I'm glad you came back to this. I was really interested to see how this would work out. They have carbide inserts that are impact resistant...just for interest. In my completely inexpert opinion, carbide can go fast because it is heat resistant, but doesn't need to. For example watch Adam's old videos where he is turning really large items at his old job and the rpm is something like 100 RPM with a depth of cut something like 1/2" (12.7 mm). The big advantage of HSS used to be that it could be made to be surgically sharp and carbide couldn't, now this isn't true. HSS still is tougher, I think - so can handle severely interrupted cuts better. Again, I am no expert, but this it what I have gathered informationally from various sources. One more tidbit, round inserts are the strongest and have an infinite (well almost) number of edges, but take the most horsepower to push through the work. Wonderful video.
Thanks for your commentt, Robert. In insert tooling i am an absolute novice. I just wanted to try if maybe it could work. The only inserts i have are this TCMT inserts you see in this video. It was just interesting to try and lots of fun.
G'day, I used carbide on my P. K. Douglas shaper a couple of times with success, when hard steels blunted HSS too fast. The toolholder was homemade, with old (secondhand) triangular inserts re-sharpened on a greenstone wheel.. I only used 44 strokes per minute, fairly shallow depth of cut. This seemed to keep clapper action (and tool bounce) to a minimum. I didn't have trouble with insert chipping. Regards, Steve, Perth, Australia.
Glad you stopped the shaper doing the machine tool waltz across the floor ! I would think a DCBN tool might work ok as it uses the other opposite edges you don't usually use with a CNMG insert . Cheers Rusty .
Hello, in our country, carbide is used in metal processing after gas cutting. On planing machines, such processing is much cheaper than expensive cutters. Try brazed carbide for better surface finish. Sorry for my English.
Hi rusti, because of you, i'm going to buy my first shaper, and it arrives tomorrow, its a big old beast!! I just wanted to say thank you for the inspiration, and lets keep the hobby machining world alive! Greeting from portugal! Also i'd love some rustinox stickers !
G’day Rusti. Good to see the little shaper shaping up to the task. You scared the living daylights out of me when your shaper had an uncontrolled fit and tried to fall over, wow! How was your heart rate when that happened? Thanks for sharing Cheers Peter
I ground up and tried your two direction diamond shaped tool bit and it works really well. I've only tried a half mm cut on my shaper but it's much lighter than yours. Thanks for the video!
That's nice, George. Thanks for letting me know. You will not have a good finish with it and the point mill wear down quickly. But it's easy to make and very useful.
Put a radius on your tool, about 2-2.5 mm. Put a chamfer on the part facing the shaper, about 70-80 degrees and slow down your stroke speed and you will be able to take off about 3-4 mm depth cut.
Shapers are always a pleasure to watch. Good lord that is one mean little toy. Thank you for doing this. I enjoyed it. As always I keep hss in my machine as well. Cheap carbide for the lathe is awesome though.
I used a cemented carbide on mine, it did well enough for rough work. I didn't realize it was carbide because the patina of the carbide and the rest of the tool were matched until I wire wheeled it. I tried top speed on my shaper, just long enough to get a 30 second video. At 175/min, it wants to walk. Book instructions say to bolt it down and grout it between the base and the floor. It's not where I want it to 'live' yet , so it's still on blocks. It would be nice to be able to walk past the end without the risk of getting gut punched.
Haha. As always - A great laugh. Happy to see you had success with carbide. Your made in germany clamps are very handy haha!! Keep the videos coming and we appreciate your time !
Love the video, ended up with a lifetime of inserts when my father was laid off from Ti back in the day. He never used them, any reason not to use them in the machine? Except the fact that you are required to run the machine quite a bit faster. Probably have 80 lbs of variously inserts
Fun video. I tried my atlas 7B on hi speed a couple weeks ago. OMG I In thought it was going to dance across the floor. I tried running carbide inserts on my big shaper with almost no luck...but I intend to try again on the atlas
@@Rustinox I will probably give your rubber band idea a try next time (bounce limiting) I also want to change the angle of the cutter, so it can go left or right. Unfortunately I dont have a video of it in action, but I do have a video showing the holder I built (messed up) th-cam.com/video/7Lpe9Pam1m0/w-d-xo.html
interesting idea trying to run carbide tip on the shaper i have done it but as you demonstrated its not a great success ....if you need to do it to get through a hard surface just run it slow and forget about the recomended speed and feed ...thanks for the video
Most likely the factory documentation will tell you to grout the machine in. The modern way is to use an epoxy like Sikkens Wapex 201. It's very easy to do. Keeping the machine from moving is easy to do, but what you really want is to lower the resonant frequency of the system by adding the concrete mass to the machine as a solid whole. Depending on the type of machine and manufacturer, some machine are grouted in and some are not. I spoke to an operator of a very large lathe once and he said a ballpark figure would be to have the concrete slab mass at least equal to the machine's mass. In fact my new mill must be grouted in while my surface grinder sits on factory levelling feet. A revolver lathe I have must not be grouted in (very sturdy continuous casting) but must be leveled using steel shim plates along with rubber, leather (yes) or plastic sheets. And my common center lathe definitely needs grouting is. It has not been done yet, but I will soon now that is in its new location. It is sitting on wooden blocks now and the vibrations are very noticable.
@@Rustinox You are right of course. The chain is as strong as the weakest link. Many improvements are a somewhat redundant when the basics aren't there. This also goes for machine wear and adjustments of course. One will want to fix the weakest (and probably cheapest) things first. Modifications like a solid toolpost are of course pretty involved. By the way, my Gema lathes all have the gap bed which is an inherent weak link that is not fixable. Grouting in a machine you have to be very sure of its location. I will first use the lathe a bit before going ahead. But I can't wait really to find out how much stability improves. It will be interesting.
Rustic, my experience of using insert carbide tooling on the Alba shows the most common way the tip deteriorates is being chipped on the return stroke. As you'll know carbide is very brittle stuff and doesn't take kindly to being clattered across the workpiece on the return stroke. This is where a mechanical tool lifter would be of great benefit. What about the landlord,does he like his new lightened concrete floor? If too many people living on one side of the globe all drill their concrete floors at the same time there is a real possibility the planet will go out of balance and fall of its axis. Especially if the errant drillers live near the equator line.
I think the rubber bands did the trick. The tool was dragging on the part and not bouncing. When i bought this shaper there was a tool lift installed. It was a real poor design. I took it off because it didn't work at all. And don't worry, i don't drill much holes in concrete :-)
Carbide is on my To-Do-List also - lets hope I won't have to bolt my shaper down to the ground for that :D But since the Klopp is equipped with a tool lift mechanism, it should be easy on the inserts. Carbide shows its benefits when it comes to high cutting pressure, i.e. high feed rate, thick chips - and whilst that might not apply on smaller machines like yours, mine might just have the guts for it. I'll see if I can snatch me a holder somewhen. Great sense of humor, btw. Wish I was that spontaneous myself ;-)
You are absolutely right. My little machine is not powerful enough for carbite. It was equipped with a tool lift when i bought it but it never worked. That made me a bit jealous of your Klopp machine. Wish you all the best with your exams.
@@Rustinox I have to say, I usually run the machine with the lift mechanism disconnected. For most operations, it just simply isnt needed. But then there's that one occasion where I just wouldn't want to miss it - just like the automatic downfeed. They make this machine so much more sophisticated. Was the tool lift on yours just badly designed or was it defective? I did a fair bit of modification on mine to make it work properly :D
@@Rustinox Well, let me know if you should ever plan to equip yours with a better version tool lift, I'd be happy to provide detail photos and dimensions. Next week will be the last two exams, can't wait to get back in the shop :D
I don't have brazed carbide tools, so i never tried. Colin Peck told me he had success with brazed carbide. Here's a link to his video. th-cam.com/video/syErq8MUDbM/w-d-xo.html
At 2.50 and 3.50 😂🤣 oh man took me 10 minutes to stop laughing... really funny guy. " I rent this house and the owner may not let me drill holes......" ... jebus h Christ 😆😆
Bolting the shaper down has definitely been worth it. It's fun moving machines on your own nice one. Interesting video.Tony
The problem is of course that every time you move a machine it doesn't get any newer. And my spine either...
@@Rustinox That's correct. It used to be a lot easier.
I'm glad you came back to this. I was really interested to see how this would work out. They have carbide inserts that are impact resistant...just for interest. In my completely inexpert opinion, carbide can go fast because it is heat resistant, but doesn't need to. For example watch Adam's old videos where he is turning really large items at his old job and the rpm is something like 100 RPM with a depth of cut something like 1/2" (12.7 mm). The big advantage of HSS used to be that it could be made to be surgically sharp and carbide couldn't, now this isn't true. HSS still is tougher, I think - so can handle severely interrupted cuts better. Again, I am no expert, but this it what I have gathered informationally from various sources. One more tidbit, round inserts are the strongest and have an infinite (well almost) number of edges, but take the most horsepower to push through the work. Wonderful video.
Thanks for your commentt, Robert. In insert tooling i am an absolute novice. I just wanted to try if maybe it could work. The only inserts i have are this TCMT inserts you see in this video. It was just interesting to try and lots of fun.
G'day, I used carbide on my P. K. Douglas shaper a couple of times with success, when hard steels blunted HSS too fast. The toolholder was homemade, with old (secondhand) triangular inserts re-sharpened on a greenstone wheel.. I only used 44 strokes per minute, fairly shallow depth of cut. This seemed to keep clapper action (and tool bounce) to a minimum. I didn't have trouble with insert chipping. Regards, Steve, Perth, Australia.
Thanks for your comment Steve. That's useful information.
Wow, that was a scary moment. 😱
Love how you fabricated the steel base and how you lifted the shaper. Excellent stuff 👏👏👍😀
It's not always easy to tame a shaper :)
Glad you stopped the shaper doing the machine tool waltz across the floor ! I would think a DCBN tool might work ok as it uses the other opposite edges you don't usually use with a CNMG insert . Cheers Rusty .
I stopped just in time before she would invite me to dance with her. I hate dancing...
@@Rustinox your not on your pat malone there Mate . ( australian slang for own ! ) !!!
Hello, in our country, carbide is used in metal processing after gas cutting. On planing machines, such processing is much cheaper than expensive cutters. Try brazed carbide for better surface finish.
Sorry for my English.
I will give it a try, and don't worry about your English. It's probably better than mine.
Hi rusti, because of you, i'm going to buy my first shaper, and it arrives tomorrow, its a big old beast!! I just wanted to say thank you for the inspiration, and lets keep the hobby machining world alive! Greeting from portugal!
Also i'd love some rustinox stickers !
That's good news, Rafa. I'm sure you gonna have lots of fun with it.
For the stickers, send me a mail at rustinox@outlook.com
I love your sense of humor :)
Thanks Ken. I hope you had a good time watching.
I've never heard of a "boogie woogie problem" before... but it's a great name... I immediately knew what you meant.
I think it's very clear :)
@@Rustinox It certainly is. :)
G’day Rusti. Good to see the little shaper shaping up to the task. You scared the living daylights out of me when your shaper had an uncontrolled fit and tried to fall over, wow! How was your heart rate when that happened?
Thanks for sharing
Cheers
Peter
The shaper going wild was a bit scary indeed. But i've got it tamed now.
You did it! Your unstoppable.Gives me ideas that might be dangerous to my garage
Jeebus! Teasing the lead all the way to the end. Funny.
Yep!
Great video Rusti. I would have thought that the impact would have destroyed the insert. Interesting and thank you for sharing.
That is indeed also what i thought would happen. But it worked. I gonna continue experimenting with other materials and see what happens.
I ground up and tried your two direction diamond shaped tool bit and it works really well. I've only tried a half mm cut on my shaper but it's much lighter than yours. Thanks for the video!
That's nice, George. Thanks for letting me know. You will not have a good finish with it and the point mill wear down quickly. But it's easy to make and very useful.
Put a radius on your tool, about 2-2.5 mm. Put a chamfer on the part facing the shaper, about 70-80 degrees and slow down your stroke speed and you will be able to take off about 3-4 mm depth cut.
This machine isn't build to take heavy cuts. It just can't handle it.
Shapers are always a pleasure to watch. Good lord that is one mean little toy. Thank you for doing this. I enjoyed it. As always I keep hss in my machine as well. Cheap carbide for the lathe is awesome though.
As long as you treat it well it can be very gentle. But don't make it angry...
I used a cemented carbide on mine, it did well enough for rough work. I didn't realize it was carbide because the patina of the carbide and the rest of the tool were matched until I wire wheeled it.
I tried top speed on my shaper, just long enough to get a 30 second video. At 175/min, it wants to walk. Book instructions say to bolt it down and grout it between the base and the floor. It's not where I want it to 'live' yet , so it's still on blocks. It would be nice to be able to walk past the end without the risk of getting gut punched.
So you have dancing shapers problem too.
Haha. As always - A great laugh. Happy to see you had success with carbide. Your made in germany clamps are very handy haha!! Keep the videos coming and we appreciate your time !
Thanks Chris.
Love the video, ended up with a lifetime of inserts when my father was laid off from Ti back in the day. He never used them, any reason not to use them in the machine? Except the fact that you are required to run the machine quite a bit faster. Probably have 80 lbs of variously inserts
Sapers can't run at the required cutting speed for carbite. Gut still, it can be very useful.
(I won’t say it..)
Thanks for all the effort you went to! As always, another great video!
Great effort indeed but great fun also.
Thanks for your kind words.
Elle danse ta machine! Nicely done. Thanks for sharing . Always cheers me up. Gros merci.
Thanks Yves. That's very kind of you.
Fun video. I tried my atlas 7B on hi speed a couple weeks ago. OMG I In thought it was going to dance across the floor. I tried running carbide inserts on my big shaper with almost no luck...but I intend to try again on the atlas
Thanks Craig. I think the most important is that the tool doesn't bounce on the part.
Show us the results.
@@Rustinox I will probably give your rubber band idea a try next time (bounce limiting) I also want to change the angle of the cutter, so it can go left or right. Unfortunately I dont have a video of it in action, but I do have a video showing the holder I built (messed up)
th-cam.com/video/7Lpe9Pam1m0/w-d-xo.html
Mooie A.I. schaafbank. Heb er veel mee gewerkt. Ze wisten bij Hembrug wel wat kwaliteit was!
Inderdaad, een goede machine en in zeer goede staat. Ik ben er geweldig blij mee.
interesting idea trying to run carbide tip on the shaper i have done it but as you demonstrated its not a great success ....if you need to do it to get through a hard surface just run it slow and forget about the recomended speed and feed ...thanks for the video
Nice experiment. You sure did remove the material faster. I think a TPGB insert might work better, no chip breaker and a sharp edge.
It was just a little experiment with the only incerts i have. I think i will continue with HSS tools. Cheap and versatile.
Mr. Nox, I had a good laugh at the bandage on the shaper!😂
Collateral damage from transport when i bought it.
@@Rustinox I hope you didn’t have too hard of a time stopping the bleeding!
Most likely the factory documentation will tell you to grout the machine in. The modern way is to use an epoxy like Sikkens Wapex 201. It's very easy to do. Keeping the machine from moving is easy to do, but what you really want is to lower the resonant frequency of the system by adding the concrete mass to the machine as a solid whole. Depending on the type of machine and manufacturer, some machine are grouted in and some are not. I spoke to an operator of a very large lathe once and he said a ballpark figure would be to have the concrete slab mass at least equal to the machine's mass. In fact my new mill must be grouted in while my surface grinder sits on factory levelling feet. A revolver lathe I have must not be grouted in (very sturdy continuous casting) but must be leveled using steel shim plates along with rubber, leather (yes) or plastic sheets. And my common center lathe definitely needs grouting is. It has not been done yet, but I will soon now that is in its new location. It is sitting on wooden blocks now and the vibrations are very noticable.
For the hobby shop it's less important that machines are fixed. Exept for the shaper.
@@Rustinox You are right of course. The chain is as strong as the weakest link. Many improvements are a somewhat redundant when the basics aren't there. This also goes for machine wear and adjustments of course. One will want to fix the weakest (and probably cheapest) things first. Modifications like a solid toolpost are of course pretty involved. By the way, my Gema lathes all have the gap bed which is an inherent weak link that is not fixable.
Grouting in a machine you have to be very sure of its location. I will first use the lathe a bit before going ahead. But I can't wait really to find out how much stability improves. It will be interesting.
Does the machine rocking effect the accuracy of the cut? First thought would be no; since the whole machine is rocking. What are your thoughts?
Every machine is flexing under whatever load, so I'm sure it is. It's very difficult to take measurements.
Rustic, my experience of using insert carbide tooling on the Alba shows the most common way the tip deteriorates is being chipped on the return stroke. As you'll know carbide is very brittle stuff and doesn't take kindly to being clattered across the workpiece on the return stroke. This is where a mechanical tool lifter would be of great benefit. What about the landlord,does he like his new lightened concrete floor? If too many people living on one side of the globe all drill their concrete floors at the same time there is a real possibility the planet will go out of balance and fall of its axis. Especially if the errant drillers live near the equator line.
I think the rubber bands did the trick. The tool was dragging on the part and not bouncing.
When i bought this shaper there was a tool lift installed. It was a real poor design. I took it off because it didn't work at all.
And don't worry, i don't drill much holes in concrete :-)
Good point
Thanks.
Very interesting results from your experiment. Blood is an essential chemical in the shop. Thanks for the sticker shoutout...yours is coming soon.
I think we all lost a few liters of blood in our careers. S..t happens :-)
Carbide is on my To-Do-List also - lets hope I won't have to bolt my shaper down to the ground for that :D
But since the Klopp is equipped with a tool lift mechanism, it should be easy on the inserts.
Carbide shows its benefits when it comes to high cutting pressure, i.e. high feed rate, thick chips -
and whilst that might not apply on smaller machines like yours, mine might just have the guts for it.
I'll see if I can snatch me a holder somewhen.
Great sense of humor, btw. Wish I was that spontaneous myself ;-)
You are absolutely right. My little machine is not powerful enough for carbite. It was equipped with a tool lift when i bought it but it never worked. That made me a bit jealous of your Klopp machine.
Wish you all the best with your exams.
@@Rustinox I have to say, I usually run the machine with the lift mechanism disconnected. For most operations, it just simply isnt needed.
But then there's that one occasion where I just wouldn't want to miss it - just like the automatic downfeed. They make this machine so much more sophisticated.
Was the tool lift on yours just badly designed or was it defective? I did a fair bit of modification on mine to make it work properly :D
@@AstraWerke On my machine it was a bad design. I've seen your vid where you make the modifications on yours. Brillant!
@@Rustinox Well, let me know if you should ever plan to equip yours with a better version tool lift, I'd be happy to provide detail photos and dimensions.
Next week will be the last two exams, can't wait to get back in the shop :D
@@AstraWerke th-cam.com/video/kXdlhDwR_5E/w-d-xo.html
Amigo acredito que já tenha resolvido esse pequeno problema, caso não resolveu a solução é chumbar parafusos no piso e parafusar a máquina.
Because of the bump in the concrete floor the machine is still moving a bit.
i wonder how a brazed carbide would go ? you could grind it to your own preferred geometry
I don't have brazed carbide tools, so i never tried.
Colin Peck told me he had success with brazed carbide.
Here's a link to his video.
th-cam.com/video/syErq8MUDbM/w-d-xo.html
I wish you could still buy a piece of steel that big for only $32 dollars
Ay the scrap yard maybe :)
At 2.50 and 3.50 😂🤣 oh man took me 10 minutes to stop laughing... really funny guy. " I rent this house and the owner may not let me drill holes......" ... jebus h Christ 😆😆
I'm glad you liked it.
ESPECTACULAR
here frome Argentina
Thanks IDMA 95.
This is my tipe of humour.!!! Great video
Thanks.
Make I wider and make it so it's anchor to the back wall the bass and to the floor
OK, but i'm not allowed to drill holes in walls and floors.
Tree parts????? 😂😂😂😂
Of course! My workshop is to small to enter a whole tree.
You're getting into some real wooden thinking here.
When i got my shaper i almost Killed myself😂 1 Ton falling towards you isnt nice.... I will make a 1 Ton concrete sockel and bolt it to it
If i understand well, you have a killer shaper?
Rustinox Something like that ... Im from Germany, i guess you too?
Garten OHM I’m from Belgium.
Please send me a sticker to put on my shaper!
No problem. Just mail me your postal address at rustinox@outlook.com