Ben Franklin, professional wordsmith, admires the language of the Declaration, but Ben Franklin, the newspaper editor, knows that even the most carefully chosen words may only represent what one man believes, when they must represent what enough men believe that they will sign their names to it. He also knows the pain the editor's marks can bring, and so Ben Franklin, the scientist and inventor, pours the soothing balm of praising another inventor's invention on the resulting scorch marks.
Indeed. This further shows contrary to what recently has become an unfortunate spreading of misinformation in America lately. The claim that the Founding Fathers weren't concerned with stopping slavery. Most if not all of them in reality hated it, as this shows. And as you pointed out, true to Franklin's character, he expressed the need to get everyone on board. And quite frankly, the Southern Colonies at this time were wholly dependent upon slave labor for their agriculture (which wasn't a legitimate claim anymore come the Civil War - but I digress), and slavery getting confronted so directly in the draft would have been too big of a divide for agreement on the document.
@@MrWolfSnack “there were a lot of slaves perfectly happy and well off with their jobs, and well treated by the landowners…” wutttt in the everloving fk is wrong with you
@MrWolfSnack I don't think it changes the moral issue that one man owning the rights of another is still vile. Sure, your own may be kind and merciful to you, but he still owns your life and your freedom. Details that show what you've demonstrated are all well and good, but let's not muddy the perception of slavery as a whole. Most men who endorsed slavery, did so out of religious vindication and treated those they owned as being beneath them, as proclaimed by 'God' to do so via the Laws written in the Old Testiment. Progressive thinking slave owners may have had their conscious about them enough to realize that mistreating their slaves was wrong, but they still lacked the stomach and fortitude to realize that any man who oppressed another's rights and freedoms, is inherently a Monster. Period.
@@MrWolfSnack Plenty of the King's subjects in the Colonies were quite happy in their position and treated quite well by the King too. So what the fuck is your point? Was it any less necessary to declare independence? Injustice is injustice and Men are to be free. If taxation without representation is oppression worth struggling to shrug off then how is chattel slavery not even more so? Are you going to rationalize Crown Rule with such vigor? Obviously not. So why do it for slavery? A far worse institution than the rule of Great Britain over the Colonies. Intellectual dishonesty at its best, or rather worst. "Get out into the real world. Talk to your elders, listen to their stories." My elders happen to be African-American and I nor any other Black person, friend and family has ever heard or read a single word about how our ancestors enjoyed slavery or would've chosen bondage over freedom.
@@hereef1 A man can be more than 1 thing. Martin Luther King can be a spearhead for civil rights. And an adulterer and hypocritical preacher. To bring one bad to discredit the good is petty and usually not fruitful conversation. However, that leaves one to be wary of how much one reveres any man. For to do that opens you to also own that mans sins. So it's best to talk specifics.
I just ADORE Stephen Dillane’s performance in this scene as Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson of course was famously thin-skinned and over sensitive to criticism of his writing, and he captures that sentiment perfectly here. The way he paces the room nervously, then sits down in a gesture meant to show relaxed calm but which is clearly forced, and then responding to comments on his writing with short phrases in a quiet monotone. This is clearly agony for him. And it’s wonderful. As an occasional writer, I have been in this situation before and this is EXACTLY how I act when people offer even mild and constructive critiques on my writing.
3:25 Benjamin Franklin the genius diplomat. He sensed that Jefferson was disappointed in them revising his document, so he changed the subject to his chair invention. Franklin complimented Jefferson on his craftsmanship, asked him questions about it to get him on a different train of thought, and by 3:45 hes back to smiling and beaming about his innovation. Well done sir.
That's why the French loved him so much. He was a people person, carefully navigating through human emotions in order to have the best image and result (something I could never do).
Pity Franklin couldn't have managed his own son as well; his son who became a Tory, went to jail in Boston rather than fight for the revolution, kept his loyalty to King George. After Independence, he moved to the UK and never looked back at his old man.
@@meeeka But both men were devastated by this. It's what they say: everything in the world has a price, in the case of Ben, he got his independence but lost his son. And in the case of William, he showed his loyalty to Britain but lost his father.
Ben Franklin was the brains behind Independence, George Washington was the face of independence, Thomas Jefferson was the author of independence... and John Adams was the voice of independence. These three actors did a marvellous job in this scene - perfectly captured Franklins diplomatic savvy, Jefferson’s sense of unease at having his work critiqued and Adams sense of purpose.
The United States Declaration of Independence was actually inspired and influenced by the widespread publication and circulation of pamphlets of "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine! Before the widespread circulation of "Common Sense", there were no Revolutionary patriots who openly advocated American Independence from British Empire! I just don't know why Thomas Paine is not considered as one of the Founders of the United States!
@@OfficialAshArcher Historically, before Common Sense no one dared speak of independence publicly. As Paine noted at the time in Crisis III, “Independence was a doctrine scarce and rare, even towards the conclusion of the year 1775…” It was merely whispered in parlor rooms, and more often denounced as traitorous. Common Sense had the effect of producing an “almost unrivaled political somersault” in transforming the attitudes in America. As Washington said, it was “working a powerful change …in the minds of many men”, not only for independence from Britain, but independence from monarchy. Gordon Wood points out a sudden and almost complete revolution in thinking towards republicanism taking place in the attitudes of the Americans in the spring of 1776.
@@OfficialAshArcher Most of the Revolutionary leaders who were in the Congress during the war rewrote their own history after the fact to fit with the myths that had been created. They scurried to lay claim on the heritage of the Declaration. Some of their memoirs contain boasts exclaiming how they supported independence before Common Sense appeared, but a quick read of what they were saying at the time refutes that. No one but Paine had the courage to stand up and proclaim it, and then to defend it in a tour de force of prose. One after another “founding father” took an opposite view of independence until Common Sense appeared. Despite John Adams’ protestations to the contrary, he never stood up and defended the necessity for independence before the appearance of Common Sense. His claim that independence was repeatedly discussed in Congress before Common Sense is his attempt to minimize Paine’s role. His dismissal of Common Sense in his memoirs as trite would be just sad if it weren’t for Pauline Maier’s use of this quote to “prove” that Common Sense should be marginalized. She even concludes from this lone quote that Congress “was already moving apace toward Independence”. Her attempts to establish Adams as the focus of all activity and wisdom requires that Paine be pushed aside, and therefore she must lay doubt on the political somersault Common Sense caused. Maier’s own facts contradict her conclusion: “But throughout 1775 every Congressional petition, address or declaration…sought a settlement of their differences with the Mother Country not Independence”. And, “Even the most radical members of Congress professed a strong preference for remaining in the empire”. And she observes that even by June of l776, the delegates “lagged behind” the people in regards to independence. Maier’s conclusion that therefore Congress was already moving apace towards independence is contradicted by facts she herself supplies. And Adams himself testifies to the importance of Common Sense in a letter in April, 1776: “…Common Sense , like a ray of revelation, has come in seasonably to clear our doubts, and to fix our choice”. Adams’ objection to Common Sense was not its call for independence, but rather its democratic foundation. Adams complains of Paine: “His plan is so democratical”. Adams knew full well the impact of Common Sense on the rapid shift towards independence, and expressed it repeatedly. His hatred for Paine, who he called the “disastrous meteor” of democracy, clouded his account of the period. It would seem that Maier falls under the same prejudice.
it's funny to think that these three geniuses are sitting in a room, reviewing the most important document in American history...and then start talking about how fun it is spinning in a swivel chair. I'm not saying that it's a completely historically accurate depiction, but it reminds you that these men, though great men, we're just dudes all the same.
Makes sense too because Franklin and Jefferson were both scientific thinkers/inventors. They'd be just the type to talk shop over something like that chair.
Dr. Franklin was the showman and politician. The French considered the Americans to be backwoodsmen. At the same time, they highly regarded Dr. Franklin for his many scientific breakthroughs and inventions. Franklin worked his way up to high society. In the series, Adams remarked that Franklin went to a taxidermist, instead of a tailor. He went about Paris wearing bearskins. It’s what the French thought of Americans. He chose to feed their stereotype. After all, the colonies in rebellion, desperately needed the help of the French. Of course we have no way of knowing, but I would not be surprised if Franklin poured compliments on Jefferson. He’s dissecting Jefferson’s writing, and I bet Jefferson, of all people, would take that seriously. At the same time, he knew they needed unity with the South. Slavery would just have to wait, or there would be no America in the first place. Adams, on the other hand, was far more direct, leading to big fights with Franklin in Europe, and the famous feud with Jefferson.
Poor Thomas doesn't like anyone editing his document. He sits across the room, like someone helpless, in the waiting room of an ER, hoping the surgery done on his loved one is not too severe.
Ironically Jefferson did not want to write the document. He thought that Adams would be the logical choice, but Adams admitted that Jefferson was a much better writer - and the delegates would hate any document that he wrote.
Plus if it was written solely by John, it would've made it easier for the detractors in Congress to discredit it because he'd already made a score of enemies from his outspokenness
Probably my favorite quote from John Adams. He gave three succinct reasons why Jefferson should write it. 1) He was a Virginian (the most populous colony at the time) 2) He was popular versus Adams who was not. 3) He was ten times better at writing than Adams.
Notice Jefferson has two different kinds of pride he expresses. When Franklin and Adams are reading the draft of the declaration, he has a stiff, very dignified sort of pride in what he has written. But when Franklin comments on the office chair, his demeanor changes to a relaxed and cheerful kind of pride, happy that an accomplished inventor like Franklin can see the genius in it.
Yankee Doodle: That's WHAT HAPPENED. This series was written from John Adams's own memoirs, and he carefully described this scene in detail. Jefferson was also a very shy and quiet man, like most epic geniuses. Adams was also Jefferson's BFF pen-pal.
I love the personality this show gave everyone, true or not. Adams was a do gooder who seemed uncontrollably pretentious. Franklin was an eccentric old man who although wise seemed completely disinterested in politics most of the time. And Jefferson who started out as a passionate but shy man who no doubt thanks to his friendship with John, became a much more assertive equally passionate figure head. If only we had more docudramas about early American history like this.
Adams was not really a do-gooder IMO. A do-gooder never would have led a congress to defy a king. Despite his bad temper and pretentiousness, he was also a talented mediator and political centrist who most of the time tried to find a balance between conservative and liberal ideas. He failed at this when his temper and imperiousness got the better of him. His worst sin is that he held grudges, a character trait that he hated about himself. We tend to focus on the failures of Adams and forget that he was a man of conviction and principle... something sorely lacking in today's politicians.
I have always wondered what kind of president Franklin would have made, had he been younger and had the opportunity. (He died at 84, the year after the constitution was ratified.)
We watched the Patriot. They definitely paused throughout the movie to tell us what was wrong about it historically, but still - hardly a very educational film. To be fair though when I was in 8th grade, this hadn't come out yet.
I loved the mini series because it really captured the humanity of the founding fathers. It did not deify them like so many of overly jingoistic pieces of media. Instead we get a clear view of both genius and the pettiness of these men. Like in this scene we can tell having his writing criticized is getting to Jefferson, he's trying to hide it but it's still clear how uncomfortable about it her is.
I agree. I am glad it showed some of the negative sides of them as well. They, we're not perfect human beings by stretch of the imagination. Adultery, lying, dirty politics, etc. But I believe they showed the good parts well
Franklin and Jefferson were some of the few non-Orthodox believers in the Congress. As a Deist, Jefferson had chosen his words according to his own beliefs. Each of Franklin and Adams struck out certain religious language that they didn't favor in order to allow the reading of the document to better fit the religious convictions of whomever was reading it, whether Deist or Orthodox. Thus, Franklin the deist strikes out 'sacred' and Adams the orthodox believer replaced Jefferson's deist term of art 'God of Nature' with the more neutral 'Creator'.
I am not an American, but I am deeply interested in American history. The United States Declaration of Independence was actually inspired and influenced by the widespread publication and circulation of pamphlets of "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine! Before the widespread circulation of "Common Sense", there were no Revolutionary patriots who openly advocated American Independence from British Empire! I just don't know why Thomas Paine is not considered as one of the Founders of the United States!
Jefferson: "I trully believe this document will set the foundations of our independence and...Mr.Franklin, are you listening?" Franklin: *"It spins!! WEEEEEEEEEEE---"*
@@blllllllllllllllllllrlrlrl7059 I was with him on the first paragraph. Lost me by the 3rd. It's like he had multiple personality disorder and one of the other personalities took over about half-way through.
Franklin’s genius is really on display in the scene, he points out not his objections but the most like the objections to the declarations wording and has the wisdom to complement the author on his chair. Brilliant
"The issue before us is independence, not emancipation." Reminds me of some advice I once received: "Answer the question asked of you no more no less."
@@edvinjohnson5382 Who were British subjects. In British colonies. Might I suggest you do a Google search. Type in "Andrew Johnson slave" He is the person primarily responsible for the institution of "perpetual slavery" in North America. He was also a former slave who happened to be a black man from Angola sold to Europeans by Muslims. Enjoy the read.
@@edvinjohnson5382 Not all of them. By the time of the framing of the Constitution Franklin fought for (but lost) the inclusion of ALL people (women and non white Europeans) as part of the document that they should all have rights. However, they needed the slave holding territories to ratify the document as well and it would have fallen apart at the time if they had included everyone. It was a compromise where the ramifications are still felt today.
Arguably the greatest writer of any head of state. Churchill certainly was very skilled, and Lincoln's Gettysburg Address may be the greatest short speech ever written, but Jefferson's skill surpasses them both.
@@jamesrawlins735 The United States Declaration of Independence was actually inspired and influenced by the widespread publication and circulation of pamphlets of "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine! Before the widespread circulation of "Common Sense", there were no Revolutionary patriots who openly advocated American Independence from British Empire! I just don't know why Thomas Paine is not considered as one of the Founders of the United States!
@@briangoldy8784 The United States Declaration of Independence was actually inspired and influenced by the widespread publication and circulation of pamphlets of "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine! Before the widespread circulation of "Common Sense", there were no Revolutionary patriots who openly advocated American Independence from British Empire! I just don't know why Thomas Paine is not considered as one of the Founders of the United States!
"Slavery is an abomination and must be loudly proclaimed as such. But, I own that neither I nor any man has any immediate solution to the problem." They knew that it was bad. But, with the number of colonists who owned slaves, better to fight one battle at a time. In this case, independence from England.
Many actually felt the problem of Slavery would solve itself, as industrial innovation would weed out Slavery over the course of a few generations. But the North developed industry far faster than the South, so rather than trying to keep up on that front, the South expanded Slavery to remain competitive in production. One of the big ironies of US history that the Founding Fathers did not (nor could they) see coming.
@@renegade637 That is an entirely different matter. Slavery in the South during the 18th and 19th Century was a matter of economics. Discrimination in the 20th and 21st Century is a matter of emotional response. There was no economical force driving discrimination through the mid 20th Century, it was entirely a matter of people believing they were better than other people. Meanwhile in the 21st, though the source of the emotion is different, the result is the same. Feeling an entire type of people are a certain way just because of the way they look, and letting that emotion create an instinctual response that black people are dangerous just because they are black. This creates a similar instinct in the police force that results in violent action rather than diffusion. There used to be a precedent in the police where because the police are trained at de-escalation, that they only use force when absolutely necessary. Somehow, somewhere along the way, that precedent has changed. Now all situations are approached with the assumption that there is imminent danger, where the life of the officer is paramount over all other considerations. Police used to risk themselves before allowing risk to fall upon others. But now, they focus entirely on reducing risk to themselves, regardless of the risk upon others. And yes, this applies to everyone, not just blacks. It is an institutional problem that must be addressed. However that instinct I mentioned earlier, where blacks are seen as more dangerous just because their black further compounds the problem. Now whenever there is a police situation, where protection of self is more important than protection of others, if a black is involved it suddenly means to approach with guns drawn, regardless of what the situation is. THAT is what the issue is. It is not about memories of Slavery, or getting even for it. It is a matter of "Please see us as people, not just a color" The sooner we acknowledge that instinct and work to weed it out, the better off we will be. As that instinct is not a matter of nature, it is a matter of what we are taught as children. And most of that teaching comes from those who lived through the fight for civil rights, and many still bitter about it. Otherwise known as indoctrination. When you are taught to see certain people differently, it becomes natural to think that way. And the more natural it feels, the more you reject any attempts to correct it, expose it, or even mention its existence.
I am not an American, but I am deeply interested in American history. The United States Declaration of Independence was actually inspired and influenced by the widespread publication and circulation of pamphlets of "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine! Before the widespread circulation of "Common Sense", there were no Revolutionary patriots who openly advocated American Independence from British Empire! I just don't know why Thomas Paine is not considered as one of the Founders of the United States!
Say what you want about his politics, but Obama was a pretty damn good writer and was, as far as politicians go today, pretty trusted amonsgst the American people, especially considering todays polarizing times. Hell... neither of the the current and previous President could barely, if at all, crack close to 50% approval, while Obama finished close to 60 %... a number I feel will be very difficult to reach again for a President in todays age, baring any type of national tragedy that might unite the nation for a few weeks (ie. Bush getting like 80% approval after 911).
while making them feel good about themselves in the process. "I noticed I struck a nerve poking at your work here. Look how amazing this other thing you made is. Isn't it awesome?"
I do love this scene. Something I didn't notice on the first watch-through of the series, is the non-verbal moments of mutual respect between Adams and Jefferson. We can see here how impressed Adams is by Jefferson's skill with the written word, and the powerful sentiment expressed within the Declaration. At 3:46 when Franklin comments "Oh, most ingenious!" regarding Jefferson's creation, note Adams' glance to Jefferson as he reads the Declaration. Similarly, in the scene where Adams gives his speech in favor of independence before the Continental Congress, note how much he moves Jefferson. Jefferson initially appears a bit downcast after Dickinson expresses caution, and a bleak outlook on the future of their colonies. Adams rallies the Congress with his vision of hope, freedom, and bright futures for their countrymen and the generations to come. Jefferson listens more intently than perhaps any other delegate, his eyes never leaving Adams as he speaks. He seems almost in awe of Adams as he joins the Congress in expressing their approval afterwards. Sorry for the TL;DR post. I really love this series, and it's especially nice to revisit at the moment. Stay safe out there, my fellow countrymen.
Adams and Jefferson also both died the same day, July 4, 1826, the 50th anniversary of the Declaration. Adams' last words were "Thomas Jefferson survives," but Jefferson had died a few hours earlier at Monticello.
That's because Jefferson and Franklin were both inventors. Franklin was more an electrical engineer, and Jefferson was more renaissance. Adams was never very mechanical, he was more legal and political; he says this to the queen of france, telling her that he focuses on those things so his descendants can do the other things.
Slavery is an abomination and must be loudly proclaimed as such. But I own that neither I nor any man has any immediate solution to the problem. Thomas Jefferson Let's stick to the subject at hand which is Independence. Benjamin Franklin I think the scene demonstrates the brilliance of these men who recognized that they should pick the battles that they could win and leave the other battles for a future time when they were ripe to be taken. How fortunate we were to have the right men doing the job at the right time. Otherwise the entire effort would have been lost.
Well stated, Bravo Zulu. I abhor those today so smugly critical of these men when the ideas they laid in this document were absolutely unheard of in their time. Nothing comes in an instant, unfortunately our society today is a combination of the simplistic and instant gratification.
Jefferson didnt believe a multi-ethnic society could work. He was scared of race war. I truly dont understand why he held this view when I'm sure he had knowledge of ancient Rome. A city in which nobles sent their children to learn at esteemed Greek schools while simultaneously holding numerous Greeks (and all other races, no discrimination) in bondage.
@@edmonddantes3640 What people also fail to consider is that all evidence at the time pointed to Slavery weeding itself out over the course of a few generations. If it was clear the problem would solve itself, then no sense aggravating the issue. What they did not consider at the time is that industrial innovation proceeded faster in the North than it did in the South, and that rather than pursuing their own innovations, the South expanded Slavery in order to remain competitive in production and trade. Then to make matters worse, when territory opened up in the West, the South felt they could have an advantage over the North, as a platoon of slaves would be fare more productive on farmland than a family of Northerners working on their own. The very idea intended to kill off Slavery over time.... only made things worse. One of the biggest unfortunate ironies of US history, and we paid a HEAVY price for it.
I wouldn’t call a guy who let six of his own children live in slavery as much of an opponent against slavery. Not to mention one that so evidently enjoyed raping young black women as much as he did.
@Chandler Burse there would have been no civil war, there would have been no Unified Colonies. The British would have made easy pickings of us in that case.
@@speakallowed8435 Im typically very individualist, but I've learned that one cannot deny the tribal persuasions of the human condition. I think we took a path that will have significant growing pains to get humanity as a whole to move past race. It's not that minorites themselves harm society, it is a currently inevitable dynamic that can happen irregardless of who the majority and minority is.
@@edvinjohnson5382 they explained that slavery part in the video. The founding fathers where basiclly avoiding the issue hoping it was go away eventually, but it culminated in the civil warm
@@edvinjohnson5382 that's the thing he wrote all men alll men are created equal so that in the future when the right time comes slavery can be challenged in the court but unfortunately the south didn't budge and the United States entered its deadliest conflict in its history
I haven't seen the series, but I'm just impressed with the detail of the lighting. Whether it's real or they faked it, it's filmed as if it's using natural lighting. Sometimes you've got the sun shining into the room, sometimes a cloud goes over and casts it in shade. I don't think I'd notice/care if they'd lit the room artificial and kept it constant, but noticing the changes just adds another layer of immersion.
There are some on the right who believe that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. However, that's not really true when you look at the historical evidence. They may have been devoted to the Christian faith as individuals, but it was never their intention to create a theocracy, or to ascribe any kind of religious motivation to what they were doing. Indeed, to provide a central role for religion would have been a curiously European way of doing things, in their minds, and they were definitely trying to avoid that.
@TheSmithersy : No, of course they weren't trying to create an atheist nation. Atheism was virtually inconceivable among respectable people at the time, who were generally God-fearing. However, they were trying to be as secular, or at least as non-denominational, as possible, for precisely the reasons that you stated. In Europe, official or state churches were the norm, and the Founding Fathers wanted to create a nation with religious freedom and a separation between church and state. In other words, they believed that faith was primarily a matter for individuals and not institutions, especially not rulers or governments.
Most of the founders were secular humanists. That's why they didn't want religion anywhere near government. They knew the folly of a tyrannical church with governmental powers.
I love seeing how hard the critique of his words are to Jefferson. He clearly and obviously poured much of himself into the document, and even the most tactful editor would be hard to hear.
I love how none of his issues with the first draft were over the quality or clarity of the document, but rather with making Jefferson’s claims less bold and more palatable to his peers.
It astounds me that these men created such an amazing system of government and yet didn't put in a limit for how many years a congressman or senator could stay in office.
Washington set the precedent of stepping away after two terms, but that precedent only applied to the Executive, as the Legislature held no such standard. Further, the balance of power between the Executive and Legislature became a tug of war that would go back and forth over several generations. Sometimes the President holding sway of a capitulating Congress... and other times Congress and Captain's of Industry strong-arming fairly weak President's... back and forth.
Two different documents, written at different times, and by two different groups of people. I will grant that many of them were the same, but also many were different. The career politician did not exist at that time, indeed it took nearly a century before they started appearing.
Of course it should not astound - it was done by committee. Which means, good soul, compromises were made and everyone was more concerned about more immediate questions than the Legislative Branch - more consumed by the question of "how much power should the Federal Government actually have...?". There was a not-inconsiderable amount of shove to loaning any central authority power after, well... what had just been happening in the last couple decades of their time. Thus the system of government was a product of its time... as well as the failure of a system which had come before.
The actors for Adams and Jefferson are brilliant, virtually perfect. Jefferson hated to have his document edited, but more so by the rest of Congress than by these two, who he respected. Jefferson actually included several references to the evils of slavery in his Declaration, but Congress had them removed. When Virginia ceded territory north and west of the Ohio River to form a new state (Ohio), he put a motion before Congress to prohibit any new states from having slaves. It lost by one vote. If not for that vote, the Civil War might have been avoided.
Principle and idealism feel like the same thing but are quite different in fact. In the declaration, practical principles overcame Jefferson's high flying idealism for the most part. It's a lesson he learned later in life.
Which is ironic because he himself was a slave-owner and had a sexual relationship with one of his slaves, an act that we would recognize today as coercive rape. Like Adams said in a later episode, the man was a walking contradiction.
Kori Jenkins it's too expensive compared to the employable benefit. Also, colleges are up to their necks in snowflakes, and we're not talking about snowstorms. Ask the University of Missouri who lost 1000's of students after they let the snowflakes have an extended meltdown.
@Brad Watson This is all tommyrot. Franklin, at the time, was a deist, Jefferson was actually a Unitarian, although he never joined that church, and Adams was a lifelong member of the Congregationalist Church.
Benjamin Franklin, Founding Father, polymath, one of America's greatest political figures. Also Benjamin Franklin in a swivel chair: OH MOST INGENIUS! I'll try spinning, that's a good trick.
One of my grandfathers, a Col. James Clarke, invented a surveyor's wheel and presented it to Mr. Jefferson at Monticello. I have a copy of the letter he sent upon receipt of the device. He was well pleased and used it often. Jefferson loved new inventions.
@@KazumiKiguma Aye. Too much trouble to list off how many greats between my ancestors and me. Always easier to just list them as great-grandfather something or other.
“Slavery is an abomination and must be loudly proclaimed as such, but I own that I nor any other man has any immediate solution to the problem.” -Thomas Jefferson *to the people that think America was founded to protect slavery.*
@Flávio Sousa Franklin himself was a staunch abolitionist, Jefferson blamed the brits for bringing the institution of slavery to the US, but Jeffersons major failing, and the failure of the founding fathers, was that they didn't solve the slavery question until a bloody Civil War was needed to solve it for them
@@dogguy8603 Oh the founding fathers were well aware of the evils of slavery but they needed thirteen weak colonies to stay united to survive, a significant number of influential people in those colonies owned slaves, without their support they stood no chance at all. Winning the rebellion was more pressing than solving the slavery question (at the time). Yes, unfortunately, it took 80 years and a horrific civil war to settle it.
The ONLY people that thought America was founded to protect slavery were the fucking racist, slave-owning DEMOCRATS .. Republican John Adams and Republican Benjamin Franklin hated slavery, as did all of the signers outside of South Carolina, North Carolina and Georgia ..
@@bradhartliep879 oh trust me i know, the south was the only reason they allowed slavery and still was the most loyal to Britain during the revolution, i still, just wish they solved the slavery question
@@brendafranciose7487trump fought to keep our border closed, Biden opened it wide up and is getting us into all sorts of wars. Do not even try to equate the amazing leadership of trump to that senile clown.
As a writing student, this scene does a great job of showing how the editing process should go. The editors (Hamilton and Franklin) make changes that are meant to strengthen what the document is saying, while not changing the meaning and intent Jefferson had.
WIlkinson is incredible as Franklin and the dynamics happening here between the three feels so authentic. I can feel the sinking spirit of Jefferson as this gets dissected.
An amazing thing about this series that I overlooked when I first saw it was the reconstruction of the Northeastern and Mid-Atlantic American accents as linguistic anthropologists believe it was spoken at the time. Notice the peculiar inflection Jefferson uses - the pronunciation of certain vowels. This accent no longer exists, but is hypothesized to be the way he (and others) would have spoken.
@Michael Martin so in other words, yes? Btw, Britain wanted to abolish slavery. So I don't think Southern states would've felt at home back in that "fold."
@@jonathanalpart7812 Britain had yet entirely dissolve ownership, and at the time was ambivalent on the issue as to the resolution of the issue. It was due to the persuasive and tireless efforts of people like William Wilberforce that dealt slavery the blow that led to its deserved end. They didn't outlaw the practice fully until 1833.
@@hippo11222 Some British would have you believe Britain never participated in slavery, or that slave holders in North America prior to 1776 were not British.
This movie along with others of significant historical reference, Washington, Lincoln and Selma, should be made required viewing in grade schools, high school levels and upon the beginning of the required studies for citizenship.
Some of the most knowledgeable and articulate people on our system of government that l've met, are those who completed the process for legal immigration into our Country. It should be the same standards taught in our schools.
Great, great, great show....a must for your children that way they see the sacrifice that our fathers had to endure and maybe have American fall in love with America once again....John Adams is one of my heroes
I can relate to Jefferson, it sucks when other people are critiquing work you put so much time into. I don't think I would've been as polite as him though, I would've smacked the gout right out of Franklin's leg.
*ffjsb* Indeed, Jefferson had as much respect for Franklin as any man he'd ever met. Upon meeting new acquaintances after becoming ambassador to France, Jefferson was often met with the question "It is you, Sir, who replace Doctor Franklin?", to which Jefferson responded, "no one can replace him, Sir; I am only his successor."
@@victorkong82 - "I know what it's like to have your work held up to criticism... It hurts..." Lots of things hurt. Threatening people with violence because they hurt your feelings or make you uncomfortable is very childish. Im a janitor that mostly does floor care. I take pride in my work and how my floors end up looking, but Im not perfect. Nobody is. If I were to let my ego get in the way and not allow people to criticize my work, not only would I not improve in my craft, but I wouldnt have a job for long. Art/writing works the same way. Nobody likes to work with somebody who refuses to accept criticism. Its just juvenile and ultimately creates inferior products.
I think this is a great representation of who jefferson really was (assuming he is the man in the corner). He really just didnt know of a way to live without slavery. Even tho he owned slaves he wasnt thrilles about the institution of slavery as a whole
I wouldn't say he didn't know a way to "live without it," but he didn't have a realistic solution to the hole his ancestors put him in in terms of slavery. He was born a slave owner himself, but in fairness he did get the ball rolling for the civil rights of essentially many generations of unborn people in North America, and arguably beyond. No independence, no civil war, no emancipation and no chance at the mountaintop. He was one of the most important intellectuals in the history of the West, but also a human being subject to flaws and shortcomings like the rest of us.
it is one of the big unfortunate ironies of US history Many of the founding fathers felt the issue of Slavery would resolve itself, as growing innovation in industry would make Slavery dwindle down to nothing over the course of a few generations. What they didn't consider was, the North grew industrial power far faster than the South, and the South ended up having to expand Slavery in order to remain competitive. Then to make matters worse, when territory in the West opened up, the South saw they could have an advantage, as a family of Northerners building farmland could never keep up with Southerners and a platoon of Slaves. The very thing intended to weed out Slavery only made it worse. And we paid a HEAVY price for it.
God fearing men who sat down for hours filling their hearts with free hopes and action! They immersed themselves in these ideas like musician's with their compositions!
Ben Franklin, professional wordsmith, admires the language of the Declaration, but Ben Franklin, the newspaper editor, knows that even the most carefully chosen words may only represent what one man believes, when they must represent what enough men believe that they will sign their names to it. He also knows the pain the editor's marks can bring, and so Ben Franklin, the scientist and inventor, pours the soothing balm of praising another inventor's invention on the resulting scorch marks.
Indeed. This further shows contrary to what recently has become an unfortunate spreading of misinformation in America lately. The claim that the Founding Fathers weren't concerned with stopping slavery. Most if not all of them in reality hated it, as this shows.
And as you pointed out, true to Franklin's character, he expressed the need to get everyone on board. And quite frankly, the Southern Colonies at this time were wholly dependent upon slave labor for their agriculture (which wasn't a legitimate claim anymore come the Civil War - but I digress), and slavery getting confronted so directly in the draft would have been too big of a divide for agreement on the document.
Here, here! Very well said.
@@MrWolfSnack “there were a lot of slaves perfectly happy and well off with their jobs, and well treated by the landowners…” wutttt in the everloving fk is wrong with you
@MrWolfSnack I don't think it changes the moral issue that one man owning the rights of another is still vile. Sure, your own may be kind and merciful to you, but he still owns your life and your freedom.
Details that show what you've demonstrated are all well and good, but let's not muddy the perception of slavery as a whole. Most men who endorsed slavery, did so out of religious vindication and treated those they owned as being beneath them, as proclaimed by 'God' to do so via the Laws written in the Old Testiment.
Progressive thinking slave owners may have had their conscious about them enough to realize that mistreating their slaves was wrong, but they still lacked the stomach and fortitude to realize that any man who oppressed another's rights and freedoms, is inherently a Monster. Period.
@@MrWolfSnack Plenty of the King's subjects in the Colonies were quite happy in their position and treated quite well by the King too. So what the fuck is your point? Was it any less necessary to declare independence? Injustice is injustice and Men are to be free. If taxation without representation is oppression worth struggling to shrug off then how is chattel slavery not even more so? Are you going to rationalize Crown Rule with such vigor? Obviously not. So why do it for slavery? A far worse institution than the rule of Great Britain over the Colonies. Intellectual dishonesty at its best, or rather worst. "Get out into the real world. Talk to your elders, listen to their stories." My elders happen to be African-American and I nor any other Black person, friend and family has ever heard or read a single word about how our ancestors enjoyed slavery or would've chosen bondage over freedom.
"I was so down with Revolutions, I invented the swivel chair" -Thomas Jefferson
EPIC RAP BATTLES OF HISTORY!!!!!
THOMAS JEFFERSON!! VS!!! FREDRICK DOUGLASS!!!!!
@@grodo3024 Yes!!
ERB, nice
@Brad Watson That went off the rails pretty quick.
@Brad Watson See kids, this is what happens when you roll blunts laced with DMT in pages from the Bible.
Dude wrote one of the most important documents of the Enlightenment and still had time to invent the office chair... BALLER!
Well you can't write shit if you're constantly squirming in your chair because of butt cramps now can you??
All with the approval of Ben Franklin hinself
You guys when you post about Jefferson always leave out the part about him being a pedophile and a rapist. You can look up Sally Hemings.
@@hereef1
A man can be more than 1 thing. Martin Luther King can be a spearhead for civil rights. And an adulterer and hypocritical preacher. To bring one bad to discredit the good is petty and usually not fruitful conversation. However, that leaves one to be wary of how much one reveres any man. For to do that opens you to also own that mans sins. So it's best to talk specifics.
@@hereef1 How old was Muhammeds brides?
Adams: "I'll defend every word."
Jefferson: "It's what I believe."
Franklin: "LOOK AT ME I'M SPINNING LOLZ"
Keeping it light for such a serious moment
@Brad Watson Yeah, your nuts dude lol
@Brad Watson butthead
It's like a Homer Simpson response to the moment LOL
@Brad Watson Brad, I appreciate the information, it is quite helpful. Sometimes, people just get cocky with you.
I just ADORE Stephen Dillane’s performance in this scene as Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson of course was famously thin-skinned and over sensitive to criticism of his writing, and he captures that sentiment perfectly here. The way he paces the room nervously, then sits down in a gesture meant to show relaxed calm but which is clearly forced, and then responding to comments on his writing with short phrases in a quiet monotone. This is clearly agony for him. And it’s wonderful.
As an occasional writer, I have been in this situation before and this is EXACTLY how I act when people offer even mild and constructive critiques on my writing.
someone needs to make a meme of this, like "when the teacher says 'we're gonna do peer-editing'"
COME WITH ME, AND TAKE THIS FREEDOM!
Jefferson in this scene is me when I give my essays to someone to read over.
This comment sucks. (Sorry, just wanted to see how you'd react.)
Well said
3:25 Benjamin Franklin the genius diplomat. He sensed that Jefferson was disappointed in them revising his document, so he changed the subject to his chair invention. Franklin complimented Jefferson on his craftsmanship, asked him questions about it to get him on a different train of thought, and by 3:45 hes back to smiling and beaming about his innovation. Well done sir.
That's why the French loved him so much. He was a people person, carefully navigating through human emotions in order to have the best image and result (something I could never do).
Dr Franklin was a scientist and inventor himself. Would kill to get his approval
Pity Franklin couldn't have managed his own son as well; his son who became a Tory, went to jail in Boston rather than fight for the revolution, kept his loyalty to King George. After Independence, he moved to the UK and never looked back at his old man.
@@meeeka But both men were devastated by this. It's what they say: everything in the world has a price, in the case of Ben, he got his independence but lost his son. And in the case of William, he showed his loyalty to Britain but lost his father.
michelle stein-evers frankl it’s why many call the revolution the first civil war...it tore apart communities and families
We just lost Tom Wilkinson 😢 What a robbery. Rest in peace, sir.
Do you find him?
If anyone was born to portray Ben Franklin, it was him.
@@steveanderson8137 I would also suggest Howard da Silva.
Ironically enough, he portrayed major characters on both sides of the Revolutionary War. Franklin and General Cornwallis
Ben Franklin was the brains behind Independence, George Washington was the face of independence, Thomas Jefferson was the author of independence... and John Adams was the voice of independence.
These three actors did a marvellous job in this scene - perfectly captured Franklins diplomatic savvy, Jefferson’s sense of unease at having his work critiqued and Adams sense of purpose.
The United States Declaration of Independence was actually inspired and influenced by the widespread publication and circulation of pamphlets of "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine! Before the widespread circulation of "Common Sense", there were no Revolutionary patriots who openly advocated American Independence from British Empire! I just don't know why Thomas Paine is not considered as one of the Founders of the United States!
@@powerfulstrong5673 yes I know! Paine was amazing too!
@@OfficialAshArcher Historically, before Common Sense no one dared speak of independence publicly. As Paine noted at the time in Crisis III, “Independence was a doctrine scarce and rare, even towards the conclusion of the year 1775…” It was merely whispered in parlor rooms, and more often denounced as traitorous. Common Sense had the effect of producing an “almost unrivaled political somersault” in transforming the attitudes in America. As Washington said, it was “working a powerful change …in the minds of many men”, not only for independence from Britain, but independence from monarchy. Gordon Wood points out a sudden and almost complete revolution in thinking towards republicanism taking place in the attitudes of the Americans in the spring of 1776.
@@OfficialAshArcher Most of the Revolutionary leaders who were in the Congress during the war rewrote their own history after the fact to fit with the myths that had been created. They scurried to lay claim on the heritage of the Declaration. Some of their memoirs contain boasts exclaiming how they supported independence before Common Sense appeared, but a quick read of what they were saying at the time refutes that. No one but Paine had the courage to stand up and proclaim it, and then to defend it in a tour de force of prose. One after another “founding father” took an opposite view of independence until Common Sense appeared.
Despite John Adams’ protestations to the contrary, he never stood up and defended the necessity for independence before the appearance of Common Sense. His claim that independence was repeatedly discussed in Congress before Common Sense is his attempt to minimize Paine’s role. His dismissal of Common Sense in his memoirs as trite would be just sad if it weren’t for Pauline Maier’s use of this quote to “prove” that Common Sense should be marginalized. She even concludes from this lone quote that Congress “was already moving apace toward Independence”. Her attempts to establish Adams as the focus of all activity and wisdom requires that Paine be pushed aside, and therefore she must lay doubt on the political somersault Common Sense caused.
Maier’s own facts contradict her conclusion: “But throughout 1775 every Congressional petition, address or declaration…sought a settlement of their differences with the Mother Country not Independence”. And, “Even the most radical members of Congress professed a strong preference for remaining in the empire”. And she observes that even by June of l776, the delegates “lagged behind” the people in regards to independence. Maier’s conclusion that therefore Congress was already moving apace towards independence is contradicted by facts she herself supplies.
And Adams himself testifies to the importance of Common Sense in a letter in April, 1776: “…Common Sense , like a ray of revelation, has come in seasonably to clear our doubts, and to fix our choice”. Adams’ objection to Common Sense was not its call for independence, but rather its democratic foundation. Adams complains of Paine: “His plan is so democratical”. Adams knew full well the impact of Common Sense on the rapid shift towards independence, and expressed it repeatedly. His hatred for Paine, who he called the “disastrous meteor” of democracy, clouded his account of the period. It would seem that Maier falls under the same prejudice.
This is well said sir... very very well said.
it's funny to think that these three geniuses are sitting in a room, reviewing the most important document in American history...and then start talking about how fun it is spinning in a swivel chair. I'm not saying that it's a completely historically accurate depiction, but it reminds you that these men, though great men, we're just dudes all the same.
They were dude’s fighting for what was right 🇺🇸
Makes sense too because Franklin and Jefferson were both scientific thinkers/inventors. They'd be just the type to talk shop over something like that chair.
Dr. Franklin was the showman and politician. The French considered the Americans to be backwoodsmen. At the same time, they highly regarded Dr. Franklin for his many scientific breakthroughs and inventions.
Franklin worked his way up to high society. In the series, Adams remarked that Franklin went to a taxidermist, instead of a tailor. He went about Paris wearing bearskins. It’s what the French thought of Americans. He chose to feed their stereotype. After all, the colonies in rebellion, desperately needed the help of the French.
Of course we have no way of knowing, but I would not be surprised if Franklin poured compliments on Jefferson. He’s dissecting Jefferson’s writing, and I bet Jefferson, of all people, would take that seriously. At the same time, he knew they needed unity with the South. Slavery would just have to wait, or there would be no America in the first place.
Adams, on the other hand, was far more direct, leading to big fights with Franklin in Europe, and the famous feud with Jefferson.
I think Jefferson invented it?
@@JnEricsonx yeah i know i just thought it was funny how they just start chilling talking shop
"For America, this was the day I gave them their freedom. For me, it was the day I invented the swivel chair." -M. Bison Jefferson
SimulacraMan that's hysterical
Jefferson invented the chair before that. They already had the recliner-chair, and the rotational chair; he just combined them and put it on rollers.
This is an extremely strange confluence of references. But it made me chuckle, so kudos.
And RIP Raoul Julia.
GAME! OVER!
@@StefanWB God Tier reference, 10/10
Poor Thomas doesn't like anyone editing his document. He sits across the room, like someone helpless, in the waiting room of an ER, hoping the surgery done on his loved one is not too severe.
Ironically Jefferson did not want to write the document. He thought that Adams would be the logical choice, but Adams admitted that Jefferson was a much better writer - and the delegates would hate any document that he wrote.
@@jamesrawlins735 Thank what gods there are or may be for humility.
Plus if it was written solely by John, it would've made it easier for the detractors in Congress to discredit it because he'd already made a score of enemies from his outspokenness
Probably my favorite quote from John Adams. He gave three succinct reasons why Jefferson should write it.
1) He was a Virginian (the most populous colony at the time)
2) He was popular versus Adams who was not.
3) He was ten times better at writing than Adams.
@@shawnn7502 :I'm obnoxious and disliked did you know that, sir"
I love how Jefferson is just a little bit salty that Franklin is changing his masterpiece
Jefferson is sensitive about his writings tho, which is why he went like that.
They wanted Franklin to write the document, but he wasn’t open to peer review. He suggested Jefferson should write it.
I like to think the foundational ideas of the American constitution were thought of over a few pipes of cannabis😄
In a deleted scene they show Jefferson and Franklin drawing a treasure map in invisible ink on the back of the Declaration of Independence.
😂😂😂
Notice Jefferson has two different kinds of pride he expresses.
When Franklin and Adams are reading the draft of the declaration, he has a stiff, very dignified sort of pride in what he has written. But when Franklin comments on the office chair, his demeanor changes to a relaxed and cheerful kind of pride, happy that an accomplished inventor like Franklin can see the genius in it.
Best comment
"We hold these truths to be... you know, you know the thing"
"God save the queen, man"
That was the first draft.
@@crederulesHe would know, he was there to read it
"That was like, over 200 years ago, Jack."
fuck, this is a meme now.😆🤣😂
I like how Jefferson is just slouched in the corner and kind of “meh” about the whole thing.
It's historically documented that Jefferson habitually sat that way, slouching in a chair.
@Darya Khan john adams hbo
The original unintended millennial
Yankee Doodle he reminds me of a moody, artsy genius
Yankee Doodle: That's WHAT HAPPENED.
This series was written from John Adams's own memoirs, and he carefully described this scene in detail.
Jefferson was also a very shy and quiet man, like most epic geniuses.
Adams was also Jefferson's BFF pen-pal.
I love the personality this show gave everyone, true or not. Adams was a do gooder who seemed uncontrollably pretentious. Franklin was an eccentric old man who although wise seemed completely disinterested in politics most of the time. And Jefferson who started out as a passionate but shy man who no doubt thanks to his friendship with John, became a much more assertive equally passionate figure head.
If only we had more docudramas about early American history like this.
Adams was not really a do-gooder IMO. A do-gooder never would have led a congress to defy a king. Despite his bad temper and pretentiousness, he was also a talented mediator and political centrist who most of the time tried to find a balance between conservative and liberal ideas. He failed at this when his temper and imperiousness got the better of him. His worst sin is that he held grudges, a character trait that he hated about himself. We tend to focus on the failures of Adams and forget that he was a man of conviction and principle... something sorely lacking in today's politicians.
@@rcreynolds6186 very fair assessment!
I have always wondered what kind of president Franklin would have made, had he been younger and had the opportunity. (He died at 84, the year after the constitution was ratified.)
Imagine this scene represented now by SJW. So glad this movie exist
@@ISIO-GeorgeI think he would have maintained an exciting executive residence, resplendent with interns. Dude got around like a record.
Impressive that the same actor has successfully played Cornwallis and Franklin
Mickey Bitsko and Reverdy Johnson as well
Mickey Bitsko sgreed
Tomas Jefferson and Stannis Baratheon
"It's a HORSE blanket."
'Stannis Baratheon'
I just realized that now...
The actor who player Jefferson was amazing in this scene
none other than the mannis himself
The one true king.
He had a claim and he pressed it
The casting in this mini-series was brilliant.
Right?! And can we talk about David Morse as George Washington? It’s literally perfect.
This mini-series should be required viewing in every middle and /or high school in America.
People graduate from our inferior public schools knowing nothing about their own history.
We watched it in an AP History class in high school and I'm very glad we did
my high school saw some scenes of it
@@brandonflorida1092lol.. you voted for the idiots who cut school funding
We watched the Patriot. They definitely paused throughout the movie to tell us what was wrong about it historically, but still - hardly a very educational film. To be fair though when I was in 8th grade, this hadn't come out yet.
HE REALLY DID INVENT THE SWIVEL CHAIR
Yep and here’s proof
th-cam.com/video/dQw4w9WgXcQ/w-d-xo.html
why are you here did your teacher send you this link?!?!??!
@Elijah Abu-Sanu naw fool
i have this for a history assignment
"Self-evident?"
"Self-evident..."
"Self-evident."
Self what?
@Brad Watson Well alrighty then
@Brad Watson sir, please take your medication
@Brad Watson shut up bot
Straight line?
Straight line.
I love the understated “well that’s what I believe”.
There's a theory that Jefferson was autistic, and that it accounts for his "I don't have enough energy to argue about anything" vibe.
The casting for this program was beyond superb.
I loved the mini series because it really captured the humanity of the founding fathers. It did not deify them like so many of overly jingoistic pieces of media. Instead we get a clear view of both genius and the pettiness of these men. Like in this scene we can tell having his writing criticized is getting to Jefferson, he's trying to hide it but it's still clear how uncomfortable about it her is.
I agree. I am glad it showed some of the negative sides of them as well. They, we're not perfect human beings by stretch of the imagination. Adultery, lying, dirty politics, etc. But I believe they showed the good parts well
Franklin: “Self evident??”
Jefferson: Yeah whatever 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🙎♂️🙎♂️🙎♂️
Franklin and Jefferson were some of the few non-Orthodox believers in the Congress. As a Deist, Jefferson had chosen his words according to his own beliefs. Each of Franklin and Adams struck out certain religious language that they didn't favor in order to allow the reading of the document to better fit the religious convictions of whomever was reading it, whether Deist or Orthodox. Thus, Franklin the deist strikes out 'sacred' and Adams the orthodox believer replaced Jefferson's deist term of art 'God of Nature' with the more neutral 'Creator'.
@Brad Watson damm dude, you should be a History teacher, professor. Like seriously.
@Brad Watson you had me in the first half
It's like a band working on lyrics. Jefferson is the moody, artistic genius, and Franklin is the more pragmatic dude.
Does that make Adams the Ringo or the George of this "band?"
Franklin looks more like Lennon in looks.
I love the face that I was gonna respond about the Beatles and found people already have! Shows how great they are
@@nb2008ncGeorge Harrison was a genius songwriter
When the teacher tells the class to pass your rough draft to your neighbor so they can grade it.
Or when the teacher revises your paper in front of the whole class to set an example. __*Yikes*__
The American founding fathers were just brilliant. Their brilliance and vision and wisdom is certainly self evident
I am not an American, but I am deeply interested in American history. The United States Declaration of Independence was actually inspired and influenced by the widespread publication and circulation of pamphlets of "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine! Before the widespread circulation of "Common Sense", there were no Revolutionary patriots who openly advocated American Independence from British Empire! I just don't know why Thomas Paine is not considered as one of the Founders of the United States!
Of course! 👍🏻
Jefferson: "I trully believe this document will set the foundations of our independence and...Mr.Franklin, are you listening?"
Franklin: *"It spins!! WEEEEEEEEEEE---"*
Benjamin Franklin is truly a wholesome person, that's why i adore him so much.
@Brad Watson did you turn insane whilst writing your comment??
@@blllllllllllllllllllrlrlrl7059 I was with him on the first paragraph. Lost me by the 3rd. It's like he had multiple personality disorder and one of the other personalities took over about half-way through.
The natural lighting from the sun in this scene as it goes behind the clouds and emerges again is such a nice touch.
I'm swiveling around in my chair and give thanks to Jefferson for it.
Franklin’s genius is really on display in the scene, he points out not his objections but the most like the objections to the declarations wording and has the wisdom to complement the author on his chair. Brilliant
"The issue before us is independence, not emancipation."
Reminds me of some advice I once received:
"Answer the question asked of you no more no less."
These men are of a different calibre than of what we have today!
Yeah they were, they were slave owners.
@@edvinjohnson5382
Who were British subjects.
In British colonies.
Might I suggest you do a Google search.
Type in "Andrew Johnson slave"
He is the person primarily responsible for the institution of "perpetual slavery" in North America.
He was also a former slave who happened to be a black man from Angola sold to Europeans by Muslims.
Enjoy the read.
@@edvinjohnson5382 Not all of them. By the time of the framing of the Constitution Franklin fought for (but lost) the inclusion of ALL people (women and non white Europeans) as part of the document that they should all have rights. However, they needed the slave holding territories to ratify the document as well and it would have fallen apart at the time if they had included everyone. It was a compromise where the ramifications are still felt today.
@@dan_hitchman007 lol
nice revisionist history, they were garbage slave owners who raped the women they owned as property
I doubt that, they were just in a very powerful position to enforce their ideas.
Jefferson was a very young man to have drafted such a critical writing. A true sign of his gifts.
Arguably the greatest writer of any head of state. Churchill certainly was very skilled, and Lincoln's Gettysburg Address may be the greatest short speech ever written, but Jefferson's skill surpasses them both.
@@jamesrawlins735 These Men are Given to us by God Almighty........Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Lincoln,
He was 33 not a very young man..
@@jamesrawlins735 The United States Declaration of Independence was actually inspired and influenced by the widespread publication and circulation of pamphlets of "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine! Before the widespread circulation of "Common Sense", there were no Revolutionary patriots who openly advocated American Independence from British Empire! I just don't know why Thomas Paine is not considered as one of the Founders of the United States!
@@briangoldy8784 The United States Declaration of Independence was actually inspired and influenced by the widespread publication and circulation of pamphlets of "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine! Before the widespread circulation of "Common Sense", there were no Revolutionary patriots who openly advocated American Independence from British Empire! I just don't know why Thomas Paine is not considered as one of the Founders of the United States!
"Slavery is an abomination and must be loudly proclaimed as such. But, I own that neither I nor any man has any immediate solution to the problem."
They knew that it was bad. But, with the number of colonists who owned slaves, better to fight one battle at a time. In this case, independence from England.
Many actually felt the problem of Slavery would solve itself, as industrial innovation would weed out Slavery over the course of a few generations. But the North developed industry far faster than the South, so rather than trying to keep up on that front, the South expanded Slavery to remain competitive in production. One of the big ironies of US history that the Founding Fathers did not (nor could they) see coming.
@@k1productions87 Hm. It's too bad BLM can't see that....or, actually, choose not to.
@@renegade637 That is an entirely different matter. Slavery in the South during the 18th and 19th Century was a matter of economics. Discrimination in the 20th and 21st Century is a matter of emotional response.
There was no economical force driving discrimination through the mid 20th Century, it was entirely a matter of people believing they were better than other people.
Meanwhile in the 21st, though the source of the emotion is different, the result is the same. Feeling an entire type of people are a certain way just because of the way they look, and letting that emotion create an instinctual response that black people are dangerous just because they are black. This creates a similar instinct in the police force that results in violent action rather than diffusion.
There used to be a precedent in the police where because the police are trained at de-escalation, that they only use force when absolutely necessary. Somehow, somewhere along the way, that precedent has changed. Now all situations are approached with the assumption that there is imminent danger, where the life of the officer is paramount over all other considerations.
Police used to risk themselves before allowing risk to fall upon others. But now, they focus entirely on reducing risk to themselves, regardless of the risk upon others. And yes, this applies to everyone, not just blacks. It is an institutional problem that must be addressed. However that instinct I mentioned earlier, where blacks are seen as more dangerous just because their black further compounds the problem. Now whenever there is a police situation, where protection of self is more important than protection of others, if a black is involved it suddenly means to approach with guns drawn, regardless of what the situation is.
THAT is what the issue is. It is not about memories of Slavery, or getting even for it. It is a matter of "Please see us as people, not just a color"
The sooner we acknowledge that instinct and work to weed it out, the better off we will be. As that instinct is not a matter of nature, it is a matter of what we are taught as children. And most of that teaching comes from those who lived through the fight for civil rights, and many still bitter about it. Otherwise known as indoctrination. When you are taught to see certain people differently, it becomes natural to think that way.
And the more natural it feels, the more you reject any attempts to correct it, expose it, or even mention its existence.
They didn’t think slavery was ideal, but they weren’t all out abolitionists either. Abigail Adams was though, and this show depicts that pretty well.
two of three of the people in the room owned slaves at this point, some of whom they were the parents of
1:17 a statement that quite possibly sums up how many of the founders would feel if they could see America, and its history, today.
This dialogue is excellently realistic. I can really imagine it being this way.
Jefferson looks like a student awaiting grades on a thesis.
Still, it is one of the most key documents ever written...along with that chair.
This whole miniseries is amazing. Phenomenal.
Name one politician alive today who could write this way let alone be trusted to do it.
I am not an American, but I am deeply interested in American history. The United States Declaration of Independence was actually inspired and influenced by the widespread publication and circulation of pamphlets of "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine! Before the widespread circulation of "Common Sense", there were no Revolutionary patriots who openly advocated American Independence from British Empire! I just don't know why Thomas Paine is not considered as one of the Founders of the United States!
Say what you want about his politics, but Obama was a pretty damn good writer and was, as far as politicians go today, pretty trusted amonsgst the American people, especially considering todays polarizing times. Hell... neither of the the current and previous President could barely, if at all, crack close to 50% approval, while Obama finished close to 60 %... a number I feel will be very difficult to reach again for a President in todays age, baring any type of national tragedy that might unite the nation for a few weeks (ie. Bush getting like 80% approval after 911).
Obama would be the closest president to emulate these great founders.
The Obamas and The Clinton's in a room
Good ol’ Franklin, always good at guiding people where he wanted them
while making them feel good about themselves in the process. "I noticed I struck a nerve poking at your work here. Look how amazing this other thing you made is. Isn't it awesome?"
"self evident." The two most important words in human history.
I do love this scene. Something I didn't notice on the first watch-through of the series, is the non-verbal moments of mutual respect between Adams and Jefferson. We can see here how impressed Adams is by Jefferson's skill with the written word, and the powerful sentiment expressed within the Declaration. At 3:46 when Franklin comments "Oh, most ingenious!" regarding Jefferson's creation, note Adams' glance to Jefferson as he reads the Declaration.
Similarly, in the scene where Adams gives his speech in favor of independence before the Continental Congress, note how much he moves Jefferson. Jefferson initially appears a bit downcast after Dickinson expresses caution, and a bleak outlook on the future of their colonies. Adams rallies the Congress with his vision of hope, freedom, and bright futures for their countrymen and the generations to come. Jefferson listens more intently than perhaps any other delegate, his eyes never leaving Adams as he speaks. He seems almost in awe of Adams as he joins the Congress in expressing their approval afterwards.
Sorry for the TL;DR post. I really love this series, and it's especially nice to revisit at the moment. Stay safe out there, my fellow countrymen.
Sad state of affairs if 2 short paragraphs are TLDR.
Adams and Jefferson also both died the same day, July 4, 1826, the 50th anniversary of the Declaration. Adams' last words were "Thomas Jefferson survives," but Jefferson had died a few hours earlier at Monticello.
Don’t apologize; this is some grade-A nerding out and I love it. This series is full of grade-A nerdout moments.
Soon as they start talking about the swivel-chair, John Adams be like, "JESUS! You guys are NERDS!!!"
That's because Jefferson and Franklin were both inventors. Franklin was more an electrical engineer, and Jefferson was more renaissance.
Adams was never very mechanical, he was more legal and political; he says this to the queen of france, telling her that he focuses on those things so his descendants can do the other things.
Nick Craig The scene would be halarious if he did said that. 😂
Adams himself was a nerd. The Atlas of Independence!
@@IronMan-tk8uc True, Franklin and Jefferson were Tech nerds, Adam was a bookish history nerd.
I think Adams was more in awe of Jefferson, which would explain the look at him.
Franklin's wisdom was so well-presented in this series.
Slavery is an abomination and must be loudly proclaimed as such. But I own that neither I nor any man has any immediate solution to the problem.
Thomas Jefferson
Let's stick to the subject at hand which is Independence.
Benjamin Franklin
I think the scene demonstrates the brilliance of these men who recognized that they should pick the battles that they could win and leave the other battles for a future time when they were ripe to be taken.
How fortunate we were to have the right men doing the job at the right time. Otherwise the entire effort would have been lost.
Well stated, Bravo Zulu.
I abhor those today so smugly critical of these men when the ideas they laid in this document were absolutely unheard of in their time.
Nothing comes in an instant, unfortunately our society today is a combination of the simplistic and instant gratification.
Jefferson didnt believe a multi-ethnic society could work. He was scared of race war. I truly dont understand why he held this view when I'm sure he had knowledge of ancient Rome. A city in which nobles sent their children to learn at esteemed Greek schools while simultaneously holding numerous Greeks (and all other races, no discrimination) in bondage.
@@edmonddantes3640 What people also fail to consider is that all evidence at the time pointed to Slavery weeding itself out over the course of a few generations. If it was clear the problem would solve itself, then no sense aggravating the issue.
What they did not consider at the time is that industrial innovation proceeded faster in the North than it did in the South, and that rather than pursuing their own innovations, the South expanded Slavery in order to remain competitive in production and trade.
Then to make matters worse, when territory opened up in the West, the South felt they could have an advantage over the North, as a platoon of slaves would be fare more productive on farmland than a family of Northerners working on their own.
The very idea intended to kill off Slavery over time.... only made things worse. One of the biggest unfortunate ironies of US history, and we paid a HEAVY price for it.
I wouldn’t call a guy who let six of his own children live in slavery as much of an opponent against slavery. Not to mention one that so evidently enjoyed raping young black women as much as he did.
@Chandler Burse there would have been no civil war, there would have been no Unified Colonies. The British would have made easy pickings of us in that case.
Some of the greatest men in history.
God tier level casting.
I love how they ask about slavery, and franklin is like "ah I'm sure this won't become a big deal"
Franklin was speaking of the more immediate future, the effort to declare independence.
Franklin knew that slavery was a huge deal, so huge that it could easily swamp the push for independence. One thing at a time.
@pyropulse unless you believe in higher ideals and judge every man as an individual.
No, that wasn't what he meant at all. He meant independence was the supreme issue before them.
@@speakallowed8435 Im typically very individualist, but I've learned that one cannot deny the tribal persuasions of the human condition. I think we took a path that will have significant growing pains to get humanity as a whole to move past race. It's not that minorites themselves harm society, it is a currently inevitable dynamic that can happen irregardless of who the majority and minority is.
"We hold these truths self-evident, that all men are created equal......."
There ya go!
That line is a lie,
All men are created equal, wait only if you are white. What Hippocrates.
@@edvinjohnson5382 they explained that slavery part in the video. The founding fathers where basiclly avoiding the issue hoping it was go away eventually, but it culminated in the civil warm
@@edvinjohnson5382 that's the thing he wrote all men alll men are created equal so that in the future when the right time comes slavery can be challenged in the court but unfortunately the south didn't budge and the United States entered its deadliest conflict in its history
Amazing they captured it on film!
I haven't seen the series, but I'm just impressed with the detail of the lighting. Whether it's real or they faked it, it's filmed as if it's using natural lighting. Sometimes you've got the sun shining into the room, sometimes a cloud goes over and casts it in shade. I don't think I'd notice/care if they'd lit the room artificial and kept it constant, but noticing the changes just adds another layer of immersion.
God this was so well casted
Thomas Jefferson was 33 when he wrote the Declaration of Independence
Sobison, I assumed he would be much older. Wow.
I thought he was 26
"Smacks of the pulpit!"
Love Wilkinson's delivery there. I could see Dr. Franklin saying it like that!
There are some on the right who believe that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. However, that's not really true when you look at the historical evidence. They may have been devoted to the Christian faith as individuals, but it was never their intention to create a theocracy, or to ascribe any kind of religious motivation to what they were doing. Indeed, to provide a central role for religion would have been a curiously European way of doing things, in their minds, and they were definitely trying to avoid that.
@TheSmithersy : No, of course they weren't trying to create an atheist nation. Atheism was virtually inconceivable among respectable people at the time, who were generally God-fearing. However, they were trying to be as secular, or at least as non-denominational, as possible, for precisely the reasons that you stated. In Europe, official or state churches were the norm, and the Founding Fathers wanted to create a nation with religious freedom and a separation between church and state. In other words, they believed that faith was primarily a matter for individuals and not institutions, especially not rulers or governments.
Most of the founders were secular humanists. That's why they didn't want religion anywhere near government. They knew the folly of a tyrannical church with governmental powers.
Always loved this sentence.
I love seeing how hard the critique of his words are to Jefferson. He clearly and obviously poured much of himself into the document, and even the most tactful editor would be hard to hear.
I love how none of his issues with the first draft were over the quality or clarity of the document, but rather with making Jefferson’s claims less bold and more palatable to his peers.
That’s politics in a nutshell. Compromise
This series should be required viewing for EVERY American. It is brilliant!
It astounds me that these men created such an amazing system of government and yet didn't put in a limit for how many years a congressman or senator could stay in office.
They have to be re-elected first and there are other ways to get rid of them.
Washington set the precedent of stepping away after two terms, but that precedent only applied to the Executive, as the Legislature held no such standard. Further, the balance of power between the Executive and Legislature became a tug of war that would go back and forth over several generations. Sometimes the President holding sway of a capitulating Congress... and other times Congress and Captain's of Industry strong-arming fairly weak President's... back and forth.
Two different documents, written at different times, and by two different groups of people. I will grant that many of them were the same, but also many were different.
The career politician did not exist at that time, indeed it took nearly a century before they started appearing.
Of course it should not astound - it was done by committee.
Which means, good soul, compromises were made and everyone was more concerned about more immediate questions than the Legislative Branch - more consumed by the question of "how much power should the Federal Government actually have...?". There was a not-inconsiderable amount of shove to loaning any central authority power after, well... what had just been happening in the last couple decades of their time.
Thus the system of government was a product of its time... as well as the failure of a system which had come before.
Or protect against oligarchy, which was known as a problem in Ancient Greece
The actors for Adams and Jefferson are brilliant, virtually perfect.
Jefferson hated to have his document edited, but more so by the rest of Congress than by these two, who he respected.
Jefferson actually included several references to the evils of slavery in his Declaration, but Congress had them removed.
When Virginia ceded territory north and west of the Ohio River to form a new state (Ohio), he put a motion before Congress to prohibit any new states from having slaves. It lost by one vote. If not for that vote, the Civil War might have been avoided.
Nah, the Civil War was inevitable. Slavery would have eventually been the last straw atop the other issues on the camel.
Principle and idealism feel like the same thing but are quite different in fact. In the declaration, practical principles overcame Jefferson's high flying idealism for the most part. It's a lesson he learned later in life.
Which is ironic because he himself was a slave-owner and had a sexual relationship with one of his slaves, an act that we would recognize today as coercive rape. Like Adams said in a later episode, the man was a walking contradiction.
"America was founded by intellectuals and they haven't been seen or heard of since." Forgot who said that
Sad that a good amount of Americans today actually look down on getting higher education.
Kori Jenkins it's too expensive compared to the employable benefit. Also, colleges are up to their necks in snowflakes, and we're not talking about snowstorms. Ask the University of Missouri who lost 1000's of students after they let the snowflakes have an extended meltdown.
I wouldn't go that far. But three more learned and wise individuals than Franklin, Jefferson and Adams could hardly be found.
oh that has to be twain. i'll even say it before i google it.
Kori Jenkins Because College is Now a Con.
Especially when you can get the Majority of that Information for Free.
“Well it’s what I believe” says Jefferson, nonchalantly, about penning the most important document in human history
The very moment they signed that document, it became a death warrant from the king. They knew the ramifications were just. This is our truth.
@Brad Watson sounds like a lot of hoopla
@Brad Watson This is all tommyrot. Franklin, at the time, was a deist, Jefferson was actually a Unitarian, although he never joined that church, and Adams was a lifelong member of the Congregationalist Church.
Wasn’t there a Jefferson bible, that omitted the silly stories, like Noah’s Ark, and revelation?
Benjamin Franklin, Founding Father, polymath, one of America's greatest political figures.
Also Benjamin Franklin in a swivel chair: OH MOST INGENIUS! I'll try spinning, that's a good trick.
Light years ahead of their time.
I never realized that Thomas Jefferson is portrayed by Stannis Baratheon!
Stannis Jefferson will sit on the iron swivel chair!!!!
One of my grandfathers, a Col. James Clarke, invented a surveyor's wheel and presented it to Mr. Jefferson at Monticello. I have a copy of the letter he sent upon receipt of the device. He was well pleased and used it often. Jefferson loved new inventions.
literally impossible for that to be, you are not 150+ years old
@@Elevator829 It's not uncommon to not list the line of "great" before "grandfather/mother".
Most of us figured he meant great father a few times over. Yeesh
@@KazumiKiguma Aye. Too much trouble to list off how many greats between my ancestors and me. Always easier to just list them as great-grandfather something or other.
Any chance of providing a digital photograph of that letter? If it's not too much to ask? :D
One of the best scenes HBO has ever shot imo.
“Slavery is an abomination and must be loudly proclaimed as such, but I own that I nor any other man has any immediate solution to the problem.” -Thomas Jefferson *to the people that think America was founded to protect slavery.*
@Flávio Sousa Franklin himself was a staunch abolitionist, Jefferson blamed the brits for bringing the institution of slavery to the US, but Jeffersons major failing, and the failure of the founding fathers, was that they didn't solve the slavery question until a bloody Civil War was needed to solve it for them
The US was essentially protecting slavery though by allowing it to continue to avoid scaring off the south.
@@dogguy8603 Oh the founding fathers were well aware of the evils of slavery but they needed thirteen weak colonies to stay united to survive, a significant number of influential people in those colonies owned slaves, without their support they stood no chance at all. Winning the rebellion was more pressing than solving the slavery question (at the time). Yes, unfortunately, it took 80 years and a horrific civil war to settle it.
The ONLY people that thought America was founded to protect slavery were the fucking racist, slave-owning DEMOCRATS .. Republican John Adams and Republican Benjamin Franklin hated slavery, as did all of the signers outside of South Carolina, North Carolina and Georgia ..
@@bradhartliep879 oh trust me i know, the south was the only reason they allowed slavery and still was the most loyal to Britain during the revolution, i still, just wish they solved the slavery question
This is a great scene because it totally embodies the agony of drafting
I absolutely loved this series. So well done on all levels.
Oh my God, an iconic moment in world history
Ben Franklin the old newspaper man editing your prose... just another day for the Founding Fathers.
I wish we had them today. We need them now more than ever
Can you imagine Trump or Biden in this room? Lol
@@brendafranciose7487trump fought to keep our border closed, Biden opened it wide up and is getting us into all sorts of wars. Do not even try to equate the amazing leadership of trump to that senile clown.
This was such an awesome mini series that I watch at least once a year.
I have this mini-series on DVD. It's time for another viewing.
As a writing student, this scene does a great job of showing how the editing process should go. The editors (Hamilton and Franklin) make changes that are meant to strengthen what the document is saying, while not changing the meaning and intent Jefferson had.
This was an amazing series!
The greatest minds of Massachussets, Philadelphia, and Virginia all in one room.
Tech Ben was from Massachusetts too
Oh... to have been in that room.
I would have liked to be a fly in the wall for that conversation. That, and the compromise of 1800.
Always love how Jefferson's main editors are a former newspaper editor and a lawyer.
WIlkinson is incredible as Franklin and the dynamics happening here between the three feels so authentic. I can feel the sinking spirit of Jefferson as this gets dissected.
There should be a miniseries about Franklin with Wilkinson portraying Franklin (as age appropriate).
An amazing thing about this series that I overlooked when I first saw it was the reconstruction of the Northeastern and Mid-Atlantic American accents as linguistic anthropologists believe it was spoken at the time. Notice the peculiar inflection Jefferson uses - the pronunciation of certain vowels. This accent no longer exists, but is hypothesized to be the way he (and others) would have spoken.
at the end of the day, even the greatest men in history...still find ways to have fun by spinning.
Tis a fun pastime.
"Okay, let's deal with the slavery thing later. What could go wrong?"
@Michael Martin You mean America never could've become a great nation without slaves? That's kind of pathetic, no?
@Michael Martin so in other words, yes? Btw, Britain wanted to abolish slavery. So I don't think Southern states would've felt at home back in that "fold."
Jonathan Alpart owning an entire country is slavery as well.
@@jonathanalpart7812 Britain had yet entirely dissolve ownership, and at the time was ambivalent on the issue as to the resolution of the issue. It was due to the persuasive and tireless efforts of people like William Wilberforce that dealt slavery the blow that led to its deserved end. They didn't outlaw the practice fully until 1833.
@@hippo11222 Some British would have you believe Britain never participated in slavery, or that slave holders in North America prior to 1776 were not British.
This is why I love American History 🇺🇸🥰🦅
Writes one of the greatest documents in modern history, also invents the swivel chair in his spare time. Baller.
The whole world should learn of this moment as mankind’s history.
This movie along with others of significant historical reference, Washington, Lincoln and Selma, should be made required viewing in grade schools, high school levels and upon the beginning of the required studies for citizenship.
Some of the most knowledgeable and articulate people on our system of government that l've met, are those who completed the process for legal immigration into our Country.
It should be the same standards taught in our schools.
It isnt a movie, its a miniseries
Great, great, great show....a must for your children that way they see the sacrifice that our fathers had to endure and maybe have American fall in love with America once again....John Adams is one of my heroes
Love how they’re talking about slavery and foretelling the civil war
I can relate to Jefferson, it sucks when other people are critiquing work you put so much time into. I don't think I would've been as polite as him though, I would've smacked the gout right out of Franklin's leg.
Jefferson RESPECTED his colleagues, and he valued their imput. It's what any great leader does.
*ffjsb* Indeed, Jefferson had as much respect for Franklin as any man he'd ever met. Upon meeting new acquaintances after becoming ambassador to France, Jefferson was often met with the question "It is you, Sir, who replace Doctor Franklin?", to which Jefferson responded, "no one can replace him, Sir; I am only his successor."
I am a writer and artist. I know what it's like to have your work held up to criticism... It hurts...
Actually Jefferson in this scene is behaving like hipster primadonna while Franklin and Adams are etremely polite, knowing his whimsical nature.
@@victorkong82
- "I know what it's like to have your work held up to criticism... It hurts..."
Lots of things hurt. Threatening people with violence because they hurt your feelings or make you uncomfortable is very childish.
Im a janitor that mostly does floor care. I take pride in my work and how my floors end up looking, but Im not perfect. Nobody is. If I were to let my ego get in the way and not allow people to criticize my work, not only would I not improve in my craft, but I wouldnt have a job for long. Art/writing works the same way. Nobody likes to work with somebody who refuses to accept criticism. Its just juvenile and ultimately creates inferior products.
John Adams is my 5th great grandfather
I think this is a great representation of who jefferson really was (assuming he is the man in the corner). He really just didnt know of a way to live without slavery. Even tho he owned slaves he wasnt thrilles about the institution of slavery as a whole
Yep that's supposed to be Jefferson.
I wouldn't say he didn't know a way to "live without it," but he didn't have a realistic solution to the hole his ancestors put him in in terms of slavery. He was born a slave owner himself, but in fairness he did get the ball rolling for the civil rights of essentially many generations of unborn people in North America, and arguably beyond. No independence, no civil war, no emancipation and no chance at the mountaintop. He was one of the most important intellectuals in the history of the West, but also a human being subject to flaws and shortcomings like the rest of us.
He said it himself "Maintaining slavery is like holding an angry wolf in its ears, you didn't like it but you wouldn't dare to let it go
it is one of the big unfortunate ironies of US history
Many of the founding fathers felt the issue of Slavery would resolve itself, as growing innovation in industry would make Slavery dwindle down to nothing over the course of a few generations.
What they didn't consider was, the North grew industrial power far faster than the South, and the South ended up having to expand Slavery in order to remain competitive. Then to make matters worse, when territory in the West opened up, the South saw they could have an advantage, as a family of Northerners building farmland could never keep up with Southerners and a platoon of Slaves.
The very thing intended to weed out Slavery only made it worse. And we paid a HEAVY price for it.
he not only owned slaves, he raped the young teenage girls that he owned as property
f*ck that POS
You can see Jefferson cringing inside as Franklin edits Jefferson's work.
I love how Tom Wilkinson played British General Cornwallis in The Patriot, and Benjamin Franklin in the series.
Indeed yes. But what's brilliant is that Wilkinson played two such different characters, and clearly distinguished them.
God fearing men who sat down for hours filling their hearts with free hopes and action! They immersed themselves in these ideas like musician's with their compositions!
“God fearing” slave owners and rapists you mean
Most relatable thing is how Jefferson paces back and forth anxiously waiting for a response