Why Do Smash Players Still Play On HUGE Old TVs?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 มิ.ย. 2024
- Compared to other esports events, Super Smash Bros Melee tournaments are an outlier not only in the longevity of the title but also in terms of setups with the unique prevalence of cathode ray tube televisions.
Is it nostalgia? Is it the responsive timing? In today's video, we take a look into why SSBM players still play on huge CRT TVs.
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Wait the little people aren’t really in the tv :(
Awwww
Yea. Turned out, it’s only one wizard in the tv
I'm pretty sure they used to be, just not anymore
That's why the CRTs were so big. They had to fit the little guys in there
Of course there are. Its the part they didnt understand in the beginning. I would know. I am a TV-ologist
CRTVs was a phone call situation of being called Shorty Television originally but eventually became as we know today 😭 it's a shame
5:10 for further context, it wasn't necessarily JUST the switch to monitors that upset the community, but it was also the timing of said announcement (literally a few days before the tournament starts, giving pros little to no time to adjust)
The polling rate fix is such a nice inclusion. Lots of people never give slippi a chance because without it it feels so bad
I know it's blasphemy to use a different pad for melee but is this necessary if you are not using a gamecube controller.
There is some kind of polling fix tho right? I have it installed I believe
@@charliericker274 If it's something like a ps3 controller I do not believe any kind of fix is required. If you are using a keyboard it is certainly not required. The discourse around controllers in the community is a bit tiring just play with whatever you have fun with :)
@@FirePuff12 I believe ucf implements a polling fix for in-game polling issues. However, the polling fix here fixes the hardware problem present in many gc to usb adapters
@@v0nman the way that it works is that basically when you plug a gcc adapter into your computer, by default the polling rate is set to about 125 hz. The polling rate does not actually change the way that the gcc adapter works in any way, instead it changes the number of times per second that your computer is checking what your controller is doing. The actual issue is not on a hardware level, but rather on a software level because the operating system of the computer needs to be told to check on the gcc adapter more often. when you increase the rate at which your computer is checking your input, it decreases the time in between inputs read, and thus makes it so that your inputs will be more up-to-date in game.
6:49 Funny story: I bought an Xbox 360 S when I was in middle school, and when I was hooking it up with my dad, I read that it should be connected to the TV with an HDMI cable. Since it didn't come with one, I asked where I could get one.
"You don't need that!", my dad said. "Here, just use these aux cables, and unplug the PS2."
Since I didn't know any better, I played my HD console at 480p for two years, unable to read Halo subtitles and Skyrim inventory labels without getting up close to the TV.
Finally, I went to an all-night video game marathon at a friends' house in high school. I went to plug in my Xbox to a TV, and was puzzled to find no aux ports.
"How can I plug my cables into here?", I asked. There was a moment of quiet confusion in the room, as a half-dozen of my friends struggled to understand what I was asking.
"Uh...Jet, these TVs only take HDMI. Why did you bring aux cords? You didn't bring a Wii!"
One guy took pity on me, and lent me an HDMI cable. When I plugged it in, and saw how crisp and clear everything was, it blew my brain. I imagine it's a smaller-scale version of what it's like when someone gets glasses for the first time, or has cataracts removed. Suddenly, there was detail! Text was legible! Shapes weren't (quite as) blurry!
The moral of the story is, my dad isn't nearly as tech savvy as he pretends to be.
Are the video cables Component (YPbPr: green, blue and red video plugs)? If so, you can at least play your Xbox 360 games in 480p and higher screen resolutions. If your system doesn't have HDMI, it's best to use Xbox 360 VGA cables, as they tend to have better image clarity than Component. Many HDTVs released during the 360's prime years had VGA input to accommodate these consoles and other computers.
I would be so mad dude
One thing to note is tournaments running on monitor aren't always using emultation. Most run on console, usually using component with Sync On Green or an hdmi adapter with a Wii or GameCube.
I've actually never heard of one using emulation. I don't think it's as perfect/buttery smooth as this video makes it out to be tbh... frame pacing in particular is hugely imperfect in my experience, despite having a 144hz monitor and pretty decent midrange PC.
i think doing it on emulation would be a nightmare because every single pc (and lcd monitor) is slightly different and could be more laggier than another for a massive amount of reasons
you could mybe standardize them if theyre all supplied by a t.o but itd be way more expensive than wiis/crts
every modern fighting game that has a pc release avoids it for tournament play for many of these reasons it seems
CRTs lag, image and size can vary a lot. I don't think that's the reason they're not being used @@RosalinaSama
@@doublejazz they can but not as much as LCDs imo, ive ran tournaments for years and only ever encountered 1 crt that players complained about lag on, compared to dozens of monitors
Playing on a CRT is something you really gotta have done to know what it's like, my melee local used to have those and it felt so much more different than playing slippi at home but in a good way.
knowing melee players i wouldnt be surprised if they started making their own CRTs
That's legitimately a question I have had. Not just with Melee and tvs btw, but why stuff like after market consoles aren't more widespread.
@wonderboke I think from a small scale, it's bound to happen eventually. Happned with controllers (Phobs and Goomwaves). I'd argue in 50-100 years there will be enough demand - not just Melee players use them, all retro gamers use them.
probably with blackjack and hookers to boot....
Emulated doesn't need to mean pirated. People running those turnaments are defenitely tech savvy enough to rip a couple of gamecube discs that they legitimally own.
Nintendo still isn't okay with that, even tho it's perfectly legal, they've shut down tournaments for less
@@irongiant5951 I think the issue was in the video it was "emulated, see: pirated" as if they are equivalent terms.
To Nintendo it might as well be the same, though the concern is useful to highlight
Tell that to Nintendo lawyers. During COVID they C&D an online emulated Smash Melee tournament, the claim was precisely piracy.
Sadly Nintendo doesn't like emulation at all.
@@InariOkami yes, Nintendo and their lawyers gave a bullcrap reason. The reality is its their IP, and regardless of whether or not there was piracy involved, they have to right to shut it down. I recommend Hoeg Law's video about it if you want to hear from an actual lawyer's opinion. Basically Nintendo is stupid for making it seem like it's about that, when they have no legal footing for that whatsoever.
I don't think the solution is as simple as "there are flatscreens that are as good as crts". TOs can't be expected to provide top level monitors for every setup at a tournament. At most ultimate locals, the quality of tv per setup varies widely based on what people bring with them and most of them aren't great. Until CRT level lag monitors become easily accessible at affordable prices, CRTs are still the best option in tournament.
Not every one of us also has a CRT available and buying one since most are fucking expensive sucks even further.
144hz gaming monitors can be had for like $150 now. They're nearly a commodity product. They aren't at secondary market prices like CRTs have been in previous years, but they're not exactly unobtainium.
@@lapplandkun9273I have never once paid for a CRT. If you keep an eye out, it's not hard to find someone who has one who would love to get rid of it.
It's much harder to find people with 144hz gaming monitors they are willing to get rid of.
@@TheBellmanits not so much that theyre unobtainable but itd be insanely tedious to enforce that all monitors being brought by the community meet the standard youd want
@@TheBellmanwhereas like 99% of crts anyone could possibly bring should have a much lower variance
That montage was so impressive!
This would've been a great opportunity to talk about 60hz strobing. It's because of strobing that CRTs are able to have zero motion blur. 120hz LCD has the right response/input lag but you will have a double image with a 60hz game. Perfect-ish 1 to 1 setup compared to CRT would be 60hz strobing LCD with roughly 8ms total input lag (top of CRT has basically zero lag while bottom has 16ms because of the time it takes to draw the image).
My parents have a 1990 panasonic boulder that had one of the biggest screens on the market and has every pre-hdmi outlet you can think of. Ever since we cut cable, it's now used for classic consoles with its somehow still great picture quality and I will try my hardest to find a proper space for it eventually.
Jealous
Is there any reason why CRT TVs are no longer made even by independent companies? Are they truly that hard to make? I know for example that no country in the world is able to make a decent smartphone on its own, so I don't know about TVs.
It's partly an economies of scale thing and partly due to the hazards involved. CRTs require a lot of specialized parts that really need to be produced on a massive scale to be economical. The general demand isn't there anymore for that type of scale. So you'd be looking at thousands of dollars for a set (plus incredibly high shipping prices for weight and fragility adding to that cost). The second aspect is there are a number of hazardous materials in considerably larger quantities than what you find in flat panels: lead, cadmium, barium, and phosphorescent powders being the most notable. The way these are integrated into the construction require special pipelines to safely recycle (few of which still exist in 2023) and many landfills no longer accept them due to ground contamination so disposal can be a challenge.
most people arent buying them lol
@@RefRed_Kingyou reply like this to someone giving a genuine answer? For what reason.
@@RefRed_Kingyou seem like you have a negative IQ to be replying like that to someone giving an actual answer to someone genuinely asking a question.
@@RefRed_KingWow, you're a real piece of work, aren't you?
STAYED FOR THE MONTAGE👍
just wanted to say that the bit at 6:47 made me realize I also wasn't on 144 hertz on my monitor so thanks for the heads up about that lmao
To be honest if I get more money from working I may invest in making a CRT business where I just learn to make newer CRT's that could surpass the old ones while also having ones that replicate the old ones.
I already own like 9 CRTs in my house and it is a pain trying to find them now a days.
You should do so. It’s a nice niche that actively has interest
You should!! I have 2 myself. 😮
Funny how it took so many years until OLED to finally catch up or surpass CRT technology. It was a rough few decades, but we made it!
Great video as always! Something I've noticed is that tourneys very rarely use PC melee with monitors but converters on wiis instead. For whatever reason it seems that this makes a big difference, or at least tournaments I've been to have had monitor + wii setups that have felt very different from one to the next and not all of them feel great
Emulation in general is a rlly dodgy area with nintendos legal team. Additionally wiis are super cheap, run kuch more stable than an emulator, and is true to the intended game design, whereas emulators might change certain small things
Hey! The widescreen melee setting you showed is actually not a great way to do it, it has buggy effects such as the added widescreen areas not having correct sfx.
David Kimball has a video on widescreen melee with the proper settings that I would recommend!
Thanks :)
Also, widescreen means you can see further offstage, and so characters like jigglypuff can have an easier time going offstage to catch people recovering, as they can see exactly where they're going.
@@JustinBA007and so the meta evolves further 😮
I've been playing Melee competitively for nearly a decade, and yes, I do play on a giant CRT.
loving the LOVE for Melee you guys have
love the melee content
My school donated a crt to me as they weren’t using them anymore, so I recommend you do this if possible
Thank you for using my TH-cam video as a reference to what you are discussing in this video. I appreciate that you were working on this video for so long and I am glad it came out the way it did. Thank you.
6:34 is just legendary
Can we get some manufacrurer to make CRTs again?
Thanks for the BlippiGG shout out!
This was interesting. I never understood why tournaments always used CRTs instead of newer televisions, and why Melee players preferred them.
Im so glad you used my clip!
CRT are still so fun to play with
Thanks for the vid
The information in this video is really good and helpful but not distinguishing Wii + HDMI adapter vs emulator when talking about "monitor melee" is a huge oversight. Really wish that was dealt with properly because there are already so many people who are familiar with or part of the melee community that don't know this. Oh well.
Do Melee players know the game can be played in HDTVs at 480p using the component cable of the Game Cube or Wii? That option has been available since 2001 (well, 2006 in the case of the Wii) and the game plays without frame skipping, nor imput lag from the monitor. I play Melee competitively and use both CRTs and HDTVs regularly and haven't noticed any problem with the component cable in all these years.
Imagine a world where Nintendo didnt fuck over the Melee community every time they try to compete on non stone-age hardware.
Tbh maybe it’s because they want people to JUST MOVE ON!!!!! I seriously doubt they foresaw melee being a tournament staple nearly 20 years after release.
@@Paprika_Real4 they have fucked over melee last year and the year before that over 20 years post launch
But crts are stone age? It's just that LCDs somehow are worse
@@Watburnt Examples?
@@lapplandkun9273 when they shut down the smash world tour shutting down tournaments that used slippi during the pandemic stopping it from being at evo multiple times
thats just a small bit of what nintendo has done you bootlicker
I work at a recycling plant. To me, it seems like we'll never run out of CRT tvs
There are a handful of backpanels that truly get you the ~1ms response time. Most of the monitors that display it require you to go into the settings on the display and turn on the overclock.
I miss lugging crts around campus. Everyone else always looked so puzzled.
Slippy did kill our local scene. Before someone comes and says, "build it and they will come," most of us now work full time and have families.
Better online than traveling to some random ass place, probably get 1-2 hours of sleep due to jet lag or waking up early and having to compete and having to drink caffeine just to compete. Slippi saved the pain of most smash players having to compete in person especially those who are hermits like myself
Good vid :)
7:53 100 Years!?! That is really optimistic.
What would stop enthusiasts from paying to get new CRT's manufactured?
I don't think they'll truly die, but could become like vinyl where only hipsters and SSBM pros use them.
Didn’t even know about LTC monitors even tho I was there
Dang it I JUST found a 32 inch Sony Trinitron too!
Self Made montage music and saying plates you earned my sub and like
0:49 ...you good, mate?
one day I hope the melee community will be ready for a 120fps hack on PC
How would that even work. Nintendo only made enough animation frames for 60fps. There wouldn't be any animations to fill the extra frames with?
there was a project that featured an option like this called faster melee which did increase the game's fps to 120, but was abandoned afterwards.
Artificially doubling the native frame rate would mess with the games animations and frame data and generally make the game look and play worse.
@@A-Spoto keyframes and interpolation between them, how modern games handle variable framerates
Nice transition editing hahahahaha!
Also there's a lag reduction mod for flat screen melee.
2:20 you just said Plasmas had high input lag a few seconds ago 🤔
I have a 144hz monitor (ASUS VG279Q) and followed all the steps in this video, but melee still feels significantly more responsive on real console + CRT to me. I really don't think it's placebo either, since I was really caught off guard by the difference after playing on CRT for the first time in a while. I have no idea why though. Another thing I've noticed is that frame times are really inconsistent on dolphin to the point where motion can feel noticeably jittery compared to CRT/console even while maintaining a perfect 60fps. Basically, I disagree that Slippi feels just as good. I just don't think we're there yet.
Still feels great though and I'm super glad to have it. Wouldn't have gotten into melee at all if not for Fizzi's hard work :)
Through emulation and modding, Melee can have LESS latency than vanilla on CRT.
Unless motion blur is resolved in modern displays, the Smash community will not want to move away from CRTs.
4:33 What? I am genuinely confused. Dolphin enhances Melee greatly in many ways, but it doesn't do sh*t about the response time of your monitor and/or TV. So how is it "an alternative to a crt"? As stated later in the video, there are great monitors and OLED TV's that cut down the refresh to near-crt-level, but THAT has nothing to do with Dolphin itself. I'm sure I'm just missing the point here, I'd love to be enlightened.
EDIT: Ah nevermind, it's about the latency added by the connection from real hardware to such a new screen, isn't it?
Vanilla melee on a console has lag to it that community members have found ways to greatly reduce when using an emulator, so much so that you can actually get lower input lag on emulator than on a CRT with a console. However if you use an LCD with a console the LCD will be adding on a small amount to that consoles input lag.
As everyone is use to the CRT+console input lag this is effectively the norm and emulators actually will put on a small amount of input lag to match that of a CRT, this lag reduction is also part of what allows the rollback netcode used in Slippi.
@@flamepan I see, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining :)
Only Supremacy worth fighting for
CRT Supremacy for life
I have a large CRT for my lounge room and I’m never going to switch to flat, too many retro consoles and the heart is there where it wouldn’t be on a flat
Thanks for the vid guys c:
random thought: id like to see a melee mod with ultimate style smears
1:36 that was hard to watch
I am not a competive melee player
but I do love gaming on a CRT
a few years ago I bought a CRT off ebay and when It came It had sound Issues and the scart(main Input In the UK) had a bad connection
so now I use It with an N64 via RF which doesn't look terrible, gamecube Is where Is suffers but even then the scart works enough that It can be played as long as It doesn't move
I don't want to open It up because I don't know what I'm doing and that can be Incredibly dangerous
but I also don't want to throw out a CRT to buy a new one because they are no longer being made
godlike thumbnail
1: lower input lag
2: see above
Yeah you can make your PC at home feel like CRT but tournaments will never use PCs and emulation for every setup. Also, when converting output from a wii or GC to HDMI or DP, there will always be some added lag, on top of that, its not as simple as "choosing a monitor with a 1ms response time", as stated in the video LCD/LED monitors dont have a 1ms response time even if theyre advertised that they do. Currently the only OLED monitors on the market are 1440p, which is a bit unnecessary for melee and theyre expensive, a little less than $1000. When there's resonably priced 1080p oled monitors for sale that could be a good first step, but it wont be perfect for tournaments until theres either some excellent analog to hdmi converters (i know theres some that are like $500) or if something like the MISTer can emulate the GC hardware eventually and have native perfect hdmi out
Nice magic
I got myself a collection of good CRTs (Bang Olufsen MX-series) when they were basically given away so I AM that "relative with the basement" (though mine are in the attic) as I foresaw them becoming more scarce. Also got a professional CRT-rejuvenator when I randomly happened upon one on a domestic VG-forum so probably set for my entire life with the ones I've got (pats self on shoulder).
Wonder if, in the future, there will be smaller niche companies remaking CRT-televisions for gamers in mind though. Might be a viable corner of the market (?). Or maybe they need to be produced in such massive numbers that it won't be worth it even if they're easy to make?
Edit: 4:50 Oh snap! That looks amazing. The emulation scene really IS the 8th wonder of the world (and while I love the games screw Nintendo for making it more difficult). Regarding the people who say it "feels better" on CRTs, even though I have them myself AND don't play Melee (I'm a shmup player), you're being extremely silly. As long as the big companies don't care about their old games, and they realistically CAN'T care about every niche little fringe community either, emulation is the obvious choice for the foreseeable future unless you have new companies starting to make CRTs popping up here and there. Learn to love it.
We won’t ever lose crts. We just have so many, and we can still repair and produce more.
I think by the time the CRTs all break, high refresh rate and low response time OLEDs will be cheap and Melee will be in the public domain. We just have to wait till 2096. Guess I'll be like that grandpa in the video, cheering on my grandkids.
No Dolphin will not feel the same as Melee on a CRT. Software emulation will always have lag because the computer running it always has to focus on its own processes first then the emulation, also it has to juggle with the emulated console's processes unlike the original console that can do them at once because it has multiple chips to handle them as oppose to your computer's cpu handeling it all and finally unless Oled gets faster it's also slower than a CRT because CRT's uses a beam of light which is the fastest thing in the universe as oppose to crystals moving in modern displays
Yo can you make shirts out of the thumbnail holyshit
Its interesting how CRT tvs are more advanced in terms of input lag
Still play game with CRT TV because only way play light gun game like Time crisis or any light game
"Get your free TVs"
Came for the nerdy CRT content, stayed for the Goldberg Variations.
Lots of incorrect oversimplifications here.
Even oleds do not have response rates as fast as CRTs. No flat panel has 1ms full pixel transition time, it's all marketing: the true number is much more. Motion blur is still going to be a huge issue for any sample and hold display. Running a 60hz game at higher refresh rates results in reduced motion clarity. BFI can help but it has drawbacks. Running at a non-multiple of 60 (like 144) results in uneven frame pacing.
Short answer is the technology still isn't there yet, even at the high end. It will get there in time, but we still have a ways to go. My money is on microled or electro emissive quantum dot.
I just got a crt monitor to play slippi
what if i started up a new crt factory?
Lets go melee!
and another reason why CRT's are still highly sought after is people like me who still plays DDR (DanceDanceRevolution) with real hardware on a CRT because those are a nightmare to play on modern TVs
I’m a smash player and I can confirm that you can play on a huge new TV. I can see why one would want to use the CRT type.
The eventuality of the crispest way to game going to eventually die damages my soul. And not too many care or even know about how these work or what the difference is
What about upscalers?
This wasn't a 40 in XBR, but yeah its 330lbs, I have one its a back killer
Emulation does not equal piracy, that is a silly misonception that has held on for way too long.
Piracy is illicit duplication of games, Emulation simply means running a game on hardware it wasnt originally intended for.
Yes, the most common application for emulation is to play roms obtained from the seven seas of the internet, but dumping a rom of your own cartridge as a safety copy is perfectly legal, as is using that rom on an emulator.
Saying that though, most competetive communities i can think of would prefer playing on original hardware with a video converter to modern screens for the sake of authenticity, and that isnt exactly difficult to set up either.
may-lay
Wait, couldnt you afford that little montage😭
I won't put it pass the melee community to become expert repairmen for CRTs
this video needed a crt destruction content warning/trigger warning :(
Why don't other competitive scenes try to run their games on CRTs then?
I guess with Melee you're significantly actionable more than most other games so every frame really counts
@@SSJPENGUIN Because older fighting games that would be suitable for crts people use modern ports of them because running real arcade hardware is hard. Melee just requires a disc and a gamecube
MvC2, Super Turbo, and 3rd Strike are all still played competitively on CRTs, as seen at EVO this year.
@@DingoYabuki I was talking about other scenes. If they are this accurate why arent't CS, valorant, league, cod, Fortnite, etc. pros using them? We know they love their frames and being able maybe see an enemy a frame early would be a huge advantage not to mention if it really is more fluid it would help connect them to them game and make their flicks and aiming better or something
My suspicion is that they'll just start mass production of the tvs. Just because it's the melee community, probably NINTENDO's second most hated group besides pirates, the fact they still exist besides that shows they're dedication to the game.
If there’s enough demand someone will make new crt tvs.
8:51 aiden jumpscare
2:13 Did u mean LCDs on the high end?>
Because donkey Kong told them to
As far as I can tell after trying to explain/demonstrate to all my friends... you don't really notice the input lag of LCD's/Plasma's unless you grew up playing games on a CRT TV. To me, the lag on anything other than a CRT is immediately noticeable and unacceptable... but if all you've ever gamed on are High definition TV's, you're just so used to it that you've adapted.
I mean, Plasma does look better than CRT, with an even more beautiful motion quality. I even prefer them to OLED in some ways. Still, input delay kills it for competitive gaming. And... they are long out of production as well.
As a Melee player, I wholeheartedly believe the compeitive scene will reverse engineer and recreate CRTs in the next 100 years like we have with Phob Controllers and Goomwaves.
Remake the game, problem solved. 🤷♂️ The perfect opportunity to rebalance the game, remove the need for CRT's, and breathe new life into the scene. Just reskin the characters to something original to avoid copyright infringement and there ya go.
But, of course, it's the whole "change" thing that would instantly piss off the group of people who are still playing a decades old game. 🙄
I kind of want melee remade for the switch, not because melee is a bad game, but because of convenience and so i can have both my favorite games on the switch, melee and ultimate, but its impossible.
Honestly, I just don't like CRTS not only due to not being available but also being expensive on top of that. Oh yeah, I totally don't mind spending over a thousand just to get into a game, the main factor being a fucking CRT which is about over 500. No issue.
Brainlet take
you want a random group of developers and artists to decompile melee, and THEN make a new game for free? and then people would switch to that game, instead of playing the game that they've already been playing and the community has built its infrastructure around?
rebalancing melee would be, at best, mostly ignored, and at worst, very controversial. in the latter case, it would make decades of guides and resources obsolete for no reason. who is in charge of rebalancing the game? why would the community care?
melee has thriving local scenes on multiple continents and great viewership... we dont need to breathe "new life" into the scene. what would remaking melee cause besides controversy?
feel free to argue, but this idea is really stupid and it wouldn't actually do anything good. we could also just use, you know, monitors? if access to CRTs is that big of a deal... like some tournament series already run.
@@lapplandkun9273 you can play melee on damn near any computer for free
Just change the tubes in the crt
crt supremacy.
“CRTs have surprisingly great color”
yeah this guy has never seen the average CRT at a melee tournament
Y'know, with how extremely prevalent gaming monitors for pcs are, why don't they make special gaming tv's?
Monitors are great, they can look better and have less lag than CRTs now, but the difference in how they create the picture (scanlines versus refreshing the whole screen) means they just feel different
what're them OLEDS going for these days?
Less than CRTs
I remember my mom telling me to throw away my heavy ass CRT. If I had known how valuable this is, she would have had me keep that mf for 20 more years so we could sell it and get rich off of it. Damn it.