Thank you fellow Warhammer fans for watching this video. Honestly it was a blast getting all the clips together and sitting down with Toby to break them down. It was a nice excuse to go back to some of those games, as well as giving me a reason to brush up on some of my lore and share that with Toby for a bit of Grimdark context. As GameSpot's Warhammer nerd, I'm keen to do more like this, so please do leave your suggestions for factions, games, armour, details etc down below, or if you have any requests for episodes outside of Warhammer Age of Sigmar, 40k or Fantasy! Emperor be with you!
I'd actually love to see more Warhammer Armor breakdowns for the Astra Militarum, Adepta Sororitas, and Adeptus Astartes. A first-glance was done in this without much actual context, so it would be awesome to a breakdown with context given. For example, the role of the Astra Militarum, hence the cheap mass-produced appearance. The Adepa Sororitas and their links to the Inquisition, hence the heraldry and rosary. When the Rogue Trader portion was shown and the talks about female knights, had me questioning if the outfit was appropriate as a Knight, or as a Plague Doctor/Inquisitor. That sort of thing.
Please talk to him about imperial knights, after hearing his comments on grey knights and the heraldry makes me think he'd love massive robot chivalry housed
I mean, even if chainsaw swords are impractical for actual combat I am sure Romans would love it in the Gladitorial Arena. They had the guy with a trident and a web, a chainsaw wouldn't be too weird (if quite a bit more lethal).
The fact that he said: "they're sorta celebrating degradation." As opposed to they look like they are all about sickness. Was insane on how spot on it was.
I do like the empire in the warhammer fantasy universe because it actually is Renaisance as that is very underrepresented. Usually in fantasy it's either no gunpowder or all gunpowder. Armies that are mostly composed of gunners didn't really appear until around the beginning of the 18th century and gunpowder first became commonplace at around the late 15th century. Meaning you have a transition period of more than 200 years between the adoption of guns to them displacing all other weapons. Even many historical books talk about guns as if they were a revolution that happened very quickly but that's not the case. The transition of mostly melee weapons to mostly guns was a very gradual thing. In many ways melee soldiers weren't completely phased out until WW1.
The thing is that that's how most of the warhamer fiction approaches itself as well, no lampshading, no ironic quips. Once you start reading it looks you dead in the eyes and answers: "Yes. Space-knights" .
I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, I like how he speaks about armor as art piece, on the other, I miss almost any comment on functions and practicality...
@@anthonyjackob7192 well, once you get into Warhammer territory that's as much as you can do, being constructive. I think he mentioned just enough stuff about practicality too, but idk if he can say more than: "Wrong".
I love how he just instantly "gets" the plague marines at a glance. It shows how good he is as a scholar, but also how good the art team at GW is at expressing who the plague marines are.
It's very natural to see things decay around us, we're used to it. So I think it explains why he got the reference there without knowing about Nurgle and what he and his supporters and armies look like. It's similar I think we the Chaos troops, red (evil) armors in combination with red eyes and spikes is usually enough at that point to think "ah so that's a 'bad guy'". I found it interesting, however, that he specifically said that the plague marine seemed to him that they celebrate decay, rather than say something like "are those marines sick or something?". To him it already looked like it was all done on purpose rather than as a consequence to exposure to something that would have made them sick (well I guess there's a bit of that too, basically being 'exposed' to Nurgle makes you sick, but it's all on purpose). Anyways yeah, it's a sign indeed that the Plague Marines are easily identifiable and it's simply because of great armor + character designs.
and then he goes about chaos marines should have some self respect for themselves for not looking silly well, chaos guys are by definition batshit crazy...
@@kaltaron1284 Probably associate it with trumpets and how ancient armies used loud instruments to both boost morale and psychologically attack their opponents
As much as I like listening to 40k lore experts, it's really great to hear from someone who isn't completely invested in Warhammer and has the real world historical and cultural knowledge to point out and contextualize the lore's influences and meaning. Fictional universes are crafted by real world folks, so having these folks' thought process and influences explained through Capwell's analysis is a real treat.
Especially Warhammer 40,000 is a very deliberately thought out satirical universe. They've taken upsetting historical concepts with the intention of making the least hospitable and most awful situation you could imagine by pulling the worst things out of war history. The thing people always say is 40k doesn't have good guys, just opposing bad guys, but that isn't exactly true. What 40k is all about is that every warring faction is evil, but almost every faction has regular people who are just trying to survive. Those regular peoples aren't necessarily good, but they're not always bad either... but the leaders and higher-ups are always at least bad, and often directly evil. So 40k has always had a huge amount of historical reference, to make those connections artistically and lore-wise
I feel like what people really need is to hear someone explain Land Warrior/Future Warrior concept to them so that they would finally understand how Smartgun from Aliens works, how Astartes can hipfire bolter that lacks visible sights on top while looking in different direction, why Halo assault rifle that had sight arrangement and grenade launcher removed is such a travesty and why preception is a broken stat😅
I think it would also be interesting if there was someone in the video explaining the in lore context for this stuff not only to the historian but also to viewers who may not be familiar with the universe
Man when he was explaining knight culture and how the armor sort of elevated them and how knights were seen as chosen by god to rule is also a spot on description on how space marines are seen (minus the marines being seen as angels)
So cool, i thought he knew the lore at first, but this guy just gets it immediately. He is probably burried in the lore right now😂. You know how 40K fans are: passionate, once we start going, we can talk for hours. What would you think his favorite chapter is? I think dark angels.
@@bobloerakker7010 So coming back to this almost a year later, the dude did an interview for the second game and has apparently now read a bunch of the books and is a Magnus apologist lol
@@jackhazardous4008 and also as another comment pointed out their armor is POWERED so the pauldrons can infact be a bit more independent of the arm with whatever mechanism sits underneath two benefits which cosplayers dont tend to have
There is this engineer (or something high level like that) who made an amazing primaris cosplay armor with ballbearings in the shoulders, it had great mobility.
@@bobloerakker7010 Until he tries to lift his arms above his shoulders from the sides without crushing his head. Mobility is as much about range of motion as it is ease of motion.
It speaks to the visual messaging throughout their whole design. The plague bit is pretty easy to grasp, but the helmet spikes and more subdued armour style referencing German trench fighters is a more subtle historical reference that still fits in perfectly, and lets people with some knowledge of armour get an idea of their role.
I like how he described the LOYALIST marines before knowing their purpose. The historical notion that the aristocracy was divinely appointed, they were above ordinary humans. It's literally what the Emperor intended for his Space Marines
Fun fact: when Relic Entertainment first began developing Dawn of War and had to animate Space Marines in combat, they sat down and had a very serious discussion on how the pauldrons work and move. The epiphany was that the armour is POWERED, so the pauldron doesn't have to follow the arm at a 1:1 ratio and can be more independent to maintain protection of that joint. From a rigging standpoint it more closely follows the wearer's collarbone. Everyone has basically been cribbing their notes ever since.
The concept of the into the nervous system integrated pauldrons which automatically adjust their positions to allow movement was first mentioned in lore in a tidbit in the 2nd Edition Rulebook (´93) and with more detail explained in Ian Watsons novel Space Marine also from 1993. As much as i love Relic (not for DoW 3), but that idea was not really on them, just the animations.
I would imagine that the pauldron can move and lift out nof the way when a marine raises his arms. They just need to be there to take Incoming fire. They don't have to sit at the same place.
@@kriss3d Alternately the heavier armour suits might simply prohibit this movement. It might be deemed simply unnecessary for a soldier who carries heavy weapons into combat: it's enough to point the gun towards the enemy.
@@perkl1234terminators sure, but many marines fight in melee. Many are skilled duelists. This would be difficult with pauldrons that constantly get in the way
Agreed, it is sad they didn't have him watch the Grey Knight being "assembled" with all the serfs. I cannot speak factually but I could imagine knights of old having servants help them dress with their plates and straps especially high ranking ones. Would love to hear his thoughts on that.
@@fish5645 You are correct - medieval plate armour is much more quickly and easily put on with help, typically by a retainer or a squire (knight in training). Knight errant has good video on how long it takes, and discusses the role of help: th-cam.com/video/k24y_ZmxRHg/w-d-xo.html
I love how he took one look at the Plague Marines, and was able to accurately figure out who they were, and what they specialized in - and all due to the spike on the top of their head and a couple other minor visual cues. That tells you just how good a job they did with the designs.
Yeah... and his comment about American Football players was spot on - that armour protects far less than you'd think... but everyone seems to think that they're invincible with it on... sprains and pulled muscles are pretty common, as are concussive injuries. I don't want to imagine playing with spiked armour or being hit by something the size of an orc...
13:07 About the spikes. I watched a video about the filming Lord of The Rings. The lady talking was from makeup, discussing the problems they had with the spikey orc armour. Invariably whenever they filmed a charge by the orcs or even just orcs running someone would fall over. Then they would get the cries of "Help, my spikes have dug in I can't get up!"
10:56 "Putting the big winged skulls on their breastplates ...and the gold decoration, it doesn't make them safer." It absolutely does. The emperor protects.
if there is only one thing i can bring to war for protection, it will be the two-headed eagle sigil. i may die but i die for the Imperium of Man. The emperor protects!
"The modern mind has a problem with the idea that something can be a utilitarian object, and a work of art at the same time." For a whole bunch of reasons, this is what gets my like.
The curse of a time in which we have so many tools which are produced to be disposable. It is rare or a niche that we even expect a tool to survive more than some years.
This is why in some ways Warhammers depiction of the future is quite accurate, aesthetically at least. The idea that utilitarian objects cant and shouldn't be art is a very unique 20-21st century thing. There is little historical precedent for it, and if we where gonna pick a random period of time far in the future with a completely different culture it's very unlikely that it would share such a rare historical practice.
@@impguardwarhamer You can't predict the future just by looking at data from the past. Otherwise, we would have to say that because mass scale urbanization is a uniquely 20-21st century thing, it's very unlikely that humans in the future would still congregate in cities.
Fighter planes are beautiful in my mind because of their singleminded purposefulness. Like a shark is beautiful even though evolution never cared for them to be such.
As for the Astartes in the space marine 2 trailer, regular guardsmen rarely if ever see a space marine. You could think of them as angels. Just imagine if during the christian crusades the literal heavens opened up and angels descended, fighting along side the crusaders. *That* is the kind of impact the Astartes have on the common guardsman of the Imperium
@@1IGG there also angels that you never realistically want to meet either. It's like if the SAS got called into your neighbourhood, if their here things have gone very very wrong!
@@Travelling_Heart15 People forget that angels are just horrible monsters, and not the pretty boys and babies with wings. Anyone would go insane if a flaming wheel with eyes would show up.
@nuttbrain - Bretonnians are highly chivalric/honour obsessed beyond the point of reason, so the reason they don’t fly around dropping bombs is because that would be dishonourable. They also have magical protection that they lose when they act dishonourably, so they have incentive to get stuck in. Gotta remember that the Warhammer universes are deliberate absurdities. 😉
@@lordofuzkulak8308 You make a great point there! Next time I may show him some of that bombing air power for comparison... Looking at you, Lizardmen...
@@lordofuzkulak8308 They also don't find honourable to use gunpowder, that's why they only have bows and trebuchets while their neighbours and allies in the Empire have guns and cannons XD
The giant pauldrons on space marines were done originally to give miniature painters something to add heraldry to easily, but GW did eventually try to explain why they exist. Basically (you can sort of see it in the death guard clip) from a basic firing position when behind a barricade or trench you would only be showing your upper torso, and that large pauldron serves as a sort of ballistic shield to deflect gun fire away from the face and torso. And of course since marine armor is powered and connected to their nervous system GW can sort of get away with explaining that there are servos in that shoulder joint to lift the pauldron when a space marine raises their arm. Still a bit silly though.
In the Astartes animation, there is a part, I think when the Astartes is trying to stab the psyker, you can see a small plate of armour from under the pauldron when it rises, the plate protects the now exposed part of the shoulder A tiny detail that probably wouldn't be in ANYTHING to date Yet he included it
@@ragnarian I believe they are called auto-reactive plates on the shoulders because they actually move with the wearer, it's one of the reasons the armor needs power to function. So while an unpowered pauldron like that would severely limit mobility, one that can sense and move with the wearer would not.
@@PRC533 the black carapace would certainly make it more natural and functional than normal power armour like the sisters of battle, who have more proportional shoulders
I remember 1 story where an iron warrior was captured by orks and they gutted his armor. He escapes and retrieves his armor and has to wear it unpowered. The book emphasises how difficult it is to move with pure muscle.
For the camera operator for the Total War footage, there's a setting to turn off the units fading out when you get close, pressing K removes the UI and pressing N zooms the camera in closer and can give a better view of units.
Yeah. GR is a joke. Based on el Cid, I believe. Nowadays(in 2500s IC), I believe they carry the remains of Grail Knights. Not a lot of those around. Trust me.
Well Historically People really did carry relics into battle, maybe not a Real Human Body but Relics like the True Cross was Brought into Battle, There is also the Most likely basis if the Relique which is the Legend that the Legendary Knight El Cid's Body was Strapped on a Horse and sent to battle, There is Also Catholic Saintly Culture as in the Body of a Saint and Body Parts of a Saint are Sacred and thus have Powerful and Religiously Significant effects.
very impressed with how well Warhammer did, him being able to spot the Plague Marines character and that it reads perfectly, very cool big fan of both Toby and Warhammer, awesome seeing him take a look at their work!
23:20 If I recall correctly, the Sisters of Battle were established specifically to circumvent a by-law that forbade the Ecclesiarchy of Terra from having _men_ -at-arms.
Sure, but they already existed as the Brides of the Emperor under Goge Vandire, and even before that, the Daughters of Emperor. So while Sebastian Thor banned "Men under arms" for the Eccelisiarchy, they could have still gotta away with it using just militias like they are already doing now (Munistorum's Crusaders come to mind). The sororitas were merely used to circumvant the problem of not having a formal military organisation, though the Ecclesiarchy can easily raise Fratis Militant as needed for its own needs (showing of course, how powerless any decree is in the wider imperium when enforcement is difficult, and loopholes are eagerly exploited).
Mail is ridiculously easy to trim down, though. Using nothing more than a rock, a log, and an arrowhead, it would take maybe half an hour to cut that loincloth to size, and even if the rat didn't care about the extra weight, it _would_ care about being able to use the removed patch of mail to armor an area that would otherwise be left exposed.
@@irrelevantfish1978 But that means work... and work is bad. And for slaves. but no skaven will let his slaves touch or change his armour cause it might give them ideas....
Also the fact that skavens love to boast and make themselves look like they have resources to waste, even when it's not practical, would be a way of showing off
Polite, respectful, and took the context and the fantasy nature fully into account when talking about the subject. It's always nice to see a professional at work!
Love his positivity and understanding that it's artistic representations of things. Expert reactions that only care about realism bore me no end, but him being an art historian, he can actually engage with the goal of these creations.
Tobias Capwell is always a joy to listen to. Even if a piece of armour doesn't meet his muster, he always has an interesting historic anecdote to provide or he makes an attempt to put the piece in context.
Ha ha! That would explain Jonathan's interest in firearms, because Tobias has some rather specialized and dangerous skills for someone posing as a simple curator and historian.
Toby Capwell also worked or works at The Royal Armouries, so you aren't far from the truth. 😅 Edit: Did a little research and Capwell was one of the founding members of the Royal Armouries' jousting team.
Tobias' little chuckle of excitement whenever he sees something cool just serves to emphasise how passionate he is about this stuff. Also really nice to hear an expert talking about things from a historical standpoint, but also appreciating that it's a fantasy setting. So many pedantic historical types love to put this stuff down because it's not accurate without so much as a thought for the fact that it's not meant to be. Lovely stuff!
And the guys who sculpted almost all of the Empire units the Perry twins have run their own historical miniature company for decade and are big re-enactors too.
I thought it was interesting when Capwell started talking about armor as both a practical object and as a work of art, because the franchise has its origins as a miniatures game. Being a personal expression is the whole point!
I wish they'd showed him the Primaris Astartes armouring up video, that showed how the big shoulder plates is basically hung/mounted on the actual pauldron underneath, and not directly lashed to the arm as most people assume when they first see them.
I always appreciate how intense and serious he is about his scholarship. Its a manner and an attitude I'd associate more with a corporate or tech industry person, somehow its encouraging to see someone in an intellectual, non-commercial pursuit being so obviously dedicated and unembarrassed to wear their passion on their sleeve.
As far as I know, there is an in-universe reason for the Sororitas' armour to be obviously female-shaped: they were the Eclesiarchy's army, and since an episode when the head of the religion also took over as the head of State(in behalf of the Emperor), they were banned from having any armed MEN under their command. But, by having armed WOMEN, they abode by the letter of the law. For that to be obvious, regardless of the place of the Galaxy, their armour emphasizes their feminity, so that Imperial Guardsmen, Space Marines, Inquisitors, Skitarii, Titans, Knights, and any other imperial armed forces had no doubts of their allegiance, and would not confuse them with agents of Chaos or other enemies...
There's also a case to be made that armor made for males in the medieval period had wasp-waists, and some wore codpieces. The first being fashionable at the time for men, the second being an obvious attempt to exaggerate the male form. It stands to reason that perhaps armor made for women might exaggerate the feminine form, too.
@Einhart was just about to point that out. If fighting women were more common then there would certainly be precedent of for more feminine armor and the personalization and customization of said armor
There's also the matter of them being descended from Vandire's personal guard / "companions". It's very likely Sororitas' armor has been derived from their own, which for a primarily ceremonial guard would have different design priorities than for a frontline soldier. Keeping it unchanged regardless would be a very Imperium thing to do.
@@Einhart My only issue with that is armor already exaggerates the chest of the wearer and putting a cleavage line in would necessarily weaken a breastplate in the worst possible spot (right above the heart). Also, in my real world experience, women who fight (Army, MMA, Boxing) tend to want to appear as masculine and intimidating as possible when in actual combat, and specifically reduce their feminine attributes.
@@Falcun21 If Henry gets his way the 40K show will be good as due to being a huge fan of the Warhammer franchise in it's entirety Henry Cavill knows what fans want to see in it, but since he's the lead producer along with playing the main protagonist Henry knows that due to possible budget restraints not everything that fans want to see in it will be possible to add to the show but he'll try to put as much stuff fans want to see in it due to the fact that like he said this is a dream project for him and he wants it to be not only a show for the fans of Warhammer 40K but also a good sci-fi/action show that fans in general can watch and enjoy.
Please give Warhammer games another run, and provide Tobias with images of Asur, Dawi, Kislevite and Cathayan soldiers, as well as most of the factions from 40k. I bet he still has a lot to say about these universes.
While I'm sure most people watching this video would understand what the Asur and Dawi are, to translate into more generic fantasy terms: Asur = Elves (specifically High Elves); Dawi = Dwarfs (they insist it's not spelled with a 'v'); Kislev = Slavic/Russian inspired culture; Cathay = Chinese inspired culture.
@@zaganim3813 Jonathan is the Gun and Artillery guy at the Tower Armouries in Leeds... Tobias is the Arms and Armour guy at the Wallace Collection in London...
In Final Fantasy XIV, the armor worn by the Ishgardian Dragoons is covered in spikes because they're specialists in fighting dragons, and the spikes makes them less appealing targets for biting or eating.
@@aircraftcarrierwo-class Fantasy lore sure, but this guy is talking about (real world) historical lore. The guy even shared a story pointing out the difference of the two.
Fair point. Spikes seem to make some sense (at least in a fantasy) if the armor is worn by someone operating totally alone, likely to be surrounded by large numbers of enemies or a single large constricting/swallowing enemy. If they're in a tight formation formation... well then it's just a "rule of awesome" in effect I suppose. I do kind of like the idea of chaos warriors constantly whining at each other like old biddies: "Olaf the Unclean, if your shoulder spike pokes me one more time I swear by Khorne I'm going to..." "Oh, do shut up Hurgar the Cruel, your horned helmet has been scraping my armor for the last three campaigns!"
I remember one quote from one of the 40k rules codices. I'm paraphrasing here: "Camouflage is something when you do not want to be seen. It's something for the ordinary soldier. I colour myself in bright armor. I want the enemy to know I'm here. I want them to know fear, to know that I will end them."
theres actually quite a few times something like that is said in 40k. Carab Culln says "Camouflage is the colour of fear.”, and Dorn says "Camouflage is the color of cowards"
He is such a treasure for us all. Most people here aren't aware how much of a reference he is in his field. The 3 books, monuments to his knowledge that he wrote, are wonders to read.
When he was reacting to the Space Marine 2 trailer they cut from a close-up of the IG character to him and I swear he looks just like that guardsman. I'll definitely name one of my guard models "Captain Tobias Capwell", that's my new fave head canon!
1:57 idk whats that is, some kind of corpse? Oh yes, its even worse since its a corpse of a knight that some peasants literally stole from a grave, put on a wooden horse and parade around on the battlefield
Yep, the Grail Reliquae. Might have residual Blessings of the Lady that the knight had in life. More likely the peasants just believe that to be the case.
I'm actually somewhat surprised he didn't pick up on that (or maybe they just cut it out) since skulls or bones of saints as relics were absolutely a thing, historically. People would travel to churches specifically to touch some relic that was said to have beneficial powers and they might even get paraded around on special occasions. Not a full corpse like that and not in battle, but you know, the idea was there. Different churches would even sometimes be in competition for who had the best relics to attract the most visitors. Doesn't directly pertain to armour, but still an interesting topic relating to what was shown.
It seems like Toby or someone at GS really took the feedback on his last video to heart. It was really cool seeing him balance the historicity while still playing in the space of the fiction instead of just poo pooing the unrealistic elements like before. Loved this vid, can’t wait to see more of him
This is by far the best {expert} reacts to {concept} i have seen. Focused on the aspects that were in the range of his expertise. With really great commentary and teachable moments. And let the fantasy be fantasy. Amazing.
So the thing about Chaos Warriors, is once they put the armor on, it never comes off, because it permanently fuses to their flesh. In older lore, i forget what edition of the tabletop, the armor would appear outside the camp of a chosen elite, who, taking it as the favor of their dark gods, would put it on a become a semi-immortal, never resting, warrior of chaos.
I remember a short story that was very similar, a guy and his servant who found a suit of armour and wore it. Eventually turned into a daemon, the armour being like a chrysalis.
@@MaFo82 There's a few things going on there that you're cutting out or mixing up. The Thousand Sons had an issue where their geneseed is hilariously unstable and they have a tendancy to go all chaos spawn. When they fled into the eye of terror, this began to happen at a rate that would cause the legion to self-destruct so Ahriman, one of their most powerful sorcerers, attempted to cure the Thousand Sons of this. When he cast the ritual, so called, the Rubric of Ahriman, it worked, and the legion was no longer plagued by rampant mutation - but all among the legion who were not psychic had their bodies destroyed and their souls bound to their armor, which is why such members of the Thousand Sons legion are called "Rubric" marines - marines whose state of existence as effectively automata were brought about by the Rubric of Ahriman. So they were affected by Tzeentchian mutation, but the thing that destroyed the physical forms of many of them and sealed their armor was an action of the Thousand Sons themselves.
That is a misconcepption or overgeneralization. It is only true in very specific instances. Khorne Berzerkers (Fantasy and 40k), Plague Marines/Knights and Thousand Sons (due to Ahriman´s Spell). The Thousand Sons don´t really follow what you mean too, as there is no body left to fuse with. Of course there are individual examples of chosen ones who fuse with armour.
Interesting to hear how spot-on the Empire is to their intended era. So well done that he was able to recognize them being a renaissance germanic faction.
Space Marine armor is more robotic than standard armor. The pauldrons are a floating system on gyros. So as the wearer moves his arms, the system reacts and moves with it. They can actually pop out a bit to allow greater movement.
This seems pretty accurate. Even when looking at the models, the giant shoulder plate does NOT rest on the shoulder, it rests on a smaller shoulder plate undernearth, which raises it up. It moves as an extension of the arm, not as resting on the shoulder, which is the misconception.
If you have played the multiplayer for Space Marine, you would also know that those pauldrons absolutely serve a purpose: getting head shots was very difficult precisely because the shoulder pauldrons were so big!
The knightly heraldry of the Astartes, the Renaissance pike-and-shot tactics the Empire espouses, various minor references like helmet top spikes and such, various iconography.. these are things I heard about over the decades, but I had no prior familiarity with the historical inspiration. It's actually awesome to see that all the historical references that 80s/90s era GW made in their lore and visual designs are actually INSTANTLY recognizable by a real expert!
it's funny, as a kid whenever I saw Bloodbowl artwork of two spikey/bladed teams about to crash into each other I would always think "everyone in this picture is about to be maimed for life"
I love that he saw the historical context of both the bretonnians and the Empire from 14th century France and 16th century Germany/HRE. I would love to see him comment on the more fantast races, such as Dwarfs and Elves, see what he makes of these races.
This was really good. He didn’t just tear them a new one, he pointed out where they were inaccurate, and also both pointed out where they actually got things right and pointed out how the designers managed to keep the cultural and psychological aspects of medieval armor design.
Weirdly, in an interview... the guy who designed the first Space Marines said that they were inspired by photos of WW2 American infantry, going ashore in Normandy, the backpacks being a sci-fi take on the kit bags some of them carried. Referring to them as Knights is also completely valid, of course - they've evolved A LOT since the 80's.
This was good, i loved seeing Toby lean into the analysis in-universe and from a storytelling point of view through the historical lens of armor use. I dont know if he's just getting more comfortable or if he just really vibes with Warhammer but I hope we see more of this in the future.
Great guy, always enjoy his reactions. He actually takes the examples seriously, with both understanding of his field of expertise, and gaming design. Was delighted to hear him praise Warhammer designs of armor and their understanding of it - thats something I left from the 1st time I saw a space marine, and feel to this day, but never had the words to describe as good as he did. Thank you!
I love this guy, could listen to him for hours on end and never get bored. His knowledge is unrivaled, but the main thing is he adapts when he knows he's talking about fantasy, not only stating what is good/bad but where they've taken it from and how it would be applied in a fantasy setting - 12/10, MORE PLEASE :))
When he was talking about the Space Marine shoulder armor interfering with movement it was a nice touch showing it clipping through the character model to allow certain animations. It's like the in-game model of Geralt's arm unnaturally stretching to allow him to sheathe his swords on his back.
For someone who knows nothing about Warhammer 40k his assessment of the Space Marines is spot on. They are just as much of a symbol as they are warriors.
the note about pilots are the knights of this modern warfare, is so true, especially in WW1, and how they respect each. Even today, to fire on an ejected pilot, is frowned upon, the pilot as the modern Knights riding thier fighter "war steeds" is an epic image. And I also appreciate the commentary regarding the armor 😊
I really enjoy seeing one of these expert reacting videos where instead of just pointing out everything that's different or wrong the whole time he focuses on and spends a lot of time talking about what's right and why things might be done the way they are
This guy has such an excellent perspective to appreciate the artistic and storytelling design present in fiction - really being able to identify the abstracts of WHY specific non-historic things make sense to their universe, how using historical reference to separate groups blends that together in game design… Dude’s smart AF
I bet he'd like the Custodians, they are very individualist, they have their many names and honours inscribed on their armour, where Spaces Marines are taught to work as a team, the Custodians excel at individual combat.
What a great approach he has to this. He understands clearly the boundaries between historical and fantasy contexts and he goes into explaining the connections. Awesome video and great work!
The meta reason for the giant pauldrons was to make it easier to pose arms on the miniatures. The shoulder might look really jank, but then you cover it up with the pauldron and it looks fine.
Completely right about American Football. I remember my coach saying when I first started playing that the modern pads have actually made the game less safe and that when he played they had much less padding and consequently hit a lot less harder than the modern game. Its like punching someone without a glove, you can’t hit as hard because you’ll break your hand.
Armour from the Fire Emblem games may be fun because you have the range of armour from fantasy to useful in different styles for different unit types that vary in "fanciness" depending on the backstory of the character.
The answer would be that the armour is very bad with almost no understanding of how armour goes together in reality, and Toby would say that exact same thing.
Love Toby’s commentary for these. He gives everything a serious look and points out the technical details, but also remembers the context of fantasy and fun.
Right this was a great video and really interesting to hear from Tobias about his thoughts on the armor and heraldry! He made some really great points and it was fun to see him almost surprised at times by how close the designs are to their inspiration even while the designs remain, in some regards, very fanciful.
What a fantastic guest! He did an amazing job talking about the armour and weapons from both a visual and historic standpoint even though they are outlandishly fantastical. I really enjoyed this vid and would love to see Tobias Capwell talking about this topic again.
This was a very fun watch, I feel like Capwell understands Warhammer really well on an intuitive level just from how well he picked up not just the historical references, but also the creative license that was applied to them. For example, with the Sisters of Battle he immediately picked up that they were a religious order and the Joan of Arc links with the medieval France stuff.
Should be noted that the world of Warhammer Fantasy does have pretty similar if slightly exaggerated geology to our world and in fact the Empire is set up in the same location as Germany as well.
I've always like Tobias' takes on things. I've seen multiple videos with him on different channels and he genuinely seems like he'd be an amazing person to just hang out with and discuss things with...
here to pile on with the love for Tobias! I personally know next to nothing about Warhammer overall, but I think his stance is perfect for these types of videos. Giving allowances for game/visual design, along with the more fantastical side that comes with video games and media, but still pointing out nods to historical use. I'm sure there's a lot of historians who would just scoff at imagery like Warhammer's without a second thought, so its nice to see he's more interested in pointing out where things align, as versus just throwing the whole conversation out.
On the practicality of the Shoulder Plates. At 10:31 you can see that the Armor beneath the Shoulder is segmented and movable and the Plate is connected to one of the movable segments, so it is able to move above the Arm.
I enjoyed this video a lot, seen Toby pop up in a few other historical videos and I love seeing him embrace the silly and fantastical side of Warhammer whilst still explaining the functional sides Well done!
I'm willing to bet Warhammer Fantasy having such a great historical theme was, in part, thanks to the era the miniatures were made in and their neighbors. Most likely they were competing with equally (or even more) accurate model sets of knights and the like, and so the competition lead to excellence especially when you get to videogames.
I’m a really big fan of how much of the benefit of the doubt this guy gives to fantasy settings He’s not dismissive of the fantastic elements, but embraces them Mad respect, I hope he’s well
I really like how the expert not just shown great insight but also demonstrated that warhammer/40k have actually good designs for transporting what they trying to do.
Thank you fellow Warhammer fans for watching this video. Honestly it was a blast getting all the clips together and sitting down with Toby to break them down.
It was a nice excuse to go back to some of those games, as well as giving me a reason to brush up on some of my lore and share that with Toby for a bit of Grimdark context.
As GameSpot's Warhammer nerd, I'm keen to do more like this, so please do leave your suggestions for factions, games, armour, details etc down below, or if you have any requests for episodes outside of Warhammer Age of Sigmar, 40k or Fantasy!
Emperor be with you!
Any excuse to do more Warhammer stuff, Dave 👀
More of the non-human fantasy guys. I bet he'd have a lot to say about the differences between Tomb Kings and Vampire counts!
Do You happen to know what tshirt was he wearing ? I'm really curious as it looks cool
I'd actually love to see more Warhammer Armor breakdowns for the Astra Militarum, Adepta Sororitas, and Adeptus Astartes. A first-glance was done in this without much actual context, so it would be awesome to a breakdown with context given. For example, the role of the Astra Militarum, hence the cheap mass-produced appearance. The Adepa Sororitas and their links to the Inquisition, hence the heraldry and rosary.
When the Rogue Trader portion was shown and the talks about female knights, had me questioning if the outfit was appropriate as a Knight, or as a Plague Doctor/Inquisitor. That sort of thing.
Please talk to him about imperial knights, after hearing his comments on grey knights and the heraldry makes me think he'd love massive robot chivalry housed
"the Romans never had chainsaw swords but I bet they would have liked them" - now that's a good approach to history and fantasy combined
The Germanic tribes been real quiet once the Romans found the chain gladius
I mean, even if chainsaw swords are impractical for actual combat I am sure Romans would love it in the Gladitorial Arena.
They had the guy with a trident and a web, a chainsaw wouldn't be too weird (if quite a bit more lethal).
Julius Caesar would've loved the idea at least
TITUS PULLO, FETCH ME THE CHAIN PILUM
The romans never had chainswords... that we know of...
The fact that he said: "they're sorta celebrating degradation." As opposed to they look like they are all about sickness. Was insane on how spot on it was.
He might be assuming there’s a “normal” human inside. But yeah, I really like this guys take on a lot of stuff here.
@@Paloclesthey stopped being "normal" a long time ago.
I do like the empire in the warhammer fantasy universe because it actually is Renaisance as that is very underrepresented. Usually in fantasy it's either no gunpowder or all gunpowder. Armies that are mostly composed of gunners didn't really appear until around the beginning of the 18th century and gunpowder first became commonplace at around the late 15th century. Meaning you have a transition period of more than 200 years between the adoption of guns to them displacing all other weapons.
Even many historical books talk about guns as if they were a revolution that happened very quickly but that's not the case. The transition of mostly melee weapons to mostly guns was a very gradual thing. In many ways melee soldiers weren't completely phased out until WW1.
Mortarion's finest.
IMO, you can tell this guy like 40k before this
I love that Dr. Capwell isn't just going "wrong, wrong, wrong, kinda realistic, wrong" but actually takes it seriously.
A true scholar.
Yeah, takes true knowledge to put fantastical things into historical context, instead of just going "dat unrealistic"
The thing is that that's how most of the warhamer fiction approaches itself as well, no lampshading, no ironic quips. Once you start reading it looks you dead in the eyes and answers: "Yes. Space-knights" .
I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, I like how he speaks about armor as art piece, on the other, I miss almost any comment on functions and practicality...
He's Captain Context's friend.
@@anthonyjackob7192 well, once you get into Warhammer territory that's as much as you can do, being constructive.
I think he mentioned just enough stuff about practicality too, but idk if he can say more than: "Wrong".
I love how he just instantly "gets" the plague marines at a glance. It shows how good he is as a scholar, but also how good the art team at GW is at expressing who the plague marines are.
It's very natural to see things decay around us, we're used to it. So I think it explains why he got the reference there without knowing about Nurgle and what he and his supporters and armies look like. It's similar I think we the Chaos troops, red (evil) armors in combination with red eyes and spikes is usually enough at that point to think "ah so that's a 'bad guy'".
I found it interesting, however, that he specifically said that the plague marine seemed to him that they celebrate decay, rather than say something like "are those marines sick or something?". To him it already looked like it was all done on purpose rather than as a consequence to exposure to something that would have made them sick (well I guess there's a bit of that too, basically being 'exposed' to Nurgle makes you sick, but it's all on purpose).
Anyways yeah, it's a sign indeed that the Plague Marines are easily identifiable and it's simply because of great armor + character designs.
and then he goes about chaos marines should have some self respect for themselves for not looking silly
well, chaos guys are by definition batshit crazy...
it show also the designers knew what they were doing
@@mikez2779 Show him some old Noise Marines. Wonder what he'd say about them.
@@kaltaron1284
Probably associate it with trumpets and how ancient armies used loud instruments to both boost morale and psychologically attack their opponents
As much as I like listening to 40k lore experts, it's really great to hear from someone who isn't completely invested in Warhammer and has the real world historical and cultural knowledge to point out and contextualize the lore's influences and meaning. Fictional universes are crafted by real world folks, so having these folks' thought process and influences explained through Capwell's analysis is a real treat.
Agreed. I love me some lore and analysis, but seeing someone outside the community give input is awesome and very cool to see.
Especially Warhammer 40,000 is a very deliberately thought out satirical universe. They've taken upsetting historical concepts with the intention of making the least hospitable and most awful situation you could imagine by pulling the worst things out of war history.
The thing people always say is 40k doesn't have good guys, just opposing bad guys, but that isn't exactly true. What 40k is all about is that every warring faction is evil, but almost every faction has regular people who are just trying to survive. Those regular peoples aren't necessarily good, but they're not always bad either... but the leaders and higher-ups are always at least bad, and often directly evil.
So 40k has always had a huge amount of historical reference, to make those connections artistically and lore-wise
@@myfaceismyshield5963 Well said!
I feel like what people really need is to hear someone explain Land Warrior/Future Warrior concept to them so that they would finally understand how Smartgun from Aliens works, how Astartes can hipfire bolter that lacks visible sights on top while looking in different direction, why Halo assault rifle that had sight arrangement and grenade launcher removed is such a travesty and why preception is a broken stat😅
I think it would also be interesting if there was someone in the video explaining the in lore context for this stuff not only to the historian but also to viewers who may not be familiar with the universe
Man when he was explaining knight culture and how the armor sort of elevated them and how knights were seen as chosen by god to rule is also a spot on description on how space marines are seen (minus the marines being seen as angels)
“We are the angles of death” erm actually 👆🤓
"his angels"
@Greenfeld13 I meant as in he doesn't mention the angel part
So cool, i thought he knew the lore at first, but this guy just gets it immediately. He is probably burried in the lore right now😂. You know how 40K fans are: passionate, once we start going, we can talk for hours. What would you think his favorite chapter is? I think dark angels.
@@bobloerakker7010 So coming back to this almost a year later, the dude did an interview for the second game and has apparently now read a bunch of the books and is a Magnus apologist lol
"It's pretty cool, but I never want to go there." Something that literally every 40k fan agrees with.
100%
Unless you could guarantee me I'd be an Astartes
Unless your an ork player
Watcha talking about as a death korps soldier it is better to fight and die for the God Emperor!
The more you know about the Lore, the more you agree.
Tobias: "The mobility of the arms in space marine armor looks like it would be limiting."
Every WH40K power armor cosplayer: **nods emphatically**
Tbf space marines are like 3x the size of a normal person
@@jackhazardous4008 and also as another comment pointed out their armor is POWERED so the pauldrons can infact be a bit more independent of the arm with whatever mechanism sits underneath
two benefits which cosplayers dont tend to have
There is this engineer (or something high level like that) who made an amazing primaris cosplay armor with ballbearings in the shoulders, it had great mobility.
@@bobloerakker7010 Until he tries to lift his arms above his shoulders from the sides without crushing his head. Mobility is as much about range of motion as it is ease of motion.
@@swordmonkey6635 still it was impressive. If you think you could do better then go for it swordmonkey
I love how he described the plague marines before knowing their purpose. Like spot on! Lol
Experts are experts for a reason and they probably have a reasonably well developped deduction skill
It speaks to the visual messaging throughout their whole design. The plague bit is pretty easy to grasp, but the helmet spikes and more subdued armour style referencing German trench fighters is a more subtle historical reference that still fits in perfectly, and lets people with some knowledge of armour get an idea of their role.
Papa Nurgle reached out to him via the warp.
I like how he described the LOYALIST marines before knowing their purpose. The historical notion that the aristocracy was divinely appointed, they were above ordinary humans. It's literally what the Emperor intended for his Space Marines
Fun fact: when Relic Entertainment first began developing Dawn of War and had to animate Space Marines in combat, they sat down and had a very serious discussion on how the pauldrons work and move. The epiphany was that the armour is POWERED, so the pauldron doesn't have to follow the arm at a 1:1 ratio and can be more independent to maintain protection of that joint. From a rigging standpoint it more closely follows the wearer's collarbone. Everyone has basically been cribbing their notes ever since.
The concept of the into the nervous system integrated pauldrons which automatically adjust their positions to allow movement was first mentioned in lore in a tidbit in the 2nd Edition Rulebook (´93) and with more detail explained in Ian Watsons novel Space Marine also from 1993.
As much as i love Relic (not for DoW 3), but that idea was not really on them, just the animations.
I would imagine that the pauldron can move and lift out nof the way when a marine raises his arms. They just need to be there to take Incoming fire. They don't have to sit at the same place.
Why was that an epiphany? They should have known that from the start.
@@kriss3d Alternately the heavier armour suits might simply prohibit this movement. It might be deemed simply unnecessary for a soldier who carries heavy weapons into combat: it's enough to point the gun towards the enemy.
@@perkl1234terminators sure, but many marines fight in melee. Many are skilled duelists. This would be difficult with pauldrons that constantly get in the way
It would be awesome for Tobias to see the animation sequence of a Space Marine being armoured. The full ritual
Agreed, it is sad they didn't have him watch the Grey Knight being "assembled" with all the serfs. I cannot speak factually but I could imagine knights of old having servants help them dress with their plates and straps especially high ranking ones. Would love to hear his thoughts on that.
@@fish5645 You are correct - medieval plate armour is much more quickly and easily put on with help, typically by a retainer or a squire (knight in training). Knight errant has good video on how long it takes, and discusses the role of help: th-cam.com/video/k24y_ZmxRHg/w-d-xo.html
The Raptor armoring was better than the GW animation
Well ya'll best stay tuned then ;)
@@IrregularDave Hype!
I love how he took one look at the Plague Marines, and was able to accurately figure out who they were, and what they specialized in - and all due to the spike on the top of their head and a couple other minor visual cues. That tells you just how good a job they did with the designs.
I'm a loyalist, but I've always loved the Death Guard vibe.
So much fun to paint too
Your face when space marines answer your call for help but the space marines that arrive are all spiky 😂😂😂
@@TheGosgoshBut their armour is black and their spikes are boney and growing from their arms: 😌
23:38 "I think everybody would be horribly injured very quickly here" while talking about Blood Bowl had me cackling
That bowl do be bloody
Especially over images of a players molesting the players while they're on the ground XD
Then the end part kind perfectly describes the difference mentalities in play between a legal rugby tackle and an American football sack
Yeah... and his comment about American Football players was spot on - that armour protects far less than you'd think... but everyone seems to think that they're invincible with it on... sprains and pulled muscles are pretty common, as are concussive injuries. I don't want to imagine playing with spiked armour or being hit by something the size of an orc...
13:07
About the spikes.
I watched a video about the filming Lord of The Rings.
The lady talking was from makeup, discussing the problems they had with the spikey orc armour.
Invariably whenever they filmed a charge by the orcs or even just orcs running someone would fall over.
Then they would get the cries of "Help, my spikes have dug in I can't get up!"
10:56 "Putting the big winged skulls on their breastplates ...and the gold decoration, it doesn't make them safer."
It absolutely does. The emperor protects.
It took a lot for me to resist saying something like this but I can only be so nerdy about the details haha
Heresy.
if there is only one thing i can bring to war for protection, it will be the two-headed eagle sigil. i may die but i die for the Imperium of Man. The emperor protects!
@@ricex2 Even a man who has nothing can still offer his life.
@@p75369 nah too dangerous purge him
"The modern mind has a problem with the idea that something can be a utilitarian object, and a work of art at the same time."
For a whole bunch of reasons, this is what gets my like.
Ditto
The curse of a time in which we have so many tools which are produced to be disposable.
It is rare or a niche that we even expect a tool to survive more than some years.
This is why in some ways Warhammers depiction of the future is quite accurate, aesthetically at least.
The idea that utilitarian objects cant and shouldn't be art is a very unique 20-21st century thing. There is little historical precedent for it, and if we where gonna pick a random period of time far in the future with a completely different culture it's very unlikely that it would share such a rare historical practice.
@@impguardwarhamer You can't predict the future just by looking at data from the past. Otherwise, we would have to say that because mass scale urbanization is a uniquely 20-21st century thing, it's very unlikely that humans in the future would still congregate in cities.
Fighter planes are beautiful in my mind because of their singleminded purposefulness. Like a shark is beautiful even though evolution never cared for them to be such.
As for the Astartes in the space marine 2 trailer, regular guardsmen rarely if ever see a space marine. You could think of them as angels. Just imagine if during the christian crusades the literal heavens opened up and angels descended, fighting along side the crusaders. *That* is the kind of impact the Astartes have on the common guardsman of the Imperium
"The Emperor's Angels of Death"
@@1IGG there also angels that you never realistically want to meet either. It's like if the SAS got called into your neighbourhood, if their here things have gone very very wrong!
@@chrisreay7033 is there any angel people want to meet? Have you seen the biblical description of an angel?
"Thank you for saving us but... why are you guys here... oh no..."
@@Travelling_Heart15 People forget that angels are just horrible monsters, and not the pretty boys and babies with wings. Anyone would go insane if a flaming wheel with eyes would show up.
2:00 "Why are they on the ground?"
I ask the same thing every time I use flying units...
At least the Wood Elf Hawk Riders have the sense to fly around and pepper the enemy with arrows. They only charge when they run out of ammo.
@nuttbrain - Bretonnians are highly chivalric/honour obsessed beyond the point of reason, so the reason they don’t fly around dropping bombs is because that would be dishonourable. They also have magical protection that they lose when they act dishonourably, so they have incentive to get stuck in. Gotta remember that the Warhammer universes are deliberate absurdities. 😉
@@lordofuzkulak8308 You make a great point there! Next time I may show him some of that bombing air power for comparison...
Looking at you, Lizardmen...
@@chuckhoyle1211 Or when chasing down a routing unit.
@@lordofuzkulak8308 They also don't find honourable to use gunpowder, that's why they only have bows and trebuchets while their neighbours and allies in the Empire have guns and cannons XD
The giant pauldrons on space marines were done originally to give miniature painters something to add heraldry to easily, but GW did eventually try to explain why they exist. Basically (you can sort of see it in the death guard clip) from a basic firing position when behind a barricade or trench you would only be showing your upper torso, and that large pauldron serves as a sort of ballistic shield to deflect gun fire away from the face and torso. And of course since marine armor is powered and connected to their nervous system GW can sort of get away with explaining that there are servos in that shoulder joint to lift the pauldron when a space marine raises their arm. Still a bit silly though.
In the Astartes animation, there is a part, I think when the Astartes is trying to stab the psyker, you can see a small plate of armour from under the pauldron when it rises, the plate protects the now exposed part of the shoulder
A tiny detail that probably wouldn't be in ANYTHING to date
Yet he included it
@@ragnarian I believe they are called auto-reactive plates on the shoulders because they actually move with the wearer, it's one of the reasons the armor needs power to function. So while an unpowered pauldron like that would severely limit mobility, one that can sense and move with the wearer would not.
@@PRC533 the black carapace would certainly make it more natural and functional than normal power armour like the sisters of battle, who have more proportional shoulders
I remember 1 story where an iron warrior was captured by orks and they gutted his armor. He escapes and retrieves his armor and has to wear it unpowered. The book emphasises how difficult it is to move with pure muscle.
I suppose they could get rid of some of the back half of the pauldron then, or make it less round and more angled up and away facing forwards
For the camera operator for the Total War footage, there's a setting to turn off the units fading out when you get close, pressing K removes the UI and pressing N zooms the camera in closer and can give a better view of units.
OH MY GOD THANK YOU!
I obviously knew about the UI, but that's a great hint next time I'm getting shots
Were you expecting competence? lol
@@UnsoberIdiot I know that for Dave, I expect nothing but the utmost irregularity.
It's in the name, you see.
Can we all appreciate that he identified the basic purpose of a Grail Relique at one look? That was impressive!
That's what I thought, too. Credit to the artists, you know?
Yeah. GR is a joke. Based on el Cid, I believe. Nowadays(in 2500s IC), I believe they carry the remains of Grail Knights. Not a lot of those around. Trust me.
Well Historically People really did carry relics into battle, maybe not a Real Human Body but Relics like the True Cross was Brought into Battle,
There is also the Most likely basis if the Relique which is the Legend that the Legendary Knight El Cid's Body was Strapped on a Horse and sent to battle,
There is Also Catholic Saintly Culture as in the Body of a Saint and Body Parts of a Saint are Sacred and thus have Powerful and Religiously Significant effects.
very impressed with how well Warhammer did, him being able to spot the Plague Marines character and that it reads perfectly, very cool
big fan of both Toby and Warhammer, awesome seeing him take a look at their work!
❤
23:20 If I recall correctly, the Sisters of Battle were established specifically to circumvent a by-law that forbade the Ecclesiarchy of Terra from having _men_ -at-arms.
Sure, but they already existed as the Brides of the Emperor under Goge Vandire, and even before that, the Daughters of Emperor. So while Sebastian Thor banned "Men under arms" for the Eccelisiarchy, they could have still gotta away with it using just militias like they are already doing now (Munistorum's Crusaders come to mind). The sororitas were merely used to circumvant the problem of not having a formal military organisation, though the Ecclesiarchy can easily raise Fratis Militant as needed for its own needs (showing of course, how powerless any decree is in the wider imperium when enforcement is difficult, and loopholes are eagerly exploited).
They didn't show him the Repentia
A lore reason for the skaven chainmail hanging so low may be that this was looted from the corpse of a human and is a bit too big for the rat.
Mail is ridiculously easy to trim down, though. Using nothing more than a rock, a log, and an arrowhead, it would take maybe half an hour to cut that loincloth to size, and even if the rat didn't care about the extra weight, it _would_ care about being able to use the removed patch of mail to armor an area that would otherwise be left exposed.
They skavenged it.
@@irrelevantfish1978 But that means work... and work is bad. And for slaves. but no skaven will let his slaves touch or change his armour cause it might give them ideas....
Also the fact that skavens love to boast and make themselves look like they have resources to waste, even when it's not practical, would be a way of showing off
@@ThanatoselNyx r/angryupvote
Polite, respectful, and took the context and the fantasy nature fully into account when talking about the subject. It's always nice to see a professional at work!
Love his positivity and understanding that it's artistic representations of things. Expert reactions that only care about realism bore me no end, but him being an art historian, he can actually engage with the goal of these creations.
I stongly suspect that Dr. Capwell, in addition to being a historian and a jouster, is something of a nerd too.
@@Riceball01 to be an specialist of something, you have to be nerdy about it. for any job really
Tobias Capwell is always a joy to listen to. Even if a piece of armour doesn't meet his muster, he always has an interesting historic anecdote to provide or he makes an attempt to put the piece in context.
Oh my god it’s Johnathan’s evil twin. This is amazing.
Ha ha! That would explain Jonathan's interest in firearms, because Tobias has some rather specialized and dangerous skills for someone posing as a simple curator and historian.
Toby Capwell also worked or works at The Royal Armouries, so you aren't far from the truth. 😅
Edit: Did a little research and Capwell was one of the founding members of the Royal Armouries' jousting team.
Between Jonathan, David, Toby and Billy...We've got a real zombie survival team goin'
@Dave -IrregularDave- Jewitt inadvertently making the next "Left 4 Dead"-like. That'd be a game or mod I'd play
Tobias' little chuckle of excitement whenever he sees something cool just serves to emphasise how passionate he is about this stuff. Also really nice to hear an expert talking about things from a historical standpoint, but also appreciating that it's a fantasy setting. So many pedantic historical types love to put this stuff down because it's not accurate without so much as a thought for the fact that it's not meant to be. Lovely stuff!
It's fun hearing his reaction to the Empire units. Iirc, that whole faction basically started as a hodgepodge of historics miniatures
It was the role playing game that got it to be renaissance, partly as a counter to D&D's more medieval setting.
And the guys who sculpted almost all of the Empire units the Perry twins have run their own historical miniature company for decade and are big re-enactors too.
Yeah it is great how the Empire can easily and accurately be summed up with "Yeah Renaissance HRE, but with Griffins and a little magic thrown in".
I thought it was interesting when Capwell started talking about armor as both a practical object and as a work of art, because the franchise has its origins as a miniatures game. Being a personal expression is the whole point!
I wish they'd showed him the Primaris Astartes armouring up video, that showed how the big shoulder plates is basically hung/mounted on the actual pauldron underneath, and not directly lashed to the arm as most people assume when they first see them.
If you wanna see that then I realllly recommend hitting the subscribe button ;)
I always appreciate how intense and serious he is about his scholarship. Its a manner and an attitude I'd associate more with a corporate or tech industry person, somehow its encouraging to see someone in an intellectual, non-commercial pursuit being so obviously dedicated and unembarrassed to wear their passion on their sleeve.
As far as I know, there is an in-universe reason for the Sororitas' armour to be obviously female-shaped: they were the Eclesiarchy's army, and since an episode when the head of the religion also took over as the head of State(in behalf of the Emperor), they were banned from having any armed MEN under their command. But, by having armed WOMEN, they abode by the letter of the law. For that to be obvious, regardless of the place of the Galaxy, their armour emphasizes their feminity, so that Imperial Guardsmen, Space Marines, Inquisitors, Skitarii, Titans, Knights, and any other imperial armed forces had no doubts of their allegiance, and would not confuse them with agents of Chaos or other enemies...
Glad someone else said it! Ave Emperator!
There's also a case to be made that armor made for males in the medieval period had wasp-waists, and some wore codpieces. The first being fashionable at the time for men, the second being an obvious attempt to exaggerate the male form. It stands to reason that perhaps armor made for women might exaggerate the feminine form, too.
@Einhart was just about to point that out. If fighting women were more common then there would certainly be precedent of for more feminine armor and the personalization and customization of said armor
There's also the matter of them being descended from Vandire's personal guard / "companions". It's very likely Sororitas' armor has been derived from their own, which for a primarily ceremonial guard would have different design priorities than for a frontline soldier. Keeping it unchanged regardless would be a very Imperium thing to do.
@@Einhart My only issue with that is armor already exaggerates the chest of the wearer and putting a cleavage line in would necessarily weaken a breastplate in the worst possible spot (right above the heart). Also, in my real world experience, women who fight (Army, MMA, Boxing) tend to want to appear as masculine and intimidating as possible when in actual combat, and specifically reduce their feminine attributes.
This man needs to be part of the costume design team for the Amazon 40k show.
if Henry gets his way, the 40K show will be unlike anything ever seen.
@@Falcun21 If Henry gets his way the 40K show will be good as due to being a huge fan of the Warhammer franchise in it's entirety Henry Cavill knows what fans want to see in it, but since he's the lead producer along with playing the main protagonist Henry knows that due to possible budget restraints not everything that fans want to see in it will be possible to add to the show but he'll try to put as much stuff fans want to see in it due to the fact that like he said this is a dream project for him and he wants it to be not only a show for the fans of Warhammer 40K but also a good sci-fi/action show that fans in general can watch and enjoy.
Please give Warhammer games another run, and provide Tobias with images of Asur, Dawi, Kislevite and Cathayan soldiers, as well as most of the factions from 40k. I bet he still has a lot to say about these universes.
If the Emperor wills it
And maybe there's not a whole lot to get from their arms or armor, but I would LOVE to see more reactions to the Chaos Dwarves' hats.
He might comment on Druhkari wyches and gladiators etc.
While I'm sure most people watching this video would understand what the Asur and Dawi are, to translate into more generic fantasy terms: Asur = Elves (specifically High Elves); Dawi = Dwarfs (they insist it's not spelled with a 'v'); Kislev = Slavic/Russian inspired culture; Cathay = Chinese inspired culture.
I love that he both took it seriously and had fun with it. Like the winged horses isn't an issue, but how do you see to steer them lol
This guy is one of the best external experts you guys have ever featured, instantly up there with Jonathan Ferguson.
Toby has done quite a few videos here on youtube, often with swordtubers.
dont both om them work in the same institution also?
@@zaganim3813 Jonathan is the Gun and Artillery guy at the Tower Armouries in Leeds...
Tobias is the Arms and Armour guy at the Wallace Collection in London...
It's really cool that GWs old fantasy line was accurate enough to quickly identify the inspiration for the human factions
I hope they will keep this vibe for Old World.
I really like AoS but I really miss the elements of real world influence Fantasy had.
In Final Fantasy XIV, the armor worn by the Ishgardian Dragoons is covered in spikes because they're specialists in fighting dragons, and the spikes makes them less appealing targets for biting or eating.
@@justanassassin I only brought it up as an example of an actual lore reason why fantasy armor might have spikes on it.
@@aircraftcarrierwo-class Fantasy lore sure, but this guy is talking about (real world) historical lore. The guy even shared a story pointing out the difference of the two.
Fair point. Spikes seem to make some sense (at least in a fantasy) if the armor is worn by someone operating totally alone, likely to be surrounded by large numbers of enemies or a single large constricting/swallowing enemy. If they're in a tight formation formation... well then it's just a "rule of awesome" in effect I suppose. I do kind of like the idea of chaos warriors constantly whining at each other like old biddies:
"Olaf the Unclean, if your shoulder spike pokes me one more time I swear by Khorne I'm going to..."
"Oh, do shut up Hurgar the Cruel, your horned helmet has been scraping my armor for the last three campaigns!"
I remember one quote from one of the 40k rules codices. I'm paraphrasing here: "Camouflage is something when you do not want to be seen. It's something for the ordinary soldier. I colour myself in bright armor. I want the enemy to know I'm here. I want them to know fear, to know that I will end them."
theres actually quite a few times something like that is said in 40k. Carab Culln says "Camouflage is the colour of fear.”, and Dorn says "Camouflage is the color of cowards"
Toby is my favorite Historian. He's so well educated while being humble, fun loving and really passionate about history
He is such a treasure for us all. Most people here aren't aware how much of a reference he is in his field. The 3 books, monuments to his knowledge that he wrote, are wonders to read.
When he was reacting to the Space Marine 2 trailer they cut from a close-up of the IG character to him and I swear he looks just like that guardsman. I'll definitely name one of my guard models "Captain Tobias Capwell", that's my new fave head canon!
i was thinking the same thing hahaha
1:57 idk whats that is, some kind of corpse?
Oh yes, its even worse since its a corpse of a knight that some peasants literally stole from a grave, put on a wooden horse and parade around on the battlefield
Yep, the Grail Reliquae. Might have residual Blessings of the Lady that the knight had in life. More likely the peasants just believe that to be the case.
I'm actually somewhat surprised he didn't pick up on that (or maybe they just cut it out) since skulls or bones of saints as relics were absolutely a thing, historically. People would travel to churches specifically to touch some relic that was said to have beneficial powers and they might even get paraded around on special occasions. Not a full corpse like that and not in battle, but you know, the idea was there. Different churches would even sometimes be in competition for who had the best relics to attract the most visitors. Doesn't directly pertain to armour, but still an interesting topic relating to what was shown.
It seems like Toby or someone at GS really took the feedback on his last video to heart. It was really cool seeing him balance the historicity while still playing in the space of the fiction instead of just poo pooing the unrealistic elements like before. Loved this vid, can’t wait to see more of him
I think it's more the case that Warhammer just has way better art direction and logical consistency of lore & design than most other settings
I think it's because warhammer knows how to balance coolness and functionality instead of making it pure bs
This guy is awesome, I love how his commentary is going beyond historic accuracy and going into the design aspects and art critique.
This is by far the best {expert} reacts to {concept} i have seen. Focused on the aspects that were in the range of his expertise. With really great commentary and teachable moments. And let the fantasy be fantasy. Amazing.
So the thing about Chaos Warriors, is once they put the armor on, it never comes off, because it permanently fuses to their flesh. In older lore, i forget what edition of the tabletop, the armor would appear outside the camp of a chosen elite, who, taking it as the favor of their dark gods, would put it on a become a semi-immortal, never resting, warrior of chaos.
I remember a short story that was very similar, a guy and his servant who found a suit of armour and wore it. Eventually turned into a daemon, the armour being like a chrysalis.
The Thousand Sons where 'blessed' by Tzeentch with mutations that destroyed their physical forms while fusing their spirits with their armor.
@@MaFo82 There's a few things going on there that you're cutting out or mixing up.
The Thousand Sons had an issue where their geneseed is hilariously unstable and they have a tendancy to go all chaos spawn. When they fled into the eye of terror, this began to happen at a rate that would cause the legion to self-destruct so Ahriman, one of their most powerful sorcerers, attempted to cure the Thousand Sons of this.
When he cast the ritual, so called, the Rubric of Ahriman, it worked, and the legion was no longer plagued by rampant mutation - but all among the legion who were not psychic had their bodies destroyed and their souls bound to their armor, which is why such members of the Thousand Sons legion are called "Rubric" marines - marines whose state of existence as effectively automata were brought about by the Rubric of Ahriman.
So they were affected by Tzeentchian mutation, but the thing that destroyed the physical forms of many of them and sealed their armor was an action of the Thousand Sons themselves.
That is a misconcepption or overgeneralization. It is only true in very specific instances.
Khorne Berzerkers (Fantasy and 40k), Plague Marines/Knights and Thousand Sons (due to Ahriman´s Spell). The Thousand Sons don´t really follow what you mean too, as there is no body left to fuse with.
Of course there are individual examples of chosen ones who fuse with armour.
Interesting to hear how spot-on the Empire is to their intended era. So well done that he was able to recognize them being a renaissance germanic faction.
Space Marine armor is more robotic than standard armor. The pauldrons are a floating system on gyros. So as the wearer moves his arms, the system reacts and moves with it. They can actually pop out a bit to allow greater movement.
That's actually really interesting. First I've heard of it though-Is that in the codex somewhere, or a novel?
@@chaoko99 I think it's in the more recent codices and it can be seen in the "Arming of an Astartes" video
This seems pretty accurate. Even when looking at the models, the giant shoulder plate does NOT rest on the shoulder, it rests on a smaller shoulder plate undernearth, which raises it up. It moves as an extension of the arm, not as resting on the shoulder, which is the misconception.
If you have played the multiplayer for Space Marine, you would also know that those pauldrons absolutely serve a purpose: getting head shots was very difficult precisely because the shoulder pauldrons were so big!
@@micuu1they are basically two big shields. Samurai armors had same kind of armor
The knightly heraldry of the Astartes, the Renaissance pike-and-shot tactics the Empire espouses, various minor references like helmet top spikes and such, various iconography.. these are things I heard about over the decades, but I had no prior familiarity with the historical inspiration.
It's actually awesome to see that all the historical references that 80s/90s era GW made in their lore and visual designs are actually INSTANTLY recognizable by a real expert!
it's funny, as a kid whenever I saw Bloodbowl artwork of two spikey/bladed teams about to crash into each other I would always think "everyone in this picture is about to be maimed for life"
I love that he saw the historical context of both the bretonnians and the Empire from 14th century France and 16th century Germany/HRE. I would love to see him comment on the more fantast races, such as Dwarfs and Elves, see what he makes of these races.
I like this historian. He really gets what the artists at GW are going for, and why it is fun!
This was really good. He didn’t just tear them a new one, he pointed out where they were inaccurate, and also both pointed out where they actually got things right and pointed out how the designers managed to keep the cultural and psychological aspects of medieval armor design.
Seeing him refer to the marines as knights makes me wonder what he'd think of actual imperial Knights.
*makes note*
Next...episode...show...Toby...the giant...robot...houses
@@IrregularDave war horns intensifies.
Weirdly, in an interview... the guy who designed the first Space Marines said that they were inspired by photos of WW2 American infantry, going ashore in Normandy, the backpacks being a sci-fi take on the kit bags some of them carried. Referring to them as Knights is also completely valid, of course - they've evolved A LOT since the 80's.
@@IrregularDave “the Cathedral is walking. And killing.”
@Senbei01 so that's why they're called "marines"?
This was good, i loved seeing Toby lean into the analysis in-universe and from a storytelling point of view through the historical lens of armor use.
I dont know if he's just getting more comfortable or if he just really vibes with Warhammer but I hope we see more of this in the future.
Someone put this man in quarantaine cuz his enthusiasm is highly contagious!
Great guy, always enjoy his reactions. He actually takes the examples seriously, with both understanding of his field of expertise, and gaming design.
Was delighted to hear him praise Warhammer designs of armor and their understanding of it - thats something I left from the 1st time I saw a space marine, and feel to this day, but never had the words to describe as good as he did.
Thank you!
I love this guy, could listen to him for hours on end and never get bored. His knowledge is unrivaled, but the main thing is he adapts when he knows he's talking about fantasy, not only stating what is good/bad but where they've taken it from and how it would be applied in a fantasy setting - 12/10, MORE PLEASE :))
When he was talking about the Space Marine shoulder armor interfering with movement it was a nice touch showing it clipping through the character model to allow certain animations. It's like the in-game model of Geralt's arm unnaturally stretching to allow him to sheathe his swords on his back.
the way how he got the theme of factions really tells how good the visual storytelling of WH fantasy and 40K have.
For someone who knows nothing about Warhammer 40k his assessment of the Space Marines is spot on. They are just as much of a symbol as they are warriors.
the note about pilots are the knights of this modern warfare, is so true, especially in WW1, and how they respect each.
Even today, to fire on an ejected pilot, is frowned upon, the pilot as the modern Knights riding thier fighter "war steeds" is an epic image.
And I also appreciate the commentary regarding the armor 😊
I really enjoy seeing one of these expert reacting videos where instead of just pointing out everything that's different or wrong the whole time he focuses on and spends a lot of time talking about what's right and why things might be done the way they are
Kinda wish they had him look at more Warhammer Fantasy or at the very least more Warhammer Total War. Feels like that's more his territory.
This guy has such an excellent perspective to appreciate the artistic and storytelling design present in fiction - really being able to identify the abstracts of WHY specific non-historic things make sense to their universe, how using historical reference to separate groups blends that together in game design…
Dude’s smart AF
Would be great to see Tod from Tod's Workshop featured on this channel talking about the design of medieval/renaissance weapons
I love this historian. He clearly enjoys his job and has a good sense of humor.
I bet he'd like the Custodians, they are very individualist, they have their many names and honours inscribed on their armour, where Spaces Marines are taught to work as a team, the Custodians excel at individual combat.
What a great approach he has to this. He understands clearly the boundaries between historical and fantasy contexts and he goes into explaining the connections. Awesome video and great work!
19:50 He literally just got the entire gist of Nurgle by looking at those chaos marines.
The Grandfather is pleased
Toby totally nailed it for me. His thoughts on design and utility were a delight to hear. Fantastically good content. Thank you.
The meta reason for the giant pauldrons was to make it easier to pose arms on the miniatures. The shoulder might look really jank, but then you cover it up with the pauldron and it looks fine.
Completely right about American Football. I remember my coach saying when I first started playing that the modern pads have actually made the game less safe and that when he played they had much less padding and consequently hit a lot less harder than the modern game. Its like punching someone without a glove, you can’t hit as hard because you’ll break your hand.
Armour from the Fire Emblem games may be fun because you have the range of armour from fantasy to useful in different styles for different unit types that vary in "fanciness" depending on the backstory of the character.
"How's he getting so many shots out of single shot weapons- OH he's got lot of pistols, fair enough."
All the affirmation i need
10/10 would recommend
Would love to see For Honor. All characters rated how protective/usefull their armor is.
They did it in the first video th-cam.com/video/2o2TVJtikrE/w-d-xo.html
The answer would be that the armour is very bad with almost no understanding of how armour goes together in reality, and Toby would say that exact same thing.
Part of a previous video went into For Honor. From a couple of weeks back.
the "vikings" would give him a heart attack please no
@@Nosferatuラララララ he actually did a review video about armors in movies and tv shows, highly recommend it
Love Toby’s commentary for these. He gives everything a serious look and points out the technical details, but also remembers the context of fantasy and fun.
Right this was a great video and really interesting to hear from Tobias about his thoughts on the armor and heraldry! He made some really great points and it was fun to see him almost surprised at times by how close the designs are to their inspiration even while the designs remain, in some regards, very fanciful.
What a fantastic guest!
He did an amazing job talking about the armour and weapons from both a visual and historic standpoint even though they are outlandishly fantastical. I really enjoyed this vid and would love to see Tobias Capwell talking about this topic again.
I like Tobias. He's a good addition to the Expert Reacts series.
This was a very fun watch, I feel like Capwell understands Warhammer really well on an intuitive level just from how well he picked up not just the historical references, but also the creative license that was applied to them. For example, with the Sisters of Battle he immediately picked up that they were a religious order and the Joan of Arc links with the medieval France stuff.
Should be noted that the world of Warhammer Fantasy does have pretty similar if slightly exaggerated geology to our world and in fact the Empire is set up in the same location as Germany as well.
Pretty sure it’s Tibet
My b I failed reading comprehension and thought it was 40k
The Empire is basically the Holy Roman Empire lol
The fact he's immediately flabbergasted by the knights on pegasi bodes well
Should have included the various armours of the heros and their different careers in Vermintide 2.
I wonder what he would think about Bardin's Ironbreaker bearded helmets
one of the few times vermintide gets mentioned anywhere ever and it's about ratmen and kazakidum :P
I've always like Tobias' takes on things. I've seen multiple videos with him on different channels and he genuinely seems like he'd be an amazing person to just hang out with and discuss things with...
he may not know much about 40k but he understands it
here to pile on with the love for Tobias! I personally know next to nothing about Warhammer overall, but I think his stance is perfect for these types of videos. Giving allowances for game/visual design, along with the more fantastical side that comes with video games and media, but still pointing out nods to historical use. I'm sure there's a lot of historians who would just scoff at imagery like Warhammer's without a second thought, so its nice to see he's more interested in pointing out where things align, as versus just throwing the whole conversation out.
Was hoping the Sororitas would be covered in this and they were! 🙏🏻
Love your tutorials! I was just recently practicing from one of your videos, and then I saw you here. 😄
The Emperor Protects...
@Medicated Nixon ahh that's so funny!😅 thank you so much!❤
SISTERRRS ARE DOIN' IT FOR THEMSELLLVES
On the practicality of the Shoulder Plates. At 10:31 you can see that the Armor beneath the Shoulder is segmented and movable and the Plate is connected to one of the movable segments, so it is able to move above the Arm.
I absolutely love how he nailed the plague marines.
I enjoyed this video a lot, seen Toby pop up in a few other historical videos and I love seeing him embrace the silly and fantastical side of Warhammer whilst still explaining the functional sides
Well done!
I'm willing to bet Warhammer Fantasy having such a great historical theme was, in part, thanks to the era the miniatures were made in and their neighbors. Most likely they were competing with equally (or even more) accurate model sets of knights and the like, and so the competition lead to excellence especially when you get to videogames.
I’m a really big fan of how much of the benefit of the doubt this guy gives to fantasy settings
He’s not dismissive of the fantastic elements, but embraces them
Mad respect, I hope he’s well
Warhammer: It's pretty cool, but I'd never want to go there.
Perfect description.
I really like how the expert not just shown great insight but also demonstrated that warhammer/40k have actually good designs for transporting what they trying to do.
I think it's amazing that he recognizes the artistic intent behind everything.
"I like that more then i thought i would"
Welcome to warhammer.