This is so great but I wanna make one more addition: Drax should say "Plunge it into Thanos' heart for me" or something along those lines That would make the "You should have aimed for the head" line hurt so much more
I like this, because then in shows again why Thanos wins, because our heroes are either unwilling or unable to make the same sacrifices and choices as the villain. either sentiment or moral lines stop them from making choices almost identical to Thanos's choices at various scenes, and I do like that running theme. a Villain with almost no lines left to cross, and no hesitation in achieving his goals, while the heroes do have lines they refuse to cross, and will hesitate.
To get what you want, you have to give something up. To give Thor a better arc, you have to lose "Why is Gamora?". And that is not a price I am willing to pay.
"So how's your girl dude?" "Oh she left me" "Oh" "And my mom died, my dad died, my hammer got destroyed, a creepy old man cut off my hair, my sister cut out my eye, my home was destroyed, and Thanos killed my brother..." "Oh...." "But I got a new axe!"
He stood so still that he became one with the universe, thus allowing him to be in multiple places at once. Alas, Thor was able to hold the door alone, thus depriving us of Nando's improved storyline. Still a great movie :)
I always thought of Thor’s plot line in Infinity War to be less of a character arc and more of the “stopping the ticking time bomb”. The stakes are that Thor needs to create Stormbreaker in time to stop Thanos. We don’t feel at ease watching his subplot because we know that his friends are in desperate need of him. Look at it like the Helm’s Deep battle. Thor is Gandalf, off on a quest to save the day, while the Avengers are the Fellowship, fighting to the death to protect Helms Deep from the Uruk Hai. When Gandalf comes, it’s a moment of great triumph and relief, not “oh he didn’t sacrifice anything boooo”. So when Thor arrives finally at Wakanda, we get this feeling that Thor will save the day, that finally the long night is over. And then when Thor *fails*, audiences are left absolutely stunned.
Exactly! This side quest was never meant to be a form of character development for Thor. It's just like you said "a ticking time bomb". While we are balling watching Cap and co. knowing that Thanos will come any moment and destroy them so we are just edging on thor to get the hammer... he passes out... Groot makes the handle... we all cheer. Even after all the trouble Thor still fails... THAT is the point if this quest. You go through soooooo, so much trouble nearly dying for a weapon that you know is unstoppable and yet it is stopped... it just crushes the soul of the vewier. Getting oh so close to winning and still losing. THAT is the point of the quest, Nando V Movies.
This is such an excellent point. Nando claiming that Thor has to sacrifice something to be compelling or for him to have growth... that just doesn't need to happen to every character every movie. Besides, Thor NOT killing Thanos when he could have will haunt him going into the next film. Thats where his growth in this saga will occur.
The point of infinity war, is that the avengers are not willing to make the sacrifices that Thanos does. Whether it be the life of vision, the life of Tony Stark, or the life of Gomora, the avengers fail where Thanos succeeds . Having Drax sacrifice himself undermines the theme of the entire movie. Just my thoughts.
But this isn't true... multiple characters were willing to make the necessary sacrifices. Star-Lord would have killed Gamora if it weren't for Thanos, Wanda literally killed Vision to save everyone, and I would say that Strange sacrificed himself and everyone else who died by the Snap in order to eventually save everyone in the endgame. The whole movie is about making sacrifices and the sacrifices our heroes have already made.
@@nas7416 But the only character who makes the necessary sacrifices without hesitation is Thanos. Everyone else in the movie waits too long hoping they don't have to sacrifice anything.
I'm not a fan of this mindset with fiction as a whole, but especially superhero films, that nothing matters and nothing feels justified unless someone dies. For me, the whole axe-forging sequence was interesting just because of how insurmountable the challenge was. They had to find a way restart a forge the size of a small city, and keep the fires of a literal star going. It's just a sidequest. No one needs to die. Did anyone die when Aragorn went to enlist the ghost army? Did anyone die when Ron and Hermione went to destroy Hufflepuff's cup? I do like the idea of naming the weapon after a dead character, though.
It's not the death that's important, it's the character development (or in this case, lack thereof). The "sidequest" was pointless in that it was useless for its protagonist's growth. It was, as you said, just a fetch quest, which is a waste of screentime. It was just something for Thor and company to do so that they wouldn't be idle and for us to still feel like they were important. (Which was more than we got for people like Captain America or Black Widow). Killing off a character is just one of many tropes that are used to generate stakes. By the way, the events described in this video are now my headcanon. Nando, please come up with a reason for Thor to take so long to reach Thanos!
Pedro Ciambra Mmm. It was hardly a "waste of screentime" in my opinion. Seeing them get the giant discs moving again was pretty exciting to watch. Plus, the whole sequence provided some much needed down-time to break up the action where Thor and Rocket had some meaningful interaction, which I never knew I wanted!
Pedro Ciambra Well, Ragnarok killed almost everything Thor had left and Infinity War killed the rest of it. When you destroy and break a character completely, it just stands to reason that said character will rise up again to greater hights. In order for Ragnarok and the intro to IW to feel satisfying, Thor needs to actually do something, so the loss of everything he had was not just wasted. I guss the quest itself didn't have to much character development, but it did make the rest of Thors journey worth it in the end. Basically strenghening his previus development. Pluss, Groot gets his stick out of his ass and does something, finally showing him regain some of his earlier character traits. Also, what left did he have to sacrifice exactly? It's made pretty clear during the movie that he has nothing else to loose. He says it hmself. "What more do i have to loose?" It could be argued that Loki's death should have been saved for the quest, but his death served a completely different purpose. To show Thanos as a lgtimate threat and to set the stakes for his journey and fight with the Avengers later. Thanos just killing Heimdal wouldn't really have given too much of a impact... but to see hm kill the guy whos faked death twice is quite intimidating. His death was needed to give Thanos entrance emotional impact.
Holy fucking shit that last part about renaming it to “the destroyer” was so good. This way is much more emotional and I like it but I also don’t want drax to be permanently dead because he’s one of my fav characters. I did not expect this to be this good
I literally gasped out loud. At first I was like but Thor's life is pretty sucky right now he doesn't need that. But then I heard the name and it all became worth it.
To be fair Thor has lost nearly everything in the span of two movies, so to me this is the end of his arc where he had already faced the stake and learnt his lesson (Thor Ragnorok) and rightfully earn the power he deserves, which is why we audience feel so satisfied seeing Thor get the almighty Stormbreaker and become as powerful as we expect him to be even though we are fully aware of his survival. It won’t work in any other scenario, but because Thor’s story arc was developed from the very beginning we care about his despair and resolve, and this makes a good long-term story telling.
The problem with this is is that Drax doesn’t mean anything to Thor. He met Drax 20 minutes ago, his loss will be minuscule compared to the loss of Heimdall, Loki, etc. Drax’s death won’t do anything for Thor’s arc.
Halskitchen yeah Immediately disagreed with this video. If you want the IW commentary, the Russo brothers love adding depth to character from previous movies. Thor lost everything in ragnarok, only to lose more in IW. He was owed stormbreaker. Not to mention Thor had to kick start the forge and nearly died in the process. AND Groot became important again sacrificing his arm to create the weapon.
Halskitchen YES!!! Out of everyone aside from Thanos, Thor has lost everything which is reinforced when he talked with Rocket, he even said "What more could I lose." Thor's mother was killed, his father died, his home destroyed, his people slaughtered, his best friend was killed and then he was forced to watch his brother die right in front of him, he was even left to die in space, Thor is owed Stormbreaker.
I think Nando framed his argument wrong by stating Thor didnt lose anything, but he's still right in that Thor didnt learn from that detour mission, and this rewrite would still make for a great amendment to the film. Thor did lose everything, but given his "nothing left to lose" monologue, it seems he didnt learn how to recover from that loss as a hero would, and Drax's sacrifice and speech about things getting better with your new family of imbeciles is exactly the kind of point to complete Thor's heroic arc, in addition to the power upgrade. It would be especially poignant and still in line with the overall "logical vs emotional sacrifice" themes of the movie if, as another commenter said, Drax in his last words to Thor asked for him to plunge the weapon deep into Thanos's heart, to which Thor obliges, only for him to respond with "shouldve aimed for the head". Also, Groot's arm grew back immediately, so that was a plot device not a sacrifice.
I think Thor does grow during the whole Nidavellir sequence. At the beginning of Infinity War, we see Thor in restraints, unable to break free and fight Thanos even with his newfound power from Ragnarok. After he loses Loki, we see him at his lowest point in the entire series; broken, bloodied, and powerless. His journey to Nidavellir is his journey to regain his full power and during this, he DOES realize that there are still things he can lose once he befriends Groot and Rocket.
I think the point of forging Stormbreaker, beyond giving Thor an upgrade against Thanos, was to renew his resolve and his confidence in his own abilities, both of which he gained in Ragnarok but to a great extent lost at the beginning of Infinity War. The weapon being forged in the manner it was lets him feel something other than just deep loss and self-doubt from being unable to save his people and family. He is able to have a success without suffering extreme loss. I feel like having a character be sacrificed to forge the weapon would be counter-productive if anything. It would mean that no matter what he does, people around him have to die, and for death and suffering being necessary to gain something would push him into Thanos territory. As it is, it lets him defy Thanos's cynicism and he comes to represent what Thanos isn't.
Fully agree. Thor didn't need to lose anything here because he's already lost everything. This was a journey to find the weapon, but more importantly to find his resolve
All of the dwarves were killed what more would you have? The place was shut down and Eitri also lost his hands in the culling. What can be said is the loss was not gratified enough to make it a detriment to viewers. (we didn't feel the losses as the dwarves weren't set up from before)
I'm a bit late to the party here, but I feel like Thor lost his home, half of his people, his father, his mother, his brother (maybe??), his eye, and his hammer that pulled him off. The journey to create his new weapon and his personal growth through hardship are more tied into Thor: Ragnarok. In that movie, even though he beats Hela, he still loses because Asgard is destroyed, only for them to escape just to be assaulted by Thanos at the end. He didn't need more growth as a character because all of his growth came in Ragnarok. That's how I look at it anyways.
And then in Infinity War, he immediately gets another eye, finds new people, a new weapon, and the things he did permanently lose were all part of a self-repeating ritual. I'm just saying....Infinity War isn't the issue in Thor's arc.
Kye Dysarthria I mean, yeah, since we’ve now gotten confirmation that Love and Thunder will be before a still as of yet hypothetical team-up with the Guardians...you’re right.
the problem with your logic at the start of the video is that Thor already DID pay a heavy price at the start of his arc, he literally lost everything he had already. Not to mention the stakes were high considering he almost died just trying to forge it.
The T-Rex in your Basement INC. well with that logic, the ending of Infinity War was predictable since Spidey 2, Black Panther 2, Guardians 3, Dr Strange 2 are movies set to release so in that case no one dies
Not important? The Survivors will grief. They lost everyone around them. Cap - Bucky, Tony - Peter, Okoye - T'Challa. WE know they will come back, but seeing them die was kinda hard to watch. Seeing your favourite Avengers see their friends die didnt feel important for you? Why nowadays everyone tries to be more clever than the movie itself? =\
Although this would have been amazing, it would mean we'd miss out on "Why is Gamora?" so I have to disagree with you here Edit: I've just realised they could give Mantis that line so I'm completely on board with this now
My thought was that Thor has already paid a heavy price that put him on the path to get the weapon. And his growth in Thor 3 almost puts him to be a fully realized character. In my opinion a price like Drax dying shouldn't be needed. I do like your idea that Drax shows Thor how he can love again and that there is always something to lose. I just don't think it necessary to complete the arc for acquiring storm-breaker. Just my thoughts, I like your videos. New subscriber!
Thats not a win win. A win win would be like me giving someone a game i dont like but they love and they do the same for me. Mutually beneficial. Thor losing everything he loves and getting a new weapon is not what i would call a win win
I highly disagree with you, if they made Thor's quest like you want it to be, it would be too overwhelming to keep track of every event. Thor's quest is a slow burn journey that gives the audience room to breathe after some intense drama and actions, like taking a walk with a close friend whom now you know had lost everything (his house, his car, his family in an accident...) but still manage to put on a smile and go to his last job interview. Finally seeing him success (sort of) is the most satisfying moment
What could happen is that in Nando's version, Nidavellier just so happens to be a short detour or even on the way to Titan... Thor explains his quest. Rabbit wants to go with him and be the Captain. Have Gamora show on the ships spacemap that they can still travel together until the two teams have to finally diverge. Thor eats Starlord's food and then prep the secondary pod while Starlord and Gamora get interrupted by invisible Drax. Have the scene end with Starlord telling him to go already. Team Thor bids Team Morons goodbye. As I finished I realise that Drax is two of the best scenes on the movie. 1. The invisible Drax. 2. Why is Gamora? This cannot be done. Rip Nando
First of all, Thor has lost almost everything. Loki, his mom, his dad, his eye, his hammer, his beautiful loreal hair, his whole planet and half his people. What more do you want from him? He is one of the, if not the most tragic character in the MCU. Yet, he smiles. And I feel like he needed that arc, after so much loss. This arc rejuvenated Thor. Also, I feel like this movie, it's not about the development of other characters, because they are already well developed characters. This movie is about Thanos and the consequences of his actions.
The point was that the scene itself didn't have many stakes... If nothing changed they should have just cuted that mission from the movie...I'm not sure if the way that the video fixes the problem is the best one, but I do think that mission was the weakes part of the movie...
B. C. Sharpe Destroyer was the robot that Thor destroyed in his first movie. Naming it destroyer is symbolic of Drax's suffix as the Destroyer,and also one of Asgard's most powerful weapon,the Destroyer.
Just off the first minute I don't think "nobody changes" is a good statement. Groot clearly has character growth here. The whole movie he was playing his games doing nothing to help but at the moment Thor needed it the most, he helped complete the hammer.
My entire reason for believing that this *specific* trio gets the weapon created, is based off of WHO is there, and what happens. Thor: Has lost *everything*. Family, homeland, best friend, WEAPON....so the SECOND he pinpoints something, ANYTHING that would allow him to wreak havoc on all of that? He's on it, full-stop. Rocket: JUST learned to be a more compassionate person, that works as a team and helps support people when he *himself* isn't able to get the job done by himself. Groot: Recently reborn, has seen may situations where he needs to learn to work with "his family", and grow past the self-centered'ness of being a child/teenager. So Thor, wanting his vengeance and needing a new weapon to accomplish it....Rocket, assessing that "Yeah, this guy is the real deal, both mentally and physically, let's help him get it done", and Groot growing (literally) as a person to help *both* of his compatriots reach their goals....it's pretty big. And, frankly, we NEEDED a "win" at this point, thematically. Vision was beat to hell, everyone that tangled with Thanos was defeated, people were killed -- almost callously -- to see The Mad Titans' goals reach fruition....so we NEEDED one of the heroes to have a really, REALLY big win. Was it? Well, no, obviously. Rocket got distracted during the Wakanda fight, by either wanton destruction or envy of Bucky's arm. Groot was doing what Groot does, but *also* had people respecting him while doing it, which PROBABLY prevented him from thinking clearly enough to try to STOP the Big Raisin from accomplishing his goals. As for Thor? Well, we legit thought he had a shot. He had the weapon. He had the timing, the strength, the EVERYTHING. But....wouldn't you know it, we caught him (trying to) monologue'ing at the villain. Aaaaaaand SNAP. Honestly, we needed the win, we needed the THOUGHT that we could get it done.....just so it gets ripped away from us, to make a compelling 2nd chapter. We're at the halfway mark, kids, that's how movies like this WORK.
I think this sub-plot is for the change of teenage groot from a childish video game player to being somewhat mature.And thor already lost his home, his brother, his best friend and half of his people. But great video by the way.
Kinda disagree, sometimes a scene/moment is just that a scene/moment. Technically Thor suffered a shit ton of loss before getting stormbreaker. Mjolnir was destroyed, his brother and father died, his home was obliterated. This is more of an empowering moment, Thor is fully realized here, he doesn't need too much arc now. Its a story of a man humbled brought back to power, humbled again and brought back to power again. His line also soldifies it, When Rocket asked what if he is ering and Thanos defeated him, he said "well I've got nothing to lose now." His loss is so much at this point you dont need another loss for him.
Totally agree with you dude. His arc is finalised in this movie, he already lost so much in prior movies and this one as well (Loki), this is his moment now.
Thor shouldn’t need a weapon, he is the god of THUNDER, he spent the entirety of the last movie learning that. This complete 180 bothers me soo much, ughhh. >_
this isn't about him needing to suffer more. It's about him learning to be able to move forward and not let his loss consume him like it consumed Thanos. He needs to learn that he can forge new families continuing the message from Guardians 2 and that he has everything left to lose, well half of everything
"thinking of renaming it, The Destroyer"... You made me tear up. Imagine that happened. It would have been perfect. Thanks for the beautiful rewrite Nando, you always know how to hit the feels.
Have to disagree, Nando! I think Thor being a static character in the film is of major importance to the script and its theme. Every character in the movie chooses to “trade lives” or willingly lose something in order to win, except for Thor. And that’s what makes Thor the most successful hero at the end of everything. His differentiating development adds another layer of depth and discussion to the movie’s themes and meaning- imo.
Thor is also the only one in the movie that fully risks death in order to kill/ stop Thanos. Vision isn’t allowed becausethey try to save him via rerouting Enron’s. Cap doesn’t risk anything black panther is in and everything proof suit. Tony never has to sacrifice him self strange immediatelygives up the stone. Thor is the only one to put his life fully on the line no questions asked not knowing if he’ll live or die.
Thor's entire character arc was that his mother died, Odin died, Loki died, Heimdell died, all asgardians died, and Asgaurd is destroyed. Thor is mid character arc when the film opens. He doesn't even believe Stormbreaker will kill Thanos, the entire point is he has no more choices and this is his last resort. So your entire point that Stormbreaker comes at no cost fundementally doesn't work for me. He has lost everything before resorting to Stormbreaker, he literally has nothing left to lose. Part of the reason Infinity War is such an epic movie is how its able to continue character arcs that weren't complete before. While I really like your alternative idea and it would of worked for a more traditional movie, this is one of the rare times I like what was in the film itself and was completely satisfied with it. Thor is at his lowest point, so when he returns with Stormbreaker to save the day its immensly satisfying.
That is pure gold. Yes I agree that each new development must be with costs. That little change would have been mind blowing. Nando, you are a work of art. Please do other movies apart from dc, marvel and star wars. Respect from Nepal
"Bungee jumping and all kinds of Adrenalin tourism , mountains to tropics within 200 km, Awesome for trekking, relatively lower costs of travelling and smile everywhere." I just made it sound like a tourist ad.
Frankly, my biggest problem with the stormbreaker scene is that it undoes a lot of what Ragnarok tried to do. Thor's missing eye and learning to harness the lightning without his hammer were major growing points for the character, and it just sort of reverts those lessons in this film. It's still a great movie, and Thor rocks in it, it just kind of bugs me.
Yes! At some point, I asked myself, “Do the Russo brothers have some sort of vendetta against Taika Waititi?” IW pretty much invalidated almost everything Ragnarok set up.
Ultra Nerd They probably didn’t agree with his version of Thor. I personally wasn’t a huge fan of what Taika Waititi did so I was on board with what the Russos did.
How did losing his eye teach Thor anything? For me it felt random and unnecessary. And a bit forced. And he still lacks his eye, he just has a prosthetic now.
I think the issue with adding this would be... well, Thor's loss was that he didn't go for a headshot. We haven't fully seen the fall out and the guilt from that yet. After losing his world, his entire family, all his friends and people, balancing it with a sidequest that seemingly turned out perfectly was a good emotional balance. I felt like getting Stormbreaker was the payoff for his guilt and loss from the beginning of the film (and the previous) but THEN he is knocked off that pedestal again by failing to stop Thanos right at the moment it was most crucial. Like you said, it's hard to tell what is a problem and what isn't without the whole picture. And I think what you suggested works emotionally. But I do feel like Thor does have half his arc already in place. Not to mention killing Drax would really skew the future of the Guardians stuff given that they've already lost a member (I know almost all of them are technically dead, but the likelihood of the dust-deaths being permanent is slim. The others I'm hoping will be permanent or that's just cheap). Nebula and Quill are going to be hit hardest by losing Gamora, and losing Drax as well would throw off their dynamic even further and make balancing Quill and Nebula's very different emotions and connections in their grief way harder to achieve - because there's another bit of grief to balance in there. I do think it'd be interesting if Thor went off with the Guardians for a while after the events of IW part 2 (providing he lives), but I'm not sure he needed his arc wrapped up in one film. Generally this film felt a lot more like a pay-off-spectacle rather than a character development film - except for Thanos, who needed the time to develop. Just... ah idk, Thor has had a LOT of development because of Thor 3 and he didn't feel like the priority to focus on?
Exactly. I was saying his sacrifice came before all of it when he lost literally everything before that moment. AND I was saying he should TOTALLY join the GotG after all of this is over, since he has no one and fits in with them nicely.
After Thor Ragnarok, Thor became one of the well-loved from one of the least acknowledged characters in the MCU. Even then, I think he had a pretty big highlight with IW (because, well, Thor 1 and especially 2). If there's a character that we didn't see so much growth from, aside from the facial hair, that would probably be Captain America. He just showed up, brought the team to Wakanda, had a new shield, fought. I like IW overall and I liked Nando's take on "fixing" it. But, like we all know, this is just the first half. Maybe those who did not receive any spotlight would have theirs in 4.
I think thats what the Russo's said in an interview, Thor weakness is he didn't go for headshot. He wanted a "monologue" to Thanos as he kills him and that becomes Thor's ultimate regrets.
+Benjie I totally agree. I love Cap's growth when it happens, but he really hasn't changed much since Winter Soldier (it's a total shame because Chris Evans is talented, but even his reaction to Bucky dissolving was... REALLY muted) unlike Thor who has completely changed VERY recently. +Elton Really? That's super interesting! I'd actually thought that Nando's fix was going to be related to making that moment a lot more brunt (I've my own thoughts on what they could have done with Dr Strange's prediction to make that "Should have aimed for the head" moment doubly defeating, but I don't know enough about Strange's powers to know if it'd work) +Mean Bean Yeah :-0 I think, especially given Gamora dying, he'd interact very interestingly with Quill and Nebula (Nebula in PARTICULAR, since Thor's relationship with Loki was complicated and he might be able to help Nebula with any conflict she has with regards to her own dead sibling)
Hans Cap will have a wayy more screen time and development in the next movie. I can feel it. He will be have a more central part in that movie. And I think he is a bit muted because he is a bit of a stoic character (in some ways). So I think sometimes they would rather him not say much or give much away about how he feels as it could feel a bit out of character if done wrong. With that being said though, I think his reaction shows exactly how he feels. He's sitting down on the ground and his facial expression shows disbelief and pain. I thought he was going to cry a bit or show tears. For the first time in all his appearances, he looks like he has been defeated.
The interesting thing about the Thor detour in the film is that, you're right, Thor doesn't get a real arc in it, but Groot does. In the beginning of the film he is disinterested and disenfranchised with everything, y'know, like a teenager. After seeing what lengths Thor is willing to go to to combat Thanos, he changes his mind and helps create Stormbreaker. He then partakes in the big fight at the end because he has grown to recognise the significance of the events.
I thought the fact that Thor *didn't* learn that lesson was key to his ultimate failure. He was still stuck on revenge, so he made sure to hit Thanos in the chest instead of the head, so he could look him in the face and taunt him instead of finishing the job.
I do think that it seems more like a Drax line than Mantis. It feels weaker if it was her. Also, I feel like the exposition from Drax is a bit too long winded or something. It just doesn't feel to me that it fits him. I like the touches of "imbeciles", but is Drax the kind of character who has long monologues? Has he done that before? Or am I just forgetting? Also, if Drax dies, then what will happen to the future Guardian of the Galaxy? I mean, it works well, but I still feel that Drax dying naturally is not what was intended, and in order to keep them together, he had to go by Thanos' snap. Did he ever call the hammer Stormbreaker in the film?
1. Yeah that's true. 2. His talk with Peter in Guardians 2 about how Gamora doesn't dance is about the same length. He talks like that occasionally, usually about his wife and daughter. 3. Yeah it would change the team big time but I think his arc ending at Infinity War would be worth losing him. 4. Thats fair. 5. I'm pretty sure Eitri names it early in their conversation.
2. Right, so that works. 3. Perhaps he could come back in 4? Apparently they are considering some sort of time-travel/alternate reality shenanigans. 5. Firstly, Beta Ray Bill appeared in Ragnarok as one of the statues on the building with the Hulk's face. Secondly, Thor could always just give him the name of the weapon and call it Yarnboirng or something. They will rectify it. They are not going to let it sit if Beta Ray Bill does come on.
Thor could have join the guardians in vol 3 in this scenario. Personally I'm hoping that Valkyrie will team up with them (taking elements from the Angela character).
This is the first time I've disagreed with you, thor's price was paid at the beginning of the movie when he lost half of what was left of asgard, heimdall, and loki. Thats why he was so near suicidal in achieving his goals. It just kind of feels to me you have a problem bc it didn't happen in that order. Youre suggestion for change isnt bad at all but I feel its coming from a flawed sentiment.
At least this way he gets something cool and meaningful to do before he sorta-maybe-allegedly is poofed out of existence forever. Of course I'm in the camp that thinks that pretty much *all* Snap victims will be returned at the cost of some if not all of the original Avengers in A4, so Drax can still get a moment, whereas any non-Snap death probably *is* permanent, so Nando's suggestion would be writing off Bautista for the rest of the MCU with absolute certainty.
I think star Lord should of lived since he was the reason why thanos wins and he would have to face the guilt of being the reason that half the universe is dead.
Goddamn that was amazing. When you were describing drax’s lines, and then “the destroyer” at the end, I was nearly brought to tears. And if I saw that in the movie, I definitely would have cried. Amazing.
CaptN Mexico I guess I was thinking of it more along the lines of him asking for more information on the handle. Well that and that everyone else there was either unconscious or only able to say three words in a particular order lol
Thor was the antagonist to Thanos' protagonist. He gets what he wants - but does not ultimately succeed. From a Campbellian story perspective, his story arc ends in defeat at the atonement with the father stage. I'd compare it to, say, Hans Gruber from Die Hard. He has to go through a struggle but is still mostly successful with his plan until the very end, when he gets the treasure he wants but his plans are fouled by Mcclain. Then he, uhh, dies. So it's not a perfect example. But I think you get the point. If Thor doesn't come to terms with his loss in the next movie, then all this goes out the window. But I don't think this addition or change to the story is necessary.
I think the conversation between Rocket and Thor about what he has lost was one of best moments.something I thought of in the above mentioned dialogue is that Thor is way more funny to hide the loss he is feeling and is kinda hinted in the conversation.
These are good ideas, don't get me wrong, but if the movie unfolded this way we'd be missing out on the humour and tension that Drax brought to the scenes he was in. Also, as others have mentioned, there was character growth for Groot that would be overshadowed by Drax dying.
Dark Sev. That saga was the whole "quest for magic object that fixes everything" but it doesnt (wooooo broke expectations). The lesson is that Thor wouldnt be abble to do it without Rocket ans Groot (AKA friends) and the weapon is made out of a damn limb. My only promlem was Groot's lack of emotion. The rest was fine.
I disagree there are emotional stakes for Thor and an evolution of Groot. The scene where Thor is telling us about all that he has lost is what sets up emotional stakes. He needed stormbreaker to avenge the last relative he had Loki. He also realises in the same scene how much he really lost. Groot also evolved as he became heroic when he cut off his arm to forge the axe. He finally looks up from his game and helps the people around him.
What I found funny about this part of the movie is that the emotional journey was Groot’s. He went from being stuck to his games and not caring about anything to chopping his own arm off to help someone he barely knows. Then by the end, he’s dead. It feels like everyone who has an emotional arc winds up having their time cut short. While everyone who doesn’t move at all are the ones left behind. Tony stays the same, Doctor Strange sacrifices himself and his singular motivation for a greater purpose. Steve is self-assured that trading lives is not something to be done, Wanda is convinced by Vision to go through with it anyway. Starlord doesn’t wanna kill Gamora, but decides to go through with it anyway to save her from suffering, then once he learns that Thanos killed her, he goes apeshit and decks him, waking him up. Thanos respected him for being willing to make a bold choice, then gets annoyed by his passion because it makes him keep flip-flopping. Black Panther is wiped out after being willing to change his mind about keeping Wakanda isolationist. Peter Parker is wiped out after being convinced that he really was just a kid who didn’t belong in a crisis of this scale. Bucky’s entire character is about shifting personalities and figuring out how he really is. Everyone main character who changed in this movie wound up dead. Everyone that Thanos met who didn’t budge survived. So it feels even worse. All of the people who were evolving and learning have that journey cut short. It’s almost as if Thanos admired people who stuck to their guns and the Gauntlet let those kinds of people live.
Personally it seems like a specific choice because, realistically, they probably won't have time for those emotional arcs in the second part either. Almost everyone who got turned to dust are those with a lot of potential for new storylines, and those who stayed don't have must more to look at... which to me makes me think a lot of them won't live. Particularly Tony, since Strange gave up to keep him alive (so he'll probably do something later to save the day, and maybe won't survive, which also makes sense that he had that conversation with Pepper at the beginning)
I actually think you tapped on a deeper thematic intent of the film. It's about the consequences of people caving in to emotion, in a sense, as opposed to a stone cold logic.
There are three occasions in the movie when a character chooses to sacrifice someone they love. One is blocked by Thanos, and another is reversed by Thanos. Only Thanos' own sacrifice is effective. One of the themes is that the good guys "don't trade lives" - as a character from a different franchise puts it: "no compromise, even in the face of armageddon". The alternative justifies wiping out a third of the universe if it would prevent Thanos from getting his hands on all six Stones.
A Wild Ymarc Appeared! I kinda wished this happens so the new hammer can be called the destroyer and drax gets to die thinking thor will avenge his own family, drax and draxes family
That’s the point though. Thor’s arrogance is reaffirmed by his “rebirth” at the hands of stormbreaker. This leads to his failure to kill Thanos the end. His “loss” is a further extension of his original loss; his failure to save the day.
The dialogue he came up with for the characters was really convincing,he has a pretty good grasp of the characters' personalities and the way they talk
You aren't looking at it the right way. Thor loses Everything and in the wake of that loss the Revenge is what drives him to get what he needs. He already paid the tole. he literally just fought his sister to save his people right before thanos comes and crashes the party, kills his best friend and brother. hes lost his hammer, his father, his home, half his people, his brother, his best friend. to take a line from thor himself.. what else has he got to lose? This isn't a single movie, thors ark has been completed over a few movies. not a single movie. if you try to wrap up stuff in a single movies.. MCU wouldn't be as good. the characters are built over every movie.
HORSEDICKoMPEG YES! Thank you. That's what I was thinking. Not to mention you literally see Thor shed a tear. The God of thunder cries as he recounts everything he's lost. If Thor crying isn't growth, I don't know what is.
I like your idea, but I have a major criticism of it. Which is the idea that "we don't trade lives" The reason why the good guys are likely going to win is because of this idea, that sacrificing your friends is never worth the cost. And while I think your idea greatly improves that arc, it works against the major idea of the movie.
but even on the good guys' side, many of the heroes are willing to trade lives. Drax sacrificing himself would be no different from Gamora making Quill promise to kill her, or Scarlet Witch acquiescing to Vision's wish to destroy him when there was no other option the difference with the good guys' idea of "trading lives" and thanos' is that the heroes do it out of their own volition. Whether or not they choose to save lives at the cost of their own, it's their decision that they make for the greater good. On the other hand, while Thanos also believes his actions are for the greater good, he is destroying lives arbitrarily without their consent, without their heroism. in that sense, nando's idea is a great addition to the theme, for both Drax and Thor. For Drax, we see from his rash engagement with Thanos on Knowhere that his personal vendetta still holds priority over thinking about how to stop Thanos effectively. By sacrificing himself to forge the weapon, his arc would be complete-his bloodlust and personal motivations would be replaced with an altruistic sacrifice that would bring an end to Thanos (supposedly) and bring him to peace. Thor (in the new arc that nando describes) would see that he doesn't have to fight alone, and that friends and family are why we are willing to fight for our lives in the first place. With his new weapon as a constant reminder that he holds responsibility to those who have given up their lives, he will be better equipped to face Thanos of course Drax's sacrifice will be (seemingly) in vain and Thor will have failed to hold up his duty, but like the other characters' arcs they will be resolved in the next movie.
sp0pie i see what your saying but zorlox's point still stands the point of the other sacrifices seemed to me to emphasize caps point that trading lives is a mistake.
You could certainly right, but we can't know for certain until the next movie. Both of the characters we see who choose to sacrifice a friend immediately have that decision rendered pointless. Peter's gun only shoots bubbles and scarlet witch's detonation of the mind stone is turned back. The way I see it the movie is saying that sacrifice is ultimately meaningless, and I predict the next movie is going to be Thanos learning the meaninglessness of his own sacrifices. Again I could certainly be wrong, but drax's sacrifice that Nando plans doesn't fit well with what the rest of the movie set as the standard for hero driven sacrifice.
4:59 - 'And someday, soon, you will have imbeciles' I have not laughed so loudly while watching a TH-cam video in months - I discovered your channel today and I love your style!
DBSTKjS I disagree that Loki and Hemidal's death makes his character arc redundant throughout the film to be frank, and Drax dying and giving the family advice would add anything substantial. Thor already at that point knows family is important and holds them in high regard on some level. So Drax's advice would be counterintuitive since that is something Thor feels on some level. Not to mention Drax isn't the most forward thinking of warriors. He wasn't with Ronan, Ego, etc. So if he hears he would have had a chance to face Thanos head on, he would take that opportunity without a second thought, because that is the character James Gunn set up. Not to mention his conversation with Rocket and Peter Dinklage's character already serves that purpose imo. With Infinity War it shows why Thor is a power player/the Mighty Avenger in more than one way, and it was needed for his character as well.
I'd say Thor doesn't have to "pay a price" in that side journey itself. He already had his whole family killed not to mention all of his people, so of anything its reversed. He paid a heavy price first then sought the weapon to stop more from happening, only to lose even more.
Yeah but that's the issue. If he has nothing left to lose or gain from the journey then it's just wasted screen time. It wouldn't be an issue if the detour in the plot wasn't there to begin with.
I think it would be better for Drax and the Guardians too. Drax was great at the First Movie but he's kind of just a silly character in Guardians 2 and IW. He's also not that important in the fight against Thanos and it would have been a great arc for him and a really touching death that we would really care about. If not for Thor, for Drax.
@Deviant Oreo He is a better character when he's not a comic relief. I think the essence of GOTG is not in Drax being stupid. I laugh a lot in the begining of Guardians 1 and Drax wasn't even there. The essence is in the family relation they have and losing Drax would make this family grow emotionaly. And James Gunn isn't even working in the third movie so the whole Idea we have of them is going to be different from now on. I wish they have more weight and development than just being a comic relief.
I usually appreciate your takes on these films, but I don't agree with this one. The way you frame the story is just piling on sentiment where there needs not be any. Thor had a heartfelt convo with Rocket, and the only real change to that moment should be Rockets retort
Did you miss the beginning? Thor wasn't on the way to Nidavellir for the LOLs. He'd been King of his people for like a day and now half of them or more are dead. His best friend (Heimdall) is dead, murdered before his eyes, along with his brother. His other friend has been forced to run away and now all that stands between Thanos doing that to his second home is nothing. He has nothing left to lose, just as Luke lost his family, to go on a dangerous adventure to try to move on and save others from this same cycle. Thor was willing to die trying to get a weapon to save the universe and nearly did, but his new friends prevented that, with Groot being so inspired by Thor that he was willing to endure the pain of pulling Stormbreaker together and cutting off his arm. Then at the end, his entry is not only a high point in the film, but a turning of the tide and a refreshing moment for the audience. Then, as the Russo's have pointed out, instead of going for the quick and easy kill, he goes for the gloating kill, which ultimately leads to the universes sorrow, something he's going to have to deal with in the next movie. His journey has many of the elements of the classic heroes journey but with some interesting subversion's to it. Frankly, it's one of the best subplots of the movie; I felt that if (IF) I had to point a finger at a weak subplot, it would be Vision's, and what seemed like his quest to die.
As good as this theory is, it kills Drax forever for a short-term benefit of another character's arc. The end he got in Infinity War allows him to revive in Avengers 4 and also be in GoTG Vol. 3.
I think the movie version is way better than your sugestion. The Thor ark is the favorite of alot of people who watched the movie. Thor has payed enough already and seeing him get Stormbreaker feels like a well deserved reward after all the suffering he has gone throu. Making Thor loose even more would just not work out. And drax needs to stay alive cause hes the fanfavorite for sure.
I like the suggestion in this video if we hadn't just had Ragnarok - but with Thor coming out of his largest transition to date - I totally agree with you. He already lost his "weapon" and had to learn how to be great without it. Then, when he had gotten to the best point - he loses almost everything. His brother dies trying to save him. His people are shattered and half destroyed. Heimdall and presumably many of his other friends are just gone. The arc in the movie to me did accomplish a lot of what this video proposes. Thor does find new friends that inspire him - and he does get a new weapon that he can now use even better. I think Thor being "optimistic" as this video suggests would've gone completely against the tone of IW. Thor is pissed. He's got vengeance on his mind and he's doing it for fairly good reasons.
CherryNetwork Yeah. There is pleasure from having seen prievious movies, he’s had his lost already. MANY TIMES. Tho this versjon is pretty cool on its own
100% agree, definitely my favourite part of the movie, because he has and is prepared to sacrifice so much, and even though he doesn't in the end its really nice seeing him get his reward. And the scene itself is really visually pleasing also, with the spinning rings of the star etc.
What the heck dude. You want Thor to lose something more to get this hammer? The guy just lost Asgard like 5 seconds ago, lost half of his people, lost his eye, and earlier than all that his dad. He's lost a ton already. He's already changed a lot.
That very last line actually made me say “whaaaaaaaat” out loud in a room all by myself. That caught me totally by surprise and was so freaking awesome. I LOVE the whole Drax arch and to end it with Thor calling his hammer The Destroyer was so badass. Wicked fucking dope dude. Can’t say it enough.
If you’re interpreting these characters’s archs movie by movie than you’re absolutely you’re right. But in the mcu story archs are not contained in a single movie, but rather over the span of multiple movies. Thor has just lost his family and his people; he doesn’t need drax to teach him anything new. Thor is already willing to give his life for the chance of obtaining stormbreaker/ revenge. The Mcu is changing the game in cinematic story telling and interpreting it as if it hasn’t is just foolish.
making sacrifices is not the lesson he is teaching, the lesson is "you didnt lost everything, you still have friends, and you dont need to put all the weight on your shoulders", because thor was acting as if he was the only one that could defeat thanos,that is just half of the thruth, because he cant defeat him alone
The stakes felt pretty high. No new Hammer = No chance of defeating Thanos. This is your first video that I want to disagree with. I like it, elegant writing as always, I appreciate your effort but I do not feel like this would be an improvement.
This is unbelievable!!!!!! Every so often, you write some dialogue that is better than any Hollywood writer has ever created. This episode is one of those instances. AMAZING!
I think Thor did pay a price for Stormbreaker. Despite having the hammer he failed to kill Thanos and so half of the universe died and he had to watch some of his friends die. Thats a pretty high price right there.
Alex Wackett I agree thor was thinking about his own interest. As someone who helped create vision he knows the stone is in danger. He should've immediately went to earth to help the others. It probably would've helped a lot. I'm sure with thors help getting the stone out of vision without killing him would be easier.
He didn't pay that price for Stormbreaker, though, that was a completely separate thing. It's like saying "Yeah, I paid for these chips. I gave a hobo some money earlier this week." and the cashier's just like "Man, you have to pay *me*, *now*."
Thor lost his brother, his close friend and half of his people in the first 5 mins in the film... I’d say he lost a lot on the way for that hammer in fact if he didn’t get put trough so much heart ache, would he have gone for the hammer so soon. Also by splitting up the Gardiens they are arguably weaker and get captured and one of them dies. I get your point but deffo think he lost a lot on his journey
this is one of my favourite channels on youtube. its so easy for people to come out and shit on plotholes in movies but you find the flaws and then you show a way to fix it and make the story better. love it
Tyson Williams it has no purpose? The whole point of this detour is to forge a weapon that can kill Thanos. Something said weapon almost literally does. It’s not a useless detour in the least.
Tyson Williams and their is a story, its basically how Thor will do anything to avenge his people and brother against Thanos for what he did to them, basically Thor confronting his demons but not fully embracing them, something rocket mentions in the beginning of the stormbreaker arc. And lol no stakes? Is that even worth a comment? The stakes are he could possibly die taking the full on beams of a fucking sun to forge a powerful weapon, all just so he can get his revenge. None of your reasons validate why the detour was bad. An actual good example of a meaningless detour would be the casino planet in tlj.
I think the main part was also to serve as a break from the sad parts of the film. Thier where some emotional moments during thors journey but it was almost completely made of triumphs which balanced the film nicer
completely agree with you guys and about the point that we think Thor will survive, no we don't necessarily know that. Especially with the deaths of Loki and Gamora, two major characters, Thor could easily die. The way I saw it was that Thor's arc is a continuation of his previous arc from Ragnarok. His arc was about how far would he go to get revenge, how has loss defined him.
0:50 I don't think it's fair to say nobody grows. Throughout the movie, teen Groot is portrayed as selfish and disinterested, but once Thor's life is at stake, he sacrifices a part of himself to help Thor, similar to the ending of GotG 1. I think that this signifies him beginning to mature back into adult Groot.
Understand where you're coming from, but respectfully think you're missing the culmination of this Stormbreaker arc. It's not him getting the weapon. It's him failing against Thanos. He discusses with Rocket that he will succeed because he always has, he is fated to win. Stormbreaker arc is fulfilling this, as any normal movie where Thor was the big hero would result in him getting his magical macguffin, and saving the day at the last second. And everything shows that, they Avengers fanfare with his return to Earth, he flies in after Thanos gets all the gems, and he even gets that final hit in. But he still fails. And he loses all the things he thought he didn't have left to lose. The arc is him showing how committed he is in this belief that he will do everything he can and fate will support him to win. Substituting Drax for this, while adding camaraderie, would remove that display of conviction.
These changes don’t really make sense to me. Because what Thor “loses” in the end is the chance to kill Thanos. Those scenes were clearly put in to break from the drama and have a little down time to soak it all in. Having Drax die would just undermine the use of those scenes. Like I said before, I think the sequence works because the movie takes it time to set all this up, making you think they truly have a chance against Thanos, only to have that chance stepped on and thrown away. This at the same time is also showing you how absurdly powerful Thanos is; practically shrugging off the axe in his chest and quipping “aim for the head” before killing half the universe.
anybody got the russo brother's email? I am still just reeling in from having watched the movie a few days ago and this guy goes ahead and makes it even better. amazing as always. can you just write a marvel script already? just a short maybe. something new. one thing I dont understand though... in ragnarok, the lord of thunder doesnt need a hammer cuz that is not the source of his power?. couldnt he just use anything as a weapon if the power just flows through him? like a vibranium shield or something?
Imagine Thor's power as a pool. Now if he use it without using Stormbreaker, it would be like using your own hand to take some water. But with Stormbreaker, which is like a bucket, he can take more water, thus more powerful.
Odin says it in Ragnarok, it focuses and harnesses his power. And the only thing strong enough to withstand that kind of energy in that manner is whatever the star material is called. Vibranium is powerful but it just can't be used that way
akshay de The lightning alone wouldn't be enough to kill him, or even Earthly metals as shown in the Titan fight, so he needed something Godly to penetrate his skin
This is so great but I wanna make one more addition:
Drax should say "Plunge it into Thanos' heart for me" or something along those lines
That would make the "You should have aimed for the head" line hurt so much more
Omg it would!
Shoogie Why doesn’t this have a thousand likes. This would’ve been so good
I like this, because then in shows again why Thanos wins, because our heroes are either unwilling or unable to make the same sacrifices and choices as the villain. either sentiment or moral lines stop them from making choices almost identical to Thanos's choices at various scenes, and I do like that running theme. a Villain with almost no lines left to cross, and no hesitation in achieving his goals, while the heroes do have lines they refuse to cross, and will hesitate.
Yes! You know what's up!🍺🍻🍺
Shoogie I hate this comment. It hurt my soul
To get what you want, you have to give something up. To give Thor a better arc, you have to lose "Why is Gamora?". And that is not a price I am willing to pay.
Tamerlein Music and we would lose the dialogue between him starlord, peter and Tony and that is one of the best scenes in the movie
You can give that line to Mantis, she could be channeling Drax at that moment
He can do that over a skype call
The hardest choices require the strongest wills.
Don't forget "I am invisible to the eye"
"I'm thinking of renaming it... The Imbecile"
Lazar Lilic, I Lol'ed!
"So how's your girl dude?"
"Oh she left me"
"Oh"
"And my mom died, my dad died, my hammer got destroyed, a creepy old man cut off my hair, my sister cut out my eye, my home was destroyed, and Thanos killed my brother..."
"Oh...."
"But I got a new axe!"
Don't forget his best friend Heimdall
Poor Thor. Lol
I can hear luis reading this 🤣
Drax was at Nidevelir he was just invisible
True. If you listen very carefully, you can hear some snacks being munched on in the background. The Russos are very clever.
He's mastered the art of duplication and standing still, clearly we cannot begin to fathom the true power Drax has..
He stood so still that he became one with the universe, thus allowing him to be in multiple places at once. Alas, Thor was able to hold the door alone, thus depriving us of Nando's improved storyline. Still a great movie :)
OP Drax has power of hax.
he was invisible through the entire movie really
I always thought of Thor’s plot line in Infinity War to be less of a character arc and more of the “stopping the ticking time bomb”. The stakes are that Thor needs to create Stormbreaker in time to stop Thanos. We don’t feel at ease watching his subplot because we know that his friends are in desperate need of him.
Look at it like the Helm’s Deep battle. Thor is Gandalf, off on a quest to save the day, while the Avengers are the Fellowship, fighting to the death to protect Helms Deep from the Uruk Hai. When Gandalf comes, it’s a moment of great triumph and relief, not “oh he didn’t sacrifice anything boooo”. So when Thor arrives finally at Wakanda, we get this feeling that Thor will save the day, that finally the long night is over. And then when Thor *fails*, audiences are left absolutely stunned.
Pitch perfect comparison!
Ivan Ortega’s Hair this is exactly what I was thinking
Thank you.
Exactly! This side quest was never meant to be a form of character development for Thor.
It's just like you said "a ticking time bomb". While we are balling watching Cap and co. knowing that Thanos will come any moment and destroy them so we are just edging on thor to get the hammer... he passes out... Groot makes the handle... we all cheer.
Even after all the trouble Thor still fails... THAT is the point if this quest. You go through soooooo, so much trouble nearly dying for a weapon that you know is unstoppable and yet it is stopped... it just crushes the soul of the vewier. Getting oh so close to winning and still losing. THAT is the point of the quest, Nando V Movies.
This is such an excellent point. Nando claiming that Thor has to sacrifice something to be compelling or for him to have growth... that just doesn't need to happen to every character every movie. Besides, Thor NOT killing Thanos when he could have will haunt him going into the next film. Thats where his growth in this saga will occur.
that ending line really hit
How does this comment only have 28 likes after 2 years but is also at the very top.
@@bashfulbreloom9294 fr
I pretty much disliked the entire video until that line landed.
The point of infinity war, is that the avengers are not willing to make the sacrifices that Thanos does. Whether it be the life of vision, the life of Tony Stark, or the life of Gomora, the avengers fail where Thanos succeeds . Having Drax sacrifice himself undermines the theme of the entire movie. Just my thoughts.
I agree with that thought
Ferrite Productions I think Strange would have let Tony die if he didn't see him playing apart in defeating Thanos
But they had to sacrifice Vision in the long run anyway, so how is that different from this?
But this isn't true... multiple characters were willing to make the necessary sacrifices. Star-Lord would have killed Gamora if it weren't for Thanos, Wanda literally killed Vision to save everyone, and I would say that Strange sacrificed himself and everyone else who died by the Snap in order to eventually save everyone in the endgame. The whole movie is about making sacrifices and the sacrifices our heroes have already made.
@@nas7416
But the only character who makes the necessary sacrifices without hesitation is Thanos. Everyone else in the movie waits too long hoping they don't have to sacrifice anything.
Im thinking of re-naming it... *The Destroyer* Goosebumps immediately
yes yes yes yes omg yaaas
I actually said "Ohhh! That's Brilliant!" aloud when i heard the suggested name
Meh, the name's already taken lol
Commander Shepard Oh Yeah... But it's gone now
Obry I got chills, how is he so good!
I'm not a fan of this mindset with fiction as a whole, but especially superhero films, that nothing matters and nothing feels justified unless someone dies. For me, the whole axe-forging sequence was interesting just because of how insurmountable the challenge was. They had to find a way restart a forge the size of a small city, and keep the fires of a literal star going.
It's just a sidequest. No one needs to die. Did anyone die when Aragorn went to enlist the ghost army? Did anyone die when Ron and Hermione went to destroy Hufflepuff's cup?
I do like the idea of naming the weapon after a dead character, though.
Cometmoon448 To be fair the ghost army was one of the weakest parts of that otherwise masterpiece of a film.
It's not the death that's important, it's the character development (or in this case, lack thereof). The "sidequest" was pointless in that it was useless for its protagonist's growth. It was, as you said, just a fetch quest, which is a waste of screentime. It was just something for Thor and company to do so that they wouldn't be idle and for us to still feel like they were important. (Which was more than we got for people like Captain America or Black Widow).
Killing off a character is just one of many tropes that are used to generate stakes.
By the way, the events described in this video are now my headcanon. Nando, please come up with a reason for Thor to take so long to reach Thanos!
Pedro Ciambra
Mmm. It was hardly a "waste of screentime" in my opinion. Seeing them get the giant discs moving again was pretty exciting to watch. Plus, the whole sequence provided some much needed down-time to break up the action where Thor and Rocket had some meaningful interaction, which I never knew I wanted!
Pedro Ciambra Well, Ragnarok killed almost everything Thor had left and Infinity War killed the rest of it. When you destroy and break a character completely, it just stands to reason that said character will rise up again to greater hights. In order for Ragnarok and the intro to IW to feel satisfying, Thor needs to actually do something, so the loss of everything he had was not just wasted. I guss the quest itself didn't have to much character development, but it did make the rest of Thors journey worth it in the end. Basically strenghening his previus development.
Pluss, Groot gets his stick out of his ass and does something, finally showing him regain some of his earlier character traits.
Also, what left did he have to sacrifice exactly? It's made pretty clear during the movie that he has nothing else to loose. He says it hmself. "What more do i have to loose?"
It could be argued that Loki's death should have been saved for the quest, but his death served a completely different purpose. To show Thanos as a lgtimate threat and to set the stakes for his journey and fight with the Avengers later. Thanos just killing Heimdal wouldn't really have given too much of a impact... but to see hm kill the guy whos faked death twice is quite intimidating. His death was needed to give Thanos entrance emotional impact.
Cometmoon448 Im not a fan fan of trying to kill off drax, I loved the forge scene and it didnt leave me wanting anything more
I audibly said aww at thor renameing his hammer
fucking same!
I was NOT expecting that to hit THAT hard.
I did too!
OMFG I just did the same thing and then scrolled down and saw this jfc
I said "...fuck"
Holy fucking shit that last part about renaming it to “the destroyer” was so good. This way is much more emotional and I like it but I also don’t want drax to be permanently dead because he’s one of my fav characters. I did not expect this to be this good
These are SO good, but please stop making me pine for movies that don’t exist haha
I'm thinking of naming it... *looks at Rocket and Groot*... The Destroyer
I shit you not that actually gave me chills. Great content as always!
Dan Mallaburn dude same! That’s what I enjoyed the most out of the video, that would’ve been so insane!
i think i got some dirt in my eye, not a tear at all
I literally gasped out loud. At first I was like but Thor's life is pretty sucky right now he doesn't need that. But then I heard the name and it all became worth it.
Valiant Videos Oh? Why's that?
Maybe because you put water in his eyes. Anyway, Yeah, that end is soooo good.
To be fair Thor has lost nearly everything in the span of two movies, so to me this is the end of his arc where he had already faced the stake and learnt his lesson (Thor Ragnorok) and rightfully earn the power he deserves, which is why we audience feel so satisfied seeing Thor get the almighty Stormbreaker and become as powerful as we expect him to be even though we are fully aware of his survival. It won’t work in any other scenario, but because Thor’s story arc was developed from the very beginning we care about his despair and resolve, and this makes a good long-term story telling.
Wong Chak Lam plus he lost everything at the beginning of the film
The problem with this is is that Drax doesn’t mean anything to Thor. He met Drax 20 minutes ago, his loss will be minuscule compared to the loss of Heimdall, Loki, etc. Drax’s death won’t do anything for Thor’s arc.
I think the point is Thor learns something from drax and feels for him in the small amount of time they have together
Much like Spider-man's scene with Tony, this would have definitely gotten a tear or two out of me.
Man, I'd cry enough tears to freeze Nidavellir again.
This video has given me the Guardians emotional content I've been looking for through all of Infinity War. This was great.
Thanks!
Whyre you trying to further emotionally damage me. That wouldve hurt my soul to watch. Fantastic work Nando!
Thanks!
"Thor doesn't experience any growth or loss in this movie."
5 minutes later "Thor is still dealing with the loss of his brother."
Halskitchen yeah Immediately disagreed with this video.
If you want the IW commentary, the Russo brothers love adding depth to character from previous movies.
Thor lost everything in ragnarok, only to lose more in IW. He was owed stormbreaker.
Not to mention Thor had to kick start the forge and nearly died in the process. AND Groot became important again sacrificing his arm to create the weapon.
Halskitchen YES!!!
Out of everyone aside from Thanos, Thor has lost everything which is reinforced when he talked with Rocket, he even said "What more could I lose." Thor's mother was killed, his father died, his home destroyed, his people slaughtered, his best friend was killed and then he was forced to watch his brother die right in front of him, he was even left to die in space, Thor is owed Stormbreaker.
I think Nando framed his argument wrong by stating Thor didnt lose anything, but he's still right in that Thor didnt learn from that detour mission, and this rewrite would still make for a great amendment to the film. Thor did lose everything, but given his "nothing left to lose" monologue, it seems he didnt learn how to recover from that loss as a hero would, and Drax's sacrifice and speech about things getting better with your new family of imbeciles is exactly the kind of point to complete Thor's heroic arc, in addition to the power upgrade. It would be especially poignant and still in line with the overall "logical vs emotional sacrifice" themes of the movie if, as another commenter said, Drax in his last words to Thor asked for him to plunge the weapon deep into Thanos's heart, to which Thor obliges, only for him to respond with "shouldve aimed for the head".
Also, Groot's arm grew back immediately, so that was a plot device not a sacrifice.
In this SUBPLOT, not the whole movie
EXACTLY. He lost his mom, his dad, Asgard and Loki
Man you're so good at this
too good.
I think Thor does grow during the whole Nidavellir sequence. At the beginning of Infinity War, we see Thor in restraints, unable to break free and fight Thanos even with his newfound power from Ragnarok. After he loses Loki, we see him at his lowest point in the entire series; broken, bloodied, and powerless. His journey to Nidavellir is his journey to regain his full power and during this, he DOES realize that there are still things he can lose once he befriends Groot and Rocket.
I think the point of forging Stormbreaker, beyond giving Thor an upgrade against Thanos, was to renew his resolve and his confidence in his own abilities, both of which he gained in Ragnarok but to a great extent lost at the beginning of Infinity War. The weapon being forged in the manner it was lets him feel something other than just deep loss and self-doubt from being unable to save his people and family. He is able to have a success without suffering extreme loss. I feel like having a character be sacrificed to forge the weapon would be counter-productive if anything. It would mean that no matter what he does, people around him have to die, and for death and suffering being necessary to gain something would push him into Thanos territory. As it is, it lets him defy Thanos's cynicism and he comes to represent what Thanos isn't.
Rodin the Seer although I really enjoy the version were drax sacrifices himself but good point my dood
Fully agree. Thor didn't need to lose anything here because he's already lost everything. This was a journey to find the weapon, but more importantly to find his resolve
yeah, at least drax would be an important piece in the defeat of thanos
they could at least have thanos send someone after him, so something would happen
All of the dwarves were killed what more would you have? The place was shut down and Eitri also lost his hands in the culling. What can be said is the loss was not gratified enough to make it a detriment to viewers. (we didn't feel the losses as the dwarves weren't set up from before)
I'm a bit late to the party here, but I feel like Thor lost his home, half of his people, his father, his mother, his brother (maybe??), his eye, and his hammer that pulled him off. The journey to create his new weapon and his personal growth through hardship are more tied into Thor: Ragnarok. In that movie, even though he beats Hela, he still loses because Asgard is destroyed, only for them to escape just to be assaulted by Thanos at the end. He didn't need more growth as a character because all of his growth came in Ragnarok.
That's how I look at it anyways.
And then in Infinity War, he immediately gets another eye, finds new people, a new weapon, and the things he did permanently lose were all part of a self-repeating ritual.
I'm just saying....Infinity War isn't the issue in Thor's arc.
Except he doesn't find new people and still looses more.
Kye Dysarthria I mean, yeah, since we’ve now gotten confirmation that Love and Thunder will be before a still as of yet hypothetical team-up with the Guardians...you’re right.
the problem with your logic at the start of the video is that Thor already DID pay a heavy price at the start of his arc, he literally lost everything he had already. Not to mention the stakes were high considering he almost died just trying to forge it.
in my opinion at least, him losing everyone he loved was part of the stormbreaker journey.
The T-Rex in your Basement INC. well with that logic, the ending of Infinity War was predictable since Spidey 2, Black Panther 2, Guardians 3, Dr Strange 2 are movies set to release so in that case no one dies
Not important? The Survivors will grief. They lost everyone around them. Cap - Bucky, Tony - Peter, Okoye - T'Challa. WE know they will come back, but seeing them die was kinda hard to watch. Seeing your favourite Avengers see their friends die didnt feel important for you?
Why nowadays everyone tries to be more clever than the movie itself? =\
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
He was saying that Thor didint change on this adventure or sacrifice anything on this adventure.
Although this would have been amazing, it would mean we'd miss out on "Why is Gamora?" so I have to disagree with you here
Edit: I've just realised they could give Mantis that line so I'm completely on board with this now
Addy 0302 why is gamora what?
B. C. Sharpe when is gamora?
Everyone's saying where, who and why is Gamora but no one ever asks *how is Gamora* :((
nightwing1121 dead
But we could keep
- I can stand it.
- No, you can't.
- He's right, you can't.
Why did I cry at this?? Good job!!
Thanks!
My thought was that Thor has already paid a heavy price that put him on the path to get the weapon. And his growth in Thor 3 almost puts him to be a fully realized character. In my opinion a price like Drax dying shouldn't be needed. I do like your idea that Drax shows Thor how he can love again and that there is always something to lose. I just don't think it necessary to complete the arc for acquiring storm-breaker. Just my thoughts, I like your videos. New subscriber!
Thor already lost so much his hair his hammer his mom his dad his sister his brother his best friend but he got a new weapon so win win
Louis Adams you forgot some of the asgardians also died
some or all
he lost his eye
Thats not a win win. A win win would be like me giving someone a game i dont like but they love and they do the same for me. Mutually beneficial. Thor losing everything he loves and getting a new weapon is not what i would call a win win
Louis Adams “his hair” 😂😂😂
I highly disagree with you, if they made Thor's quest like you want it to be, it would be too overwhelming to keep track of every event. Thor's quest is a slow burn journey that gives the audience room to breathe after some intense drama and actions, like taking a walk with a close friend whom now you know had lost everything (his house, his car, his family in an accident...) but still manage to put on a smile and go to his last job interview. Finally seeing him success (sort of) is the most satisfying moment
This is terrible, if drax goes with thor then the best joke of the movie doesn’t happen, you should just quit right now.
Jk that was really good
I agree completely. This would be perfect, but because it comes at the expense of "Why is Gamora?", I have no choice but to sentence it to death.
Yess.. and we don't get Drax turning into brickx
What could happen is that in Nando's version, Nidavellier just so happens to be a short detour or even on the way to Titan...
Thor explains his quest. Rabbit wants to go with him and be the Captain.
Have Gamora show on the ships spacemap that they can still travel together until the two teams have to finally diverge.
Thor eats Starlord's food and then prep the secondary pod while Starlord and Gamora get interrupted by invisible Drax.
Have the scene end with Starlord telling him to go already.
Team Thor bids Team Morons goodbye.
As I finished I realise that Drax is two of the best scenes on the movie.
1. The invisible Drax.
2. Why is Gamora?
This cannot be done. Rip Nando
William L. uhh dude, nando adapts the invisible drax joke in his version of the story. it's at 4:20
Christian Nicholas But Mantis’s reaction kind of makes the Joke
First of all, Thor has lost almost everything. Loki, his mom, his dad, his eye, his hammer, his beautiful loreal hair, his whole planet and half his people. What more do you want from him? He is one of the, if not the most tragic character in the MCU. Yet, he smiles. And I feel like he needed that arc, after so much loss. This arc rejuvenated Thor. Also, I feel like this movie, it's not about the development of other characters, because they are already well developed characters. This movie is about Thanos and the consequences of his actions.
A like for the " his beautiful loreal hair" make me laught for real. and also i like your comment.
3/4 of his people. Another half would have died in the snap
The point was that the scene itself didn't have many stakes...
If nothing changed they should have just cuted that mission from the movie...I'm not sure if the way that the video fixes the problem is the best one, but I do think that mission was the weakes part of the movie...
Pratik Brahma
That’s why he made Drax say ‘there’s always more to lose’
Pratik Brahma i agree that thor has lost a lot but this doesn’t change the fact that the stormbreaker arc has no stakes
I'd cry so much if Thor actually named his new hammer "Destroyer". It'd be so amazing. Thanks, Nando
That's a great way to describe it. I honestly didn't make that connection until you said it.
Nando v Movies what?
B. C. Sharpe Destroyer was the robot that Thor destroyed in his first movie. Naming it destroyer is symbolic of Drax's suffix as the Destroyer,and also one of Asgard's most powerful weapon,the Destroyer.
At least that's how I see it.
Just off the first minute I don't think "nobody changes" is a good statement. Groot clearly has character growth here. The whole movie he was playing his games doing nothing to help but at the moment Thor needed it the most, he helped complete the hammer.
this made me cry, i love drax and i agree the thor arc felt empty. thank you.
My entire reason for believing that this *specific* trio gets the weapon created, is based off of WHO is there, and what happens.
Thor: Has lost *everything*. Family, homeland, best friend, WEAPON....so the SECOND he pinpoints something, ANYTHING that would allow him to wreak havoc on all of that? He's on it, full-stop.
Rocket: JUST learned to be a more compassionate person, that works as a team and helps support people when he *himself* isn't able to get the job done by himself.
Groot: Recently reborn, has seen may situations where he needs to learn to work with "his family", and grow past the self-centered'ness of being a child/teenager.
So Thor, wanting his vengeance and needing a new weapon to accomplish it....Rocket, assessing that "Yeah, this guy is the real deal, both mentally and physically, let's help him get it done", and Groot growing (literally) as a person to help *both* of his compatriots reach their goals....it's pretty big.
And, frankly, we NEEDED a "win" at this point, thematically. Vision was beat to hell, everyone that tangled with Thanos was defeated, people were killed -- almost callously -- to see The Mad Titans' goals reach fruition....so we NEEDED one of the heroes to have a really, REALLY big win.
Was it? Well, no, obviously. Rocket got distracted during the Wakanda fight, by either wanton destruction or envy of Bucky's arm. Groot was doing what Groot does, but *also* had people respecting him while doing it, which PROBABLY prevented him from thinking clearly enough to try to STOP the Big Raisin from accomplishing his goals.
As for Thor? Well, we legit thought he had a shot. He had the weapon. He had the timing, the strength, the EVERYTHING. But....wouldn't you know it, we caught him (trying to) monologue'ing at the villain. Aaaaaaand SNAP.
Honestly, we needed the win, we needed the THOUGHT that we could get it done.....just so it gets ripped away from us, to make a compelling 2nd chapter. We're at the halfway mark, kids, that's how movies like this WORK.
I think this sub-plot is for the change of teenage groot from a childish video game player to being somewhat mature.And thor already lost his home, his brother, his best friend and half of his people. But great video by the way.
Kinda disagree, sometimes a scene/moment is just that a scene/moment. Technically Thor suffered a shit ton of loss before getting stormbreaker. Mjolnir was destroyed, his brother and father died, his home was obliterated.
This is more of an empowering moment, Thor is fully realized here, he doesn't need too much arc now. Its a story of a man humbled brought back to power, humbled again and brought back to power again. His line also soldifies it, When Rocket asked what if he is ering and Thanos defeated him, he said "well I've got nothing to lose now." His loss is so much at this point you dont need another loss for him.
Dude i thought and commented the same before i saw your comment. The forge scene is basically the finale of ragnorok.
Totally agree with you dude. His arc is finalised in this movie, he already lost so much in prior movies and this one as well (Loki), this is his moment now.
Great name
Thor shouldn’t need a weapon, he is the god of THUNDER, he spent the entirety of the last movie learning that. This complete 180 bothers me soo much, ughhh. >_
this isn't about him needing to suffer more. It's about him learning to be able to move forward and not let his loss consume him like it consumed Thanos. He needs to learn that he can forge new families continuing the message from Guardians 2 and that he has everything left to lose, well half of everything
Drax wouldn’t’ve been vaporized. His mastery of standing completely still would’ve allowed him to appear. completely. invisible.
Which, as we all know, makes you immune to damage from sunlight.
Light can't hit you if you're invisible.
"thinking of renaming it, The Destroyer"... You made me tear up. Imagine that happened. It would have been perfect. Thanks for the beautiful rewrite Nando, you always know how to hit the feels.
Have to disagree, Nando!
I think Thor being a static character in the film is of major importance to the script and its theme.
Every character in the movie chooses to “trade lives” or willingly lose something in order to win, except for Thor. And that’s what makes Thor the most successful hero at the end of everything.
His differentiating development adds another layer of depth and discussion to the movie’s themes and meaning- imo.
So Thor losing every other Asgardian isn't payment enough. Loki was strangled right in front of him.... motivation, yeah we're good.
Thor is also the only one in the movie that fully risks death in order to kill/ stop Thanos. Vision isn’t allowed becausethey try to save him via rerouting Enron’s. Cap doesn’t risk anything black panther is in and everything proof suit. Tony never has to sacrifice him self strange immediatelygives up the stone. Thor is the only one to put his life fully on the line no questions asked not knowing if he’ll live or die.
I agree with this
Thor didn't have a choice. That's the difference.
Every one else did.
Oh I was replying to @DickWhite
Thor's entire character arc was that his mother died, Odin died, Loki died, Heimdell died, all asgardians died, and Asgaurd is destroyed. Thor is mid character arc when the film opens. He doesn't even believe Stormbreaker will kill Thanos, the entire point is he has no more choices and this is his last resort. So your entire point that Stormbreaker comes at no cost fundementally doesn't work for me. He has lost everything before resorting to Stormbreaker, he literally has nothing left to lose. Part of the reason Infinity War is such an epic movie is how its able to continue character arcs that weren't complete before. While I really like your alternative idea and it would of worked for a more traditional movie, this is one of the rare times I like what was in the film itself and was completely satisfied with it. Thor is at his lowest point, so when he returns with Stormbreaker to save the day its immensly satisfying.
Smokydogy nailed it.
That is pure gold. Yes I agree that each new development must be with costs. That little change would have been mind blowing. Nando, you are a work of art. Please do other movies apart from dc, marvel and star wars. Respect from Nepal
Thanks! I've got some non Marvel/DC/Star Wars ones on the horizon.
Dude, I'm from Nepal too.
Awesome. I know very little about Nepal except that it's my favorite Overwatch map. Whats cool about Nepal?
"Bungee jumping and all kinds of Adrenalin tourism , mountains to tropics within 200 km, Awesome for trekking, relatively lower costs of travelling and smile everywhere." I just made it sound like a tourist ad.
Nando v Movies please do a quiet place pleaseeee
"One day... you will have imbeciles." I love it. You just get him. You have a gift, sir.
Frankly, my biggest problem with the stormbreaker scene is that it undoes a lot of what Ragnarok tried to do. Thor's missing eye and learning to harness the lightning without his hammer were major growing points for the character, and it just sort of reverts those lessons in this film. It's still a great movie, and Thor rocks in it, it just kind of bugs me.
Yes! At some point, I asked myself, “Do the Russo brothers have some sort of vendetta against Taika Waititi?” IW pretty much invalidated almost everything Ragnarok set up.
I thought of that too, but I think he can still use the lightning without the hammer, he just needed a weapon that can actually hurt Thanos.
Ultra Nerd They probably didn’t agree with his version of Thor. I personally wasn’t a huge fan of what Taika Waititi did so I was on board with what the Russos did.
How did losing his eye teach Thor anything? For me it felt random and unnecessary. And a bit forced.
And he still lacks his eye, he just has a prosthetic now.
Ultra Nerd iron man still uses arc reactor after ironman3. Its the same thing
I think the issue with adding this would be... well, Thor's loss was that he didn't go for a headshot. We haven't fully seen the fall out and the guilt from that yet. After losing his world, his entire family, all his friends and people, balancing it with a sidequest that seemingly turned out perfectly was a good emotional balance. I felt like getting Stormbreaker was the payoff for his guilt and loss from the beginning of the film (and the previous) but THEN he is knocked off that pedestal again by failing to stop Thanos right at the moment it was most crucial.
Like you said, it's hard to tell what is a problem and what isn't without the whole picture. And I think what you suggested works emotionally. But I do feel like Thor does have half his arc already in place. Not to mention killing Drax would really skew the future of the Guardians stuff given that they've already lost a member (I know almost all of them are technically dead, but the likelihood of the dust-deaths being permanent is slim. The others I'm hoping will be permanent or that's just cheap). Nebula and Quill are going to be hit hardest by losing Gamora, and losing Drax as well would throw off their dynamic even further and make balancing Quill and Nebula's very different emotions and connections in their grief way harder to achieve - because there's another bit of grief to balance in there.
I do think it'd be interesting if Thor went off with the Guardians for a while after the events of IW part 2 (providing he lives), but I'm not sure he needed his arc wrapped up in one film. Generally this film felt a lot more like a pay-off-spectacle rather than a character development film - except for Thanos, who needed the time to develop.
Just... ah idk, Thor has had a LOT of development because of Thor 3 and he didn't feel like the priority to focus on?
Exactly. I was saying his sacrifice came before all of it when he lost literally everything before that moment. AND I was saying he should TOTALLY join the GotG after all of this is over, since he has no one and fits in with them nicely.
After Thor Ragnarok, Thor became one of the well-loved from one of the least acknowledged characters in the MCU. Even then, I think he had a pretty big highlight with IW (because, well, Thor 1 and especially 2). If there's a character that we didn't see so much growth from, aside from the facial hair, that would probably be Captain America. He just showed up, brought the team to Wakanda, had a new shield, fought. I like IW overall and I liked Nando's take on "fixing" it. But, like we all know, this is just the first half. Maybe those who did not receive any spotlight would have theirs in 4.
I think thats what the Russo's said in an interview, Thor weakness is he didn't go for headshot. He wanted a "monologue" to Thanos as he kills him and that becomes Thor's ultimate regrets.
+Benjie I totally agree. I love Cap's growth when it happens, but he really hasn't changed much since Winter Soldier (it's a total shame because Chris Evans is talented, but even his reaction to Bucky dissolving was... REALLY muted) unlike Thor who has completely changed VERY recently.
+Elton Really? That's super interesting! I'd actually thought that Nando's fix was going to be related to making that moment a lot more brunt (I've my own thoughts on what they could have done with Dr Strange's prediction to make that "Should have aimed for the head" moment doubly defeating, but I don't know enough about Strange's powers to know if it'd work)
+Mean Bean Yeah :-0 I think, especially given Gamora dying, he'd interact very interestingly with Quill and Nebula (Nebula in PARTICULAR, since Thor's relationship with Loki was complicated and he might be able to help Nebula with any conflict she has with regards to her own dead sibling)
Hans Cap will have a wayy more screen time and development in the next movie. I can feel it. He will be have a more central part in that movie. And I think he is a bit muted because he is a bit of a stoic character (in some ways). So I think sometimes they would rather him not say much or give much away about how he feels as it could feel a bit out of character if done wrong. With that being said though, I think his reaction shows exactly how he feels. He's sitting down on the ground and his facial expression shows disbelief and pain. I thought he was going to cry a bit or show tears. For the first time in all his appearances, he looks like he has been defeated.
The interesting thing about the Thor detour in the film is that, you're right, Thor doesn't get a real arc in it, but Groot does. In the beginning of the film he is disinterested and disenfranchised with everything, y'know, like a teenager. After seeing what lengths Thor is willing to go to to combat Thanos, he changes his mind and helps create Stormbreaker. He then partakes in the big fight at the end because he has grown to recognise the significance of the events.
Oliver Tomkins Agreed, though you could argue that Groot could still have his arc in this version.
Dad?
I thought the fact that Thor *didn't* learn that lesson was key to his ultimate failure. He was still stuck on revenge, so he made sure to hit Thanos in the chest instead of the head, so he could look him in the face and taunt him instead of finishing the job.
Wait, but what about "why is Gamora"?
We're gonna lose that if Drax goes!
I feel like that could have worked as a Mantis line
I do think that it seems more like a Drax line than Mantis. It feels weaker if it was her.
Also, I feel like the exposition from Drax is a bit too long winded or something. It just doesn't feel to me that it fits him. I like the touches of "imbeciles", but is Drax the kind of character who has long monologues? Has he done that before? Or am I just forgetting?
Also, if Drax dies, then what will happen to the future Guardian of the Galaxy?
I mean, it works well, but I still feel that Drax dying naturally is not what was intended, and in order to keep them together, he had to go by Thanos' snap.
Did he ever call the hammer Stormbreaker in the film?
1. Yeah that's true.
2. His talk with Peter in Guardians 2 about how Gamora doesn't dance is about the same length. He talks like that occasionally, usually about his wife and daughter.
3. Yeah it would change the team big time but I think his arc ending at Infinity War would be worth losing him.
4. Thats fair.
5. I'm pretty sure Eitri names it early in their conversation.
2. Right, so that works.
3. Perhaps he could come back in 4? Apparently they are considering some sort of time-travel/alternate reality shenanigans.
5. Firstly, Beta Ray Bill appeared in Ragnarok as one of the statues on the building with the Hulk's face.
Secondly, Thor could always just give him the name of the weapon and call it Yarnboirng or something. They will rectify it. They are not going to let it sit if Beta Ray Bill does come on.
Thor could have join the guardians in vol 3 in this scenario.
Personally I'm hoping that Valkyrie will team up with them (taking elements from the Angela character).
This is the first time I've disagreed with you, thor's price was paid at the beginning of the movie when he lost half of what was left of asgard, heimdall, and loki. Thats why he was so near suicidal in achieving his goals. It just kind of feels to me you have a problem bc it didn't happen in that order. Youre suggestion for change isnt bad at all but I feel its coming from a flawed sentiment.
Stephen G Agree
True
This is exactly what I thought when watching this video.
Yep, this is the first time for me as well, it felt like he had to do a video for Infinity War so he pushed out whatever he could.
Worded perfectly, agreed
Hm, I thought people would be more upset with killing of Drax but most seem to like this suggestion a lot. Great vid btw!
Thanks!
It probably helps that he dies at the end anyway
At least this way he gets something cool and meaningful to do before he sorta-maybe-allegedly is poofed out of existence forever.
Of course I'm in the camp that thinks that pretty much *all* Snap victims will be returned at the cost of some if not all of the original Avengers in A4, so Drax can still get a moment, whereas any non-Snap death probably *is* permanent, so Nando's suggestion would be writing off Bautista for the rest of the MCU with absolute certainty.
But Drax can't withstand the force of the star , he no Thor.
I think star Lord should of lived since he was the reason why thanos wins and he would have to face the guilt of being the reason that half the universe is dead.
Goddamn that was amazing. When you were describing drax’s lines, and then “the destroyer” at the end, I was nearly brought to tears. And if I saw that in the movie, I definitely would have cried. Amazing.
I only have one problem with this
Drax dies
y u do dis?
Yeah I'd say he would be in the same condition as Thor was after words, barely alive, but he could be healed
I'll do you one better, who u do dis?
I agree. At most he should be too injured to engage in physical combat. He should show up at the battle in the pod and help from in there.
Dragon Ball Black He didn't die, he just became invisible by standing still.
He dies anyway, this death is more meaningful
“Someday, you too will have imbeciles”
Eitri: Where is the handle?
Rocket: I’ll do you one better, what is the handle?
Drax: I’ll do you one better! Why is the handle?
Potato Factory Films why would rocket not know what a handle is
CaptN Mexico I guess I was thinking of it more along the lines of him asking for more information on the handle.
Well that and that everyone else there was either unconscious or only able to say three words in a particular order lol
Potato Factory Films sorry man, drax is already dead when they make the new hammer
Mint Savanna
True, I just really loved that line.
Thor was the antagonist to Thanos' protagonist. He gets what he wants - but does not ultimately succeed. From a Campbellian story perspective, his story arc ends in defeat at the atonement with the father stage. I'd compare it to, say, Hans Gruber from Die Hard. He has to go through a struggle but is still mostly successful with his plan until the very end, when he gets the treasure he wants but his plans are fouled by Mcclain. Then he, uhh, dies. So it's not a perfect example. But I think you get the point.
If Thor doesn't come to terms with his loss in the next movie, then all this goes out the window. But I don't think this addition or change to the story is necessary.
“If Thor comes to terms with his loss.....”
Hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahahahaha
I know that this is basically fanfic, but damn... this touched me
god me too!!
I think the conversation between Rocket and Thor about what he has lost was one of best moments.something I thought of in the above mentioned dialogue is that Thor is way more funny to hide the loss he is feeling and is kinda hinted in the conversation.
These are good ideas, don't get me wrong, but if the movie unfolded this way we'd be missing out on the humour and tension that Drax brought to the scenes he was in. Also, as others have mentioned, there was character growth for Groot that would be overshadowed by Drax dying.
Everything Nando has done has been gold.
But this ain't it.
The loss in a 15-1 football season, if you will
People keep bringing this up. Am i the only one whose favorite part is this whole thing?
Nope.
Dark Sev. That saga was the whole "quest for magic object that fixes everything" but it doesnt (wooooo broke expectations). The lesson is that Thor wouldnt be abble to do it without Rocket ans Groot (AKA friends) and the weapon is made out of a damn limb. My only promlem was Groot's lack of emotion. The rest was fine.
Hes a tree i dont expect much emotion from a tree and its a teen age tree so just imagine
Muguel Cydhhd teen age tree... a treenager?
But he was full of emotional behavior in the GotG movies, and teenagers are super emotional either
I disagree there are emotional stakes for Thor and an evolution of Groot. The scene where Thor is telling us about all that he has lost is what sets up emotional stakes. He needed stormbreaker to avenge the last relative he had Loki. He also realises in the same scene how much he really lost. Groot also evolved as he became heroic when he cut off his arm to forge the axe. He finally looks up from his game and helps the people around him.
What I found funny about this part of the movie is that the emotional journey was Groot’s. He went from being stuck to his games and not caring about anything to chopping his own arm off to help someone he barely knows. Then by the end, he’s dead.
It feels like everyone who has an emotional arc winds up having their time cut short. While everyone who doesn’t move at all are the ones left behind. Tony stays the same, Doctor Strange sacrifices himself and his singular motivation for a greater purpose. Steve is self-assured that trading lives is not something to be done, Wanda is convinced by Vision to go through with it anyway. Starlord doesn’t wanna kill Gamora, but decides to go through with it anyway to save her from suffering, then once he learns that Thanos killed her, he goes apeshit and decks him, waking him up. Thanos respected him for being willing to make a bold choice, then gets annoyed by his passion because it makes him keep flip-flopping. Black Panther is wiped out after being willing to change his mind about keeping Wakanda isolationist. Peter Parker is wiped out after being convinced that he really was just a kid who didn’t belong in a crisis of this scale. Bucky’s entire character is about shifting personalities and figuring out how he really is.
Everyone main character who changed in this movie wound up dead. Everyone that Thanos met who didn’t budge survived. So it feels even worse. All of the people who were evolving and learning have that journey cut short. It’s almost as if Thanos admired people who stuck to their guns and the Gauntlet let those kinds of people live.
Personally it seems like a specific choice because, realistically, they probably won't have time for those emotional arcs in the second part either. Almost everyone who got turned to dust are those with a lot of potential for new storylines, and those who stayed don't have must more to look at... which to me makes me think a lot of them won't live. Particularly Tony, since Strange gave up to keep him alive (so he'll probably do something later to save the day, and maybe won't survive, which also makes sense that he had that conversation with Pepper at the beginning)
I actually think you tapped on a deeper thematic intent of the film. It's about the consequences of people caving in to emotion, in a sense, as opposed to a stone cold logic.
You made me realize. If the people who survived had development, what would be left for the cast of part 2?
Marcus Chang exactly, this is what gets vision killed in the end as apossed to if the hereos had done it earlier
There are three occasions in the movie when a character chooses to sacrifice someone they love. One is blocked by Thanos, and another is reversed by Thanos. Only Thanos' own sacrifice is effective.
One of the themes is that the good guys "don't trade lives" - as a character from a different franchise puts it: "no compromise, even in the face of armageddon".
The alternative justifies wiping out a third of the universe if it would prevent Thanos from getting his hands on all six Stones.
"no one grows" uh, Groot Jr. was a moody teen before that climactic scene
Can't choose between this or "Why is Gamora?" This would be up there with the sad deaths of Loki, Peter, and
Gamora
Don't forget maybe-Heimdall and slightly-Vision.
Ye i dont think i could deal with losing drax after all that
A Wild Ymarc Appeared! Gamora's death was weak
PS--"Why is Gamora?" was Bautista improving--it wasn't in the script. Dude's fantastic.
A Wild Ymarc Appeared! I kinda wished this happens so the new hammer can be called the destroyer and drax gets to die thinking thor will avenge his own family, drax and draxes family
Then Drax flies over to the platform, he closes his eyes and says, "My nipples"
That’s the point though. Thor’s arrogance is reaffirmed by his “rebirth” at the hands of stormbreaker. This leads to his failure to kill Thanos the end. His “loss” is a further extension of his original loss; his failure to save the day.
The dialogue he came up with for the characters was really convincing,he has a pretty good grasp of the characters' personalities and the way they talk
hands down one of my new favorite channels
hands down one of my favorite new commenters.
You aren't looking at it the right way. Thor loses Everything and in the wake of that loss the Revenge is what drives him to get what he needs. He already paid the tole. he literally just fought his sister to save his people right before thanos comes and crashes the party, kills his best friend and brother. hes lost his hammer, his father, his home, half his people, his brother, his best friend. to take a line from thor himself.. what else has he got to lose?
This isn't a single movie, thors ark has been completed over a few movies. not a single movie. if you try to wrap up stuff in a single movies.. MCU wouldn't be as good. the characters are built over every movie.
HORSEDICKoMPEG YES! Thank you. That's what I was thinking. Not to mention you literally see Thor shed a tear. The God of thunder cries as he recounts everything he's lost. If Thor crying isn't growth, I don't know what is.
Yeah, I was just setting there kind of blown away that he missed it. like all the stuff your asking for they've done. lol
I like your idea, but I have a major criticism of it. Which is the idea that "we don't trade lives"
The reason why the good guys are likely going to win is because of this idea, that sacrificing your friends is never worth the cost. And while I think your idea greatly improves that arc, it works against the major idea of the movie.
but even on the good guys' side, many of the heroes are willing to trade lives. Drax sacrificing himself would be no different from Gamora making Quill promise to kill her, or Scarlet Witch acquiescing to Vision's wish to destroy him when there was no other option
the difference with the good guys' idea of "trading lives" and thanos' is that the heroes do it out of their own volition. Whether or not they choose to save lives at the cost of their own, it's their decision that they make for the greater good. On the other hand, while Thanos also believes his actions are for the greater good, he is destroying lives arbitrarily without their consent, without their heroism.
in that sense, nando's idea is a great addition to the theme, for both Drax and Thor. For Drax, we see from his rash engagement with Thanos on Knowhere that his personal vendetta still holds priority over thinking about how to stop Thanos effectively. By sacrificing himself to forge the weapon, his arc would be complete-his bloodlust and personal motivations would be replaced with an altruistic sacrifice that would bring an end to Thanos (supposedly) and bring him to peace.
Thor (in the new arc that nando describes) would see that he doesn't have to fight alone, and that friends and family are why we are willing to fight for our lives in the first place. With his new weapon as a constant reminder that he holds responsibility to those who have given up their lives, he will be better equipped to face Thanos
of course Drax's sacrifice will be (seemingly) in vain and Thor will have failed to hold up his duty, but like the other characters' arcs they will be resolved in the next movie.
sp0pie i see what your saying but zorlox's point still stands the point of the other sacrifices seemed to me to emphasize caps point that trading lives is a mistake.
You could certainly right, but we can't know for certain until the next movie. Both of the characters we see who choose to sacrifice a friend immediately have that decision rendered pointless. Peter's gun only shoots bubbles and scarlet witch's detonation of the mind stone is turned back.
The way I see it the movie is saying that sacrifice is ultimately meaningless, and I predict the next movie is going to be Thanos learning the meaninglessness of his own sacrifices.
Again I could certainly be wrong, but drax's sacrifice that Nando plans doesn't fit well with what the rest of the movie set as the standard for hero driven sacrifice.
4:59 - 'And someday, soon, you will have imbeciles'
I have not laughed so loudly while watching a TH-cam video in months - I discovered your channel today and I love your style!
So Loki dying wasn’t enough?
Jevin111 well if they saved lokis death for something more meaningful like that it would be.
Axel Kasai I think dying at the beginning already made that point. The arc is already satisfying as it is.
DBSTKjS I disagree that Loki and Hemidal's death makes his character arc redundant throughout the film to be frank, and Drax dying and giving the family advice would add anything substantial.
Thor already at that point knows family is important and holds them in high regard on some level. So Drax's advice would be counterintuitive since that is something Thor feels on some level. Not to mention Drax isn't the most forward thinking of warriors. He wasn't with Ronan, Ego, etc. So if he hears he would have had a chance to face Thanos head on, he would take that opportunity without a second thought, because that is the character James Gunn set up.
Not to mention his conversation with Rocket and Peter Dinklage's character already serves that purpose imo. With Infinity War it shows why Thor is a power player/the Mighty Avenger in more than one way, and it was needed for his character as well.
Jevin111 it didn't progress his development with making jarmbjorn
and Heimdal
I'd say Thor doesn't have to "pay a price" in that side journey itself. He already had his whole family killed not to mention all of his people, so of anything its reversed. He paid a heavy price first then sought the weapon to stop more from happening, only to lose even more.
Yeah but that's the issue. If he has nothing left to lose or gain from the journey then it's just wasted screen time. It wouldn't be an issue if the detour in the plot wasn't there to begin with.
There’s just one fundamental flaw on this video: Why is Gamora?
This entire video gave me chills. All your videos have made me think, but this one was in a league of its own. That was emotional.
So we lose a great character for what exactly? A lesson Thor pretty much knows already?
Yes
I think it would be better for Drax and the Guardians too. Drax was great at the First Movie but he's kind of just a silly character in Guardians 2 and IW. He's also not that important in the fight against Thanos and it would have been a great arc for him and a really touching death that we would really care about.
If not for Thor, for Drax.
@Deviant Oreo He is a better character when he's not a comic relief. I think the essence of GOTG is not in Drax being stupid. I laugh a lot in the begining of Guardians 1 and Drax wasn't even there. The essence is in the family relation they have and losing Drax would make this family grow emotionaly. And James Gunn isn't even working in the third movie so the whole Idea we have of them is going to be different from now on. I wish they have more weight and development than just being a comic relief.
At least it's a better death than proofing into a fart cloud of dust.
He dies anyway. This is just more meaningful
I usually appreciate your takes on these films, but I don't agree with this one. The way you frame the story is just piling on sentiment where there needs not be any. Thor had a heartfelt convo with Rocket, and the only real change to that moment should be Rockets retort
Did you miss the beginning? Thor wasn't on the way to Nidavellir for the LOLs. He'd been King of his people for like a day and now half of them or more are dead. His best friend (Heimdall) is dead, murdered before his eyes, along with his brother. His other friend has been forced to run away and now all that stands between Thanos doing that to his second home is nothing. He has nothing left to lose, just as Luke lost his family, to go on a dangerous adventure to try to move on and save others from this same cycle. Thor was willing to die trying to get a weapon to save the universe and nearly did, but his new friends prevented that, with Groot being so inspired by Thor that he was willing to endure the pain of pulling Stormbreaker together and cutting off his arm. Then at the end, his entry is not only a high point in the film, but a turning of the tide and a refreshing moment for the audience. Then, as the Russo's have pointed out, instead of going for the quick and easy kill, he goes for the gloating kill, which ultimately leads to the universes sorrow, something he's going to have to deal with in the next movie. His journey has many of the elements of the classic heroes journey but with some interesting subversion's to it. Frankly, it's one of the best subplots of the movie; I felt that if (IF) I had to point a finger at a weak subplot, it would be Vision's, and what seemed like his quest to die.
Can't just acknowledge a movie is already perfect. This story did not need to change.
As good as this theory is, it kills Drax forever for a short-term benefit of another character's arc. The end he got in Infinity War allows him to revive in Avengers 4 and also be in GoTG Vol. 3.
Moin Shah But it also gives Drax a meaningful end to a quest that he was never going to succeed in anyway, namely, killing Thanos.
Brenden Greenwood yes but it also dumps what's planned for his arc in GoTG Vol. 3 after Avengers 4.
I think the movie version is way better than your sugestion. The Thor ark is the favorite of alot of people who watched the movie. Thor has payed enough already and seeing him get Stormbreaker feels like a well deserved reward after all the suffering he has gone throu. Making Thor loose even more would just not work out. And drax needs to stay alive cause hes the fanfavorite for sure.
I like the suggestion in this video if we hadn't just had Ragnarok - but with Thor coming out of his largest transition to date - I totally agree with you.
He already lost his "weapon" and had to learn how to be great without it. Then, when he had gotten to the best point - he loses almost everything. His brother dies trying to save him. His people are shattered and half destroyed. Heimdall and presumably many of his other friends are just gone.
The arc in the movie to me did accomplish a lot of what this video proposes. Thor does find new friends that inspire him - and he does get a new weapon that he can now use even better.
I think Thor being "optimistic" as this video suggests would've gone completely against the tone of IW. Thor is pissed. He's got vengeance on his mind and he's doing it for fairly good reasons.
CherryNetwork Yeah. There is pleasure from having seen prievious movies, he’s had his lost already. MANY TIMES.
Tho this versjon is pretty cool on its own
100% agree, definitely my favourite part of the movie, because he has and is prepared to sacrifice so much, and even though he doesn't in the end its really nice seeing him get his reward. And the scene itself is really visually pleasing also, with the spinning rings of the star etc.
What the heck dude. You want Thor to lose something more to get this hammer? The guy just lost Asgard like 5 seconds ago, lost half of his people, lost his eye, and earlier than all that his dad. He's lost a ton already. He's already changed a lot.
That very last line actually made me say “whaaaaaaaat” out loud in a room all by myself. That caught me totally by surprise and was so freaking awesome. I LOVE the whole Drax arch and to end it with Thor calling his hammer The Destroyer was so badass. Wicked fucking dope dude. Can’t say it enough.
If you’re interpreting these characters’s archs movie by movie than you’re absolutely you’re right. But in the mcu
story archs are not contained in a single movie, but rather over the span of multiple movies. Thor has just lost his family and his people; he doesn’t need drax to teach him anything new. Thor is already willing to give his life for the chance of obtaining stormbreaker/ revenge. The Mcu is changing the game in cinematic story telling and interpreting it as if it hasn’t is just foolish.
making sacrifices is not the lesson he is teaching, the lesson is "you didnt lost everything, you still have friends, and you dont need to put all the weight on your shoulders", because thor was acting as if he was the only one that could defeat thanos,that is just half of the thruth, because he cant defeat him alone
The stakes felt pretty high.
No new Hammer = No chance of defeating Thanos.
This is your first video that I want to disagree with. I like it, elegant writing as always, I appreciate your effort but I do not feel like this would be an improvement.
This is unbelievable!!!!!! Every so often, you write some dialogue that is better than any Hollywood writer has ever created. This episode is one of those instances. AMAZING!
Thanks Simon!
"you write some dialogue that is better than any Hollywood writer has ever created."
Tad of an overstatement.
nextpkfr yeah compliment him but dont blow smoke up his ass.
Rocket 'But you'll die' Raccoon. I guarantee they'd be memes of that line if he said it again in Infinity War.
“Barnbjorn- the axe that can cut through anything!” -Rick Flagg
I think Thor did pay a price for Stormbreaker. Despite having the hammer he failed to kill Thanos and so half of the universe died and he had to watch some of his friends die. Thats a pretty high price right there.
Alex Wackett I agree thor was thinking about his own interest. As someone who helped create vision he knows the stone is in danger. He should've immediately went to earth to help the others. It probably would've helped a lot. I'm sure with thors help getting the stone out of vision without killing him would be easier.
He didn't pay that price for Stormbreaker, though, that was a completely separate thing.
It's like saying "Yeah, I paid for these chips. I gave a hobo some money earlier this week." and the cashier's just like "Man, you have to pay *me*, *now*."
Thor lost his brother, his close friend and half of his people in the first 5 mins in the film...
I’d say he lost a lot on the way for that hammer in fact if he didn’t get put trough so much heart ache, would he have gone for the hammer so soon.
Also by splitting up the Gardiens they are arguably weaker and get captured and one of them dies.
I get your point but deffo think he lost a lot on his journey
Man you're good... Excellent video
this is one of my favourite channels on youtube. its so easy for people to come out and shit on plotholes in movies but you find the flaws and then you show a way to fix it and make the story better. love it
Thanks!
So Thor's Detour doesn't work because it doesn't play out as every other scene ever?
Tyson Williams it has no purpose? The whole point of this detour is to forge a weapon that can kill Thanos. Something said weapon almost literally does. It’s not a useless detour in the least.
Tyson Williams and their is a story, its basically how Thor will do anything to avenge his people and brother against Thanos for what he did to them, basically Thor confronting his demons but not fully embracing them, something rocket mentions in the beginning of the stormbreaker arc. And lol no stakes? Is that even worth a comment? The stakes are he could possibly die taking the full on beams of a fucking sun to forge a powerful weapon, all just so he can get his revenge. None of your reasons validate why the detour was bad. An actual good example of a meaningless detour would be the casino planet in tlj.
I think the main part was also to serve as a break from the sad parts of the film. Thier where some emotional moments during thors journey but it was almost completely made of triumphs which balanced the film nicer
completely agree with you guys
and about the point that we think Thor will survive, no we don't necessarily know that. Especially with the deaths of Loki and Gamora, two major characters, Thor could easily die. The way I saw it was that Thor's arc is a continuation of his previous arc from Ragnarok. His arc was about how far would he go to get revenge, how has loss defined him.
lol. truth be told, what he just d4scribed is how loki should have died
0:50 I don't think it's fair to say nobody grows. Throughout the movie, teen Groot is portrayed as selfish and disinterested, but once Thor's life is at stake, he sacrifices a part of himself to help Thor, similar to the ending of GotG 1. I think that this signifies him beginning to mature back into adult Groot.
The wrap up at the end with the renaming of the Axe was brilliant.
Agreed.I even went "Now that is smart" in real life...
It really was.
A tear came to my eye.
Why am i crying over a hypothetical death?
The suggestion to have Drax ask to hit Thanos' Heart makes that 3rd act a hell lot better
Everyone's going off about how "Thor lost a lot" Nando is talking about the SUBLOT, not the entirety of infinity war
Understand where you're coming from, but respectfully think you're missing the culmination of this Stormbreaker arc. It's not him getting the weapon. It's him failing against Thanos. He discusses with Rocket that he will succeed because he always has, he is fated to win. Stormbreaker arc is fulfilling this, as any normal movie where Thor was the big hero would result in him getting his magical macguffin, and saving the day at the last second. And everything shows that, they Avengers fanfare with his return to Earth, he flies in after Thanos gets all the gems, and he even gets that final hit in. But he still fails. And he loses all the things he thought he didn't have left to lose. The arc is him showing how committed he is in this belief that he will do everything he can and fate will support him to win. Substituting Drax for this, while adding camaraderie, would remove that display of conviction.
These changes don’t really make sense to me. Because what Thor “loses” in the end is the chance to kill Thanos. Those scenes were clearly put in to break from the drama and have a little down time to soak it all in. Having Drax die would just undermine the use of those scenes. Like I said before, I think the sequence works because the movie takes it time to set all this up, making you think they truly have a chance against Thanos, only to have that chance stepped on and thrown away. This at the same time is also showing you how absurdly powerful Thanos is; practically shrugging off the axe in his chest and quipping “aim for the head” before killing half the universe.
anybody got the russo brother's email?
I am still just reeling in from having watched the movie a few days ago and this guy goes ahead and makes it even better. amazing as always. can you just write a marvel script already? just a short maybe. something new.
one thing I dont understand though... in ragnarok, the lord of thunder doesnt need a hammer cuz that is not the source of his power?. couldnt he just use anything as a weapon if the power just flows through him? like a vibranium shield or something?
Imagine Thor's power as a pool. Now if he use it without using Stormbreaker, it would be like using your own hand to take some water. But with Stormbreaker, which is like a bucket, he can take more water, thus more powerful.
akshay de it's like emporor Palpatine. Yeah he shoots lightning but give him a light Saber and he fucks shit up.
Odin says it in Ragnarok, it focuses and harnesses his power. And the only thing strong enough to withstand that kind of energy in that manner is whatever the star material is called. Vibranium is powerful but it just can't be used that way
akshay de The lightning alone wouldn't be enough to kill him, or even Earthly metals as shown in the Titan fight, so he needed something Godly to penetrate his skin
HallowedError the material you seek is called Uru
I always thought that his arc was across the 2 movies of infinity war and end game. It wasn't supposed to be resolved in this movie