Regarding your question "Mathematics and bookbinding, does it get any better?"... having studied mathematics as an undergrad, and doing bookbinding now, I can definitively answer that question with "No, it does not." ;-)
This is one of the best descriptions of rounding and backing that I have come across. You are the first person who has given an explanation of why it is done. Mostly it is just presented as something you do. Can't say you answered any questions for me as I had already worked most of them out. What you did do was put things into a logical structure, which made it a lot easier to understand.
Thanks Nigel. You have reminded me I left something out of the video and that was to talk about frottoirs and similar tools. I forgot because I've never used one, but I did mean to mention it. DAS
Thank you. I particularly like your style of explaining the reasoning and then leaving up to the person to decide what's appropriate in their circumstances. Not one good way but one thelat fits the objectives.
Great video! I was having trouble finding a good backing hammer or even a cobblers hammer. So I made one from a regular hammer that I grinded down to be convex then I used sandpaper to buff out and polish the face. It's smaller than a normal backing hammer, but that makes it great for books with raised chords!
Stellar video! Lots of great info, plus a new turn-of-phrase: cheap comes with a price. Never heard it before, but it’s great. Now to get back to work with my cheap, homemade tools. 🤣
I would move to Australia just to be able to learn from you in person. This is one of my favorite channels and i use Everything you teach to make the best books i can. You're a genuine treasure
I really enjoyed this video, perhaps my favourite of all your videos that I have watched. Your explanations are very clear and I think that you do a great job of showing the techniques. I hope that people will have a better appreciation for bookbinders' skills, after these videos, and will be prepared to pay the extra cost over machine-binding for special books.
Another great video Darryn. I really appreciate the indepth explanations of why things tend to be done certain ways. It really helps me to remember things if the reasoning behind it is explained. Add in that you provide us with links to the supporting documentation and you really do make it a lot easier to learn things. Got a 2 day course on Limp Vellum Binding with Kathy Abbot coming up next month - it will be interesting to see if I find in-person teaching as opposed to online best.
Lucky you Dave! I did Kathy's online stub binding workshop last month. I wish I had half her experience, knowledge and skill! In person is always best. All the best, Darryn
@@DASBookbinding Yeah, couldn't believe when I saw the course listed and signed up for it right away. In the meantime I'm waiting on her book arriving which I'll do my best to inwardly digest beforehand.
@@daveturnbull7221 You might consider buying Chris Clarkson's iconic work on limp vellum bindings. His son is still selling it through his website. There is also a video out there somewhere. www.clarksonconservation.com/book-sales/
Fabulous video tutorial as usual. I am full steam ahead with book binding. I suspect I have reached the point that i need to start investing in some real equipment. First photography, now this! I’m not sure if I should thank you or blame you for getting me hooked on an even more expensive hobby. Haha. But seriously, I genuinely appreciate your knowledge, technique, and consistent willingness to share. 😁📚🔨
I stumbled accross this video when I was searching for the making of medieval books and their bindings. I absolutely loved it and was glued (ah, pun intended) to it for the whole duration. So what started initially with a fun idea of making a simple "medieval-like" notebook for fun, became a group of several ideas on books to create and to bind (e.g: I have a LOTR book that is in not so great shape, and I started thinking and imagining about how fun and lovely it would be to bind it with something thematic and artistic!). Thank a lot for this, and mesmerizing (and really informative) video!
Some insightful and incredibly useful information for anyone interested in the process of bookbinding. Thank you for all the time and effort you've put into your channel. I can't wait to see what comes next!
Thank you so very much for your information! I have only what tools I can cobble together, but I have enjoyed bookbinding for years. I would love to support your work in the future when conditions are better! For now, back to my current effort: a large writing journal. Review with your videos is instructive and relieving.
Thanks for an accurate and comprehensive demonstration! And you're quite right about glancing vs. hammering blows for backing -- those shoulder muscles can do some damage. Really interesting point about concave backs, too. With the usual trimming protocol, there might be unwanted contact with the shelf and tail edge . . . and new possibilities open up for enhancing the case instead of the headbands on a book block . . .
"Maths and bookbinding. What could be better." Only a physicist could say such a thing. . . . Oh, wait. Another great video. Probably the best explanation for rounding and backing I have ever read or seen. Thank you once again!
I prefer gilding after the sewing but before the rounding, because despite its slightly lesser quality on the negative rounded edge, doing otherwise seems too much of a hassle.
Thank you Darryn! I like your deep dives, and good ideas of how to think about processes, even if I am already doing them, I always pick up ideas! Somehow I did not find the link to reddit article with maths though (listings below did not include it??!).. thanks again!
Thank you for this video (and all of your videos!!!) I got to show an Amish man how to make a book! (not that I'm a pro but I really cant show him your videos LOL)
Thank you for that link to James Brockman’s video. It’s a rather intriguing idea. I wonder whether it might be of particular use for binding sheet music, where the book lying flat without being held open would be especially handy. Has anyone else posted videos of attempting the technique, do you know?
The amount of rounding is not so important when you are binding blank jotters. More care is needed when rebinding an old book, or even a valuable modern edition. Before Cobden S. in the early 1800's, as well as often in the 1700's and even the 1600's backs were made quite flat as the text was printed closely often in two or three columns. This often left little by way of gutters and the book had to open well flat to make it readable. Over rounding, even the trad, one third circle will many times remove what gutters there were and will make the book difficult or impossible to read. I've seen this even from binders of vast experience. Good video, Matey, very useful for those learning about the beautiful craft.
I would like to bind loose sheets/papers and round the back of it! Is there any proper technique to do that? Please suggest some videos. Before I forget, this video on rounding and backing is brilliant and educative. Thanks
I don't really like this technique. Not sure if there any videos on the web for it. But you can get the block into a rounded shape using something like this schmedt.com/tools-devices/wooden-tools/rounding-block/ Any rounded surface will do - some PVC pipe. Put it into a press in the rounded shape and then Lumbeck (double-fan) as usual. Hope this helps.
What are you doing at 2:40-2:50? Given the thin strips of paper dropping down, it seems like you're using some kind of hand plane instead of a guillotine to trim the fore edge. Is that right?
I'm wondering if it would be possible to do the rounding without a backing hammer but instead with a clean regular hammer if you go slow an carefull enough?
Hi Darryn. I just used my new brass frottoir for backing for the first time. It was truly a revelation. I found that it was so much easier than hammering, especially with raised cords. More importantly, my results we so much better than I had ever achieved with a hammer. More consistent and even, forming the perfect "mushroom" shape. I think that this was the result of having more control with the frottoir than I have ever been able to develop with the hammer. Have you used one? If so, what are your thoughts on any dis/advantages of using a frottoir vs. a hammer for backing?
I bet it is. A friend and I have been talking about going halves in one of Jeff's hybrid ones. Maybe if the money is flowing like water later in the year:) It's not Jeff's prices, it's the cost of postage to Australia!
I have a question which may sound daft but hopefully many will answer! I am quite inspired to take up this as a hobby, but once you have made a book full of blank paper, what do you do next? I'm not into journaling or scapbooking or anything so there must be other things people make with their bookbinding skills ? or is it about making books with blank paper and selling them? Thanks for any input!
It's such a good question I haven't had the time to answer it. There are nice formatted copies of books out of copyright. I like binding up bookbinding journals that I've printed out. The Guild of Book Workers Journal is available in pdf and I've been meaning to bind these up. You can also completely rebind new and old books. Pulling down new books can be tricky because of the modern adhesives. And I'm very careful about what old books I pull down as I don't like destroying other peoples bindings. Good examples of this is the group known as Tomorrows Past.
I think what you describe is what is used for rounding a text of single sheets of paper before double-fan binding. Not useful for the process shown in this video.
Can you round the spine of a book that has loose leaves that have been glued? I only need to round it a little bit to avoid the spines going inwards on my paperbacks.
If you want a rounded single sheet book it's best to put the round in during the spine glueing process. People will use a tube to rest the book in to put the round in the sheets and then clamp it and glue the spine. The next best thing is to round the book while the glue is still not fully set and more flexible. Some small commercial binderies might even have a heated plate they put the spine on to soften the glue. But once the book has been bound trying to round a double-fan binding or commercial Perfect binding is likely to end in a ruined book. Hope this helps.
I would never use chip board for bookbinding - just not a binding material. Much too heavy and I'm not sure about the glue they use in it. I'd recommend a binders board between 1.5 and 2.5mm thick. Without more details, I'd say 0.08in Davey board would be the go. www.talasonline.com/Davey-Binders-Board
I have heard that for very thin text blocks (say 10mm) that would be difficult to back, there is a solution where rounding only is done and a string or cord about the width of the greyboard is glued to the text block to create false backing. It is possible for you to demonstrate this method in a video?
Hi Ian, yes this was a technique developed by Thomas Harrison I believe. June showed me this years ago. She gave a demonstration at a QBG meeting a few years ago too. I might put it on the list. It's hard to hide the ends of the cord. DAS
You can't control the rounding until the spine is glued. Also can't trim the fore-edge. Actually, you can, there just won't be much control and it will likely be all out of shape. The best way to check this is to try both ways and see. Good luck! DAS
@Das Bookbinding Have you experimented at all with James Brockman's concave spine design? I found the video you linked to be fascinating. It makes me think that all modern books should go that route.
It was made by Frank Wiesner. He's no longer around. But he made a lot of presses and they come up for sale occasionally. His presses are all around the world.
For trimming edges I have some videos on this. Check out the one called something like "Trimming without..." It's basically an improvised plough. Corners is another story. I have a big machine for rounding corners. I've heard the Lasco corner rounder works well but can only do about 1/2inch at a time.
I don't consider chip board a binding material, thus don't use it. Also not sure there is such a thing as "quality" chip board. Bookbinders use "binder's board" or mill board. A very good economical board is Davey Board (a brand of binder's board), easily available from Talas if you are in the US. www.talasonline.com/paper-and-board/bookbinding Ahh... Just became aware that in the craft bookbinding parts of the internet binder's board is sometimes called "chip board". It's not.
Essential for a well made post medieval book:) Medieval books weren't backed and late-medieval were self rounding, and functioned wonderfully. Unfortunately no one has trained a machine in how to use a backing hammer!
Regarding your question "Mathematics and bookbinding, does it get any better?"... having studied mathematics as an undergrad, and doing bookbinding now, I can definitively answer that question with "No, it does not." ;-)
Well dang, here I found another of my kind xD
But increases the fun!
Please know that your effort is very much appreciated, every time. So interesting!
This is one of the best descriptions of rounding and backing that I have come across. You are the first person who has given an explanation of why it is done. Mostly it is just presented as something you do. Can't say you answered any questions for me as I had already worked most of them out. What you did do was put things into a logical structure, which made it a lot easier to understand.
Thanks Nigel. You have reminded me I left something out of the video and that was to talk about frottoirs and similar tools. I forgot because I've never used one, but I did mean to mention it. DAS
Coming back to this video again to work on my first rounded and backed quarto for a friend! Thank you so much for the education!!
I always appreciate how thorough you are in your videos. Thank you again for such a helpful lesson!
Oooh this was interesting!!! Learned a little history :)
Brilliant video that answered a lot of questions that I've had as an amateur bookbinder. Thank you!
My Friday evening treat! Great tip about slightly heating the glue if you forgot to round after gluing, or life got in the way. Thanks, as ever!
Thank you. I particularly like your style of explaining the reasoning and then leaving up to the person to decide what's appropriate in their circumstances. Not one good way but one thelat fits the objectives.
Great video! I was having trouble finding a good backing hammer or even a cobblers hammer. So I made one from a regular hammer that I grinded down to be convex then I used sandpaper to buff out and polish the face. It's smaller than a normal backing hammer, but that makes it great for books with raised chords!
I was able to find several on ebay (about 8 years ago) very affordably (
Stellar video! Lots of great info, plus a new turn-of-phrase: cheap comes with a price. Never heard it before, but it’s great. Now to get back to work with my cheap, homemade tools. 🤣
I also used home made tools for many years. I'm extremely lucky to live not far from Frank or I'd still be using them. DAS
I would move to Australia just to be able to learn from you in person. This is one of my favorite channels and i use Everything you teach to make the best books i can. You're a genuine treasure
Thanks. DAS
Again, another watched (and rewatched, and rewatched) video!
I really enjoyed this video, perhaps my favourite of all your videos that I have watched.
Your explanations are very clear and I think that you do a great job of showing the techniques. I hope that people will have a better appreciation for bookbinders' skills, after these videos, and will be prepared to pay the extra cost over machine-binding for special books.
Another great video Darryn. I really appreciate the indepth explanations of why things tend to be done certain ways. It really helps me to remember things if the reasoning behind it is explained. Add in that you provide us with links to the supporting documentation and you really do make it a lot easier to learn things.
Got a 2 day course on Limp Vellum Binding with Kathy Abbot coming up next month - it will be interesting to see if I find in-person teaching as opposed to online best.
Lucky you Dave! I did Kathy's online stub binding workshop last month. I wish I had half her experience, knowledge and skill! In person is always best. All the best, Darryn
@@DASBookbinding Yeah, couldn't believe when I saw the course listed and signed up for it right away. In the meantime I'm waiting on her book arriving which I'll do my best to inwardly digest beforehand.
@@daveturnbull7221 You might consider buying Chris Clarkson's iconic work on limp vellum bindings. His son is still selling it through his website. There is also a video out there somewhere. www.clarksonconservation.com/book-sales/
Thank you for such a clear explanation, it is really helpful to learn the when and whys as well as the how tos. Brilliant!
This has been so helpful and will be a great reference for the future. Thank you.
another great video. lot of Informations. and now i will do my very best at translating. Greetings from Bavaria
Another great video, and thanks for the reminder on not overtightening stitches.
Your videos are so rich!! Thank you for sharing all that knowledge with us!
Thank you. I enjoyed the arch-column similarity (especially with the Trinity College Library) -- it gave me a new perspective on backed books 🤗
Thank you for another great video!
Fabulous video tutorial as usual. I am full steam ahead with book binding. I suspect I have reached the point that i need to start investing in some real equipment. First photography, now this! I’m not sure if I should thank you or blame you for getting me hooked on an even more expensive hobby. Haha. But seriously, I genuinely appreciate your knowledge, technique, and consistent willingness to share. 😁📚🔨
Sorry. But you can combine them. Lots of photo books:)
DAS
I stumbled accross this video when I was searching for the making of medieval books and their bindings. I absolutely loved it and was glued (ah, pun intended) to it for the whole duration. So what started initially with a fun idea of making a simple "medieval-like" notebook for fun, became a group of several ideas on books to create and to bind (e.g: I have a LOTR book that is in not so great shape, and I started thinking and imagining about how fun and lovely it would be to bind it with something thematic and artistic!). Thank a lot for this, and mesmerizing (and really informative) video!
Some insightful and incredibly useful information for anyone interested in the process of bookbinding.
Thank you for all the time and effort you've put into your channel. I can't wait to see what comes next!
Thank you so very much for your information! I have only what tools I can cobble together, but I have enjoyed bookbinding for years. I would love to support your work in the future when conditions are better!
For now, back to my current effort: a large writing journal. Review with your videos is instructive and relieving.
I love your videos. Thank’s for sharing your knowledge with us!
Thanks for an accurate and comprehensive demonstration! And you're quite right about glancing vs. hammering blows for backing -- those shoulder muscles can do some damage.
Really interesting point about concave backs, too. With the usual trimming protocol, there might be unwanted contact with the shelf and tail edge . . . and new possibilities open up for enhancing the case instead of the headbands on a book block . . .
Excelent as always! Always providing a masterful work master. I love your videos.
All your videos are so helpful!!
"Maths and bookbinding. What could be better." Only a physicist could say such a thing. . . . Oh, wait.
Another great video. Probably the best explanation for rounding and backing I have ever read or seen. Thank you once again!
I enjoyed seeing the math of it all!
Un Trabajo Grandioso.
Gracias por Subtítulos en Español!!!
Wonderful video ! Thank you so much for making it . I'm just recently getting into making a simple book home printed.
p.s. you can also crisp up the backing to a nice 90 degrees with a stout folder, pushing the edge down against the intended book boards.
Merci pour la traduction ! C'est encore plus clair comme cela !
That is thanks to Google. Glad it works!
I prefer gilding after the sewing but before the rounding, because despite its slightly lesser quality on the negative rounded edge, doing otherwise seems too much of a hassle.
Thank you for your kind words.
"Math of bookbinding" is probably the less succesful topic of Reddit bookbinding's subs. Fortunately.
Bring on more!!!! Thanks! Darryn
this was so helpful
Thank you Darryn! I like your deep dives, and good ideas of how to think about processes, even if I am already doing them, I always pick up ideas! Somehow I did not find the link to reddit article with maths though (listings below did not include it??!).. thanks again!
Sorry, it's added now. But also here
www.reddit.com/r/bookbinding/comments/i5us7i/swell_and_rounding_another_boring_post_on/
@@DASBookbinding thank you so much! ~;0) I am not a maths geek but I love to try to understand it! ha!
Thank you for this video (and all of your videos!!!) I got to show an Amish man how to make a book! (not that I'm a pro but I really cant show him your videos LOL)
Very Amish. Can't drive a truck, so pay someone to drive a truck for you. Love it! DAS
@@DASBookbinding LOL Yes! Oh the irony
Excelente, gracias por los subtítulos en español, Happy New Year.
Thank you for that link to James Brockman’s video. It’s a rather intriguing idea. I wonder whether it might be of particular use for binding sheet music, where the book lying flat without being held open would be especially handy.
Has anyone else posted videos of attempting the technique, do you know?
No, It's not taken off in the bookbinding community. Maybe here's your chance?
The amount of rounding is not so important when you are binding blank jotters. More care is needed when rebinding an old book, or even a valuable modern edition. Before Cobden S. in the early 1800's, as well as often in the 1700's and even the 1600's backs were made quite flat as the text was printed closely often in two or three columns. This often left little by way of gutters and the book had to open well flat to make it readable. Over rounding, even the trad, one third circle will many times remove what gutters there were and will make the book difficult or impossible to read. I've seen this even from binders of vast experience. Good video, Matey, very useful for those learning about the beautiful craft.
Hi Das! What is the angle of the backing boards? My brother's wanting to make me some and I can't seem to find that dimension online.
I would like to bind loose sheets/papers and round the back of it! Is there any proper technique to do that? Please suggest some videos.
Before I forget, this video on rounding and backing is brilliant and educative. Thanks
I don't really like this technique. Not sure if there any videos on the web for it. But you can get the block into a rounded shape using something like this
schmedt.com/tools-devices/wooden-tools/rounding-block/
Any rounded surface will do - some PVC pipe.
Put it into a press in the rounded shape and then Lumbeck (double-fan) as usual.
Hope this helps.
What are you doing at 2:40-2:50? Given the thin strips of paper dropping down, it seems like you're using some kind of hand plane instead of a guillotine to trim the fore edge. Is that right?
It's called a plough. I'm fairly sure I have a video on it and use it in many others.
I'm wondering if it would be possible to do the rounding without a backing hammer but instead with a clean regular hammer if you go slow an carefull enough?
Sure can!
Backing a Book with a Claw Hammer
th-cam.com/video/skKSDiNPj6c/w-d-xo.html
DAS
Sir what is the covering material name you used in Double fan book binding video...and exact colour name of the material .where do we get it
Hi Darryn. I just used my new brass frottoir for backing for the first time. It was truly a revelation. I found that it was so much easier than hammering, especially with raised cords. More importantly, my results we so much better than I had ever achieved with a hammer. More consistent and even, forming the perfect "mushroom" shape. I think that this was the result of having more control with the frottoir than I have ever been able to develop with the hammer. Have you used one? If so, what are your thoughts on any dis/advantages of using a frottoir vs. a hammer for backing?
I bet it is. A friend and I have been talking about going halves in one of Jeff's hybrid ones. Maybe if the money is flowing like water later in the year:) It's not Jeff's prices, it's the cost of postage to Australia!
I have a question which may sound daft but hopefully many will answer!
I am quite inspired to take up this as a hobby, but once you have made a book full of blank paper, what do you do next? I'm not into journaling or scapbooking or anything so there must be other things people make with their bookbinding skills ? or is it about making books with blank paper and selling them?
Thanks for any input!
It's such a good question I haven't had the time to answer it. There are nice formatted copies of books out of copyright. I like binding up bookbinding journals that I've printed out. The Guild of Book Workers Journal is available in pdf and I've been meaning to bind these up. You can also completely rebind new and old books. Pulling down new books can be tricky because of the modern adhesives. And I'm very careful about what old books I pull down as I don't like destroying other peoples bindings. Good examples of this is the group known as Tomorrows Past.
Do you have a link where I can get the boards that are in the clamps?
man i'm so glad I found this channel, such a wealth of practical info on the subject, it's really helping me learn this huge topic
I've seen a spine rounding tool, a thing with a groove. Are they useful? Have you ever use then?
I think what you describe is what is used for rounding a text of single sheets of paper before double-fan binding. Not useful for the process shown in this video.
Can you round the spine of a book that has loose leaves that have been glued? I only need to round it a little bit to avoid the spines going inwards on my paperbacks.
If you want a rounded single sheet book it's best to put the round in during the spine glueing process. People will use a tube to rest the book in to put the round in the sheets and then clamp it and glue the spine. The next best thing is to round the book while the glue is still not fully set and more flexible. Some small commercial binderies might even have a heated plate they put the spine on to soften the glue. But once the book has been bound trying to round a double-fan binding or commercial Perfect binding is likely to end in a ruined book. Hope this helps.
What kind of chip board is best for binding of 150 sheets of 120 gsm paper..if you could help will be happy about
I would never use chip board for bookbinding - just not a binding material. Much too heavy and I'm not sure about the glue they use in it. I'd recommend a binders board between 1.5 and 2.5mm thick. Without more details, I'd say 0.08in Davey board would be the go.
www.talasonline.com/Davey-Binders-Board
Have you ever made a long-stitch book? Or have I just missed it? Thanks for the fantastic videos!
My current project is a medieval style long link stitch binding. Use modern materials to make a modern long stitch binding. DAS
I have heard that for very thin text blocks (say 10mm) that would be difficult to back, there is a solution where rounding only is done and a string or cord about the width of the greyboard is glued to the text block to create false backing. It is possible for you to demonstrate this method in a video?
Hi Ian, yes this was a technique developed by Thomas Harrison I believe. June showed me this years ago. She gave a demonstration at a QBG meeting a few years ago too. I might put it on the list. It's hard to hide the ends of the cord. DAS
Thank you for a nice video. Is there a good reason for not rounding the back before puting on any glue at all?
You can't control the rounding until the spine is glued. Also can't trim the fore-edge. Actually, you can, there just won't be much control and it will likely be all out of shape. The best way to check this is to try both ways and see. Good luck! DAS
@Das Bookbinding Have you experimented at all with James Brockman's concave spine design? I found the video you linked to be fascinating. It makes me think that all modern books should go that route.
No:) Glad you liked it! DAS
Where did you get your large press and plough?
It was made by Frank Wiesner. He's no longer around. But he made a lot of presses and they come up for sale occasionally. His presses are all around the world.
Wow! what's the name of that big wooden machine please?
A laying or lying press. This one is on a tub.
Hello, would you sew on the head and tail bands before or after rounding and backing?
Headbands have to be done after rounding and backing. DAS
@@DASBookbinding Thankyou
I'm having a hard time doing rounded corners and smooth edges. Is it possible to do it mannually and get nice results? tks.
For trimming edges I have some videos on this. Check out the one called something like "Trimming without..." It's basically an improvised plough. Corners is another story. I have a big machine for rounding corners. I've heard the Lasco corner rounder works well but can only do about 1/2inch at a time.
@@DASBookbinding Thank you for answering so quickly. Will see the Trimming Without video.
have you ever made a heart shaped book?
no.
Where do we get good quality chip boards
I don't consider chip board a binding material, thus don't use it. Also not sure there is such a thing as "quality" chip board. Bookbinders use "binder's board" or mill board. A very good economical board is Davey Board (a brand of binder's board), easily available from Talas if you are in the US.
www.talasonline.com/paper-and-board/bookbinding
Ahh... Just became aware that in the craft bookbinding parts of the internet binder's board is sometimes called "chip board". It's not.
@@DASBookbinding thank you sir
rounding and backing are essential for books, unfortunately, modern day cheaply made books are not bound in this way.
Essential for a well made post medieval book:) Medieval books weren't backed and late-medieval were self rounding, and functioned wonderfully. Unfortunately no one has trained a machine in how to use a backing hammer!