2:33:37 Platoon explaining the issue that criticizing writers is fair play. 2:36:46 Lofti attempting to paraphrase what Cheo is saying. 2:37:10 Jedi Brooks making a good point. 2:37:41 Platoon giving an example. 2:39:12 Lofti makes a good point. 2:41:32 Jedi Brooks asks Cheo a very good question. ( It is never answered clearly or concisely) 2:43:00 Fantastic question by Jedi Brooks. ( Cheo deflects once again) 2:45:12 Cheo Hodari Coker( to paraphrase, you don’t know whether a movie is good or bad when you’re in the process of making it) 2:46:47 Jedi Brooks 💥
Fair play for Cheo sharing his perspective. I get what he is saying, not everyone choses their director and it's having cooks and one pot. One thinks they need to lighten the mood with a joke and the other four do the same so it's just bombarded without them knowing until the end result. TLDR they need to reduce the amount of writers and have them communicate more
I'm very happily surprised to see this up so soon. I never expected Cheo Hodari Coker to join partway through and it turned out better than I expected.
@@rogerborg"Eat the trash, I don't care, I got paid". Yep, sounds like a perfect reason everything is so crap. Its 'so hard' yet quality isn't even remotely a concern and it's just a bunch of garbage people bragging about the concept that they made something regardless of what it is. People who wear their job title like a badge no matter how bad they are at their job because legendary people also once held the same title.
That interview was fucking horrible. Coker is such a pathetic person who cant answer a simple fucking question. He has to talk around the point and dodge, dodge, dodge constantly. So fucking pathetic.
I enjoyed the gentleman’s writing perspective. I am actually also a scriptwriter. I’ve finished Warsaw Film School. However, after seeing how the industry works and that is never been able to put my ideas and my writing on the screen, I decided to change career paths. Also, a question: so to be credited - how much % of your work has to stay? That is an easy way to decide the degree of responsibility. Plus, there’s an easy and objective way to judge - how much does the movie make money. If it failed - that means it wasn’t good and EVERYONE involved in decision making is to and should be blamed.
so what did we learn: - hollywood writers are just like battered housewives happily returning to their abusers. right. - nobody cares about the craft it's just: get your name on projects. every credit makes you a legend regardless of the actual quality of the script. no pride in your own work. shame, really. - no accountabilty for bad scripts whatsoever. apparently everything just gets "twisted" by other people/factors or "the process". - also his opinion on JJ Abrams made me chuckle so hard. - some points I can agree with but there was a lot of hardcore deflection. so this basically confirmed why I have so little respect for the majority of writers.
Indeed, it was extremely revealing about Hollywood attitudes and priorities: clawing your way to the top of the heap is all that matters, irrespective of how you get there, and even if it's a pile of stinking ordure.
Basically, when the work is good everyone wants credit, when it's bad no one wants credit. Why were writers on strike for better paychecks, when they apparently do nothing in a movie or show?
I think his point is that it is hard to know who is responsible for bad writing, because a director or another writer could change things, or maybe the dialogue didn't work because of a poor delivery. There are probably a lot of things that sound good on paper, but don't work in the film. A director should correct those.
I thought it was very brave of Cheo to come on as he had no idea who he was going to meet. Great stream guys. (i want to watch Madame Web after hearing you talk about it. lol)
"im still trying to answer the question" then answer it...i guess we cant criticize since we dont know the process that went into crafting his answer, what he had for breakfast this morning, his first crush, the middle name of his first parrot. These are all important things that we just cant know. Also what is the point of the WGA if these writers apparently cannot defend their works from being ripped apart without being blacklisted? This guy makes arguments as if these writers do not PUBLICLY defend their work and tell us we are bigoted for not liking it. They are defending their work and the results of these movies. He is acting as if they are not and that is truly a terrible way to argue. Kudos to the panel for putting up with that shit.
If i was peter parker i think id be a lil upset i got bit by a dumb spider that only gave me sticky hands, super strength, and spider sense, but everyone else who got powers from a spider got that plus other cool shit like miles and her
Here’s the pros and cons of Cheo joining the show partway through. Pro: He’s in the industry and did come on the stream to have a discussion with everyone. So that’s cool. Con: I understand he’s in the industry, but he was defending the industry too much and not holding the writers accountable. The writers are professionals. They get paid for their work, but that also means the writers are there to be criticized.
He was kind annoying to be honest. Always deflecting the questions, absolutely refused to hold writers accountable for bad work. Writers fought for better paychecks, so they better show good work for the extra money they will be earning, and not continue to write sludge like they have been doing lately.
Bro he cant answer a fucking yes or no question. He has to dodge, deflect, and talk for 10 min about entirely unrelated shit to avoid letting anyone hurt his ego
Cleo Hodari Coker: Ahh if you guys knew, oh sweet Jesus, if only you knew how hard it is to get into film. OH IF ONLY YOU PLEBIANS KNEW MY STRUGGLE! Film is so hard, so, so hard. :(
Cheo Hodari Coker: "It wasn't poor writing, it was decisions that were made that didn't work..." Oh, the choice which the writer made in his story didn't work. What a shame. He should find a four leaf clover, perhaps he'll luck into the right decisions. Or maybe he should just make better decisions.
In defense of Cheo: he probably knows a scriptwriter who turned in a good script that some producer's second cousin rewrote, another producer's spouse's best friend rewrote, and was then polished by someone else so that, although the original writer was credited, the final version contained only 20% of the original work (and then the directors & actors improvised some lines). And, while that specific trainwreck only happened once that he directly knows of, Cheo's heard it's happened to others, and some level of mangling happens to every scriptwriter he's talked to. It's loyalty to his brothers & sisters, and dammit, if no one else will speak for them, he'll stand up.
I was very surprised / disappointed when Cottonmouth was killed, but I generally remember really enjoying the first season of Luke Cage, and enjoyed the second season more (although I confess it’s been so long since I’ve seen it I can’t recall why). But I do know this: I was very distraught over its cancellation, because I thought the street-level hero angle would be so excellent post-Endgame. Edit: I need to listen to the whole video. I hear much I’d the MW recap live, but then had to bail out.
3:54:56 - Fun fact: C3PO said, "The odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field are approximately 3,720 to 1!" Those are the odds *of* successfully doing it, not the odds *against!* So, it should be a breeze!
I think that the simplest compromise is to blame everyone involved in the production if the production is objectively bad. That way we don't unfairly blame the writers, actors, director or producer or lineman, effects artists, ect. EVERYONE is at fault for a garbage movie.
But that doesn't work either. You can pick out standout performances or elements that are competent. And not everyone holds the same responsibility for a production. The purpose of a chain of command is that the people at the top get the glory and the shame. The head writer gets flak because they allowed themselves to be saddled with a team of writer interns that they let run wild. If the director can't find a competent cameraman and the camera work is garbage that's on them for continuing.
Jedi Brooks: "But we know specifically that Rian had full control, can we blame Ryan?" Cheo: "But right, but see..this is the case with that where..he's subverting certain things and..." That's funny. Jedi asked a yes or no question, but the response is so long! I wonder why~
Ok but, is there any proof that Jedi Brooks is NOT a real Jedi tho? I believe in the principle of Jedi until proven muggle. Or maybe the real Jedi are the friends we made along the way.
I get what the guy is saying , we don't know precisely what happened between the movie getting made and coming out. But then what are people supposed to do. Everytime a "bad" movie comes out reviewers should say " well it was really bad but we dont know what happened so we cant actually criticize it. He cant even bring himself to say yes rian Johnson is to blame for tlj
2:23:52 Cheo Hodari Coker Best, Shill, in the Universe, Probably? Judge for yourself whether what is being said is worth listening to. You have been forewarned. 😊
2:04:30 it feels very similar bc is just saline, but it sounds like a dry joke. Edit: compared to all the other things that are thicker and more viscous.
regarding taking risks. Look at a movie like M.A.S.H. The studio gave these guys 3 million dollars. And the movie raked in over 80 million and became a cult classic. A TV-show was created that ran for 11 seasons.
The idea of using athletes is way more apt than Cheo thinks. It just doesn't support his argument. It's a syllogistic fallacy. His argument supports the exact opposite of the actual outcome. If they want something they love to be viewed better, leaving for a different studio makes perfect sense.
Precisely. And if you're really as good as you believe, you'll be able to secure that transfer and name your price. Perhaps it highlights a problem that we're already aware of: that writers and directors are now _cast_ by Studios, not employed on merit.
@rogerborg He even used the Panthers. Who have had some great players, but were absolutely wasted on staying with the Panthers. Christian McCafferty is doing wildly better in the hands of a more capable team.
Except that there are only so many studios looking for a writer at any given time. Saying "I quit" when they don't respect your work is nice and all, when you don't have to worry about mortgage/rent and feeding your kids. Other people need somewhat stable work.
@slaapt Then dont write for a studio. That seems like the most obvious answer. Write for an editorial. Learn to story board and write for a comic. Write a book. Write poetry. Start a patreon and write fan fiction. All of those are real things people do. No job existed prior to people having skills to perform them. People make jobs.
@@bluicarys732 Uh-huh. Because getting a book deal in is easy and comics sell like crazy at the moment. The book-market online with patreon is also not highly competitive at all. They can get a decent pay check writing for the studio. They feed and house their family, and they move on. Most people do jobs they don't particularly love but, you know, tolerate.
I think i know why mr evil has a spider suit for no reason. In the original script there were going to be references to spiderman and Ezekiels plan was to try and kill baby peter Parker so he can be the only spider man person thing. Hence the spider suit, but the rumor was they set the movie in the wrong year so they had to remove the spiderman references or something like that lol
considering the dancing around the names in the movie i think Disney is still strangleholding movie rights to Spiderman/Peter Parker. Bit hard to have an assassin plot without at least naming the target.
Cheo has a lot in common with the director x interview with Mr H. Both claim to be “Street” and hip hop and ‘bout that beef(cringe), both claim to be maligned, both claim success born out of hubris, both believe that the hustle and playing the game is enough, that getting an idea into production and to the screen is an undertaking we mortals can’t understand, both believe that “the man or the studio” interferes and as such any criticism aimed at them or other writers is not warranted as they are mere cogs, both claim to be nerds and super fans and are happy to name drop and talk minutiae of comics or pop film theory rather than answer questions directly and both like to laud their achievements and professional accomplishments as badges of honour that give them the right to be industry know it alls and better critics. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Gotta love these kinds of people. Cant answer a straight question. Cant give any coherent explanation/defense/reasoning of their position. Try their best not to let the other people talk. Just keeps spouting random incoherent and unrelated bullshit to consfuse and deflect everyone. Doesnt seem to even be listening to the other people bringing up great points and reasoning. Eventually just devolves into insults and playing the victim. Pretentious is hands down the word for this guy.
It's a moot point anyway, Matt Sazama is always paired with Burk Sharpless. Both are a team and have worked on all six failures together. So that's two writers that have failed, not just one.
They keep giving me ideas for spoof shorts: now I'm thinking of a story with obvious plot beats, but a producer keeps shouting "stop! I don't think the audience will get it." After which he writes blatant exposition on a post-it note, and sticks it to the camera lens. By the end, the notes are the only visible thing, but dialogue is still audible.
These comments are hilarious. I dare someone else to walk into a conversation, midstream and engage with five people on a movie they didn't even write and emerge unscathed. I had fun and would definitely do it again.
Thank you very much for coming on. I was thinking the football analogy myself. On one level, I can acknowledge that I could never play in the NFL and everyone out there on the field is immensely better at it than I will ever be. On the other hand, I’m still going to, especially because it’s presented for public view, critique it.
And you did answer the questions. "When would you blame a writer?" "When they are the writer-director." Seems like a valid answer to me. The same goes for (paraphrased): "they come back because they have mortgages." I disagree with you on some takes, agree with you on some others, but generally acknowledge you were there acting in good faith and that is enough. Better to disagree in good faith, than to not have a discussion at all.
The guy kept making the same excuses... "We don't know the decisions that were made" That's not a valid answer he kept coming up with lame excuses imo Craig mason , people said he was shit until he did something good....yea that's how it works how is that an argument against criticizing writers, if anything that supports the panels point, I'll admit though that he was chill and seemed bit more understanding near the end which was good
I'll also say while I did get aggravated with how he was answering some things I understood some of what he was saying and listening to him talk did make me want to go and actually watch Luke Cage which I never did
I had an interaction with joe russo ( not that one) on Twitter. I said i hated the argument that because people work hard on movies we shouldn't criticize them. We know people work hard but a shit movie is still shit, guess what his mature movie maker response was " And we hate you" Those are the kind of people defending this shit
Man, that was painful to listen to. The moving of goalposts at every step of the conversation. You can criticize writers, except they're protected by a morass of unknowns so you can never definitively say they alone were responsible for anything ergo you can't say anything. Even if you can prove a writer definitely wrote something the studio approved it so you still can't say their writing was bad because even in a vacuum of talking about writing devoid of human attachment that it was greenlit at all means it... wasn't bad... somehow? By the same token as above a writer getting a job on a movie means they are de facto good because if they weren't they wouldn't be there. When we know this whole thing is a dumb social club where nepotism and politics vastly exceeds merit as a criteria for why people get jobs. Which he even dances around by tip-toeing around the idea that the guy puts up with the butchery of his works because he's getting paid. Which is a difference in value structures that somehow makes him beyond criticism... somehow. "He tried hard" "He had fun" "From his perspective" So? From the audience and even objective standards he put out garbage, I don't care how hard he worked or how much fun he had or what he thinks of it from his perspective. His subjective view of the process matters not a wit to the end result or criticism thereof. I would bet you $10,000 this guy would not use even the slightest bit of this reasoning if it applied to say, a car that broke down on him. "Making cars is hard" "They had fun making it" "From his perspective he thought he did good, someone else must have screwed something up" "You can't blame anyone because a bunch of people went into making it bad" "You can't blame the entire system either, you need to find exactly who made it bad" Can't complain about your broken vehicle if you've never built a car yourself or don't put yourself in the shoes of the people who didn't make it right to understand how much effort went into making a rolling turd.
Why is it important to know the inside of the industrie to criticque the art. I don't agree with Cheo there. It doesn't matter why the movie is shit. If it is shit, the ones that are responceble for it are at fault. It doesn't matter if they alone at fault or if they only partly at fault but they are at fault and deserve to be critizied.
I think it’s important to know how the industry works to precisely the people in the industry, and no one else. Everyone is being intolerably solipsistic on this matter, but I think those in the industry owe it to the MUCH larger cohort outside of it to understand that, despite their toil, the product is the only relevant detail. At least, it seems reasonable to convince the industry to compromise to a greater degree than for the public to do so. Rian Johnson can try hard and fail constantly, and without exception the same way a dwarf playing volleyball can fail constantly. The public has a right to encourage Rian to STOP MAKING MOVIES just as sports fans have the right to boo the dwarf for costing the team the tournament.
@@realistic_delinquentwell its easy the whole production is at fault if the product is shit. That is until it is cleared up who is at fault but as long as it isn't everybody involved is at fault. To go back to your analogy. The whole team is at fault of losing. They could compensate for the dwarf. The trainer doesn't need to let him play. The dwarf should himself be willing to sit it out if his team wins for it. So all parties are at fault the team lost and its the same with movies. The writers are at fault because the story is shit (ALL WRITERS) the Producer is at fault that it looks shit the actor is at fault that it feels shit and and and. The result is what matters and as long as they don't deliver better results all are shit.
35:04 do you know if they needed X position they could have had Mr. evil complaining kind of under his breath Allah come out to the coast have a few laughs. Go to the jungle in the middle of Peru. Find the super spider…..
this guy really is driving me crazy he truly has no insight into the situation besides explaining the hollywood “behind the seens” shit that everyone already knows and doesnt care about when it comes to writing films. Hes just sticking up for writers because he is one, theres no excuse for movies like madam web at all, everyone on that project shouldnt be allowed to make films that bad its diagusting
I do find it bizarre when people say "Red/Green/Blue/Yellow and Gold/Silver/Crystal are good but everything after that is bad." Even if Black and White didn't exist and that statement was true, we still have FireRed and LeafGreen and HeartGold and SoulSilver, which are functionally the same as the aforementioned games but better in every single way. TLDR: If I want bad takes on Pokemon, I'll stick to watching EFAP.
I asked him a direct question to try understand what he meant. I Didnt insult him and we made peace in the end. If thats qualifies as a serious attitude problem then i dont know what to tell you other than...relax bro
Some people in the comments here are clueless - what did you want Cheo to say? He's not going to bite the hand that feeds him. And neither would you if you were in his position. I find it comical that people expect working writers, producers, directors, etc. to throw studios and their colleagues under the bus. Only someone who's been blackballed by Hollywood or no longer cares about getting work could name names. I give Cheo massive props for coming on and engaging in an actual dialogue. And to compare him to Director X is stupid - Director X is a race baiter looking for attention, Cheo has a track record of success and didn't have to come on for attention. I'm not saying I agreed with all of his points but his point about specifically just blaming writers for a film's ills is valid - it's a case by case basis and there are things that go on behind the scenes that we'll never know about that writers, directors, etc. will generally keep quiet about it if they care to keep working. To speak specifically about Madame Web, it sounds like the entire production was a shit show which ultimately is the fault of the studio. It's unfair to fixate solely upon the writing.
I also thought that he brought up valid points that hyperfixation on the writing during a critique may be a wrong way to approach media deconstruction. Though, let’s be honest, he didn’t argue his points well a lot of the time, but some points still stand, and are correct. It’s not like writers are always the ones who have sole creative control over the movie, especially when it comes to big budget productions. However, there is a an issue with that: how does an outsider judge who responsible for what decision? I think that this conversation went in circles a lot, because, at the end of the day, it will always come to a personal preference and experience. Cheo, as an insider, sees complexities of making movies and shows, and empathizes with various struggles, thus chooses to be reserved in his judgements (also, it won’t be professional for him to throw his colleagues and useful contacts under the bus), but we, as the audience, are free to choose who to blame, even if we are not correct in our assumptions. So either Hollywood chooses transparency (not a chance), or this will always happen. Also, I think the good topic for discussion they have overlooked is that for studios it is very beneficial that critics keep the heat on the writers / directors, instead of dragging studio name through the mud.
@@mrKeyCat You make a good point. I actually agree with the idea that criticism and especially youtube criticism fixates a bit too much on "the writing," at the expense of a more holistic approach. But I strongly disagree with this idea that we shouldn't blame the credited writers. They put their names on it, ergo they are responsible at least in part, I would rather that we apply this to the producers, directors, equally as well.
@@rogerborg But my question is - how can be evidenced without a writer, director, etc. saying "The studio made me do it"? (which they're not going to). We can only possibly deduce this if a movie has multiple reshoots and multiple writers (not working as a team, but as replacements for one another).
He didn't engage in actual dialogue. He ignored nearly everything that was ever said to go on tangents, make personal attacks repeatedly, drop nearly every logical fallacy in the book and run away and make an entirely different point any time he was challenged. He couldn't even answer basic questions simply or directly and contradicted himself at nearly every sentence. He said you can criticize people and then went on lengthy tirades about how you can never actually find the right person to criticize/that person doesn't even exist like the bad result popped out of the aether. Then deflected from that further by saying the criticism doesn't even matter because the dude got paid so it doesn't matter if he produces trash and his name is mud, he keeps getting paid to do it. That's not a defense of anything, that's just saying the guy writes trash, doesn't care he writes trash, and is allowed to continue writing trash so shut up and eat trash. "Just blaming writers for a film's ills is valid" No it's not, because that was never a point anyone on this stream ever made or ever makes. That's a strawman you baked up. The studio is blamed, the director is blamed, I've seen shots taken at the bad sound design sometimes when that messes up. The bad writing is blamed mostly on... the writers. You know the people hired to make that not crap. Nobody blamed the writers for the bad costumes. Nobody blames the writers for Web teleporting into cars, that's the director. They even directly addressed that in the stream itself and you somehow missed that they have loads of criticism to go around. If you're going to say something stupid and inane that nobody said and then hang your hat on it like you made a salient point just save everyone your ignorance and stay quiet, the conversation is clearly well beyond you.
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This guy is dancing around answering the questions
2:33:37 Platoon explaining the issue that criticizing writers is fair play.
2:36:46 Lofti attempting to paraphrase what Cheo is saying.
2:37:10 Jedi Brooks making a good point.
2:37:41 Platoon giving an example.
2:39:12 Lofti makes a good point.
2:41:32 Jedi Brooks asks Cheo a very good question. ( It is never answered clearly or concisely)
2:43:00 Fantastic question by Jedi Brooks. ( Cheo deflects once again)
2:45:12 Cheo Hodari Coker( to paraphrase, you don’t know whether a movie is good or bad when you’re in the process of making it)
2:46:47 Jedi Brooks 💥
Fair play for Cheo sharing his perspective. I get what he is saying, not everyone choses their director and it's having cooks and one pot. One thinks they need to lighten the mood with a joke and the other four do the same so it's just bombarded without them knowing until the end result. TLDR they need to reduce the amount of writers and have them communicate more
Madame Web is clearly one of Platoon's favorite films ever lol. Can't wait for the long form review!
I'm very happily surprised to see this up so soon. I never expected Cheo Hodari Coker to join partway through and it turned out better than I expected.
It was certainly very revealing about Hollywood thoughts and priorities.
@@rogerborg"Eat the trash, I don't care, I got paid". Yep, sounds like a perfect reason everything is so crap. Its 'so hard' yet quality isn't even remotely a concern and it's just a bunch of garbage people bragging about the concept that they made something regardless of what it is. People who wear their job title like a badge no matter how bad they are at their job because legendary people also once held the same title.
That interview was fucking horrible. Coker is such a pathetic person who cant answer a simple fucking question. He has to talk around the point and dodge, dodge, dodge constantly. So fucking pathetic.
I enjoyed the gentleman’s writing perspective. I am actually also a scriptwriter. I’ve finished Warsaw Film School. However, after seeing how the industry works and that is never been able to put my ideas and my writing on the screen, I decided to change career paths.
Also, a question: so to be credited - how much % of your work has to stay? That is an easy way to decide the degree of responsibility. Plus, there’s an easy and objective way to judge - how much does the movie make money. If it failed - that means it wasn’t good and EVERYONE involved in decision making is to and should be blamed.
Cheo and Chris Stuckmann would be best buddies...
so what did we learn:
- hollywood writers are just like battered housewives happily returning to their abusers. right.
- nobody cares about the craft it's just: get your name on projects. every credit makes you a legend regardless of the actual quality of the script. no pride in your own work. shame, really.
- no accountabilty for bad scripts whatsoever. apparently everything just gets "twisted" by other people/factors or "the process".
- also his opinion on JJ Abrams made me chuckle so hard.
- some points I can agree with but there was a lot of hardcore deflection.
so this basically confirmed why I have so little respect for the majority of writers.
Indeed, it was extremely revealing about Hollywood attitudes and priorities: clawing your way to the top of the heap is all that matters, irrespective of how you get there, and even if it's a pile of stinking ordure.
Basically, when the work is good everyone wants credit, when it's bad no one wants credit.
Why were writers on strike for better paychecks, when they apparently do nothing in a movie or show?
Thats pretty much what i took from this unbelievably pathetic interview. This guy is just so unbelievably incompetent.
I think his point is that it is hard to know who is responsible for bad writing, because a director or another writer could change things, or maybe the dialogue didn't work because of a poor delivery.
There are probably a lot of things that sound good on paper, but don't work in the film. A director should correct those.
Great line up, this is _undeniably_ probably the best show in the universe.
I thought it was very brave of Cheo to come on as he had no idea who he was going to meet. Great stream guys. (i want to watch Madame Web after hearing you talk about it. lol)
He's brave alright. Brave and stupid.
After this episode, I no longer wonder how writers say so much in today's movies without actually saying anything
"You don't know the struggles, man!" F me, what a child!😂😂😂
"im still trying to answer the question" then answer it...i guess we cant criticize since we dont know the process that went into crafting his answer, what he had for breakfast this morning, his first crush, the middle name of his first parrot. These are all important things that we just cant know. Also what is the point of the WGA if these writers apparently cannot defend their works from being ripped apart without being blacklisted? This guy makes arguments as if these writers do not PUBLICLY defend their work and tell us we are bigoted for not liking it. They are defending their work and the results of these movies. He is acting as if they are not and that is truly a terrible way to argue. Kudos to the panel for putting up with that shit.
So here's the thing: it takes this guy a whole lot of words to say nothing.
Thanks to all who was on the stream. This was a really good debate, interesting to hear all the perspectives. Wish we could have more of these.
If i was peter parker i think id be a lil upset i got bit by a dumb spider that only gave me sticky hands, super strength, and spider sense, but everyone else who got powers from a spider got that plus other cool shit like miles and her
Here’s the pros and cons of Cheo joining the show partway through.
Pro: He’s in the industry and did come on the stream to have a discussion with everyone. So that’s cool.
Con: I understand he’s in the industry, but he was defending the industry too much and not holding the writers accountable. The writers are professionals. They get paid for their work, but that also means the writers are there to be criticized.
He was kind annoying to be honest. Always deflecting the questions, absolutely refused to hold writers accountable for bad work.
Writers fought for better paychecks, so they better show good work for the extra money they will be earning, and not continue to write sludge like they have been doing lately.
Bro he cant answer a fucking yes or no question. He has to dodge, deflect, and talk for 10 min about entirely unrelated shit to avoid letting anyone hurt his ego
@@dfgbdegbergb7415To be fair, the questions are hard, and a yes or no wouldn't allow him to give his opinion.
This turned delightful after a certain warm up period. My dude should return for a whole episode!
Nah, we've already got Lofti to provide reliably bad takes.
@@rogerborg Poor Lofti.
Cleo Hodari Coker: Ahh if you guys knew, oh sweet Jesus, if only you knew how hard it is to get into film. OH IF ONLY YOU PLEBIANS KNEW MY STRUGGLE! Film is so hard, so, so hard. :(
Madame Web was written by ChatGPT
Probably directed by it too.
Nah, ChatGPT surely would've written a more coherent movie than this. 😂
Cheo Hodari Coker: "It wasn't poor writing, it was decisions that were made that didn't work..."
Oh, the choice which the writer made in his story didn't work. What a shame. He should find a four leaf clover, perhaps he'll luck into the right decisions.
Or maybe he should just make better decisions.
In defense of Cheo: he probably knows a scriptwriter who turned in a good script that some producer's second cousin rewrote, another producer's spouse's best friend rewrote, and was then polished by someone else so that, although the original writer was credited, the final version contained only 20% of the original work (and then the directors & actors improvised some lines). And, while that specific trainwreck only happened once that he directly knows of, Cheo's heard it's happened to others, and some level of mangling happens to every scriptwriter he's talked to. It's loyalty to his brothers & sisters, and dammit, if no one else will speak for them, he'll stand up.
I hope chris stuckman sees this stream and takes some notes from someone who actually works in the industry and how to interact with fans
I was very surprised / disappointed when Cottonmouth was killed, but I generally remember really enjoying the first season of Luke Cage, and enjoyed the second season more (although I confess it’s been so long since I’ve seen it I can’t recall why). But I do know this: I was very distraught over its cancellation, because I thought the street-level hero angle would be so excellent post-Endgame.
Edit: I need to listen to the whole video. I hear much I’d the MW recap live, but then had to bail out.
Luke Cage was certainly better than anything Disney-Marvel has excreted, but it crammed 10 episodes of writing into 26 episodes of runtime.
3:54:56 - Fun fact: C3PO said, "The odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field are approximately 3,720 to 1!" Those are the odds *of* successfully doing it, not the odds *against!* So, it should be a breeze!
I think that the simplest compromise is to blame everyone involved in the production if the production is objectively bad. That way we don't unfairly blame the writers, actors, director or producer or lineman, effects artists, ect. EVERYONE is at fault for a garbage movie.
But that doesn't work either. You can pick out standout performances or elements that are competent. And not everyone holds the same responsibility for a production. The purpose of a chain of command is that the people at the top get the glory and the shame. The head writer gets flak because they allowed themselves to be saddled with a team of writer interns that they let run wild. If the director can't find a competent cameraman and the camera work is garbage that's on them for continuing.
@@chucklebouf5379 As a wise grasshopper once said, "First rule of leadership: everything is your fault."
2:33:00 - Damn, Coker just loves the sound of his own voice...
Jedi Brooks: "But we know specifically that Rian had full control, can we blame Ryan?"
Cheo: "But right, but see..this is the case with that where..he's subverting certain things and..."
That's funny. Jedi asked a yes or no question, but the response is so long!
I wonder why~
Ok but, is there any proof that Jedi Brooks is NOT a real Jedi tho?
I believe in the principle of Jedi until proven muggle.
Or maybe the real Jedi are the friends we made along the way.
He never even finished his training.
I get what the guy is saying , we don't know precisely what happened between the movie getting made and coming out. But then what are people supposed to do. Everytime a "bad" movie comes out reviewers should say " well it was really bad but we dont know what happened so we cant actually criticize it. He cant even bring himself to say yes rian Johnson is to blame for tlj
"Do I get what?" She knew what you said. xD
We meme about peter and aunt may getting younger... Well well well
2:23:52 Cheo Hodari Coker
Best, Shill, in the Universe, Probably?
Judge for yourself whether what is being said is worth listening to.
You have been forewarned. 😊
Shill? Who's paying me?
shills are by definition unpaid@@CheoHodari
@@CheoHodari don't listen to these people 😭 TH-cam comments are always unhinged
@@Loftipixels Your subjective opinion Lofti doesn’t negate the objective comments. 😂
@@LoftipixelsAlways, except for your comments, and ones that you agree with.
2:04:30 it feels very similar bc is just saline, but it sounds like a dry joke. Edit: compared to all the other things that are thicker and more viscous.
This is probably the best show in the universe
regarding taking risks. Look at a movie like M.A.S.H. The studio gave these guys 3 million dollars. And the movie raked in over 80 million and became a cult classic. A TV-show was created that ran for 11 seasons.
The idea of using athletes is way more apt than Cheo thinks. It just doesn't support his argument. It's a syllogistic fallacy. His argument supports the exact opposite of the actual outcome. If they want something they love to be viewed better, leaving for a different studio makes perfect sense.
Precisely. And if you're really as good as you believe, you'll be able to secure that transfer and name your price.
Perhaps it highlights a problem that we're already aware of: that writers and directors are now _cast_ by Studios, not employed on merit.
@rogerborg He even used the Panthers. Who have had some great players, but were absolutely wasted on staying with the Panthers. Christian McCafferty is doing wildly better in the hands of a more capable team.
Except that there are only so many studios looking for a writer at any given time. Saying "I quit" when they don't respect your work is nice and all, when you don't have to worry about mortgage/rent and feeding your kids.
Other people need somewhat stable work.
@slaapt Then dont write for a studio. That seems like the most obvious answer. Write for an editorial. Learn to story board and write for a comic. Write a book. Write poetry. Start a patreon and write fan fiction. All of those are real things people do. No job existed prior to people having skills to perform them. People make jobs.
@@bluicarys732 Uh-huh. Because getting a book deal in is easy and comics sell like crazy at the moment. The book-market online with patreon is also not highly competitive at all.
They can get a decent pay check writing for the studio. They feed and house their family, and they move on. Most people do jobs they don't particularly love but, you know, tolerate.
Disappointed how no one pointed out to Cheo how the Bob Marley would have been better characterised by Benedict Cumberbatch. Oh well…
Don't forget the director was also an executive producer
I think i know why mr evil has a spider suit for no reason. In the original script there were going to be references to spiderman and Ezekiels plan was to try and kill baby peter Parker so he can be the only spider man person thing. Hence the spider suit, but the rumor was they set the movie in the wrong year so they had to remove the spiderman references or something like that lol
considering the dancing around the names in the movie i think Disney is still strangleholding movie rights to Spiderman/Peter Parker. Bit hard to have an assassin plot without at least naming the target.
Cheo has a lot in common with the director x interview with Mr H. Both claim to be “Street” and hip hop and ‘bout that beef(cringe), both claim to be maligned, both claim success born out of hubris, both believe that the hustle and playing the game is enough, that getting an idea into production and to the screen is an undertaking we mortals can’t understand, both believe that “the man or the studio” interferes and as such any criticism aimed at them or other writers is not warranted as they are mere cogs, both claim to be nerds and super fans and are happy to name drop and talk minutiae of comics or pop film theory rather than answer questions directly and both like to laud their achievements and professional accomplishments as badges of honour that give them the right to be industry know it alls and better critics.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
I blame Lofti Pixels. He’s rubbing off on people at an alarming rate . 😂
There are men who will plant trees under whose shade they will not sit. These are not those men.
Gotta love these kinds of people. Cant answer a straight question. Cant give any coherent explanation/defense/reasoning of their position. Try their best not to let the other people talk. Just keeps spouting random incoherent and unrelated bullshit to consfuse and deflect everyone. Doesnt seem to even be listening to the other people bringing up great points and reasoning. Eventually just devolves into insults and playing the victim.
Pretentious is hands down the word for this guy.
It's a moot point anyway, Matt Sazama is always paired with Burk Sharpless. Both are a team and have worked on all six failures together. So that's two writers that have failed, not just one.
They keep giving me ideas for spoof shorts: now I'm thinking of a story with obvious plot beats, but a producer keeps shouting "stop! I don't think the audience will get it." After which he writes blatant exposition on a post-it note, and sticks it to the camera lens. By the end, the notes are the only visible thing, but dialogue is still audible.
Just wow.... Hell of a show!
sony: "what if we made Groundhog Day but bad, with less superpowers and charm?" ._.
These comments are hilarious. I dare someone else to walk into a conversation, midstream and engage with five people on a movie they didn't even write and emerge unscathed. I had fun and would definitely do it again.
Stop whining bro.
Thanks for engaging like this. It was very informative and revealing about Hollywood thinking and priorities.
Thank you very much for coming on. I was thinking the football analogy myself.
On one level, I can acknowledge that I could never play in the NFL and everyone out there on the field is immensely better at it than I will ever be.
On the other hand, I’m still going to, especially because it’s presented for public view, critique it.
And you did answer the questions.
"When would you blame a writer?"
"When they are the writer-director."
Seems like a valid answer to me.
The same goes for (paraphrased): "they come back because they have mortgages."
I disagree with you on some takes, agree with you on some others, but generally acknowledge you were there acting in good faith and that is enough. Better to disagree in good faith, than to not have a discussion at all.
Good on you for coming on, thanks!
“I’m Cheo Hodari the clown 🤡”
Some people on the panel need to learn a little more diplomacy in asking questions. The session with Chemo was not well run.
I think Platoon had the right idea, treating Cheo’s time as donated, whereas Brooks treated Cheo’s time as owed.
The guy kept making the same excuses...
"We don't know the decisions that were made"
That's not a valid answer he kept coming up with lame excuses imo
Craig mason , people said he was shit until he did something good....yea that's how it works how is that an argument against criticizing writers, if anything that supports the panels point, I'll admit though that he was chill and seemed bit more understanding near the end which was good
I'll also say while I did get aggravated with how he was answering some things I understood some of what he was saying and listening to him talk did make me want to go and actually watch Luke Cage which I never did
I had an interaction with joe russo ( not that one) on Twitter.
I said i hated the argument that because people work hard on movies we shouldn't criticize them. We know people work hard but a shit movie is still shit, guess what his mature movie maker response was
" And we hate you"
Those are the kind of people defending this shit
Man, that was painful to listen to. The moving of goalposts at every step of the conversation.
You can criticize writers, except they're protected by a morass of unknowns so you can never definitively say they alone were responsible for anything ergo you can't say anything.
Even if you can prove a writer definitely wrote something the studio approved it so you still can't say their writing was bad because even in a vacuum of talking about writing devoid of human attachment that it was greenlit at all means it... wasn't bad... somehow?
By the same token as above a writer getting a job on a movie means they are de facto good because if they weren't they wouldn't be there. When we know this whole thing is a dumb social club where nepotism and politics vastly exceeds merit as a criteria for why people get jobs.
Which he even dances around by tip-toeing around the idea that the guy puts up with the butchery of his works because he's getting paid. Which is a difference in value structures that somehow makes him beyond criticism... somehow.
"He tried hard"
"He had fun"
"From his perspective"
So? From the audience and even objective standards he put out garbage, I don't care how hard he worked or how much fun he had or what he thinks of it from his perspective. His subjective view of the process matters not a wit to the end result or criticism thereof.
I would bet you $10,000 this guy would not use even the slightest bit of this reasoning if it applied to say, a car that broke down on him.
"Making cars is hard"
"They had fun making it"
"From his perspective he thought he did good, someone else must have screwed something up"
"You can't blame anyone because a bunch of people went into making it bad"
"You can't blame the entire system either, you need to find exactly who made it bad"
Can't complain about your broken vehicle if you've never built a car yourself or don't put yourself in the shoes of the people who didn't make it right to understand how much effort went into making a rolling turd.
Please add timestamps
Why is it important to know the inside of the industrie to criticque the art. I don't agree with Cheo there. It doesn't matter why the movie is shit. If it is shit, the ones that are responceble for it are at fault. It doesn't matter if they alone at fault or if they only partly at fault but they are at fault and deserve to be critizied.
I think it’s important to know how the industry works to precisely the people in the industry, and no one else.
Everyone is being intolerably solipsistic on this matter, but I think those in the industry owe it to the MUCH larger cohort outside of it to understand that, despite their toil, the product is the only relevant detail. At least, it seems reasonable to convince the industry to compromise to a greater degree than for the public to do so.
Rian Johnson can try hard and fail constantly, and without exception the same way a dwarf playing volleyball can fail constantly. The public has a right to encourage Rian to STOP MAKING MOVIES just as sports fans have the right to boo the dwarf for costing the team the tournament.
@@realistic_delinquentwell its easy the whole production is at fault if the product is shit. That is until it is cleared up who is at fault but as long as it isn't everybody involved is at fault. To go back to your analogy. The whole team is at fault of losing. They could compensate for the dwarf. The trainer doesn't need to let him play. The dwarf should himself be willing to sit it out if his team wins for it. So all parties are at fault the team lost and its the same with movies. The writers are at fault because the story is shit (ALL WRITERS) the Producer is at fault that it looks shit the actor is at fault that it feels shit and and and. The result is what matters and as long as they don't deliver better results all are shit.
35:04 do you know if they needed X position they could have had Mr. evil complaining kind of under his breath Allah come out to the coast have a few laughs.
Go to the jungle in the middle of Peru. Find the super spider…..
I think I just lost 15% of my brain cells from listening to the plot breakdown :(
The guy who joined ruined the stream director x vibes benzino cringe shit.
this guy really is driving me crazy he truly has no insight into the situation besides explaining the hollywood “behind the seens” shit that everyone already knows and doesnt care about when it comes to writing films. Hes just sticking up for writers because he is one, theres no excuse for movies like madam web at all, everyone on that project shouldnt be allowed to make films that bad its diagusting
Bunch of pokepurists. Everyone knows HGSS are the best pokemon games.
I do find it bizarre when people say "Red/Green/Blue/Yellow and Gold/Silver/Crystal are good but everything after that is bad." Even if Black and White didn't exist and that statement was true, we still have FireRed and LeafGreen and HeartGold and SoulSilver, which are functionally the same as the aforementioned games but better in every single way.
TLDR: If I want bad takes on Pokemon, I'll stick to watching EFAP.
Jedi has a serious attitude problem like bro relax 😭😭😭
I asked him a direct question to try understand what he meant. I Didnt insult him and we made peace in the end. If thats qualifies as a serious attitude problem then i dont know what to tell you other than...relax bro
@@jedibrooks7235 just felt like you were being a little rude but hey just my opinion. Loved the discussion regardless fan of all you guys. 🙏🏾
"I will have the blonde one"
Some people in the comments here are clueless - what did you want Cheo to say? He's not going to bite the hand that feeds him. And neither would you if you were in his position. I find it comical that people expect working writers, producers, directors, etc. to throw studios and their colleagues under the bus. Only someone who's been blackballed by Hollywood or no longer cares about getting work could name names. I give Cheo massive props for coming on and engaging in an actual dialogue. And to compare him to Director X is stupid - Director X is a race baiter looking for attention, Cheo has a track record of success and didn't have to come on for attention. I'm not saying I agreed with all of his points but his point about specifically just blaming writers for a film's ills is valid - it's a case by case basis and there are things that go on behind the scenes that we'll never know about that writers, directors, etc. will generally keep quiet about it if they care to keep working. To speak specifically about Madame Web, it sounds like the entire production was a shit show which ultimately is the fault of the studio. It's unfair to fixate solely upon the writing.
I also thought that he brought up valid points that hyperfixation on the writing during a critique may be a wrong way to approach media deconstruction. Though, let’s be honest, he didn’t argue his points well a lot of the time, but some points still stand, and are correct. It’s not like writers are always the ones who have sole creative control over the movie, especially when it comes to big budget productions.
However, there is a an issue with that: how does an outsider judge who responsible for what decision?
I think that this conversation went in circles a lot, because, at the end of the day, it will always come to a personal preference and experience. Cheo, as an insider, sees complexities of making movies and shows, and empathizes with various struggles, thus chooses to be reserved in his judgements (also, it won’t be professional for him to throw his colleagues and useful contacts under the bus), but we, as the audience, are free to choose who to blame, even if we are not correct in our assumptions. So either Hollywood chooses transparency (not a chance), or this will always happen.
Also, I think the good topic for discussion they have overlooked is that for studios it is very beneficial that critics keep the heat on the writers / directors, instead of dragging studio name through the mud.
@@mrKeyCat
You make a good point. I actually agree with the idea that criticism and especially youtube criticism fixates a bit too much on "the writing," at the expense of a more holistic approach.
But I strongly disagree with this idea that we shouldn't blame the credited writers. They put their names on it, ergo they are responsible at least in part, I would rather that we apply this to the producers, directors, equally as well.
Bad writing is both _necessary and sufficient_ to produce a Madame Web. It's the "bigger boys made me do it" argument that needs evidenced.
@@rogerborg But my question is - how can be evidenced without a writer, director, etc. saying "The studio made me do it"? (which they're not going to). We can only possibly deduce this if a movie has multiple reshoots and multiple writers (not working as a team, but as replacements for one another).
He didn't engage in actual dialogue. He ignored nearly everything that was ever said to go on tangents, make personal attacks repeatedly, drop nearly every logical fallacy in the book and run away and make an entirely different point any time he was challenged. He couldn't even answer basic questions simply or directly and contradicted himself at nearly every sentence. He said you can criticize people and then went on lengthy tirades about how you can never actually find the right person to criticize/that person doesn't even exist like the bad result popped out of the aether. Then deflected from that further by saying the criticism doesn't even matter because the dude got paid so it doesn't matter if he produces trash and his name is mud, he keeps getting paid to do it.
That's not a defense of anything, that's just saying the guy writes trash, doesn't care he writes trash, and is allowed to continue writing trash so shut up and eat trash.
"Just blaming writers for a film's ills is valid" No it's not, because that was never a point anyone on this stream ever made or ever makes. That's a strawman you baked up. The studio is blamed, the director is blamed, I've seen shots taken at the bad sound design sometimes when that messes up. The bad writing is blamed mostly on... the writers. You know the people hired to make that not crap. Nobody blamed the writers for the bad costumes. Nobody blames the writers for Web teleporting into cars, that's the director.
They even directly addressed that in the stream itself and you somehow missed that they have loads of criticism to go around. If you're going to say something stupid and inane that nobody said and then hang your hat on it like you made a salient point just save everyone your ignorance and stay quiet, the conversation is clearly well beyond you.