Asmongold Reacts to "How the MMO Became Less Social"
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 เม.ย. 2021
- Asmongold watches a video by Josh Strife Hayes discussing about the changes throughout the years that fundamentally changed the MMORPG genre and inherently made these games less social in favor of efficiency and quick replayability..
Original Video: • How the MMO became les... (How the MMO became less social - [MMOPINION])
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Thank you all for watching! If you enjoyed this, make sure to check out Josh channel for more MMO centered discussions!
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I'm commenting here because I know Josh might see it! We love your content bro never stop the grind!!!!!
@@clear5136 thanks man :D
Please check out his video about dreamworld, it's such a mind-blowingly stupid and obvious scam game. You should get some laughs out of that one too, it's.. well, just watch it!
Being apart of the old school Wow folk when the shift happen away from the social aspect of WOW I got bored and had to stop play WOW for a while. Now I just got one because its fun to do once in while hammer out some quest lines, but its not nearly as fun as it use to be making one of those casual players.
yo asmon pls check out Captain Claw . it's an obscure 2D platformer with a pirate cat :D
Thanks for another reaction, always nice to see the mmo community feedback to issues we all face :)
Are u more of a owo or a UwU guy?
@@srupidcat4525 he has a soul
My ears wiggle every time somebody mentions EverQuest.
Have you ever noticed that the MMORPGs that ARE flourishing such as Path of Exile and Runescape have a strong impedence to run sellers? These games become trivial garbage once people monetize the progression as a playerbase. Both of these games have a strong "community" because they are required to get players into the game in a social element. Albion Online made a big splash on release until their game was held hostage for an entire week by gold farmers.
Trade chat or world chat is made indecipherable by these extortionist clowns and they should face hardware bans for the MMO equivalent of usury.
I have noticed over the years that the social aspect of MMO's has stagnated save a few namesakes. FF14 for example does have a Duty/Raid finder option but if you want to get into Savage or Extreme, pugging said content is a sure fire way of wiping...A LOT. Some servers host events like hunt trains for A/S Rank mobs and 5.5 recently added a Fe'te system in the Firmament of Ishgard. Its crazy watching 200+ people some days and said hunts are just as crazy, but even FF14 does suffer a bit from low social interactions on occasion.
I remember having a guildie ask me to help them run through the wetlands. We spent a longgggg time getting there. When we arrived at the town, she sat down and said me friend will be here in a few minutes. About 10 minutes later a gnome priest showed up. They chatted for a few minutes and the priest passed her a boe green. She said awesome and thank you. She said we could hearth back to stormwind. I asked her if she knew she could have just mailed that and she said “what fun is that, I got to see my friend”. Nothing like that happens anymore.
I just did that walk 30 minutes ago. Met some guy in darnasus and we walked together to stormwind and had a nice chat. Its indeed pretty rare nowadays, this was in classic wow in retail wow thats non existent.
I can highly recommend an RP realm, they are some of the friendliest realms I've been on and I don't even RP. I guess people just are used to chatting there I guess I'm having a blast in classic right now preparing for TBC
Gnomes couldn't be priests back then
@@oddthemute6172 classic launch was awesome. Sadly people are products of their environments, once boosting and min maxing started, it was over for classic
@@choonbox I highly agree. You dont even have to have an interest in RP but if you like to socialize in the game, RP server communities are so much better
From personal experience what I want more than anything else when taking a break from a soul crushing job is a friend to play games with.
Most people do not have TRUE friends left at the age of 25-30+ is what I noticed... I am lucky to say I have 3 friends from back when i was 5 years old and we still hang out and play every second day. It makes me sad to know that others do not have that luck :/.
@@aedankor2961 At that age you spend most of your time at work. If the people you work with aren't good friend material then your boned.
@@aedankor2961 Especially men.
@@cozyafternoon7826 IMO: I advise that people mix their gaming and their work at their peril. Too much scope for a negative label to be attached. If you are late to work for genuine reasons then the negative label turns up in workplace rumors. For most players I think it's best to keep them clearly separate.
I guess It varies from person to person. I'm a waiter, so I'm around people the whole time, and customers can be assholes as we all know, so when I get home I just wanna escape to another world where I don't have to deal with everyday people. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to play with others, and I'm kinda sad I don't have any friends who play MMO's, but I need my alone time as well. I guess I should join a clan, but these are also hit or miss, and in many I felt obligated to be social, which I also don't like. Things can be difficult, but that's what I love about a good MMO, it can give all of us a break from reality, be it a break with friends or alone.
Glad Josh Strife Hayes is getting more exposure, underrated channel.
@loftyz47 yeah I'm fixing that now by just focusing on mmo vids 3 times a week :)
Totally agree. I've began to watch all of his stuff lately. He is talented and well researched.
@@JoshStrifeHayes used to watch back in the neverwinter days
@@JoshStrifeHayes glad to be backing you on patreon! Keep it up.
It's funny because Josh Strife Hayes does such a good job with his videos Asmongold can't add anything, he has to just say "yeah" and then reword what Josh says. It really shows the difference between a well prepared youtube video and a live twitch streamer reacting.
the problem with need a group questing, is that once that content becomes old and new players start to join, its difficult for a new player to find another person to get that quest done, so no thats a bad idea making quests be gated by needing another person
Um... then the new player just groups with new players. Or you design an incentive for older players to occasionally do that thing, like the roulette dungeons in ffxiv.
I think an underrated contributor to this problem is having players in different instances / phases. You can go through areas without seeing anyone... it's depressing.
Phasing is pretty bad, and sharding is outright cancerous, I will fully agree with that. It was really neat to see your quest chain having an impact on the world when WoW introduced it in Wrath of the Lich King for the story quests. But I admit it kinda looked weird when someone would either reach the point you were in and materialize from nowhere, or phase out of that point and disappear. And putting characters on the same realm in different shards of a zone defeats the entire purpose of playing an MMO - I *want* to see the world populated, and preferably with people from my server. Cross Realm Zones were also terrible.
@@kuuryotwo5153 zones just don't feel the same anymore. I started playing again after 10 years away. Leveling up 2 characters to max I didn't encounter anyone from my realm while in the open world and only a few people from other realms. Such a shame.
It's actually not true, the sharding brings more live in the world, since the system tries to fill a location from the whole pool of available players evenly. The problem here is that you don't care who's around you anymore, whatever it's 100 people or 2.
FFXIV doesn’t have instances unless there’s a big expac drop :)
@@ye9945 yeah, final fantasy + ESO are the best mmorpgs out right now. I have high hopes for Ashes as well
Asmon was defending Raider IO being added into the game, but here he denounces it because it's socially impersonal, which was McCool's argument against it.. Some consistency please.
You can have nuance to an argument- if you're only interested in running high level content then raiderIO is a good thing, but if you can spend the time getting to know individuals and can be sure you're all on the same level without a definitive number to tell you that.
Both arguments have weight he's just speaking on the current topic
Smh asmongler
This comment ignores the fact humans grow and CHANGE and just because they once said something doesnt mean they believe it forever
@@generallorvion9795 "Once" 😂 wtf man, he literally said that a few days ago! 😂
@@celtiberianwarrior3783 ah look an idiot who thinks his big brain
I miss finding groups in the major cities and spending time as a group running together to the dungeon.
Sentient Ape it has happened for me in retail many times. I have been in the same guild for almost 2 years as a social because I really like the people in it. I met someone in group finder once in bfa to group up for some visions, the person added me for reason and we started playing. we still play together a lot and we have exchanged snapchat and stuff. not even to mention my best friend whom I met in tf2 6 years ago, I still havent met him though but we plan on meeting of course now that we aren’t 14-15, but yknow corona.
I dont. That was very unpleasant. I like LFG tool its just so much better. I dont have to deal with elitist pricks and i get to keep my dignity. Please sir can i join your group plz. awww pleeeeeaaaase. No thanks if i pop group in lfg with an asshole i just quit.
I do too in heart, but I also really don't in practicality. Spending an hour or two pulling together a BRD group, or god forbid someone ragequits the party in the middle of a run just before a boss you need loot from and then spending another hour trying to find someone willing to join an already in progress group just wouldn't cut it for me anymore, despite how much I'd love to go back to that time in my life.
Apparently you guys didn't play the first few months of classic? That's all it was and it was amazing
@@drafman1 The momentum of classic eased the problems with the systems in that groups were exceedingly easy to form. The momentum didn't last. Finding groups these days is a mixed bag.
The way that WoW Classic played out, I think the biggest culprit for the decline of socialization is the simple fact that the game was new to people back then. They had a different experience, from lack of game knowledge, lack of any centralized sources for game information, and the novelty of being in a social game. And that's not really replicable.
I find good wholesome people in MMO's to be a very rare thing. Most are toxic, antagonistic, elitist and completely incapable of a respectful exchange with other players.
DIS. It's one of the main reasons I quit WoW: instead of helping each other, they gate u out
you should try warframe
Play Black Desert Online, the endgame community is so nice and dramafree. Literally never had a bad experience in any major guild, and everyone's willing to help each other out no matter the skill level (:
@Hastur Dagon It is. What I like most is how all the guilds work together and coexist peacefully, it's so simple and nice.
As with any social experience, you take the good with the bad. People make a big mistake when they think guilds can just shut out the real world when really, it's more of the opposite: the real world shuts out said folks.
15 year old me playing FFXI, it was my first MMO..and I STILL remember each linkshell (guild) member, and I'm still friends with a couple of them on steam and a few other platforms. I played WoW and a few other MMO's since..and haven't made a single friend.
maybe you're the problem
I’ve thought about this recently, and I was wondering if as we get older, we lose the innate drive of fearlessly trying to make friends. Almost as though I COULD make friends, but the pursuit of maintaining and trying to build something just doesn’t feel like it’s worth the effort. You always hear about how kids get into gangs, and cliques because they have a sense of belonging - speaking from a scientific point, this would be the number 1 priority for a social animal, since being alone is a detriment to survival. So I wonder if getting older sheds this innate desire to seek out companionship once you’ve secured a small, close-knit group of friends?
I’ve always been interested in this subject, since I’m on the spectrum: I have nonverbal learning disability, which will cause you to have the social awkwardness of autism (being unable to pickup social cues, and taking everything literally) but grow out of it as you get older (I retain the learning disability aspect, where my brain cannot filter out verbal information, even though I’m conscious of what my brain is unconsciously doing). Friends weren’t easy for me to make, but by high school I had adapted certain methods of being on friendly terms with everybody; I have my close group of friends from then until now, and I’m 28, so I’ve always been curious and inquisitive about the aspects of socialization.
Of course, everything that I’m saying is speculation based on anecdotal and loosely related scientific evidence (how social animals thrive), so what my thoughts are might be completely different than others, but I figured I’d at least share my thoughts on the subject of ‘socializing’.
My XI friends are probably the only reason I play XIV between patches.
@@KC-bg1th id say its because we are getting older but id put more cause on society as a whole rather than just getting old. its a big problem thats interconnected with so many things and its way too big of a topic for youtube comments so i wont go too into the topic. I say this because now that people are older and have families and jobs to worry about, theres less time for the things you actually want to do. At least in the us once you reach 18 (and especially in your 20s) you have a ton of responsibilities thrown onto you by the world, and dealing with all of that likely leaves people tired and jaded, or they latch onto something to channel their negative feelings or rage into. while you may want to lfg for an hour and meet new and interesting people to quest with, the day to day grind of society leaves you drained. after work you pick up the kids, then get the kids food, then clean the house, etc. By the time its all over you have 2 hours before its time for bed to do it all again tomorrow, and like the video said what can you accomplish in the 30 minutes you can the the game for the day? it seems to be something that penetrates most levels of society to keep people as tired and stressed as possible for as long as possible, usually so someone can take advantage of them and/or make a quick buck.
@@KC-bg1th It's just an anecdote but when I played my first MMO I was very shy and played it like a single player game. I still somehow made friends through questing together and especially the guild. We even met in real life twice.
I'm not so shy anymore but still not very social and since everything in many MMOs can be cleared solo, I never had a reason to communicate and so I haven't made new friends like that ever again.
Last time I played retail wow TimeWalking TBC was the weekly event. At the end of each of the five dungeons I always typed "Thanks guys!" or something similar. I also type rather quickly. Every single time I was the last person in the group by the time I typed my message. Pretty sad.
The golden age of MMO's has long since passed. I still remember friends and battles and "real" events in MMO's from decades ago--like being stuck in Paineel, on a PvP EverQuest server, as a lowbie Erudite Necromancer with a smallish group of other Erudite players. We couldn't get through the main human towns, because there were enemy PvP players hunting the grounds around the city and in the sewers. By chance, we were able to get a message out with a high level Warrior, who vowed he would send help when he got to the next safe city. A little while later, to our surprise, a Dark Elf Wizard appeared, who was able to teleport us all to freedom. Such a small event, and yet it was completely "real" in that there was no charging for teleports, no "me, me, me" attitude ... just a group of players trying to band together on a PvP server, and helping each other out. The "evil" players met in the Dark Elf capital, and were planning events, including more rescues from Paineel. Made a lot of friends during those days. Nowadays, in game's like WoW, you don't even learn your party members names, or say anything to them, because they're all mindless "lab rats", blasting through dungeons in record speed, with nothing on their minds except "phat lootz". Don't even get me started on how cool Ultima Online was back in the day--back when PvP was open world, with full looting, etc. You had to form friendships, create guilds, etc. Today's MMO's are mostly single-player experiences with no redeemable value. You might as well just play a single-player RPG and be done with it.
Spot on.
Sad part is a generation of players never got to experience it and dont know anything better than streamlined, instant gratification.
Any exeption today?, i still have hope..
I love Josh's channel always like the topic of his videos! I watched the video before and now am watching in asmon channel, love his reactions and reasoning. And how he doubles most of videos time absolute pause man!
My example of social interaction is in classic wow, I'm new to the game and in 1 week I met and chatted with so many ppl, than all my career in retail wow. I love both, of course, but it's crazy how the lack of group finding tools and stuff influenced so much in my parasocial interaction
It feels like mmos are just solo games with multiplayer lobby’s for people to stroke there ego as they show there buddy them “epics , professor plums, purps , etc “
like shared world games
I honestly don't know what the F half of you are talking about, I don't EVER want to spend 3 hours finding a party for one dungeon we fail or a boss.
I don't want to have to talk to 50 morons that barely know the keys to the game. Give me dungeon finder all day.
Most of you are addicted to nostalgia but don't like the practicality of it
@@valkondarvalakev6377 Finally. Someone with some sense. I enjoy MMOs and getting to play with people, but F having to spend all evening begging people to play with me. If you are a social person, at the very least the "top" MMOs all offer systems that let you get to know and group with people at your own pace.
@@TheRogueAstronaut Depends on the mmorpg you are playing, if is a "dead" game/server or it has a small community, that tend to happen.
@@valkondarvalakev6377 I'm sad most of people are thinking like you, you would not play MMOs if it was still an actual MMO. MMORPG died because there is more money to get making an MMORPG that is not an MMO.
"I don't want to have to talk to 50 morons that barely know the keys to the game."
That's really sad, that's why we say gaming community is shit nowadays.
I remember when I started WoW it was early BC we were trying to make karazhan we had 0 knowledge. Some day we took a last, that was from the best guild of my serv that was playing for WFs. We were absolute shit, after this raid, this guy came every week in our KZ raid to teach us. He litteraly powerleveled our skill, no youtube video or wowhead guide can do that.
I always remember that, and i'm always nice with "noobs", and my trying to teach them what I can.
A new community took over WoW, MMO players that were not that much addicted left, those that stayed are mad at each others.
How does wow cater to solo players if you can't gear or get to 2.1k rating without a team or friends, you can't do mythics without friends or a team or a guild 🤷♂️ from what ive seen being online they have pushed all their solo players and casual players out and only have very few hardcore players left
Because people have this crazy notion that the existance of PUGs removes the need for social interaction... When in fact, not only are all the tools for such still present in the game (via guilds, for instance), but it's also more rewarding to create your own community and play with them.
exactly bro alot of the people who complain nonstop are usually just bad players not willing to put in the effort, especially in wow if you want to be respected by your peers youll find a way to get it done, its been like this for 10 years
WoW has too many servers. Take RP servers, is probably enough pop to support 3 or 4. Two being wyrmrest accord and moon guard. Those two servers have a healthy population. Then you combine all the remaining RP servers into one or two servers. You can't pug stuff on a low pop server, you can use group finder but it's a lot harder to make friends on different servers. If you are on a RP server and goldshire is EMPTY your on a dead server. There will be no growth just a slow but steady decline.
The issue with group finder to pug is you don't form a server wide community where people get to know each other. You can't trade or be part of same guild. I speak from experience but once a servers population dips far enough the ability to even be a hardcore player drops off a cliff. I can't speak for non-rp realms but for RP realms the player base is spread way too thin unless you go to one of the 'popular' realms.
Granted for rp realms paid server transfers might be the biggest issue, caused the whole 'lets congregate on two servers' phenomenon with Rp realms.
Many players just buy boosts for whatever it is they need - gear, ratings, achievements. Trade chat is unreadable because of the amount of boost advertisements - this means there's enough buyers' interest out there.
it took me an hour the other day to find a group for a twisting corridors layer 1, cause everyone i whispered didn't say anything. but i eventually found a group and we laughed at how op our builds got in that TC run. had a good time. it was way more fun then playing solo.
Very true. When Classic wow was announced to have a revamped voice chat I naively thought that in bgs or dungeons people would be on the mic.
Everyone is isolated on discord
SWTOR for example is less social, but the game it self has like an insane movie like stories that makes it possible to play it solo.
@@Krokodilius how did the no players came into what I just said? If the player base is small compared to others then ofc it will be less social. Wtf you talking about?
Swtor has more poeple talking in trade chat then wow lmao
@@Krokodilius Sounds like you got a personal vendetta against SWTOR xD.
@@Krokodilius I personally always like that hame for its stories. Its definitely sad to see it die off slowly but its not surprising since they havent innovated much.
@@Krokodilius I disagree completely, SWTOR specialized in its campaigns and it easily had the best campaigns out if any MMOs out right now. When I think of WoW campaigns, I think of how no one escapes the maw, oh wait.
I feel like, early MMOs were some of the earliest social media, so just socializing in an MMO was novel and cool, and you'd play the game for that. But as social media became more common, and as the internet became more toxic, gaming PERIOD became more about ESCAPING socializing with other humans. Which was very very bad for MMOs which were built on social gaming.
You are not white
I agree
i find it so hard to even get in groups with people while leveling in wow
Most ppl just spam dungeons to lvl up to 60 pressing LFD button over and over, not even leaving orgrimmar/stormwind
My pc could barely run in the big densely populated areas but just chilling in goldshire and dueling people and dancing on the roof of the inn was all the fun i needed
Proximity voice is very good, for a variety of reasons. But for instance, Foxhole on steam, a top down faction v faction 1940's war game, one of the best things about proximity voice is the ability to herd together a gaggle of random players that don't have a plan and giving them some sort of direction. It's a great feeling when you can mobilize 15 random people, flank an enemy force and turn the tide of battle by just being able to talk to them like that. I really hope more games strive for proximity voice
I still remember when I leveled my first character, how we traveled on slow mounts from Undercity all the way to Blackrock to do the dungeons there. One of the best days in wow I ever had.
Good times and talking to random people on zeppelins asking where they are headed 😂❤️
Now imagine that you get into the dungeon, clear to the first boss, then your healer d/c's. Welcome to the pit of despair that was life before the dungeon finder.
topic at 21 min is very true for me. the game doesnt supply that feel for me anymore so i come to some wow streams youtube videos for that social feel i used to have.
I’ve been watching your videos occasionally over the course of the last year or two, but I’m finally subbing after watching this. I agree with everything you said, and have been saying the same things for years now.
The point about 17:35 . My first MMO ever was FFXI. I played it on my PS2 with dialup and I was awful at making money in it so I had really subpar gear. However, people that played with me said I was really good at my job/class and this made it easy to get new groups because word got around. I was the "poor but good red mage, get him because he knows what he is doing" and that really doesn't happen now.
I'm probably the most extroverted guy you've met.
In WoW, I'm the guy who makes groups for any quest if I see anyone nearby, ask politely if they're doing the same quest and strike up minor conversation if we're not busy killing things. I've been like this my entire life; its just part of me.
A consequence of this, is that in Vanilla-Wrath, my friendslist was filled - so I had a excel-sheet with great people I met so that I wouldn't forget.
I started a new character in Cataclysm and did the same thing: But when I hit level-cap, my friendslist had less than a dozen people. I just finished Shadowlands (because you can do that now) and not a single person has written back to me at any point.
WoW has literally turned all other players into NPCs. If Blizzard made a realm filled with bots and a single-player-andy started playing, they wouldn't know the difference.
Damn, hits hard when you realize that :(
YES I remember some days ago in ardenweald, there's this chest where you need 2 people to open it (something something harmony I think) - one playing the harp and one playing the drums.. I stood there for 4 hours! In my guild everyone did that chest already which meant they couldn't help me but there were like 20 people that even stood beside me, tried to loot the chest and didn't even answer when I told them how to open it.. They just left, it's like that with many of the rare mobs too.. Idk if Blizzard forgot what they turned their player base into but there's literally no one to do those things with it seems.. I'm on a "full" server, it actually says that in the realm screen and yet you barely see people aside from the afk bots in OG and so on- if there were at least more players in one place, that would make it bearable at least but it's just torture right now..
This.
Dude, its not 2004.
People are working more now, remember the 9 to 5 jobs and school being like 6-7 hours?
Well people are more busy in 2021, they don't have time to look for people for 3 hours and Ifrankly don't found that EVER interesting.
More social aspects would be nice but I am not going to look for people to do dungeons with when I can just play another game that has a dungeon finder or is apex legends/overwatch or just play a single players. 0 interest in morons to group with.
@@valkondarvalakev6377 yeah i sure love spending my entire day working after that plugging into a soulless dopamine fest game where i still don't interact with anyone or do anything tangible. we've really come so far since 2004
In RuneScape it has. Everything is hyper-optimized, and everything has an exact guide; if you’re typing, you’re Exp wasting. Ironically, the reason why I can type 140WPM today is because of RuneScape; the urgency of needing to communicate quickly catapulted my typing skills to another level. I guarantee that everybody reading this types _at least_ 85-100WPM easily
Weird flex
@Shia Lebeouf: Life Coach even with a new keyboard that's...
honestly I like you can do most stuff solo or que for it. I feel in modern wow raiding is for groups or high level m+ everything else is solo content. with my guild we have raid night and a couple other nights for m+ its great and doesn't take up all your time like mmo's used to do.
As an old mmorpg player I do enjoy both the solo content for the mechanical and strategic challenge, the barrier to entry being only my free time, and the pretty much "forced" group content which brings people together organically.
I think the problem is, ironically, a lot of the "quality of life" systems which, despite making gameplay more efficient, also end up cutting a lot of that organic interaction.
Auction Houses make it much smoother and less troublesome to sell items, but player shops and shouting to sell stuff actively made people negotiate prices and made the economy feel more alive and less exploitable by auction house bots. And dont get me wrong, it feels good to have systems that optimize time spent because the engineer side of me has an obsession with optimizing experiences. A lot of bad vices also feel good as a way to hook you up, perhaps we've shifted our focus to the wrong thing.
Group finders might make jumping into content faster but they also make the world feel a lot more empty and just group up people randomly. You might get to make friends in random groups but I feel like once you're doing the content the focus becomes almost entirely the reward and getting the fuck out. In this case only people who are more socially inclined will attempt to converse in random groups.
What i've begun to realize is that making gameplay more efficient is assuming that any time that gets trimmed from the natural gameplay cycle is a good thing, like optimizing code to run faster. But in the end its all a waste of time anyway, and I find that hours spent talking to randoms and having fun, despite being a bigger time sink, end up being more rewarding. Optimizing time sinks make sense for a lot of tasks but in what is inherently just a chill time sink, perhaps focusing on how to make money making faster, the focus should be on making each activity meaningful.
As with all things its a tough balance to strike, but I dont think solo content is the issue, its a lot of the so called "quality of life" systems that exist to add shortcuts to activities previously gated behind social interaction. Perhaps ceasing to cater to these players as if they dont want a social experience theres plenty of rpgs and other mechanically challenging games to play, that perhaps we could regain a bit of that lost flame that MMORPGs had, even if I do admit that a lot of it was the novelty of the social immersion which today's internet has plenty of.
Regarding chat interfaces, IRC chat was very popular in the early 90's, updated in real time and handled personal messaging and creating channels (rooms), so it was nothing new, just novel to be able to do it inside the game.
Dont know from the 90s but in 2005-2010 i played c&c renegade and 80% of the time i was in chat having fun with other players but not much ppl used it we had a gaming comunity with over 20k registered players but only about 50 players used the chat
Novice Network in FFXIV and Global chat in PoE are absolutely amazing. I would log into PoE just to talk in Global. It was amazing and honestly some of the most fun I've had.
Honestly 14 has a lot of good vibes as far as communication goes and I have no idea why it's so special in that regard. Join any random party and people are talking, usually everyone is pretty nice. I remember a guy making a somewhat snide remark at me for messing something up, and does a total 180 apologizing to me when I said I was new and didn't know all the mechanics yet. Join a random in wow and no one says a single word. Not a single greeting or parting message, or a response to one. Unless someone causes a wipe or otherwise messes something up and then it's a venue for spewing vitriol. I'm sure there's douchebags in there but they're so few and far in between that I really just don't understand the disparity.
@@sirflimflam older community, much less of a rat race/'I am better than you' endgame and exclusivity, and a lot of people jaded from that toxicity in WoW. there's a lot of very small but crucial design choices that underline that like the focus on real balance, queuing everything and taking an active role against harassment.
But majorly WoW has become completely corroded by its only 'real' selling point being the self selecting high end, so I think it is a warped standard.
@shh I swap between wow & ffxiv mostly. When I join a random in wow I always greet the group and sometimes even get a response or we all start chatting. All we can do is keep being friendly through the clears and the wipes. I'm not big on using addons so I know I'm being carried a lot but during raid finder I get at least one that is friendly enough to give mechs and pointers.
@@sirflimflam You know the Final Fantasy community has always been different from that of any other MMO. In part I think it's a hold over from XI, and in part I think it's just the type of gamers that series attracts. I find a lot of them genuinely enjoy helping new people, and are just as happy to see a member of their team get gear as they are to get it for themselves.
i came from FFXIV as well. i play during pandemic cause i have nothing to do. thinking i prob gonna play for about 6 months and thats it. now been playing for a year and still going strong. mostly because of my free company.
This happened with every multiplayer game. I've never been really into MMO RPGS but I was into Halo. Back in the day people would talk to one another in game, you'd make friends to play with by chatting. Eventually features like group chat were added to consoles and players then opted to talk to friends even when they weren't playing together, I knew the moment that happened in game socialization was going to die.
Hey, I only played an MMRPG once,is there today a fun mmprg that is social? or is it a thing of the past all togheter?, thanks :)
man i feel that. as a new player (25 demon hunter ;) im having a hard time trying to find a group to play with or just someone to talk to.
Should play classic . Much more of a community . Met lots of people since launch
@@wildlifesaskatchewan "classic community" is just a myth. There's no community even there, they all see you as a tool to form a raid. No one wants to talk about personal lives or shit, if you are underleveled you are a waste of time for everyone. It's sad but it's today's reality
@@marcosbl100 maybe on whatever server u play on, but thats not the case on my high population pvp server at least
@@marcosbl100 really ? Well on my server I met lots of people who despite not currently playing now (they’re playing retail) I still talk to all the time. Guess it depends on the server
@@wildlifesaskatchewan it depends on the ppl some can find friends some cant if u start wow classic and dont approach to other players u will really feel alone
The WoD system of LFR was the most balanced and closest to rewarding it has ever been. Change my Mind. It let people do that raid yet it also had the effect of letting them know that this wasn't ACTUALLY doing the raid by not giving them tier sets and making the gear from the LFR raids look like horseshit.
? WoD LFR was terrible, it gave super shit rewards aside HFC.
@@rickroll9705 yes, thats what he said
Zoomer take.
@@cattysplat lfr is endgame content in the same way that arena skirmishes or m+2 are end game content. No, when it comes to raiding, mythic raiding is end game content, when it comes to pvp, high rating (2.8k+) arenas are end game content, when it comes to 5 man content high keys 20+ are end game content.
what was the final fantasy tactics battle reward music for?
I remember playing Lineage 2 and having MSN Messenger integrated on the game, not sure if you could sync your friends list with your contacts though, it's been a while.
Maybe a Discord or another 3rd party integration in-game would help.
I shouldn't even need - or want - a third party tool to communicate with friends/players in a game. There's nothing Discord can do that couldn't be packed into the game imo, and I agree with Asmon that we shouldn't be looking to extraneous sources for our communication needs.
In general wow has become a very awkward place because people just dont talk to each other. People are weird because its not engaging people together. Proximity voice chat would make people social and it would be a game changer definitely people also would be less toxic because it actually makes it more human and makes people actually feel what they are saying.
Ah yes nothing more engaging that pressing my LFM macro for an hour
Oh boy, here's the perspective from someone with extreme social anxiety. I think the fall of the WoW social interaction was the introduction of dungeon finder. I'm not really a social person, but I remember trade chat back then. You pretty much had to talk to find groups to do anything. That bred social interaction on it's own. I remember more than half of the time i would wind up in ventrillo with most of just the base dungeon groups. A lot of times it was people who didn't have a large group of players that they ran with already, so it wasn't like jumping into a discord with a whole mess of people you don't know. Just a small group. To get enchants or things made from professions you had to talk to people. Then raids. You had to generally be part of a guild to get into them, and almost always had to be part of the voice chat. If I didn't have to do these things I probably wouldn't from social anxiety, but I'm glad I did! I made friends and connections and some truly hilarious memories of progression gone wrong (Ie: pally tanking and forgetting threat buff that turned into a guildwide joke about me making sure I had it on before every damn pull). I remember guilds who were too small to raid joining with another guild to make a whole team. Now days, I have no guild, I have no social circle, the guilds I join just don't feel alive anymore, and I've gone through most of the game not needing a group or just dungeon finder/raid finder. I feel like forcing players to search out these connections to progress bred the community and social environment itself. For me the game forcing me to do this was beneficial because I'm just the type of person who won't go searching out these groups unless I need to. That's how WoW died for me. No gameplay aspect, just the social side. I know a lot of these things still exist, like high end raiding you can't dungeon finder, but when I join big guilds now, all of the chat has moved to discord instead of gchat or in game fun.
Wow that was a lot. Note, these are just my opinions and not fact. IE I also know this is exactly what the video said lol.
Completely agree. I came out of my shell to talk to people and make friends in these mmo games. Of course my first mmo was dcuo in like 2013 where everyone talked in chat and the normal gathering was outside getting occasionally raided by villains or just chilling with them was awesome. Now starting a new mmo it just seems like chat is always so empty even in packed areas. Theres no real reason to gather a group or reason to talk to people. FFXIV seems to be a little different but social interaction seems like an inconvenience now cuz I got so little time to play compared to what I had outside my job but that's of no fault but my own.
this is the first time I've seen someone with social anxiety want games to have social interactions and not just tear them down
@@blazmatic1216 While I don't consider my anxiety to be severe, I don't want to cave and cater to it. No one wants to be alone, especially in a community.
Totaly agree with you.
in vanilla a 58 warlock helped me get most of my demon pets, like he took 4 hours out of his day to help me, just cos he knew i didnt have them, i didnt even ask. and even to this day i try to pay that back in the game to people who need help :)
I like that in d2 i spend days to help some ppl to max gear and get good knowledge of the game but the game is really old so i was always happy about new players join a oldschool game like that
I think min max mentality and rushing to finish a game combined with the feeling of being replaceable it just makes the entire experience feel so empty. No one cares about you you just feel like an inconvenience if you're the one that wants to have a little fun or strike up a conversation.
I was a social player right up until people started following the meta. If I wasn't playing the meta class/build, people would spaz out.
someone in the chat literally said "dont ruin MMOs by catering to RPG players"
and thats why the genre is dying
Because it's not catering to RPG players, which kinda defeats the purpose of an MMORPG. Game companies are cutting out more and more of not only the RPG aspects, but also the Massively Multiplayer aspects, which leaves you with a single player game where other players can occasionally be seen traipsing about your game world. Which is actually really shallow, hollow, and boring.
Missing the dudes point a little I think. That was on the back of the discussion about catering to solo players or not. Pretty sure more meant in the sense of don't try and make MMORPG's like single player RPG's, not to purge RPG elements entirely.
The vast majority of my friends list is people who I’ve met on twitter or people who watch my videos and spotted me in game. The social aspect hasn’t gone away it’s just shifted to spaces on social media outside the game
Nearly cried, the times when I was playing aion which was pretty much hardcore mmorpg back in the day, without a party finder, sitting for hours and hours looking for a party, especially getting known as a good tank on the server. Fun times.
Even in the pre-EQ era, people bought the original Diablo just to chat on Bnet.
i am maybe guilty in this. i like to play to MMO´s, but still want to play solo all the time (always turning voip off in games)
It's not just online, even offline i remember people that live in the same neighbourhood used to hangout, and there was a real sens of community, we discussed common problems, needs, and shared news...
osrs is a good example for me, been playing for over 15 years and back then you would have a full friends list of people who knew you well because of the interactions you had together, idk if its because i got older or game guides became so prevalent or the introduction of the grand exchange but it feels like a silent grind now, i moved on to eso online and while its not as bad at all it still feels like we are heading that way
I miss early Runescape. god it was great.
@@sykez9136 me too brother
There was an MMO that was released a few years ago that would pride itself on not hand holding players through the experience. I saw videos on it while in Beta and the person who reviewed it was slammed for being too "casual" by fans of the game because he found himself confused and frustrated. However, in the video he was frequently asking other players for advice on what he *should* do. The response every time was, "This game isn't linear, whatever you want!"
The problem was that wasn't helpful at all. Apparently the progression and leveling system was based around a skills menu that the game never introduced to new players. Had he been pointed to the skills to get started, he would have been able to get more into the options and probably enjoyed himself more, giving it a better review. In that instance the "community" of the game didn't understand what it was like for new players.
Example about people getting annoyed when you try to chat in game is so true it hurts.
I think a big contributor to this is the timers in Mythic+ if you're typing you're not pulling or DPSing. There's no time to chat.
I was so Excited for STWOR because it was the first (AAA) MMO to have you able to lvl from 1-60 (max lvl) as a solo player
18:33 a solution to the automated system (group finder) that assembles a group for you and automatically replaces a removed player is to remove the later.. if you remove a player, the system won't automatically replace that player. So this rather than kick the player either the group needs to decide to talk and help the player and complete the run together, or the group disbands and everyone queues back up and sits in potentially 10+ minute queues again or maybe everyone gets the 1-2 hour dungeon deserter debuff (this would motivate more players to help rather than remove a player or disband the group)
So it's a simple fix, where you can have your cake and eat it too. Keep group finder, but once the group is assembled and dungeon has started, the automation ends, and everything beyond that point is manual, so if a player is removed, you'll have to manually try to find a replacement
This was why I quit WoW - it was around MoP and I realized I was just logging in, queueing up, and doing raids and shit without ever talking to anyone. And when you take the social element out of MMOs, literally the most unique part of the game, you realize that MMOs kind of suck...
And this is also why Arma and Squad have become as popular as they are.
blame league of legends. this game made solo queue modes popular and everybody was demanding it in every single game from that point on. That game was released end of 2009
Wtf has League have to do with an MMO? Different kind of game..
@@lucadesanctis563 e-sports. LoL is e-sport. Just like say WoW wants to be.
18:45 That's me, I played wow for 2-3 years without having worked out how to talk with others in the game, I had to type and most people would just look for someone else than teach me something basic... 2 times only people had the patience to type and teach me something and take me somewhere and show a place I have never been before. The thing that kept me going is the wow world and lore, just amazing stuff. I fell for it and got in a scam (a prompt invitation guild) and never had anything from it. So I quit, about 2 years ago. Now and than watching Asmongold and nobeel88 from time to time, but that's it now. I thing most people here will not relate or wont belive how dumb I'm been but...
i got to max level, ran mythic+ and beat the raid in wow without making a single friend. i swapped to ffxiv, and have lots of friends in a thriving guild community and crossworld linkshells, you don't need to talk in ffxiv, but people do anyway, and i think the lack of instanced zones especially in cities help with that, cause you always see the same people in the city, where as in wow you'll never see them again.
sad that most ppl nowdays rather watch streamer all day on twitch than actually play the game themselvs
D3 is a game u play on a console multiplayer with friends and have fun for max 100hours u cant compare that with d2 a game that i still play over 14 years i mean it get bored some times but u can still play it after one year break d3 isnt like that
Lmao, I was one of those max level solo people before joining a guild xd
Vanilla player here. I can say that I had a couple rl friends that played, but I did not level with. I played vanilla solo up until around level 52. Then I had to force myself to get out of my comfort zone and branch out. I can tell you as a player that leveled in vanilla before the expansion release of TBC, I loved the solo level experience. So much in fact, that I am playing it the same way in classic. Currently fresh level 60 orc enhance (leveled as dwarf prot pally in vanilla).
I will say the age factor is very important. A lot of hardcore WoW players back in the day were kids. Middle school to high school players who had nothing but time. As you got older and got to college, got a job,family, etc. there's no doubt that Vanilla WoW would never work for those same people. What Asmon said about not catering to your aging players and instead cater to new ones..that just doesn't work. Society is constantly evolving and our attention spans are shorter than ever. I think less socialization was made for both old and younger players. There's just too much shit to do now, too many games, etc.
The WoW community is just so goddamn toxic it's unbeliveble, especially the pvp community. If you find a nice group they are really a few in a bunch. The months where I grinded pvp in the first months of covid are some of my best memories in 12 years of WoW, just because of that squad.
But there was shitton of drama and some *REALLY* sketchy shit going on, and I guess at least one had severe schizophrenia.Classic Pvp now on Shazzrah EU was some of the craziest shit ever, Madseason said during his grind they had 800k caps sometimes. Shazzrah EU had times we had weeks of 1.6 million honor cap and people literally not sleeping for 3 days and accounts being sold and souls being crushed. Shoutout to my boys. / Jazz.
So glad you watched this on stream. Strife has some fantastic content that deserves way more subs.
Thanks matt :)
At Dreadmist server in Classic Wow, is still pretty easy to start conversation on world chat or in party, and I run premade weekends just to get some shit chat into discord and we get good laughs, while people usually in good mood or drunk/high :p And half of team is already Warlord or HWL on his character so we just having fun.
I remember my first mmo ragnarok online, i would spend every grind, and walking while chatting with my guildmates. It's such an amazing experience
I really, REALLY want asmongold to watch the otherland series.
back in classic, we'd get to a dungeon and if someone was doing bad we'd help them, and end up being friends
Yes, because the cost to replace that player was higher than making them better.
U can still see that some times just yesterday some ppl helped me out becouse im new in tbc but most players are arrogant and dont want to waste the time with new players what i can understand in some way even if its sad
Back when I last played a few expansions back i realized that all the social aspects of dungeons had been isolated to mythic runs... I've always been a casual player so it took me a while to discover this...
I was happily surprised to see people actually chatting and coordinating.. sadly mythic+ obviously attracted a more hardcore vibe i found unappealing. But the social aspect was much stronger in those groups than the ret of the game.
Every game has a social component. Even something like Contra, Battle Toads or Dark Souls. They are games which help to create instant bonds between strangers who have experienced the same challenges. This communication is of course outside of the game. From the looks of things, it seems as if MMOs have shifted towards this direction. Have socialization be outside rather than inside the game.
What's the worse that can happen when a game dissolves the way in which reputation matters.
Name changes, xrealm groups, faction changes, on and on. When identity is made meaningless so is the world that was built for it.
Before build guides and Content creators, we were forced to make friends to work as a collective to achieve goals. Now there are complete build guides and the fastest way to do shit. no need to ask anyone just google the answer. IMO
While I never played an MMORPG heavily, I have played Action MMOs. Phantasy Star Online 2 comes to mind. It embraces the social aspect in the game. Hell, its even a meme when people say "I'm not here for gameplay, I'm here to lobby grind". When people want to do endgame content, they legit say "CRADLE UH 11/12" or something along those lines in the all chat, plus it balances out solo play, they can drop in a 12 Player multiparty instance and still play with others while also being solo till they reach the boss. Alliances (PSO2's guild system) also seek people advertising in the in the lobby emoting with a message over their head saying they are recruiting., but the solo player also has the scouting feature to where they do like a mini application and lets the alliance find them. Plus, people in the game just chat and have casual conversations or even RP in certain blocks to meet more people or just to hang out with their Alliance members. I made several friends through this game through the amount of balance it has between social play and game play aspects. Even SEGA puts out campaigns that reward us for using underused social features or partying up before going into quests! With Phantasy Star Online 2: New Genesis around the corner as well, the social aspects of the game and the expression through character is getting expanded 10 fold.
That is just my experience though. I don't expect for this to really get taken seriously, because weeb game kekw under a WoW streamer's comment section and I'm probs the only one who has played it for as long as I have (700 hours btw). However, it just shows that there are companies that still put social features first, because it is integral for a MMO to survive.
City of Heroes was my first MMORPG.. And that game was heavily designed around socializing and cooperating with a group. Not to mention the community was so friendly! Miss those times.
It's all a numbers game now in WoW. Even Classic has that problem, where people are allergic to any group that isn't 1/1/3 and perfectly level appropriate, then bounce after one or two wipes anyway, or drop a key because don't think it's going to time without a thought for anyone else in group because groups are a dime _two_ dozen these days.
It's trash.
@realheadcrusher Yeah, ain't gonna stop them pissing in the community cheerios tho.
League and otehr DIGITAL SPORTS also taught people to only care about numbers.
We replaced the internet and its people with memes and numbers
Thats all there is now
Memes and numbers.
Why would you say something so controversial yet so brave?
I recall the nail in the coffin for classic wow came in the final patches of Wrath of the Lich King, which is when the dungeon finder was added. Up to that point they were making things easier to get into, which was actually good at the start of WotLK, but as they built beyond the simple changes introduced at the start of WotLK, the social aspects began to fall away. The end was nigh as they went into Cataclysm.
as a wow noob (started last december) i hope classic tbc will be more social than retail since i havent talked to a single other person in my 120 hours of play time.
Solo content in 1999 EverQuest: play a necromancer.
Play a warrior, solo play ends with lvl5. I think EQ was the absolute most brutal game ever made.
Hunt for perfection, has destroyed social interaction.
No max stats or perfect for role= no guild acceptance.
Had this in gw1 start, younger members wanted to maximise amount of grind to get those new fad items from dungeons rather than for the purpose of hanging out with friends and began to treat guild members as a means to finish said dungeon. (which of course, when henchmen npcs came out where you could micromanage and control each one)
Guild dungeon outings became a thing of the past and everyone that grinded till morning all had the same weapons, looks etc etc no identities unique, your name ment nothing only your skill.
Such a shame. The guild I was in during gw factions ruled the luxon guild battle arenas our tag was known across the gw World even in pve as a fun, tactical guild that welcomed new players and tbh used zergs to teach rather than what they became in gw2 (max skill only, certain roles, just for the grind)
I quit gw2, once the guild changed its attitude and many of my old friends plus me left its no fun to just grind.
I use to love hanging out in lions arch, just crafting and chatting for a afternoon. (it's all auto speed now and easy easy, legendary stuff is no longer legendary)
The need to be social inside of MMOs has massively decreased due to the existence of stuff like group finder etc, but the actual social stuff between groups of people who play together has moved onto stuff like discord. Problem with the whole automated group creating process is that it effectively stops strangers from interacting in the game and possibly making new friends because 99% of the time each person in your automated group is somebody you've never played with before nor somebody you'll probably never see again, never mind that they might be on different servers entirely.
The whole talking in trade chat to find people to complete instances was a pain but at least you ran into people you could have multiple points of contact with and you might even make friends or small groups that can clear instances and such together on a regular basis. This eventually builds a community inside the game itself which leads to more social interaction etc etc. That community on the servers still exists now due to stuff like Reddit but having it inside the game itself instead on a 3rd party website makes the game itself feel more "alive". Nevermind that there are people who don't know about/refuse to use stuff like Discord/Reddit and might never make a friend or ever have a conversation with another player despite playing a bloody MMO. Even re-adding in quests that require you to be in a group in order to complete would help with the problem.
that mmo in the video, allows u to switch your main power set and become hybrid classes, ie; hunter/healer
2016 forward has been the battle royale years. Game types come and go. Like music. Kids 10 years from now at 30yo will say. "why arent battle royales fun anymore".
This is why I am hoping Ashes doesn't change the emphasis on interactions. :)
Same
For me, I don't like to schedule game time ahead of time. Raids in particular. In an ideal world, I could just log in on a Friday night and feel like raiding and do a normal/heroic raid with people I know.
However, I'm forced to choose between scheduling a raid ahead of time with a guild and force myself to play even if I don't feel like it that night, or risk a PuG.
If I'm not feeling like going to the raid I ask myself if I want to waste my whole day or just 2/3 hours for full clear :D and since your raid team is constantly getting gear there's a higher chance of trading gear, getting gear
There should be content that requires groups and there should be solo content as well imo. I miss people having reputations on servers before dungeon q etc was implemented.
"Finding friends is hard" me meeting new people "Fuck off"
I had a whole ass paragraph typed out but decided not to send it. So instead I'll just say. MMORPGS are fun. But if you force some players to find other "class mates to join them for the group project" me and many others are gona struggle or just not get that content done. Social anxiety is very real, even over the internet. :/
Social Anxiety Gang
See but this is the problem, if solo players cant play MMORPGs because they dont wanna spend 30 minutes getting a group together or they dont wanna play with people at all then they should just play normal RPGs because thats what normal RPGs are designed for, solo players. Its not fair that solo players already have an entire genre to themselves but these companies continue to make the MMORPG genre less social just to cater to people who already have an entire genre to themselves. Im fine if MMOs wanna add some solo elements to their games but its not called massive multiplayer online for no reason.
i do like the point of shifting interactions to third party platforms. I honestly am looking for a game where I don't have to join anyones discord. In my favorite game The Elder Scrolls Online I usually only use guilds for selling stuff on vendors because they all use discord and guild chat is usually dead compared to its discord.
thats why i love FFXI so much the game force you to be social or you would have to quit the game because it was imposible to solo i miss that game play it for 7 years every day none stop
Its like finding a pot of gold when you stumble across a good discord group though
A guy freaked out on me for asking if anyone had discord.
In which situation? Dungeon/Raid finder? Or what do you mean?
@@Redteal11 in a group. It shouldn't matter. I was trying to see if anyone wanted to join my disc to communicate
I loved how so many people in chat were like "This fame in the yt video looks sick" yup Guild Wars 2 is freakin sick. Best business model too. Hands down my favorite mmo. Huge world bosses and group play you can just join without needing invites. Really good graphics and Worlds, especially in the new areas.
Something that I find interesting is that both play styles seem to want each other's benefits. MMO's have people who want the quality of single player content like the witcher or skyrim and those same single player players also want to create the same experience by modding in MMO features into single player games. There seems to be some kind of golden middle ground that would require huge amounts of development to fully flesh out both sides of the coin. The problem comes when there isn't enough for either party, not enough socializing and not enough solo spectacles.
Man, I hated sitting in Ironforge spamming log to do a 5 man
lfg* dam spell check
I type once and get a full group. Also, i'm a tank hehe
There was an easy solution to that - add people that were worth running with to your friend list, and be in an active guild that ran things often. When I hopped into WoW the first thing I did was ask what the guild mates were up to, and if they needed whatever my class was to get into it. The second thing I would do - start filing down my list of tank and healer friends to see if any of them were up for adventure. If neither of those routes produced fruit within 10 to 15 minutes, I'd weigh whether it was more valuable to insist on running the dungeon to the point of spamming in LFG or if there were something I could do solo that was more fruitful than spamming LFG chat. And of course any time I was in any town, I'd keep an eye on LFG chat and be open to securing a position in a dungeon if I had the requisite time to run the full thing.
Now what World of Warcraft was missing early on was a way to search for and invite people that were interested in party content. The LFG window they added for Mythic and M+ is the perfect solution in my opinion. Or at least a step in the right direction. A system that allows players to flag themselves up as available for a given type of content from any position in game, that also allows a party leader to search those players that are looking for a group based on their class, level, content type or other criteria goes a lot further than an LFG channel that's only available in a city and often full of spam.
No one likes doing that. So much toxic there too. 20 years ago that wasn't there. Cause the people that played it were a different generation.
that was way better than sitting 30 in queue than missing you queue
I play every game alone and I don't have any friends so I need this solo thingy.
started with MIRC o man i m old huh, that chat was before Yahoo messenger
What game is playing in the background during this video?
It looks like elder scrolls