TL;DW -corporations are bad -NDAs are bad -corporate interference in modding directions are bad -lack of community input is bad -lack of demo compatibility is bad -putting new previously freely released asset types behind a paywall is bad -taking advantage of unpaid labor is bad -copyright and intellectual property are certainly not good -hierarchies are bad -the actual expansion is probably good
Totally agree. We may not legally own the IP but we certainly morally own it. A simple metric for me is compare the number of levels made by the IP 'owners' and the number of levels made by the community. The soothsayers telling the cynics that we've nothing to worry about regarding a big-dick-corporation swinging into the chat asserting its ownership status while getting all those 'community' members involved to sign NDA's after shutting down Romero of all people just so that *they* can give the *free* stuff away is at best naive in the extreme. Sorry about the rant but I'm really bothered by all this. Thank you for sharing this video. :)
I can't wait for copyright and IP's to end as a legal concept so corporations can steal from smaller developers and peoples creations can be stripped from them
6:21 See, this is the distinction a lot of people don't understand. It's not the actual community members who worked on this stuff I'm particularly worried about.. I know they genuinely love Doom/modding/"getting Doom to the people" etc. It's the new levels of corporate involvement. I know these Doomers don't want to see things get restricted, I'm just worried about deep corporate involvement, the eyes of lawyers being on our stuff, etc.. Though I have to say, on the bullet list of good points, I think "-much easier/crossplatform multiplayer" is a really legitimate good thing, especially for old DM farts like me who remember when it was more popular, this has been a genuinely great thing.. But I'm slightly worried about the future. Cautiously hopeful it WON'T get bad. To be dead honest I already share a lot of "illegal" Doom assets in a few places because... I mean, come on. It's ancient data by now. The fact that we can't post those beta assets freely anymore sticks in my craw so deep, I would just have to stick my head in the sand to pretend that isn't potential writing on the wall. The uploader... You know how shit I think it is. Easy access to wads = good, but in this form... It's a barf bag with occasional gold in it, so to speak. Really just not happy with how that went/is going down either.
Never was much of a multiplayer gamer myself, but good shout, im sure that the wider playerbase for DM is a cool time! when I made this video I wasn't really aware of what was going on with you getting posts pulled, but yeah this idea of bethesda trying to claim UNUSED ASSETS as copyrighted material and presumably putting their foot down on romero's batches from way back is totally fucked and something that makes me want to make a follow up to this video since this video has reached outside my intended audience lmao. The uploader, too, is such a nightmare lmao, but i havent even looked at it myself. Would you be willing to chat about this on discord or something? I'd love to pick your brain about a few other things on the matter
@@AndreaPlaysDoom "bethesda trying to claim UNUSED ASSETS as copyrighted material" I'm pretty sure that assets do not become not copyrighted because they're unused. id Software owns those assets whether used or not.
@@EuryBartleby why would anyone be mad at TNT? Why would it ever be the case that people who spend thousands of hours creating content should just do it for free?
@@everennui1 Because they said it would be free. Mind you, I don't care, they got an offer of payment and took it, but that's why people were pissy back in the day.
I'm going to point out that the original Doom itself was never Open Source, only the engine that it ran on was. That is the reason the Original games have been available to purchase for as long as they have.
This video really didn’t offer any solid insight aside from “I don’t believe in copyrights and I hate Bethesda.” While that’s fair, nothing about it means that the Doom modding community will suddenly end because of a new official port’s release. Nothing is stopping people from continuing to do great work for Boom, ZDoom, Odamex, ZDaemon, etc. As far as modding official artwork (textures and sprites), that was always technically “illegal,” but there was never truly a time when id Software or Bethesda came down on people for it. As long as no one charged money for whole asset rips, I believe it was largely tolerated for over 3 decades. If Microsoft/bethesda suddenly goes after people for this now, then your video would have an actual point (but they haven’t). In any case, I’m sure some people aren’t happy that the new release isn’t open source. However, that still doesn’t change any of the other work people have done or will continue to do from (and with) the original source release. You don’t like the idea of “intellectual property”? A good amount of artists/creative professionals may disagree with you.
Curiosity question as I have not tried it: are all the wad files (besides the brand new episode, my guess) the original sets that can be used with GZDOOM or do they have to use the new engine?
I do agree with you as far as a corporation gaining ownership over an old game, and trying to take over the community with micro transactions and leveraging the engine to get more money. We saw Blizzard do that with their poorly managed Warcraft 3 remaster, forcing people to waive any rights to any mod (specifically new game types) made for their game. However, I disagree a bit as far as intellectual property. I don't like big businesses owning ideas and technology patents, but someone should get credit for their ideas and effort, and a company (like id Software) deserves credit for making the game*. Also, id Software (I think specifically John Carmack) made the Doom ENGINE (idtech 1) Open Source, not the game itself. You can use the engine anyway you want, even build and sell new games with it freely. However, id Software still owns the rights to Doom; so you can make mods for it, you can make fan art, but you can't make a commercial product featuring the monsters, scenarios, weapons, characters in the game. Even more, idtech 1 didn't become Open Source until years after the game came out; someone from the Open Source community showed Carmack a Linux port of Doom, which impressed him. He then started releasing Linux ports of id games and then Open Sourcing them years later, until Rage for some reason. Then he just turned his back on Linux and the Open Source community for some reason. *Yes, nobody from the old days of id Software still works there, not even Carmack, but the rights to the property belong to the company, not any individual who worked on it. And it is a sticking point for me that not only is id Software a shell of its former self, but now owned by Microsoft.
credit and property are different things. I have no issue with the original id team making money from their game, but i DO have an issue with people who had nothing to do with Doom making money from it because they were already rich enough to buy the IP from someone else. And yea, I know about the open source of the engine and not the game, just a little bit of mispeak / i assume most people know what im referring to anyway. Rage was the last game id software made, so that's why it was the last game to have source code released openly. Thanks for the comment and discussion! Always appreciate hearing perspectives.
@@AndreaPlaysDoom the last engine to be open-sourced was the Doom 3 engine, which is id tech 4. id tech 5 that runs Rage was never released, and now we're at id tehc 7.
Really appreciate you bringing this topic up and discussing it. This is obviously the first step in an attempt by a corporation with a history of ruining modding scenes to try to monetize the Doom modding scene and line their pockets from a game which I paid full price for in 1994 and should NEVER have to purchase again. Screw Bethesda.
I hadn't really thought that hard about this since Bethesda's last attempt to update the game with their Unity port kinda flopped. I think that the backlash from the modding and speedrunning communities would be significant. Thanks for the anxiety! ;)
Thanks for making this video, Andrea. I had no idea that this new issue of Doom has such potential ramifications. It's such a shame: I haven't played any other video games beyond Doom wads for the past 3 years and I'm seriously disappointed that this state of affairs could come to an end, and so suddenly.
jeez i didnt even know about the spyro rom hacking community. That's fuckin sad. If doom died like that, it would be devistating. I really don't mind paying for a game that I think will be enjoyable, but having to shell out a premium for a 20-30 year old game doesnt sit right with me at all. Seeing anything go from open source to closed source just sucks ass. That's a one way ticket for making a modding community go from inclusive to exclusive. While I'm curious to try the new expansion/port, I'd rather pirate it.
@dansmoothback9644 a premium? It's $9 for an entirely new game. And you get Doom and Doom 2 for free with it. I want to see modders make money from their hard work.
Great video! I don't keep up with DoomWorld other than posting speedruns so this is good to know. Also, the WAD and map level is a good touch when watching the Doom playthrough in the background.
This is why for the past 4-5 years I'm archiving everything gzdoom and also freedoom and crispy doom on offline media. It's just around 5-7gigs but still
I’ll just say it: fuck Bethesda. Whatever good will I had for the company was lost when I found out how bad they screwed over Mick Gordon, and the fact I didn’t enjoy where Doom Eternal is taking the series. Good thing I randomly came across my old copy of the Doom trilogy on disc. They won’t be getting any more of my support or respect after all this crap
@@zero_baja8015 It's like they're trying to pander to the unironic Caesar (FO:NV) simping, Paradox game-playing, Sabaton-listening, Deus Vult-screaming, RETVRN immature assholes.
@@UnrealPersonnot really, where’s the pandering? Is the fact that those people like it an indication that it HAS to be tailor made for them? That’s not necessarily true
@@zero_baja8015 ugh i loath people like you because you seem like the annoying grandparent type to say "back in MY day" over everything because it's not what you grew up with
i'm not a big modding guy but I can 100% acknowledge the implications this has. I do think dismissing the new id guys is a bit shitty tho, I understand being frustrated that they don't have that "tech freedom" mindset that they used to, but I'm sure a lot of people in the team really do care for the source material. NuDoom titles wouldn't have been so successful otherwise
@@AndreaPlaysDoom yeah, I checked onto my soon to be alive doomworld account and I have an entire paragraph to read, I'm a linux nerd trying to find a way to make my dosbox make midi noises, I need to read a lot of paragraphs already
The way that I see it, the new Doom port is a good thing (just on a surface level standpoint), because a regular end-user can download the game from Steam and not have to download and configure a separate third-party sourceport because the Steam version for the longest time only had the DOS version and then the extremely mediocre Unity port that lacked even basic PC features that were in the sourceports. Setting aside the lack of vertical aim, not having the PSX version as an extra (Like how Quake 2 had the N64 version), and GZDoom mod support, this is a really solid entry point for people wanting a simple solution to play the game. I suppose ID24 being developed behind closed doors was a questionable decision, but under the context that they shadow dropped this update out of nowhere (Because it probably would've raised suspicions otherwise), and the specifications were released, It's probably only a matter of time until the big sourceports implement these features. Now if Bethesda decided to do another update at some point and then decide not to release the specifications, it would probably be a big concern as modders would likely need to reverse engineer to figure out. Breaking demo support (Which likely includes speedruns) is definitely a big cause for concern though.
we should definetly exercise extreme caution regarding Bethesda and iD... we do still have freedoom though and we have the freedoom team working on a free version of the stuff required for iD24
You had me at 3:50 when you said you don't believe in IP. If more people not only shared that sentiment but understood the ramifications, communities could get so much done without having to look over their shoulders constantly.
You haven't said anything about ID24 and its possible impact. I'll read the Doomworld comments, though, to find out how much there are genuine concerns, and how much is just self-centered crazy people intoxicated with the digital statuses they've obtained after spending more time than they should on an Internet forum.
I believe what the issue is is with taking modders who have perhaps worked on stuff with GZDOOM and other ports is that Bethesda can easily "give" them code to put into the ports thus giving Bethesda a backdoor link to ownership as they could prove the code was from them. Also them trying to set a standard when their own games are buggy messes of shite is just hilarious.
Here's the thing. I don't think Bethesda would even have a fighting chance to go after the mountains upon mountains of existing Doom content over copyright nonsense. They'd just be fighting the hydra at that point. They strike down a mod with copyrighted material, 10 more will take its place. The good thing is that we now have a free equivalent for the new id24 assets in the works: FD24, an extension of FreeDoom. So that alone already covers the aspect of paywalled materials. If that isn't enough, I suggest chartering a boat from a friend with one leg. Overall, I feel that this video is rather alarmist, all things considered. I think ultimately Bethesda and Zenimax don't really care about this remaster enough to be anal about the custom content, as it's not really going to turn them enough of a profit. We can talk all we want about how much id isn't what it used to be (this card feels overplayed tbh), but I'm like 90% sure this "new id" is who got Nightdive and Machine Games together and made this remaster happen, not Bethesda, so you have to give them credit in that regard. You're someone I've always considered to be rather intelligent based on what I've seen of you on Doomworld, so I'm curious what your thoughts are now given that the hype has died down.
when it comes to corporations, im always pretty alarmist because I come from the school of thought that power is a zero sum game, and corporations should be as close to 0% as possible. since this video was made (which was definitely in the middle of the "hype" lol) my takes are pretty similar. I generally just want to instill a sense of ownership in the community of the games that they love, because no one has the right to take it away from us (yknow, morally), and i've been in communities that had the "it won't happen to us" phase and it sucks to be there. I dont think they'll go scorched earth, but I also truly believe everything is fine as it is, and corporate involvement is never what it seems, but im a fairly paranoid person when corporations are involved in anything, generally, and I wear that bias on my sleeve. As far as the spec itself, it doesnt seem useful at all to me. It looks like a mucky hybrid of zdoom and mbf that i dont see the purpose in. the new features are nothing zdoom cant do, and stuff I dont really care to do in mbf. I've worked extensively in both zdoom family stuff and mbf/boom/doom stuff, and i truly just dont understand what features or tech id24 brings to the table and i think its only riding the high of the "this is OFFICIAL" stamp on that regard. the id24 wad is only cool for the assets it has, so fd24 seems pointless to me personally, other than people with a paycheck just offloading labor to people without one. The assets should have been free, like romero had posted with others, and the whole "needing a different wad to load a complevel" thing is just weird, but im not a port dev so I dont really care about it more than that. As far as community goes, doomworld banning kraflab was a gigantic mistake and i'd be shocked to hell if dsda-doom implemented anything from id24 as a result, but more importantly, it continues a trend I've seen on doomworld all my life of people having fights, never working it out, and then bumping heads X years later in much worse ways. to me, doom is a critical piece of games history, and it may very well be the most important piece of game modding history of all time, and so I treat a lot of the goings-on with that lens in mind, and I do not like the cliquey trend of groups vs groups ("speedrunners vs mappers", "zdoom vs dsda-doom", "doomworld vs doomerboards", etc.) because to me it just spells doom (hehehe) for the future if microsdidmax one day decides they do wanna do some shit. In other words, if this was a test balloon, we have failed that test completely as a community and I think doomworld moderators wanting to brush that whole aspect under the rug will have lasting impacts on the longevity of dsda-doom and speedrunners, which is just horrible to witness as someone who is invested in each aspect of the scene. Thanks for the kind words, if you have any more questions let me know!
I don't know, I wouldn't give Bethesda even the tiniest sliver of the benefit of the doubt when it comes to this stuff. They could absolutely go after any and all mods that uses commercially derived assets if they so wanted to. Just to name a few mods off the top of my head, that includes: - Any Doom wad that has IWAD textures included. - Doom Sprite Fixing Project - Doom Delta - Smooth Doom - Brutal Doom and its derivatives - The plethora of Doom 64 conversion mods - The plethora of PSX Doom conversion mods And more, I think you get the picture. There is absolutely valid reason to be cautious.
@@terraformer9x223 I think if they thought they had anything worthwhile to gain from going after those mods, they would've done it years ago, I'm sure of it. Bethesda's definitely a shitty company, but they're not as predatory as Nintendo is about these things.
@@theopenrift No, they aren't. But it's also still not a reason to be cautious about the possibility given how Legacy of Rust assets are not free to use in other mods and it really brings up the question again of whether the commercially derivative stuff found in other Doom wads are okay. Legacy of Rust should've been released as a free wad as to circumvent a lot of the headache, the circumstances surrounding it and id24 have definitely muddied the waters badly and it doesn't look good for Doom's modding future unless everyone abandons id24 before it even sets sail and leave it as a Doom + Doom 2 thing only.
@terraformer9x223 I agree, they should've taken that route with LoR, but I don't think anyone could've convinced the biz folks of any studio involved to do that, so this is what we got. That being said, Woof is already adopting ID24s stuff and it's been coming along pretty well. I think the whole Kraflab drama from the ID24 thread blew some stuff out of proportion, based on what I've heard.
No offence man but a significant portion of this video comes across as extremely rambly, and it seems like; judging by many of the comments here that I wasn't the only one to notice. There's a lot of tangents messily put together and the only concrete information I feel like I got out of it regarding your actual concerns is when you spoke of what happened to the Spyro community. Which is a completely valid point but it doesn't come until the latter half/last-third of the video. I still don't even know what id24 is or what it's supposed to do.
@@clarenceoveur9497 its not a conspiracy. you can't play skyrim together or good fallout 4 version thanks to updating new crap versions of bethesda games.
Hi. Thanks for the video. Your perspective on IP laws was interesting although it might put a lot of people off. The Spyro takedowns are sad but unfortunately not uncommon these days. Having read most of the DW thread and watched your video of course, I'm not sure how "guilty" id24 is in this. If id24 didn't exist, the KEX port still would. You don't mention this explicitly, but I guess without id24 the mod browser would've been neutered due to lack of MBF21 compatibility, so that does implicate id24 somewhat. Except I'm not really sure if they would've given up on MBF21 compatibility without Goober. The fact that they licensed Goober's code to be able to do this tells me they've already had their eyes on doom mods for a while. So your concerns would be equally valid without id24 in my opinion. Regarding the issue at large, I understand both sides. On one hand, it seems preposterous now to say "corporate might take down all doom mods". That would be the single biggest takedown of all time and would go against decades of precedence. On the other, they COULD do it, so the further they stay away from us the better. Although in my personal opinion, the odds of them doing this haven't really changed since the release of KEX/id24. It's still basically zero. Although I understand why you would think otherwise. The only way to ensure we are scott-free would be for them to change the licensing on Doom assets, making them free & letting us modify and distribute them as we wish (with commercial boundaries). That could be a big ask and is highly unlikely, but it's the only way to give us reassurance. Finally I'd like to give some feedback on the video if you don't mind. I think it could be worth your while to write scripts for videos like this. Or at least a basic outline to follow. It could help keeping your language concise and brief, while making sure you go over everything you want to. Some of the things you say in your pinned tl;dw comment aren't even mentioned in the video itself if I'm not mistaken.
hi! thanks for the feedback. i dont write scripts for my videos because it's not really my style, and this video reached far outside my intended audience, and since i made it there's been a lot more developments. I agree with most of what you said here!
my main issue is that the new episode is effectively locked to the new official source port, making it a lot like the quake re-releases where the new content breaks compatibility with the decades-old community standards for no apparent (good) reason.
That’s not true. You can run Legacy of Rust with the gzDOOM source port. The Quake episode Dimension of the Machine is playable with the vkQuake source port.
the new episodes and levels I'm quake 1 and 2 are great besides they were free upgrades if you owned the original on steam. and they do take advantage of the updated engine. going around a big and detailed map and gunning down a room of 20 to 30 strogg is a lot of fun
@@uriel666marco the new intermission screen is broken, and according to the ID24 specs theres likely more thats broken that i havent run into. also, on release, no community source port could play dimension of the machine. it took months to get it working.
@@shade221 so? I am sure that will be fixed too in the future. Even The Force Engine required an update to run the new Dark Forces Remastered assets. I know, what a shame that a company want money for something they created. It’s still their property. They have all the right to do whatever they want with it.
For the record, from what I've seen, id24 isn't closed source, it wasn't difficult at all for me to find a whole bunch of documentation on it, and it wasn't hidden or anything, it was meant to be publicly viewable. Whether that accounts for everything I don't know, but at least for version 0.9.1, which is what's currently in the commercial port, it's not hard to find the specs for. And um... y'know if you can understand any of it, even better. The real issue for me is also why I'm not worried: it's obsolete nonsense. For people familiar with Doom and it's ports and history and all of that already, this doesn't really matter, it is what it is. But the thing is, Bethesda isn't making money off of this from any of those people. People who understand that the new format is pre-obsolete either already bought the game on one of the digital storefronts where it's a free update (btw can I just say people need to stfu with calling this commercial product "free?" like learn what words mean? holy shit?), or have already paid their dues and have no interest in paying for a copy of a game they already own with extra bonus always online steam DRM. This port is going to make money because people are going to pay for it now who: 1. Didn't have a copy of Doom already. 2. Are too lazy or dumb to pirate it. 3. Saw something in the bullet points on the back of the box that convinced them to do so. The only market that really ticks all those boxes are console buyers who saw that it has mod compatibility. But the problem is... it doesn't. It only goes up to, like... Boom... and some stuff after that. This demographic with a passing interest in Doom paying for it specifically because it says it has mod compatibility is going to think this means My House and Brutal Doom. Then they're going to download My House in the port, see that it doesn't work, upload their own version because they wouldn't understand or assume that a commercial product released in the year of our glorp 2024 wouldn't support the only Doom mod they've heard of, find that doesn't work, and so on and so forth. The end result of that process is the roughly 10 or so different uploads of My House on the mod browser (along with a bunch of other stuff that doesn't work, it's a whole thing), and a bunch of people searching up what the problem is and finding out pretty quickly that for 0$ they can have all of that and more. So Bethesda's choices here are kinda just introducing this demographic of rubes to the wider Doom modding community and now they don't have to wait for the port to be finished. (Oh yeah the port is literally unfinished, it was forced out the door in time for Quake Con, it's still in active development.) (Also it's a commercial product released for real actual money in the year of our flumpf 2024 that still uses fffffucking DEHACKED like it's god damned 1995. Not a joke.) I'm not saying your concerns aren't legitimate or don't need voicing or anything like that, I agree with you, it's creepy as hell. It's just... well... I've seen it before. Not with Spyro, but with Dungeons & Dragons. Bottom line is, if you give tools to a demographic of people and let them make it their own for multiple decades, then later come back and call that "undermonetized" and try to get greasy with it... well you know. If you want to come for the king you need to come out swinging, and this ain't it. So it's not that I'm not concerned, I just don't perceive this as a legitimate threat.
I mean, let's look at some of the arguments. "This was made behind closed doors." Oh, and you've been involved in the making of the other standards have you? No? Alright, that argument's trashed. Next. "Id software isn't the REAL Id software." And neither are the people making source ports or other standards. So that's another argument for the trash bin. You don't like HOW id24 was made. Doesn't matter. What does ID24 DO? It allows more flexibility, letting you add weapons and monsters instead of replacing them. "Oh yea, well this source port already can do that." With its own proprietary system that falls under the same issues you already complain about for ID24. And this new standard is open so it can be used for other ports as well. Crispy could add it, DSDA could add it, Boom, Zdoom, whatever port you want could add it. In fact, it's encouraged to. This controversy will die, the sooner the better, and people will adopt the format to give mod makers MORE options to do more things, as it should be.
@@AndreaPlaysDoom Still no actual arguments about the content of ID24, just emotional prattling about things you don't like. *Condescendingly pats you on the head.* You tried. You failed miserably, but you tried.
Where does the open source code release play into this? The Spyro situation is different in that the community there relied on reverse engineering? I'd be interested to know the significance of Carmack's decision to make idTech 1 open source, even if -Bethesda- -Zenimax- Microsoft owns the DOOM IP. I'm under the assumption that this is the reason why the powers that be are more inclined to lean into the modding community for brand recognition, rather than doing a Nintendo. As for 'Doom Four' and 'Doom Five', they were a well needed shake up to the genre as far as the modern day is concerned. Their influence has been a net positive IMO, regardless of what individuals may think of the games themselves. I played Quake 3 for a decade straight. I seem to find myself doing the same for Doom Eternal. Speaking of which, the dev tools for Eternal is a pretty cool gesture in an age where releasing a major title's source code is extremely uncommon (AFAIK at least). Perhaps I'm just naive and love corporations, though. Edit: None of this is to downplay your concerns about the state of the classic Doom community as a whole. My question about the significance of the open source code is sincere. I do think there's something to be said about pushing the brand. That is how I view the Unity port and now the KEX port (which many speculate exists because of Unity's recent PR blunders). It's less about making hard cash and more about keeping the brand's extended content relevant to a significantly broader audience - which will of course go a long way to sell -Doom 6- Doom: The Dark Ages. I would like to think that it'd be in the publisher's best interest to keep the doomworld community continuously engaged in it's own bubble for more decades to come, especially now they're able to directly benefit from it.
doom being open source is the best possible thing imaginable, and the only way it could be undone is if they tried to do take downs on mod websites, which I doubt will happen any time in the near future, but the *possibility* of it is the real concern. Pushing the brand is great, I just wish it was done in a way that respected the people who kept the brand alive during the so-called "dark age" of doom's popularity. but all of that can change with one decision from a CEO or a lawyer.
@@AndreaPlaysDoom How would you have had them push the brand in a way that respects the modding community? What would you have done differently to give millions of console players access to the countless MegaWADS, revered by so many and for so long? It stands to reason that an official release would be required to conform to the policies of _all_ major gaming platforms, so I'd be curious to know what ought to have been done differently as far as transparency is concerned? Is there a blackbox system in place in development of this new port? Can't the seasoned Doomworld users look beneath the hood now it's released? I'm also curious about the legalities concerning any attempt to mass take down 25+ years worth of open source derivative works and how feasible it would even be? If you know anything I don't, I'd love to hear it.
I'm completely fine with the system that had 2 weeks ago, of having a curated list of wads that functioned perfectly and were easy to find. My only issue with that system was the long delay between releases. This new system is full of unmoderated wads that don't work or are full of bugs, all information has been stripped (like txt info, copyright stuff from mod authors and all that) My bias is clear, though, I hate modern game companies and don't respect their standards or policies in any way, and so as a result, I see this as a "dumbing down" that I'm wary of the trajectory of. For the takedown concern, there's plenty of material in doom wads that are in a "legal gray area". Such as taking a zombieman sprite, editing them to have a tshirt on, and putting it in your wad. Technically thats illegal to some degree, and its just dependent on whether or not lawyers at zeni/micro/beth/id want to go ham on it. To me, this seems like step 1 in the process of importing things to their ecosystem. once on that ecosystem, there's less pressure to resist taking down the "unofficial" mirrors. Conspiratorial thinking, perhaps, but we do live in an era of corporate malfeasance.
@@AndreaPlaysDoom My bias lies in the fact that I quit PC gaming in 2007 (i had to hang up the keyboard and mouse for medical reasons, so I'm basicallya PC gamer 'trapped' in the console space) and so I wholly rely on whatever I can get officially in the console space. The only thing I lamented about the unity port was a lack of 120Hz support, as fhe input lag was atrocious on console. I, too, was happy with the mod support as it was. Thanks to the new port, the expansion of compatibility has significantly increased. Been able to finally attempt to -suffer- play through Sunder on an Xbox is amazing. That said, I agree. The free form, creditless cesspool of a mod browser is atrocious and seeing Nightdive's Edward justify it all with a barebones reporting system on doomworld was pretty hilarious. It'll almost certainly have to fundamentally change. Yeah, I get the zombieman thing. Even as a cynical person, I seriously doubt your concerns will come to reality. I don't know, though. I appreciate your measured responses, thank you. You've got some great gameplays. There's a magic 'intuition' of sorts from hardcore doomers and it's something I appreciate now more than ever after getting wrecked in Eviternity, Scythe and Ancient Aliens etc. I'm pretty decent at games but when it comes to classic Doom, I'm still sweating it out pistol starting in Plutonia. Thanks for reading my essays 👍
well, you can certainly play doom wads with a controller on PC, so don't worry about that too much! DSDA-Doom has full controller support last time I checked. Yeah, I looked at the unity port and it sucked ass, but the system around it (wad uploader wise) was far superior to the current IMO. Thanks for the kind words! I try my best :)
I don't think a cease and desist is going to happen because of how large the modding community actually is and the potential backlash from said community.
With how local mods are automatically deleted when being added into the mods folder, this port is probably going to get even more closed off and proprietary. Hope they don't try to launch cease and desists against other, objectively better ports
Honestly, I'm perfectly okay with id-Bethesda doing what Valve has already been doing for 3 decades, poaching modders. Is it annoying for the scene? Yeah, means that mod projects will get stalled cus the devs are hired up. But hey, if the devs are getting paid money to do official corporate work, I can't be too mad. However, what is I am fully against is IF id-Bethesda intends to FORCE their Port as the ONLY modding standard in the future. Cus what this would mean is, they would have incentive to kill the entire DOOM modding history before our very eyes. Deleting doom world archives, all doom related forums shut down, and all other source ports shut down. No more Mods, no more WADs, all gone like tears in the rain. Some would see this doomsday scenario as 'impossible'.... but it's already how Nintendo operates. Shutting down romhacks left and right. id-Bethesda could fully abuse the DMCA to kill Doom forever cus they want only 'Official Modding' to make OG Doom 'financially lucrative'........ it's pure evil, but corpos don't care about culture, history, or morality. The ONLY saving grace here is that Bethesda developers are trying to unionize. Not sure if this extends to id though, cus despite it being owned by Bethesda (Microsoft now?) it is technically a separate developer entity.
Yeah, i have no issue at all about modders getting brought into the scene, but I think a lot of people have rose colored glasses about what being in the game dev industry really is about in the current day and age. Can only hope they don't nuke us at this point, but the fallout show was super successful, so they might be more likely to press the big red button ;)
Absolutely agree, you should never trust that a company won't abuse copyright law to destroy something just because it's good. if it wasn't good there'd be no reason to destroy it!
@@AndreaPlaysDoom Even if Bethesda makes the most boring games imaginable, I do genuinely think if the Bethesda devs can secure unionizing they'll be down to protect DOOM modding. Honestly, the worst case scenario here is if Microsoft does liquidate id Software and then Epic games buys up the DOOM IP or some shit. (Epic liquidated Unreal games despite naming their engine off Unreal & Fortnite being entirely developed by the Unreal Tournament developers)
Well, at least when it comes to source code, they cannot possibly do anything. GPL is a very, very strong license and people who make things for free for communities should settle for nothing less. (which unfortunately they often do...)
I just grabbed my Doom2.wad from the Doom1+2 re(re)release Steam folder to play GZdoom Ray Traced Doom 2. It was a legit concern I had when I had to hunt for the .wad though.. Guess it's not so bad after all! :P Maybe now is finally the time for me to make some bloody maps.. I remember installing a map builder on my Windows 3.1 486 back in the day but I was too young to figure it out :P
obligatory: "only 1 view after 34 seconds, max fell off". seriously thanks for the breakdown/explanation and don't worry about being too spicy, if you click on someone's youtube channel you should expect to hear their opinions. if i dont agree i can post my own video. i was about to nitpick and say "well (glasses push) actually doom was not released as open source, it wasn't until years later..." and then i realized that even 1997, when carmack made his github post, is almost thirty years ago, then i died instantly and turned to dust. rip to me
I commend you for casting a net yourself as well. Erm akshully not even git existed at the time, and please for the love of anything that's holy, don't equate Free software with Github/Micro$oft even in a joke!
I think 128gb is enough if you cherry pick the great ones. Heck i only have around 7gb filled by the best ones, now I'm just want to fill in Community Chest series. Also Obsidian helps in case no internet
I personally remain excited for ID24 but I do have a slight anxiety now that I've seen this. Though I'm not exactly as Socialist as I've observed you to be (I say that respectfully, we just have different views .w.), I do agree that this does have somewhat of an insidious implication. I do think the people at Id Software themselves still care enough about Doom to not do too much shit about this though, and that Bethesda might be a little careful about fucking with Doom, especially given how big the modding community is (and how much bigger it has gotten with the success of NuDoom and how GZDoom has paved the way for lots more interesting modding as well as much higher effort total conversions), though you may argue that's just wishful thinking. I just hope that ID24 does get at least a lot better leniency and availability for modders. I think I remember recalling that the group behind Freedoom planned on making their own version of ID24's resources once things get finalized with that standard so that is one thing to look out for. Also, a correction: Doom + Doom II is only 10 dollars. In fact, it would have costed more to get the first two games and Final Doom on steam before the big merge, given that (if I remember correctly) Final Doom was also around 5 bucks before all of the IWADs got merged. Though its debatable if that's a good price for those who already owned the original games and wanted to play LoR. Again, despite this, I'm still excited for ID24, it looks great and if everything goes well I'd love to make a mappack with it :3.
Ever hear of the streisand effect? if and when Bethesda decides to do the stupid mistake of throwing C&D everywhere, they would be met with intense backlash and people attempting to keep these mods still up in spite of it all.
I have been thinking making copy of id games wad archive but the fact that there are about terabyte wads in total has held me back. Now I find that it's better to spend that money on external hard drive and enjoy all the Doom mods after 10 or 20 years then regret not doing it.
I 90% agree with your concerns. The 10%: Bethesda isn't a person, so when you say you're cool with "everyone except Bethesda" that doesn't make sense, because most of these people are on Bethesda's payroll. Bethesda is also owned by Microsoft nowadays. I also want to talk a bit about what you said regarding id not being id anymore - id became more than a mere games company the moment that Doom and Quake were open sourced under the GPL. id is everyone in the modding community at this point, especially since it's the community that de facto owns these games nowadays. Legally speaking, of course not, but it would be impossible for MS/Bethesda to send C&Ds to mod authors past and present that use modified graphics. Those lawyer fees would be *insane*, and it would be impossible to scrub 30 years worth of WADs from the internet.
honestly only reason i got doom+doom ii was cuz it was free (100% discounted) and so i didnt really lose anything. but tbh i dont like many of the changes the port comes with and so preffer the 2019 one still
This whole corporation shit, it keeps on repeating itself time and time again and I have a feeling it's only going to get worse in general. From what you've stated in this video, I hope to god it doesn't happen. 30 years of having the doom community branch out the franchise through open source material would be potentially sucked dry, taken over by the corporation and ruined all because of copyright issues. As long as there's no restrictions, i'm sticking to the idgames system.
idgames will always be the best source for sure! I cant see a world where people dont post there and instead only post on bethesda's version, unless legal stuff happened
I think it's quite unfair to brand id as a dead, passionless zombie studio. Even if you don't agree with the direction the company has gone in there are still countless talented individuals that have contributed to a number of different products over the years. More likely than not considering it's id, there's likely to be a whole number of former fans who are working there as well. Why disparage them like that?
there can absolutely be talented people working there, its just that the brand is meaningless when it comes to Doom. Doom was made by a group of people that has nothing in common with the modern day version. No disrespect to any fellow devs!
Nah..... If you look around you'll notice that all the great things about e. g. Doom Eternal were outsourced from freelancers. Their level editor shows that their development pipeline is a shipwreck and they can't make anything on their own. And ofc I've witnessed the insane length of mental gymnastics fanboys go to to justify that.
umm this is a free update to anyone who has owned DOOM on steam or other digital market places for years. replacing the broken unity port allowing others to upload mods easily and releasing all the unseen assets and art at no extra costs the only thing you can argue is they might want to introduce paid mods like fallout or Stanfield but they still allow and dont go after free mods and so far, they've proven with Quake 1 and 2 and somewhat doom 64 that old ID games have gotten great remasters with a loy of nice bonuses.
the assets do require payment to use, which is my main problem with what you wrote. Previously, Romero was posting these assets for free for modders, but now bethesda wants to monetize them and push modderns in a particular direction. Thanks for the comment, though, I agree with most of your post!
This reminds me of why I'm really pretty glad that nobody ever bought the rights to FreeSpace and did a FreeSpace 3. The FreeSpace 2 modding community might be smaller than Doom's but it has a 25 year history, much of which could be destroyed in an instant if the FreeSpace IP passed from the rotted husk of Interplay to someone more litigious. There was genuine fear when Derek Smart considered buying the IP in the late 2000s, and not just because he's a bad game developer who makes shitty products. also sup fellow Doom 4/5 hater. Those games, especially Eternal, are so bombastic and full of themselves they're obnoxious to experience., like the reunion tour and new album of a washed up but very rich rock band. The new album is 90 minutes long, has a glossy modern production (the deluxe edition has the demos that sound better than the studio mix because there's no pitch correction or other post-processing), flashy album art, and is a big musical nothingburger that has the surface of the original blown up to cartoonish proportions, but is hollow inside.
Sounds like a full-fledged conspiracy, but considering how things are nowadays and how much of a conspiraschizoid I am myself, I can't say any of this is either wrong or just a reach
K so you're scared that Bethesda will start taking down modding sites forcing people to use their own mod browser. But like, they are absolutely not stupid enough to try doing that. I honestly didnt really understand this video so I went to read the thread to see if I could get some clarification and just got more confused because it's explicitly stated the ID24 standard is shared and can be used freely. Just the sprites cant which is pretty much what Doom is like anyways. The code is free but you still need the IWAD. So like, what's the big deal?
Great take, totally agree. I really didnt like the modern doom games with the double jumps and the neon candy loot, in my opinion Bethesda tried and failed and shouldve called the game something different. They should have no right to touch the old games, I wonder how it might affect John Romero if he wants to do another Sigil? Sigil 1 and 2 were absolutely fantastic in every detail, I was happy to support John directly but Id be less happy about Bethesda having any influence over it. I think your concerns are spot on and I think its great you are making awareness about them to the DooM community. Bethesdas rights over the old DooM should be nothing more than collecting royalties and being allowed to make new content under the same name, not controlling past content and trying to monopolize things like they will. Id like to see you take on the slaughter maps and mods like Brutal DooM , the latter especially adds new challenges like imps crawling on the ceiling and free aim to deal with those things but it really doesnt change the old DooM experience (make sure turn off things like glory kills in options to keep it vanilla, easy to do) The Brutal DooM mod gives a lot of replay-ability of classic maps, for example I recently played the DooM 2 levels with the BD black edition mod and the challenge was very rewarding, barrells o' fun nearly got me but I managed to figure out a way past it :D . If Bethesda made a new and improved version of the classic game it might encourage people to buy it and spend more time with it than the old game, without having to challenge and bully people away from the old game engine but I doubt they have the emotional intelligence to go in that direction, they probably think they did that with doom eternal etc Love your videos you are a fantastic player to watch
I can't say brutal doom is gonna happen any time soon, but i do want to play some more slaughter some time next year since I've been making my own for the genre so I need to expand my vision :P and thanks!
if i hadn't seen this video, i'd live life thinking the only thing wrong with the new thingy was that the mouse still feels like it has weighties attached to it, because, good input that doesn't make me nauseous (on a _doom_ game, no less) is one of the greatest unsolved problems in computer science, ig, and also just some pretty callous accessibility onboarding and default settings and ui/ux that thoroughly fuck-ing suck. comic sans would've been a better pick for their 'modern' style and it still probably wouldn't look any good with that ui designed by fcking daleks using that awful font renderer that manages to look both blurry and way too aliased and yes nigh actually unreadable for me AUEGHGhfbsyhfcgt ughhhhhh (haven't actually even watched two minutes yet, thought i'd check the new port out myself first and-- guh)
and why are healthpacks still green. green is way too luminescent and looks bad on the light gray packs, so why is it green stilllllll..... whyyyyyyy just use 0000ff blueeeeee it looks so much betterrr
not at all into (actual) doom modding but hoping the new comp layer bombs lol besides, can't the features proper just be replicated..? actually didn't zdoom already have everything that anyone could ever want and then some much too more as for bleeding players away into bethesda's mod sharing thing-- i mean. will it? and if it does will it even survive any substancial amount of time
Bethesda's leadership is obsessed with centralizing all modding of their games under their own control, to the point of making the latest versions of their engine -- _the most widely and easily modded games on the planet_ (which aren't outright Free/Libre Open Source Software) -- difficult to mod as much. (See Starfield). They've tried their Community Mods or wtf-ever thing three times now. They are trying the same thing, just as badly, with Doom. It's time to get Freedoom polished to a shine and sprint into a teleporter off of the Bethesda properties. Make them go bankrupt, make Microsoft shut them down, and create a void for someone else to come in. After all, Bethesda doesn't even make RPGs anymore, just theme parks whose quests _don't even make sense_
dear god! a company which owns a franchise... wants to make money from that franchise?!?! good fucking lord! good FUCKING lord! ignore that quite literally nothing has changed with the release of the port, but ough corpo bad 15 minute video that felt like it was 2 hours from how mind numbing it was
Way too many people don't realize how much they benefit from things being free and/or open source until they aren't anymore. Copyright law is one of the single greatest strangleholds in existence on human creativity, on innovation, and on the preservation of art. Like capitalism in general, it's anti-human and anti-life.
DooM community also have a toxicity and incedible levels of elitism. But otherwise you are right. Bethesda trying to hijack DooM modding is worse than that.
tbh i really wish they just made it as good or preferably better than what GZDOOM can offer,wads like myhouse arent just gonna work on there unless somebody just downgrades it (correct if im wrong about that). i say this because gzdoom has its fair share of problems like the fact its still very dependent on singlecore which really limits the engine now. (ex. selaco runs very intensively now because of the singlecore bottleneck). it would be nice to see something that can step up the evolution of the engine, like the best thing the KEX engine wrapper can offer is that its properly multithreaded, and despite your views on corpos, it can be good if money gets involved if it means the end product is better. too bad its not the case here
the main thing is that all these ports are made for free and are better than what this corporation is offering to do, and that feels like so many people are being taken advantage of.
I think consoles are a dying market, but we'll see how that goes. Either way, decades of work was put into the id24 spec by a bunch of people who didnt get paid, and then a few guys got paid to "rewrite" those decades of work at the expense of free port developers, which is a major concern for me in how they will go forward
The thing about GZDoom is that there would be a whole different tangle of rights issues there, and the people who develop GZDoom aren't exactly known for being stable
TL;DW
-corporations are bad
-NDAs are bad
-corporate interference in modding directions are bad
-lack of community input is bad
-lack of demo compatibility is bad
-putting new previously freely released asset types behind a paywall is bad
-taking advantage of unpaid labor is bad
-copyright and intellectual property are certainly not good
-hierarchies are bad
-the actual expansion is probably good
im sorry, but can you elaborate a bit on "putting freely released assets behind paywalls"?
Totally agree. We may not legally own the IP but we certainly morally own it. A simple metric for me is compare the number of levels made by the IP 'owners' and the number of levels made by the community. The soothsayers telling the cynics that we've nothing to worry about regarding a big-dick-corporation swinging into the chat asserting its ownership status while getting all those 'community' members involved to sign NDA's after shutting down Romero of all people just so that *they* can give the *free* stuff away is at best naive in the extreme. Sorry about the rant but I'm really bothered by all this. Thank you for sharing this video. :)
"corporations are bad" "hierarchies are bad"
basedbasedbasedbased
I can't wait for copyright and IP's to end as a legal concept so corporations can steal from smaller developers and peoples creations can be stripped from them
GMod is a paid game with a mod repository. Doom + Doom 2 is not taking advantage of unpaid labor. Not unless the mods themselves become paid.
6:21 See, this is the distinction a lot of people don't understand. It's not the actual community members who worked on this stuff I'm particularly worried about.. I know they genuinely love Doom/modding/"getting Doom to the people" etc. It's the new levels of corporate involvement. I know these Doomers don't want to see things get restricted, I'm just worried about deep corporate involvement, the eyes of lawyers being on our stuff, etc..
Though I have to say, on the bullet list of good points, I think "-much easier/crossplatform multiplayer" is a really legitimate good thing, especially for old DM farts like me who remember when it was more popular, this has been a genuinely great thing..
But I'm slightly worried about the future. Cautiously hopeful it WON'T get bad. To be dead honest I already share a lot of "illegal" Doom assets in a few places because... I mean, come on. It's ancient data by now. The fact that we can't post those beta assets freely anymore sticks in my craw so deep, I would just have to stick my head in the sand to pretend that isn't potential writing on the wall.
The uploader... You know how shit I think it is. Easy access to wads = good, but in this form... It's a barf bag with occasional gold in it, so to speak. Really just not happy with how that went/is going down either.
The id24 spec just sucks and it's obvious bethesda wants control of the doom modding scene.
Let's call it bethesda24.
Never was much of a multiplayer gamer myself, but good shout, im sure that the wider playerbase for DM is a cool time!
when I made this video I wasn't really aware of what was going on with you getting posts pulled, but yeah this idea of bethesda trying to claim UNUSED ASSETS as copyrighted material and presumably putting their foot down on romero's batches from way back is totally fucked and something that makes me want to make a follow up to this video since this video has reached outside my intended audience lmao.
The uploader, too, is such a nightmare lmao, but i havent even looked at it myself. Would you be willing to chat about this on discord or something? I'd love to pick your brain about a few other things on the matter
@@AndreaPlaysDoom Embracd, Extend, Extinguish.
@@RationalFunction I doubt many would just switch over fully, but then again not many people understand the shite stain bethesda is.
@@AndreaPlaysDoom "bethesda trying to claim UNUSED ASSETS as copyrighted material"
I'm pretty sure that assets do not become not copyrighted because they're unused. id Software owns those assets whether used or not.
regaurdless i'm keeping my .wad files and gz doom.
Same here and am archiving all I can.
I was too young to understand why people were pissed at Team TNT. I get it now.
I'm not so sure. I think that there's a difference between selling a mod and selling a modding platform. one's wayyy more optional.
@@EuryBartleby why would anyone be mad at TNT? Why would it ever be the case that people who spend thousands of hours creating content should just do it for free?
@@everennui1 Because they said it would be free. Mind you, I don't care, they got an offer of payment and took it, but that's why people were pissy back in the day.
I'm going to point out that the original Doom itself was never Open Source, only the engine that it ran on was.
That is the reason the Original games have been available to purchase for as long as they have.
correct!
There even an attempt to fork GzDoom to remove any trace of copyrighted material that may be found hanging. Gloome i think
This video really didn’t offer any solid insight aside from “I don’t believe in copyrights and I hate Bethesda.” While that’s fair, nothing about it means that the Doom modding community will suddenly end because of a new official port’s release.
Nothing is stopping people from continuing to do great work for Boom, ZDoom, Odamex, ZDaemon, etc.
As far as modding official artwork (textures and sprites), that was always technically “illegal,” but there was never truly a time when id Software or Bethesda came down on people for it.
As long as no one charged money for whole asset rips, I believe it was largely tolerated for over 3 decades. If Microsoft/bethesda suddenly goes after people for this now, then your video would have an actual point (but they haven’t).
In any case, I’m sure some people aren’t happy that the new release isn’t open source. However, that still doesn’t change any of the other work people have done or will continue to do from (and with) the original source release. You don’t like the idea of “intellectual property”? A good amount of artists/creative professionals may disagree with you.
The ID1-res.wad from LOR comes with an extra 1,000 textures for modders to use.
I love it, regardless of the negative aspects.
Curiosity question as I have not tried it: are all the wad files (besides the brand new episode, my guess) the original sets that can be used with GZDOOM or do they have to use the new engine?
@@viewtifuljoe4412 you can play using GZDoom. Just need the wad file like with Doom or Doom 2
@@viewtifuljoe4412 they can be used with GZDoom
@@viewtifuljoe4412zdoom needs to become ID21 fully compatible the animated sky's don't work
I do agree with you as far as a corporation gaining ownership over an old game, and trying to take over the community with micro transactions and leveraging the engine to get more money. We saw Blizzard do that with their poorly managed Warcraft 3 remaster, forcing people to waive any rights to any mod (specifically new game types) made for their game.
However, I disagree a bit as far as intellectual property. I don't like big businesses owning ideas and technology patents, but someone should get credit for their ideas and effort, and a company (like id Software) deserves credit for making the game*.
Also, id Software (I think specifically John Carmack) made the Doom ENGINE (idtech 1) Open Source, not the game itself. You can use the engine anyway you want, even build and sell new games with it freely. However, id Software still owns the rights to Doom; so you can make mods for it, you can make fan art, but you can't make a commercial product featuring the monsters, scenarios, weapons, characters in the game.
Even more, idtech 1 didn't become Open Source until years after the game came out; someone from the Open Source community showed Carmack a Linux port of Doom, which impressed him. He then started releasing Linux ports of id games and then Open Sourcing them years later, until Rage for some reason. Then he just turned his back on Linux and the Open Source community for some reason.
*Yes, nobody from the old days of id Software still works there, not even Carmack, but the rights to the property belong to the company, not any individual who worked on it. And it is a sticking point for me that not only is id Software a shell of its former self, but now owned by Microsoft.
credit and property are different things. I have no issue with the original id team making money from their game, but i DO have an issue with people who had nothing to do with Doom making money from it because they were already rich enough to buy the IP from someone else.
And yea, I know about the open source of the engine and not the game, just a little bit of mispeak / i assume most people know what im referring to anyway. Rage was the last game id software made, so that's why it was the last game to have source code released openly.
Thanks for the comment and discussion! Always appreciate hearing perspectives.
@@AndreaPlaysDoom the last engine to be open-sourced was the Doom 3 engine, which is id tech 4. id tech 5 that runs Rage was never released, and now we're at id tehc 7.
@@AndreaPlaysDoomwell ain't that how real estate business works?
@@AndreaPlaysDoommodern doom runs on Boom by Team TNT source
"Tim Willits is full of shit"
-Civvie11
Really appreciate you bringing this topic up and discussing it. This is obviously the first step in an attempt by a corporation with a history of ruining modding scenes to try to monetize the Doom modding scene and line their pockets from a game which I paid full price for in 1994 and should NEVER have to purchase again. Screw Bethesda.
I hadn't really thought that hard about this since Bethesda's last attempt to update the game with their Unity port kinda flopped. I think that the backlash from the modding and speedrunning communities would be significant. Thanks for the anxiety! ;)
oops!
Thanks for making this video, Andrea. I had no idea that this new issue of Doom has such potential ramifications. It's such a shame: I haven't played any other video games beyond Doom wads for the past 3 years and I'm seriously disappointed that this state of affairs could come to an end, and so suddenly.
It's such a shame
jeez i didnt even know about the spyro rom hacking community. That's fuckin sad. If doom died like that, it would be devistating. I really don't mind paying for a game that I think will be enjoyable, but having to shell out a premium for a 20-30 year old game doesnt sit right with me at all. Seeing anything go from open source to closed source just sucks ass.
That's a one way ticket for making a modding community go from inclusive to exclusive. While I'm curious to try the new expansion/port, I'd rather pirate it.
I think doom is immune to any real form a death like that, but it'd really suck to see places like idgames get c/d'd
@dansmoothback9644 a premium? It's $9 for an entirely new game. And you get Doom and Doom 2 for free with it.
I want to see modders make money from their hard work.
G0G-G@m3$.2
It came free for me as I own the DooM series on both GoG and Steam.
@@viewtifuljoe4412 you don't have to have it on both, but i'll take GoG over steam any day.
Great video! I don't keep up with DoomWorld other than posting speedruns so this is good to know.
Also, the WAD and map level is a good touch when watching the Doom playthrough in the background.
I usually do the same, but sometimes the scoops are irresistible 😩
This is why for the past 4-5 years I'm archiving everything gzdoom and also freedoom and crispy doom on offline media. It's just around 5-7gigs but still
I’ll just say it: fuck Bethesda. Whatever good will I had for the company was lost when I found out how bad they screwed over Mick Gordon, and the fact I didn’t enjoy where Doom Eternal is taking the series. Good thing I randomly came across my old copy of the Doom trilogy on disc. They won’t be getting any more of my support or respect after all this crap
Doom Eternal is not doom.... and the new medieval doom with a convoluted and self referencing story already sounds like gargbage.
@@zero_baja8015 It's like they're trying to pander to the unironic Caesar (FO:NV) simping, Paradox game-playing, Sabaton-listening, Deus Vult-screaming, RETVRN immature assholes.
@@UnrealPersonnot really, where’s the pandering? Is the fact that those people like it an indication that it HAS to be tailor made for them? That’s not necessarily true
@@zero_baja8015 ugh i loath people like you because you seem like the annoying grandparent type to say "back in MY day" over everything because it's not what you grew up with
@@TheOnlyPedroGameplays also yeah i dunno what that comment was smoking there lol
Have you played decawads, like RAMP? i am advertising the RAMP community projects because i mae two maps.
Not yet, but one day I'll take a crack.
there are four ramps so far... the one made this year has 311 maps
i'm not a big modding guy but I can 100% acknowledge the implications this has. I do think dismissing the new id guys is a bit shitty tho, I understand being frustrated that they don't have that "tech freedom" mindset that they used to, but I'm sure a lot of people in the team really do care for the source material. NuDoom titles wouldn't have been so successful otherwise
As someone who is new to the forum, I am thankful for this video, it helps in understanding doom community drama, thanks for that
since this video was uploaded the drama has gotten wayyyyy worse lmao, but thanks for the comment :P
@@AndreaPlaysDoom yeah, I checked onto my soon to be alive doomworld account and I have an entire paragraph to read, I'm a linux nerd trying to find a way to make my dosbox make midi noises, I need to read a lot of paragraphs already
Seems like it was getting better and then kraflab got hit with the 1 year ban xd. Kinsie too of course.
The way that I see it, the new Doom port is a good thing (just on a surface level standpoint), because a regular end-user can download the game from Steam and not have to download and configure a separate third-party sourceport because the Steam version for the longest time only had the DOS version and then the extremely mediocre Unity port that lacked even basic PC features that were in the sourceports. Setting aside the lack of vertical aim, not having the PSX version as an extra (Like how Quake 2 had the N64 version), and GZDoom mod support, this is a really solid entry point for people wanting a simple solution to play the game.
I suppose ID24 being developed behind closed doors was a questionable decision, but under the context that they shadow dropped this update out of nowhere (Because it probably would've raised suspicions otherwise), and the specifications were released, It's probably only a matter of time until the big sourceports implement these features. Now if Bethesda decided to do another update at some point and then decide not to release the specifications, it would probably be a big concern as modders would likely need to reverse engineer to figure out.
Breaking demo support (Which likely includes speedruns) is definitely a big cause for concern though.
As somebody who see post Starfield Bethesda breaking Skyrim for the sake of new Creations, i agree.
@@meyers0781 Exactly
we should definetly exercise extreme caution regarding Bethesda and iD... we do still have freedoom though and we have the freedoom team working on a free version of the stuff required for iD24
You had me at 3:50 when you said you don't believe in IP. If more people not only shared that sentiment but understood the ramifications, communities could get so much done without having to look over their shoulders constantly.
You haven't said anything about ID24 and its possible impact.
I'll read the Doomworld comments, though, to find out how much there are genuine concerns, and how much is just self-centered crazy people intoxicated with the digital statuses they've obtained after spending more time than they should on an Internet forum.
Try watching a video for longer than 2 minutes before leaving a comment, thanks
@@AndreaPlaysDoom I watched the whole video.
citation needed!
I believe what the issue is is with taking modders who have perhaps worked on stuff with GZDOOM and other ports is that Bethesda can easily "give" them code to put into the ports thus giving Bethesda a backdoor link to ownership as they could prove the code was from them. Also them trying to set a standard when their own games are buggy messes of shite is just hilarious.
@@viewtifuljoe4412 Creation engine games are crap, sure. Can't say Doom 2016 / Eternal really gave me much grief.
Here's the thing. I don't think Bethesda would even have a fighting chance to go after the mountains upon mountains of existing Doom content over copyright nonsense. They'd just be fighting the hydra at that point. They strike down a mod with copyrighted material, 10 more will take its place.
The good thing is that we now have a free equivalent for the new id24 assets in the works: FD24, an extension of FreeDoom. So that alone already covers the aspect of paywalled materials. If that isn't enough, I suggest chartering a boat from a friend with one leg.
Overall, I feel that this video is rather alarmist, all things considered. I think ultimately Bethesda and Zenimax don't really care about this remaster enough to be anal about the custom content, as it's not really going to turn them enough of a profit. We can talk all we want about how much id isn't what it used to be (this card feels overplayed tbh), but I'm like 90% sure this "new id" is who got Nightdive and Machine Games together and made this remaster happen, not Bethesda, so you have to give them credit in that regard.
You're someone I've always considered to be rather intelligent based on what I've seen of you on Doomworld, so I'm curious what your thoughts are now given that the hype has died down.
when it comes to corporations, im always pretty alarmist because I come from the school of thought that power is a zero sum game, and corporations should be as close to 0% as possible.
since this video was made (which was definitely in the middle of the "hype" lol) my takes are pretty similar. I generally just want to instill a sense of ownership in the community of the games that they love, because no one has the right to take it away from us (yknow, morally), and i've been in communities that had the "it won't happen to us" phase and it sucks to be there. I dont think they'll go scorched earth, but I also truly believe everything is fine as it is, and corporate involvement is never what it seems, but im a fairly paranoid person when corporations are involved in anything, generally, and I wear that bias on my sleeve.
As far as the spec itself, it doesnt seem useful at all to me. It looks like a mucky hybrid of zdoom and mbf that i dont see the purpose in. the new features are nothing zdoom cant do, and stuff I dont really care to do in mbf. I've worked extensively in both zdoom family stuff and mbf/boom/doom stuff, and i truly just dont understand what features or tech id24 brings to the table and i think its only riding the high of the "this is OFFICIAL" stamp on that regard.
the id24 wad is only cool for the assets it has, so fd24 seems pointless to me personally, other than people with a paycheck just offloading labor to people without one. The assets should have been free, like romero had posted with others, and the whole "needing a different wad to load a complevel" thing is just weird, but im not a port dev so I dont really care about it more than that.
As far as community goes, doomworld banning kraflab was a gigantic mistake and i'd be shocked to hell if dsda-doom implemented anything from id24 as a result, but more importantly, it continues a trend I've seen on doomworld all my life of people having fights, never working it out, and then bumping heads X years later in much worse ways. to me, doom is a critical piece of games history, and it may very well be the most important piece of game modding history of all time, and so I treat a lot of the goings-on with that lens in mind, and I do not like the cliquey trend of groups vs groups ("speedrunners vs mappers", "zdoom vs dsda-doom", "doomworld vs doomerboards", etc.) because to me it just spells doom (hehehe) for the future if microsdidmax one day decides they do wanna do some shit. In other words, if this was a test balloon, we have failed that test completely as a community and I think doomworld moderators wanting to brush that whole aspect under the rug will have lasting impacts on the longevity of dsda-doom and speedrunners, which is just horrible to witness as someone who is invested in each aspect of the scene.
Thanks for the kind words, if you have any more questions let me know!
I don't know, I wouldn't give Bethesda even the tiniest sliver of the benefit of the doubt when it comes to this stuff.
They could absolutely go after any and all mods that uses commercially derived assets if they so wanted to. Just to name a few mods off the top of my head, that includes:
- Any Doom wad that has IWAD textures included.
- Doom Sprite Fixing Project
- Doom Delta
- Smooth Doom
- Brutal Doom and its derivatives
- The plethora of Doom 64 conversion mods
- The plethora of PSX Doom conversion mods
And more, I think you get the picture.
There is absolutely valid reason to be cautious.
@@terraformer9x223 I think if they thought they had anything worthwhile to gain from going after those mods, they would've done it years ago, I'm sure of it. Bethesda's definitely a shitty company, but they're not as predatory as Nintendo is about these things.
@@theopenrift No, they aren't. But it's also still not a reason to be cautious about the possibility given how Legacy of Rust assets are not free to use in other mods and it really brings up the question again of whether the commercially derivative stuff found in other Doom wads are okay.
Legacy of Rust should've been released as a free wad as to circumvent a lot of the headache, the circumstances surrounding it and id24 have definitely muddied the waters badly and it doesn't look good for Doom's modding future unless everyone abandons id24 before it even sets sail and leave it as a Doom + Doom 2 thing only.
@terraformer9x223 I agree, they should've taken that route with LoR, but I don't think anyone could've convinced the biz folks of any studio involved to do that, so this is what we got.
That being said, Woof is already adopting ID24s stuff and it's been coming along pretty well. I think the whole Kraflab drama from the ID24 thread blew some stuff out of proportion, based on what I've heard.
It's a good port, but I'll be sticking to fan made source ports like LZDoom and Nugget Doom.
No offence man but a significant portion of this video comes across as extremely rambly, and it seems like; judging by many of the comments here that I wasn't the only one to notice. There's a lot of tangents messily put together and the only concrete information I feel like I got out of it regarding your actual concerns is when you spoke of what happened to the Spyro community. Which is a completely valid point but it doesn't come until the latter half/last-third of the video.
I still don't even know what id24 is or what it's supposed to do.
this isnt a scripted youtube video, i am just a normal person. thanks for the comment!
This video is a golden example of how to talk for minutes while saying absolutely nothing
Was doing my dishes and listening to it. Love some good ole fashioned Doom conspiracy
this comment is a golden example of how to talk for a sentence while saying absolutely nothing.
@@AndreaPlaysDoomBlud really just said “nuh uh!!”
no u
@@clarenceoveur9497 its not a conspiracy. you can't play skyrim together or good fallout 4 version thanks to updating new crap versions of bethesda games.
Hi. Thanks for the video. Your perspective on IP laws was interesting although it might put a lot of people off.
The Spyro takedowns are sad but unfortunately not uncommon these days.
Having read most of the DW thread and watched your video of course, I'm not sure how "guilty" id24 is in this.
If id24 didn't exist, the KEX port still would. You don't mention this explicitly, but I guess without id24 the mod browser would've been neutered due to lack of MBF21 compatibility, so that does implicate id24 somewhat. Except I'm not really sure if they would've given up on MBF21 compatibility without Goober.
The fact that they licensed Goober's code to be able to do this tells me they've already had their eyes on doom mods for a while. So your concerns would be equally valid without id24 in my opinion.
Regarding the issue at large, I understand both sides. On one hand, it seems preposterous now to say "corporate might take down all doom mods". That would be the single biggest takedown of all time and would go against decades of precedence. On the other, they COULD do it, so the further they stay away from us the better. Although in my personal opinion, the odds of them doing this haven't really changed since the release of KEX/id24. It's still basically zero. Although I understand why you would think otherwise.
The only way to ensure we are scott-free would be for them to change the licensing on Doom assets, making them free & letting us modify and distribute them as we wish (with commercial boundaries). That could be a big ask and is highly unlikely, but it's the only way to give us reassurance.
Finally I'd like to give some feedback on the video if you don't mind. I think it could be worth your while to write scripts for videos like this. Or at least a basic outline to follow. It could help keeping your language concise and brief, while making sure you go over everything you want to. Some of the things you say in your pinned tl;dw comment aren't even mentioned in the video itself if I'm not mistaken.
hi! thanks for the feedback. i dont write scripts for my videos because it's not really my style, and this video reached far outside my intended audience, and since i made it there's been a lot more developments. I agree with most of what you said here!
my main issue is that the new episode is effectively locked to the new official source port, making it a lot like the quake re-releases where the new content breaks compatibility with the decades-old community standards for no apparent (good) reason.
That’s not true. You can run Legacy of Rust with the gzDOOM source port. The Quake episode Dimension of the Machine is playable with the vkQuake source port.
the new episodes and levels I'm quake 1 and 2 are great besides they were free upgrades if you owned the original on steam.
and they do take advantage of the updated engine.
going around a big and detailed map and gunning down a room of 20 to 30 strogg is a lot of fun
@@uriel666marco the new intermission screen is broken, and according to the ID24 specs theres likely more thats broken that i havent run into. also, on release, no community source port could play dimension of the machine. it took months to get it working.
@@shade221 so? I am sure that will be fixed too in the future. Even The Force Engine required an update to run the new Dark Forces Remastered assets. I know, what a shame that a company want money for something they created. It’s still their property. They have all the right to do whatever they want with it.
For the record, from what I've seen, id24 isn't closed source, it wasn't difficult at all for me to find a whole bunch of documentation on it, and it wasn't hidden or anything, it was meant to be publicly viewable. Whether that accounts for everything I don't know, but at least for version 0.9.1, which is what's currently in the commercial port, it's not hard to find the specs for. And um... y'know if you can understand any of it, even better.
The real issue for me is also why I'm not worried: it's obsolete nonsense. For people familiar with Doom and it's ports and history and all of that already, this doesn't really matter, it is what it is. But the thing is, Bethesda isn't making money off of this from any of those people. People who understand that the new format is pre-obsolete either already bought the game on one of the digital storefronts where it's a free update (btw can I just say people need to stfu with calling this commercial product "free?" like learn what words mean? holy shit?), or have already paid their dues and have no interest in paying for a copy of a game they already own with extra bonus always online steam DRM. This port is going to make money because people are going to pay for it now who:
1. Didn't have a copy of Doom already.
2. Are too lazy or dumb to pirate it.
3. Saw something in the bullet points on the back of the box that convinced them to do so.
The only market that really ticks all those boxes are console buyers who saw that it has mod compatibility. But the problem is... it doesn't. It only goes up to, like... Boom... and some stuff after that. This demographic with a passing interest in Doom paying for it specifically because it says it has mod compatibility is going to think this means My House and Brutal Doom. Then they're going to download My House in the port, see that it doesn't work, upload their own version because they wouldn't understand or assume that a commercial product released in the year of our glorp 2024 wouldn't support the only Doom mod they've heard of, find that doesn't work, and so on and so forth.
The end result of that process is the roughly 10 or so different uploads of My House on the mod browser (along with a bunch of other stuff that doesn't work, it's a whole thing), and a bunch of people searching up what the problem is and finding out pretty quickly that for 0$ they can have all of that and more. So Bethesda's choices here are kinda just introducing this demographic of rubes to the wider Doom modding community and now they don't have to wait for the port to be finished. (Oh yeah the port is literally unfinished, it was forced out the door in time for Quake Con, it's still in active development.)
(Also it's a commercial product released for real actual money in the year of our flumpf 2024 that still uses fffffucking DEHACKED like it's god damned 1995. Not a joke.)
I'm not saying your concerns aren't legitimate or don't need voicing or anything like that, I agree with you, it's creepy as hell. It's just... well... I've seen it before. Not with Spyro, but with Dungeons & Dragons. Bottom line is, if you give tools to a demographic of people and let them make it their own for multiple decades, then later come back and call that "undermonetized" and try to get greasy with it... well you know. If you want to come for the king you need to come out swinging, and this ain't it. So it's not that I'm not concerned, I just don't perceive this as a legitimate threat.
If THIS is the argument the anti-ID24 side is on, I'm firmly on board with ID24 and hope to see it fully implemented and used in future releases.
I mean, let's look at some of the arguments. "This was made behind closed doors." Oh, and you've been involved in the making of the other standards have you? No? Alright, that argument's trashed. Next. "Id software isn't the REAL Id software." And neither are the people making source ports or other standards. So that's another argument for the trash bin. You don't like HOW id24 was made. Doesn't matter. What does ID24 DO? It allows more flexibility, letting you add weapons and monsters instead of replacing them. "Oh yea, well this source port already can do that." With its own proprietary system that falls under the same issues you already complain about for ID24. And this new standard is open so it can be used for other ports as well. Crispy could add it, DSDA could add it, Boom, Zdoom, whatever port you want could add it. In fact, it's encouraged to.
This controversy will die, the sooner the better, and people will adopt the format to give mod makers MORE options to do more things, as it should be.
gosh, you're so ebic and egdy
@@AndreaPlaysDoom Still no actual arguments about the content of ID24, just emotional prattling about things you don't like. *Condescendingly pats you on the head.* You tried. You failed miserably, but you tried.
go back to 4chan, please kthx
@@The_Nametag Including something specifically to "ensure the commercial viability of Doom and Doom II" isn't content?
Where does the open source code release play into this? The Spyro situation is different in that the community there relied on reverse engineering? I'd be interested to know the significance of Carmack's decision to make idTech 1 open source, even if -Bethesda- -Zenimax- Microsoft owns the DOOM IP. I'm under the assumption that this is the reason why the powers that be are more inclined to lean into the modding community for brand recognition, rather than doing a Nintendo.
As for 'Doom Four' and 'Doom Five', they were a well needed shake up to the genre as far as the modern day is concerned. Their influence has been a net positive IMO, regardless of what individuals may think of the games themselves.
I played Quake 3 for a decade straight. I seem to find myself doing the same for Doom Eternal. Speaking of which, the dev tools for Eternal is a pretty cool gesture in an age where releasing a major title's source code is extremely uncommon (AFAIK at least).
Perhaps I'm just naive and love corporations, though.
Edit: None of this is to downplay your concerns about the state of the classic Doom community as a whole. My question about the significance of the open source code is sincere.
I do think there's something to be said about pushing the brand. That is how I view the Unity port and now the KEX port (which many speculate exists because of Unity's recent PR blunders). It's less about making hard cash and more about keeping the brand's extended content relevant to a significantly broader audience - which will of course go a long way to sell -Doom 6- Doom: The Dark Ages. I would like to think that it'd be in the publisher's best interest to keep the doomworld community continuously engaged in it's own bubble for more decades to come, especially now they're able to directly benefit from it.
doom being open source is the best possible thing imaginable, and the only way it could be undone is if they tried to do take downs on mod websites, which I doubt will happen any time in the near future, but the *possibility* of it is the real concern. Pushing the brand is great, I just wish it was done in a way that respected the people who kept the brand alive during the so-called "dark age" of doom's popularity.
but all of that can change with one decision from a CEO or a lawyer.
@@AndreaPlaysDoom How would you have had them push the brand in a way that respects the modding community? What would you have done differently to give millions of console players access to the countless MegaWADS, revered by so many and for so long? It stands to reason that an official release would be required to conform to the policies of _all_ major gaming platforms, so I'd be curious to know what ought to have been done differently as far as transparency is concerned? Is there a blackbox system in place in development of this new port? Can't the seasoned Doomworld users look beneath the hood now it's released?
I'm also curious about the legalities concerning any attempt to mass take down 25+ years worth of open source derivative works and how feasible it would even be? If you know anything I don't, I'd love to hear it.
I'm completely fine with the system that had 2 weeks ago, of having a curated list of wads that functioned perfectly and were easy to find. My only issue with that system was the long delay between releases. This new system is full of unmoderated wads that don't work or are full of bugs, all information has been stripped (like txt info, copyright stuff from mod authors and all that)
My bias is clear, though, I hate modern game companies and don't respect their standards or policies in any way, and so as a result, I see this as a "dumbing down" that I'm wary of the trajectory of.
For the takedown concern, there's plenty of material in doom wads that are in a "legal gray area". Such as taking a zombieman sprite, editing them to have a tshirt on, and putting it in your wad. Technically thats illegal to some degree, and its just dependent on whether or not lawyers at zeni/micro/beth/id want to go ham on it.
To me, this seems like step 1 in the process of importing things to their ecosystem. once on that ecosystem, there's less pressure to resist taking down the "unofficial" mirrors. Conspiratorial thinking, perhaps, but we do live in an era of corporate malfeasance.
@@AndreaPlaysDoom My bias lies in the fact that I quit PC gaming in 2007 (i had to hang up the keyboard and mouse for medical reasons, so I'm basicallya PC gamer 'trapped' in the console space) and so I wholly rely on whatever I can get officially in the console space.
The only thing I lamented about the unity port was a lack of 120Hz support, as fhe input lag was atrocious on console. I, too, was happy with the mod support as it was. Thanks to the new port, the expansion of compatibility has significantly increased. Been able to finally attempt to -suffer- play through Sunder on an Xbox is amazing. That said, I agree. The free form, creditless cesspool of a mod browser is atrocious and seeing Nightdive's Edward justify it all with a barebones reporting system on doomworld was pretty hilarious. It'll almost certainly have to fundamentally change.
Yeah, I get the zombieman thing. Even as a cynical person, I seriously doubt your concerns will come to reality. I don't know, though.
I appreciate your measured responses, thank you.
You've got some great gameplays. There's a magic 'intuition' of sorts from hardcore doomers and it's something I appreciate now more than ever after getting wrecked in Eviternity, Scythe and Ancient Aliens etc.
I'm pretty decent at games but when it comes to classic Doom, I'm still sweating it out pistol starting in Plutonia.
Thanks for reading my essays 👍
well, you can certainly play doom wads with a controller on PC, so don't worry about that too much! DSDA-Doom has full controller support last time I checked.
Yeah, I looked at the unity port and it sucked ass, but the system around it (wad uploader wise) was far superior to the current IMO.
Thanks for the kind words! I try my best :)
I don't think a cease and desist is going to happen because of how large the modding community actually is and the potential backlash from said community.
With how local mods are automatically deleted when being added into the mods folder, this port is probably going to get even more closed off and proprietary. Hope they don't try to launch cease and desists against other, objectively better ports
Honestly, I'm perfectly okay with id-Bethesda doing what Valve has already been doing for 3 decades, poaching modders. Is it annoying for the scene? Yeah, means that mod projects will get stalled cus the devs are hired up. But hey, if the devs are getting paid money to do official corporate work, I can't be too mad.
However, what is I am fully against is IF id-Bethesda intends to FORCE their Port as the ONLY modding standard in the future. Cus what this would mean is, they would have incentive to kill the entire DOOM modding history before our very eyes. Deleting doom world archives, all doom related forums shut down, and all other source ports shut down. No more Mods, no more WADs, all gone like tears in the rain.
Some would see this doomsday scenario as 'impossible'.... but it's already how Nintendo operates. Shutting down romhacks left and right. id-Bethesda could fully abuse the DMCA to kill Doom forever cus they want only 'Official Modding' to make OG Doom 'financially lucrative'........ it's pure evil, but corpos don't care about culture, history, or morality.
The ONLY saving grace here is that Bethesda developers are trying to unionize. Not sure if this extends to id though, cus despite it being owned by Bethesda (Microsoft now?) it is technically a separate developer entity.
Yeah, i have no issue at all about modders getting brought into the scene, but I think a lot of people have rose colored glasses about what being in the game dev industry really is about in the current day and age. Can only hope they don't nuke us at this point, but the fallout show was super successful, so they might be more likely to press the big red button ;)
Absolutely agree, you should never trust that a company won't abuse copyright law to destroy something just because it's good. if it wasn't good there'd be no reason to destroy it!
@@AndreaPlaysDoom Even if Bethesda makes the most boring games imaginable, I do genuinely think if the Bethesda devs can secure unionizing they'll be down to protect DOOM modding.
Honestly, the worst case scenario here is if Microsoft does liquidate id Software and then Epic games buys up the DOOM IP or some shit.
(Epic liquidated Unreal games despite naming their engine off Unreal & Fortnite being entirely developed by the Unreal Tournament developers)
@@vj7248I am so glad that I still own those old Unreal games on disc and through GOG. Disgusting what Epic did there.
Well, at least when it comes to source code, they cannot possibly do anything. GPL is a very, very strong license and people who make things for free for communities should settle for nothing less. (which unfortunately they often do...)
I just grabbed my Doom2.wad from the Doom1+2 re(re)release Steam folder to play GZdoom Ray Traced Doom 2. It was a legit concern I had when I had to hunt for the .wad though.. Guess it's not so bad after all! :P
Maybe now is finally the time for me to make some bloody maps.. I remember installing a map builder on my Windows 3.1 486 back in the day but I was too young to figure it out :P
obligatory: "only 1 view after 34 seconds, max fell off".
seriously thanks for the breakdown/explanation and don't worry about being too spicy, if you click on someone's youtube channel you should expect to hear their opinions. if i dont agree i can post my own video.
i was about to nitpick and say "well (glasses push) actually doom was not released as open source, it wasn't until years later..." and then i realized that even 1997, when carmack made his github post, is almost thirty years ago, then i died instantly and turned to dust. rip to me
rip dust
I commend you for casting a net yourself as well. Erm akshully not even git existed at the time, and please for the love of anything that's holy, don't equate Free software with Github/Micro$oft even in a joke!
Time to buy a few harddrives and start mirroring idgames.
I think 128gb is enough if you cherry pick the great ones.
Heck i only have around 7gb filled by the best ones, now I'm just want to fill in Community Chest series.
Also Obsidian helps in case no internet
How can we mirror idgames?
I personally remain excited for ID24 but I do have a slight anxiety now that I've seen this. Though I'm not exactly as Socialist as I've observed you to be (I say that respectfully, we just have different views .w.), I do agree that this does have somewhat of an insidious implication. I do think the people at Id Software themselves still care enough about Doom to not do too much shit about this though, and that Bethesda might be a little careful about fucking with Doom, especially given how big the modding community is (and how much bigger it has gotten with the success of NuDoom and how GZDoom has paved the way for lots more interesting modding as well as much higher effort total conversions), though you may argue that's just wishful thinking.
I just hope that ID24 does get at least a lot better leniency and availability for modders. I think I remember recalling that the group behind Freedoom planned on making their own version of ID24's resources once things get finalized with that standard so that is one thing to look out for.
Also, a correction: Doom + Doom II is only 10 dollars. In fact, it would have costed more to get the first two games and Final Doom on steam before the big merge, given that (if I remember correctly) Final Doom was also around 5 bucks before all of the IWADs got merged. Though its debatable if that's a good price for those who already owned the original games and wanted to play LoR.
Again, despite this, I'm still excited for ID24, it looks great and if everything goes well I'd love to make a mappack with it :3.
i agree they're trying to fragment the community, it's all done on purpose
honestly the biggest fear i have with this is the fact that this is microsoft, the company infamous for inventing embrace, extend, extinguish.
I always said it: id Software is a husk of its former self
Ever hear of the streisand effect? if and when Bethesda decides to do the stupid mistake of throwing C&D everywhere, they would be met with intense backlash and people attempting to keep these mods still up in spite of it all.
I have been thinking making copy of id games wad archive but the fact that there are about terabyte wads in total has held me back. Now I find that it's better to spend that money on external hard drive and enjoy all the Doom mods after 10 or 20 years then regret not doing it.
5-7gb and counting for me but for things of interest it's pretty small
they can do all the shady things things they want, but the modding community will keep this game alive more than bethesda thanks to the source ports.
I 90% agree with your concerns. The 10%: Bethesda isn't a person, so when you say you're cool with "everyone except Bethesda" that doesn't make sense, because most of these people are on Bethesda's payroll. Bethesda is also owned by Microsoft nowadays. I also want to talk a bit about what you said regarding id not being id anymore - id became more than a mere games company the moment that Doom and Quake were open sourced under the GPL. id is everyone in the modding community at this point, especially since it's the community that de facto owns these games nowadays. Legally speaking, of course not, but it would be impossible for MS/Bethesda to send C&Ds to mod authors past and present that use modified graphics. Those lawyer fees would be *insane*, and it would be impossible to scrub 30 years worth of WADs from the internet.
Also, have you played a WAD for Plutonia called Plutonic Visions? I think you moght enjoy it
ill take a look some time!
honestly only reason i got doom+doom ii was cuz it was free (100% discounted) and so i didnt really lose anything. but tbh i dont like many of the changes the port comes with and so preffer the 2019 one still
This whole corporation shit, it keeps on repeating itself time and time again and I have a feeling it's only going to get worse in general. From what you've stated in this video, I hope to god it doesn't happen. 30 years of having the doom community branch out the franchise through open source material would be potentially sucked dry, taken over by the corporation and ruined all because of copyright issues.
As long as there's no restrictions, i'm sticking to the idgames system.
idgames will always be the best source for sure! I cant see a world where people dont post there and instead only post on bethesda's version, unless legal stuff happened
HULK SMASH!
I think it's quite unfair to brand id as a dead, passionless zombie studio. Even if you don't agree with the direction the company has gone in there are still countless talented individuals that have contributed to a number of different products over the years. More likely than not considering it's id, there's likely to be a whole number of former fans who are working there as well. Why disparage them like that?
there can absolutely be talented people working there, its just that the brand is meaningless when it comes to Doom. Doom was made by a group of people that has nothing in common with the modern day version. No disrespect to any fellow devs!
Nah.....
If you look around you'll notice that all the great things about e. g. Doom Eternal were outsourced from freelancers.
Their level editor shows that their development pipeline is a shipwreck and they can't make anything on their own.
And ofc I've witnessed the insane length of mental gymnastics fanboys go to to justify that.
umm this is a free update to anyone who has owned DOOM on steam or other digital market places for years.
replacing the broken unity port
allowing others to upload mods easily
and releasing all the unseen assets and art at no extra costs
the only thing you can argue is they might want to introduce paid mods like fallout or Stanfield
but they still allow and dont go after free mods
and so far, they've proven with Quake 1 and 2 and somewhat doom 64 that old ID games have gotten great remasters with a loy of nice bonuses.
the assets do require payment to use, which is my main problem with what you wrote. Previously, Romero was posting these assets for free for modders, but now bethesda wants to monetize them and push modderns in a particular direction. Thanks for the comment, though, I agree with most of your post!
@@AndreaPlaysDoomyou mean shareware or?
@@AndreaPlaysDoomI'm not exactly seeing your logic here, you've always had to pay to get the Doom wads as it is.
How is this any different?
@@Edditaur Romero previously released unused assets for FREE. This is a monetized version of that. Big diff. not talking IWADs
This reminds me of why I'm really pretty glad that nobody ever bought the rights to FreeSpace and did a FreeSpace 3. The FreeSpace 2 modding community might be smaller than Doom's but it has a 25 year history, much of which could be destroyed in an instant if the FreeSpace IP passed from the rotted husk of Interplay to someone more litigious. There was genuine fear when Derek Smart considered buying the IP in the late 2000s, and not just because he's a bad game developer who makes shitty products.
also sup fellow Doom 4/5 hater. Those games, especially Eternal, are so bombastic and full of themselves they're obnoxious to experience., like the reunion tour and new album of a washed up but very rich rock band. The new album is 90 minutes long, has a glossy modern production (the deluxe edition has the demos that sound better than the studio mix because there's no pitch correction or other post-processing), flashy album art, and is a big musical nothingburger that has the surface of the original blown up to cartoonish proportions, but is hollow inside.
Doom Eternal was amazing.
Sounds like a full-fledged conspiracy, but considering how things are nowadays and how much of a conspiraschizoid I am myself, I can't say any of this is either wrong or just a reach
K so you're scared that Bethesda will start taking down modding sites forcing people to use their own mod browser. But like, they are absolutely not stupid enough to try doing that. I honestly didnt really understand this video so I went to read the thread to see if I could get some clarification and just got more confused because it's explicitly stated the ID24 standard is shared and can be used freely. Just the sprites cant which is pretty much what Doom is like anyways. The code is free but you still need the IWAD. So like, what's the big deal?
InB4 Bethesda tries to force all doom mods onto the nexus, and tries to do paid doom mods.
Great take, totally agree. I really didnt like the modern doom games with the double jumps and the neon candy loot, in my opinion Bethesda tried and failed and shouldve called the game something different. They should have no right to touch the old games, I wonder how it might affect John Romero if he wants to do another Sigil? Sigil 1 and 2 were absolutely fantastic in every detail, I was happy to support John directly but Id be less happy about Bethesda having any influence over it.
I think your concerns are spot on and I think its great you are making awareness about them to the DooM community.
Bethesdas rights over the old DooM should be nothing more than collecting royalties and being allowed to make new content under the same name, not controlling past content and trying to monopolize things like they will.
Id like to see you take on the slaughter maps and mods like Brutal DooM , the latter especially adds new challenges like imps crawling on the ceiling and free aim to deal with those things but it really doesnt change the old DooM experience (make sure turn off things like glory kills in options to keep it vanilla, easy to do) The Brutal DooM mod gives a lot of replay-ability of classic maps, for example I recently played the DooM 2 levels with the BD black edition mod and the challenge was very rewarding, barrells o' fun nearly got me but I managed to figure out a way past it :D .
If Bethesda made a new and improved version of the classic game it might encourage people to buy it and spend more time with it than the old game, without having to challenge and bully people away from the old game engine but I doubt they have the emotional intelligence to go in that direction, they probably think they did that with doom eternal etc
Love your videos you are a fantastic player to watch
I can't say brutal doom is gonna happen any time soon, but i do want to play some more slaughter some time next year since I've been making my own for the genre so I need to expand my vision :P and thanks!
@@AndreaPlaysDoom oh nice, looking forward to that
im in the add freelook camp. but im also in the ive been playing doom since dos days camp
now ive watched the video, im in the fuck bethesda camp. thanks for a great vid and some deep thoughts
This is very concerning.
Is the Kex engine open source? I do think it should be, according to the license agreement for the engine in '97/'98
@Пыльглотаю-1031 I feel like that's a violation of the terms. You edit doom, and your edit can be edited. That's what the license has always said.
if i hadn't seen this video, i'd live life thinking the only thing wrong with the new thingy was that the mouse still feels like it has weighties attached to it, because, good input that doesn't make me nauseous (on a _doom_ game, no less) is one of the greatest unsolved problems in computer science, ig,
and also just some pretty callous accessibility onboarding and default settings and ui/ux that thoroughly fuck-ing suck. comic sans would've been a better pick for their 'modern' style and it still probably wouldn't look any good with that ui designed by fcking daleks using that awful font renderer that manages to look both blurry and way too aliased and yes nigh actually unreadable for me
AUEGHGhfbsyhfcgt ughhhhhh
(haven't actually even watched two minutes yet, thought i'd check the new port out myself first and-- guh)
and why are healthpacks still green. green is way too luminescent and looks bad on the light gray packs, so why is it green stilllllll..... whyyyyyyy
just use 0000ff blueeeeee it looks so much betterrr
not at all into (actual) doom modding but hoping the new comp layer bombs lol
besides, can't the features proper just be replicated..? actually didn't zdoom already have everything that anyone could ever want and then some much too more
as for bleeding players away into bethesda's mod sharing thing-- i mean. will it? and if it does will it even survive any substancial amount of time
HOW MANY TH-cam CHANNELS DO YOU HAVE
i lost count
Intellectual property should be treated like any other form of private property. Expropriated and made public.
Cool, let's start with you then. I guess you're not gonna be first in line to donate your precious property to the less fortunate, are you?
@@IceNinja2007 I don't have any property. How many factories, do you own? Do you own giant farms worked by indentured servants?
Bethesda's leadership is obsessed with centralizing all modding of their games under their own control, to the point of making the latest versions of their engine -- _the most widely and easily modded games on the planet_ (which aren't outright Free/Libre Open Source Software) -- difficult to mod as much. (See Starfield). They've tried their Community Mods or wtf-ever thing three times now.
They are trying the same thing, just as badly, with Doom.
It's time to get Freedoom polished to a shine and sprint into a teleporter off of the Bethesda properties. Make them go bankrupt, make Microsoft shut them down, and create a void for someone else to come in.
After all, Bethesda doesn't even make RPGs anymore, just theme parks whose quests _don't even make sense_
you talking Bethesda does not have good intentions - but its actually Microsoft now, so thats a 'bad faith' multiplier....
Wow, my exile almost feels like a blessing.
Is this Microsoft being back on their Embrace-Extend-Extinguish antics?
very possible! but we'll see
Now they're double. Microsoft and Google.
tbh, does bethesda even exist? just MS now, who also owns spyro, wild.
hard to say how these companies work, im not in the AAA scene
dear god! a company which owns a franchise... wants to make money from that franchise?!?! good fucking lord! good FUCKING lord!
ignore that quite literally nothing has changed with the release of the port, but ough corpo bad
15 minute video that felt like it was 2 hours from how mind numbing it was
youre so epic and edgy bro
@@AndreaPlaysDoom thanks! i try to be!
Way too many people don't realize how much they benefit from things being free and/or open source until they aren't anymore. Copyright law is one of the single greatest strangleholds in existence on human creativity, on innovation, and on the preservation of art. Like capitalism in general, it's anti-human and anti-life.
Be my gf pls?
Your comment would definitely be more valid if it didn't come from the perspective of kindergarten socialism.
go back to 4chan please, thanks
@@AndreaPlaysDoom ;)
If she'd come at it from the perspective of high school socialism then I'm sure you would have left some enlightening remarks!!
As a longtime fan of your work for the Doom community, I am honored by this reply.
DooM community also have a toxicity and incedible levels of elitism. But otherwise you are right. Bethesda trying to hijack DooM modding is worse than that.
absolutely. Any community thats been around for as long as doom has is gonna be full of fuckers. But we're adorable little fuckers
Very childish takes on intellectual property but otherwise this video is solid.
yes, not liking corporations is childish. you're so cool and reasonable for saying such a thing! thanks for the comment
@@AndreaPlaysDoom 5 year IP rights is a stupid idea. That would not hurt corporations as much as smaller developers.
yea because if we got 5 year copyright laws, everything else in society would stay the same and not be transformed around it :P of course!
@@AndreaPlaysDoom True and the corporations would just magically dissolve and lose all their money and power of course!
I hecking love to wait 70 fucking years for stuff to become open source
tbh i really wish they just made it as good or preferably better than what GZDOOM can offer,wads like myhouse arent just gonna work on there unless somebody just downgrades it (correct if im wrong about that). i say this because gzdoom has its fair share of problems like the fact its still very dependent on singlecore which really limits the engine now. (ex. selaco runs very intensively now because of the singlecore bottleneck). it would be nice to see something that can step up the evolution of the engine, like the best thing the KEX engine wrapper can offer is that its properly multithreaded, and despite your views on corpos, it can be good if money gets involved if it means the end product is better. too bad its not the case here
the main thing is that all these ports are made for free and are better than what this corporation is offering to do, and that feels like so many people are being taken advantage of.
@@AndreaPlaysDoom yeah but are they on console? No, well not officially.
I think consoles are a dying market, but we'll see how that goes. Either way, decades of work was put into the id24 spec by a bunch of people who didnt get paid, and then a few guys got paid to "rewrite" those decades of work at the expense of free port developers, which is a major concern for me in how they will go forward
The thing about GZDoom is that there would be a whole different tangle of rights issues there, and the people who develop GZDoom aren't exactly known for being stable
They open sourced the engine not the game data