@@seandabest4329 Feel free to correct me, but I recall the saying being " *Couldn't* word it any better ", though the change might be on purpose. In which case, I'm not really sure what Sam's intention is?
@@seandabest4329 Pardon; erare humanum est. Though I might add: non contextual written word isn't known for its great properties of conveying fine nuanced subtleties, thus having quite a degree of freedom regarding its interpretations.
What was the point of giving the character of The Master a satisfying redemption arc as Missy, only to bring him back a year later acting like an evil hairdresser?
I agree though in relation to time it's makes sense since he Could be from anywhere but in relation to the episode timeline It was just bad. The missy redemption was such a breath of fresh air and it Was really just shat on.
There's an audio story where we learn Missy will regenerate into the Luminat (the good version of the Master, like the Valeyard is the evil of the doctor). Missy, before her redemption arc, meets the Luminat and kills her. Probably the Luminat became the O Master.
Rose: is scared at the thought she travels with an alien she just met. They eventually fall in love. Martha: Falls in love with the Doctor, walks around the Earth for 1 year, saves the galaxy and leaves him because she learned she was strong enough on her own and could move on. Donna: Secretary that yells at everyone, that no one loves. Saves multiple lives and the universe. Amy: Grew up unable to detach her mind from the Doctor, runs away from her wedding to travel with him. She eventually leaves the Doctor to die with her husband. Ryan, Yaz and Graham: Meet the Doctor. Become their ‘fam’ 15 min later. No progression so far.
Donna’s views changed across Fires of Pompeii and Planet of the Ood. She stopped Davros almost singlehandedly in Journey’s End and prevented The Trickster from taking over in Turn Left
@@captainsludgeslinger3272 For Clara: Always wanted to travel, but never had the opportunity due to her care for the Maitland family. Has a low-key development from scared to brave and finds a more profound friendship with 12. She ends up dying trying recklessly to be like the Doctor, which differs from her introduction(s) in Season 7.
Graham seems pretty clear. After his wife’s (gf?) death in the first episode and his history of cancer, he’s trying to move on and live life to the fullest. Yaz seems more like she’s seeking to escape her family and all the expectations on her. To live an exciting life of adventure vs giving traffic tickets and the like. Ryan feels the weakest in that he’s just along for the ride too with Graham after that ep 1 death.
@@amandalogan89 Graham is imo the only one who have a valid reason to go with the Doctor, but the never dug into it. Yaz wanted to be a policewoman, but she's never at her damn job, and does nothing during the episodes. And I must agree with you about Ryan.
12: Never be cruel, never be cowardly. 13: Traps spiders to let them suffocate and, when a friend confides to her about his fear of getting cancer again, uses a flimsy excuse of being "socially awkward" to get out of the conversation.
I will never forgive the awkward cancer scene. She feels the most unlike the doctor here, the doctor always comforted people around them no matter WHAT. Just such bad writing ughhhhh
It’s just like, “I know you’ve had a serious and traumatic experience, but I’m not going to do anything because not being good at social interaction is supposed to be one of my defining personality traits lol”
The writing is poor and I wouldn't like any other doctors saying that 12 was known for being cold, rude and extremely socially awkward, but that never stopped him from comforting Clara at her lowest. Its understandable not to know what to say in a situation, but it is cold to use it as an excuse not to try to help someone in their most dire time of need. I also didn't like the acting in that particular scene either Jodie looked more annoyed , irritated rather than genuinely concerned/ sad for her friend. It gave off the wrong feeling.
@@mahlicaajaib5231 Right? Even 12 would have at least held his hand or something, maybe even given him a hug. If the continuity was on point 13 could have given him an awkward hug and said that she still didn't think she was a hugging person, or lamented her lack of notecards for the situation.
@@krchecotah I agree even if it was something small like a glance at a card or a tight squeeze of the hand. Would have been a little bit better than what we got. Because we'd have seen she cared and at least tried to do something.
Have liked it since smith left it’s gone down hill so fast, doesn’t feel like doctor who anymore. I tried with capaldi he was just mean and Whittaker is just cringey.
I think at the core of the dissatisfaction of the Timeless Child reveal is that it’s so obvious. Like reading a children’s book and finding out the main character is the chosen one. Chibnall could’ve subverted the trope in so many different ways. Honestly when I learnt that the title of the episode was “The Timeless Children” I immediately thought that both the Doctor and the Master were Timeless Children, mirroring the immortals in Can You Hear Me, forgetting who they were but playing some game of cat and mouse across the universe with a thousand planets as collateral damage. The twist then being that in past lifetimes it was the Doctor who was sometimes the ‘evil’ one, and the Master the ‘Saviour’ until the audience isn’t really sure which is which. Does the Doctor really stop the Master because they want to save the Earth or because they just enjoy their games of gods and mortals? Another line of thinking: the Timeless Child could’ve been some separate other entity and the entire episode just focused on the Doctor and the Master being complicit in its torture by using stolen regenerations. This would open doors to the Doctor regretting how their new regeneration cycle came to be. TLDR: the Doctor being the Timeless Child was the laziest way this could’ve been wrapped up and that makes a lot of people, myself included, very angry. I really hope we get some form of retcon sooner or later.
I absolutely love your first idea. That would have been a fantastic episode. It doesn't create a diversion in the doctor's character. The doctor has killed and well I tip my hat to you.
There's one very simple retcon that's equally obvious and lazy but after the shitshow Chibnall created it's a necessary evil to save the entire storyline; the Master lied.
Ifan Dafydd well using the idea that the master lied could lead to some interesting character development with the doctor then undecided on what to believe anymore which could create some quite good character arcs but who knows 🤷♂️
Exactly! The girl in episode praxeus watches her friend burst in front of her showing barely any emotion, then minutes later asks Yaz has watched their vlogs like seriously
Honestly I gave up on series 12 when Chibnall’s big opener was “Gallifrey is destroyed... again”. That alone felt like it just took a huge dump on the 50th anniversary and Gallifrey’s return. The Classic series had so much more to work with with Gallifrey and the Timelords were in play. WHY would you get rid of it again after the previous writer used the HALF CENTURY ANNIVERSARY to write it back in in a way that makes sense. The timeless children just drove home how bad a writer Chibnall is. Series 12 was just a clusterfuck with Chibnall cramming in as much nostalgia he could, and throwing in as many plot lines as he could (only to converge in a space of 15 minutes because the rest of the finale is him explaining his fan fiction to us) in a desperate attempt to bring back fans (that left after the empty void that was series 11) to make them watch as he burnt a tv show over half a century old, to ashes in over half an episode of “exposition the series”. At this point I’m just waiting for the show to get cancelled and come back in 2030 where all the writers just agree the 13th Doctor’s adventures didn’t happen.
honestly when you're given the timelords and all of gallifrey theres so many plotlines you could write that would be so amazing and then you decide to destroy it all again? and jesus why is the 13th doctor so political all of a sudden, like i get doctor who has always had some kind of view but for the 11th and 12th season it feels as if the writers approached it like "how can we incorporate doctor who into "stop climate change"" instead of "how can doctor who resemble the real world sometimes, for example, climate change". i really hate the new preachy version of doctor who and all of the speeches the doctor has that are completely unnecessary
@@yuditepic3396 The first Doctor Who adventure addressing Climate change was in 1967. The show isn't any more political than it ever was. People are just much more sensitive about it nowadays for some reason. As to Gallifrey being gone again, eh. Moffat took a huge dump on everything RTD had achieved with the post-Gallifrey Doctor Who setting. Sure, Chibnall could've written Gallifrey out again in a more interesting way, but the setting is stronger without it. RTD correctly realised that a Doctor that's alone and the last of his kind makes for a far more interesting show. Then Moffat indulged his love of the reset button and undid it. Chibnall never should've *had* to destroy Gallifrey again because Moffat never should've brought it back in the first place. But Moffat did, so Chibnall did, and the setting is better for it.
@@irrevenant8724 from what I've seen the show is in fact more peachy, adding the increased scrutiny a female Doctor gets an idiots think the show is more political even though it isn't. As for Gallifrey, I did like the Time War, but destroying it _right after_ we got it back feels like a wasted opportunity, we didn't even got the Doctor ditching the presidency once! Having watched some old Who I don't find the loss of Gallifrey moving, they were assholes anyway, it's frustrating because we didn't got to see them being assholes
@@irrevenant8724 doctor who absolutely gets more political and at this point its hard to watch it because of how preachy it is and purposely diverse. it doesnt make you feel good when you see actors in doctor who that is only there because of their race, so their characters are poorly written because chibnall is a lazy bastard who thinks that thats all they need. the only exception for this is the master because his character is written well, no one actually cares about his race just how good the acting is and how good the writing is. When Moffat brought Gallifrey back he atleast had some right to do so because it was the 50th anniversary and even if you don't agree with Gallifrey coming back, it was an enjoyable story to watch and it wasnt boring and it wasnt in your face with important issues that now seem useless because of how obviously theyre trying to push their agenda. i am so happy that doctor who is trying to become more diverse and it was time for a female doctor, but if doing that costs the show its depth and complexity and the love from fans, doesnt it kind of feel like chibnall thinks that their race is the only thing he needs to focus on. thats honestly quite disgusting
@@yuditepic3396 Chibnall has a bad habit of telling when he should be showing. I think a lot of people interpret that as the show being 'preachy' and like seeing it as signs of 'an agenda', but he does that with everything, not just the themes of the episode. (He actually got a bit better about that in Season 12 and I'm hoping he gets better again in Season 13). I find this whole 'only there because of their race' concept a bit weird. You have to cast actors of *some* race in a role. Why is an actor 'only there because of their race' if they're brown-skinned, but not 'only there because of their race' if they're caucasian? Why do we never see anyone bitching that Graham only got cast so the show could have a white guy in it? Because that makes as much sense. What's costing the show depth and complexity is poor writing and directing. Which, as far as I can see, has nothing to do with any 'agenda', and everything to do with Chibnall not being as strong a writer as RTD or Moffat. Although again he *has* lifted his game in that regard last season compared to Season 11, so hopefully that trend continues. Personally I recommend setting aside looking for an 'agenda', and just try to watch and enjoy the episodes. Some are better than others, but even the poorer ones can be entertaining, dumb fun if you're not busy getting outraged over how there must be some agenda behind how poor they are. And some of them are really very good if you sit and watch them and enjoy them rather than agenda-hunting. @MakiPcr We didn't only just get Gallifrey back. We got Gallifrey back five seasons ago, just before Capaldi's run. Since then we've had Heaven Sent/Hell Bent which acts as a nice coda to the return of Gallifrey. The show was at a good point to write it out again.
I personally feel like the destruction of gallifrey is horrible, as it means the doctor is again alone in the universe aside from the master. Idk it’s just frustrating to see all of moffats era (as much as I hated it) undone
B Tambling arguably, yes. I personally don’t agree though as it brought in a new dynamic in which the doctor now had their planet back, and it was deemed possible by Davis in The End of Time. However, Chibnall killing off all of Gallifrey personally does nothing to increase potential stories, and is more done more just for the shock factor. I also maybe wouldn’t dislike it so much if it wasn’t forgotten about so quickly. I mean, as much as the Doctor hated the Time Lords he would never wish absolute death on them. This seems to be a recurring theme in series 12, in which many deaths have simply been forgotten about, where in previous incarnations the doctor and companions would remain angry about them for a long time after.
Moffat did "undo" Davies work, but in a much more natural way. We saw the Doctor struggle with the loss of his homeworld, and spent years with the character as they agonized and recovered through their trauma. Moffat slowly, but surely, worked Gallifrey back into the fold. It was well-earned, imo Since then we actually didn't get to explore it's return all that much. That is somewhat disappointing, but at least it was here and ripe with potential. Then Chibnall just kinda destroyed it again. Isn't that... I don't know, a little hollow? Repetitive? Disappointing?
Moffat managed to bring Gallifrey back in a way that felt natural. He did cleverly interconnect a lot of concepts that Davis created along with classic who and it payed off in the 50th anniversary. Matt Smith's story arc is actually genius. It wasn't executed as well as it could have but the concept was brilliant nonetheless. In series 12 we suddenly see it destroyed again. What was the point? We are back to the beginning.
The Dr gave up a regeneration to save Wilf (Bernard Cribbins) and mourned that he could still have done so much more when he did it. This Dr learns she actually has infinite lives and was fine with someone giving up their only life for her.
Honestly, I really want to give a shout-out to Maxine Alderton for writing "The Haunting of Villa Diodati"; it's easily the best written episode of the Chibnall era yet (for me at least!) and I loved the imagination she employed for it. I really hope she works more on Who, she's certainly someone whose work I want to see more of :)
@Najawin I'm not terribly familiar with the Big Finish stuff, so I'm not sure how similar the pair are; for me, it was the Escher style looping rooms and the atmosphere she cultivated that I'm fond of. Thanks for the comment though, I'll have to check that audio play out!
When I first saw the scene of Capaldi leaving the battlefield and regenerating, it didn't really touch me that much (except for, of course, the part with remembering Clara) - I wasn't really fond of Capaldi back in the day and thus didn't really care about him leaving (this has changed btw). Now this scene feels like one of the strongest scenes of the whole show. Of course it does. Because this is the last scene of Doctor Who ever.
@Gus Sims no. last 2 seasons were so bad. the characters the villians the story. just a few things can be saved. i wish i could say they were great i really do.
I think Fugitive of the Judoon really could've benefited from being a two parter, we easily could've gotten rid of Praxeus or Orphan 55 and used an extra fifty minutes to really help the story. It's 30% Judoon, 10% Captain Jack, 20% a multi-Doctor Story, 30% story arc and 10% an invasion. It really, really, really could've benefited with a second part. To flesh out these storylines, or, heaven forbid, just focus on one story and save the rest of your concepts for series 13.
paige Stubbs Praxeus is Orphan 55 except 10 times better. Praxeus is an average Doctor Who episode, Orphan 55 is a complete dumpster fire. It's worse than Fear Her or Love and Monsters.
I definitely can't be the only one that feels completely heartbroken with the direction of this show over the past couple of years. During a counselling session a few weeks ago the only way I could describe it to my counsellor was like if I lost a loved one. I grew up with this show and my life revolved around it so much. It hurts me that I don't even care about it anymore - even watching older episodes feels almost painful cause of it what has become now. It's something I just can't come to terms with and accept, I've constantly been wrecking my head over it and I don't think it's even worth the thought anymore. It doesn't bother me that people may enjoy it, but I think it's safe to say that almost 2/3 of the community feels the same from what I can gather. I thought Game of Thrones' ending was atrocious but this has just been a complete stab in the back for me. Please respect that this is how I feel about the show, regardless of how you feel about it - I just can't hold in this frustration anymore!
I feel the same. It used to be my favorite show, it made me bother friends and family to watch it. Now I just dont care about anymore. Even worse that what has been done with Star Wars.
I grew up watching doctor who and now the show has left me so isolated.. The Doctor doesn't act like the Doctor, the companions are so uninteresting and the master acts like a child who discovered crack. I'm sold on the idea that 12 was the last doctor before the SJWs took over...
I wouldn't worry too much, the third season is usually when the doctors regenerate, plus with the backlash these last two seasons got I doubt Chinball will stay on after season 13, So this should all be over in a couple of years.
Can someone also talk about how the master actually came back? He/She died in S10, "the doctor falls". It wasn't even explained, the master just keeps popping up out of nowhere, including after the doctor sends him to another dimension at the end of spyfall.
I always assumed that the Master would come back and be a villain again after S10 because that's what the show has always done. I thought they weren't addressing it in S12 because they were still going with soft reboot nature that S11 brought in to bring in new people, but then the finale references Brain of Morbius of all things so I'm left wondering- why didn't you address the whole Missy thing?
Due to his anger towards the Doctor and use of devices, I believe it’s been heavily implied he is a Pre Missy, Master. They are plenty of gaps for the Master to appear in the timeline as not every doctor had a Master. For the second bit, the Master is known for that. In Witches Familiar, we are left with Missy surrounded by Darleks saying, I’ve just had a very good idea. Then, nothing. She escapes, as she is in the next season but it isn’t explained how. We follow the Doctor and when it comes to the Master we always know as much as they do. The Master is the only villain in New Who I would say, should always be mysterious and the audience should now as much as the Doctor. No previews, like in other episodes where we see the enemy before the Doctor. With the Master the experience must be shared. Also personally, I like that the Master keeps popping up. They are like an ever present possible antagonist, literally the Doctors shadow.
@@DragonsDungeon Fair enough, I'm mostly okay with it, it's just I feel like they could have thrown one line out there maybe to explain it away or something, considering how the finale panned out. Maybe when Dhawan regenerates we'll see Michelle Gomez?
In what way would that be good? Genuine question. I keep seeing people suggesting that, but I don't see what the show would benefit from it. With the Doctor being the Timeless Child that at least makes her past mysterious again, and opens up some new story possibilities (previously-forgotten ancient enemies reappear, The Division starts messing with her again, they try to work out who the Timeless Children are, etc). What would we gain from the Master being the Timeless Child?
@@irrevenant3 I thought the Doctor was already pretty mysterious. We knew he was from Gallifrey but all we got from his past was mentions from him and the Master. They never deep dived into his childhood or his adulthood even. He had at least one kid and was married but the only family member we see from then is his Grandaughter and even she is mysterious. It was always great to be able to make up stuff in our head about his past. His motivations to leave Galifrey due to boredom and curiosity were great and him deciding that the Timelords have great power that could save other planets despite the rules against it was a great moment for the Second Doctor but now it was his destiny. That Timelord Woman we see in the Timeless Child was basically telling him/her to interfere with other planets so it is no longer development the Doctor came up with. I dont think the idea of the Master being the Timeless child is great either. I still would have been upset but it would have made sense as to why the Master was so angry at the Timelords. Maybe he was pissed because they had been lying to him. I admit, it isn't ideal at all but I just think people (including myself) would rather the Master be the Timeless Child than the Doctor if anyone had to be. Even though I would rather neither were.
@@irrevenant3 I think there'd be (at least) two benefits from the Master being TTC: 1) It would explain his sudden anger and decision to destroy Gallifrey - the very people that considered him an "evil renegade" were the ones who benefitted from his regenerative powers. At the same time as building their whole culture on his "stolen" abilities (never mind the number of times they "killed" him as a child in order to investigate and steal those powers) they shun him and use him ("The End of Time"). That's exactly the kind of thing that could flip him from being Missy - rethinking her whole way of life - back to a murderous psychopath. 2) It would make the Doctor realise that, in some ways, the Master had been genuinely wronged: and if her stance is that someone needs to stand up for people who are wronged, then shouldn't she - in some way - be on the Master's side in all this? The fact that the Doctor's own long-life and repeated regeneration is down to the Master and the way he was treated could make her suddenly more cautious and less cavalier when getting in trouble: we'd all be a bit more gung-ho about risky stuff if we thought we could just regenerate out of it if we died. In fact, the Doctor could decide (however temporarily, obviously - LOL) that she would "refuse" (and there'd be some technobabble way around it) to regenerate again, if she died, because of the way she'd been given that regenerative power. Imagine a Doctor who, for the first time, was genuinely scared of the finality of death.
It really doesn't. Yes, the show says something, which is implied to be true, that would change the previously established canon. This is terrible, right? Well, it would be, if that hadn't already happened a dozen times. I think people forget how inconsistent the classic series could be sometimes. The Daleks' backstory, for example, gets straight-up retconned. And you might say (quite rightly) that that's not the same as changing the main character- okay, well in the 1996 movie the Doctor is half human. Which is a damn sight stupider than the Timeless Child plot. And that movie is canon- the fandom has just decided to ignore it. And that, if people feel similarly, is what will happen to this eventually. The show right now isn't great, but it has been *much* worse in the past. We're just used to the unusually long great modern run; eventually it'll change, and it'll be similar to what we like. Or something new that we like! The show's not going anywhere, and past events indicate it will improve again.
@@heatherrockwell9012 Very well put, especially what you said about the "unusually long great modern run". It's easy to overlook how lucky we were to have had two such phenomenally gifted people as RTD and Steven Moffat running the show for ten consecutive series spanning 12 years. That kind of thing only happened once before, IMHO, when Barry Letts and Terrance Dicks handed over to Philip Hinchcliffe and Robert Holmes, in a golden age that only lasted half as long.
doctor who has plenty of canon contradicting things happening, even in classic who. i think we just gotta accept that shit like that will happen in a almost 60 year old show with almost 40 seasons, not including specials and spin-offs and movies. we'll probably get some good seasons again after this as well, but there'll always be bad plot reveals in a show that has been going on for so long
Lews Therin Talamon okay, so they can stop messing shit up and start getting it fucking right for once. We can say those past retcons were bad but if they keep making that mistake then it’s even worse.
Spectrum Storms series 6 and 7 has some of the most iconic episodes ever: impossible astronaut, day of the moon, the girl who waited, the doctors wife, god complex , A good man goes to war, day of the doctor, angels in Manhattan( this last one is only iconic for the exit) . All of these are amazing episodes and some of the best doctor who ever. I’d even take those series arcs over this rubbish
@@dcwatcher4644 Only story I like in S6 is The Girl Who Waited, but one single story doesn't save a whole series. Every other series, even S11 and S12, has at least one good story in it, but S7 really doesn't. I honestly think if it wasn't the season leading up to the 50th, it'd be held in much lower regard. Speaking of which, I'm not even a fan of the 50th either. An Adventure In Space & Time or even Big Finish's The Light At The End would've been a better celebration.
For the Timeless Child reveal, I came up with the head canon/theory of the Master being impersonated by the entity from the Torchwood episode Adam seeing as it was basically Continuity Retcon the character. Also I hope we see a Big Finish origin story for Ashad... and I'm so glad his design wasn't the male equivalent to Chibnall's last attempt of a part converted Cyberman *cough, cough* Torchwood *cough, cough.*
@@EditedAF987 The Master literally reduced Gallifrey, his home planet, to cinders, I doubt he'd do all that if the Timeless Child thing was a complete lie just to fuck with the Doctor
@Najawin I already heard that before and it's what I actually believe. My theory just appeared when I watched that Torchwood episode. If it wasn't for me commenting it, I'd probably forget about it by the end of my Torchwood binge... mainly due to weird things that I'm trying to work out the logic behind. Eg: Why a nuclear power station would dump waste into its control centre or why the Doctor didn't care about Humanity becoming immortal.
Season 12 was strong in my opinion right up till the cliche "main character is extra special". My problem with the show currently is that Jodie Whittaker just feels like some playing the Doctor as a job whereas Eccleston, Tennent, Smith and Capaldi all came across as if they were the Doctor and not simply just acting it. I do think Jodie has been good but she just doesn't feel like she is as into being the Doctor than past actors and it is ashame. I hope season 13 does something that fixes the mess Chibnall has made with this complete lore change as I personally feel its a spit in the face of all the actors who played the Doctor and mostly William Hartnell who for 57 years was the first.
Personally I'm pretty okay with the Timeless Child reveal (though it could've been revealed in a much more interesting way than a glorified Time Lord powerpoint slideshow :/). It doesn't make the character 'special' in a way that aggrandises them, it just gives them extra history to explore. It hasn't advantaged the character - if anything her biology (which all Time Lords now have anyway) just made her a test subject. Everything the Doctor has done to become the hero they are is *despite* them being the Timeless Child, not because of it. So I'm okay with it. I'll be especially okay with it if Chibnall does something interesting with it in Season 13. At this point I'm about 50/50 on whether he can pull that off or not. Season 12 was overall pretty darn good until they tripped at the last hurdle...
@@irrevenant3 I disagree but fair enough. It wouldn't surprise me if the storyline for season 13 is the Doctor's name and they actually reveal which to me would put the final nail on the coffin for Chibnall
@@ThePillowCage Maybe, but personally I suspect not. The Timeless Child reveal is one that deliberately gave us a couple of answers in exchange for many more open questions. Much of the Doctor's history *is now a mystery again.* That's huge. She now has a huge array of previously unknown enemies, friends and adventures. We don't even know what race she is, or anything about them. This is a reveal that opens the show up for future stories. Whether you like the twist or not, it had a *point.* Telling us the Doctor's name is a reveal that wouldn't achieve anything.
@@chrissonofpear1384 Not necessarily *always* but before Hartnell, yes. That's an as-yet-unexplained mystery. It's explainable a few different ways but we have yet to see what the official reason is.
I kinda hope they retcon it where the master claimed the doctor as the timeless child to mess with her state of mind, i know that it wouldn't make sense but it would kinda make sense.
@@connorhuested i'm kinda hoping they're going down that route, that the master lied because he couldn't deal with what he truly was and what his people did to him, so he maybe deluded himself into thinking it was about the doctor. alternatively that they both are timeless children and he's in denial
@@pandapotato1617 But the main point of the Timeless Child reveal is presumably to expand the setting (enabling previously unknown Doctor Who adventures, incarnations, allies and enemies) and to set up story threads for season 13 (establishing The Division as a threat, planting the mystery of where the Timeless Child came from, etc.). It seems pretty likely that The Doctor being arrested by Judoon (who are mysteriously able to breach the TARDIS) at the end of 'The Timeless Children' is setting that ball rolling. I find it weird that so many people are eager to disregard this story arc just as it's starting before we even see where it goes. Plus I'm kinda hoping to see Jo Martin again, which can't happen if we pretend the Timeless Child thing isn't in play...
I originally agreed that the series beginning is a return to form-agreeing that it was a basic improvement since last season.... BUT On rewatch I think our standards have been lowered so much we can’t remember how good DW can be. There are other franchises I’m unhappy with the mistreatment of characters in (current spider man for example) but none I have taken to heart as much as Dr Who. We’ve reached its plummet into stagnant storytelling that mimics the shows past and now I long for a NEW NEW WHO. Hopefully the Doctors saviour will come soon
Agree, I watch new who practically weekly. And so far the only Chibnal series episode I have rewatched more than once (original viewing + one) is Witchfinder. But that’s just because it was my favourite of season 11. Meanwhile I can nearly speak the script of the majority of new who. Not bragging, I have a friend who is now watching new who with me and gets annoyed by me saying lines ahead of the characters. But that’s how memorable doctor who used to be to me.
Off topic, but I personally love what they're doing with Spider-Man at the moment, especially after the TASM films, which I quite disliked myself. My only regret is this tug of war between Marvel Studios and Sony with the film rights.
The average quality for the 'monster of the week' has always been quite bad. For every episode in seasons 1-8 (imo the best ones) that we look back on fondly there's another that we have blanked from out memories because the villain was trash.
Plus the Doctor having unlimited regenerations and being the source of the timelord's regeneration ability makes a lot of past events and arcs either lose meaning or become a straight plot hole. Like even some of the little things like Missy giving the Doctor an army of Cybermen for his birthday, a birthday that appearently never existed
Or the idea that since 11 was supposed to be the last regeneration, that that is part of the reason why 10 is so upset in his final episode. His life is nearly over, even if it's a different man. To him, the story was ending.
@@mattyice9535 if that were it 10 wouldn't have regenerated into his same face, plus there are other story arcs than just the Doctor actually dying. There have been so many moments he could've healed people and so many moments he could've shot regeneration energy lasers out if his hands to take down a Dalek fleet like he did when 11 regenerated
@@christopherbennett5858 yeah, that was brilliant. Now what are we supposed to think, she is actually the Doctor's daughter... I'm... And his wife.... And he was willing to risk this. Maybe that's why 13 had so much shock when she found out.
"A more rounded and developed Tardis team" You on some drugs mate? 3 companions are too much and they can't get proper characterization and screentime. They don't have any motivations besides "Oy! Lets hang out with the wacky alien lady!" Also 13th's personality flip flops constantly between "Nuuu don't kill the big scary spiders" to flat out killing people herself, just not with guns. And let me get this straight, I think Jodie CAN act fine, if given the right script. But the script for the Doctor Who season was horrid.
the thing is, 11's trio all had their time to shine before the three of them got together. First we only had 11 and Amy, which allowed her to have her character established. Then came Rory. Even though he's introduced in the first episode, he only joins after a couple, to leave enough time for Amy to get her spotlight. Repeat process for River. For 13 though, the trio gets together immediatly and as a result there's no time for each of them to be established as characters, making them boring and without a lot if any depth.
@@The_VanDal Agreed and we never know why they travel with 13, they just decide to leave they're old lives behind and travel through time and space for no reason at all.
honestly even though series 12 was a huge improvement on series 11, I think you were way way to generous with the praise at the beginning of this video.. I think series 11 dropped the bar so low that people are forgetting how amazingly good this show used to be..
Here I am, once again. I haven't even started watching the video, just want to add my two cents. I hated season 11, and I still (mostly) hate season 12, not because of Jodie, not because of her supporting cast, but just because it's so god damn boring. I think under the right direction, Jodie would have made a fantastic doctor. She has the inquisitive nature of the doctor down, but she lags behind in confidence and presence. Most of this I am almost certain is because of the writing. She was wonderful in broadchurch. But throughout this entire season the doctor's entire foundation felt very shaken. My number one rule with doctor who, is that if the companions were removed the Doctor still needs to be able to carry the episode. Jodie wasn't able to do that, whether because of bad direction or bad writing, I'm unsure. In the passed iterations of the Doctor, (Throughout new who) they've always been confident, charging their way through the story. It felt like Jodie's doctor was a convenience to the story, a plot device, and not the "steal the show clever rambunctious" doctor we've all gotten used to since 2005. But almost every single episode has the same plot. Doctor ends up in dangerous situation, doctor loses all of her tools and is forced into a corner. Doctor is lead to a new reveal in the plot that saves the day, and it's almost always something any other knuckle head in the area could have figured out given a little bit of time. She is a passive version of the doctor, going with the motions of the story. It's fucking boring. It was so boring in fact, I actually whole heartedly welcomed the ending of this season. Not because it was good, it turns the entire plot we all know on its head for no reason other than "haha why not" But at the same time, at least it was fun to watch. I enjoyed the last two episodes because they were ridiculous, and felt like a step up from all of the previous plots we'd seen this season. Even if it dirties the lore, at least it was interesting and something new and daring. I'm excited to see more, and I'm hoping a new writer swoops in and carries the plot line, and hopefully fixes it to an extent. I hope there isn't a retcon, but something needs to change fast or I feel we might lose the show in coming years due to bad ratings. (Edit: I would have absolutely adored the arrogant doctor, had it been done right. But I feel like even that was lacking, and contradictory to the character they'd set up. Being angry and hiding it behind whimsical nonsense like Matt's iteration is one thing, but being arrogant and (dare I say) hateful and hiding it behind a facade of niceties is a whole other ball park for me. This doctor is, in my opinion, just poorly written and without proper direction. Eccleston was cunning and fun, but quite ruthless and brash. Tennant was rude and impulsive, but was kind, even when it put his life on the line. Smith was jolly, funny, generous, and intriguing, but hiding behind that baby face was the wrath and bitter loneliness of a timelord. And Capaldi was an amalgamation of all of them, angry, kind, rude, brash, but above all he was caring. Jodie is just... A timelord. She's emotionally inconsistent, spouts and upholds her values without a thought for the feelings or safety of others, and her mood seems to change episode to episode for superficial reasons. That's all just my opinion, of course.)
This Video nearly made me give S12 a chance. I just couldn't after the torture S11 was. But annotations like yours make me think thrice. Is it worth it? Or just pain?
That’s the main issue, if you’re going to make such a drastic change to the main character after 50 years, you’ve got to have the actor and writer to back it up. The Doctor being turned female is as much as an issue as it is to people because the show failed to prove them wrong.
It hasn't really felt like doctor who to me since Peter Capaldi left, not really because of the writing or the actors, it just feels like a different show and there's nothing interesting to it
"Being a fan of doctor who in this era is an exhausting experience." Not to mention depressing, frustrating, enraging and downright painful. S12 did have some good points but the finale. God. THAT FINALE!
Spyfall had a Master I liked. It had an amazing cliffhanger. The Twelfth Series also had Captain Jack. It revealed that the Thirteenth Doctor was sort of like a hybrid of Matt Smith (humor hiding darkness) and Christopher Eckelson (absolute hubris). I mean the Lone Cyberman even reminds me of the Dalek in "Dalek." But then... but then... the finale. By G-d the finale. I seriously hope that they reveal that The Master was lying about the Timeless Child. The Time Lords already have a great backstory.
@@RAINBOWNIGTHMAREPRODUCTIONS Maybe. I mean, why would you believe that the Master is a reliable source of information? The only incarnations of the Master who have been NEUTRAL on the D&D scale were the child Master, the War King (the Eigth Doctor Adventure novels), and Missy (who was amazing!) Sacha Dhawan's Master says that he wiped out Gallifrey... what, because he had a temper tantrum? Why would you believe that he wouldn't lie to cause the Doctor suffering and/or confusion?
@@RAINBOWNIGTHMAREPRODUCTIONS The Trial of the Time Lord arc with the 6th Doctor proves that the Gallifreyan Matrix has been tampered with before, and given that the Master gave the Whittaker Doctor a guided tour in said Matrix whose to say he didn't make a few alterations beforehand.
Spyfall ending rubbed me the wrong way mostly because you had all the doctors saving their home then suddenly the Master brought it all down it didn't feel right or justified for me
Ikr I dislike what they did with series 11 and 12 I hope they can retcon some of the show and just say the 12th doctor was just dreaming as he was rejecting regeneration or something
It’s rough because I feel like the entire “New Who” era felt like a journey to return home and bring back the Doctor’s people... then here we are... the Doctor herself destroying her planet completely
Winter Phoenix it’s like how I felt how dumb the Sequel trilogy was by killing the new Jedi and blowing up my the New Republic just to do Rebels vs empire 2.
It’s annoying that this series was so good up until the final, and even then if you remove The Doctor being The Timeless Child, it is a great episode. If the Master was the Timeless Child, it would explain his anger better. If the Master discover who the child was (not the Doctor someone else), the Doctor may fall to an equal level, and they like Peter and Missy gain a strange alliance. If the Master revealed The Doctor was the Explorer, it would make her question herself more than what happened in the episode and maybe even lead to an arc of finding the child and helping them. Literally just saying the Timelords discover the Timeless Child and took there ability, and leaving it there would have been better than saying The Doctor is the Timeless Child. I am expecting/hoping a retcon in season 13, were it turns out the Master was lying. Better yet, the Master survived the explosion, revealing he did so because he is the Timeless Child, and lied to the Doctor in hopes that it would cause her to fall down to his level, full of hatred and rage that the universe would of felt if not for Ruth Doctor. Doing so because like Missy said they want there friend back. This would also reopen the Ruth storyline, and lead to them fixing the plot hole of the Tardis. Because so far it is implied she is a pre Harknal Doctor, but her Tardis being a police box doesn’t make sense if that is the case, as The First Doctor had the chameleon circuit fail, making it the blue box. My head cannon, to make it accurate is the series 2b theory, I believe it is called, where the second Doctor work for the timelords (now regerating into Ruth in that time) before regerating into the third Doctor, (having their memory erased to forget there work after leaving and hiding on Earth (what Ruth did))
I remember watching Praxeus and feeling so much more invested in Gabriella, a one-off side character, than any of the actual TARDIS team. Still hope we get her as a stowaway on the TARDIS at some point like the box can go anywhere and she’s a travel vlogger come ON Chibnall.
Agree that a lot of the time the side characters are way more interesting than the companions. I would have gladly watched The Doctor travel around with Ada Lovelace and Noor Khan instead of Ryan, Graham, and Yaz. Gabriella is a bit weird though. Her girlfriend/friend/travel partner/whatever dies horribly and she doesn't seem to care. Just happily goes off into the sunset as the third wheel in the cop and astronaut's relationship and decides she's gonna start a new blog? WTF?
The Timeless Child. Exactly the same up till the reveal. Doctor: What happened to the child? Master: Oh doctor really? Haven't you worked this out yet? ... The child is me. I am the timeless child. Doctor: no, no you're not. Can't be.
Still don’t get why the master wasn’t the child. It would’ve answered a lot of questions about him (like why he isn’t dead for a start) and wouldn’t have destroyed the show. It instead would’ve opened a lot of doors for future arcs with the master
Matthew Duncan even better, they could do that reveal and then the big plot twist at the end is that they both are actually the children. It would make their dynamic even greater. I saw someone mention that they could have the doctor and master’s roles of good and evil switch back in forth in the past until finally we see the reason that set the doctor on the path of good: maybe her love for planet earth made the master jealous or something. Really anything is better than what actually happened.
@@thecountofmontecristo2796 Which is stupid because the doctor was already special. The issue is now that she's special because of some deus ex machina 'chosen one' nonsense instead of being special because of her achievements.
The new master feels like an in-between of Simm's master and missy. He has the sadism of Simm's master and the insanity of Missy. I could believe that he's an in-between for those two.
"This whole sequence is framed as if the Doctor faces an impossible moral choice (to) destroy her home and the people she once called her race for the sake of the universe... but in actuality, it seems as if the Doctor's only concern was blowing herself up, as she literally just lets Ko Sharmus take his own life, and escape(s) in the TARDIS" Fucking hell, lol. I thought I'd ran out of things to disappoint me about this episode, but boom, there's another one.
I was shocked to see the Doctor run away from the bomb (and her own unresolved moral dilemma) the way she did. What was even worse, she knowingly let a brave human die in her place. Since when has she ever been such a self-serving coward? Her behavior was totally out of character! IMHO the scene should have been written very differently. It would have made more sense if the Doctor hadn't known about the bomb and had escaped Gallifrey BEFORE the detonation. Same end result, same sacrifice of the noble human, but the Doctor would have still been acting like her (hitherto heroic) self.
I feel like what I lost most in the ending to the series was the fact that they made the Doctor essentially an immortal god, citing that she's had countless regenerations and basically birthed the Time Lords altogether. What bothers me most about that is that it completely changed my view of who the Doctor is, but in a really sloppy way. My idea of the Doctor was that they were an everyday timelord that decided to rebel and travel the universe; they have their faults but overall try to do the right thing. But now knowing that they're immortal and practically the most important person in the universe, it distances their character and makes A LOT of the series redundant.
I feel the exact same way. What made the Doctor special was that he chose to be different from other Timelords. The Doctor wasn't born the most important being in the universe, rather he became an important being in the universe because his actions. The Timeless Children undermines that and gives the Doctor a "Chosen One" narrative that we have seen many times before both good and bad, but The Timeless Children "Chosen One" story even makes the other bad "Chosen One" stories better by comparison.
Ok, this video and the newer “Timeless Child Doesn’t Work” video earned you a sub and notifications. You, sir, know what you’re talking about. Very much enjoyed this review.
I agree with all of this. Although I do think there is something interesting in the concept of not being defined by your past, and how this is exemplifies the fundamental difference between the value systems of The Doctor and The Master. But… It wasn't really explored. This is my own head-canon trying to make sense of a finale to an otherwise reasonably solid series.
It annoyed me we were getting a new master after only twelve episodes without the character, especially considering how good an ending The Doctor Falls gave the Master.
Completely agree The Master had a perfect send off with him killing himself, like yeah obviously The Master will come back but not 12 episodes later. And it hurts that this is ignored and it annoys me how the isn’t explained to the causal viewer I had to put effort in and google it to find out so dumb.
Sacha Dhawan is an amazing Master, he has that energy about him while also being sadistic and those two combinations make him really scary, something that is similar to Simm, but the character is ultimately portrayed differently
@@DarthCompetent that's a really good question. Maybe because they took the regeneration, they also assimilated enough similar DNA to be able to at least reproduce? It's the only thing that comes to mind 🤷🏻♀️
It all feels like a remake of the first 10 seasons, just with worse stories, acting, score and fan service. I doubt this era will go beyond season 13 if the ratings continue to drop.
I'm sorry for so many comments but I'm emotional. I think Yaz has the potential to be a brilliant Martha Jones-esque companion, she has the brilliance for it. She should be the lone companion
Ascension of the Cyberman had this exact problem. It was a great episode with a really exciting subplot about a boy's life in Ireland. You wonder: how does this relate to the story? Then a brilliant cliffhanger where he is the only one who's aged and then has his memory wiped. You wonder: how can this be the case... It doesn't make any sense... Then in the next episode it turns out all to be something the time lords put in the matrix to cover what really happened. You wonder: did I just spend 20 minutes of the last episode watching a metaphor???
In terms of S1-5 and the Capaldi Era, I'm inclined to agree that it doesn't compare, but when compared to Series 6 & 7, I'm not sure where I stand on that.
@Spectrum Storms I'm intrigued by the amount of criticism 6 & 7 are receiving, which I personally find still very good, might they not be 2-5; Matt Smith's Doctor had me all along with quite few iconic episodes and whole story archs along this path. Whereas I have my reservations during Capaldi's era, mainly because of Clara's story/ies. So tell me, I'd like to listen!
@@ncg7987 That pretty accurately sums up a lot of the criticism of 6 & 7. There is also a bit about Moffat not properly utilizing payoff and about how in 6 & 7, the Doctor becomes the center of the universe, rather than just a part of it. Dr. Who thrives based on the show runner and the writers they manage. Some do better jobs than others. They all should have a different style imo. That will obviously lead to people not liking certain incarnations, even if their vision was executed well.
13:22 Just. WOOOOOOW!!! That´s such an awesome interaction between the two, why did I miss that? Seriously, I think this stands out so that a lot more people schould actually be talking about that!
I didnt really *like* the character of 13 by the end of this series her arrogance was never really portrayed as a character flaw which I would've really liked if for once the companions FINALLY resisted her after she put herself at the top of the team and did whatever she wanted but nah, it was more portrayed as a moment of individuality which really pissed me off that she would be so selfish to the "fam" and one of the worst parts came at the end as multiple times she had no opposition to just blowing up all her enemies except like 1 moment of hesitation in the finale which predictably ended in the old man sacrificing himself instead which just made me believe that the doctors hesitation was only for her own life, but if *one* person might die from cyberium, suddenly not only the doctor, but half of the companions also think his life is worth a war that destroys humanity and leads to the events of the timeless children. The doctor experienced genocide on the entire earth and was the reason the time lords become cybermen yet has almost no empathy about it because she saved *one* person many years earlier. She completely ignored the warnings of jack and the companions and STILL they follow her, with yaz being completely obsessed over her in the end.
honestly, i'm hoping that they go for the cheap twist that the master simply lied to her and that either he is the timeless child and couldnt deal with that knowledge and pushed it onto her in a fucked up attempt at seeing his own history from a third perspective, or that the master lied about there being only one timeless child, and that they both actually are the timeless children (as two separate characters, not as the master is like a future doctor incarnation)
The main problem I have is the way that Gallifrey and the timelords were handled even before the timeless child. Destroying Gallifrey felt so rushed and anticlimactic.
I sort of half agree and half not. Destroying Gallifrey off-camera was anticlimactic, but it was also very effective and impactful just turning up there and *BAM.* No big battle. No chance to save it. Just: It died when you weren't looking. Traumatic. Mind you, I always thought RTD made the right call in destroying Gallifrey in the first place and feel Moffat should never have brought it back. So I'm not too horrified to see it gone again...
irrevenant3 it also wasn't explained how the master single handely destroyed one the most advanced civilizations ever. I kinda feel the legacy of gallifrey deserved better.
@@SuperMaester I thought I submitted this already, but I can't see it now, so sorry if this is a dupe... Personally I don't have a problem with it. The Master has repeatedly been shown to be brilliant, imaginative and ruthless. Evil's answer to The Doctor. The Time Lords have repeatedly been shown to be a hidebound, passive and unimaginative civilisation well past their prime. I don't need to be shown specifically how the Master curbstomped them because I know he could easily do so if he wanted to. I get that not showing it onscreen could seem disrespectful to the legacy of Gallifrey. But I think it was the right call story-wise. *How* Gallifrey was destroyed isn't the focus of the story - the impact of that destruction and the reasons it was destroyed are. I don't think you could meaningfully show the destruction of Gallifrey in less than half an episode. And in a 10-episode season, I think that screentime is better spent elsewhere. Interestingly, RTD came to basically the same conclusion back in season 1. He also had Gallifrey destroyed off-camera prior to the start of the season. And again that let us focus on the most story-important thing - how that destruction affected the Doctor. Also, not showing us the conflict made that conflict more epic. Moffat's attempts to put the Time War on screen were always going to pale compared to the image we'd built up of it in our minds. And they did. IMO Master v Gallifrey could also never be done justice on screen and Chibnall made the right call in not trying to. There are downsides to that approach, but overall I think Chibnall and RTD made the best possible call.
@@irrevenant3 yes, but when RTD destroyed Gallifrey it was through a whole war that ravaged all of time and space. Even if it wasn't shown. The master just kills Gallifrey super easy. And as someone who had never seen the classics (it's really hard to find them anywhere) i was interested in exploring Gallifrey more, and i thought the Doctor's arc about the destruction of Gallifrey was pretty much complete.
@@galarstar052 We don't know how hard it was for the Master to destroy Gallifrey - it happened off-camera. And like I said above, I never viewed the destruction of Gallifrey as an 'arc' - I viewed it as the new normal. I think we're in 'agree to disagree' territory now though...
I still think series 12 as its up and downs but my biggest complaint is that there is no "I'm the doctor" meaning that I don't know who this doctor is . If anything series 13 seems like it might be the real reveal .
I don't understand why no one seems to mention the fact that in Series 11 the evil cloth literally calls the Doctor the Timeless Child. It's stated right there and then. So how is that information a big reveal in series 12? I enjoyed the series overall and am looking forward to 13 but the final episode was just nonsensical.
Yup... REMNANT: You lead but you're scared, too, for yourself and for others. DOCTOR: Yeah, well, who isn't? REMNANT: Afraid of your own newness. We see deeper, though, further back. The Timeless Child. DOCTOR: What did you just say? REMNANT: She doesn't know. DOCTOR: What are you talking about? What can you see? REMNANT: We see what's hidden even from yourself. The outcast, abandoned and unknown. (Transcript credit to "The Doctor Who Transcripts" website)
@@ftumschk Thank you! I'll admit it's only implicit that the Timeless Child is the Doctor, but that's about as heavily implicit you can go without becoming explicit!
The way the Master was revealed used to be clever: Simm's: Hid his identity in a fobwatch to escape the trauma of the Time War. Reconnected with the watch upon subconscious implant of memory by Ten accidentally showing it to him. Takes over Ten's TARDIS, escapes to Earth and assumes control as British Prime Minister. Gomez: Changed gender, disguised herself as an android that actually fooled Twelve until the last ten minutes. Transformed the corpses of London into ressurrected Cybermen, revealed herself as they took over the city. Dhawan: HAHAHA YEAH YOU'RE RIGHT, I LIED ON A PIECE OF PAPER, SURPRISE IT'S ME AGAIN I'M INSANE FOR SOME REASON, DESPITE ME ACTUALLY TRYING TO CHANGE, OH AND I NOW DRESS, LAUGH AND ACT LIKE THE JOKER WAHOOOO
@@matthewduncan8523 nah, it's the era of internet and Doctor Who is a worldwide phenomenon now; it's probably better for them to fire Chinball and retcon all his stupid ideas
MakiPcr at this point it’s obvious the BBC don’t care about Doctor Who anymore. Removing Chibnall would be a good move so it won’t happen sadly. The best we have coming I’d guess is fan produced content and not a lot of actually good official stuff
Well that was nice to watch. Coherent, cogent, properly critical but without some bloke just shouting at me. Lovely. Would you like to address that age old problem of 'the crowded Tardis' next?
The Doctor has already seen the total destruction of Gallifrey. Matt Smith and the motorcycle ride up the building was amazing. Here, having motorcycles at hand just seemed like "hey, let's have a motorcycle scene now."
thank god, a doctor who channel who actually see's the improvements, in which series 12 has done. it obviously isn't the best season ever but miles better than 11.
I cant believe the doctor had a whole episode about how she freed a god who completely outsmarted and trapped her only for the shortest conclusion ever of "she used the fingers cos sonic"
Haven't watched the video because I haven't seen the series but that's why I'm commenting. The title actually makes me interested/hopeful in watching it at some point! I saw the first episode of the series when it aired and it was so bad I just haven't been arsed to watch anymore. Maybe I will now
I approached Series 12 with low, low expectations, and most the time I didn't even bother to watch it live. So I already knew the spoilers half the time before watching. It is perhaps for this reason that I actually quite LIKED Orphan 55. But every other time an episode pulled a fan-servicey twist (Gallifrey is destroyed, Jack is back, Ruth is the Doctor) I rolled my eyes because I didn't trust the show to take it in a competent direction. Plus, I didn't see what was so great about Spyfall. While it wasn't 3 episodes in 1 like last season, it somehow ended up being 5 or 6 episodes in 2. Not a significant improvement in my mind. And I never found the Lone Cyberman a compelling villain. For me, the Cybus Cubermen (which kept only the brains of their human selves) are the definitive version of the Cybermen. It makes no sense for it to be metal parts glued to an otherwise-functional human body, with working eyeballs and everything. And it never made sense that this would inspire Shelley to write Frankenstein, because the fact that it was made from the bodies of multiple humans is an inconsequential detail compared to the fact that, I dunno, it's made of freaking METAL. It says a lot that the Doctor Who writing team thinks this idea is good enough to use *twice.* That is the level of barrel-scraping we're at now. Finally, to address another point from the video, I don't think Series 12 ever committed to portraying the Doctor as a properly flawed character. She makes mistakes, yes, but it never outright condems her for it. She can be wrong, but never actually _in_ the wrong. The show still wants us to believe she's Miss Moral Purity, despite never bothering to establishing her as that. And her "socially awkward" moment with Graham was the final nail in the coffin of her characterisation. When the Doctor was revealed as the Timeless Child, I didn't feel disappointed, just oddly vindicated. Because maybe this would make others equally aware of just how bad the show has gotten (something I've felt very strongly about since Resolution).
When "Fugitive of Judoon" happen I was like, "You know what this is Doctor! You experience this!" and in the end I was right and ecstatic at the foreshadowing. Jodie's performance of the character was way better that season 11 and I feel it! This season makes me fall in love with the doctor again. For me, "Timeless children" is just an excuse to explain why The Doctor can regenerate more than a "normal" timelords.
my feeling towards the timeless child is that i think it's more the 2nd act twist then the 3rd act finale there's still plenty to answer that maybe it's not suppose to make scene.....that being said it's not any good really the timeless child should have been the master it just makes more scene the timelord who always wanted imortality always had it and was used by his people would explain his new hatred and evil
Ugh! This doctor was so “forced into your face” and a lot of “watch this, I’m gonna be clever! Right? Get it!??” So desperately dropped the ball. I love the actors but hate their...predicaments and decisions.
The actual best thing *not* in the 12th season is that they did not spell out how Ashad inspired Frankenstein. Other showrunners would have had the doctor spoonfeed that to us, but Chibnall trusted his audience to be smart enough to figure it out without hand holding. That's what I loved about this particular series.
Ahh maan the more you make me see it, the more i see the 6th doctor all over her portrayal. Arrogant, rude to his friends. I hope series 13 fully develops her.
this tardis crew is the original tardis crew from 1963. sort of. Grahame is barbera, the voice of reason, the sounding board, the negotiator. Yas is ian chesterton, the action hero, independent. ryan is susan. the jr. sidekick developing and coming of age.
What I love about the Spyfall cliffhanger is that it did what RTD used to do which was re edit the ending to make the cliffhanger seem deliberately weak in order to prevent spoilers and increase the shock factor. And further still I remember reading the advance review of Spyfall in which they said the cliffhanger was confused and lacklustre attached to a better episode. I actually thought oh typical chibnall at least the rest of the episode might be good but then when that cliffhanger came I was considerably more excited than I would have been if I read an advanced review which said there was a jaw dropping cliffhanger. It played on the audiences expectations that the typical course would be no villains and even got people to say exactly that that was what was happening to make the cliffhanger as impactful as possible. I’d even put the Spyfall cliffhanger in my top 5 cliffhangers of new who: 5. The pandorica opens cliffhanger 4. The Utopia cliffhanger 3. The Spyfall cliffhanger 2. The empty child cliffhanger 1. The bad wolf cliffhanger
Vlad-Horia “I’ve had an upgrade!” fucking killed me. I remember pausing the episode and smacking my face into my pillow about 10 times before continuing. From that point on.. I watched a further 4 episodes. Episodes 5, 8, 9 and...... *10*
@@MrGreaves Oh for God's sake, it's not a pc statement, it's a one-off line that they would be funny. They're not making a militant stance that women should rule the world or something. They probably put it in there because they knew some people would get really annoyed by it, that's all. Getting upset about it just means you're playing into their hands.
@@Ben-vf5gk even besides the gender factor of it, the Doctor has always claimed superiority over their predecessors so calling themselves an upgrade is just a new way of doing what they've done for multiple incarnations
The Timeless Child storyline also suffers from what I call "Lost Syndrome". It's a modern trope where a mystery is slowly teased out, then the big reveal happens - only to ask more questions than it answers. 'Flux' followed this up with just enough answers to string the viewers along, before dumping us with an "It doesn't matter anyway" explanation as we got at the end of 'The Timeless Children'. The thing is, for this trope to work the final mystery needs to be revealed in a satisfying way. Do we really want to know what the universe the Timeless Child Dr came from was like, and what her history up to that point was and why she was left in our universe? And was Chibnall actually planning to answer these questions? Considering he keeps coming back to "It doesn't matter anyway" I think we have our answer.
I liked Series 12, but I am also not a fan of The Timless Children. I scoff at the people who think the bad writing is done because of a woke agenda. It's a silly theory
To each their own. I just couldnt get into it. Some episodes where ok now that I put my torch and pitchfork away. But still not my cup of tea, especially after the cluster of the timeless child.
I really like this series. I think there were definitely more hits than misses, at least, say, with Praxeus, it was a hit, but it was kind've awkward and uninteresting and effortless. It has lower lows than series 11, but higher highs than series 11.
Broadly agree. Orphan 55 was truly dire but I liked all othef episodes with a couple of stone cold classics. I get some people don't like how the show is now but it just seems like they are watching a different series to me... Chibnall is never the best writer, we all know this, but he has got better and I at least like his scripts now (which I never did before he was showrunner and rarely in season 11)
I found comment on twitter about how in the latest episode Captain Jack talked to Yaz about how "One doesn't decide when to stop travelling with the Doctor" only to have that apparently contradicted when Ryan and Graham _decided_ to do just that. However, I don't think Jack meant _every_ companion who travelled with the Doctor, we've seen several companions make a decision to leave the Tardis, but the _really_ important ones, the _main_ ones have always had bittersweet or even tragic partings. Rose, Amy, Donna, Clara, Bill (I hate to do Martha a disservice, but I see her rather as a rebound companion after Rose). These are the companions that _loved_ the Doctor and whom The Doctor loved. (I could go into Classic Who, but this post is already an essay as it is!) And that's when it struck me- they're setting up Yaz to be the new Rose or Amy, to be that one special companion that we all ship, but know that it'll break our hearts in the end. I'm sorry, I'm not feeling it. When we were introduced to Rose, the Doctor came to her rescue, like a knight in shining armour and soon shared with her (and us the audience) his recent trauma. With Donna he had, in his words, a mate, shorn of the romantic obstacles he had with Rose and Martha. With Amy, he was her imaginary friend, returned to her as an adult. From the outset (although, to be fair, it was in Donna's _re_-introduction) the bond between Doctor and companion was established. Now take Yaz's introduction. The Doctor hardly gives her (or Ryan or Graham) a second glance. To me, they've always felt... perfunctory. "Well, The Doctor has companions, so let's give her these guys". To me, there was no "spark", no sense of being whisked off their feet and into a fantastic adventure by a charming magician. The attitude of "the fam" has always been "OK...cool" when it should be "oh wow!" And that's fine, not all of The Doctor's companions need to go on an epic journey of self discovery, sometimes you just go along for the ride, but have Yaz suddenly be the "new Rose" after being just one of three passengers for two series feels _forced._
I haven't watched the series since the first season of the Capaldi era, I just dropped it like a hot stone and never really knew why - something just didn't feel the same about this show anymore. What shocks me though is that the series is still gassing on about Gallifrey. It gets destroyed, brought back, sent back into a pocket of time, brought back again, and then destroyed again. I just wish they'd settle on what they want to do, because at this point it seems exhausting. There are so many narrative possibilities having Gallifrey back since it has been out of the game for so long in the reboot era but I guess we have to settle back into the Doctor and the Master being the 'last of their kind' rut. Maybe I'm missing something because I haven't watched the series in ages but it all seems very trite.
*"Being a fan of doctor who in this era is an exhausting experience"* Couldn't word it any better
Missing a n't?
@@SuMaSLo what do you mean? Bettern't is not a word I've ever heard of!
@@seandabest4329 Feel free to correct me, but I recall the saying being " *Couldn't* word it any better ",
though the change might be on purpose. In which case, I'm not really sure what Sam's intention is?
@@SuMaSLo feel free to correct me, but I believe my comment was clearly intended to be a joke?
@@seandabest4329 Pardon; erare humanum est.
Though I might add: non contextual written word isn't known for its great properties of conveying fine nuanced subtleties, thus having quite a degree of freedom regarding its interpretations.
What was the point of giving the character of The Master a satisfying redemption arc as Missy, only to bring him back a year later acting like an evil hairdresser?
I believe there was an episode that had two incarnations of the master and this is the regeneration of the master from tennants era not missy.
Could be an old version. We don’t know yet where he fits in
I agree though in relation to time it's makes sense since he Could be from anywhere but in relation to the episode timeline It was just bad. The missy redemption was such a breath of fresh air and it Was really just shat on.
He's probably an earlier incarnation.
There's an audio story where we learn Missy will regenerate into the Luminat (the good version of the Master, like the Valeyard is the evil of the doctor). Missy, before her redemption arc, meets the Luminat and kills her. Probably the Luminat became the O Master.
Rose: is scared at the thought she travels with an alien she just met. They eventually fall in love.
Martha: Falls in love with the Doctor, walks around the Earth for 1 year, saves the galaxy and leaves him because she learned she was strong enough on her own and could move on.
Donna: Secretary that yells at everyone, that no one loves. Saves multiple lives and the universe.
Amy: Grew up unable to detach her mind from the Doctor, runs away from her wedding to travel with him. She eventually leaves the Doctor to die with her husband.
Ryan, Yaz and Graham: Meet the Doctor. Become their ‘fam’ 15 min later. No progression so far.
We not mentioning Clara or is she redacted
Donna’s views changed across Fires of Pompeii and Planet of the Ood. She stopped Davros almost singlehandedly in Journey’s End and prevented The Trickster from taking over in Turn Left
@@captainsludgeslinger3272 For Clara: Always wanted to travel, but never had the opportunity due to her care for the Maitland family. Has a low-key development from scared to brave and finds a more profound friendship with 12. She ends up dying trying recklessly to be like the Doctor, which differs from her introduction(s) in Season 7.
Graham seems pretty clear. After his wife’s (gf?) death in the first episode and his history of cancer, he’s trying to move on and live life to the fullest. Yaz seems more like she’s seeking to escape her family and all the expectations on her. To live an exciting life of adventure vs giving traffic tickets and the like. Ryan feels the weakest in that he’s just along for the ride too with Graham after that ep 1 death.
@@amandalogan89 Graham is imo the only one who have a valid reason to go with the Doctor, but the never dug into it.
Yaz wanted to be a policewoman, but she's never at her damn job, and does nothing during the episodes.
And I must agree with you about Ryan.
12: Never be cruel, never be cowardly.
13: Traps spiders to let them suffocate and, when a friend confides to her about his fear of getting cancer again, uses a flimsy excuse of being "socially awkward" to get out of the conversation.
I will never forgive the awkward cancer scene. She feels the most unlike the doctor here, the doctor always comforted people around them no matter WHAT. Just such bad writing ughhhhh
It’s just like, “I know you’ve had a serious and traumatic experience, but I’m not going to do anything because not being good at social interaction is supposed to be one of my defining personality traits lol”
The writing is poor and I wouldn't like any other doctors saying that
12 was known for being cold, rude and extremely socially awkward, but that never stopped him from comforting Clara at her lowest.
Its understandable not to know what to say in a situation, but it is cold to use it as an excuse not to try to help someone in their most dire time of need.
I also didn't like the acting in that particular scene either
Jodie looked more annoyed , irritated rather than genuinely concerned/ sad for her friend.
It gave off the wrong feeling.
@@mahlicaajaib5231 Right? Even 12 would have at least held his hand or something, maybe even given him a hug. If the continuity was on point 13 could have given him an awkward hug and said that she still didn't think she was a hugging person, or lamented her lack of notecards for the situation.
@@krchecotah I agree even if it was something small like a glance at a card or a tight squeeze of the hand.
Would have been a little bit better than what we got. Because we'd have seen she cared and at least tried to do something.
I'll be honest I havent felt emotion for doctor who after Peter Capaldi left the show
I've felt angry, it funny cuz its so bad..
I've mostly felt exasperation. If that counts as emotion, I have felt quite often while watching...
Have liked it since smith left it’s gone down hill so fast, doesn’t feel like doctor who anymore. I tried with capaldi he was just mean and Whittaker is just cringey.
evans capaldi is fine and yes wittaker is bad
Spartanthechief ' calpadi wasn’t fine at all, but if you enjoyed him as the doctor that’s what matters, I just couldn’t get into him as the doctor.
Last time I was this early, the Tardis still had shields..
😂
true
One of the true losses
Oh yeah ! During season 1, right ?
nothing can enter the tardis well this rule was broken i was sooo mad
I think at the core of the dissatisfaction of the Timeless Child reveal is that it’s so obvious. Like reading a children’s book and finding out the main character is the chosen one. Chibnall could’ve subverted the trope in so many different ways. Honestly when I learnt that the title of the episode was “The Timeless Children” I immediately thought that both the Doctor and the Master were Timeless Children, mirroring the immortals in Can You Hear Me, forgetting who they were but playing some game of cat and mouse across the universe with a thousand planets as collateral damage. The twist then being that in past lifetimes it was the Doctor who was sometimes the ‘evil’ one, and the Master the ‘Saviour’ until the audience isn’t really sure which is which. Does the Doctor really stop the Master because they want to save the Earth or because they just enjoy their games of gods and mortals?
Another line of thinking: the Timeless Child could’ve been some separate other entity and the entire episode just focused on the Doctor and the Master being complicit in its torture by using stolen regenerations. This would open doors to the Doctor regretting how their new regeneration cycle came to be.
TLDR: the Doctor being the Timeless Child was the laziest way this could’ve been wrapped up and that makes a lot of people, myself included, very angry. I really hope we get some form of retcon sooner or later.
I absolutely love your first idea. That would have been a fantastic episode. It doesn't create a diversion in the doctor's character. The doctor has killed and well I tip my hat to you.
You've just demonstrated how easy it is to exceed Chibnall's imagination.
There's one very simple retcon that's equally obvious and lazy but after the shitshow Chibnall created it's a necessary evil to save the entire storyline; the Master lied.
Ifan Dafydd well using the idea that the master lied could lead to some interesting character development with the doctor then undecided on what to believe anymore which could create some quite good character arcs but who knows 🤷♂️
That may still come to pass. We still don't know yet why the episode was called the Timeless *Children.*
The writers need to remember how human beings speak, it really does look like they've forgotten.
Greg Hawkins seems they’ve been stunned into......silence
Exactly! The girl in episode praxeus watches her friend burst in front of her showing barely any emotion, then minutes later asks Yaz has watched their vlogs like seriously
@@harshpatil3827 yeah exactly lol, they're literally just there to say lines and to explain plot.
..obviously the next Dr is going to be an african guy .. . . . 🤔
Honestly I gave up on series 12 when Chibnall’s big opener was “Gallifrey is destroyed... again”. That alone felt like it just took a huge dump on the 50th anniversary and Gallifrey’s return. The Classic series had so much more to work with with Gallifrey and the Timelords were in play. WHY would you get rid of it again after the previous writer used the HALF CENTURY ANNIVERSARY to write it back in in a way that makes sense. The timeless children just drove home how bad a writer Chibnall is. Series 12 was just a clusterfuck with Chibnall cramming in as much nostalgia he could, and throwing in as many plot lines as he could (only to converge in a space of 15 minutes because the rest of the finale is him explaining his fan fiction to us) in a desperate attempt to bring back fans (that left after the empty void that was series 11) to make them watch as he burnt a tv show over half a century old, to ashes in over half an episode of “exposition the series”. At this point I’m just waiting for the show to get cancelled and come back in 2030 where all the writers just agree the 13th Doctor’s adventures didn’t happen.
honestly when you're given the timelords and all of gallifrey theres so many plotlines you could write that would be so amazing and then you decide to destroy it all again? and jesus why is the 13th doctor so political all of a sudden, like i get doctor who has always had some kind of view but for the 11th and 12th season it feels as if the writers approached it like "how can we incorporate doctor who into "stop climate change"" instead of "how can doctor who resemble the real world sometimes, for example, climate change". i really hate the new preachy version of doctor who and all of the speeches the doctor has that are completely unnecessary
@@yuditepic3396 The first Doctor Who adventure addressing Climate change was in 1967. The show isn't any more political than it ever was. People are just much more sensitive about it nowadays for some reason.
As to Gallifrey being gone again, eh. Moffat took a huge dump on everything RTD had achieved with the post-Gallifrey Doctor Who setting. Sure, Chibnall could've written Gallifrey out again in a more interesting way, but the setting is stronger without it.
RTD correctly realised that a Doctor that's alone and the last of his kind makes for a far more interesting show. Then Moffat indulged his love of the reset button and undid it. Chibnall never should've *had* to destroy Gallifrey again because Moffat never should've brought it back in the first place. But Moffat did, so Chibnall did, and the setting is better for it.
@@irrevenant8724 from what I've seen the show is in fact more peachy, adding the increased scrutiny a female Doctor gets an idiots think the show is more political even though it isn't. As for Gallifrey, I did like the Time War, but destroying it _right after_ we got it back feels like a wasted opportunity, we didn't even got the Doctor ditching the presidency once! Having watched some old Who I don't find the loss of Gallifrey moving, they were assholes anyway, it's frustrating because we didn't got to see them being assholes
@@irrevenant8724 doctor who absolutely gets more political and at this point its hard to watch it because of how preachy it is and purposely diverse. it doesnt make you feel good when you see actors in doctor who that is only there because of their race, so their characters are poorly written because chibnall is a lazy bastard who thinks that thats all they need. the only exception for this is the master because his character is written well, no one actually cares about his race just how good the acting is and how good the writing is. When Moffat brought Gallifrey back he atleast had some right to do so because it was the 50th anniversary and even if you don't agree with Gallifrey coming back, it was an enjoyable story to watch and it wasnt boring and it wasnt in your face with important issues that now seem useless because of how obviously theyre trying to push their agenda. i am so happy that doctor who is trying to become more diverse and it was time for a female doctor, but if doing that costs the show its depth and complexity and the love from fans, doesnt it kind of feel like chibnall thinks that their race is the only thing he needs to focus on. thats honestly quite disgusting
@@yuditepic3396 Chibnall has a bad habit of telling when he should be showing. I think a lot of people interpret that as the show being 'preachy' and like seeing it as signs of 'an agenda', but he does that with everything, not just the themes of the episode. (He actually got a bit better about that in Season 12 and I'm hoping he gets better again in Season 13).
I find this whole 'only there because of their race' concept a bit weird. You have to cast actors of *some* race in a role. Why is an actor 'only there because of their race' if they're brown-skinned, but not 'only there because of their race' if they're caucasian? Why do we never see anyone bitching that Graham only got cast so the show could have a white guy in it? Because that makes as much sense.
What's costing the show depth and complexity is poor writing and directing. Which, as far as I can see, has nothing to do with any 'agenda', and everything to do with Chibnall not being as strong a writer as RTD or Moffat. Although again he *has* lifted his game in that regard last season compared to Season 11, so hopefully that trend continues.
Personally I recommend setting aside looking for an 'agenda', and just try to watch and enjoy the episodes. Some are better than others, but even the poorer ones can be entertaining, dumb fun if you're not busy getting outraged over how there must be some agenda behind how poor they are. And some of them are really very good if you sit and watch them and enjoy them rather than agenda-hunting.
@MakiPcr We didn't only just get Gallifrey back. We got Gallifrey back five seasons ago, just before Capaldi's run. Since then we've had Heaven Sent/Hell Bent which acts as a nice coda to the return of Gallifrey. The show was at a good point to write it out again.
I personally feel like the destruction of gallifrey is horrible, as it means the doctor is again alone in the universe aside from the master. Idk it’s just frustrating to see all of moffats era (as much as I hated it) undone
I agree
Wasnt russells entire time war backstory undone by steven moffat just bringing it back anyway?
B Tambling arguably, yes. I personally don’t agree though as it brought in a new dynamic in which the doctor now had their planet back, and it was deemed possible by Davis in The End of Time. However, Chibnall killing off all of Gallifrey personally does nothing to increase potential stories, and is more done more just for the shock factor. I also maybe wouldn’t dislike it so much if it wasn’t forgotten about so quickly. I mean, as much as the Doctor hated the Time Lords he would never wish absolute death on them. This seems to be a recurring theme in series 12, in which many deaths have simply been forgotten about, where in previous incarnations the doctor and companions would remain angry about them for a long time after.
Moffat did "undo" Davies work, but in a much more natural way. We saw the Doctor struggle with the loss of his homeworld, and spent years with the character as they agonized and recovered through their trauma. Moffat slowly, but surely, worked Gallifrey back into the fold. It was well-earned, imo
Since then we actually didn't get to explore it's return all that much. That is somewhat disappointing, but at least it was here and ripe with potential.
Then Chibnall just kinda destroyed it again. Isn't that... I don't know, a little hollow? Repetitive? Disappointing?
Moffat managed to bring Gallifrey back in a way that felt natural. He did cleverly interconnect a lot of concepts that Davis created along with classic who and it payed off in the 50th anniversary. Matt Smith's story arc is actually genius. It wasn't executed as well as it could have but the concept was brilliant nonetheless.
In series 12 we suddenly see it destroyed again. What was the point? We are back to the beginning.
The Dr gave up a regeneration to save Wilf (Bernard Cribbins) and mourned that he could still have done so much more when he did it. This Dr learns she actually has infinite lives and was fine with someone giving up their only life for her.
Honestly, I really want to give a shout-out to Maxine Alderton for writing "The Haunting of Villa Diodati"; it's easily the best written episode of the Chibnall era yet (for me at least!) and I loved the imagination she employed for it. I really hope she works more on Who, she's certainly someone whose work I want to see more of :)
I felt it was a true classic who episode.
@Najawin I'm not terribly familiar with the Big Finish stuff, so I'm not sure how similar the pair are; for me, it was the Escher style looping rooms and the atmosphere she cultivated that I'm fond of. Thanks for the comment though, I'll have to check that audio play out!
@@TheQuietReader1920 Trust me, the Big Finish story in question is nothing like The Haunting Of Villa Diodati. It's very, very different.
@@ftumschk ahh, interesting! Thanks for the heads-up!
I’ve heard a rumour that she’ll be writing another episode in the next series. Hopefully it’s just as good
I’m not watching anymore until this “timeless child” nonsense is completely done away with. It just doesn’t feel like Doctor Who anymore.
Agreed it's like a different show even the camera angles are different, evolution is good but don't forget the origin
When I first saw the scene of Capaldi leaving the battlefield and regenerating, it didn't really touch me that much (except for, of course, the part with remembering Clara) - I wasn't really fond of Capaldi back in the day and thus didn't really care about him leaving (this has changed btw).
Now this scene feels like one of the strongest scenes of the whole show. Of course it does.
Because this is the last scene of Doctor Who ever.
@Gus Sims no. last 2 seasons were so bad. the characters the villians the story. just a few things can be saved. i wish i could say they were great i really do.
@@xxcorvoxxx_x1959 It has now become clear that the Doctor IS the villain.
to paraphrase Jenny Nicholson, the worst thing a finale can do is make you feel stupid for ever having cared in the first place.
Doctor Who Series 12 Was Pretty Good "(Until It Wasn't)
"
Ah yes, the floor is made out of floor
Just Some Guy without a Mustache ah here he is yet again
I gotta ask man, how does it feel to be an envied meme commenter?
How many of you are there?
we can also never forget Sarah Jane smith
Are you the new Justin Y?
I think Fugitive of the Judoon really could've benefited from being a two parter, we easily could've gotten rid of Praxeus or Orphan 55 and used an extra fifty minutes to really help the story. It's 30% Judoon, 10% Captain Jack, 20% a multi-Doctor Story, 30% story arc and 10% an invasion. It really, really, really could've benefited with a second part. To flesh out these storylines, or, heaven forbid, just focus on one story and save the rest of your concepts for series 13.
Samuel Barber I’d rather no Orphan 55 than no Praxeus is what I’d meant earlier
Can you hear me should've been a two parter aswell
paige Stubbs Praxeus is Orphan 55 except 10 times better. Praxeus is an average Doctor Who episode, Orphan 55 is a complete dumpster fire. It's worse than Fear Her or Love and Monsters.
Samuel Barber definitely needed a two parter for this one. But then having three two partners in one series is a bit crowded isn’t it?
Rhys Causon Series 9 was almost entirely 2-parters and in my opinion it had a lot of good episodes
I definitely can't be the only one that feels completely heartbroken with the direction of this show over the past couple of years. During a counselling session a few weeks ago the only way I could describe it to my counsellor was like if I lost a loved one. I grew up with this show and my life revolved around it so much. It hurts me that I don't even care about it anymore - even watching older episodes feels almost painful cause of it what has become now. It's something I just can't come to terms with and accept, I've constantly been wrecking my head over it and I don't think it's even worth the thought anymore. It doesn't bother me that people may enjoy it, but I think it's safe to say that almost 2/3 of the community feels the same from what I can gather. I thought Game of Thrones' ending was atrocious but this has just been a complete stab in the back for me. Please respect that this is how I feel about the show, regardless of how you feel about it - I just can't hold in this frustration anymore!
Nahh, I welcome ya. Its ok to love or hate something as all humans have opinion.
I feel the same. It used to be my favorite show, it made me bother friends and family to watch it. Now I just dont care about anymore. Even worse that what has been done with Star Wars.
@@vitorcalasan5298 I feel the same way about star trek.
I grew up watching doctor who and now the show has left me so isolated.. The Doctor doesn't act like the Doctor, the companions are so uninteresting and the master acts like a child who discovered crack. I'm sold on the idea that 12 was the last doctor before the SJWs took over...
I wouldn't worry too much, the third season is usually when the doctors regenerate, plus with the backlash these last two seasons got I doubt Chinball will stay on after season 13, So this should all be over in a couple of years.
Can someone also talk about how the master actually came back? He/She died in S10, "the doctor falls". It wasn't even explained, the master just keeps popping up out of nowhere, including after the doctor sends him to another dimension at the end of spyfall.
This irked me too
I always assumed that the Master would come back and be a villain again after S10 because that's what the show has always done. I thought they weren't addressing it in S12 because they were still going with soft reboot nature that S11 brought in to bring in new people, but then the finale references Brain of Morbius of all things so I'm left wondering- why didn't you address the whole Missy thing?
Due to his anger towards the Doctor and use of devices, I believe it’s been heavily implied he is a Pre Missy, Master. They are plenty of gaps for the Master to appear in the timeline as not every doctor had a Master.
For the second bit, the Master is known for that. In Witches Familiar, we are left with Missy surrounded by Darleks saying, I’ve just had a very good idea. Then, nothing. She escapes, as she is in the next season but it isn’t explained how. We follow the Doctor and when it comes to the Master we always know as much as they do. The Master is the only villain in New Who I would say, should always be mysterious and the audience should now as much as the Doctor. No previews, like in other episodes where we see the enemy before the Doctor. With the Master the experience must be shared.
Also personally, I like that the Master keeps popping up. They are like an ever present possible antagonist, literally the Doctors shadow.
@@DragonsDungeon Fair enough, I'm mostly okay with it, it's just I feel like they could have thrown one line out there maybe to explain it away or something, considering how the finale panned out. Maybe when Dhawan regenerates we'll see Michelle Gomez?
The Master has always came back with no explanation. It's a thing that's happened since the classic series.
It would've been good if the timeless child were actually the Master
Would be good if they didn't even exist
Better*
In what way would that be good? Genuine question. I keep seeing people suggesting that, but I don't see what the show would benefit from it.
With the Doctor being the Timeless Child that at least makes her past mysterious again, and opens up some new story possibilities (previously-forgotten ancient enemies reappear, The Division starts messing with her again, they try to work out who the Timeless Children are, etc).
What would we gain from the Master being the Timeless Child?
@@irrevenant3 I thought the Doctor was already pretty mysterious. We knew he was from Gallifrey but all we got from his past was mentions from him and the Master. They never deep dived into his childhood or his adulthood even. He had at least one kid and was married but the only family member we see from then is his Grandaughter and even she is mysterious. It was always great to be able to make up stuff in our head about his past. His motivations to leave Galifrey due to boredom and curiosity were great and him deciding that the Timelords have great power that could save other planets despite the rules against it was a great moment for the Second Doctor but now it was his destiny. That Timelord Woman we see in the Timeless Child was basically telling him/her to interfere with other planets so it is no longer development the Doctor came up with.
I dont think the idea of the Master being the Timeless child is great either. I still would have been upset but it would have made sense as to why the Master was so angry at the Timelords. Maybe he was pissed because they had been lying to him. I admit, it isn't ideal at all but I just think people (including myself) would rather the Master be the Timeless Child than the Doctor if anyone had to be. Even though I would rather neither were.
@@irrevenant3 I think there'd be (at least) two benefits from the Master being TTC:
1) It would explain his sudden anger and decision to destroy Gallifrey - the very people that considered him an "evil renegade" were the ones who benefitted from his regenerative powers. At the same time as building their whole culture on his "stolen" abilities (never mind the number of times they "killed" him as a child in order to investigate and steal those powers) they shun him and use him ("The End of Time"). That's exactly the kind of thing that could flip him from being Missy - rethinking her whole way of life - back to a murderous psychopath.
2) It would make the Doctor realise that, in some ways, the Master had been genuinely wronged: and if her stance is that someone needs to stand up for people who are wronged, then shouldn't she - in some way - be on the Master's side in all this?
The fact that the Doctor's own long-life and repeated regeneration is down to the Master and the way he was treated could make her suddenly more cautious and less cavalier when getting in trouble: we'd all be a bit more gung-ho about risky stuff if we thought we could just regenerate out of it if we died. In fact, the Doctor could decide (however temporarily, obviously - LOL) that she would "refuse" (and there'd be some technobabble way around it) to regenerate again, if she died, because of the way she'd been given that regenerative power. Imagine a Doctor who, for the first time, was genuinely scared of the finality of death.
The thing is... the finale was so bad that it actually ruins the entire show as a whole... like it’s really heart breaking
PitchSkullBlack if we can no longer trust the narrative of the show, what’s the point of watching?
It really doesn't. Yes, the show says something, which is implied to be true, that would change the previously established canon. This is terrible, right?
Well, it would be, if that hadn't already happened a dozen times.
I think people forget how inconsistent the classic series could be sometimes. The Daleks' backstory, for example, gets straight-up retconned. And you might say (quite rightly) that that's not the same as changing the main character- okay, well in the 1996 movie the Doctor is half human. Which is a damn sight stupider than the Timeless Child plot. And that movie is canon- the fandom has just decided to ignore it. And that, if people feel similarly, is what will happen to this eventually.
The show right now isn't great, but it has been *much* worse in the past. We're just used to the unusually long great modern run; eventually it'll change, and it'll be similar to what we like. Or something new that we like! The show's not going anywhere, and past events indicate it will improve again.
@@heatherrockwell9012 Very well put, especially what you said about the "unusually long great modern run". It's easy to overlook how lucky we were to have had two such phenomenally gifted people as RTD and Steven Moffat running the show for ten consecutive series spanning 12 years. That kind of thing only happened once before, IMHO, when Barry Letts and Terrance Dicks handed over to Philip Hinchcliffe and Robert Holmes, in a golden age that only lasted half as long.
doctor who has plenty of canon contradicting things happening, even in classic who. i think we just gotta accept that shit like that will happen in a almost 60 year old show with almost 40 seasons, not including specials and spin-offs and movies. we'll probably get some good seasons again after this as well, but there'll always be bad plot reveals in a show that has been going on for so long
Lews Therin Talamon okay, so they can stop messing shit up and start getting it fucking right for once. We can say those past retcons were bad but if they keep making that mistake then it’s even worse.
It was good, just not Doctor Who good. It was bad when compared to everything Doctor Who used to be, but good if it's your first it second season
Zach H The Haunting of Villa Diodati is pretty damn great. So are Fugitive of the Judson and Ascension of the Cybermen.
TBH, I'd take this era over stuff like Series 6 & 7 in an instant.
Spectrum Storms series 6 and 7 has some of the most iconic episodes ever: impossible astronaut, day of the moon, the girl who waited, the doctors wife, god complex , A good man goes to war, day of the doctor, angels in Manhattan( this last one is only iconic for the exit) . All of these are amazing episodes and some of the best doctor who ever. I’d even take those series arcs over this rubbish
@@pjgs4933 they are great, they just don't feel like Doctor Who. Plus that's not very many out of the season, but there's still room for next season
@@dcwatcher4644 Only story I like in S6 is The Girl Who Waited, but one single story doesn't save a whole series. Every other series, even S11 and S12, has at least one good story in it, but S7 really doesn't. I honestly think if it wasn't the season leading up to the 50th, it'd be held in much lower regard. Speaking of which, I'm not even a fan of the 50th either. An Adventure In Space & Time or even Big Finish's The Light At The End would've been a better celebration.
For the Timeless Child reveal, I came up with the head canon/theory of the Master being impersonated by the entity from the Torchwood episode Adam seeing as it was basically Continuity Retcon the character.
Also I hope we see a Big Finish origin story for Ashad... and I'm so glad his design wasn't the male equivalent to Chibnall's last attempt of a part converted Cyberman *cough, cough* Torchwood *cough, cough.*
Jedi Spartan 38 why would it specifically need to be Adam? It could be the Master just lying
Jedi Spartan 38 oh shit u have Coronavirus
@@EditedAF987 The Master literally reduced Gallifrey, his home planet, to cinders, I doubt he'd do all that if the Timeless Child thing was a complete lie just to fuck with the Doctor
Jake White it could’ve been a fake Gallifrey for all we know. That’s probably what the next show runner is going to reveal anyway
@Najawin I already heard that before and it's what I actually believe. My theory just appeared when I watched that Torchwood episode. If it wasn't for me commenting it, I'd probably forget about it by the end of my Torchwood binge... mainly due to weird things that I'm trying to work out the logic behind. Eg: Why a nuclear power station would dump waste into its control centre or why the Doctor didn't care about Humanity becoming immortal.
Season 12 was strong in my opinion right up till the cliche "main character is extra special". My problem with the show currently is that Jodie Whittaker just feels like some playing the Doctor as a job whereas Eccleston, Tennent, Smith and Capaldi all came across as if they were the Doctor and not simply just acting it. I do think Jodie has been good but she just doesn't feel like she is as into being the Doctor than past actors and it is ashame. I hope season 13 does something that fixes the mess Chibnall has made with this complete lore change as I personally feel its a spit in the face of all the actors who played the Doctor and mostly William Hartnell who for 57 years was the first.
Personally I'm pretty okay with the Timeless Child reveal (though it could've been revealed in a much more interesting way than a glorified Time Lord powerpoint slideshow :/). It doesn't make the character 'special' in a way that aggrandises them, it just gives them extra history to explore. It hasn't advantaged the character - if anything her biology (which all Time Lords now have anyway) just made her a test subject. Everything the Doctor has done to become the hero they are is *despite* them being the Timeless Child, not because of it. So I'm okay with it.
I'll be especially okay with it if Chibnall does something interesting with it in Season 13. At this point I'm about 50/50 on whether he can pull that off or not. Season 12 was overall pretty darn good until they tripped at the last hurdle...
@@irrevenant3 I disagree but fair enough. It wouldn't surprise me if the storyline for season 13 is the Doctor's name and they actually reveal which to me would put the final nail on the coffin for Chibnall
@@ThePillowCage Maybe, but personally I suspect not. The Timeless Child reveal is one that deliberately gave us a couple of answers in exchange for many more open questions. Much of the Doctor's history *is now a mystery again.* That's huge. She now has a huge array of previously unknown enemies, friends and adventures. We don't even know what race she is, or anything about them. This is a reveal that opens the show up for future stories. Whether you like the twist or not, it had a *point.*
Telling us the Doctor's name is a reveal that wouldn't achieve anything.
And now, has the TARDIS ALKWAYS been a police box? No other form? A bit daft, that...
@@chrissonofpear1384 Not necessarily *always* but before Hartnell, yes. That's an as-yet-unexplained mystery. It's explainable a few different ways but we have yet to see what the official reason is.
I kinda hope they retcon it where the master claimed the doctor as the timeless child to mess with her state of mind, i know that it wouldn't make sense but it would kinda make sense.
Marvin Lee I think they could make it work if the Master is the Timeless Child and he lies to The Doctor to make her feel his pain
Sometimes I wonder if Chibnall deliberately did this reveal using the Matrix so he has an out to say that if he (or future writers) want to.
@@connorhuested i'm kinda hoping they're going down that route, that the master lied because he couldn't deal with what he truly was and what his people did to him, so he maybe deluded himself into thinking it was about the doctor. alternatively that they both are timeless children and he's in denial
does it really matter? Or we could just forget about the timeless child thing all together and get something better
@@pandapotato1617 But the main point of the Timeless Child reveal is presumably to expand the setting (enabling previously unknown Doctor Who adventures, incarnations, allies and enemies) and to set up story threads for season 13 (establishing The Division as a threat, planting the mystery of where the Timeless Child came from, etc.). It seems pretty likely that The Doctor being arrested by Judoon (who are mysteriously able to breach the TARDIS) at the end of 'The Timeless Children' is setting that ball rolling.
I find it weird that so many people are eager to disregard this story arc just as it's starting before we even see where it goes.
Plus I'm kinda hoping to see Jo Martin again, which can't happen if we pretend the Timeless Child thing isn't in play...
I originally agreed that the series beginning is a return to form-agreeing that it was a basic improvement since last season.... BUT On rewatch I think our standards have been lowered so much we can’t remember how good DW can be. There are other franchises I’m unhappy with the mistreatment of characters in (current spider man for example) but none I have taken to heart as much as Dr Who. We’ve reached its plummet into stagnant storytelling that mimics the shows past and now I long for a NEW NEW WHO. Hopefully the Doctors saviour will come soon
One can hope.
Agree, I watch new who practically weekly. And so far the only Chibnal series episode I have rewatched more than once (original viewing + one) is Witchfinder. But that’s just because it was my favourite of season 11. Meanwhile I can nearly speak the script of the majority of new who. Not bragging, I have a friend who is now watching new who with me and gets annoyed by me saying lines ahead of the characters. But that’s how memorable doctor who used to be to me.
Dragon's Dungeon One day I’ll feel that child like anticipation for a new dr who story ... the time will come
We need a new writer that is a combination of RTD and Steven Moffat with an actor like Eddie Redmayne or Kris Marshall.
Off topic, but I personally love what they're doing with Spider-Man at the moment, especially after the TASM films, which I quite disliked myself.
My only regret is this tug of war between Marvel Studios and Sony with the film rights.
A leap in quality for villains?
Well I guess going from terrible to quite bad is an improvement...
The average quality for the 'monster of the week' has always been quite bad. For every episode in seasons 1-8 (imo the best ones) that we look back on fondly there's another that we have blanked from out memories because the villain was trash.
Plus the Doctor having unlimited regenerations and being the source of the timelord's regeneration ability makes a lot of past events and arcs either lose meaning or become a straight plot hole. Like even some of the little things like Missy giving the Doctor an army of Cybermen for his birthday, a birthday that appearently never existed
Or time of the doctor and David Tennants regeneration first with the dalek shooting him and when he saves wilfred
Or the idea that since 11 was supposed to be the last regeneration, that that is part of the reason why 10 is so upset in his final episode. His life is nearly over, even if it's a different man. To him, the story was ending.
@@mattyice9535 if that were it 10 wouldn't have regenerated into his same face, plus there are other story arcs than just the Doctor actually dying. There have been so many moments he could've healed people and so many moments he could've shot regeneration energy lasers out if his hands to take down a Dalek fleet like he did when 11 regenerated
@@zachh6868 Or things like how River Song became half time lord.
@@christopherbennett5858 yeah, that was brilliant. Now what are we supposed to think, she is actually the Doctor's daughter... I'm... And his wife.... And he was willing to risk this. Maybe that's why 13 had so much shock when she found out.
"A more rounded and developed Tardis team"
You on some drugs mate? 3 companions are too much and they can't get proper characterization and screentime. They don't have any motivations besides "Oy! Lets hang out with the wacky alien lady!"
Also 13th's personality flip flops constantly between "Nuuu don't kill the big scary spiders" to flat out killing people herself, just not with guns.
And let me get this straight, I think Jodie CAN act fine, if given the right script. But the script for the Doctor Who season was horrid.
11, River, Amy and Rory were the 'fam' of NuWho, and it was just a handful of adventures
@@cja5612 Great point. Three companions isn't too many to develop properly, it's just too many for this particular writing team to develop properly.
@@cja5612 They were my favorite 'Fam' because of all the cool adventures they went on together or when it was just Amy, Rory and 11.
the thing is, 11's trio all had their time to shine before the three of them got together. First we only had 11 and Amy, which allowed her to have her character established. Then came Rory. Even though he's introduced in the first episode, he only joins after a couple, to leave enough time for Amy to get her spotlight. Repeat process for River. For 13 though, the trio gets together immediatly and as a result there's no time for each of them to be established as characters, making them boring and without a lot if any depth.
@@The_VanDal Agreed and we never know why they travel with 13, they just decide to leave they're old lives behind and travel through time and space for no reason at all.
honestly even though series 12 was a huge improvement on series 11, I think you were way way to generous with the praise at the beginning of this video..
I think series 11 dropped the bar so low that people are forgetting how amazingly good this show used to be..
Here I am, once again. I haven't even started watching the video, just want to add my two cents.
I hated season 11, and I still (mostly) hate season 12, not because of Jodie, not because of her supporting cast, but just because it's so god damn boring.
I think under the right direction, Jodie would have made a fantastic doctor. She has the inquisitive nature of the doctor down, but she lags behind in confidence and presence.
Most of this I am almost certain is because of the writing. She was wonderful in broadchurch. But throughout this entire season the doctor's entire foundation felt very shaken.
My number one rule with doctor who, is that if the companions were removed the Doctor still needs to be able to carry the episode. Jodie wasn't able to do that, whether because of bad direction or bad writing, I'm unsure. In the passed iterations of the Doctor, (Throughout new who) they've always been confident, charging their way through the story. It felt like Jodie's doctor was a convenience to the story, a plot device, and not the "steal the show clever rambunctious" doctor we've all gotten used to since 2005.
But almost every single episode has the same plot. Doctor ends up in dangerous situation, doctor loses all of her tools and is forced into a corner. Doctor is lead to a new reveal in the plot that saves the day, and it's almost always something any other knuckle head in the area could have figured out given a little bit of time. She is a passive version of the doctor, going with the motions of the story. It's fucking boring.
It was so boring in fact, I actually whole heartedly welcomed the ending of this season. Not because it was good, it turns the entire plot we all know on its head for no reason other than "haha why not" But at the same time, at least it was fun to watch. I enjoyed the last two episodes because they were ridiculous, and felt like a step up from all of the previous plots we'd seen this season. Even if it dirties the lore, at least it was interesting and something new and daring. I'm excited to see more, and I'm hoping a new writer swoops in and carries the plot line, and hopefully fixes it to an extent.
I hope there isn't a retcon, but something needs to change fast or I feel we might lose the show in coming years due to bad ratings.
(Edit: I would have absolutely adored the arrogant doctor, had it been done right. But I feel like even that was lacking, and contradictory to the character they'd set up. Being angry and hiding it behind whimsical nonsense like Matt's iteration is one thing, but being arrogant and (dare I say) hateful and hiding it behind a facade of niceties is a whole other ball park for me. This doctor is, in my opinion, just poorly written and without proper direction. Eccleston was cunning and fun, but quite ruthless and brash. Tennant was rude and impulsive, but was kind, even when it put his life on the line. Smith was jolly, funny, generous, and intriguing, but hiding behind that baby face was the wrath and bitter loneliness of a timelord. And Capaldi was an amalgamation of all of them, angry, kind, rude, brash, but above all he was caring. Jodie is just... A timelord. She's emotionally inconsistent, spouts and upholds her values without a thought for the feelings or safety of others, and her mood seems to change episode to episode for superficial reasons. That's all just my opinion, of course.)
Vile Vindicator completely agree with you
I have lots of issues with Series 11 and 12, but you really put a lot of what I don't like into words.
This Video nearly made me give S12 a chance. I just couldn't after the torture S11 was. But annotations like yours make me think thrice.
Is it worth it? Or just pain?
@@SuMaSLo I would say watch it. It was much better than S11. It just was kind of mediocre. Like watching torchwood.
@Najawin Just read that Moffat story. It was so good!
Genuinely refreshing to see an intelligent, balanced review that isn't just "Dr who is s MAN! 0/10"
Yeah, like the dr being a woman isn the problem, the problem is the writing got terrible.
That’s the main issue, if you’re going to make such a drastic change to the main character after 50 years, you’ve got to have the actor and writer to back it up. The Doctor being turned female is as much as an issue as it is to people because the show failed to prove them wrong.
Um... what kind of reviews have you been watching?
Fr
It hasn't really felt like doctor who to me since Peter Capaldi left, not really because of the writing or the actors, it just feels like a different show and there's nothing interesting to it
I agree that Missy should be the last master. I hope it is explained that this is the one before Simm as Dhwan is more manic than Simm
TheResurrectionOfMars yep, he is no way the incarnation after missy
"Being a fan of doctor who in this era is an exhausting experience." Not to mention depressing, frustrating, enraging and downright painful. S12 did have some good points but the finale. God. THAT FINALE!
Spyfall had a Master I liked. It had an amazing cliffhanger. The Twelfth Series also had Captain Jack. It revealed that the Thirteenth Doctor was sort of like a hybrid of Matt Smith (humor hiding darkness) and Christopher Eckelson (absolute hubris). I mean the Lone Cyberman even reminds me of the Dalek in "Dalek." But then... but then... the finale. By G-d the finale.
I seriously hope that they reveal that The Master was lying about the Timeless Child. The Time Lords already have a great backstory.
JJ Chaos I have to wonder if that was written in a way so that Chris Chibnall has a way out. It’s not the first the Matrix has been tampered with.
@@RAINBOWNIGTHMAREPRODUCTIONS Maybe. I mean, why would you believe that the Master is a reliable source of information? The only incarnations of the Master who have been NEUTRAL on the D&D scale were the child Master, the War King (the Eigth Doctor Adventure novels), and Missy (who was amazing!) Sacha Dhawan's Master says that he wiped out Gallifrey... what, because he had a temper tantrum? Why would you believe that he wouldn't lie to cause the Doctor suffering and/or confusion?
@@RAINBOWNIGTHMAREPRODUCTIONS The Trial of the Time Lord arc with the 6th Doctor proves that the Gallifreyan Matrix has been tampered with before, and given that the Master gave the Whittaker Doctor a guided tour in said Matrix whose to say he didn't make a few alterations beforehand.
Spyfall ending rubbed me the wrong way mostly because you had all the doctors saving their home then suddenly the Master brought it all down it didn't feel right or justified for me
Ikr I dislike what they did with series 11 and 12 I hope they can retcon some of the show and just say the 12th doctor was just dreaming as he was rejecting regeneration or something
It’s rough because I feel like the entire “New Who” era felt like a journey to return home and bring back the Doctor’s people... then here we are... the Doctor herself destroying her planet completely
Winter Phoenix it’s like how I felt how dumb the Sequel trilogy was by killing the new Jedi and blowing up my the New Republic just to do Rebels vs empire 2.
plus how is the master alive?! the fact that it just hasn’t been explained and suddenly they are the biggest villain of the series pisses me off.
It’s annoying that this series was so good up until the final, and even then if you remove The Doctor being The Timeless Child, it is a great episode. If the Master was the Timeless Child, it would explain his anger better.
If the Master discover who the child was (not the Doctor someone else), the Doctor may fall to an equal level, and they like Peter and Missy gain a strange alliance.
If the Master revealed The Doctor was the Explorer, it would make her question herself more than what happened in the episode and maybe even lead to an arc of finding the child and helping them.
Literally just saying the Timelords discover the Timeless Child and took there ability, and leaving it there would have been better than saying The Doctor is the Timeless Child.
I am expecting/hoping a retcon in season 13, were it turns out the Master was lying. Better yet, the Master survived the explosion, revealing he did so because he is the Timeless Child, and lied to the Doctor in hopes that it would cause her to fall down to his level, full of hatred and rage that the universe would of felt if not for Ruth Doctor. Doing so because like Missy said they want there friend back.
This would also reopen the Ruth storyline, and lead to them fixing the plot hole of the Tardis. Because so far it is implied she is a pre Harknal Doctor, but her Tardis being a police box doesn’t make sense if that is the case, as The First Doctor had the chameleon circuit fail, making it the blue box.
My head cannon, to make it accurate is the series 2b theory, I believe it is called, where the second Doctor work for the timelords (now regerating into Ruth in that time) before regerating into the third Doctor, (having their memory erased to forget there work after leaving and hiding on Earth (what Ruth did))
I remember watching Praxeus and feeling so much more invested in Gabriella, a one-off side character, than any of the actual TARDIS team. Still hope we get her as a stowaway on the TARDIS at some point like the box can go anywhere and she’s a travel vlogger come ON Chibnall.
Fiona I had the same feeling with the random couple in the Dalek new year special. They were better than the regular companions.
@@thefonzkiss Yes, those two archaeologists (or whatever they were) were excellent.
Agree that a lot of the time the side characters are way more interesting than the companions. I would have gladly watched The Doctor travel around with Ada Lovelace and Noor Khan instead of Ryan, Graham, and Yaz. Gabriella is a bit weird though. Her girlfriend/friend/travel partner/whatever dies horribly and she doesn't seem to care. Just happily goes off into the sunset as the third wheel in the cop and astronaut's relationship and decides she's gonna start a new blog? WTF?
Thats what all of Chibnal's era has felt like as well: (almost) good
(almost) good (until it isn't)
Nah most of it was pretty far from good
The Timeless Child. Exactly the same up till the reveal.
Doctor: What happened to the child?
Master: Oh doctor really? Haven't you worked this out yet? ... The child is me. I am the timeless child.
Doctor: no, no you're not. Can't be.
Please tell me, why isn't this the real thing?!!!
@@marionbaggins because they want to make the doctor special?
Still don’t get why the master wasn’t the child. It would’ve answered a lot of questions about him (like why he isn’t dead for a start) and wouldn’t have destroyed the show. It instead would’ve opened a lot of doors for future arcs with the master
Matthew Duncan even better, they could do that reveal and then the big plot twist at the end is that they both are actually the children. It would make their dynamic even greater. I saw someone mention that they could have the doctor and master’s roles of good and evil switch back in forth in the past until finally we see the reason that set the doctor on the path of good: maybe her love for planet earth made the master jealous or something. Really anything is better than what actually happened.
@@thecountofmontecristo2796 Which is stupid because the doctor was already special. The issue is now that she's special because of some deus ex machina 'chosen one' nonsense instead of being special because of her achievements.
The new master feels like an in-between of Simm's master and missy. He has the sadism of Simm's master and the insanity of Missy. I could believe that he's an in-between for those two.
"This whole sequence is framed as if the Doctor faces an impossible moral choice (to) destroy her home and the people she once called her race for the sake of the universe... but in actuality, it seems as if the Doctor's only concern was blowing herself up, as she literally just lets Ko Sharmus take his own life, and escape(s) in the TARDIS"
Fucking hell, lol. I thought I'd ran out of things to disappoint me about this episode, but boom, there's another one.
himynameisben95 I remember Susan and she is a nice girl
I was shocked to see the Doctor run away from the bomb (and her own unresolved moral dilemma) the way she did. What was even worse, she knowingly let a brave human die in her place. Since when has she ever been such a self-serving coward? Her behavior was totally out of character! IMHO the scene should have been written very differently. It would have made more sense if the Doctor hadn't known about the bomb and had escaped Gallifrey BEFORE the detonation. Same end result, same sacrifice of the noble human, but the Doctor would have still been acting like her (hitherto heroic) self.
Can't believe she did that to poor Granda Joe...yet another reason for me to dislike her character!
I feel like what I lost most in the ending to the series was the fact that they made the Doctor essentially an immortal god, citing that she's had countless regenerations and basically birthed the Time Lords altogether. What bothers me most about that is that it completely changed my view of who the Doctor is, but in a really sloppy way. My idea of the Doctor was that they were an everyday timelord that decided to rebel and travel the universe; they have their faults but overall try to do the right thing. But now knowing that they're immortal and practically the most important person in the universe, it distances their character and makes A LOT of the series redundant.
I feel the exact same way. What made the Doctor special was that he chose to be different from other Timelords. The Doctor wasn't born the most important being in the universe, rather he became an important being in the universe because his actions. The Timeless Children undermines that and gives the Doctor a "Chosen One" narrative that we have seen many times before both good and bad, but The Timeless Children "Chosen One" story even makes the other bad "Chosen One" stories better by comparison.
Ok, this video and the newer “Timeless Child Doesn’t Work” video earned you a sub and notifications. You, sir, know what you’re talking about. Very much enjoyed this review.
I agree with all of this. Although I do think there is something interesting in the concept of not being defined by your past, and how this is exemplifies the fundamental difference between the value systems of The Doctor and The Master. But… It wasn't really explored. This is my own head-canon trying to make sense of a finale to an otherwise reasonably solid series.
12 had potential. I’m hoping series 13 blows our minds. 13th Doctor deserves it, we deserve it
It annoyed me we were getting a new master after only twelve episodes without the character, especially considering how good an ending The Doctor Falls gave the Master.
Oh I disagree. Sasha was absolutely tremendous. My fave in nu who for sure.
agree, this master is just... so expressive.
At least Sasha did an amazing job as the character. I would’ve been more annoyed had he been terrible as well as the character being brought back
Completely agree The Master had a perfect send off with him killing himself, like yeah obviously The Master will come back but not 12 episodes later. And it hurts that this is ignored and it annoys me how the isn’t explained to the causal viewer I had to put effort in and google it to find out so dumb.
Sacha Dhawan is an amazing Master, he has that energy about him while also being sadistic and those two combinations make him really scary, something that is similar to Simm, but the character is ultimately portrayed differently
timeless child ruined the point of the doctor, and this brings up another question why was the other doctors tardis a police box
Wow, why didn't I think about that? Of course it wouldn't be a friking Police Box! Thanks for making me realice this
Also how would the doctor be able to have chidleren with a gallifrean despite not being born there which biologically doesn’t make sense
@@DarthCompetent that's a really good question. Maybe because they took the regeneration, they also assimilated enough similar DNA to be able to at least reproduce? It's the only thing that comes to mind 🤷🏻♀️
@@keynobi9258 Yeah fair enoigh
It all feels like a remake of the first 10 seasons, just with worse stories, acting, score and fan service. I doubt this era will go beyond season 13 if the ratings continue to drop.
REMEMBER, they have our license fee! The BBC can do whatever the hell they want lmao
@@kimm2207 Thank God the Tories are thinking of scrapping it then
I'm sorry for so many comments but I'm emotional. I think Yaz has the potential to be a brilliant Martha Jones-esque companion, she has the brilliance for it. She should be the lone companion
Ascension of the Cyberman had this exact problem. It was a great episode with a really exciting subplot about a boy's life in Ireland.
You wonder: how does this relate to the story?
Then a brilliant cliffhanger where he is the only one who's aged and then has his memory wiped.
You wonder: how can this be the case... It doesn't make any sense...
Then in the next episode it turns out all to be something the time lords put in the matrix to cover what really happened.
You wonder: did I just spend 20 minutes of the last episode watching a metaphor???
Lmao I’ve kind of forgotten that episode I just thought it was a strange period of the Doctor’s life where they lived in Ireland
The ending of ep 1 had the gang, currently on a spy mission, falling through the sky in a plane. Hence "Spyfall".
The worst part of it really is the writers trying to be "down with the kids"
Dude you're so right.
How do you do fellow kids?
"whats up fam"
What up homies
I mean, both the Chibnall Series’ have been utterly poor in comparison to the previous Series 1-10
In terms of S1-5 and the Capaldi Era, I'm inclined to agree that it doesn't compare, but when compared to Series 6 & 7, I'm not sure where I stand on that.
@Spectrum Storms I'm intrigued by the amount of criticism 6 & 7 are receiving, which I personally find still very good, might they not be 2-5; Matt Smith's Doctor had me all along with quite few iconic episodes and whole story archs along this path.
Whereas I have my reservations during Capaldi's era, mainly because of Clara's story/ies.
So tell me, I'd like to listen!
@@ncg7987 That pretty accurately sums up a lot of the criticism of 6 & 7. There is also a bit about Moffat not properly utilizing payoff and about how in 6 & 7, the Doctor becomes the center of the universe, rather than just a part of it.
Dr. Who thrives based on the show runner and the writers they manage. Some do better jobs than others. They all should have a different style imo. That will obviously lead to people not liking certain incarnations, even if their vision was executed well.
13:22 Just. WOOOOOOW!!!
That´s such an awesome interaction between the two, why did I miss that? Seriously, I think this stands out so that a lot more people schould actually be talking about that!
I didnt really *like* the character of 13 by the end of this series
her arrogance was never really portrayed as a character flaw which I would've really liked if for once the companions FINALLY resisted her after she put herself at the top of the team and did whatever she wanted but nah, it was more portrayed as a moment of individuality which really pissed me off that she would be so selfish to the "fam"
and one of the worst parts came at the end as multiple times she had no opposition to just blowing up all her enemies except like 1 moment of hesitation in the finale which predictably ended in the old man sacrificing himself instead which just made me believe that the doctors hesitation was only for her own life, but if *one* person might die from cyberium, suddenly not only the doctor, but half of the companions also think his life is worth a war that destroys humanity and leads to the events of the timeless children.
The doctor experienced genocide on the entire earth and was the reason the time lords become cybermen yet has almost no empathy about it because she saved *one* person many years earlier. She completely ignored the warnings of jack and the companions and STILL they follow her, with yaz being completely obsessed over her in the end.
If there’s one thing that encapsulates by disdain for Chibnall who, I’m bitter that I have to describe doctor who as “just okay.”
honestly, i'm hoping that they go for the cheap twist that the master simply lied to her and that either he is the timeless child and couldnt deal with that knowledge and pushed it onto her in a fucked up attempt at seeing his own history from a third perspective, or that the master lied about there being only one timeless child, and that they both actually are the timeless children (as two separate characters, not as the master is like a future doctor incarnation)
The main problem I have is the way that Gallifrey and the timelords were handled even before the timeless child. Destroying Gallifrey felt so rushed and anticlimactic.
I sort of half agree and half not. Destroying Gallifrey off-camera was anticlimactic, but it was also very effective and impactful just turning up there and *BAM.* No big battle. No chance to save it. Just: It died when you weren't looking. Traumatic.
Mind you, I always thought RTD made the right call in destroying Gallifrey in the first place and feel Moffat should never have brought it back. So I'm not too horrified to see it gone again...
irrevenant3 it also wasn't explained how the master single handely destroyed one the most advanced civilizations ever. I kinda feel the legacy of gallifrey deserved better.
@@SuperMaester I thought I submitted this already, but I can't see it now, so sorry if this is a dupe...
Personally I don't have a problem with it. The Master has repeatedly been shown to be brilliant, imaginative and ruthless. Evil's answer to The Doctor. The Time Lords have repeatedly been shown to be a hidebound, passive and unimaginative civilisation well past their prime. I don't need to be shown specifically how the Master curbstomped them because I know he could easily do so if he wanted to.
I get that not showing it onscreen could seem disrespectful to the legacy of Gallifrey. But I think it was the right call story-wise. *How* Gallifrey was destroyed isn't the focus of the story - the impact of that destruction and the reasons it was destroyed are. I don't think you could meaningfully show the destruction of Gallifrey in less than half an episode. And in a 10-episode season, I think that screentime is better spent elsewhere.
Interestingly, RTD came to basically the same conclusion back in season 1. He also had Gallifrey destroyed off-camera prior to the start of the season. And again that let us focus on the most story-important thing - how that destruction affected the Doctor. Also, not showing us the conflict made that conflict more epic. Moffat's attempts to put the Time War on screen were always going to pale compared to the image we'd built up of it in our minds. And they did. IMO Master v Gallifrey could also never be done justice on screen and Chibnall made the right call in not trying to.
There are downsides to that approach, but overall I think Chibnall and RTD made the best possible call.
@@irrevenant3 yes, but when RTD destroyed Gallifrey it was through a whole war that ravaged all of time and space. Even if it wasn't shown. The master just kills Gallifrey super easy. And as someone who had never seen the classics (it's really hard to find them anywhere) i was interested in exploring Gallifrey more, and i thought the Doctor's arc about the destruction of Gallifrey was pretty much complete.
@@galarstar052 We don't know how hard it was for the Master to destroy Gallifrey - it happened off-camera.
And like I said above, I never viewed the destruction of Gallifrey as an 'arc' - I viewed it as the new normal. I think we're in 'agree to disagree' territory now though...
my reactions to the last two seasons of DW, confused, sad, irritated, angry, in denial and rejection
I still think series 12 as its up and downs but my biggest complaint is that there is no "I'm the doctor" meaning that I don't know who this doctor is . If anything series 13 seems like it might be the real reveal .
I don't understand why no one seems to mention the fact that in Series 11 the evil cloth literally calls the Doctor the Timeless Child. It's stated right there and then. So how is that information a big reveal in series 12?
I enjoyed the series overall and am looking forward to 13 but the final episode was just nonsensical.
Yup...
REMNANT: You lead but you're scared, too, for yourself and for others.
DOCTOR: Yeah, well, who isn't?
REMNANT: Afraid of your own newness. We see deeper, though, further back. The Timeless Child.
DOCTOR: What did you just say?
REMNANT: She doesn't know.
DOCTOR: What are you talking about? What can you see?
REMNANT: We see what's hidden even from yourself. The outcast, abandoned and unknown.
(Transcript credit to "The Doctor Who Transcripts" website)
@@ftumschk Thank you! I'll admit it's only implicit that the Timeless Child is the Doctor, but that's about as heavily implicit you can go without becoming explicit!
The way the Master was revealed used to be clever:
Simm's: Hid his identity in a fobwatch to escape the trauma of the Time War. Reconnected with the watch upon subconscious implant of memory by Ten accidentally showing it to him. Takes over Ten's TARDIS, escapes to Earth and assumes control as British Prime Minister.
Gomez: Changed gender, disguised herself as an android that actually fooled Twelve until the last ten minutes. Transformed the corpses of London into ressurrected Cybermen, revealed herself as they took over the city.
Dhawan: HAHAHA YEAH YOU'RE RIGHT, I LIED ON A PIECE OF PAPER, SURPRISE IT'S ME AGAIN I'M INSANE FOR SOME REASON, DESPITE ME ACTUALLY TRYING TO CHANGE, OH AND I NOW DRESS, LAUGH AND ACT LIKE THE JOKER WAHOOOO
This is a bit of a silly argument. Have you seen The kings Demon’s? The master in a wig and a French accent. A disguise it does not make
Also the master has always been insane
And I’m a bit tired of master reveals
Oh look it’s the master again
Sorry I know you don’t particular like it but it’s not terrible
Is this what being Who Fan in 1985 was like? God I hope 13 doesn't have to wait 20 years for excellent audio dramas to show her stuff
I wouldn’t be surprised if the show is cancelled after next season. It’s a shame we are gonna have to wait 2 decades for a good doctor again
@@matthewduncan8523 nah, it's the era of internet and Doctor Who is a worldwide phenomenon now; it's probably better for them to fire Chinball and retcon all his stupid ideas
MakiPcr at this point it’s obvious the BBC don’t care about Doctor Who anymore. Removing Chibnall would be a good move so it won’t happen sadly. The best we have coming I’d guess is fan produced content and not a lot of actually good official stuff
Well that was nice to watch. Coherent, cogent, properly critical but without some bloke just shouting at me. Lovely. Would you like to address that age old problem of 'the crowded Tardis' next?
I loved this series even thought there are flaws I fell in love with the show again
The Doctor has already seen the total destruction of Gallifrey. Matt Smith and the motorcycle ride up the building was amazing. Here, having motorcycles at hand just seemed like "hey, let's have a motorcycle scene now."
Thank you for the Community reference.
#SixSeasonsAndAMovie
thank god, a doctor who channel who actually see's the improvements, in which series 12 has done. it obviously isn't the best season ever but miles better than 11.
BENNNNIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEE!!1 is that you? fcuk chibnall
in the same way that stage 3 cancer is miles better than being dead
Definitely better than series 11
They're on the right track
Ryan: "Hey! That fella's shooting at us!"
Graham - an embodiment of what our mind is saying: "YES! I'VE GOT THAT!"
"galifrey falls no more" is a crack of shit now
The title is actually "No, Gallifrey falls more"
I cant believe the doctor had a whole episode about how she freed a god who completely outsmarted and trapped her only for the shortest conclusion ever of "she used the fingers cos sonic"
Haven't watched the video because I haven't seen the series but that's why I'm commenting.
The title actually makes me interested/hopeful in watching it at some point!
I saw the first episode of the series when it aired and it was so bad I just haven't been arsed to watch anymore. Maybe I will now
BaileyZKerr take my advice. Don’t
I feel like they really need to take inspiration from the 13th doctor comic, because, wow, those are actually really good.
I approached Series 12 with low, low expectations, and most the time I didn't even bother to watch it live. So I already knew the spoilers half the time before watching. It is perhaps for this reason that I actually quite LIKED Orphan 55. But every other time an episode pulled a fan-servicey twist (Gallifrey is destroyed, Jack is back, Ruth is the Doctor) I rolled my eyes because I didn't trust the show to take it in a competent direction.
Plus, I didn't see what was so great about Spyfall. While it wasn't 3 episodes in 1 like last season, it somehow ended up being 5 or 6 episodes in 2. Not a significant improvement in my mind. And I never found the Lone Cyberman a compelling villain. For me, the Cybus Cubermen (which kept only the brains of their human selves) are the definitive version of the Cybermen. It makes no sense for it to be metal parts glued to an otherwise-functional human body, with working eyeballs and everything.
And it never made sense that this would inspire Shelley to write Frankenstein, because the fact that it was made from the bodies of multiple humans is an inconsequential detail compared to the fact that, I dunno, it's made of freaking METAL. It says a lot that the Doctor Who writing team thinks this idea is good enough to use *twice.* That is the level of barrel-scraping we're at now.
Finally, to address another point from the video, I don't think Series 12 ever committed to portraying the Doctor as a properly flawed character. She makes mistakes, yes, but it never outright condems her for it. She can be wrong, but never actually _in_ the wrong. The show still wants us to believe she's Miss Moral Purity, despite never bothering to establishing her as that. And her "socially awkward" moment with Graham was the final nail in the coffin of her characterisation.
When the Doctor was revealed as the Timeless Child, I didn't feel disappointed, just oddly vindicated. Because maybe this would make others equally aware of just how bad the show has gotten (something I've felt very strongly about since Resolution).
When "Fugitive of Judoon" happen I was like, "You know what this is Doctor! You experience this!" and in the end I was right and ecstatic at the foreshadowing. Jodie's performance of the character was way better that season 11 and I feel it! This season makes me fall in love with the doctor again.
For me, "Timeless children" is just an excuse to explain why The Doctor can regenerate more than a "normal" timelords.
even though Time of the Doctor already explained why this is the case
my feeling towards the timeless child is that i think it's more the 2nd act twist then the 3rd act finale there's still plenty to answer that maybe it's not suppose to make scene.....that being said it's not any good really the timeless child should have been the master it just makes more scene the timelord who always wanted imortality always had it and was used by his people would explain his new hatred and evil
Hey pleb, ever thought about that they couldn’t use sky fall because there is an actual spy movie by the same name
Ugh! This doctor was so “forced into your face” and a lot of “watch this, I’m gonna be clever! Right? Get it!??”
So desperately dropped the ball. I love the actors but hate their...predicaments and decisions.
The actual best thing *not* in the 12th season is that they did not spell out how Ashad inspired Frankenstein. Other showrunners would have had the doctor spoonfeed that to us, but Chibnall trusted his audience to be smart enough to figure it out without hand holding. That's what I loved about this particular series.
If the Master had been the Timeless child instead, the season would be so much better.
Can't we all enjoy Doctor Who for what it is and not the plots and everything?
Ahh maan the more you make me see it, the more i see the 6th doctor all over her portrayal. Arrogant, rude to his friends. I hope series 13 fully develops her.
this tardis crew is the original tardis crew from 1963. sort of. Grahame is barbera, the voice of reason, the sounding board, the negotiator. Yas is ian chesterton, the action hero, independent. ryan is susan. the jr. sidekick developing and coming of age.
Honestly only good part was captain jack in ep 5. I love that character and his dialog always makes me laugh
What I love about the Spyfall cliffhanger is that it did what RTD used to do which was re edit the ending to make the cliffhanger seem deliberately weak in order to prevent spoilers and increase the shock factor. And further still I remember reading the advance review of Spyfall in which they said the cliffhanger was confused and lacklustre attached to a better episode. I actually thought oh typical chibnall at least the rest of the episode might be good but then when that cliffhanger came I was considerably more excited than I would have been if I read an advanced review which said there was a jaw dropping cliffhanger. It played on the audiences expectations that the typical course would be no villains and even got people to say exactly that that was what was happening to make the cliffhanger as impactful as possible.
I’d even put the Spyfall cliffhanger in my top 5 cliffhangers of new who:
5. The pandorica opens cliffhanger
4. The Utopia cliffhanger
3. The Spyfall cliffhanger
2. The empty child cliffhanger
1. The bad wolf cliffhanger
You've lost me at the "Spyfall" was good xD those two episodes were the moment I finally gave up on hope and the series.
Vlad-Horia “I’ve had an upgrade!” fucking killed me. I remember pausing the episode and smacking my face into my pillow about 10 times before continuing. From that point on.. I watched a further 4 episodes. Episodes 5, 8, 9 and...... *10*
@@MrGreaves It's just a line. No one complained when Missy said it back in Magician's Apprentice.
Ben Warburton they did. PC garbage statements like that back in s8-10 were 100% criticised.
@@MrGreaves Oh for God's sake, it's not a pc statement, it's a one-off line that they would be funny. They're not making a militant stance that women should rule the world or something. They probably put it in there because they knew some people would get really annoyed by it, that's all. Getting upset about it just means you're playing into their hands.
@@Ben-vf5gk even besides the gender factor of it, the Doctor has always claimed superiority over their predecessors so calling themselves an upgrade is just a new way of doing what they've done for multiple incarnations
Oh yeah, the Kasavin (?), such fantastic new villains. Can't wait to see more of them..
JUSTICE FOR MY BOY PA'TING
The Timeless Child storyline also suffers from what I call "Lost Syndrome". It's a modern trope where a mystery is slowly teased out, then the big reveal happens - only to ask more questions than it answers. 'Flux' followed this up with just enough answers to string the viewers along, before dumping us with an "It doesn't matter anyway" explanation as we got at the end of 'The Timeless Children'. The thing is, for this trope to work the final mystery needs to be revealed in a satisfying way.
Do we really want to know what the universe the Timeless Child Dr came from was like, and what her history up to that point was and why she was left in our universe? And was Chibnall actually planning to answer these questions? Considering he keeps coming back to "It doesn't matter anyway" I think we have our answer.
I liked Series 12, but I am also not a fan of The Timless Children. I scoff at the people who think the bad writing is done because of a woke agenda. It's a silly theory
is this sarcasm?
@@Rinesmyth no
To each their own. I just couldnt get into it. Some episodes where ok now that I put my torch and pitchfork away. But still not my cup of tea, especially after the cluster of the timeless child.
@@blindedjourneyman I agree that it's a mess
I don’t think the woke thing is an agenda, but it is trying to be woke! It’s not the cause of the bad writing. That’s Chris Chibnall
Just finished Series 12, amazing. Great Villains and great story.
Outside of the master I really didnt enjoy that much of spyfall. Big improvement? Sure. Memorable? Not really.
Finally, someone who phrases it like I would actually 100% agree with! Meaning the video title.
I really like this series. I think there were definitely more hits than misses, at least, say, with Praxeus, it was a hit, but it was kind've awkward and uninteresting and effortless.
It has lower lows than series 11, but higher highs than series 11.
Broadly agree. Orphan 55 was truly dire but I liked all othef episodes with a couple of stone cold classics.
I get some people don't like how the show is now but it just seems like they are watching a different series to me... Chibnall is never the best writer, we all know this, but he has got better and I at least like his scripts now (which I never did before he was showrunner and rarely in season 11)
I found comment on twitter about how in the latest episode Captain Jack talked to Yaz about how "One doesn't decide when to stop travelling with the Doctor" only to have that apparently contradicted when Ryan and Graham _decided_ to do just that. However, I don't think Jack meant _every_ companion who travelled with the Doctor, we've seen several companions make a decision to leave the Tardis, but the _really_ important ones, the _main_ ones have always had bittersweet or even tragic partings. Rose, Amy, Donna, Clara, Bill (I hate to do Martha a disservice, but I see her rather as a rebound companion after Rose). These are the companions that _loved_ the Doctor and whom The Doctor loved. (I could go into Classic Who, but this post is already an essay as it is!)
And that's when it struck me- they're setting up Yaz to be the new Rose or Amy, to be that one special companion that we all ship, but know that it'll break our hearts in the end.
I'm sorry, I'm not feeling it.
When we were introduced to Rose, the Doctor came to her rescue, like a knight in shining armour and soon shared with her (and us the audience) his recent trauma. With Donna he had, in his words, a mate, shorn of the romantic obstacles he had with Rose and Martha. With Amy, he was her imaginary friend, returned to her as an adult. From the outset (although, to be fair, it was in Donna's _re_-introduction) the bond between Doctor and companion was established.
Now take Yaz's introduction. The Doctor hardly gives her (or Ryan or Graham) a second glance. To me, they've always felt... perfunctory. "Well, The Doctor has companions, so let's give her these guys". To me, there was no "spark", no sense of being whisked off their feet and into a fantastic adventure by a charming magician. The attitude of "the fam" has always been "OK...cool" when it should be "oh wow!"
And that's fine, not all of The Doctor's companions need to go on an epic journey of self discovery, sometimes you just go along for the ride, but have Yaz suddenly be the "new Rose" after being just one of three passengers for two series feels _forced._
I don’t think this era even comes close to being good. Ever. Jodie Whittaker has been good in other things, but a Doctor she does not make.
I haven't watched the series since the first season of the Capaldi era, I just dropped it like a hot stone and never really knew why - something just didn't feel the same about this show anymore. What shocks me though is that the series is still gassing on about Gallifrey. It gets destroyed, brought back, sent back into a pocket of time, brought back again, and then destroyed again. I just wish they'd settle on what they want to do, because at this point it seems exhausting. There are so many narrative possibilities having Gallifrey back since it has been out of the game for so long in the reboot era but I guess we have to settle back into the Doctor and the Master being the 'last of their kind' rut.
Maybe I'm missing something because I haven't watched the series in ages but it all seems very trite.