amorphous solids don't break gradually. Cracks either propagate or they do not, there are no half measures. Pitch, the binder in sporting clays, is an amorphous solid, very similar to glass.
Sure, seeing a clay chip flying energetically off of a spinning clay might lead you to believe the spinning helped it detach, but the crack will propagate, or it will not.
There are no half measures, or slight cracks.
I am sure in your years of experience you've seen a kid shoot a BB through a window and the window didn't shatter, just a hole appeared with a crater on one side?
Spinning that window wouldn't have made a bit of difference, because amorphous solids either crack, or they do not.
I have heard that if the clays are wet, they don't spin well off the trap therefore they are harder to break. Thus, no centrifugal force to aid in breaking the clay
@@claysnwingsshotgunning ABSOLUTELY plays a huge role in breaking the targets into pieces.
As a data and analytics guy, I loved seeing this breakdown, especially the differences in number of pellets per type of shell but then taking that knowledge and applying some physics to it. But as we all have to do, test, test, test. That was probably the most fun part!
Absolutely! For as much work as it is to do videos, it can undoubtedly be a lot of fun!
Thank you for using targets that explode… or smoke when they break. This really made your video more enjoyable to watch.
Absolutely, they can be hard to get ahold of but felt it was important to try to explain the premise of the game.
I've picked you guys up from TGS US open vid and as an engineer about to come into the sport, I'm hooked to your channel from here on. Mythbusters/clay shooting love it!!
Thanks! That’s exactly what we’re going for. Glad you found our channel. Those guys over at TGS are awesome. We had a great time hanging out with Johnny and Sasha at the US Open. They’re the best in the business
Look for the shotgunning series on Surviving Duck Season. You will geek out as an engineer. I did.
I tend to follow Anthony Matarese’s suggestion. Shoot 8 shot at traditional sporting, reserving 7.5 if your feel like you need it on rabbits. Then FITASC shoot exclusively 7.5 due to typically further targets of 50+yards. This seems to match up with your findings that 8 shot is suitable out to 50 yards. Also my experience as well. -Fellow F3 Shooter as well.
Thanks, I think that’s a great assessment and you bring up an interesting point! Absolutely no reason why you couldn’t carry both with you and use them situationally. Clearly Anthony Matarese knows as much about this subject as anybody out there, so definitely a reliable source!
It’s also interesting to note that, if you use 1 1/8 oz of #7.5 shot, it’s about the same number of pellets as 1 oz of #8 shot. I feel like I heard somebody mention that recently (maybe it was that podcast that Anthony did recently).
I'd shoot 8s if I can see under edge of the clay.
For rabbit 6s are better, I pick up many rabbit targets with shot grazing on them but didn't break.
I like the way 7.5 breaks anything
Got my shotgun license today after a year long application super excited tp learn this stuff thanks guys. From the uk hence the license
Congratulations on the license! Have you decided what you are going to buy? So many great choices there in the UK!
@ Hugh Redmayne, Congratulations from the U.S. I would love to go to the UK on a pheasant, or other bird hunt. The entire experience looks so formal.
Looking forward to more shot videos along with different chokes paired with different shot sizes. Definitely looking forward to shogun pattern testing and results too. Thanks for a great channel.
Thanks! We’ll definitely have to look at that in the future.
I agree. Different chokes do seem to make a difference - for example, Rhino patterns are tighter than certain Brileys and factory chokes that I've used. @@claylabusa
Excellent production ! Very well done and very useful indeed !
Thank you! Gonna keep getting after it!
great video. I've been a big fan of using 7/8 oz 12 ga loads at higher velocities (around 1250-1300 fps) which allow me to do very well breaking targets at close to mid range with #9 magnum shot. I use #8.5 shot at the above velocities for longer-range targets with good results. Velocity, size of loads, and distance to the target, in addition to the shot size, obviously have a sig impact on the ability to break targets. so many variables.
Thanks you. This was very helpful and professionally presented.
Thanks! Much appreciated!
Several years ago at Nationals, a rabbit target was thrown straight away from maybe 15 yds, low angle on edge on the subgauge course. While waiting for our turn, my group was amazed that no one was breaking the target. When it was our turn, we did no better. On a local course, we were recently given the same target presentation, but shooting 12 gauge. A very simple, easy target that was broken less than 25% of the time. With a standard clay, it would have been broken 95+%. After the shoot was over, we drove over to the pile of unbroken clays and almost all had multiple strikes on the edge that didn't break the clay. At a later date, same station and trap position; the trajectory was elevated slightly so some of the top of the rabbit target was visible. This target was broken almost as easily as a standard clay. I remember a rabbit target going almost straight away that was impossible to break even though the grass was exploding all around the target. Be aware of a rabbit target with an on edge presentation!
Yeah! Always wild to see pictures of rabbits that look like Swiss cheese but still intact. We’ll likely tackle rabbit targets separately at some point down the line
Nicely done. Very informative. Good presentation.
Thank you!
I shoot primarily sporting clays and turn in my best scores with 7.5 shot. I always use improved modified and modified chokes as well. I know it wasn't discussed, but I shoot with a couple guys that are always changing chokes. I feel that when I get used to a shot size and choke in my Caesar Guerini, I stick with it.
I’m like you. I shoot a fixed choke gun now and don’t give it much thought these days. Only rarely do I wish I had an open choke (like a close rabbit)
Great video. I am looking forward to a video like this shot at longer range. These guys are good shooters.
In the UK we are often restricted to 1oz loads on clay grounds , which means smaller shot or more choke to fill the pattern.
I’m pretty used to shooting 1oz on a regular basis myself. I like the lower recoil
I just came across your channel and I'm liking what you're doing. I'm a trap shooter and I like #8 for 16yrd line and #7.5 for handycap, but for me it has more to do with weather. Hot weather I'll run #8 to the fence but in the cold I need the #7.5 for solid breaks.
That's a really interesting point about how temperature affects things. We may have to look into that in a future video!
Nice, We usually go 9 on Skeet and 7.5 Trap
Those certainly seem like reasonable choices. I know a lot of people who do the same.
Would love to see a video on choke selection.
I agree, I think that would be an interesting subject for a future video. A lot of people suspect light modified is the most versatile, but would be interesting to actually see if that's the case. Thanks for the suggestion!
@@claylabusa I shoot Clays with a Browning Crossover Target 30in. Recently, my score has gone up 10% by switching my chokes from IC/MOD to Skeet/IC. I carry a MOD in my pocket for a long tower shot.
Yeah let’s revisit this again.
Great idea, I think we may... planning on linking up with Briley here soon.
I have been shooting since i was 9 and i shot with my middle & high school teams. With that being said, I agree with you. #8 is a great shot for anything below 50 yards. I personally use 7.5 for anything over 35/40 yards and rabbits. I have never had an issue choosing the shot size and always stuck with 7.5 & 8. But recently, i have been trying the 1350fps shots and it feels like it makes a difference but that might just be in my head. i would love to see a video on the FPS aspect of shells. Overall, great video.
Over the years of shooting the Spirting Clays games, I’ll call them, I’ve come to depend almost solely upon the light mod. chokes in both barrels using primarily 7 1/2 shot and less so 8 shot with reliable results through my Browning 425 30” barreled o/u. I appreciate this video series as it offers food for thought for sure and maybe my choice of shot/ choke selection has been a limiting factor in my furthering success as a shooter. I’ll have to look into it. Thanks
Absolutely awesome. Thank you
Glad you enjoyed it and hopefully found some value in it...I've had many people take away different things but everyone interpreted the information on their own however they thought best.
Really good video moor on long range clay targets 👍
Thanks! Definitely want to look at that in a future video
Excellent video. For trap I once thought if I'm using a #8 shot, then maybe I could try a IC choke instead of a Mod as the extra pellets would fill the increased spread, and the larger spread would help hit more targets. That didn't go well, scores went way down. There are so many variables! This video helped a lot. Thanks for a great effort.
Happy to here that! Of course it's not a perfect test but hoped it would provide some insight to folks looking for it. Thanks for being a subscriber!
Great video 👍👏
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
Love your channel! Especially the “Science of” series. I’m a longtime bird hunter but getting more and more into clays. I’d like to echo the “choke” requests. I think it would be interesting to see the effectiveness of the wider chokes at progressively longer distances and the spread widths of tighter chokes as the distances progress.
Thanks, great idea. We’d be interested to see those results ourselves!
I've always thought #8 is the best all around shot size. If you want to use one shot size for everything, #8 would be the best choice. But there are always niche sizes. I use #9 for skeet, #8 for trap, 5 stand and most sporting clays targets. Regarding sporting clays, I use 1 oz. of #8 most of the time but I always keep a few 1 1/8 oz. 7.5's in my opposite pocket just in case.
Great information. Going to try this as a new shooter
Thanks! Yeah, #8 is pretty effective at closer ranges. We’re gonna do a follow-up video for long range, but expect #7.5 to dominate beyond 50 yards…will have to see, though!
Clay targets come off the trap machine arm at 1700 RPM. Centrifugal force plays a big part in the target breaking.
I'm fortunate that I recently started practice in my yard. My missed clays land in tall thick grass and usually don't break, so I pick them up.
I was shocked at how many are actually hit by one or more pellets but don't break or chip.
Myself and the guys I shoot with, we use 7.5 or 8's .
Whatever Walmart has because they have the best price.
I prefer Federal 8 shot when I can get it.
Yeah, that’s the trick these days…in a perfect world, would like to be able to stick to a particular shell and shot size. These days, it’s more about using what you can find
Well done!
Thanks!
I understand one video cannot take everything into consideration but one thing thats worthy of taking into consideration is the big difference between stationary and moving targets. When a stationary target is hit with a pellet or pellets and it cracks but doesn't come apart, it seems like that would be a miss. However, if that same target was spinning thru the air as a clay target does, that same hit or hits would likely be a broken target because centrifugal force created by the spinning target would pull the clay apart at the crack(s). This came to my mind thinking back to my trap days. An old trap shooter told me once he liked to use #7.5's for the 2nd shot on doubles trap because the longer range target was spinning less than a normal trap target. This lack of spinning decreased centrifugal force making the target a little harder to break.
very impressive shooting gentlemen 👋
I will be shooting sporting for the first time this summer. I am coming from an 8 or 9 year trap shooting background so I am debating on bringing one of my field guns or using my trap gun which has a 70/30 poi. I typically shoot 8s or 7.5s for trap but I am experimenting with high antimony 8.5 shot. Basically I am trying to learn what I can before I go and these videos have been extremely helpful.
Clay pigeons and rabbits are known pests that can ruin the nearby crops. Good that you are helping keep the clay pigeon population down Scott
Haha, for sure. White Flyer makes them as fast as we can break ‘em, though
You guys put out great videos.
Thank you very much! It's just JP now so trying to keep it up!
I like 1-1/8oz 7.5 for clays - absolutely no science involved but I seem to break more birds
- long crossers are hard enough to break, 7.5 just feels right
No doubt that 1-1/8 oz is ideal if you can handle the recoil and if not shooting FITASC. I personally find that I’m a wimp, and prefer 1 oz loads. It’s a good reason to go with a semi auto though 🤷♂️
@@claylabusa agreed, I may be saying that because I shoot a very soft shooting semi auto
I am super curious to see what the shot column length is in flight between 1oz and 1 1/8oz. My thought is that a white board about 30 yards in front of the barrel, maybe 4' wide, with a high speed camera setup perpendicular to the shot. The goal would be to measure the shot column from front to back. My assumption is that the 1 1/8oz would be a longer column and would give you some forgiveness if you were in front of the target. I know it's splitting hairs, but I think it would be an interesting data point!
Very interesting idea! Have heard a few people talk about the shot column, also in relation to whether you get any kind of lateral spread with movement of the gun (of the two, I think front to back length like you mention would play more of a role). At a minimum, sounds like a good excuse for us to get an ultra high speed camera ;)
@@claylabusa I fully support the idea of a high speed camera!
th-cam.com/video/fac-03JF3GA/w-d-xo.html
Surviving Duck Season did this study on shot columns.
I would like to see the results of using #9 shot and a rifled choke tube. I tried this combination once and easily got a 25 at skeet using 12 guage.
Interesting, we will have to look at rifled choke tubes
Really good series! I shoot 7.5 & 8’s interchangeably. Pending on what I can find in 20 ga. My club can get anything but 20’s. Big box stores have 20 ga sometimes.
Thanks! Yeah, I tend to do the same. These days, it’s whatever you can get your hand on!
Id love you go just do a gear review of what each of these guys has and what they like about it.
Yeah, that’d be an interesting thing to do. Maybe once a year, have everybody do a recap of what they’re using and why. Thanks for the suggestion!
Another Great Video 💯Thank you 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Thank you for being a subscriber!
Great information
Thanks! Glad it helped!
the spin of the clay is what helps break the clay need spin
Thanks for opening with the “Clay Lab” aka #Biscuit_theYellowLab.
Biscuit was so proud of that stick! Definitely the real “Clay lab” haha
nice video.
Thanks!
Fewer pellets are required to break a spinning target than you experienced shooting a stationary target due to the stress of the centrifugal forces imparted on the target by the thrower.
So something you are missing here is a clay in motion colliding with pellets means that the impact forces are going to be greater. I use a 9 steel which is lighter for skeet means a great pattern density, but 7 1/2 Gamebore lead white Gold for sporting.
Thanks, certainly a valid point. That’s the main reason we actually took our data for comparison from shooting at moving targets in the second half of the video. Also had an interesting discussion with an aerospace engineer about it…we really ought to make a separate video on the physics of sporting clays…
@@claylabusa Oh I agree you did good work on the 2nd half for sure, I shoot English skeet, and has to be steel shot, the 9s at the distance for skeet are Perfect. Really enjoy your content and love the thoroughness of your work, I was just suggesting that the speed of which the clays were thrown will make a difference to the breaks were making, so rising teal stalling out vs a screaming crosser would make the difference here in visuals. Would love you to do a pattern density / clay breaking experiment with steel shot as we seem to be being forced in this direction - I have to because it's over marsh land but would be interesting to see what comes up and can't wait to see the physic video!
Yeah! Appreciate the feedback for sure. Always like new ideas, so keep them coming! Will have to check out the steel shot. Main thing you see it used for in the US at the moment is duck hunting, but wouldn’t be totally surprised to see it happen with clay shooting eventually.
Worth noting are the different international shot sizes, in particular the most common 28g = 1oz load used in 'English Sporting':
[7 UK = 7.5 US = 340 Pellets @ 2.4mm] | [7.5 UK = 8 US = 400 Pellets @ 2.3mm] | [8 UK = N/A US = 450 Pellets @ 2.2mm] | [9 UK = 9/9.5 US = 580 Pellets @ 2.0mm] -extract 'CPSA (Clay Pigeon Shooting Association) Clay Target Shooters Handbook'. Also, shot size [6 UK = 270 Pellets @ 2.6mm] is allowed in clay target shooting, especially long distance targets in Sporting...
Some of my best shooting is with #8 shot. So I agree.
The other interesting aspect of that is, when you feel like you shoot better with #8, that added confidence will help you too
Probably 95% of clay shooters here in Ireland use 7.5 shot, and absolutely everyone uses 1 ounce loads. I don't think you can even get trap shells in 1 1/8 ounce ( game shells, sure, up to 2 ounce, but that gets very pricey).
Been trying number 8's from Bornagi recently, and like them, but if you point it in the right place 3/4 ounce 7.5 kills perfectly well.
That's very interesting. Are there a wide variety of manufacturers selling shotgun shells in Ireland? One thing I have often noticed in the US is that shooters using semi-automatic shotguns often use heavier 1 1/8 oz loads, as they can handle the recoil more easily. I personally prefer 1 oz loads due to lower recoil.
@@claylabusa Yeah, probably 4 or 5 UK manufacturers sell here and the same number of Italian brands, the most famous of which are probably Fiocchi.
Couple of French brands too, Clever and Joker, but sometimes supply gets interrupted.
Most of these come into Ireland through distributors in the UK, and Brexit has messed up the supply lines a bit.
We get Winchester and Remington too, of course.
Clay shells have gone up in price this ladt 18 months, not much to be got for less than Euro 220 per thousand, standard clay shell is 1 oz of 7.5 shot.
1 oz. is 28 grams, we are gradually converting to the metric system.
Common for youngsters to use a 12 bore shotgun with either a 21 or 24 gram load, which translates to a 3/4 ounce load and a 7/8 ounce load, to keep recoil down.
Few use a 20 bore, they are a bit light and even with a 21 gram load can be a bit "punchy" on a beginner.
20 bore shells are about 30% more expensive too.
Here is a link to a gun shop near me.
wildhunter.ie/collections/shotgun-cartridges?page=2
God are you ever lucky to even have Fiocchi VIP shells.
Agreed! They’re excellent shells. We’re getting ready to film a dedicated episode covering Fiocchi’s full line of competition shells. They have a pretty broad range of different shells
@@claylabusa Use them for a season In 2019. Nothing to be had now.
I spent a lot of time at the pattern board. Was really surprised at how much the pattern changes from shot size, amount of shot and what barrel the chokes are in.
Rhino full in top barrel of a browning 725 pro sporting.
1 oz fiocchi dynamic 1200 fps #8. Was the size of a basket ball. No flyers, 50/50 split.
Moved to the bottom barrel and filled up the 30" cirle. 60/40
There is data to believe that the top barrel is .001 tigher than the bottom. I personally have not measured to verify that statement.
But the pattern board doesn't lie.
Trulock full in bottom had an open pattern with open spots well over the 30" circle. In Top barrel no openings and slightly bigger than 30" circle. Borh were 60/40
Same tests with 1 1/8 and everything changes.
Nice! At the end of the day it is likely the best practice for folks to shoot and pattern their own gun with their preferred ammunition just to know as every gun is not the same just as every shell doesn't perform the same.
I mostly use #8 sometimes 7.5 and light modified (3/8) for everything.
Pretty solid choices. Hard to go wrong with that combination
@@claylabusa UK shot size is slightly different to the US . Eg our #8 would be your 8 1/2 , US # 7 1/2 would be UK 6 1/2.
#8 1-1/8th for everything best for all.
Yeah, that’s a ton of pellets to be sending at a clay target, if you can handle the recoil! Hard to imagine a better load at close range. Do you tend to shoot an over-under or semi auto?
@@claylabusa Perazzi MX8 O/U is the choice 👌 👍 😄 w/Briley thin wall series one chokes.
I like the 7/5 because you get a higher velocity ! I like 1350 per second am I wrong ?
Have you done 7/8oz vs 1oz vs 1 1/8oz
Obviously more shot will be better but al lot better?
Maybe 1,200 vs 1,300fps as well (with same shot load)
Since watching this video I’ve switched to #8 1,200fps 7/8oz and to be honest, it’s a big recoil difference and I can’t tell any handicap in breaking clays.
Captured this comment to put into the list! Thank you for commenting. I'll take a look into finding a good way to demonstrate the differences in shot payload.
Great vid Thanx! But what about 8.5??? Lol I've been reloading with 8.5 and I'll be damned if I can tell any difference with my 8 shot
Thanks! We ran into somebody at a recent shoot who mentioned their #8.5 shot and how well it performed. I bet at the distances we generally shoot in sporting clays (50 yards or less), you wouldn’t see a tremendous difference between 8 and 8.5, and you would get that improved pattern density.
Now I know I need a vest with Smock on it. 👍
😆
New follower. Good stuff! Tell Jeremy he needs to get a Spyderco Smock to carry. Has his name on it, literally. lol
Haha will do but we carry bigger. Staccato actually. I'll let him know
And welcome to the squad, thanks for the support
@@claylabusaDWX here
Alrigh, guys, here's one that I'd love to see you tackle. Is there any performance difference between extended choke tubes and flush fit? Does that last inch matter(lol!), or is it simply weight and convenience? How about choke tube porting and recoil? Lots of videos looking at density and brand differences, but nothing scientific on these issues/questions.
As a sub gauge shooter 8’s and 8.5’s for the win. Pellet count rules the day.
What was the hardness of the shot in the shell? That makes a big difference.
Shoot continental league and in the rain I could see i was hitting the clays but not breaking. I was using Fioochi shooting dynamic.
Bought little Rhino and saw a improvement.
Both were 1 oz 1200 fps #8.according to the charts i could find the only difference was the hardness.
Many others have tested the hardness of these shells used so we didnt deam it necessary hut here are some of their results.The Fiocchi Target Shooting Dynamics pellets: The average crush for 10 pellets tested was 0.029" which placed it as "soft." The Fiocchi Exacta Target "Little Rino" pellets: The average crush for 10 pellets tested was 0.025 which is "medium." Hope that helps!
That is the same data I have found.A guy who posts to "trapshooter" does testing.
Said dynamic is 2% and that 7 1/2 measures #8.
I might to break some down and measure it myself.
Keep up the great work. I have suggested this video when people ask what I am shooting for sporting clays and continental.
Thank you! Will do! Report back your findings, would be interested to hear what you've found. Thanks. -JP
This test doesn't take into consideration that the target is spinning and the chances are increased when hit they'll break.
I learned this when I was at a state shoot and a ol' timer and I were having a tough time with targets. He said "its hard to break them whey aren't spinning" . Really ? I've learned the reason for this is that the rubber on the throw arms are hard and smooth from use. If you take a 30 grit sans paper the the rubber you'll eliminate them being thrown Vs. Spun. IMHO C U on the line!
Did each gun have the same choke size . Like ¾ bottom and full top ?
Sorry for the delay but yes the chokes were matching however now a days I bet with us being better shooters we get different results in the overall shootout.
I have a question I'd like to ask. I've never got a straight, proven answer. Why can't you shoot a 20ga along side the 12ga guys in a tournament. You have to join a sub guage event. I've shot both a lot. Other than weight. I can't tell the difference. 1 oz. Of 7.5 is the same from a 20 as a 12 at 1200fps.
That's interesting because I'm not sure who is saying you can't. A lot of people including youth shoot 20ga in main events at regionals, nationals and worlds. Also in sub gauge many shot 28ga for both 20 & 28ga events for basically the same reason you mentioned. 🤔
@claylabusa I just assumed you couldn't. Because they always have the main classified as 12ga. And all other guages as sub gauges. I didnt know if nsca had rules against it or not.
Where I'm from. It's 12ga main in the description and some other sub guage events.
@jimedray interesting. You shouldn't have any issues if at an NSCA event. Only rules in NSCA are about not being able to UP in gauge of course.
What lens color are your Pillas?
Jereme was using 52CHC lenses on his Pillas
All I know is when I’m hunting fast flying dove, an ounce of 7.5 seems to bring down more dove than an ounce of #8.
I just tested my 410 on sporting clays. I have a much better break rate with shot size 9 than with 7 1/2.
That’s probably because you are using tighter chokes in your 410. More pellets on target.
@@mallardcutter7209 fixed skeet chokes.
Just curious, what chokes were you using?
Hey! Thanks for the question. Here are the chokes we were using…
Field Test #1:
Jeremy -
Blaser F3 with factory .410 chokes (made by Briley)
Stainless steel
Skeet constriction (0.005)
Field Test #2 and #3:
Jeremy-
Same as above (in 12 gauge)
Scott-
Beretta A400 XTREME with Rhino Generation 1 competition choke
Titanium, ported
Skeet 2 constriction (0.007)
Jereme “JP”-
Krieghoff K-80 Pro Sporter with factory chokes
Titanium
Skeet constriction (0.005)
CJ:
Browning 725 Sporting with factory chokes
Stainless steel
Skeet constriction (0.005)
We were intentionally using open chokes to limit the number of pellets hitting the targets (to better show a difference between shot sizes). Be on the lookout for future episodes where we will be trying out chokes from different manufacturers! Aftermarket chokes are a big part of the clay shooting industry, so it’s a subject we’re all super curious about.
@@claylabusa like I said in a previous comment my history is in trap and won high school competitions with “full and imod” chokes and getting into sporting clays I shoot a “light modified and modified” I don’t have any issues with them but it the biggest choke in sporting clays seems to be “improved cyclinder” I just can’t bring myself to use one, but nice to see this video was done with skeet chokes. If you do a choke episode or two can you test extend vs. flush tubes
Yeah, I’m with you on the tighter chokes in actual competition. I personally shoot double light modified in my Blaser for the courses near me. A lot of people love the Krieghoff parcours with fixed IM and M choked barrels. Thanks for the idea on the flush vs extended chokes. Would be interesting to see if added length affects the pattern…
Would steel of the same shot size give a different result. ?
Steel shot is going to be lighter by a considerable margin, so don’t think our finding would apply. I’m guessing you could also find a “sweet spot” with steel, though.
What choke tubes/size are you using?
Here are the chokes we used in this episode. We intentionally used open chokes to limit the number of pellets hitting the target.
Field Test #1:
Jeremy -
Blaser F3 with factory .410 chokes (made by Briley)
Stainless steel
Skeet constriction (0.005)
Field Test #2 and #3:
Jeremy-
Same as above (in 12 gauge)
Scott-
Beretta A400 XTREME with Rhino Generation 1 competition choke
Titanium, ported
Skeet 2 constriction (0.007)
Jereme “JP”-
Krieghoff K-80 Pro Sporter with factory chokes
Titanium
Skeet constriction (0.005)
CJ:
Browning 725 Sporting with factory chokes
Stainless steel
Skeet constriction (0.005)
@@claylabusa thoroughly enjoyed the video. Great content and looking forward to more. Thanks for the reply and info!
The only #9’s that are worth a darn are TSS Turkey loads. They hit like a ton of bricks! 😊😊
Good test methodology, but you introduced a variable that basically skewed your results. It should have been a single shooter (a constant) with different shot sizes, as one of the shooters may shoot better thus skewing the outcome . Just my 2 cents worth.
Absolutely 💯 mostly for entertainment as many people has told me they came to all sorts of different conclusions. One of the first videos from back in the day. May redo some of these tests at some point
Any chance to ask a question about shot size and patterns?
Of course! Hopefully we can answer it, haha. We’re looking at doing a choke video in the future, too
@@claylabusa dumb question. Can 7.5s pattern better than 8s? Reason I'm asking, I ended up buying a case of 7.5s and I shot really well with it. Found 8s and I thought I'd really knock them dead and I shot so terrible. Halfway through the course I switch back to 7.5s and started shooting well again. I'm talking my text so forgive me. I know with my hunting chokes I would always pattern my ammo to see what shot best
This video has been really making me think...
So, it seems to me...
If you hit the target straight on, either #7.5 or #8 will break everything the same.
So, it's the near miss that makes the difference...
If you only get 5 pellets of #7.5 on a clay that equates to 6.45 ft-lb of kinetic energy into that target. WIth a denser pattern of #8 you may be likely to put 6 pellets with that same shot placement which would be delivering 6.54 ft-lbs of KE. That's really close with a slight edge to the smaller #8 balls. To me, this reveals the "sweet spot" for shooting sporting where the distances and types of clays can vary a lot. I'm shooting #8 from now on, unless I can save at least $5 on a case of 250 #7.5. 🙂
Very interesting. I love to see how people interpret the information as I've had others state that this is actually why they only shoot #7.5s haha all and all, confidence in whatever load you shoot is what matters. If you think it'll break it then you'll be more confident in your shoot process and execute without doubt IMHO -JP
Surely the choke size has an impact on the results?
It would affect things, so we standardized it amongst all three shooters. Might have been slight variations from one manufacturer to another, but should stay fairly consistent. Now…should you shoot a tighter choke when using 7.5 vs 8 to keep the density the same? That would be an interesting question to look at some day
The scientific question is how much force is required to crack a clay pigeon at various locations on the target. Is the kinetic energy in a single #7 1/2, #8, #8 1/2 or #9 capable of breaking the target at normal contact range. If not, how many pellets of each size is required? Being capable of launch a specific number of pellets at a fixed speed into the target, edge on, as most targets are encountered would be best. Additionally, the centrifugal force of the spinning target needs to be included in the experiment as the spinning clay is trying to break apart but is held together by the shear strength of the material. Hitting targets earlier rather than later in flight produces higher percentage of breaks not just because of pattern density but also because the spin rate is higher earlier in flight imparting greater centrifugal force on the target. Good stuff, but would love to see you go deeper while better controlling variables.
maybe stupid question but how much do pilla sunglasses cost in the USA ?
Best place to see updated prices on Pillas is through ClayTargetVision.com. If you’re looking at placing an order, highly recommend talking to them over the phone to get their input on lens selection OR catch up with them at a large event and try out the lenses yourself
I assume that 410 Blaser is not Jeremy's gun. Way too long for him and does not fit his shoulder.
It is and he's getting a Greenwood stock to fix all that!
If you do the math over a 100 shells #8 has 6700 more pellets than #7.5 that's a big difference.
The test would have made more sense if it was thrown from a machine! Spinning targets are the true test!
Test 1 was stationary targets. Test 2 later in the video was moving targets.
Hey, thanks for the feedback! Yeah, I definitely agree that spinning / moving targets are a better, more representative test. For Part 1, there wasn’t a great way to consistently see the pellets hit the target if it was moving, so we started with them stationary. I actually had a long and interesting conversation about that very subject with my brother-in-law, who is an aerospace engineer. I was thinking that centrifugal force and drag from the targets starting to break would pull the targets apart more easily, but he felt that those forces are actually pretty negligible with relatively slow rotational velocity or the clays and slow speeds. His main critique was the angle at which we were hitting the targets (straight on, right at the dome). For the long range test, we’re going to try to rig them from some fishing line or something. The cardboard may have also absorbed some of the force. Anyway, thanks again for the feedback! Always looking for ways to tweak our “experiments” to make them better the next time :)
My experience shows that my gun patterns 7 1/2 better and certain manufacturers made up to 20 percent better patterns. Test your gun/chokes/shells, it can surprise you.
Have heard similar things, especially in regards to certain shells patterning well in certain guns. Once the ammunition shortage in the US eases up, I’ll have to experiment with that in my gun. We’re also looking at doing a video covering shot speed
Why on earth was i rooting for 8shot?
Hard to go wrong with #8!
I tend towards common sense on shot size. On the skeet field, 9 or 8. Longer ranges, 71/2. This is Not rocket science.
this study is not very legitt do to the fact that the target is not spinning.
Yeah, can see your point. It’s actually something we considered both before and after the test, but ran into two issues:
1) It would be difficult to rig a target to be spinning and stationary. Without it being still, can’t get a camera close enough to see number of hits.
2) ran it by my brother-in-law who is an aerospace engineer and he said that both the movement of the target through the air and the centrifugal force are so negligible compared to the kinetic energy of the shot as to make no real difference. Essentially, not spinning fast enough for a small structural defect (like a single pellet striking it) to make a target break differently. More on that in a future video!
Either way, thanks for the feedback!