Your videos are so informative and easy to follow. Really a big help for someone starting out! Something I can't find an answer to: rounding and backing are always mentioned together. Is backing always needed when you round the spine of a book for a case bound book? As this does not seem to be the case on modern books with rounded spines...?
Rounding and backing don't have to go together. In modern commercial books it's because backing makes the machine manufacture of books difficult and more expensive. But in hand binding there are structures that do not require backing or only have minimal backing - maybe 45 degree shoulders. The springback ledger is an example that is rounded but not backed at all. Most medieval books have some rounding (because of the swell) but no backing. The boards are shaped to the book and in the very clever K118 structure there are other mechanisms stopping the book falling forward in the boards. All the best, DAS
@@DASBookbinding Thank you for this explanation. If you didn't back the book and only rounded it, how much of a gap would you need to leave between the back edge of the cover board and the spine? Does there even need to be much of a gap between the cover board and spine stiffener or does a gap act as a hinge?
Great video sir. Can you explain the purpose of the long tapes on the center of the book. I assume they are glued in place to help hold the curve of the book once it is formed?
No, the round is mostly kept by the spine lining. The tapes, which are called supports, strengthen the connection between sections/signatures and attachment to the case, the cover. All the best, DAS
Thank you so much for your very helpful videos. As a bookbinding rookie, I've only just bought a pair of backing boards, but notice that yours have stops on them to prevent them being tapped down into the press further than you want. I find that mine slip down. I'm also using a finishing press, as I don't have funds for a lying press as well at the minute, and am wary of over-tightening it. Did you add the stops to the boards yourself and, if so, what did you use please? I don't want to ruin my lovely new beech boards!
The traditional backing boards don't have these stops, but they are common as it does tend to make them easier to use. Mine were made with these. Maybe you could glue a strip of grey board to the sides of your backing boards with paste. This will come off with water. Good luck! DAS
I always love your channel, it's very helpful and made me want to try. But rounded spine is too expert for me, i think I'm gonna start with flat spine. Also I can't find the scrim in my area. So here's the question : 1. Is there any different technique between round & flat spine? 2. Does it still required cotton tape? 3. What's alternative material for the scrim? Sorry beforehand for the long list of questions. Thank you.
Yes. Fro square back cased binding I like to use the Bradel method (check out my videos). You don't have to use tape supports, but I think it is a good idea. Any stiff cotton material can be used instead of scrim. Maybe starch it to make it easier to work with. Good luck. DAS
Hi Darryn, It seems from your video that the backing board thickness increases about 30-40% from bottom to top. What is the purpose of this design? I would have expected that a uniform pressure on the book were better than one one stronger near the back. Do you think backing would work with regular plane-parallel boards (same wedge shape)? Regards, Ernesto
I'm think you've lost me a bit. The board is wedged shaped so that the is more pressure into the joint. Just doing up the press will start to form the shoulders. Yes I have tried it just to see and you can back with flat boards. It's just harder to do. That directed pressure into the joint isn't helping to fan out the backs of the sections. Hope that answers your question. Yours, Darryn
Hey DAS - Love your videos. Two questions: 1) How long did you wait after gluing the spine before trimming the text block (in the prior video)? And then after trimming it, do you immediately start hammering? 2) At 11:20 is permalife 20 lb bond paper OK to use instead of kraft paper? Or should I just buy some kraft?
Until it is not tacky, or has soon as possible. I round straight after trimming. I want to round before the adhesive sets to strong. If I get distracted and come back the next day, and it's a cold day, I might warm the spine with a hairdryer. Yep, Permalife is an excellent spine lining material.
Hello again, I have been trying to round multiple books but I have found that it is very hard. At first it was due to the kettle stitches being too tight. I made them a bit looser now yet still the book won’t give in to getting rounded. How much time do you spend at rounding? How much time does it pass between gluing the spine and rounding? I do have to say that some hours passed between glueing and rounding in my case because I don’t have easy access to a guillotine. Thank you again for your time and your wonderful videos.
It sounds like your PVA dries very stiff. Is it a PVA designed for paper? If I don;t get to rounding soon after glueing the spine I usually soften the PVA with some heat using a hairdryer. Hope this helps. Darryn
DAS Bookbinding It’s PVA that’s normally used for school projects and such, so I would assume that it is. It dries very quickly. I’ll try you heat gun method then. Thank you, again
If you were an amateure binding books at home and didn't having the device with the angles, how would you back the spine? I really don't know if I can freestyle it without any angle-help
Yes, very good question. Some binders really object to taking a hammer to the spine of a book. Many binders are very good at forming shoulders by using a good amount of pressure with a bone folder. Maybe they only bring the shoulders to 45 degrees. So the step at the end where I sharpen up the shoulders by pushing a board into the shoulder and drawing back on the spine with the bone folder is what they do without the hammering. I have been thinking of trying to back a book with some flat wood boards, wood claps, bricks and a claw hammer. I think it's possible. Might give it a go this week. Stay tuned!
Absolutely you can hand sew endbands on a case bound book. The spine has to be in its final shape before sewing headbands. So yes, after rounding, backing and lining. Plus you want the lining on to sew through. This stops the thread tearing up the spine and is part of the original intent of headbands in providing structural integrity to the book. A square back, like in my Bradel video, is a perfect place to start with headbands as you don't have to deal with the backing. I'm not a headband expert, but can competently do a single core with a bead, and if feeling very good I will tackle a French double. It is on the list for a future video. Maybe early next year? The list is long and time is always short:)
Question: I have been looking at getting the scrim and I saw several people say it is essentially cheese cloth... Would that be a suitable alternative?
Where does one get the lined paper that you use? It’s lined on the long dimension so that when folded it comes out horizontal in the good. Love the videos!
I print it myself. I was sharing the files I use but the last time I tried printing them there was problem and I haven't been able to sort it out. There are some sources online for lined paper. Good luck! DAS
What is the best angle for the backing board edge? Can I back the book on bare wood after sloping the board edge without using a brass or metal layer on the edge? Thanks in advance.
The angle doesn't have to be much. Maybe 20 deg. More important is that the boards are wedge shaped. It is also common for them to not be brass lined. When I started out the ones I used were just wood. If I hadn't lost these I'd still use them. But it is best if they are a hardwood as the shoulder of the board does get rounded over easily and the face dinged by the hammer. Here are some at Talas that are not brass edged. www.talasonline.com/Backing-Boards
Hi there, and thank you for sharing your extensive knowledge. Do you know why notebooks aren't traditionally rounded and backed? Is it just because of time/resources or something more functional?
If you mean modern machine made notebooks, it's because machines aren't good at rounding and backing and flat backs are much cheaper to make. If you dig into it, the machines used to sew books like to use thin thread. With thin thread there is no swell to distribute and help round and back. But if you mean pre 20th century notebooks, these would have been done by a specialist bookbinder who made "stationery" binding and the higher quality ones would have been rounded and backed. Even higher quality would have been springbacks. So I would say they are traditionally rounded and backed and modernly not. BTW, the cased rounded and backed book is a fantastic notebook.
I've see a few courses advertised where people add tubes or hollows to case bound books without explaining why. The addition of these tubes changes the mechanics of the joints and I think often add stress to the joint. So more work for no obvious reason. The traditional English cased book is predominantly made the way I demonstrate with minor variation here and there. Until someone tells me differently I'd say the main reason these courses use tubes is marketing. There are bindings that use tubes for good reasons. This is not one of them.
@@DASBookbinding I see. Understood. Thank you. I am currently working on replacing a hardcover case bound book with a leather one. Do you have any comments/resources on doing a leather one? It's a full-leather case, and not one with cardboard that's wrapped with leather. Or perhaps it's not advisable?
@@benjaminbong Leather can be over rated. But you can just follow the exact process as in this series but change the cloth to leather. It will work better if you pare (thin) the leather for turning over the edges of the book and to avoid swelling at the head and tail spine area turn-ins. 19th century English style leather bindings had hollows attached to the spine, but the boards were attached before covering - not case bound. Hope this helps.
In the rounding process you need some flexibility in the spine. PVA is a great adhesive because it remains flexible. But it is more flexible before it is completely set. It does take days to reach the final state. But it is best to round as soon as possible after glueing the spine. But you do want the adhesive to no longer be tacky. It should be dry to the touch. If you do leave it for days then a bit of heat from a hair dryer will soften it nicely. Ciao, DAS
Thanks for the quick and informative reply :) And thank you for your wonderful channel as well. Some of the best content I have seen in a long time here.
I want to make a book that will be about 350 pages. I am not sure I can minimise the swell enough to make a flat backed binding work, although it would be nice. But rounding might be enough to get the boards parallel. Is backing necessary? Could I just not do that, as I don't have the necessary equipment?
Have a look at my video on rounding and backing. Rounding and backing will stop the text from sagging in the boards. But you don't have to do it. All modern machine made books sag in their boards. Rounding alone on a modern style book produces a dilemma around board attachment.
It is common to use Japanese paper as a spine lining and for guarding endpapers. So, yes. I think it is best to think of handmade paper as having 2 grain directions rather than no grain. The vat person will never have shaken the mould equally in both directions. One will have more fibre lined up than the other. And now the paper will stretch in both directions, usually more in one than the other. Thus, thinking of it having a grain in both directions, and knowing which is the stronger, helps make design decisions. Happy binding!
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This might be one of the most helpful videos I have seen on bookbinding to date. I was *almost* doing it right. :)
Glad you think so. Would be nice if TH-cam and Google thought the same way:) DAS
Thanks for the videos, there are very illustrative
You are welcome! DAS
Your videos are so informative and easy to follow. Really a big help for someone starting out!
Something I can't find an answer to: rounding and backing are always mentioned together. Is backing always needed when you round the spine of a book for a case bound book? As this does not seem to be the case on modern books with rounded spines...?
Rounding and backing don't have to go together. In modern commercial books it's because backing makes the machine manufacture of books difficult and more expensive. But in hand binding there are structures that do not require backing or only have minimal backing - maybe 45 degree shoulders. The springback ledger is an example that is rounded but not backed at all. Most medieval books have some rounding (because of the swell) but no backing. The boards are shaped to the book and in the very clever K118 structure there are other mechanisms stopping the book falling forward in the boards. All the best, DAS
@@DASBookbinding Thank you for this explanation. If you didn't back the book and only rounded it, how much of a gap would you need to leave between the back edge of the cover board and the spine? Does there even need to be much of a gap between the cover board and spine stiffener or does a gap act as a hinge?
Great video sir. Can you explain the purpose of the long tapes on the center of the book. I assume they are glued in place to help hold the curve of the book once it is formed?
No, the round is mostly kept by the spine lining. The tapes, which are called supports, strengthen the connection between sections/signatures and attachment to the case, the cover. All the best, DAS
Thank you so much for your very helpful videos. As a bookbinding rookie, I've only just bought a pair of backing boards, but notice that yours have stops on them to prevent them being tapped down into the press further than you want. I find that mine slip down. I'm also using a finishing press, as I don't have funds for a lying press as well at the minute, and am wary of over-tightening it. Did you add the stops to the boards yourself and, if so, what did you use please? I don't want to ruin my lovely new beech boards!
The traditional backing boards don't have these stops, but they are common as it does tend to make them easier to use. Mine were made with these. Maybe you could glue a strip of grey board to the sides of your backing boards with paste. This will come off with water. Good luck! DAS
@@DASBookbinding What a good idea! Thanks so much :-D
I always love your channel, it's very helpful and made me want to try. But rounded spine is too expert for me, i think I'm gonna start with flat spine. Also I can't find the scrim in my area. So here's the question :
1. Is there any different technique between round & flat spine?
2. Does it still required cotton tape?
3. What's alternative material for the scrim?
Sorry beforehand for the long list of questions.
Thank you.
Yes. Fro square back cased binding I like to use the Bradel method (check out my videos). You don't have to use tape supports, but I think it is a good idea. Any stiff cotton material can be used instead of scrim. Maybe starch it to make it easier to work with. Good luck. DAS
Hi Darryn,
It seems from your video that the backing board thickness increases about 30-40% from bottom to top. What is the purpose of this design?
I would have expected that a uniform pressure on the book were better than one one stronger near the back.
Do you think backing would work with regular plane-parallel boards (same wedge shape)?
Regards,
Ernesto
I'm think you've lost me a bit. The board is wedged shaped so that the is more pressure into the joint. Just doing up the press will start to form the shoulders. Yes I have tried it just to see and you can back with flat boards. It's just harder to do. That directed pressure into the joint isn't helping to fan out the backs of the sections. Hope that answers your question. Yours, Darryn
@@DASBookbinding Thanks for the clarification. I see now how it works.
Hey DAS - Love your videos. Two questions:
1) How long did you wait after gluing the spine before trimming the text block (in the prior video)? And then after trimming it, do you immediately start hammering?
2) At 11:20 is permalife 20 lb bond paper OK to use instead of kraft paper? Or should I just buy some kraft?
Until it is not tacky, or has soon as possible. I round straight after trimming. I want to round before the adhesive sets to strong. If I get distracted and come back the next day, and it's a cold day, I might warm the spine with a hairdryer.
Yep, Permalife is an excellent spine lining material.
Thank you for the tutorial! Is it traditional or wise to re-guillotine the fore edge for a straight look after the spine has been rounded?
No. It's traditional for the round to be transferred to the fore-edge. All the best, DAS
Hello again, I have been trying to round multiple books but I have found that it is very hard. At first it was due to the kettle stitches being too tight. I made them a bit looser now yet still the book won’t give in to getting rounded. How much time do you spend at rounding? How much time does it pass between gluing the spine and rounding? I do have to say that some hours passed between glueing and rounding in my case because I don’t have easy access to a guillotine. Thank you again for your time and your wonderful videos.
It sounds like your PVA dries very stiff. Is it a PVA designed for paper? If I don;t get to rounding soon after glueing the spine I usually soften the PVA with some heat using a hairdryer. Hope this helps. Darryn
DAS Bookbinding It’s PVA that’s normally used for school projects and such, so I would assume that it is. It dries very quickly. I’ll try you heat gun method then. Thank you, again
If you were an amateure binding books at home and didn't having the device with the angles, how would you back the spine? I really don't know if I can freestyle it without any angle-help
Yes, very good question. Some binders really object to taking a hammer to the spine of a book. Many binders are very good at forming shoulders by using a good amount of pressure with a bone folder. Maybe they only bring the shoulders to 45 degrees. So the step at the end where I sharpen up the shoulders by pushing a board into the shoulder and drawing back on the spine with the bone folder is what they do without the hammering. I have been thinking of trying to back a book with some flat wood boards, wood claps, bricks and a claw hammer. I think it's possible. Might give it a go this week. Stay tuned!
@@DASBookbinding Thank you so much for the fast respond!
Is it possible to hand-sew headbands on a case bound book, and if so, would you do it before gluing and backing the spine?
Absolutely you can hand sew endbands on a case bound book. The spine has to be in its final shape before sewing headbands. So yes, after rounding, backing and lining. Plus you want the lining on to sew through. This stops the thread tearing up the spine and is part of the original intent of headbands in providing structural integrity to the book. A square back, like in my Bradel video, is a perfect place to start with headbands as you don't have to deal with the backing. I'm not a headband expert, but can competently do a single core with a bead, and if feeling very good I will tackle a French double. It is on the list for a future video. Maybe early next year? The list is long and time is always short:)
Question: I have been looking at getting the scrim and I saw several people say it is essentially cheese cloth... Would that be a suitable alternative?
I think cheese cloth is a finer weave than traditional scrim. But you can still use it. It also won't be as stiff and thus a bit harder to use. DAS
Where does one get the lined paper that you use? It’s lined on the long dimension so that when folded it comes out horizontal in the good. Love the videos!
I print it myself. I was sharing the files I use but the last time I tried printing them there was problem and I haven't been able to sort it out. There are some sources online for lined paper. Good luck! DAS
What is the best angle for the backing board edge?
Can I back the book on bare wood after sloping the board edge without using a brass or metal layer on the edge?
Thanks in advance.
The angle doesn't have to be much. Maybe 20 deg. More important is that the boards are wedge shaped. It is also common for them to not be brass lined. When I started out the ones I used were just wood. If I hadn't lost these I'd still use them. But it is best if they are a hardwood as the shoulder of the board does get rounded over easily and the face dinged by the hammer. Here are some at Talas that are not brass edged.
www.talasonline.com/Backing-Boards
@@DASBookbinding Thanks for your guidance.
Hi there, and thank you for sharing your extensive knowledge. Do you know why notebooks aren't traditionally rounded and backed? Is it just because of time/resources or something more functional?
If you mean modern machine made notebooks, it's because machines aren't good at rounding and backing and flat backs are much cheaper to make. If you dig into it, the machines used to sew books like to use thin thread. With thin thread there is no swell to distribute and help round and back. But if you mean pre 20th century notebooks, these would have been done by a specialist bookbinder who made "stationery" binding and the higher quality ones would have been rounded and backed. Even higher quality would have been springbacks. So I would say they are traditionally rounded and backed and modernly not. BTW, the cased rounded and backed book is a fantastic notebook.
@@DASBookbinding Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Oh wow, that is so interesting. Thank you!
Hi there! thank you for your videos. They have been very helpful. One question: why are you not using a tube for the spine here?
I've see a few courses advertised where people add tubes or hollows to case bound books without explaining why. The addition of these tubes changes the mechanics of the joints and I think often add stress to the joint. So more work for no obvious reason. The traditional English cased book is predominantly made the way I demonstrate with minor variation here and there. Until someone tells me differently I'd say the main reason these courses use tubes is marketing. There are bindings that use tubes for good reasons. This is not one of them.
@@DASBookbinding I see. Understood. Thank you. I am currently working on replacing a hardcover case bound book with a leather one. Do you have any comments/resources on doing a leather one? It's a full-leather case, and not one with cardboard that's wrapped with leather. Or perhaps it's not advisable?
@@benjaminbong Leather can be over rated. But you can just follow the exact process as in this series but change the cloth to leather. It will work better if you pare (thin) the leather for turning over the edges of the book and to avoid swelling at the head and tail spine area turn-ins. 19th century English style leather bindings had hollows attached to the spine, but the boards were attached before covering - not case bound. Hope this helps.
@@DASBookbinding got it. Thank you so much!
Small question. Does the glue need to be completely dry when starting the rounding? Or is it better to do it sooner? Thanks
In the rounding process you need some flexibility in the spine. PVA is a great adhesive because it remains flexible. But it is more flexible before it is completely set. It does take days to reach the final state. But it is best to round as soon as possible after glueing the spine. But you do want the adhesive to no longer be tacky. It should be dry to the touch. If you do leave it for days then a bit of heat from a hair dryer will soften it nicely. Ciao, DAS
Thanks for the quick and informative reply :) And thank you for your wonderful channel as well. Some of the best content I have seen in a long time here.
I want to make a book that will be about 350 pages. I am not sure I can minimise the swell enough to make a flat backed binding work, although it would be nice. But rounding might be enough to get the boards parallel. Is backing necessary? Could I just not do that, as I don't have the necessary equipment?
Have a look at my video on rounding and backing. Rounding and backing will stop the text from sagging in the boards. But you don't have to do it. All modern machine made books sag in their boards. Rounding alone on a modern style book produces a dilemma around board attachment.
@@DASBookbinding thank you!
Instead of scrim, could I used a Japanese paper that didn't have a grain?
It is common to use Japanese paper as a spine lining and for guarding endpapers. So, yes. I think it is best to think of handmade paper as having 2 grain directions rather than no grain. The vat person will never have shaken the mould equally in both directions. One will have more fibre lined up than the other. And now the paper will stretch in both directions, usually more in one than the other. Thus, thinking of it having a grain in both directions, and knowing which is the stronger, helps make design decisions. Happy binding!
@@DASBookbinding thank you! I just watched your video discussing papers. :) excellent sources!
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