Perfect 3d Printed Undersides - Dial in your slicer's support settings!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2023
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3D Printing Supports - they're better. Better than even a couple of years ago. We should talk about that.
The printers used in this video were the bambulab P1S and X1C: lostintech.co.uk/P1S
And the new Ender 3 V3 E3 ($199!?): lostintech.co.uk/E3V3
Also the sovol SV04: lostintech.co.uk/sovol
All the above are affiliate links.
Cactus logo thanks to / @3dprintsandleaves
Models:
dice: www.thingiverse.com/thing:551...
velociraptor: www.printables.com/model/2658...
mushroom by Artec: www.thingiverse.com/thing:16146 (originally www.artec3d.com/3d-models)
MODBOT: www.youtube.com/@ModBotArmy/v...
"Lobby Time" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
creativecommons.org/licenses/b...
If you can't do multiple materials, do organic supports with incredibly low density and it will just make thin walls of support structure which add little printing time and use little material. Then use a reasonable support interface density with at least 3 layers to allow bridging to stop. Add a roof that is very dense with minimal spacing to the actual part and it it will give you the best quality underside while still being removable. That's basically my method if I want optimal quality. Like you said, tune the interface, the supports really don't need much structure at all to function as long as you build them up at the top.
^This^. Also, under some circumstances, the "add interface loops" -provide a standoff from the support to sort of help support the object, which is effectively a bridge in that area.- I guess this is not really accurate, it just produces less surface area for adhesion between the support layer and the object.
three balls in a cage? you usually have to pay extra for that
there’s a lot of weird things that people pay good money for lol
Support is printed as a half layer in Prusaslicer. That's why there's an option to sync supports with the print.
So like, half layer height gaps?
I think it's important to note that when using multiple materials in a single extruder, you need to make sure your purge volume is sufficient to remove all of the support material. Otherwise, you can end up with weak layer adhesion and other inconsistencies in your next layer(s).
Video is good for people with multimaterial printers. Title is misleading however. It is not dialing, it is just about how to use different material and you need multimaterial printer, which most people don't have, so it should be said in title, that it is for multimaterial printers. For me it was waste of my time.
Thanks, these type of videos piss me off because I sat through a whole video to not get a single piece of information about dialing in. Annoying to someone like myself who is trying to learn supports
Thank you, saved me time and also from subscribing to another click bate channel!
A quick search on researchgate suggests, counterintuitively, that *COLD* water is better at hydrolyzing PVA. Some substances just get gloppy in warm water. _"Why does it work? A polymer in solution has to balance two effects - hydration which will want to make the polymer molecular unravel and entropy that wants the polymer to coil up somewhat. Hydration is easier at low temperatures and - thanks to thermodynamics - unraveling is easier and so the polymer dissolves more readily"_
Cold water and agitation- a stir plate if you have one for a resin printer. PVA is alcohol soluble as well, and sometimes a mixture of solvents is more effective than a single solvent, so maybe 20/80 isopropanol/water.
In PrusaSlicer and its forks, it can set a Z distance between the support interface and the part at non-multiples of the layer height.
It will print the support at a different layer height and make the top interface at the right gap you set.
Also true in SuperSlicer and OrcaSlicer, as far as I know. 👍
Interesting..... I'll have to test that out
I had my library print some stuff for me before I got my own printer, and theirs had some _fantastic_ results with PVA supports. My best guess is good results with PVA requires two things:
1. A full multi extruder/nozzle solution, not just filament changing
2. Very dry PVA, as it is incredibly hydroscopic and will bloat itself with water rapidly (this is an educated guess btw, as the library's printers were running almost nonstop and therefore went through reels of filament very quickly)
...but outright dual nozzle systems tend to be expensive/commercial, so this is moot for almost everyone tbh
yeah I did feel I could have spent some time tuning PVA, I might try to dry it for a few further days and see what happens.
I was designing a Idex system for one of my printers and then came organic/tree support, since then I have not felt the need for a second extruder. Maybe in the Future.
I appreciate this video. I think these types of explorations are more and more important as IDEX and multimaterial systems become more and more popular. One note about PVA, I have heard that you can speed up the dissolving process if you have warmer water (not too warm that it warps/affects the other plastic) and move it around a bit. A clever solution I saw someone do is write a very basic gcode script that moves a heated bed of the 3D printer back and forth for an extended time period and place the tub of water on the bed. That doesn't solve the issue of the water getting saturated and becoming less effective at dissolving the PVA, but it might help.
I think that's the mistake I made, I used 55Cish water and I think that's what snapped the fragile model. PVA is one of those things where I think you could improve the interface, and stringing, and neatness, but I was so put off by the amount of cleanup/water that I thought it really is inferior to the other methods in all but the very niche cases. It was cool though!
next time you're making a chart like the one at 8:00, I'd recommend looking up a colorblind-accessible palette -- I'm sure it's a useful resource, but unfortunately, it's more or less impossible for me to tell what some of these combos are.
Why useles? Does it matter when you can't recognize which color the text is? This comment isn't disrespectfull meant, i am just interesstet.
@@fabianluethi03 the thing I can't recognize is what colors the boxes in the grid are.
My ultimaker worked great with PVA. Just used the standard profiles. Just put the parts in a dishwasher to dissolve the PVA. Sold the printer 3-4 years so. Using aBambu X1C now, but have not tried the support materials. Will have to give it a go.
Orca Slicer allows you to change the Z gap between the support and the print to something other than a multiple of the layer height but not sure if you can go sub-layer height
I use supports with TPU prints without any issue. Specifically, I use TPU to support itself. It helps to have your support settings tuned well, but it works.
Petg works great as a support for Nylon and ASA. I use the space grey Amazon basics one because I find it does weirdly better at higher temps. Jayo Petg is great for PLA. haven’t tried other brands
Back during the height of the pandemic I printed some mask straps for my (at the time) pre-schooler. I used TPU for the strap and then did superhero logo detailing in PETG. The bond was actually quite strong, so I'd recommend not using PETG as the support interface material when paired with TPU.
Don’t forget about sharpie based supports!
I've never heard of that until now!
I have a tip for you. If it’s flat support pause and use a marker on them before it prints the layer on top. Print with 0 gap. They will break away super easy.
I will try this! That’s the kind of advanced trick I expected from the video glad I went through it to find your comment, otherwise it would have been a waste of time.
Let's go!! I was waiting on this one thank you!
Omg I remember requesting this so I could point people to it instead of writing a paragraph everytime someone asks
Thanks for the video. Got a Neptune 4 Plus back in November, and back CoPrints multi-color extruder system in December, so hope to get multi-spool support in a month or so once they start shipping. This will help out a lot with the different TPU projects I have going now. I have tuned the TPU supports to where they did come off fairly easily at the cost of some layer adhesion, which is not ideal, but actually helps my part be slightly more flexible and easier to work with for its design purpose. Will certainly be experimenting with support material once I get my new print head.
Another note on the solubility of PVA: glue stick is commonly used as a bed adhesion modifier. Most people apply it by simply rubbing the bed with the glue stick, but if you dissolve the glue stick in a small amount of water first, you can make a PVA slurry, apply it with a brush, and then use the heated bed to dry it. This gets a much more uniform coating than directly using the glue stick.
Perfect timing. I’m just about to need a bit of supports
I don't know what you've smoked before making this video, but please, do it before every video! This episode comments/jokes were awesome :)
If I'm being serious you know there's something wrong 🤣
@@LostInTech3D and I support it (pun intended 😂)
So I use orca slicer and my support interface gap is set too 0.08 and I have a cpap remote cooler setup and the supports are pretty easy to remove so I am pretty sure that orca slicer will do smaller than single layer interface gaps.
Thank you for the Video. Can you go into more detail with the interface settings? ive played around with the settings a lot but have yet to get results that i like.
Yes I absolutely can - I wanted to do it in this video but I was also not seeing very obvious results. So I'll do more investigation and present the findings properly :)
7:20 - I'm pretty sure Prusa slicer allows you to do half layers. If you're printing 0.2 mm layer height, you can set the gap between your supports and your part to be 0.1 mm, and you can even see this as you preview the sliced file layer by layer.
I have had some luck printing horribly thin and fragile structures which need extensive support because they were really designed for MJF, using PrusaSlicer. It generated some sort of fragile curly surface that broke apart and peeled off. I haven't had much luck with Cura support roof for these. I print in HIPS.
I have wanted for a while to do something about printing miniatures and the challenges they bring, especially when you go to a lower size nozzle - supports kinda don't work. It's sorta the same problem I think
@@LostInTech3D My comments are both hidden, but just wanted to say it looks like PVA may actually be more soluble in cold water.
I have access to a ultimaker 5 with the material station at my college, this video really helped me out thank you, hopefully I should see some good results as the pva is a ultimaker filament 🤔
I _think_ that ultimaker have spent a lot of time tuning their PVA to their machines, so yeah.
I legit thought seeing the thumbnail that it was from a different 3d printing channel. Ha ha. Good value regardless!
Haha which one?
@@LostInTech3D slant3d. They have thumbnails exactly like this.
30 seconds if that into the video already. Super interested. This is what I love about the 3D printing community. You rock dude. I wish you good health and success on your channel. For the record I had to edit real fans and subscribers. Don't need a reason to stick around sir
Ive heard there are usually issues with doing a dedicated supportnmsterial on an ams style machine is that it usually messes with layer adhesion. Is this the case with the ams still?
I had some issues with tree support snapping but otherwise no
Absolutely! However, if you triple purge length and significantly widen your purge tower, your results will be much more acceptable. Otherwise, the results will look pretty but a hard sneeze will snap the parts.
Could i put a thin paper sheet on the top of the Support? Like you frint on fabric. I have to test that
baking paper, yeah, try it and let me know!
TPU with PLA support seems clever. Can the AMS take any kind of TPU to do this?
They actually coded in protection in the slicer to stop you putting tpu in so, no not really.
PrusaSlicer for the win. You can set the Z top and bottom distance between support and the model (and interface layer) to anything you like. Depending on which printer and material I use either 0.25 or 0.28 when printing at a 0.2mm layer height. Easily removable supports with virtually no scarring.
Does Cura have the option to add and print googly eyes or is it only in other slicers? I've looked everywhere!
It's a plugin 🤣
@@LostInTech3D That explains it 😂🤣😂🤣
There is a technique to print PLA with PLA supports with zero clearance. Andjust the parameters of the interface layer to a line width of .2mm, set the flow rate to 66%, and a support interface density of 33%. the interface will print properly but will pop off easily and any support interface left behind, it will just rub off.
yeah underextruding, I thought about that, since it does that on parts by accident
Hi there! Which software you used to design your PCB? I REALLY want to dive into it!
That's Fusion 360, although everyone yelled at me for using it 🤣 it's actually fairly intuitive...ish 😁
Is it possible to make support color changes to match what you are printing , and or print a color that will be using the most of a filament that is printing multi colors on the same plane . and switch to the next that is usung more than the other colors?
Would be cool if the screencap was also 4k. You can use super resolution and display scaling to get sharp zoomed footage
Oh, good idea!
05:08 That cactus turned out really well! And overall the boards are so cute and shiny. Those must be for the video about cactus support, am I right?
The tip about using the support material just for the interface layer is a very good one, that's going to save tons of time on a fine layer model...
-Have you tried a combination of that with 'tree support'?
I did - it works with most models, but the actual serious reason use that mushroom is because it's an effective support torture test - the clip at the beginning has many tree/interface mixes and most of them snapped mid print - the reason is actually weird, the slicer seems to use the support material for the whole support layer not just the interface part, so the trees have a weak section. It's probably a slicer bug and I should probably report it.
trying my best to think of a solution for purge waste for using support material (personally using bambu's stuff) when supporting something like a tabletop mini print that has many different layer heights where an interface could be useful.
The name is "Dial in your slicer's support settings", but the video is actually about choosing the secondary support material for those who can print multimaterial.
What do you propose for the best budget multi-extruder printer? My ender 3 (first generation, 2018) is long in the tooth and I'm considering replacing it with a non-bedslinger (or, probably, use them both). I like the idea of a voron, and the K1 Max has been well-received among friends, but neither are dual-or-more extruder, so...
multi extruder? not a lot of choices out there is there. I wish there were more. I did review the SV04 a while back.
Hello, jus thought I'd point out that the new soluble PVA Bambu recently announced, states on their site that it's AMS compatible.
If you didn't dry your PVA with the heat of the surface of the sun for a day or two that's almost guaranteed to be the cause of the meh prints. I dry at 85C for about 3 days with a new spool and continuously with a PrintDry Pro at 65C when using the PVA. Results look great then!
I recently bought a sovol sv04. IDEX printers are a gamechanger and it is a shame sovol kinda forgot to proper support of their unique printer. It is the most affordable IDEX out there.
When using a multi-extruder setup, PrusaSlicer allows you to use a different extruder for the support structure and the interface layers, so you can print the bulk of the support in whatever you're printing the model with, and just the interface in PVA or breakaway support material. Less expensive material used, and less material to dissolve if you're using PVA!
Ok, here me out. For single head, single material, systems, an applicator, attached and aligned with the head, that can dispense a thin film of adhesion-preventing something. Maybe as simple as a marker that applies a thin oil layer to the last layer of the support, before the actual layers.
I assume some oil could be choose to have a high affinity/wicking to the build material, so it stays thin.
damn good idea....if not oil, then _something_ , maybe wax or whatever.
Wow a support release agent is a great idea! Having to be there when the print pauses to add it would be a bit of a pain especially depending on model, but a tool head could also be designed to do it hahaha.
Yes it has been tried and it works. Sharpie works perfectly well as a release agent.
I find that PETG bonds rather well to TPU (at least a lot better than PLA does to TPU) so, yeah, your statement about PLA being the better of the two for removable support for TPU is right.
Now I just need an IDEX printer...
IDEX printers are amazing and I hate that they aren't more popular
Did you ever release the video you mention @5:07?
just the opposite, from my experience, PLA and HIPS bonds pretty well.... i havent done alot with it though.
What is the software that you used??
Even though I lost $200, I'm glad I offloaded my SV04. I really didn't like that printer. It looks like at least the quality is consistent with other people. 😆
I am trying to do the the pla and petg supports but the petg doesn’t stick. Anyone have any tips?
It's probably down to the petg. I was using sunlu
Why can't the bamboo labs AMS support it though? It's is something that could be modded in? Or is it a more fundamental problem with the printers / AMS?
Support what? 🤔 PVA? They just released one that supposedly (emphasis on supposedly) does
The way the AMS work, it have mechanical problems with soft materials like PVA and TPU. It might work but not reliable. Pushing soft materials in long tubes forth and back is not optimal. This will most likely be the same for all other similar multicolor products coming from different companies this summer. The reliability might differ a little bit between products because of small differences but I think all will struggle with softer materials and it will only be minor differences where the limit is.
i wish I knew how to design pcbs lol
you can do it, if I figured it out
What we need is an option in the slicer that creates a "flip" in the program that allows you to flip your part over and run the 2nd half of the program eliminating the poor quality on the underside of your prints.
I have no idea how you could do that and line up the layers to be perfect
@@tatertime you'd need some kind of fixturing to be printed in the first part of the print. Say for instance, a couple of alignment pins protruding up from the print bed. At the upper portion of the first half of your print the slicer would need to add some type of brim (figuratively speaking) with holes in it that would line up with the pins when the part was flipped over. Of course, this is all hypothetical
@@RYTHMICRIOT Ok, if that were somehow lined up perfectly that does sound like it would work. You could actually have two different gcode files for when you want it to print the upside down part and have the print in an area where the printer can still home.
... Well now I want to try this lol
@@tatertime yeah, is difficult. Lots of variables. Like, I'm not sure I put my magnetic print bed on exactly the same each time. And then what's the best way to start the 2nd program at the appropriate "Z" position? I think it could work. Probably best to test with a simple print geometry. Like a cube or sphere.
In my experience I gotta say prusa makes far better support than cura. When the settings are right, and by that I mean for example flow rate for bridges (set that low), then it removes soooo easily
I agree, the bridging default and paths are better in prusa.
...for now 😏
"How do you get a perfect 3d printed underside?"
"Just buy a new 3d printer that supports multiple materials, despite them usually being pretty wasteful and expensive"
epic
The 4k video quality is actually a bit annoying. I K probably the only person to complain about this, but when the video automatically switches to 4k, the video plays in like 15 fps. Not Sure if it's slow wifi or a bad phone, but excellent video nonetheless
Interesting...certainly isn't uploaded at 15fps, but my phone isn't 4k so it doesn't default to it I guess.
@@LostInTech3Dyeah neither is mine so it doesn't affect me. You don't have to refrain from uploading in 4k just because of me though
Haha. I have no idea what I plan to do, 4k footage is huge and annoying.
@@LostInTech3DI say it's better to have at least 1440p if not higher than not to, because TH-cam 1080p quality is filthy.
Nothing more fun than listening to an Englishman.
i bet you could recycle pva fillament from the water... somehow
I dunno...I think its a chemical change but maybe!
i believe in you!
"What if you don't have a multimaterial machine?" *proceeds to explain how to save time and filament on a multimaterial machine
???
wow... nothing about tuning support settings. Figured I'd finish watching anyway to see the results of dissolving supports. Bonus fail.
I hate that when you are a beginner on 3D printing, there is NEVER a nice way to learn about supports. You will always be sent to the BAD way
Was trying to learn supports thanks for wasting my time. Lame
if you play it in reverse you can get your time back.
Fantastic video, while you sir are 100% an engineer! Someone who makes videos for a living is called a video engineer. Pun intended.
haha