The Whoniverse mankind that Rose and Jackie ended up with in Doomsday is the ppl that became the Timelords after thier Earth was stolen away from thier Whoniverse and taken over to the classic Whoniverse where it became Mondas. & Tony Tyler was the birthname of the Doctor. Can I prove this? Yes. Because the classic Earth was stolen from the classic Whoniverse and returned to the new Whoniverse and the classic earth mankind is slowly becoming the new rulers over time (after the classic Earth falls to the Daleks in 5145AD. and it becomes new Skaro.) Mankind is saved by its President, with his newly built timemachine RIVERS to Trenzalore (the former terraformed Gallifrey). There is much more. But ill just mention Rassilons ascention device (aka the new key to time) How the dying (Jon Simms) Master saw it as his only way to remain existing so he activated it at the end of the Timewar... Thus ascendong himself and everyone in the Gallifreyan high counsil. But. as Gallifrey was frozen at same time. The rest on Gallifrey became trapped in an Schrödinger like state..BOTH being alive and ascended at the same time = they can only move around when they arent observed... Yes... Those guys... = The true enemies in the Timewar between the Timelords and the Daleks wasnt the Daleks at all. It was the former rulers over time manupulating the Daleks... The Ragnarookian Rassilons original ppl. Because our mankind is in an early Timewar with the former Timelords. .... Give this above a real thought and then realise the Doomsday in Doomsday episode was the June 26th 2010. and when 10th was cut off from Rose in thier call...The new Whoniverse formed outside and around the TARDIS... All the wedding related stuff from Donna x2 as the bride to the Williams wedding + wedding dress and engagement ring are signals that the TARDIS travel between these 2 Whoniversis. (classic to new or vice versa; twice in Eleventh hour)
"The Timeless Children is an episode where The Master takes The Doctor to Gallifrey in order to show her a PowerPoint presentation that ends with a slide saying 'You were adopted'." - Jay Exci
Which ultimately makes no difference to how/what/why the Doctor does what they do. If it was the Master's backstory, at least there's now a backstory *why* he killed all the other Timelords and is a generally twisted character.
I could buy that as a mean-spirited and incredibly petty thing to do if the character was GlaDoS, a malevolent AI that enjoys doing that kind of thing. Can't really see the Master doing that.
"Don't you know who it is?" "It's me." "No, *laughs insanely*, it's me." It would have made so much more sense for the Master to be the Timeless Child: Gives them a reason to have burned down Gallifrey, gives them an explanation for having returned now and always, justifies their eternal unquenchable rage, implicates the doctor in their suffering, gives the Doctor ego problems from feeling inferior...
Oh hey that actually isn’t a bad idea. I like the angle of the Master despising how they have a bit of Doctor running through their veins, but that would’ve been GREAT.
The Master burnt down Gallifrey and killed everyone on it because all Time Lords had a piece of the Doctor in them. Killing them, to him, was like getting back at the Doctor.
Exactly, when I was thinking who the timeless child could be, I thought one choice would be fantastic whilst the other would be disappointing. It would have been such a fun angle, the sociopath who thinks they are the centre of everything, actually turns out to be right for a change. Would also have been interesting that the master, as missy, had been slightly redeemed in season 10 but learning this truth sent him/her straight back to mass murderer. It could also be said that the thing that the master saw in the time vortex that drove him mad, was a glimpse of his previous life of torture. It would have worked in many aspects.
Yeah this would of been better, and I hope for next season somehow the master returns and basically there is a plot that says the Master was attempting to make the Doctor fall apart believing their entire life is a lie. But because of the (Ruth) Doctor, nothing happened so he reveals he is actually the timeless child or it was all a lie. Even if it is a cheap escape, it reopens who is Ruth storyline and brings the Doctor back down to the traveller, helping out where they can.
If the Master was the timeless child: -What he glimpsed in the time vortex that turned him insane was the previous torturous experiments -Missy (who had been redeemed partially) had a reason to become a mass murderer again -Gives him a reason to have burnt Gallifrey -Justifies his megalomania, anger, and desire for revenge on the universe -Makes the Doctor involved in his eternal torment, which didnt start with the drums after all, but Tecteun, as she can only regenerate due to his torture -Makes the Doctor inferior
Additionally, there's that line about The Master hating The Doctor because "Part of YOU is inside ME!" Since this (the power of regeneration) has only benefitted The Master, it's doubly childish for this to be why The Master is angry at The Doctor for this. However, having it be The Master, and changing the line to something like "Part of ME is inside YOU - Something you are not entitled to!" would be vastly more understandable.
I love that idea! Plus it means that the master can be in the show as much as they want. The whole Doctor being the timeless child ruins Matt Smith’s regeneration because he got more regeneration energy from the time lords. Plus you would think some of the Time Lords would know that she is the timeless child so it wouldn’t make sense for them to give extra regenerations
the Master should have been the Timeless Child, it works with their character and might actually make them sympathetic by making them someone who was forcibly adopted by the gallifreyans, cruelly experimented on and then used even further for various ends, including the drumbeat later seen in the end of time. You could also much more easily explain continuity issues since the Master has a less complicated continuity: that time the Master ran out of regenerations? That was an experiment by the Time Lords where they tried to cut off their ability to regenerate. It could also just explain the Master’s capacity for survival, might make them a much more nuanced and sympathetic villain and, frankly, actually has a theme to it, that being the subversion of that same theme of the chosen one, making the Doctor’s decision to stand against them all the more powerful, or even their earnest attempts to help them that much more powerful
I think it would have been best for the Timeless Child to be a completely new character, so that it doesn't erase decades of pre established character with the Master and the Doctor, due to the fact that the Doctor can't be the Other and the Timeless Child at the same time, so either erase 32+ years of lore, or say that the master once again lied to the Doctor.
It so fits with the master character more then the drs it would give us backstory on why the master is so insane and why he hates the time lords so much
imagine having a show about an alien with two hearts and incredible amount of inteligence, can regenarte and has a ship that can travel any where in space and time and going " we need to make them more special"
Well those things were special enough when the doctor was just twelve white men. Now the doctor is a stunning and brave WOMAN, the whole back story needs to be elevated to keep up with her new stunning bravery.
@@jeckjeck3119 The Doctor is less relatable because she's now been a super special person who is superior to those around here from birth, which normal people can't relate to. The Doctor is no longer in danger since she's literally immortal.
@@sparksparklez Aren't companions (usually) the ones we should feel related to? Sorry but Bringer of Darkness, Destroyer of Worlds, lord president, fashion disaster of 5 galaxies... He/she never really felt like something I (can't speak for people I don't know) should relate to. What I am saying is that we relate to doctor thru companions. Not thru who/what she/he is. EDIT: And humor. Like 12th said: Don't cut out all the jokes.
@@jeckjeck3119 A larger than life character can still be relatable. In the Doctor's case, they were relatable because they had become someone special through their own efforts rather than just being born special.
What if the master was the timeless child and that realization and torture drove him insane and that why he never dies and always pops back up and it would explain why he'd want to destroy galifrey
That would actually make more sense than having the Doctor be the timeless child. During the Tennant years, the Master was said to have gone "crazy" after appearing into the time vortex as a child.....maybe they could have said that (as a child) the time vertex allowed him to remember what they did to him.
Adding to this what if the dr was the original tectayun and that’s why the master hates him so much and the master telling the dr she’s the timeless child was just the masters twisted sense of humour because he’s insane from the time lords experiments which to him where torture and what if the regeneration for the master was painful because the power was taken from him and given to the shobogans also the word shobogan makes me cringe because it makes me think of bogans from Australia 🤣🤣🤣
That'd be a good step...but I won't watch it again unless they retcon the events of that episode out of existence entirely, and say none of it happened (including the cyber time lord nonsense and the "Gallifrey destroyed again" nonsense).
This is my headcanon regardless. It makes perfect sense to why he would be so angry and quick to return to his pre-missy ways. The thing he has been fighting for all his life (immortalitliy) is something he had by birthright which the timelords steal off him and to make it worse then wipe his memory, conviently turn him mad just to benefit their ends. The only way to get anywhere close to this was for him to earn his timelord status and 13 lives. No wonder he burnt Gallifrey down.
Honestly I'd be perfectly happy if the next show runner simply treated the Chibnall era like what it is: a fan fic. You don't need to explain or retcon a fan fic out of existence, you don't need to acknowledge a fan fic at all. It's just automatically not canon. Pick up where Capaldi left off and keep right on going without so much as a nod that this ever happened. Perfect solution.
The Master should've been the Timeless Child. It would explain his obsession with immortality, he always instinctually feeling that he should never die. His deep, unyielding hatred of the Timelords. Hell, make Rassalon more of a villain by saying the drumbeat implanted into the Master's head was what helped jar his memory loose. It would also work with his relationship with The Doctor, Time Lords being the thing he hates the most but finding a truly good friend in one and the conflict of feelings.
It would also mean that everything he went through to stay alive including back pre revival when at one point he was a wrecked shell of a man was uneccessary and entirely due to the timelords locking away his regeneration ability.
@@plazasta if they could turn it on in themselves it would stand to resson they could turn it off or at least suspend it in him. And that's a reason to hate them. Look at him in the deadly assassin.
@@SpiderAds-86 but no, they're Time Lords, he'd be a Timeless Child, not a Time Lord. Just because they can do it to themselves doesn't mean they can disable it in him
Well, I'm not gonna act like Doctor Who has always kept perfect continuity, but to be fair, that was a different TARDIS that she entered. The Morbius Doctors and Ruth all had their own TARDIS, and after their memory was wiped, the 1st Doctor (Hartnell) stole his own TARDIS.
@@WiloPolis03 Tardis is irrelevant entirely, it's the Doctor timeline, not the Tardis's. If the Doctor had died somewhere else, Clara still would have been able to enter the timestream. The Tardis just happened to be the location, and the location is irrelevant.
Clara went through the doctor's entire timeline BUT she never saw the War Doctor, so we can imagine some wibbly wobbly theory like she only go to the timeline of THE doctor and not the moment where the Doctor wasn't THE Doctor like before Hartnell and the War Doctor
One of the things ruined by this arc is River Song who became a time-lady by being conceived through the time vortex which is where the doctor said his people gained regeneration
@Julien Billard The Ruth reveal was an idea I though could also work, make her doubt her own past. And another plot twist for the Doctor, would be the Master revealing to her, that she had met the timeless child before and briefly traveled with them.
But if The Doctor didn't know the truth this whole time, this statement is untrue. They had no idea they were "born special". I seriously hate fandoms at this point honestly lol
@@autumwho still, it means they didn’t make him/herself a legend through their deeds and instead they were meant to be this amazing being and cheapens not only this doctor’s series but the story built by the other doctors’ series.
@@autumwho Well that's kind of the point the video is making, if by your logic the Doctor is still this random wonderer who's not special but chose to do good. Why did we need an entire series arc, 2 if you count Ghost Monument to merely add what is in the end some random backstory. If by your logic they're a random Timelord wondering the universe, write a series arc about them wondering the universe......... Davies and Moffat did it for 12-13 years on end. If they're still the same seemingly not special by birthright wonderer after a 2 series arc dedicated to rewriting their backstory as some mythical being from an unknown place who clearly had abilities beyond the Gallifreyans at that point making her different and special by birth, isn't that just a monumental waste of time? Your sticking with the established trope despite the inclusion of a backstory which clearly changes the original trope. It's like you want to include the new story but say it has no impact.........
@@autumwho right? Like, the fact that they were "born different" has no bearing on them becoming this extraordinary being, beyond the fact that they won't die. They still chose to travel the universe righting wrongs that they encountered and no amount of actually being an immortal from birth would change that.
The whole thing of the Master burning down Gallifrey felt so Chibnall, too. The Master has been a multifaceted character under Davies and Moffat who the Doctor believed had remnants of good. They were a character who wanted their old Friend back in 12. Who 12 dedicated a series to trying to rehabilitate. Who 10 had a heart-to-heart to about Gallifrey perishing. Who took on the Time Lords and let the Doctor stand aside in the End of Time. It feels like Chibnall didn't watch any of that when he decided the Master would just raze Gallifrey to the ground because he found out he had part of the Doctor's DNA. It would have been more interesting if he burned everything out of empathy for the Doctor or because he felt like it was *his* life that had been a lie.
all that and also the way the Spy Master doesn't even fit in canon timeline very well. he has to be after Missy based on things he knows, but Missy was firstly shot and secondly became Lumiat. It felt like the spy master was written as a copy of Saxon (personality-wise) completely ignoring Missy's redemption arc and growth. disappointing.
The Timeless Child as it's own character would've made an interesting villain for The Doctor to face on a reoccurring basis too. It would have every reason to want to exterminate every Time Lord
right? Imagine a person who has been experimented on for centuries (who says that regenerating is the only thing they stole?) and then has been basically forgotten somewhere in a basement, regenerating again and again without human contact, because they can't die? Imagine the insanity of starving to death a literal infinite number of times.
@@InaZeaAnaZazi I didn't even think about the "being forgotten" part. How evil would our version of the Timeless Child be, if it had been locked up in a cellar on Gallifrey, alone, and left to starve to death, only to regenerate and starve to death again for.... how many centuries?
In "Angels take Manhattan" the doctor heals River's broken wrist with his regeneration energy..... With the timeless child reveal, he can essentially heal all of his companions and anyone who gets injured around him... forever..... with 0 risk of running out of regeneration energy......
Dan M I’m not in any way protecting the “Timeless Child” arc, but I think he was able to heal River because she is a time lord (kind of) and can regenerate. So I assume that regeneration energy doesn’t work on humans.
Only IF the assumption is correct that this ability still IS active in "the child". Fueling so many regenerations over tens of thousands of years could have damaged it or minimized what energy "the child" has left and that will some day in the future be their cop out to "keep the question if the doctor survives this or not thrilling". Don't see it as a story told to it's completion, see it as a halfbaked brainfart that was thrown out there, but needs serious expansion to make sense and so most of the story isn't told yet.
ilikebacon As I understood it, in 9x01 and 9x02 regeneration energy didn’t resurrect daleks, it kinda “powered them up” or something, because the “sewers” weren’t actually dead.
3rd Doctor: Had no infinite regeneration but still prefered to lose one of his lives instead of letting any other people to go to the Planet of Spiders cuz it would kill them; 5th Doctor: Had no infinite regeneration and yet gave Peri the only antidote to the disease that was killing both of them and lost one more life; 9th Doctor: had no infinite regeneration, but chose to sacrifice his 9th life to save Rose ; 10th Doctor: had no infinite regeneration but gave his 10th life to save Willfred from the radiation; 11th Doctor: was going to die of old age stuck in a planet, but still decided to protect the people to the very end; 13th Doctor: Has infinite regeneration but still prefer to let an old man(who suffered his entire life in the Cyber-wars when he finaly had the chance to be free and live the rest of his life happily) to sacrifice himself in her place without a thinking twice.
the 10th doctor's first regeneration is a plot hole in itself. if it's possible to heal himself without changing appearance why does he ever change appearance? yes i know it's because they need to change the actor but from a story point it doesn't make sense
@@theimortal1974 The way it's explained (I think) is that to keep the same body a timelord needs something with matching biology for the rest of the energy to flow into. It doesn't make sense though. Surely regeneration heals BY completely resetting the timelords biology, otherwise why change at all.
Don't forget 12:Had no infinite regeneration, and gave his life to save a random town of people, because it was right, because it was decent. And above all, Kind.
@@theimortal1974 in the show he says the regeneration healed him then he passed the excess energy into his other hand which is technically a part of him and is damaged so it does make sence to a certain degree. Clearly when the doctor regenerates it heals him first then the excess changes him. I mean we've already seen this to be the case with 10 after the radiation and 11 when he got younger again before he changed. 10 was just lucky enough to have his hand there so he didn't have to go through with the 2nd part
Dude yes yes, that's so true. And I heard Netflix is going to make a series off my favorite book - Chronicles of Narnia (This book literally changed my childhood) - I am afraid. Not only that, but Amazon is working in a Lord Of The Rings series too.
@@Ghost-ql3hl It is thoroughly depressing. But at the same time - as a writer, I have a glimmer of hope. I'll write some stuff and make some comics, and I will - gasp - not make them poorly-written, ideological crap. If the big companies insist on ruining all of the other franchises, I might have a chance to be successful. That's literally all I can think of as a positive in this situation.
The timeless child allowing the Doctor to regenerate because they saw all the people the Doctor helped would be so amazing. Why is every fan’s idea better than Chibnall’s?
Because Chibnall's writing is so bad many erotic fanfictions written by edgy cosplayers showcase better writing and plots than his abominable creations.
Everyone's trashing on the finale but in just annoyed that captain Jack was only in the series for 10 BLOODY MINUTES. WHat was the point in him being there?
Space Penguins It was just fan service. They announced that Jack wasn’t returning in this series after his appearance half way through. But I agree it was stupid, why was Jack warning the Doctor about “The Lone Cyberman” when it all amounted to fuck all?
Young Nation A lot of people were still holding out for a return And even if he didn’t come back the cameo was just there to make everyone “like” this series more because it’s the one that brought Jack back (And yeah how did he know about that lone Cybermen)
Just commented the same thing - I think this would make so much more sense. Also, looking at the other replies here, it would explain how the Master keeps dying completely and finally with no possibiliy of ever coming back ever ... and then coming back.
@@seasnek7024 Honestly I was waiting for an explanation all season long and I mean it just never happened. I was rather disappointed at that especially since Missy's character development was something I really loved.
Two things imo would've made this ok: 1) The Master is the Timeless Child; his reaction of genocide/hatred would've been justified. 2) The Timeless child isn't her, it's just someone and as you said, pose the Question "Is it right for me to use this stolen power?". This also could link to number 1.
That's actually along the lines of what I was thinking. It'd be more interesting from a story perspective to make The Master the timeless child and The Doctor the scientist that extracted regeneration and gave it to the time lords. It'd also shed light on why the two characters are simultaneously close AND at odds with each other at the same time.
I liked how the doctor was just a random guy who ran away and wasn't anyone really special. He would eventually become special because of what he would do and how long he has been around.
The good thing is nobody is going to really care about this in 10 years. It'll be one of those things that was done in Doctor Who that was never revisited. Honestly no showrunner is gonna make a whole season surrounding this again, so it'll be one of those forgotten bits of canon like the doctor being half human in the past.
I can imagine this episode being brought up as a fun fact on top 10 lists 20 years from now alongside other wierd and dumb stuff in who cannon, like the Doctor becoming an evil dictator in the future of the 7th doctors foreskin being on display In a museum. (No seriously that last one is true)
well even tho we never seen it the 9th doctor said "or no head at all" implying he doesnt have to be strictly human, so why not let him/her just be the universe
@@michaelmartin9022 Except in this case, they are all different incarnations and have different faces. I wonder how many versions of the same TARDIS can be operational in the universe at the same time, before it starts causing problems to the structural ingetrity of space/time?
That's it. Just say it! All of these "reviewers" using PC lingo to detract from the real issue of deliberate, repeated pedicide (the killing of children- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_types_of_killing)!
Dude, the Doctor being the Timeless Child is a plot that had been around for 45 years. It's not something the showrunners did just now for the sake of shock factor.
@@thesaucegod3136 So what? The plots, the hints, the storylines of the Tom Baker tenure that all linked to the Timeless Child does not exist. Much as well say that the entire run of the 4th Doctor should be erased since it's the root of the Timeless Child.
When the cursed child came out i thoughy i still had the og books and held on. Now DW has also pulled the bullshit and ruined itself beyond comprehension, the clips of Eccelston , David,Matt,Capaldi made me cry about how the character they all played now was utterly butchered. The pain,anger,optimism,will they showed all amounts to nothing now. My head canon is that the final capaldi season was before river and the doctor pseudo perma retired with river, its the pwrfect sendoff and ending
This timeline kinda is iffy in my opinion. Don't forget that the 11th Doctor accidentally wiped away virtually the entire universe and had to restart it with a tiny bit of the original materials and himself absent from the rebooted universe. That tiny change to the universe from it's very origin could cause minor differences to slowly build up over the eons... Then Clara inserted herself into the Doctor's incredibly universe-altering timeline that even extends across multiple universes and the areas in between... Well... This literally isn't the same universe, ever since Doctor #11. I just hope that Doctor Who eventually has another universe "reboot" or a plot where the Doctor goes to somewhere in the weaving mass of timelines and parallel universes where the writing is a bit deeper and more thought out. Hopefully things change before the Doctor ends up making a robotic cat named F.E.__ (pronounced "feline")
@@__jonbud______________________ There's no proof that it's actually different, the universe occupies the same space with all the same things in the same places, the only exception is Amy's parents. Nothing you said is substantiated in the show. Basically just head canon.
The Timeless Child should've been The Master, it wouldn't have necessarily made more sense, but it fits his character a whole lot more and would feed his ego to its absolute breaking point.
I think it would have been a much more interesting take. First of all his madness could be explained by the torture and experimentation inflicted upon him by early Gallifreyans; even if his memory has been wiped he may still carry deep subconscious scarring. In addition it would give him a better motivation to destroy Gallifrey the way he did hen he learned the truth.
Ithought it could've been Rassilon, as then the master was cast out by people who tortured a child to become almost immortal before brain washing them to use as a war hero and to become fully immortal, which gives reason to both their actions. It also makes the Doctor more depth as they have more reasons to dislike the time lords but they also actively went after the the Master to punish them for being angry at the time lords for good reasons, muddying the waters of the conflict
What if the Timeless Child was Susan? This would fit in with what we know: the Doctor running away in a stolen Tardis taking a girl with her who may not actually be his real granddaughter. Finding out about the Child in an attempt to do the right thing and free the creature to give it a proper childhood with family and learning, could be something very Doctor-like and fit eith the established timeline.
Seriously, this as well as every other idea or theory presented in the video is a better story than what we got. I really tried to get on board with the timeless child plot and tried to accept it but I just can't.
Would also give the doctor that he finally has someone to understand why being in a way, immortal can be a very difficult curse to accept especially with tens reasoning with Lazarus, “in the end you just get tired… tired of the struggle to watch everything you know and love… turn to dust…”
@Jacob Wood Not true. Andrew Garfield's Spider-man was chosen by fate through birthright and Tom Holland's Spider-man was basically adopted by Iron man. Both are antithetical to Spider-man's characterization and background.
@@bluehero-96 I gotta disagree with your characterisation of Holland's Spiderman. Whilst it's true he may have been elevated to the big leagues by Tony, he was already out there as our friendly neighbourhood Spiderman. It was only through his exploits on youTube that Tony found him.
Twist in the next season: The Master is actually the timeless child. His turn to evil is the result of his torture. He has lied to The Doctor as part of a diabolical plan.
I hope so, and then perhaps they could have the Ruth doctor be the doctor from another universe, perhaps not Roses universe, but another one nonetheless, which would explain why she wouldn't remember Jodies doctor.
@@jackguy564 Actually, I'm thinking if The Doctor is not the timeless child, then this is his/her last regeneration. However, as with how other Time Lords got their regeneration, through blood transfusion or DNA transference or whatever they did from the timeless child, perhaps The Doctor will somehow get another one. The downside, all memory is wiped when a new set of regenerations begin, a fresh start. It would explain how Jodie and Ruth don't recognise each other. If The Master is actually the timeless child, that would explain how he would survive Missy being shot dead point blank. I was told years ago that such a direct act would kill The Doctor for good. Otherwise he wouldn't really be in any danger when there are threats on his life since he could simply regenerate.
Yeah that breaks that whole bit of lore. Maybe they’ll say the timeless child was exposed to the temporal schism and gained powers that way, in which case there’s no point in having a bloody timeless child.
That is one plot hole. The only explanation I can come with for that is that the Timeless Child got regeneration powers in the same way, but stronger for whatever reason, and being born/conceived inside or next to a time vortex is the real source of regeneration powers.
The show has had the same problems with companions too, making them too special. That’s why I loved Rose so much. She was ordinary, relatable, and incredible.
I couldn't stand Rose. Twice she was responsible for people dying. Her boyfriend Mickey was being disrespected by The Doctor, Rose said nothing in Mickey's defense. She always came across as a bimbo. Rose's mother Jackie was more likeable
@@johnanthonylucock7833 fair point in regards to Mickey, but hard to take your criticism seriously when you're calling women "bimbos." It's very disrespectful
Rose was good on series 1 but I'm not a huge fan of her in the subsequent series. Still, regular and ordinary people going on adventures with the doctor and helping out is on the heart of the show imo.
DANK don’t be silly lol. i think jodie is a good actress, but she can’t really act on it due to chibnall’s poor writing. if the character is compromised, there’s really nothing the actor can do. i just want chibnall gone and the last 2 seasons completely forgotten.
DANK the current doctor is endearing, relatable and was the right transition from the twelfth. The transition from eleven to twelve was to show that the doctor can’t ever be a normal person. He can’t have romantic relationships and he can’t fall in love and I feel like we al needed that reminder. The twelfth doctor taught that although he is the last of his kind, he isnt alone. He started as a closed off and bitter person because he wasn’t being truthful to himself, he as the eleventh was playing pretend acting as if he could be someone who flirts and goes on “dates”. The 12 doctor was his realization that he was different and that part of life isn’t an option. But he learned kindness and mercy and learned the importance of friendship. The 13th is a great doctor who adds onto the story line and was the right choice for the transition from the 11th who was playing pretend, to the 12th who was bitter in realization, to her the 13th who is the doctor understanding in some sense who she is.
DANK this isn’t to say that the episode plots aren’t SHIT because the show running is fucking terrible but the doctor herself is actually in my opinion the right choice, she is well rounded character and her personality brings the doctor further into her understanding of who she is. Not because she’s a girl but because her character is just right.
I have one objection. You say the timeless child ruins the doctor because the doctor was "just another time Lord" but that's incorrect. The most fascinating thing, the thing that gets ruined, is that the Doctor was a shitty time Lord. He was below average. He barely passed his classes, and barely got into the academy. Every other time Lord loathed to see him. And yet, I can't help but feel that this revelation is only an extension of Moffitt's run in which every Arc focused on why the doctor was "so important." And pretty much painted the picture that all of space and time revolved around him.
I think the timeless child should have been a villain like the master. Ending in a story where to stop them the doctor gives up on regeneration to show the timeless child that the timelords can change and are willing to change. She ofc would get them back because the show has to go on but that way the doctor would still be someone who is special through theire actions.
Or just someone we don't know about. Someone else mentioned how they could've become a good villain for the doctor to have to fight because they hate the timelords for what they did to them.
oh no you know nothing you think i would actually tell you the honest truth for once in my lives no doctor that was just a myth that you missed when sick as a child. that's the jist of what i WANT to happen
@@eddherring4972 I'd rather not have a timeless child at all (or as someone above said, just have it be a new villain character), but better the Master than the Doctor imo.
Capaldi actually regenerated as a ginger and became so excited he passed out and this is all a fever dream. Or, maybe it was a ploy by the dream lord? Maybe the dream lord is the master and has been manipulating the doctor all along? idk man, I hope Chibbs changes it.
I mean, they still undermined all the Master's character development since the End of Time in favor of the static, unchanging machievellian villain he is now.
The concept of the first Doctor being the one who experimented on her is a pretty good one, but I think it'd be so much better if The Master was the Timeless Child. That way we would have a villain who is infinity stronger than the hero, and that would make things so much more interesting. Imagine the Doctor now knowing that her ultimate nemesis is immortal, the sense of dread she felt would have hit her and the audience so much harder. It would also explain why The Master was so angry at Gallifrey that he burned the whole planet to the ground. Feeling betrayed enough as he already was, this new found information would have tipped him over the egde (considering he spent a lifetime as a decaying husk).
My theory is that was the intent, but that the bbc got involved. If the doctor had gone against the master after the story we heard it would make her seem like the bad guy, which I believe similarly happened with the end of time and time lord victorious concept. I think the BBC is a lot more at fault with the flaws in who then many realize
MY THEORY: RASSILON is the timeless child. he was already credited in classic who for having more regenerations and thought to be immortal. he is also partially credited for giving timelords regeneration. after the doctor kicked him off gallifrey he wanted revenge so like how he gave the master drums, he gave the doctor some of his memories when he looked into the vortex. multiple times in classic who the doctor would absentmindedly mention regenerations he never had and would sometimes say he stole the TARDIS and others say he built her. ruth was jenny-the doctors daughter which explained why thier DNA was the same. rassilon kidnapped her and messed with her head as well as giving her a matching TARDIS. he gave her memories of the doctor up to 12 which was the last doctor rassilon saw so she didnt regognise 13. he enterd the matrix (something that could only be done with rassilon's key) and hacked it which classic who proves is possible. he did all this for revenge on the doctor. during the war he became paranoid, petty and vindictive. 12 took away everything he worked for and rassilon is now an insane genius. Just my theory.
@@crimsonmitsuko That made him freak out as well and realize he was giving in. Self righteous justification that he knew all and best with no one to stop him, the timelord victorious. Always thought that moment deserved more mention.
Thing is, even the Impossible Girl, whatever you think about it, was in the end about what Clara did. Becoming the Impossible Girl was her choice, she made the decision to jump into the Doctor's timestream. Whatever else you think about that story, it gave Clara her agency and what made her special wasn't anything she was born with, but her own actions born out of bravery and compassion. The Doctor becoming the timeless child wasn't a result of courage or hope or compassion, it was just a fact of her birth. TL:DR: At least the Impossible Girl storyline, whatever else you think about it, was based on Clara's own decision and a celebration of her agency and own qualities. The Timeless Child was just how the Doctor was born, without any choice or anything she independently did. So I'd argue it's worse.
I liked TIG, but it was because I liked Clara and she had a reason to be TIG. TTC had no reason behind it, unless it turns out that The Doctor is the one who did the experiments and wanted to forget it all, essentially resetting herself and becoming the boy we saw at the farm.
You should be grateful for the impossible girl. She disproves any of this actually happened to The Doctor. Don’t you think she would’ve told him that he was born a black girl if she had seen that which she would have by jumping into his time stream?
@@MamaMOB - You'd have an excellent point, if the showrunners hadn't already demonstrated that they don't care even a little bit about violating all previously established canon.
An interesting wrinkle: Andrew Cartmel actually publicly criticized the Timeless Child reveal recently. He said that The Cartmel Master Plan was something that they were mostly going to hint at and leave breadcrumbs for, not something that they were ever going to fully explain, hence why it was supposed to return mystery to the show. I find it interesting that even the person that Chibnall is ripping off thinks that this was executed horribly.
And he was the script editor of the some of best classic DW episodes ever (from what I've heard). That's how you know you reeeeaallly screwed up. I'm probably not gonna watch the CC episodes lol.
@@mackielunkey2205 Oh yeah, 2/3 of Cartmel's seasons were really good. I highly recommend most of McCoy's final two seasons. It was very bold and experimental and had some really trippy stuff. It can be hard to follow at times, but it's really rewarding if you can get past that.
Elliott Owain and something like that would make him lose his mind with ego, which COULD with a capital COULD explain why this new master apparently forgets being missy
It also justifies why he destroyed Gallifrey much better. "Wah, my rival is special and I'm not" is a justification for a tantrum. "Regeneration was my birthright and the Time Lords stole it with torture that drove me so mad that even memory-wiping wouldn't cure it" is justification for a genocide.
Except that undermines the point of the Master then. The Master isn’t supposed to be justified in thinking he’s special, he’s supposed to be wrong, the Doctor’s point for fifty years is that you choose to be special. Making THE MASTER God of all Time Lords would justify his egomania.
@@elliottwatt5297 *cue David Tennant speech about* "Oh, you're special. Oh you were hurt. Welcome to the universe. It doesn't mean you can go around spreading the hurt to everyone you think is less special than you." Him being special doesn't make him right, it makes him the perfect foil to The Doctor's self made man. Making The Master "a god" doesn't justify his megalomania, it makes The Doctor's standing up to him all the more noble and heroic.
Aaron Brown no it literally does justify his megalomania. If he’s the reason the most powerful race in the universe exists then he’s always been right about himself. It justifies his feelings of superiority over the other Time Lords, just in the way the Doctor being the Child justifies their moral superiority over the time lords. It’s cheap and easy. You can argue that it makes the Doctor look better by comparison but it still means the Doctor is a result of torturing the Master, that everything they’ve ever done is a result of his mistreatment, that sounds like a pretty justifiable reason for the Master to take credit for the Doctor’s good, while blaming them for their own wrongs. I’m not saying the Master is right, I’m just saying that maybe the clever thing to do is to make everyone accountable for their actions, and not have destiny decide who’s good and who’s bad.
Eric Hurd Nah, I don’t mind the idea of the Timeless Child. I don’t even mind the Timeless Child being tied to someone like the Master. I do take offence to the Timeless Child being the Doctor.
Yeah, my only concern is that people think this means doctor who is done for good. Maybe I’m naive, but I’m sure that the next show runner will fix things or completely ignore this lore if Chris doesn’t clean up the mess
@@gooper3644 I agree with you on this, Chibnall’s era sucks big-time but that doesn’t mean Doctor Who is doomed, just that it’s kinda meh right now when it doesn’t need to be
@@claudius3359I think Star Wars is different as something like this has never happened before for Star Wars, the prequels were only really hated years after the fact and aren't actually bad at all, they're arguably as good as the OT and most of the hate is derived from comparisons to the OT despite the biggest flaw being a flaw the OT also has in the dialogue but I digress. Who has had issues like this before and has recovered by retconning or ignoring it, so I don't think it's an issue overall. Star Wars is dead unless Disney or whoever takes the reigns next retconns or ignores the sequels altogether
Did the Master ever actually explain how he knew the child was the Doctor? Could he be lying? He's hardly a reliable narrator, and the Matrix was corrupted. I think there's enough ambiguity there that it could be retconed fairly easily!
@@fivish I hope they don't explicitly contradict it... Just throw in a line of dialogue to suggest he MAY have been lying about some (or all) of it and then move on!
My guess is that the timeless child (SEASON9: the ‘hybrid,’ a half time lord half dalek demigod) is Clara, she had came back again and again and comes back as a new person... but now she’s out of the picture..
lenro i’m glad you mentioned Clara. Because she makes this entire season finale impossible. Remember she jumped into The Doctors time stream. She was literally in every moment of his existence. She wasn’t in any of these moments. Because they’re not the doctors experiences. If that person existed it wasn’t The Doctor.
I maintain that when Russell T. Davies brought back Doctor Who he wrote that first season in a way that if all the changes that he was bringing to the show ( removing the Timelords, destroying Galifrey, Doctor last of his kind) did not resonate with the old fandom he could have just announced that New Who was separate from Classic Who. The new series could have remained on TV filling in its past as it continued while Classic would go on mostly via Big Finish in a distinct alternative universe. Luckily RTD did such a good job most of fandom totally accepted Christopher Eccleston as a Doctor in the line of Doctors that began with William Hartnell. RTD cemented continually of the new Doctors during David Tennant's run with little references here and there culminating with the return of Sarah Jane . Just my observation on how a real pro author like RTD handled canon change compared to the ham fisted way Chibnall failed with.
Even when following on from a long established setting, a GOOD writer will add to it moving forward, while leaving its past entirely intact and unaltered. An arrogant hack will take a machete to its past, retcon away much of the things that made the setting what it was, and thus alienate much of the audience that used to like it, and then blame the audience for not having the imagination to love their new version instead. Doctor who just destroyed its own past, much like the Star Wars and Star Trek franchises did with theirs. These idiots will keep doing the same thing over and over, and expect a different and better result each time.
I feel like missy (the master) should have been the timeless child that’s why when he looked into the eye he went insane because that where he/she came from and when she finds out that’s when she starts her path of healing with Peter cappaldi
Personally: the "Timeless Child" back-story makes far more sense to be that of the Master, at it would give some sort of reason *why* he hates the Timelords and seems hell-bent on killing/destroying them. Making it the Doctor just seems to over-egging her character pie, there's no reason to make her *the most important character in the entire history of Gallifrey* and basically discard the "just a madman in box" character which has been pretty-much adhered to for almost all of Doctor Who. The Timelord Council not knowing that the Doctor had infinite regerations makes sense, because the knowledge was erased from the Matrix and all other records destroyed by The Division (who I *think* are meant to be Chibnal's version of the Celestial Intervention Agency ).
While I like the idea of it being the Master more than I like it being the Doctor, I prefer the Master hating the Time Lords because of them torturing him as a beacon to return. The never ending sound of drums
Imagine if it was the master and the doctor was Tecteun explaining why the doctor and the master always hung out and the master's hate for the timelords. It would also explain why the master had a subliminal hatred for the 10th doctor despite being childhood friends as the hatred and trama felt was still there despite the pleasant memories in his mind
OK... retcon time lol: The Doctor isn't the Timeless Child, the Master just thinks he/she is because that's what the Matrix implied when he hacked into it. Everything else is true, as in the Child was helpless and unique, Tecteun (later Rassilon, also an immortal Time Lord founder) stole the power via torture in the name of "science" and created the Time Lords. All Time Lords share a memory of the Timeless Child due to this. "Ruth" is the Timeless Child, posing as the Doctor, probably doing so convincingly because her and all Time Lords share memories, and is currently on a mission of her own, presumably trying to undo the Masters mess via his misunderstanding.
Well at least for the Holiday Special the head of it George Lucas is ashamed of it and immediately knew that he needed to make people forget it as soon as possible, he completed failed obviously, but at least he knew it sucked. So far that's not the case for The Timeless Child.
Instead of the Master the Timeless Child should have been an independent character and the antagonist of the story. A forgotten primordial prisoner that escape and wanted revenge on all Time Lords. It could also have potential to have several ancient prisoners and new villains in the series that escaped.
That would be amazing! Kind of like Omega, angry at Time Lord society and working over millennia for revenge. Plus, the escaped prisoner thing for other villains in really cool, helping create an overarching plot for a whole season!
I have a better timeless child story: everything else is the same, timeless child has regeneration and people on gallifrey used that regeneration power for themselves, however there was one person who felt true sorrow for the child, the doctor, one night he (as the first doctor) frees the timeless child who’s now regenerated into the doctors granddaughter, afterwards they borrow one of the TARDIS’ and travel to earth and over time they leave their granddaughter on earth to hopefully live out a mostly normal life. Fixed, it references the doctors granddaughter from the beginning, we can still feel fear for the doctor because they now can die and everything else stays the same... you can come up with other (better) ways the story could have gone go ahead, even saying the master is the timeless child is a better ending than the actual ending
Timeless Child is a Good Concept, the only Botching point IS that it is the Doctor. I would've loved it if the Timeless child Ran away, they didnt know WHERE they were, that sets up another season (Tracking the Timeless Child) and would add CONFLICT to Jodie Regenerating. "SHOULD I use this stolen Regeneration ability..." only to lead to the Timeless child WANTING the Doctor to Regenerate because the Doctor wasnt the one to steal the Ability, but the Doctor was the one that DESERVES the ability
@@lucasparadox6823 That could actually be amazing! Well, I say COULD, depends who the showrunner is. If it's still Chibnall, I'll pass (seriously, can we just have Moffat or RTD back?)
Heck that works perfectly, it could also explain the Hand of Omega being used as the Doctor could've used it to free the Child all those aeons ago and hid it away from the Time Lords to prevent them uing it.
Reminds me of what Tennants doctor said in his last episodes "Even if I change it feels like dying. Everything I am changes and some new man goes sauntering away" Every incarnation of the doctor is unique and supposed to feel different adding onto the point of "I can be like them" and the whole chosen one thing kind of ruins the feel of what makes a new incarnation of the doctor unique. Their character! Ecclestons Character: Filled with rage with the time war and what he did yet still tries to do the right thing and learns to love and let go of his rage Tennants Character: Filled with regret, truly a lonely character as we see with the amount of companions he has that he ends up losing all the same, never to see him again. Rose, getting stuck in another universe, Martha realising she just wants to live her life and become a medical practitioner says goodbye to him and Donna ends up forgetting he ever existed causing him to die alone Smiths Character: Filled with grief, yet puts on the facade of the happy-go-lucky doctor who saves the world summarised in the first lines he speaks in his first episode, "I'm the Doctor, basically, run" Capaldi's Character: The one who struggles with his own morality, constantly asking the question "Am I good man?" even to the point where he doesn't know if he was a good man for saving Ary-I mean Ashildr Whittakers character: supposed to be the doctor who brings hope to the universe buuuuuuuuuuut we know how that turned out.
That's a pretty neat comparison. I kind of see Whittaker's character as someone who thinks they know everything and that her way of thinking, even though she claims she changes opinions, is the right one. However, she never stops to think that her way is right. She's so used to hopping around with a crew that follows her word without question that she might as well be talking to no one and can no longer stay in one place long enough to be challenged that it's actually affecting her execution.
Agree with the top 4 but Whittakers character is pencilled in for SJW purposes,, there's no character development there, hence when I watch scenes from her first episode it feels the same in her latest episode which is wooden, emotionless and just plain obnoxious. Whereas you can see the 9th, 10th and 11th Drs grow, 10 becomes more lonely and resentful, starts to become insane with it before snapping out of it to save an old mans life,, 9 accepts himself again and learns to like himself, 11 ends up feeling vindicated and drops the act.. 12 is more like Whittaker sadly, there's no real character development there at all, he goes round and round and round. and Obnoxious would be fine if you have the charisma to pull it off and whittaker has none. Chibnall writing for her just about sums the whole charade up.
Finally someone mentions how the timeless child plotline completely defeats the entire purpose of River Song giving up her regenerations! When I finished the season that was the first thing that popped into my head, about a month or two later I'm still irritated by this massive oversight. The sacrifice and death of one of the greatest characters in the show, completely meaningless.
Doesn't it also defy her birth too? She was a timelord with regenerations because she was conceived and exposed to the time vortex. Also, during that whole story line, it was implied that's how the entire species of timelords came into being was through the constant exposure to the time vortex. Having all the timelords be created by stealing parts of the timeless child literally ignores that River Song even excited.
I’ve been running under the assumption that since the Time Lords figured out how to give regeneration to others and place limits on it, they limited the Doctor’s after the mind wipe. After all there wouldn’t be much point to a mind wipe and hiding the truth if it’s just going to be revealed when the Doctor regenerates for the thirteenth time, so perhaps in the Time of the Doctor all they did is remove the limit.
@@Shikatema4ever River was unique. Not only was she conceived in the Time Vortex, she was conceived in a TARDIS. That is Time Lord tech that the Doctor has used to stabilize his regenerations in the past. So there is evidence in Cannon that technology has something to do with regeneration.
Chibnall really is so talented, because his decisions are just one alteration from actually being compelling, but in every episode it is like he takes the one element that would challenge the doctor, and removes it, to create the most plain and boring plots possible. It is the kind of incompetence that feels deliberate.
The fact that the Doctor is the single most important person in all of Gallifrey history, I don’t really like this because she’s like *d e s t i n e d* to be the greatest rather than earn it throughout the show
I didn't like it when moffat made the doctor the focus of the universe so many times but this as a whole other level. I preferred it when the doctor was just a traveller who helps wherever they go
@@liammatthews2183 but when moffat did it it at least made sense. I didnt like it eithwr but it worked. The doctor had defeated his enemies so much they felt compelled to try to defeat him together in the pandorica opens. It made sense! this doesnt
@@liammatthews2183 yea! It _IS_ A FANFIC! Thats a perfect way to describe it. It brings to mind when chibnass was on the show talking about doctor who in the 80s and he said Doctor Who was going downhill and he would do so much better at it. All i can think when he said that was "you right fanfiction dont you?" well i got my answer
@@liammatthews2183 also if the doctor isnt a timelord and an extradimensional being why does he/she have time lord biology. Has two hearts and everything. So did the timelords take this away from him/her also?
My main issue with the Timeless Child is that it is an extension of a problem many have had with modern era Who in the past of the Doctor being too big. I tolerate it in most cases and justify it as him becoming that way due to the Time War and there are even times where I think it is good (eg: everyone at the Pandorica being established as having fought him at some point or when 10 basically tells the vashta nerada to look him up in the galaxy's biggest library in Forest of the Dead). However, even then it got away from the way the character was portrayed in Classic Who and therefore they couldn't rely purely on reputation and weren't usually the most important person in the universe (apart from cases such as being declared Lord President of Galifray at the end of the 5 Doctors and even then he ran off) which was even hinted at as being a way the show was going with 11 in series 7 where he deleted information of himself from most galactic data bases but now they're apparently the entire reason Galifray exists as it does? One of my favourite lines from Capaldi's run as the Doctor is from Death in Heaven: "I am an idiot... with a box and a screwdriver. Passing through, helping out, learning." which I think sums up what the Doctor is most of the time and how they should be and in the same scene that Doctor says that "I am not a good man".
Yeah, it's at least more acceptable when he becomes important through his actions as an adult but when you make him important ever since he was a child, that's just lame.
Exactly. I liked that the Doctor was just a random Time Lord that just so happened to make enough noise to be the most important being in the universe. The whole Timeless Child gambit really raises a bunch more questions than it answered, and is far too convienient for my taste.
It's actually pretty indicative with modern story telling. It's all about destiny and being special, not becoming who you truly are or bettering yourself.
@@Eyecyou64 Wow, nailed it. People are being taught that they're "perfect the way they are!". You don't need to change, learn, or better yourself in any way, you've earned everything you ever want just by existing. And if anyone denies you then they're wrong and mean. This perfectly plays into that.
Moffat was majorly guilty of aggrandising the Doctor. I don't think this revelation actually does that though, because (a) it doesn't give the Doctor any more power or authority and (b) it's actually kind of separate to the Doctor. The Doctor isn't responsible for the Time Lords - a biological sample taken from her is. She's essentially Henrietta Lacks, and I think that's okay. This hasn't changed who she is as a person.
I always thought an interesting idea would be if The Doctor’s regenerations got more volatile with time. Right now, they can fuck up the Tardis. What if, in a couple more, they could destroy a moon? Perhaps The Doctor themselves isn’t worried about their death, but is instead worried for how much damage their death may cause.
Best version would be if Susan was the timeless child, and the Doctor had stolen the TARDIS, and HER! Stole her from the cruelty of the timelords. Susan does not remember it. But she will. Centuries later. And Jodie's Doctor meets her then.
Idk if that would make sense, the Doctor steals Susan from cruelty of the Time Lords she endured for who knows how long, and then just casually leaves her on a destroyed Earth with some random dude
@@eeli-iivaritampio5776 Maybe that was the point. It was a random point in time on a backwater world. Like hiding the holy grail in a skip in Croydon. The Doctor knew the Time Lords would catch up eventually so he had to drop the hot potato.
Okay, I have an idea of how this could be fixed. So, we never learn how the Master found out it was the Doctor SPECIFICALLY who was the Timeless Child. He only says so and the Doctor just takes his word for it. So, how about the Doctor meets an older Timelord somewhere down the line and she tells them about this revelation - only for them to reveal that the Timeless Child is dead. They died long along, as an act of rebellion against the Timelord, by throwing themselves into the genetic splicing machine that the Timelords created to give themselves the ability to regenerate (call them the Looms or whatever). The Doctor, therefore, cannot be the Timeless Child, but why then does the Master find these memories of Brendon in the Matrix? Who is Ruth? Who are the Morbius Doctors? Well, I propose that they reveal that Brendon is actually the Master after the Division recruits him under the presumption that he is the Timeless Child reborn in a new body. They use him and abuse him to point of using up most of his regenerations before they realise that he wasn't what they were looking for. The Master then escapes after his latest mind wipe and goes on to be the James Dreyfus Master as seen in Big Finish. The Doctor is just an ordinary Timelord who knew the Master before he was recruited, his best friend. So whilst the Master is out in the universe burning through his regenerations in dangerous missions for the Division, the Doctor lives comfortably on Gallifrey, eventually going off into the universe. What about Ruth? Where does she fit in? Well, I would establish that Ruth is a FUTURE incarnation of the Doctor, someone who doesn't remember 13 for some reason. Why? Well, that could be the dominant question going forward in the series. A premonition of something terrible that's about to happen which causes the Ruth Doctor to not only go into hiding but either be forced to forget or choose to forget her time as 13. The reason she went into hiding? The Timelords hunting her down and trying to recruit her back into the Division to help build New Gallifrey. But that would be something for the future. What about the Morbius Doctors then? How do they fit in? Well, I don't know. I want to keep it vague. But personally, if it has to be addressed, I'd go with the Season 6B fan theory - which states that there was another incarnation of the Doctor in between 2 and 3 that did a bunch of dirty work for the Timelords - except instead of one incarnation, it's several, all serving the Division as penance for his interference of the lower worlds. The extra lives used? Restored by the Timelords after the Doctor's sentence is complete, reinstated along with a memory wipe, just like Brendon. It would be fun I think to then have the Morbius Doctor come back in some fashion, maybe as antagonists of the Doctor, or maybe the Doctor has to deal with the fallout of their missions for the Timelords.
This is a pretty good idea but it does require a lot of surgery on the multiple doctor thing. I love the idea of The timelords thinking a Brendan Master is the timeless child. Not too sure about fitting the brain of morbius doctors inbetween Patrick and Jon but some good can come out of it.
Not bad, we already ignored completely that nonsense of the Doctor being half-human and the Morbius faces; it's as FFV puts it: is not like continuity is not a wibbly wobbly ball of stuff already
Eddie Curtis Don’t like it. It’s too convoluted because Chib has just created something that really doesn’t work. I think you put more thought into that than he did.
The Timeless Child should have definitely been the Master, as it would make him even angrier and give him an even more psychotic persona. And it could play into what we learn in The End of Time, where the Time Lords place a message into his head.
The concept of staring into the time vortex as a kid could be twisted in the way of it was another way of torture to draw out his regeneration powers. Then other time lords like the doctor either had to look into it to get the regeneration powers or were simply lied to to clarify how they got the powers, when in theory it’s a lie cus the powers were stolen.
The idea of the Master being compassionate towards the Timeless Child could have multiple avenues that tie back into & further the arc Missy went on in series 10. There are SO many possibilities, it feels like Chibnall chose the worst road to travel
Andy Benji except that the season finale is 1/10 because the doctor cowardly running away and letting someone else suicide-murder the Master is just shit writing.
Calling it right now: The Master lied. He said The Doctor was the Timeless Child just to goad her into believing she is some kind of chosen one, some kind of god destined to save the universe. The Doctor is susceptible to this because of their flaw: hubris. Actually The Master is the Timeless Child. That's why he burned Gallifrey. "The Master" of what? of Time, naturally. But the Master has always existed to show the audience the potential sinister side of the Doctor. The Master has taken advantage of the Doctor's savior complex before: in that scene where the Master refuses to regenerate while the Doctor is watching. What he's doing there is taunting the Doctor, by saying "haha, I refuse to let you to save me". It would make the Master a far more believable and compelling character, if their evil was the result of something done to them. As it is right now, The Master was seemingly born as a sociopath. But sociopaths need not be born, they can be created. Abuse by a parental figure can leave a child unable to form healthy relationships, perpetually in pain and powerless to resolve their problems on their own. All too often, abused children become abusers. Like, The Master. This would also have made the Missy arc more sensible. If the Master was a born psychopath, then there would be no real possibility of their redemption. If they cannot empathize with people then they will never do things "because they are right". The best that could happen is that they learn about how interdependent the world is, and how hurting others hurts themself. But if the Master is a tortured and abused child, if they are capable of empathy: but that capability has gone unused because they were taught early on that empathy is a weakness. Now that is a character who could be truly redeemed. Having at least the possibility of redemption for the Master raises the stakes, and makes the character far more compelling. If there is truly a possibility of redeeming the Master, then everything is potentially important.
Yes! right now the master's evil comes from doing the exact same thing the other kids on the academy of gallifrey did, loooking into the time vortex. It makes no sense as to why the master would go insane from it but not the doctor, they're quite similar, exept for the i like murdering/i hate murdering part
@DANK Oh really? then why are you here on this video? If you truly believed the show was dead, you wouldn't be watching videos about it. You don't think the show is dead, you WANT the show to die because you're angry at it. Which you have every right to be.
I thought it was also established that the Master went crazy in part due to the Timelords giving him a shit ton of regenerations and forcing him to fight in the time war, like the drums that he heard were the drums of war echoing in his mind. It's been awhile since I've watched 10s seasons so I could be wrong, and I'm not disagreeing with, just trying to remember!
Watch the episodes again. It's still there. I think people are going wrong by imagining this to be more than a twist that'll be written out sometime into the future.
@@paulpeartsmith I stopped paying attention when Smith became The Doctor. If someone likes the series from 11 onwards, go for it. Like what you want to like, it's just not for me anymore. There was incredibly strong writing and character development done during the run of the 9th and 10th Doctor's, but all the good writers moved on to other projects once Tennan decided to leave. I think there was also some internal conflicts with the BBC at the time anyway with the changes they wanted to see, but I don't know enough to comment on that aspect.
Also find it hilarious that the Doctor's entire arc from this earthshaking revelation is.... That she's the exact same person that she was before and that nothing has changed. Good on you, Chibnail. You fundamentally changed the very nature of the Doctor without changing a god damned thing about their personality or their character, nullifying the only interesting thing that could've come out of this retcon. We can only hope that this change is retconned in the same manner that you evoked it.
Wouldn’t it make way more sense if The Master was the Timeless Child? Him burning Galifry would be a completely understandable reaction, and why Missy had a decent redemption just to turn into the Evil Master again
@@santiagomenchaca4248no, that's a bad idea. Just make the doctor the kindest time lord or whatever, she doesn't have to be relevant other than their being old friends
i like the idea of the timeless child being a separate person that the time lords tortured, especially because it would have paralleled the way the time lords put the drumbeat in the master's head as a child. could he have destroyed gallifrey in revenge for what they did to him AND this child?
@@MirrenTheDragonKnight I mean stuff like how the word "doctor" means healer because of the Doctor and stuff like that. I don't like that thing where the Doctor is the center of the universe (which is my problem with the Timeless Child), I prefer them to be just a looser who got fed up with their society and fucked off with a half broken ride
@@Ben-vf5gk Remember all those other episodes where the doctor is helpless, pushing forwards with will alone just out of the kindness of their heart? A single episode with symbology means jack shit.
@@warblenoise Or those long series arcs where everyone is out to get the Doctor because he's the most important person in the universe ever, or the times the Doctor has sent people running away their reputation, or they're actually responsible for the word Doctor on some planets. This has been a running trend in most of new who
Additionally, in The Trial of a Time Lord, the whole Trial aspect was based on the fact that the Matrix could not be artificially altered..only for The Master, toward the end, to come in front of everyone, mockingly, showing them that he in fact did exactly that: artificially altered it. So not only is The Master someone more than capable of lying, but is the one character shown to be able to forge untruths within the Matrix itself.
As true as that is, any attempt to move away from the big Timeless Child reveal would require good writing, otherwise it would look like a rushed back-pedal from a mistake. Any poorly conceived response along the lines of "we were just kidding" could sink the show. Then again, any badly executed follow-on will damage the show's chances too. Dare I suggest this path by Chibnall was written to appeal mainly to an American audience, for whom superheroes and easy answers are winners?
@@shebbs1 I think that's possible - that they were thinking of the huge numbers they could get if they just compromised a bit (okay, a lot) on quality. I just hope they pay attention to the response from their *actual* audience in putting together the followup episode (the new year special, IIRC), rather than dreaming of a huge but dumbed-down potential audience. It's still going to be a glaring backpedal even if it's done well, but maybe, just maybe.... (FWIW, not all Americans are like that. As the 8th Doctor protested when forced to admit that he was indeed a Time Lord, "I'm one of the good ones!")
Owain Shebbeare, Actually (and you can correct me on this one my facts might be wrong), I think The Timeless Child was a theory of Chibnalls when he was a kid
It would've made more sense with the Master as the Timeless Child and the Doctor as Tecteun. At some point, both their memories were wiped, but the underlying emotional dynamic between still somewhat intact, explaining both the Master's rage and his sense of attachment to the Doctor. RTD could still do this perhaps, making the initial reveal another one of the Master's head games. It wouldn't fill every plot hole, but it would go a ways towards fixing the mess that Chibnall created with this story arc.
I love how everyone in the comments section immediately and effortlessly grasps how much better the timeless child would have worked had it been the Master, not the Doctor. It gives the Master a compelling justification for their rage against the Time Lords, their resentment of the Doctor (as the Doctor this way would have benefitted from the Master's stolen abilities, and the Master's continued survival despite burning through so many regenerations. I'm also interested by the possibility of the Doctor actually being Tecteun all along. Having the Doctor be Tecteun would also, I suppose, give an anticlimactic but still logical resolution to the mystery that defined Matt Smith's arc; the question of the Doctor's real name. If the Doctor did all those things as Tecteun, you can see a scenario where Tecteun has a crisis of conscience, renounces that name and takes the name of the Doctor as they go out into the universe to atone for their actions by helping people. Thus, the Doctor's true name would become an urgently guarded secret because they don't want anyone uncovering what they did in their early life. Plus, they can't risk someone using that discovery to track down Tecteun's work and potentially replicate it for their own use. Alternatively, Tecteun semi-botches her first regeneration when she first tries the ability she stole from the timeless child/the Master. She accidentally regenerates into a child herself, both Tecteun and the timeless child get their minds wiped, and they grow up together as the Doctor and the Master that we know and love. They're raised as 'normal' Gallifreyans, believing the fake origin stories spread by the Time Lords, and the Doctor's 'true' name is just whatever they thought it was during this time. There, Chris Chibnall. Two better ideas.
@@brandonmroe265i think the master being it would also be Well bad beccause it would for me Ruin the character but i coukd be in the wrong it would definetly destroy my idea of him
Timeless child reeks of insecurity and desperation. It was created by a person who very clearly knows that he is quite possibly the worst showrunner in the history of this multiple decades long franchise and he wanted to do something to cement his name in as something more. To make himself stand out by doing something "stunning and brave". Problem is, he is still as shit as he was, so we got what we got.
At this point I just want to put the show out of its misery, Chibnall has done damage that will constantly ruin an amazing show. His only legacy is going to be that he was the worst show runner.
It's the same thing with Rian Johnson's treatment of Star Wars or a great many modern Marvel comics writers. Narcissists selfishly putting their stink on timeless properties. Refusing to acknowledge they are stewards and not creators. And it's the fans who have to suffer.
Happy DayZ Your stubborn denial of a clearly terrible story, displays your obsessive fandom of a dying show. Think about the next season...what’s next? How do we ever have stakes if the Doctor literally can’t die? Companion death? Worn the T-shirt mate. Why was the Doctor still a child that had to peer into the vortex like The Master? And if so...what does a timeless child see inside the vortex? Also...isn’t she now a parasite on the concept of life itself. The war doctor, the warrior...shouldn’t we want that dead? How did he steal a Tardis so easily if he is literally the life blood of the race? You don’t think the other Time Lords would have her rapunzel’d for life? Turned into a blood machine? Remember when he killed the rachnos queen? Do you like the idea of god dealing death by hand? When not one enemy could ever imagine to surpass him? The whole thing is a Damn veiled metaphor for how the Female Doctor is soooo special. What about Missy? So she wanted to help last time, and for lesser reasons than the disgusting stuff done to the Timeless child? If he can’t die...can’t get ill...why does he keep acting like it’s all over? Why have the crack in space save 11 when he didn’t need saving...could blame it on lack of knowledge...except the time lords are the only people that would have known? Why the rule of 13?? What was that fake news in galifrey!! You are outta your mind if you can enjoy it without feeling Chibnalls filthy fingers all over the legacy? Dumb dumb dumb. Mary Sue taken to the level of Christ...so crucify him/her/my lord and saviour...Doctor Jesus. Please think about it. Sucks to think you would be so shallow.
P.S the time war is basically genocide. Doctor Adolf. Chibnall has destroyed the character. If the Master were the timeless child the threat would be insurmountable....now the stakes are unmountable entirely. Yuck. Boooooo
'The Timeless Child is the single worst idea in Doctor Who history' already the truth has been spoken and it was only the first sentence. 'You may find this hyperbolic...' Au Contraire, my friend!
No, the single worst idea in Dr Who history is fans thinking they own the show and that their opinion is worth shit. But if you don't like it there is the obvious get out that the matrix has lied before and that the Master has lied before. Honestly, has any show had worsr fans than Doctor Who? Never happy unless you're whining. If the credit said Robert Holmes you'd all be ejaculating over yourselves in excitement.
dale watts mate... great idea. That idea counts for you as well. Also. The entire idea is ridiculous and stupid. The ‘harmful fan base’ only rose this much this time because of the the series 11 & 12. Otherwise we just want great storylines. We disliked Matt at first. We want him back now. We disliked Peter now. We love him. Can you honestly say that 13th has brought anything unique? Without partially breaking it that is. No character development. No cohesion. Nothing. Series 12 is great. At first. But the ending *is* rubbish.
Jeff Smith while the timeless child is bad. The choice to make the bbc tax payer funded was worse. With it the network can push out whatever they feel like even if it’s hot garbage. It’s why they won’t even feel the burn if people tune out from this horrible abomination that used to be a good show.
All these people saying how the Timeless Child should have been the Master. I agree. And maybe it could have worked with your point about how maybe the Doctor could have been the one who tortured the Timeless Child in the first place. Could be a good explanation for why they undid Missy’s Series 10 redemption arc. Because imagine. Missy survives and regenerates into Sacha Dhawan, still wanting to be like the Doctor. Goes back to Gallifrey. Discovers the truth. Burns down Gallifrey in anger and reignites his hatred for the Doctor. After all, why would he want to be anything like the Doctor after that?
In a way, aren't we all the timeless children?
Full Fat Videos
Very true
Chris chibnall reveals that every humanoid to ever live is, infact, The Doctor
The real timeless child was the friends we made along the way.
S13 spoilers!
The Whoniverse mankind that Rose and Jackie ended up with in Doomsday is the ppl that became the Timelords after thier Earth was stolen away from thier Whoniverse and taken over to the classic Whoniverse where it became Mondas.
& Tony Tyler was the birthname of the Doctor.
Can I prove this?
Yes.
Because the classic Earth was stolen from the classic Whoniverse and returned to the new Whoniverse and the classic earth mankind is slowly becoming the new rulers over time (after the classic Earth falls to the Daleks in 5145AD. and it becomes new Skaro.)
Mankind is saved by its President, with his newly built timemachine RIVERS to Trenzalore (the former terraformed Gallifrey).
There is much more.
But ill just mention
Rassilons ascention device (aka the new key to time)
How the dying (Jon Simms) Master saw it as his only way to remain existing so he activated it at the end of the Timewar...
Thus ascendong himself and everyone in the Gallifreyan high counsil.
But. as Gallifrey was frozen at same time. The rest on Gallifrey became trapped in an Schrödinger like state..BOTH being alive and ascended at the same time = they can only move around when they arent observed...
Yes... Those guys...
=
The true enemies in the Timewar between the Timelords and the Daleks wasnt the Daleks at all.
It was the former rulers over time manupulating the Daleks...
The Ragnarookian Rassilons original ppl.
Because our mankind is in an early Timewar with the former Timelords.
....
Give this above a real thought and then realise the Doomsday in Doomsday episode was the June 26th 2010. and when 10th was cut off from Rose in thier call...The new Whoniverse formed outside and around the TARDIS...
All the wedding related stuff from Donna x2 as the bride to the Williams wedding + wedding dress and engagement ring are signals that the TARDIS travel between these 2 Whoniversis. (classic to new or vice versa; twice in Eleventh hour)
"The Timeless Children is an episode where The Master takes The Doctor to Gallifrey in order to show her a PowerPoint presentation that ends with a slide saying 'You were adopted'." - Jay Exci
XD
Couldn’t have said it better myself
Best!!! Explanation!!! Ever!!!🙌🏾😭
Which ultimately makes no difference to how/what/why the Doctor does what they do.
If it was the Master's backstory, at least there's now a backstory *why* he killed all the other Timelords and is a generally twisted character.
I could buy that as a mean-spirited and incredibly petty thing to do if the character was GlaDoS, a malevolent AI that enjoys doing that kind of thing. Can't really see the Master doing that.
"Don't you know who it is?"
"It's me."
"No, *laughs insanely*, it's me."
It would have made so much more sense for the Master to be the Timeless Child: Gives them a reason to have burned down Gallifrey, gives them an explanation for having returned now and always, justifies their eternal unquenchable rage, implicates the doctor in their suffering, gives the Doctor ego problems from feeling inferior...
Oh hey that actually isn’t a bad idea. I like the angle of the Master despising how they have a bit of Doctor running through their veins, but that would’ve been GREAT.
O god that would've been so much better!!!
The Master burnt down Gallifrey and killed everyone on it because all Time Lords had a piece of the Doctor in them. Killing them, to him, was like getting back at the Doctor.
Exactly, when I was thinking who the timeless child could be, I thought one choice would be fantastic whilst the other would be disappointing.
It would have been such a fun angle, the sociopath who thinks they are the centre of everything, actually turns out to be right for a change. Would also have been interesting that the master, as missy, had been slightly redeemed in season 10 but learning this truth sent him/her straight back to mass murderer. It could also be said that the thing that the master saw in the time vortex that drove him mad, was a glimpse of his previous life of torture. It would have worked in many aspects.
Yeah this would of been better, and I hope for next season somehow the master returns and basically there is a plot that says the Master was attempting to make the Doctor fall apart believing their entire life is a lie. But because of the (Ruth) Doctor, nothing happened so he reveals he is actually the timeless child or it was all a lie. Even if it is a cheap escape, it reopens who is Ruth storyline and brings the Doctor back down to the traveller, helping out where they can.
If the Master was the timeless child:
-What he glimpsed in the time vortex that turned him insane was the previous torturous experiments
-Missy (who had been redeemed partially) had a reason to become a mass murderer again
-Gives him a reason to have burnt Gallifrey
-Justifies his megalomania, anger, and desire for revenge on the universe
-Makes the Doctor involved in his eternal torment, which didnt start with the drums after all, but Tecteun, as she can only regenerate due to his torture
-Makes the Doctor inferior
Additionally, there's that line about The Master hating The Doctor because "Part of YOU is inside ME!" Since this (the power of regeneration) has only benefitted The Master, it's doubly childish for this to be why The Master is angry at The Doctor for this. However, having it be The Master, and changing the line to something like "Part of ME is inside YOU - Something you are not entitled to!" would be vastly more understandable.
I love that idea! Plus it means that the master can be in the show as much as they want. The whole Doctor being the timeless child ruins Matt Smith’s regeneration because he got more regeneration energy from the time lords.
Plus you would think some of the Time Lords would know that she is the timeless child so it wouldn’t make sense for them to give extra regenerations
But wasn’t the master a timelord that ran out of regenerations and his villainous deeds were to extend his life?
@@bunny23275The Master was a living corpse.
explain why the fuck they always come back
the Master should have been the Timeless Child, it works with their character and might actually make them sympathetic by making them someone who was forcibly adopted by the gallifreyans, cruelly experimented on and then used even further for various ends, including the drumbeat later seen in the end of time. You could also much more easily explain continuity issues since the Master has a less complicated continuity: that time the Master ran out of regenerations? That was an experiment by the Time Lords where they tried to cut off their ability to regenerate. It could also just explain the Master’s capacity for survival, might make them a much more nuanced and sympathetic villain and, frankly, actually has a theme to it, that being the subversion of that same theme of the chosen one, making the Doctor’s decision to stand against them all the more powerful, or even their earnest attempts to help them that much more powerful
it would make even more sense as for why they chose to put the drums inside the master's head as he could never die and they'd always be safe
The Timeless Child is a Doctor Who plot that had been around for 45 years. It's not something they've made up just now for the sake of shock factor.
I think it would have been best for the Timeless Child to be a completely new character, so that it doesn't erase decades of pre established character with the Master and the Doctor, due to the fact that the Doctor can't be the Other and the Timeless Child at the same time, so either erase 32+ years of lore, or say that the master once again lied to the Doctor.
It so fits with the master character more then the drs it would give us backstory on why the master is so insane and why he hates the time lords so much
@@mightyactionx9391 ok Chris
imagine having a show about an alien with two hearts and incredible amount of inteligence, can regenarte and has a ship that can travel any where in space and time and going " we need to make them more special"
Well those things were special enough when the doctor was just twelve white men. Now the doctor is a stunning and brave WOMAN, the whole back story needs to be elevated to keep up with her new stunning bravery.
And by "special" we really mean "diverse" and by diverse we really mean not male or white.
@@lesigh1749 about as stunning as a Donkey with the shits
Incels have joined the chat
Anyplace in space and time *within Britain*
Exactly what I thought: have no problems with the timeless child, I have problems with the fact that it's the Doctor.
Agreed
yeah it's actually a kind of cool idea and the time Lords aren't exactly saints so it kind of fits but It doesn't really fit like he says in the video
SAME
should have been the master
I agree entirely
So let's just look at what this reveal changed:
- The Doctor is now less relatable
- The Doctor is no longer in danger
Yeah agreed
I don't get it:/
@@jeckjeck3119 The Doctor is less relatable because she's now been a super special person who is superior to those around here from birth, which normal people can't relate to.
The Doctor is no longer in danger since she's literally immortal.
@@sparksparklez
Aren't companions (usually) the ones we should feel related to? Sorry but Bringer of Darkness, Destroyer of Worlds, lord president, fashion disaster of 5 galaxies... He/she never really felt like something I (can't speak for people I don't know) should relate to. What I am saying is that we relate to doctor thru companions. Not thru who/what she/he is. EDIT: And humor. Like 12th said: Don't cut out all the jokes.
@@jeckjeck3119 A larger than life character can still be relatable. In the Doctor's case, they were relatable because they had become someone special through their own efforts rather than just being born special.
What if the master was the timeless child and that realization and torture drove him insane and that why he never dies and always pops back up and it would explain why he'd want to destroy galifrey
That would actually make more sense than having the Doctor be the timeless child. During the Tennant years, the Master was said to have gone "crazy" after appearing into the time vortex as a child.....maybe they could have said that (as a child) the time vertex allowed him to remember what they did to him.
He ran out of regenerations at one point actually, so it can’t be him.
@@shawn980 so did the Doctor though and they still did it. At least with the Master there is a way to make it work.
@@maximustheflyingdutchman859 it doesnt work with anyone.
Adding to this what if the dr was the original tectayun and that’s why the master hates him so much and the master telling the dr she’s the timeless child was just the masters twisted sense of humour because he’s insane from the time lords experiments which to him where torture and what if the regeneration for the master was painful because the power was taken from him and given to the shobogans also the word shobogan makes me cringe because it makes me think of bogans from Australia 🤣🤣🤣
I hope to god the next show runner reveals that the Master lied and instead was talking about himself as that would make far more sense.
That'd be a good step...but I won't watch it again unless they retcon the events of that episode out of existence entirely, and say none of it happened (including the cyber time lord nonsense and the "Gallifrey destroyed again" nonsense).
This is my headcanon regardless. It makes perfect sense to why he would be so angry and quick to return to his pre-missy ways. The thing he has been fighting for all his life (immortalitliy) is something he had by birthright which the timelords steal off him and to make it worse then wipe his memory, conviently turn him mad just to benefit their ends. The only way to get anywhere close to this was for him to earn his timelord status and 13 lives. No wonder he burnt Gallifrey down.
100 percent
Honestly I'd be perfectly happy if the next show runner simply treated the Chibnall era like what it is: a fan fic. You don't need to explain or retcon a fan fic out of existence, you don't need to acknowledge a fan fic at all. It's just automatically not canon. Pick up where Capaldi left off and keep right on going without so much as a nod that this ever happened. Perfect solution.
Well judging by the special, looks like they’re just gonna double down on the fact that this is indeed canon.
The Master should've been the Timeless Child.
It would explain his obsession with immortality, he always instinctually feeling that he should never die. His deep, unyielding hatred of the Timelords. Hell, make Rassalon more of a villain by saying the drumbeat implanted into the Master's head was what helped jar his memory loose. It would also work with his relationship with The Doctor, Time Lords being the thing he hates the most but finding a truly good friend in one and the conflict of feelings.
It would also mean that everything he went through to stay alive including back pre revival when at one point he was a wrecked shell of a man was uneccessary and entirely due to the timelords locking away his regeneration ability.
Tyler Davis when TH-cam comments make more sense then the show. Lol
@@SpiderAds-86 how could they have stripped his regenerations away if he was the Timeless Child though?
@@plazasta if they could turn it on in themselves it would stand to resson they could turn it off or at least suspend it in him. And that's a reason to hate them. Look at him in the deadly assassin.
@@SpiderAds-86 but no, they're Time Lords, he'd be a Timeless Child, not a Time Lord. Just because they can do it to themselves doesn't mean they can disable it in him
Also Clara went through the doctor's entire timeline wouldn't she see the doctor's past even if he forgot it
Well, I'm not gonna act like Doctor Who has always kept perfect continuity, but to be fair, that was a different TARDIS that she entered.
The Morbius Doctors and Ruth all had their own TARDIS, and after their memory was wiped, the 1st Doctor (Hartnell) stole his own TARDIS.
Wilo Polis yet Ruth still has a blue police box somehow?
@@WiloPolis03 Tardis is irrelevant entirely, it's the Doctor timeline, not the Tardis's. If the Doctor had died somewhere else, Clara still would have been able to enter the timestream. The Tardis just happened to be the location, and the location is irrelevant.
wait when?
Clara went through the doctor's entire timeline BUT she never saw the War Doctor, so we can imagine some wibbly wobbly theory like she only go to the timeline of THE doctor and not the moment where the Doctor wasn't THE Doctor like before Hartnell and the War Doctor
One of the things ruined by this arc is River Song who became a time-lady by being conceived through the time vortex which is where the doctor said his people gained regeneration
Oh no, River Song being ruined, how terrible
@@PsyrenXY what?
I hope that the story arc changes to be some one else
The only possible way to canonically rectify that is to have made River Song The Doctor and Amy's daughter, but that would introduce incest...
@@themadwarden6603 or the doctor could've also been conceived in the time vortex
Next showrunner will reveal that the Master either lied or misunderstood the truth. Mark my words.
OrangeKyle91 That’s what I think. We still have season 13. I hope.
I wish. Probably never gonna happen tho
I hope your right. But how would a new showrunner explain the fugitive doctor?
@@TheEvilinsanity The memory wipe explanation still works, even if the circumstances under which it was carried out change.
@Julien Billard The Ruth reveal was an idea I though could also work, make her doubt her own past.
And another plot twist for the Doctor, would be the Master revealing to her, that she had met the timeless child before and briefly traveled with them.
Rule 1 : The Doctor Lies
Rule 1a: The Master Lies
This is the only way I am coping.
Matthew Osborne unfortunately, that won’t be the case.
Frozen Lizard you’ve got to have faith
@@expodesed Why? Not the first series that jumped the shark.
And Ruth is from a parallel universe
@@Poppy_and_ponies later incarnation when intersectional feminism has a turn on the wheel
The timeless child absolutely ruins so much for The Doctor. They're extraordinary for choosing to be different not for being born different GODDAMMIT
100%
But if The Doctor didn't know the truth this whole time, this statement is untrue. They had no idea they were "born special". I seriously hate fandoms at this point honestly lol
@@autumwho still, it means they didn’t make him/herself a legend through their deeds and instead they were meant to be this amazing being and cheapens not only this doctor’s series but the story built by the other doctors’ series.
@@autumwho Well that's kind of the point the video is making, if by your logic the Doctor is still this random wonderer who's not special but chose to do good. Why did we need an entire series arc, 2 if you count Ghost Monument to merely add what is in the end some random backstory. If by your logic they're a random Timelord wondering the universe, write a series arc about them wondering the universe......... Davies and Moffat did it for 12-13 years on end. If they're still the same seemingly not special by birthright wonderer after a 2 series arc dedicated to rewriting their backstory as some mythical being from an unknown place who clearly had abilities beyond the Gallifreyans at that point making her different and special by birth, isn't that just a monumental waste of time? Your sticking with the established trope despite the inclusion of a backstory which clearly changes the original trope. It's like you want to include the new story but say it has no impact.........
@@autumwho right? Like, the fact that they were "born different" has no bearing on them becoming this extraordinary being, beyond the fact that they won't die. They still chose to travel the universe righting wrongs that they encountered and no amount of actually being an immortal from birth would change that.
The whole thing of the Master burning down Gallifrey felt so Chibnall, too. The Master has been a multifaceted character under Davies and Moffat who the Doctor believed had remnants of good. They were a character who wanted their old Friend back in 12. Who 12 dedicated a series to trying to rehabilitate. Who 10 had a heart-to-heart to about Gallifrey perishing. Who took on the Time Lords and let the Doctor stand aside in the End of Time.
It feels like Chibnall didn't watch any of that when he decided the Master would just raze Gallifrey to the ground because he found out he had part of the Doctor's DNA. It would have been more interesting if he burned everything out of empathy for the Doctor or because he felt like it was *his* life that had been a lie.
Wait, I always thought it was empathy. Like “they hurt you so I’ll burn them”?
Ever since The Deadly Assassin I assumed the Master was a future incarnation of the Doctor.
all that and also the way the Spy Master doesn't even fit in canon timeline very well. he has to be after Missy based on things he knows, but Missy was firstly shot and secondly became Lumiat. It felt like the spy master was written as a copy of Saxon (personality-wise) completely ignoring Missy's redemption arc and growth. disappointing.
And just how does one person burn down an entire planet??? It's such a cartoony statement...
The Timeless Child as it's own character would've made an interesting villain for The Doctor to face on a reoccurring basis too. It would have every reason to want to exterminate every Time Lord
right? Imagine a person who has been experimented on for centuries (who says that regenerating is the only thing they stole?) and then has been basically forgotten somewhere in a basement, regenerating again and again without human contact, because they can't die? Imagine the insanity of starving to death a literal infinite number of times.
Sounds like Durge from Star Wars.
Oh you mean similar to how we had a Time Lord villain in Omega who was sacrificed for the discovery of Time Travel.
@@JoelEverettComposer yeah, but not dead and makes The Master look like a boy scout
@@InaZeaAnaZazi I didn't even think about the "being forgotten" part. How evil would our version of the Timeless Child be, if it had been locked up in a cellar on Gallifrey, alone, and left to starve to death, only to regenerate and starve to death again for.... how many centuries?
The only good thing we got out of The Timeless Child was that we now know that Rowan Atkinson is a confirmed regeneration of the Doctor
lmao
Briggs2 Okay, you've made it all better.
And I bloody love You for that
"But who is the Timeless Child, Doctor?"
"I'll explain later."
Unfortunately not true because the master was in that story. It wouldn’t make sense even in this fucked up continuity.
Haha. Briggs2, you sir are my hero.
In "Angels take Manhattan" the doctor heals River's broken wrist with his regeneration energy.....
With the timeless child reveal, he can essentially heal all of his companions and anyone who gets injured around him... forever..... with 0 risk of running out of regeneration energy......
ITS NO FUN WHEN SHE IS INVINCIBLE
Dan M I’m not in any way protecting the “Timeless Child” arc, but I think he was able to heal River because she is a time lord (kind of) and can regenerate. So I assume that regeneration energy doesn’t work on humans.
Only IF the assumption is correct that this ability still IS active in "the child". Fueling so many regenerations over tens of thousands of years could have damaged it or minimized what energy "the child" has left and that will some day in the future be their cop out to "keep the question if the doctor survives this or not thrilling".
Don't see it as a story told to it's completion, see it as a halfbaked brainfart that was thrown out there, but needs serious expansion to make sense and so most of the story isn't told yet.
ilikebacon As I understood it, in 9x01 and 9x02 regeneration energy didn’t resurrect daleks, it kinda “powered them up” or something, because the “sewers” weren’t actually dead.
ilikebacon Maybe, idk
the clip of Jodie laughing outside of the show was more in character than any episode she's done
true...
Damn, I wish this wasn't true.
@@ooooneeee ik right shes a good actress just this season wasn't all that tbh
She is an ok actress, it's just the writing team to blame for this episode
@@mysterykiddo2167 she could work for this role with good writing but that's not always the case.
3rd Doctor: Had no infinite regeneration but still prefered to lose one of his lives instead of letting any other people to go to the Planet of Spiders cuz it would kill them;
5th Doctor: Had no infinite regeneration and yet gave Peri the only antidote to the disease that was killing both of them and lost one more life;
9th Doctor: had no infinite regeneration, but chose to sacrifice his 9th life to save Rose ;
10th Doctor: had no infinite regeneration but gave his 10th life to save Willfred from the radiation;
11th Doctor: was going to die of old age stuck in a planet, but still decided to protect the people to the very end;
13th Doctor: Has infinite regeneration but still prefer to let an old man(who suffered his entire life in the Cyber-wars when he finaly had the chance to be free and live the rest of his life happily) to sacrifice himself in her place without a thinking twice.
the 10th doctor's first regeneration is a plot hole in itself. if it's possible to heal himself without changing appearance why does he ever change appearance? yes i know it's because they need to change the actor but from a story point it doesn't make sense
the only thing i can think of is the energy needs a living thing to flow into
@@theimortal1974 The way it's explained (I think) is that to keep the same body a timelord needs something with matching biology for the rest of the energy to flow into. It doesn't make sense though. Surely regeneration heals BY completely resetting the timelords biology, otherwise why change at all.
Don't forget 12:Had no infinite regeneration, and gave his life to save a random town of people, because it was right, because it was decent. And above all, Kind.
@@theimortal1974 in the show he says the regeneration healed him then he passed the excess energy into his other hand which is technically a part of him and is damaged so it does make sence to a certain degree. Clearly when the doctor regenerates it heals him first then the excess changes him. I mean we've already seen this to be the case with 10 after the radiation and 11 when he got younger again before he changed. 10 was just lucky enough to have his hand there so he didn't have to go through with the 2nd part
How does it feel to live long enough to see all your favorite franchises go down in flames?
Doctor Who, Star Wars, Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, I could go on. This truly is the worst timeline.
Dude yes yes, that's so true. And I heard Netflix is going to make a series off my favorite book - Chronicles of Narnia (This book literally changed my childhood) - I am afraid. Not only that, but Amazon is working in a Lord Of The Rings series too.
Absolutely depressing to be honest
@@Ghost-ql3hl It is thoroughly depressing. But at the same time - as a writer, I have a glimmer of hope.
I'll write some stuff and make some comics, and I will - gasp - not make them poorly-written, ideological crap. If the big companies insist on ruining all of the other franchises, I might have a chance to be successful.
That's literally all I can think of as a positive in this situation.
Eh, this is like the third fourth after a while you get use to it
Could've been worse, Ruth could've said "Hello, I'm [Doctor's real name]"
That sounds like one of the worst thing that could happen
Delete this before Chinballs see it and thinks it's a brilliant idea
[Karen]
[Keith]
[John Smith]
The timeless child allowing the Doctor to regenerate because they saw all the people the Doctor helped would be so amazing. Why is every fan’s idea better than Chibnall’s?
Because Chibnall's writing is so bad many erotic fanfictions written by edgy cosplayers showcase better writing and plots than his abominable creations.
Because he is a mental midget.
To be fair, it's not really china's idea. He just stole it. Lots of his scenes were reused from older episodes
Everyone's trashing on the finale but in just annoyed that captain Jack was only in the series for 10 BLOODY MINUTES. WHat was the point in him being there?
To get viewers
That Welsh Guy But it was a surprise
Young Nation
Get people to watch it
Adding to the 7 day ratings figure and to keep some viewers on hoping for Jack to come back
Space Penguins It was just fan service. They announced that Jack wasn’t returning in this series after his appearance half way through. But I agree it was stupid, why was Jack warning the Doctor about “The Lone Cyberman” when it all amounted to fuck all?
Young Nation
A lot of people were still holding out for a return
And even if he didn’t come back the cameo was just there to make everyone “like” this series more because it’s the one that brought Jack back
(And yeah how did he know about that lone Cybermen)
Would make more sense if the Master was the Timeless Child.
A nemesis that cannot be killed permanently and has good reason to be 'broken' mentally.
the master literally refused to regenerate in last of the timelords, it would really be an even better drive for their rage
@@thebeansarecomingforyou1581 it still makes sense if Missy refused to regen. They hate what happened to them and want release. That'll be bombastic
Just commented the same thing - I think this would make so much more sense. Also, looking at the other replies here, it would explain how the Master keeps dying completely and finally with no possibiliy of ever coming back ever ... and then coming back.
Fanboy Akyso Am i the only one still asking why we got no reason as to why the master is back despite having seen what happened to Missy?
@@seasnek7024 Honestly I was waiting for an explanation all season long and I mean it just never happened. I was rather disappointed at that especially since Missy's character development was something I really loved.
Two things imo would've made this ok:
1) The Master is the Timeless Child; his reaction of genocide/hatred would've been justified.
2) The Timeless child isn't her, it's just someone and as you said, pose the Question "Is it right for me to use this stolen power?". This also could link to number 1.
That's actually along the lines of what I was thinking. It'd be more interesting from a story perspective to make The Master the timeless child and The Doctor the scientist that extracted regeneration and gave it to the time lords.
It'd also shed light on why the two characters are simultaneously close AND at odds with each other at the same time.
I liked how the doctor was just a random guy who ran away and wasn't anyone really special. He would eventually become special because of what he would do and how long he has been around.
The real timeless child was the friends we made along the way
This is a very underappreciated comment
@@myweirdartstuff1258 I agree
Come on this is Doctor Who the real timeless child is the memory of the friends we got killed along the way.
This makes no sense
The good thing is nobody is going to really care about this in 10 years. It'll be one of those things that was done in Doctor Who that was never revisited. Honestly no showrunner is gonna make a whole season surrounding this again, so it'll be one of those forgotten bits of canon like the doctor being half human in the past.
I can imagine this episode being brought up as a fun fact on top 10 lists 20 years from now alongside other wierd and dumb stuff in who cannon, like the Doctor becoming an evil dictator in the future of the 7th doctors foreskin being on display In a museum.
(No seriously that last one is true)
Yeahhh, like Susan or the Watcher or something. Hopefully you're right.
the doctor was half human in the past?
@@soupsoup8006 yeah it's one of those things that was technically canon but hasn't really been acknowledged in new who so people mostly ignore it.
@@soupsoup8006 stated one time by Paul McGann in that movie. I never heard it anywhere else.
Can’t wait for the next reveal that every human looking person in the entire universe is actually the Doctor.
well even tho we never seen it the 9th doctor said "or no head at all" implying he doesnt have to be strictly human, so why not let him/her just be the universe
The Master already did that
@@michaelmartin9022 Except in this case, they are all different incarnations and have different faces.
I wonder how many versions of the same TARDIS can be operational in the universe at the same time, before it starts causing problems to the structural ingetrity of space/time?
Don't even joke, that actually sounds like something that could happen.
At some point he goes down some very dark path judging by Davros, The Master, Hitler. Is Sutekh his final incarnation.
I know I am a year late but I just want to say that this "Timeless Child" thing sounds like it was written by a 15 year old who ran out of ideas
dont diss 15 year olds like that, i dont think even they could come up with something as horribly written as the whole timeless child thing
nope they knew excalty what they where doing!
Then why is it hinted during the 1st Doctor and 4th Doctor eras? Times where most of us aren't even born yet.
"About six years ago everyone was annoyed the moon turned out to be an egg."
*SIX YEARS AGO!?*
It feels like 6 weeks ago ;_;
*HAHAAAAA* YALL ARE *OLD*
I actually found the episode really good and had no problem with the fact that the moon is an egg
It was an interesting moral dilemma which was irrelevant the moon was an egg. It was a good story.
That makes me feel much older than it really should
Hope they retcon this by making it the Master’s biggest troll ever.
And if ruth was also the master but was in on the whole thing
Jack Burns Or just a future version of the Doctor with amnesia.
That's the Master for ya!
ONLY way with current writers and actress, but not holding my breath.
There would be no Retcon in that case, that would just be charachter consistency
"forcing the child to regenerate"
Repeatedly murdering.
That's it. Just say it! All of these "reviewers" using PC lingo to detract from the real issue of deliberate, repeated pedicide (the killing of children- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_types_of_killing)!
@@itstimeforlee Oh, okay then, we'll call it near-death then and say things like "it's just waterboarding the child" from now on...
Phillip Rhoades it would be attempted murder I suppose... though failing at murdering a child is hardly any better than actually doing it
@@hombreg1 Regeneration has always been treated as a kind of death in the series as well.
@@arealassassin I thought they were using PC lingo because TH-cam would demonetize them.
Honestly the idea of the timeless child is really cool, but having the doctor be the timeless child ruins it.
Dude, the Doctor being the Timeless Child is a plot that had been around for 45 years. It's not something the showrunners did just now for the sake of shock factor.
@@mightyactionx9391 it still doesn’t make any sense. Before it was hinted at but not directly stated so stop dickriding a bad idea
@@thesaucegod3136 So what? The plots, the hints, the storylines of the Tom Baker tenure that all linked to the Timeless Child does not exist. Much as well say that the entire run of the 4th Doctor should be erased since it's the root of the Timeless Child.
@@mightyactionx9391 bro it’s about how it’s handled
@@thesaucegod3136 And how sould it had been handled? Enlighten me, Genius.
That's it folks, Whowians finally got their own "cursed child'. Let's just pretend this didn't happen.
Ayy disappointed potterhead?
When the cursed child came out i thoughy i still had the og books and held on.
Now DW has also pulled the bullshit and ruined itself beyond comprehension, the clips of Eccelston , David,Matt,Capaldi made me cry about how the character they all played now was utterly butchered. The pain,anger,optimism,will they showed all amounts to nothing now.
My head canon is that the final capaldi season was before river and the doctor pseudo perma retired with river, its the pwrfect sendoff and ending
This timeline kinda is iffy in my opinion. Don't forget that the 11th Doctor accidentally wiped away virtually the entire universe and had to restart it with a tiny bit of the original materials and himself absent from the rebooted universe. That tiny change to the universe from it's very origin could cause minor differences to slowly build up over the eons... Then Clara inserted herself into the Doctor's incredibly universe-altering timeline that even extends across multiple universes and the areas in between...
Well... This literally isn't the same universe, ever since Doctor #11. I just hope that Doctor Who eventually has another universe "reboot" or a plot where the Doctor goes to somewhere in the weaving mass of timelines and parallel universes where the writing is a bit deeper and more thought out.
Hopefully things change before the Doctor ends up making a robotic cat named F.E.__ (pronounced "feline")
The 90s movie already did that
@@__jonbud______________________ There's no proof that it's actually different, the universe occupies the same space with all the same things in the same places, the only exception is Amy's parents. Nothing you said is substantiated in the show. Basically just head canon.
The Timeless Child should've been The Master, it wouldn't have necessarily made more sense, but it fits his character a whole lot more and would feed his ego to its absolute breaking point.
I think it would have been a much more interesting take. First of all his madness could be explained by the torture and experimentation inflicted upon him by early Gallifreyans; even if his memory has been wiped he may still carry deep subconscious scarring. In addition it would give him a better motivation to destroy Gallifrey the way he did hen he learned the truth.
It would definitely make more sense for it to be the Master
@@hamsandwich4243 Unfortunately things that make sense don't sUbVeRt ExPeCtAtIoNs.
Ithought it could've been Rassilon, as then the master was cast out by people who tortured a child to become almost immortal before brain washing them to use as a war hero and to become fully immortal, which gives reason to both their actions. It also makes the Doctor more depth as they have more reasons to dislike the time lords but they also actively went after the the Master to punish them for being angry at the time lords for good reasons, muddying the waters of the conflict
"What makes you so special!?"
"Nothing, I'm just a kid from Brooklyn"
FUCKING A
What if the Timeless Child was Susan? This would fit in with what we know: the Doctor running away in a stolen Tardis taking a girl with her who may not actually be his real granddaughter. Finding out about the Child in an attempt to do the right thing and free the creature to give it a proper childhood with family and learning, could be something very Doctor-like and fit eith the established timeline.
interesting. Meaning the doctor might fulfill his/her promise to see her again and Susan's actress did want to return to dr who. But that is debatable
Seriously, this as well as every other idea or theory presented in the video is a better story than what we got. I really tried to get on board with the timeless child plot and tried to accept it but I just can't.
Would also give the doctor that he finally has someone to understand why being in a way, immortal can be a very difficult curse to accept especially with tens reasoning with Lazarus, “in the end you just get tired… tired of the struggle to watch everything you know and love… turn to dust…”
No God no
@@vollied4865 why not?
The Spider-Man analogy was perfect.
thank you!
@@FullFatVideos I enjoy all your uploads especially the Doctor Who content.
@Jacob Wood Maybe Sam's rendition of Spidey is his favourite. I know it's mine!
@Jacob Wood
Not true. Andrew Garfield's Spider-man was chosen by fate through birthright and Tom Holland's Spider-man was basically adopted by Iron man. Both are antithetical to Spider-man's characterization and background.
@@bluehero-96 I gotta disagree with your characterisation of Holland's Spiderman. Whilst it's true he may have been elevated to the big leagues by Tony, he was already out there as our friendly neighbourhood Spiderman. It was only through his exploits on youTube that Tony found him.
Twist in the next season: The Master is actually the timeless child. His turn to evil is the result of his torture. He has lied to The Doctor as part of a diabolical plan.
I hope so, and then perhaps they could have the Ruth doctor be the doctor from another universe, perhaps not Roses universe, but another one nonetheless, which would explain why she wouldn't remember Jodies doctor.
@@jackguy564 Actually, I'm thinking if The Doctor is not the timeless child, then this is his/her last regeneration. However, as with how other Time Lords got their regeneration, through blood transfusion or DNA transference or whatever they did from the timeless child, perhaps The Doctor will somehow get another one. The downside, all memory is wiped when a new set of regenerations begin, a fresh start. It would explain how Jodie and Ruth don't recognise each other.
If The Master is actually the timeless child, that would explain how he would survive Missy being shot dead point blank. I was told years ago that such a direct act would kill The Doctor for good. Otherwise he wouldn't really be in any danger when there are threats on his life since he could simply regenerate.
I am dying for that to be the case, the timeless child is truly the worst plot twist ever.
@@jackguy564 ruth could also simply be the master.
That makes a lot more sense, really.
River song, got her regeneration powers just from trailing in the Tardis before being born. No time lord experimentation needed then....
Yeah that breaks that whole bit of lore.
Maybe they’ll say the timeless child was exposed to the temporal schism and gained powers that way, in which case there’s no point in having a bloody timeless child.
That is one plot hole. The only explanation I can come with for that is that the Timeless Child got regeneration powers in the same way, but stronger for whatever reason, and being born/conceived inside or next to a time vortex is the real source of regeneration powers.
@@weightyarmamentsfellow I'm not sure if that was ever stated.
Honestly I don't care because I hated River Song, ngl.
@@firetarrasque4667 Hello Sweetie!
The show has had the same problems with companions too, making them too special. That’s why I loved Rose so much. She was ordinary, relatable, and incredible.
Sometimes a god but yah
@@luigitrippitelli2333 lmaooo fair point
I couldn't stand Rose. Twice she was responsible for people dying. Her boyfriend Mickey was being disrespected by The Doctor, Rose said nothing in Mickey's defense. She always came across as a bimbo. Rose's mother Jackie was more likeable
@@johnanthonylucock7833 fair point in regards to Mickey, but hard to take your criticism seriously when you're calling women "bimbos." It's very disrespectful
Rose was good on series 1 but I'm not a huge fan of her in the subsequent series. Still, regular and ordinary people going on adventures with the doctor and helping out is on the heart of the show imo.
The master being the timeless child would be an INFINITELY better twist.
100% agree and makes so much more sense
Let's hope for a retcon then
@@jellybabyman961 Yeah, something like: the Master lied and switched the roles so that the Doctor would be just as upset as them.
Here's a quick fix for doctor who, the master always lies, he lies everytime
@DANK Oh, God, please.
Can we also retcon Star Trek and Star Wars at the same time?
DANK
or.... we could just have a competent actor in general?
DANK don’t be silly lol. i think jodie is a good actress, but she can’t really act on it due to chibnall’s poor writing. if the character is compromised, there’s really nothing the actor can do. i just want chibnall gone and the last 2 seasons completely forgotten.
DANK the current doctor is endearing, relatable and was the right transition from the twelfth. The transition from eleven to twelve was to show that the doctor can’t ever be a normal person. He can’t have romantic relationships and he can’t fall in love and I feel like we al needed that reminder. The twelfth doctor taught that although he is the last of his kind, he isnt alone. He started as a closed off and bitter person because he wasn’t being truthful to himself, he as the eleventh was playing pretend acting as if he could be someone who flirts and goes on “dates”. The 12 doctor was his realization that he was different and that part of life isn’t an option. But he learned kindness and mercy and learned the importance of friendship. The 13th is a great doctor who adds onto the story line and was the right choice for the transition from the 11th who was playing pretend, to the 12th who was bitter in realization, to her the 13th who is the doctor understanding in some sense who she is.
DANK this isn’t to say that the episode plots aren’t SHIT because the show running is fucking terrible but the doctor herself is actually in my opinion the right choice, she is well rounded character and her personality brings the doctor further into her understanding of who she is. Not because she’s a girl but because her character is just right.
I have one objection. You say the timeless child ruins the doctor because the doctor was "just another time Lord" but that's incorrect. The most fascinating thing, the thing that gets ruined, is that the Doctor was a shitty time Lord. He was below average. He barely passed his classes, and barely got into the academy. Every other time Lord loathed to see him.
And yet, I can't help but feel that this revelation is only an extension of Moffitt's run in which every Arc focused on why the doctor was "so important." And pretty much painted the picture that all of space and time revolved around him.
I think the timeless child should have been a villain like the master. Ending in a story where to stop them the doctor gives up on regeneration to show the timeless child that the timelords can change and are willing to change. She ofc would get them back because the show has to go on but that way the doctor would still be someone who is special through theire actions.
Yeah and the power would be infinite regenerations
Honestly, if there had to be a timeless child it should've been the Master.
Or just someone we don't know about. Someone else mentioned how they could've become a good villain for the doctor to have to fight because they hate the timelords for what they did to them.
oh no you know nothing you think i would actually tell you the honest truth for once in my lives no doctor that was just a myth that you missed when sick as a child. that's the jist of what i WANT to happen
You haven’t seen The Deadly Assassin, The Keeper Of Traken,The Five Doctors and Planet Of Fire. Or do we just drive a truck through that as well?
@@eddherring4972 I'd rather not have a timeless child at all (or as someone above said, just have it be a new villain character), but better the Master than the Doctor imo.
I'd prefer if the doctor had been one of the scientists experimenting on the timeless child, if we'd do this story at all.
In my mind, season 11 and 12 never happened, the last episode of Doctor who was Capaldi's finale.
Fr tho stopped watching after Capaldi
I love how s11 and 12 were so bad that the majority of the fans would rather the doctor be literally dead
For me too.
Capaldi actually regenerated as a ginger and became so excited he passed out and this is all a fever dream. Or, maybe it was a ploy by the dream lord? Maybe the dream lord is the master and has been manipulating the doctor all along? idk man, I hope Chibbs changes it.
Same here bro
Really, I just assume that The Master is lying. He's telling the Doctor all this just to fuck with her. Its the kind of thing he would do after all.
Yes! This is it! You, my possibly American friend, are right!
This needs a million more likes haha.
yeap, or reveal that at the end, the master is the timeless child...
Exactly, been saying that in the comments of every other goddamn video on the subject
I mean, they still undermined all the Master's character development since the End of Time in favor of the static, unchanging machievellian villain he is now.
The concept of the first Doctor being the one who experimented on her is a pretty good one, but I think it'd be so much better if The Master was the Timeless Child. That way we would have a villain who is infinity stronger than the hero, and that would make things so much more interesting. Imagine the Doctor now knowing that her ultimate nemesis is immortal, the sense of dread she felt would have hit her and the audience so much harder. It would also explain why The Master was so angry at Gallifrey that he burned the whole planet to the ground. Feeling betrayed enough as he already was, this new found information would have tipped him over the egde (considering he spent a lifetime as a decaying husk).
My theory is that was the intent, but that the bbc got involved. If the doctor had gone against the master after the story we heard it would make her seem like the bad guy, which I believe similarly happened with the end of time and time lord victorious concept. I think the BBC is a lot more at fault with the flaws in who then many realize
MY THEORY: RASSILON is the timeless child.
he was already credited in classic who for having more regenerations and thought to be immortal. he is also partially credited for giving timelords regeneration. after the doctor kicked him off gallifrey he wanted revenge so like how he gave the master drums, he gave the doctor some of his memories when he looked into the vortex. multiple times in classic who the doctor would absentmindedly mention regenerations he never had and would sometimes say he stole the TARDIS and others say he built her.
ruth was jenny-the doctors daughter which explained why thier DNA was the same. rassilon kidnapped her and messed with her head as well as giving her a matching TARDIS. he gave her memories of the doctor up to 12 which was the last doctor rassilon saw so she didnt regognise 13. he enterd the matrix (something that could only be done with rassilon's key) and hacked it which classic who proves is possible.
he did all this for revenge on the doctor. during the war he became paranoid, petty and vindictive. 12 took away everything he worked for and rassilon is now an insane genius.
Just my theory.
Love the idea of Ruth being Jenny
tnx. i thought that after fugitive of the judoon but it doesn't work as well now
What about Omega, he literally had no head and didn’t regenerate
Forgot about Jenny. I always want them to retcon the timeless child as Doctor's ancestors but I didn't think of Jenny.
This better happen
"I've taken lives but I got worse I got clever, manipulated people into taking their own" - The Doctor
From when in the series is this? I'm curious
@@mosimosi9829 The End Of Time Part 2
When he said that to Wilfred I immediately thought of the 7th doctor and was like......yeah, yeah he did lol
@@stevengarcia5720 The Waters of Mars; he saves Adelaide, thus changing a fixed point in time, and she kills herself.
@@crimsonmitsuko That made him freak out as well and realize he was giving in. Self righteous justification that he knew all and best with no one to stop him, the timelord victorious. Always thought that moment deserved more mention.
The writers are so bad at writing female characters they LITERALLY Clara'd the Doctor!
*The Impossible Girl = The Timeless Child*
Thing is, even the Impossible Girl, whatever you think about it, was in the end about what Clara did. Becoming the Impossible Girl was her choice, she made the decision to jump into the Doctor's timestream. Whatever else you think about that story, it gave Clara her agency and what made her special wasn't anything she was born with, but her own actions born out of bravery and compassion.
The Doctor becoming the timeless child wasn't a result of courage or hope or compassion, it was just a fact of her birth.
TL:DR: At least the Impossible Girl storyline, whatever else you think about it, was based on Clara's own decision and a celebration of her agency and own qualities. The Timeless Child was just how the Doctor was born, without any choice or anything she independently did. So I'd argue it's worse.
I actually quite liked The Impossible Girl. The show has just gone to shit since Chinball took over though.
I liked TIG, but it was because I liked Clara and she had a reason to be TIG.
TTC had no reason behind it, unless it turns out that The Doctor is the one who did the experiments and wanted to forget it all, essentially resetting herself and becoming the boy we saw at the farm.
You should be grateful for the impossible girl. She disproves any of this actually happened to The Doctor. Don’t you think she would’ve told him that he was born a black girl if she had seen that which she would have by jumping into his time stream?
@@MamaMOB - You'd have an excellent point, if the showrunners hadn't already demonstrated that they don't care even a little bit about violating all previously established canon.
10th Doctor: "I'm not just a Time Lord. I'm the last of the Time Lords."
Chibnall: "I'm about to ruin this man's whole career."
An interesting wrinkle: Andrew Cartmel actually publicly criticized the Timeless Child reveal recently. He said that The Cartmel Master Plan was something that they were mostly going to hint at and leave breadcrumbs for, not something that they were ever going to fully explain, hence why it was supposed to return mystery to the show.
I find it interesting that even the person that Chibnall is ripping off thinks that this was executed horribly.
Omg that kills me the SHADE of it all 😭😭💀💀
And he was the script editor of the some of best classic DW episodes ever (from what I've heard). That's how you know you reeeeaallly screwed up. I'm probably not gonna watch the CC episodes lol.
@@mackielunkey2205 Oh yeah, 2/3 of Cartmel's seasons were really good. I highly recommend most of McCoy's final two seasons. It was very bold and experimental and had some really trippy stuff. It can be hard to follow at times, but it's really rewarding if you can get past that.
There was one simple change that could've made sense: Make the child the master. He already has a god complex, now he has shit to back it up
Elliott Owain and something like that would make him lose his mind with ego, which COULD with a capital COULD explain why this new master apparently forgets being missy
It also justifies why he destroyed Gallifrey much better. "Wah, my rival is special and I'm not" is a justification for a tantrum. "Regeneration was my birthright and the Time Lords stole it with torture that drove me so mad that even memory-wiping wouldn't cure it" is justification for a genocide.
Except that undermines the point of the Master then. The Master isn’t supposed to be justified in thinking he’s special, he’s supposed to be wrong, the Doctor’s point for fifty years is that you choose to be special. Making THE MASTER God of all Time Lords would justify his egomania.
@@elliottwatt5297 *cue David Tennant speech about* "Oh, you're special. Oh you were hurt. Welcome to the universe. It doesn't mean you can go around spreading the hurt to everyone you think is less special than you." Him being special doesn't make him right, it makes him the perfect foil to The Doctor's self made man. Making The Master "a god" doesn't justify his megalomania, it makes The Doctor's standing up to him all the more noble and heroic.
Aaron Brown no it literally does justify his megalomania. If he’s the reason the most powerful race in the universe exists then he’s always been right about himself. It justifies his feelings of superiority over the other Time Lords, just in the way the Doctor being the Child justifies their moral superiority over the time lords. It’s cheap and easy. You can argue that it makes the Doctor look better by comparison but it still means the Doctor is a result of torturing the Master, that everything they’ve ever done is a result of his mistreatment, that sounds like a pretty justifiable reason for the Master to take credit for the Doctor’s good, while blaming them for their own wrongs. I’m not saying the Master is right, I’m just saying that maybe the clever thing to do is to make everyone accountable for their actions, and not have destiny decide who’s good and who’s bad.
To summarize: The concept of the Timeless Child was great until they tied it into the Doctor themself.
Nope. The concept is still bollocks.
Eric Hurd Nah, I don’t mind the idea of the Timeless Child. I don’t even mind the Timeless Child being tied to someone like the Master. I do take offence to the Timeless Child being the Doctor.
Eric Hurd wrong
I’ve been watching so many videos about this recently, I love how much the Doctor Who fandom has turned against the Timeless Child
Yeah, my only concern is that people think this means doctor who is done for good. Maybe I’m naive, but I’m sure that the next show runner will fix things or completely ignore this lore if Chris doesn’t clean up the mess
@@gooper3644 I agree with you on this, Chibnall’s era sucks big-time but that doesn’t mean Doctor Who is doomed, just that it’s kinda meh right now when it doesn’t need to be
Jonathan Marshall Yeah exactly, I’m sure it will blow over. Plenty of weird choices for lore in the past which went completely ignored in the future
And as a Star Wars fan,I'm not sure I'm enjoying this drama or dreading to what happened to my favorite franchises 😂😭
@@claudius3359I think Star Wars is different as something like this has never happened before for Star Wars, the prequels were only really hated years after the fact and aren't actually bad at all, they're arguably as good as the OT and most of the hate is derived from comparisons to the OT despite the biggest flaw being a flaw the OT also has in the dialogue but I digress. Who has had issues like this before and has recovered by retconning or ignoring it, so I don't think it's an issue overall. Star Wars is dead unless Disney or whoever takes the reigns next retconns or ignores the sequels altogether
I am a lot like the master, once I learned the "Truth", I wanted to burn the show
Did you laugh and wear a bizarre outfit?
@@TheMaestroMizerous yes
I think Chinballs beat you to it.
@@radioactivecheesenowinnucl4746 holy shit you fucking killed him
@@TheMaestroMizerous ("Laugh" -> more technically, "giggle diabolically")
Did the Master ever actually explain how he knew the child was the Doctor? Could he be lying? He's hardly a reliable narrator, and the Matrix was corrupted. I think there's enough ambiguity there that it could be retconed fairly easily!
It was a lie a red herring created by the master.
@@fivish I hope they don't explicitly contradict it... Just throw in a line of dialogue to suggest he MAY have been lying about some (or all) of it and then move on!
By retcon you mean correct the mess Chibbers has made, right?
My guess is that the timeless child (SEASON9: the ‘hybrid,’ a half time lord half dalek demigod) is Clara, she had came back again and again and comes back as a new person... but now she’s out of the picture..
lenro i’m glad you mentioned Clara. Because she makes this entire season finale impossible. Remember she jumped into The Doctors time stream. She was literally in every moment of his existence. She wasn’t in any of these moments. Because they’re not the doctors experiences. If that person existed it wasn’t The Doctor.
I maintain that when Russell T. Davies brought back Doctor Who he wrote that first season in a way that if all the changes that he was bringing to the show ( removing the Timelords, destroying Galifrey, Doctor last of his kind) did not resonate with the old fandom he could have just announced that New Who was separate from Classic Who. The new series could have remained on TV filling in its past as it continued while Classic would go on mostly via Big Finish in a distinct alternative universe.
Luckily RTD did such a good job most of fandom totally accepted Christopher Eccleston as a Doctor in the line of Doctors that began with William Hartnell. RTD cemented continually of the new Doctors during David Tennant's run with little references here and there culminating with the return of Sarah Jane .
Just my observation on how a real pro author like RTD handled canon change compared to the ham fisted way Chibnall failed with.
I think it was 2-3 series before it even really acknowledged that it was a continuation of the old series.
Even when following on from a long established setting, a GOOD writer will add to it moving forward, while leaving its past entirely intact and unaltered. An arrogant hack will take a machete to its past, retcon away much of the things that made the setting what it was, and thus alienate much of the audience that used to like it, and then blame the audience for not having the imagination to love their new version instead.
Doctor who just destroyed its own past, much like the Star Wars and Star Trek franchises did with theirs. These idiots will keep doing the same thing over and over, and expect a different and better result each time.
I feel like missy (the master) should have been the timeless child that’s why when he looked into the eye he went insane because that where he/she came from and when she finds out that’s when she starts her path of healing with Peter cappaldi
Personally: the "Timeless Child" back-story makes far more sense to be that of the Master, at it would give some sort of reason *why* he hates the Timelords and seems hell-bent on killing/destroying them.
Making it the Doctor just seems to over-egging her character pie, there's no reason to make her *the most important character in the entire history of Gallifrey* and basically discard the "just a madman in box" character which has been pretty-much adhered to for almost all of Doctor Who.
The Timelord Council not knowing that the Doctor had infinite regerations makes sense, because the knowledge was erased from the Matrix and all other records destroyed by The Division (who I *think* are meant to be Chibnal's version of the Celestial Intervention Agency ).
The Master hates the timelords because they took away his ability to regenerate. But then again that's old connon
Tbh, itd have been better if the Master was the Timeless Child or they both were. The idea can be salvaged depending on how they go with it
I was hoping it was the master, would've been very satisfying and made whatever anger he felt somewhat justified,
While I like the idea of it being the Master more than I like it being the Doctor, I prefer the Master hating the Time Lords because of them torturing him as a beacon to return. The never ending sound of drums
Imagine if it was the master and the doctor was Tecteun explaining why the doctor and the master always hung out and the master's hate for the timelords. It would also explain why the master had a subliminal hatred for the 10th doctor despite being childhood friends as the hatred and trama felt was still there despite the pleasant memories in his mind
OK... retcon time lol:
The Doctor isn't the Timeless Child, the Master just thinks he/she is because that's what the Matrix implied when he hacked into it. Everything else is true, as in the Child was helpless and unique, Tecteun (later Rassilon, also an immortal Time Lord founder) stole the power via torture in the name of "science" and created the Time Lords. All Time Lords share a memory of the Timeless Child due to this.
"Ruth" is the Timeless Child, posing as the Doctor, probably doing so convincingly because her and all Time Lords share memories, and is currently on a mission of her own, presumably trying to undo the Masters mess via his misunderstanding.
I'd certainly enjoy that more I feel... copyright it!
@IVAN KRAWEC Look guys, and an Old Who fanboy. Let's take some popcorns and look how he praises again and again Tom Baker's doctor
@IVAN KRAWEC Then go back watch that whole series over and over again. Leave NuWho fans alone.
It's like attack on Titan
See, that works. It's not hard to do better than these fools.
The Timeless Child is the Star Wars Holiday Special of Doctor Who: They're both allegedly terrible, and I've never seen either one of them.
...Allegedly... Y-yeah... We'll go with that. If nothing else, the Holiday Special is... 400% terribad.
Well at least for the Holiday Special the head of it George Lucas is ashamed of it and immediately knew that he needed to make people forget it as soon as possible, he completed failed obviously, but at least he knew it sucked. So far that's not the case for The Timeless Child.
lmfao
Instead of the Master the Timeless Child should have been an independent character and the antagonist of the story. A forgotten primordial prisoner that escape and wanted revenge on all Time Lords.
It could also have potential to have several ancient prisoners and new villains in the series that escaped.
That would be amazing! Kind of like Omega, angry at Time Lord society and working over millennia for revenge. Plus, the escaped prisoner thing for other villains in really cool, helping create an overarching plot for a whole season!
I have a better timeless child story: everything else is the same, timeless child has regeneration and people on gallifrey used that regeneration power for themselves, however there was one person who felt true sorrow for the child, the doctor, one night he (as the first doctor) frees the timeless child who’s now regenerated into the doctors granddaughter, afterwards they borrow one of the TARDIS’ and travel to earth and over time they leave their granddaughter on earth to hopefully live out a mostly normal life. Fixed, it references the doctors granddaughter from the beginning, we can still feel fear for the doctor because they now can die and everything else stays the same... you can come up with other (better) ways the story could have gone go ahead, even saying the master is the timeless child is a better ending than the actual ending
Timeless Child is a Good Concept, the only Botching point IS that it is the Doctor. I would've loved it if the Timeless child Ran away, they didnt know WHERE they were, that sets up another season (Tracking the Timeless Child) and would add CONFLICT to Jodie Regenerating. "SHOULD I use this stolen Regeneration ability..." only to lead to the Timeless child WANTING the Doctor to Regenerate because the Doctor wasnt the one to steal the Ability, but the Doctor was the one that DESERVES the ability
@@lucasparadox6823 That could actually be amazing! Well, I say COULD, depends who the showrunner is. If it's still Chibnall, I'll pass (seriously, can we just have Moffat or RTD back?)
Heck that works perfectly, it could also explain the Hand of Omega being used as the Doctor could've used it to free the Child all those aeons ago and hid it away from the Time Lords to prevent them uing it.
Ok I really like this omg
@@MotRekrab1347 boy do i have some good news for you 😂
Reminds me of what Tennants doctor said in his last episodes
"Even if I change it feels like dying. Everything I am changes and some new man goes sauntering away"
Every incarnation of the doctor is unique and supposed to feel different adding onto the point of "I can be like them" and the whole chosen one thing kind of ruins the feel of what makes a new incarnation of the doctor unique. Their character!
Ecclestons Character: Filled with rage with the time war and what he did yet still tries to do the right thing and learns to love and let go of his rage
Tennants Character: Filled with regret, truly a lonely character as we see with the amount of companions he has that he ends up losing all the same, never to see him again. Rose, getting stuck in another universe, Martha realising she just wants to live her life and become a medical practitioner says goodbye to him and Donna ends up forgetting he ever existed causing him to die alone
Smiths Character: Filled with grief, yet puts on the facade of the happy-go-lucky doctor who saves the world summarised in the first lines he speaks in his first episode, "I'm the Doctor, basically, run"
Capaldi's Character: The one who struggles with his own morality, constantly asking the question "Am I good man?" even to the point where he doesn't know if he was a good man for saving Ary-I mean Ashildr
Whittakers character: supposed to be the doctor who brings hope to the universe buuuuuuuuuuut we know how that turned out.
That's a pretty neat comparison.
I kind of see Whittaker's character as someone who thinks they know everything and that her way of thinking, even though she claims she changes opinions, is the right one. However, she never stops to think that her way is right. She's so used to hopping around with a crew that follows her word without question that she might as well be talking to no one and can no longer stay in one place long enough to be challenged that it's actually affecting her execution.
Agree with the top 4 but Whittakers character is pencilled in for SJW purposes,, there's no character development there, hence when I watch scenes from her first episode it feels the same in her latest episode which is wooden, emotionless and just plain obnoxious. Whereas you can see the 9th, 10th and 11th Drs grow, 10 becomes more lonely and resentful, starts to become insane with it before snapping out of it to save an old mans life,, 9 accepts himself again and learns to like himself, 11 ends up feeling vindicated and drops the act.. 12 is more like Whittaker sadly, there's no real character development there at all, he goes round and round and round. and Obnoxious would be fine if you have the charisma to pull it off and whittaker has none. Chibnall writing for her just about sums the whole charade up.
Agreed
Finally someone mentions how the timeless child plotline completely defeats the entire purpose of River Song giving up her regenerations! When I finished the season that was the first thing that popped into my head, about a month or two later I'm still irritated by this massive oversight. The sacrifice and death of one of the greatest characters in the show, completely meaningless.
Doesn't it also defy her birth too? She was a timelord with regenerations because she was conceived and exposed to the time vortex. Also, during that whole story line, it was implied that's how the entire species of timelords came into being was through the constant exposure to the time vortex. Having all the timelords be created by stealing parts of the timeless child literally ignores that River Song even excited.
Neither of the characters KNEW what the Doctor is. It in no way diminishes River's sacrifice.
I’ve been running under the assumption that since the Time Lords figured out how to give regeneration to others and place limits on it, they limited the Doctor’s after the mind wipe. After all there wouldn’t be much point to a mind wipe and hiding the truth if it’s just going to be revealed when the Doctor regenerates for the thirteenth time, so perhaps in the Time of the Doctor all they did is remove the limit.
the master being the timeless child would be more interesting because he would of just have gotten more impossible to beat!
@@Shikatema4ever River was unique. Not only was she conceived in the Time Vortex, she was conceived in a TARDIS. That is Time Lord tech that the Doctor has used to stabilize his regenerations in the past. So there is evidence in Cannon that technology has something to do with regeneration.
Chibnall really is so talented, because his decisions are just one alteration from actually being compelling, but in every episode it is like he takes the one element that would challenge the doctor, and removes it, to create the most plain and boring plots possible. It is the kind of incompetence that feels deliberate.
The fact that the Doctor is the single most important person in all of Gallifrey history, I don’t really like this because she’s like *d e s t i n e d* to be the greatest rather than earn it throughout the show
I didn't like it when moffat made the doctor the focus of the universe so many times but this as a whole other level. I preferred it when the doctor was just a traveller who helps wherever they go
@@liammatthews2183 but when moffat did it it at least made sense. I didnt like it eithwr but it worked. The doctor had defeated his enemies so much they felt compelled to try to defeat him together in the pandorica opens. It made sense! this doesnt
@@DbladeMedic exactly. I find the timeless child arc comes off as fanfic just so Chris chibnall could stamp his name on doctor who lore
@@liammatthews2183 yea! It _IS_ A FANFIC! Thats a perfect way to describe it. It brings to mind when chibnass was on the show talking about doctor who in the 80s and he said Doctor Who was going downhill and he would do so much better at it. All i can think when he said that was "you right fanfiction dont you?" well i got my answer
@@liammatthews2183 also if the doctor isnt a timelord and an extradimensional being why does he/she have time lord biology. Has two hearts and everything. So did the timelords take this away from him/her also?
"They became a legend through who they were, not where they came from." Looking at you Rey Palpatine.
If they kept the twist in TLJ she would've just been a nobody
Rey nobody or rey palpatine are the correct answers
@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 hmm no family
rey solo
@@waltuh2.3bviews3secondsago3 I mean they gave her permission
My main issue with the Timeless Child is that it is an extension of a problem many have had with modern era Who in the past of the Doctor being too big. I tolerate it in most cases and justify it as him becoming that way due to the Time War and there are even times where I think it is good (eg: everyone at the Pandorica being established as having fought him at some point or when 10 basically tells the vashta nerada to look him up in the galaxy's biggest library in Forest of the Dead). However, even then it got away from the way the character was portrayed in Classic Who and therefore they couldn't rely purely on reputation and weren't usually the most important person in the universe (apart from cases such as being declared Lord President of Galifray at the end of the 5 Doctors and even then he ran off) which was even hinted at as being a way the show was going with 11 in series 7 where he deleted information of himself from most galactic data bases but now they're apparently the entire reason Galifray exists as it does? One of my favourite lines from Capaldi's run as the Doctor is from Death in Heaven: "I am an idiot... with a box and a screwdriver. Passing through, helping out, learning." which I think sums up what the Doctor is most of the time and how they should be and in the same scene that Doctor says that "I am not a good man".
Yeah, it's at least more acceptable when he becomes important through his actions as an adult but when you make him important ever since he was a child, that's just lame.
Exactly. I liked that the Doctor was just a random Time Lord that just so happened to make enough noise to be the most important being in the universe. The whole Timeless Child gambit really raises a bunch more questions than it answered, and is far too convienient for my taste.
It's actually pretty indicative with modern story telling. It's all about destiny and being special, not becoming who you truly are or bettering yourself.
@@Eyecyou64 Wow, nailed it. People are being taught that they're "perfect the way they are!". You don't need to change, learn, or better yourself in any way, you've earned everything you ever want just by existing. And if anyone denies you then they're wrong and mean.
This perfectly plays into that.
Moffat was majorly guilty of aggrandising the Doctor. I don't think this revelation actually does that though, because (a) it doesn't give the Doctor any more power or authority and (b) it's actually kind of separate to the Doctor. The Doctor isn't responsible for the Time Lords - a biological sample taken from her is. She's essentially Henrietta Lacks, and I think that's okay. This hasn't changed who she is as a person.
I always thought an interesting idea would be if The Doctor’s regenerations got more volatile with time. Right now, they can fuck up the Tardis. What if, in a couple more, they could destroy a moon? Perhaps The Doctor themselves isn’t worried about their death, but is instead worried for how much damage their death may cause.
Best version would be if Susan was the timeless child, and the Doctor had stolen the TARDIS, and HER! Stole her from the cruelty of the timelords. Susan does not remember it. But she will. Centuries later. And Jodie's Doctor meets her then.
Idk if that would make sense, the Doctor steals Susan from cruelty of the Time Lords she endured for who knows how long, and then just casually leaves her on a destroyed Earth with some random dude
Oh my god THIS WORKS SO WELL!!! aggghhhh
@@eeli-iivaritampio5776 Maybe that was the point. It was a random point in time on a backwater world. Like hiding the holy grail in a skip in Croydon. The Doctor knew the Time Lords would catch up eventually so he had to drop the hot potato.
Okay, I have an idea of how this could be fixed.
So, we never learn how the Master found out it was the Doctor SPECIFICALLY who was the Timeless Child. He only says so and the Doctor just takes his word for it. So, how about the Doctor meets an older Timelord somewhere down the line and she tells them about this revelation - only for them to reveal that the Timeless Child is dead. They died long along, as an act of rebellion against the Timelord, by throwing themselves into the genetic splicing machine that the Timelords created to give themselves the ability to regenerate (call them the Looms or whatever).
The Doctor, therefore, cannot be the Timeless Child, but why then does the Master find these memories of Brendon in the Matrix? Who is Ruth? Who are the Morbius Doctors?
Well, I propose that they reveal that Brendon is actually the Master after the Division recruits him under the presumption that he is the Timeless Child reborn in a new body. They use him and abuse him to point of using up most of his regenerations before they realise that he wasn't what they were looking for. The Master then escapes after his latest mind wipe and goes on to be the James Dreyfus Master as seen in Big Finish.
The Doctor is just an ordinary Timelord who knew the Master before he was recruited, his best friend. So whilst the Master is out in the universe burning through his regenerations in dangerous missions for the Division, the Doctor lives comfortably on Gallifrey, eventually going off into the universe.
What about Ruth? Where does she fit in? Well, I would establish that Ruth is a FUTURE incarnation of the Doctor, someone who doesn't remember 13 for some reason. Why? Well, that could be the dominant question going forward in the series. A premonition of something terrible that's about to happen which causes the Ruth Doctor to not only go into hiding but either be forced to forget or choose to forget her time as 13. The reason she went into hiding? The Timelords hunting her down and trying to recruit her back into the Division to help build New Gallifrey. But that would be something for the future.
What about the Morbius Doctors then? How do they fit in? Well, I don't know. I want to keep it vague. But personally, if it has to be addressed, I'd go with the Season 6B fan theory - which states that there was another incarnation of the Doctor in between 2 and 3 that did a bunch of dirty work for the Timelords - except instead of one incarnation, it's several, all serving the Division as penance for his interference of the lower worlds. The extra lives used? Restored by the Timelords after the Doctor's sentence is complete, reinstated along with a memory wipe, just like Brendon. It would be fun I think to then have the Morbius Doctor come back in some fashion, maybe as antagonists of the Doctor, or maybe the Doctor has to deal with the fallout of their missions for the Timelords.
Love all of this; especially the tie-in with the Cartmell masterplan/ The Other
This is a pretty good idea but it does require a lot of surgery on the multiple doctor thing. I love the idea of The timelords thinking a Brendan Master is the timeless child. Not too sure about fitting the brain of morbius doctors inbetween Patrick and Jon but some good can come out of it.
Can we get u in the writing team for next season?
Not bad, we already ignored completely that nonsense of the Doctor being half-human and the Morbius faces; it's as FFV puts it: is not like continuity is not a wibbly wobbly ball of stuff already
Eddie Curtis Don’t like it. It’s too convoluted because Chib has just created something that really doesn’t work. I think you put more thought into that than he did.
The Timeless Child should have definitely been the Master, as it would make him even angrier and give him an even more psychotic persona. And it could play into what we learn in The End of Time, where the Time Lords place a message into his head.
Did u watch the end of time?
@@charliemacdonald9879 Yeah, Why?
The concept of staring into the time vortex as a kid could be twisted in the way of it was another way of torture to draw out his regeneration powers. Then other time lords like the doctor either had to look into it to get the regeneration powers or were simply lied to to clarify how they got the powers, when in theory it’s a lie cus the powers were stolen.
The idea of the Master being compassionate towards the Timeless Child could have multiple avenues that tie back into & further the arc Missy went on in series 10.
There are SO many possibilities, it feels like Chibnall chose the worst road to travel
Never thought I'd say that, but damn I miss Steven Moffat...
Moffat actually gave a damn and clearly cared for DW and its history, Chibnall is more focused on leaving his mark then writing good stories.
With Moffat you'd get a 10/10 one week and a 3/10 the next.
With Chibnall you get a 6/10 every single week.
Andy Benji except that the season finale is 1/10 because the doctor cowardly running away and letting someone else suicide-murder the Master is just shit writing.
@@battlep0t With Chibnall you get a 6/10 some weeks then 2/10 for the rest
moffat wrote some of the best Doctor who episodes and created some of the scariest monsters
this is just garbage
Calling it right now: The Master lied. He said The Doctor was the Timeless Child just to goad her into believing she is some kind of chosen one, some kind of god destined to save the universe. The Doctor is susceptible to this because of their flaw: hubris. Actually The Master is the Timeless Child. That's why he burned Gallifrey. "The Master" of what? of Time, naturally. But the Master has always existed to show the audience the potential sinister side of the Doctor. The Master has taken advantage of the Doctor's savior complex before: in that scene where the Master refuses to regenerate while the Doctor is watching. What he's doing there is taunting the Doctor, by saying "haha, I refuse to let you to save me".
It would make the Master a far more believable and compelling character, if their evil was the result of something done to them. As it is right now, The Master was seemingly born as a sociopath. But sociopaths need not be born, they can be created. Abuse by a parental figure can leave a child unable to form healthy relationships, perpetually in pain and powerless to resolve their problems on their own. All too often, abused children become abusers. Like, The Master. This would also have made the Missy arc more sensible. If the Master was a born psychopath, then there would be no real possibility of their redemption. If they cannot empathize with people then they will never do things "because they are right". The best that could happen is that they learn about how interdependent the world is, and how hurting others hurts themself. But if the Master is a tortured and abused child, if they are capable of empathy: but that capability has gone unused because they were taught early on that empathy is a weakness. Now that is a character who could be truly redeemed. Having at least the possibility of redemption for the Master raises the stakes, and makes the character far more compelling. If there is truly a possibility of redeeming the Master, then everything is potentially important.
YESSSSS
Yes! right now the master's evil comes from doing the exact same thing the other kids on the academy of gallifrey did, loooking into the time vortex. It makes no sense as to why the master would go insane from it but not the doctor, they're quite similar, exept for the i like murdering/i hate murdering part
@DANK Oh really? then why are you here on this video?
If you truly believed the show was dead, you wouldn't be watching videos about it. You don't think the show is dead, you WANT the show to die because you're angry at it. Which you have every right to be.
I thought it was also established that the Master went crazy in part due to the Timelords giving him a shit ton of regenerations and forcing him to fight in the time war, like the drums that he heard were the drums of war echoing in his mind. It's been awhile since I've watched 10s seasons so I could be wrong, and I'm not disagreeing with, just trying to remember!
Ah yes, an excuse to try saving a dying franchise.
I love how they've just obliterated all the emotional weight Eccleston, and Tennant Doctors had in their respective seasons. It's gone. All of it.
Andie Anderssen I haven’t seen series 11 and 12, and in my mind they aren’t canon because god they’re shit
@@canadiangopnik7007 How do you know they're shit it you haven't seen them?
Watch the episodes again. It's still there. I think people are going wrong by imagining this to be more than a twist that'll be written out sometime into the future.
@@paulpeartsmith I stopped paying attention when Smith became The Doctor. If someone likes the series from 11 onwards, go for it. Like what you want to like, it's just not for me anymore. There was incredibly strong writing and character development done during the run of the 9th and 10th Doctor's, but all the good writers moved on to other projects once Tennan decided to leave. I think there was also some internal conflicts with the BBC at the time anyway with the changes they wanted to see, but I don't know enough to comment on that aspect.
Lucifer clips my boy, clips
Also find it hilarious that the Doctor's entire arc from this earthshaking revelation is.... That she's the exact same person that she was before and that nothing has changed.
Good on you, Chibnail. You fundamentally changed the very nature of the Doctor without changing a god damned thing about their personality or their character, nullifying the only interesting thing that could've come out of this retcon. We can only hope that this change is retconned in the same manner that you evoked it.
Timeless Child: *exists*
Everyone: "I'll Ignore that"
Jesus Christ, the Messiah: exists
Judaism: "We'll just ignore that"
@@DriesduPreez XD basically
there is no timeless child in ba sing se.
inass el k. Why tf can u just not accept that the story has been writen that way. Your telling me that the directors are wrong. Just get a life
Joshy Woshy “i recognise that the council has made a decision. but given that it’s a stupid-ass decision, i’ve elected to ignore it.”
if regeneration is just a power of the Doctor, how did River get the ability?
....
.......and this is why you're adopted
HAHHAHAHAH lol
Only one thing makes sense. Amy had an affair with the Doctor and then the Doctor married River. Lots of planets have an Alabama after all.
@@flynncarter229 Its called a joke. And considering that Chibnall changed the origins of regeneration the original explanation no longer makes sense.
"I'm The Doctor."
"Doctor Who?"
"Doctor Skywalker!"
*Shows yellow sonic to the audience*
@@maniacmadness115 I thought of the same thing, Lel. Cringe af.
Damnit disney ... you had to screw it up . the last two , fine ... you shot your foot at the freaking last movie ! What the hell !
Wouldn’t it make way more sense if The Master was the Timeless Child? Him burning Galifry would be a completely understandable reaction, and why Missy had a decent redemption just to turn into the Evil Master again
Add the original doctor was the one who tortured him so she can try to make aments at least
@@santiagomenchaca4248no, that's a bad idea. Just make the doctor the kindest time lord or whatever, she doesn't have to be relevant other than their being old friends
i like the idea of the timeless child being a separate person that the time lords tortured, especially because it would have paralleled the way the time lords put the drumbeat in the master's head as a child. could he have destroyed gallifrey in revenge for what they did to him AND this child?
the master should’ve been the timeless child
That would had made way more sense! I think this “twist” ruins the Doctor as a character.
They'll probably retcon it this way
The Master lies
That's what I thought too, it would give him more reason to destroy galafray as they tortured the timeless child
The problem is that did that with the sound of the drums in his head.
Makes sense: The Master.... More like the Master Copy 😂
4:35 it isn't fair to show a Capaldi clip in a S12 video. It makes you even more aware of the stale state of this era.
hahaha
@@LukasOfTheLight Problem was that he had no sense of continuity.
@@LukasOfTheLight He worshiped the Doctor too much for my liking (also I had issues with the way he wrote women)
@@MakiPcr Could you give more of an explanation on that?
@@MirrenTheDragonKnight I mean stuff like how the word "doctor" means healer because of the Doctor and stuff like that. I don't like that thing where the Doctor is the center of the universe (which is my problem with the Timeless Child), I prefer them to be just a looser who got fed up with their society and fucked off with a half broken ride
So forget about Rassalon being one of the founders of timelord society and alone knew the secret to perpetual regeneration
Series 11: I'm just a traveler
Me: Well at least they're not making her space Jesus like previous new who
Series 12: YoU'Re tHe TimElEsS CHIld!
Me: Oh
Previous new who never made the doctor "space jesus"
@@warblenoise Remember that episode the Doctor saved the world with prayer? followed by the one where he gets lifted into the air by angels?
@@Ben-vf5gk
Remember all those other episodes where the doctor is helpless, pushing forwards with will alone just out of the kindness of their heart? A single episode with symbology means jack shit.
The symbolism there shows us of his good will, which is pretty much the main personality trait of the doctor
@@warblenoise Or those long series arcs where everyone is out to get the Doctor because he's the most important person in the universe ever, or the times the Doctor has sent people running away their reputation, or they're actually responsible for the word Doctor on some planets. This has been a running trend in most of new who
agreed, the concept is cheap. The "Doctor who?" question is way better and the fact that only River knows makes it even more speical.
Everyone remembers the mystery, nobody remembers the explanation.
I think Clara and the Master also know.
No, River was a major nuisance.
@@reasonablyserious was surprised at the stupidity of your comment, then read the username
@@nmitchxll305 Political views aside, River Song was a fucking terrible character.
As River Song was often to say "first rule: The doctor lies". Do you think it would be any different for the master?
Additionally, in The Trial of a Time Lord, the whole Trial aspect was based on the fact that the Matrix could not be artificially altered..only for The Master, toward the end, to come in front of everyone, mockingly, showing them that he in fact did exactly that: artificially altered it. So not only is The Master someone more than capable of lying, but is the one character shown to be able to forge untruths within the Matrix itself.
If anything, it would be true of the Master *moreso*!
As true as that is, any attempt to move away from the big Timeless Child reveal would require good writing, otherwise it would look like a rushed back-pedal from a mistake. Any poorly conceived response along the lines of "we were just kidding" could sink the show. Then again, any badly executed follow-on will damage the show's chances too. Dare I suggest this path by Chibnall was written to appeal mainly to an American audience, for whom superheroes and easy answers are winners?
@@shebbs1 I think that's possible - that they were thinking of the huge numbers they could get if they just compromised a bit (okay, a lot) on quality. I just hope they pay attention to the response from their *actual* audience in putting together the followup episode (the new year special, IIRC), rather than dreaming of a huge but dumbed-down potential audience. It's still going to be a glaring backpedal even if it's done well, but maybe, just maybe....
(FWIW, not all Americans are like that. As the 8th Doctor protested when forced to admit that he was indeed a Time Lord, "I'm one of the good ones!")
Owain Shebbeare, Actually (and you can correct me on this one my facts might be wrong), I think The Timeless Child was a theory of Chibnalls when he was a kid
It would've made more sense with the Master as the Timeless Child and the Doctor as Tecteun. At some point, both their memories were wiped, but the underlying emotional dynamic between still somewhat intact, explaining both the Master's rage and his sense of attachment to the Doctor. RTD could still do this perhaps, making the initial reveal another one of the Master's head games. It wouldn't fill every plot hole, but it would go a ways towards fixing the mess that Chibnall created with this story arc.
I love how everyone in the comments section immediately and effortlessly grasps how much better the timeless child would have worked had it been the Master, not the Doctor. It gives the Master a compelling justification for their rage against the Time Lords, their resentment of the Doctor (as the Doctor this way would have benefitted from the Master's stolen abilities, and the Master's continued survival despite burning through so many regenerations. I'm also interested by the possibility of the Doctor actually being Tecteun all along.
Having the Doctor be Tecteun would also, I suppose, give an anticlimactic but still logical resolution to the mystery that defined Matt Smith's arc; the question of the Doctor's real name. If the Doctor did all those things as Tecteun, you can see a scenario where Tecteun has a crisis of conscience, renounces that name and takes the name of the Doctor as they go out into the universe to atone for their actions by helping people. Thus, the Doctor's true name would become an urgently guarded secret because they don't want anyone uncovering what they did in their early life. Plus, they can't risk someone using that discovery to track down Tecteun's work and potentially replicate it for their own use.
Alternatively, Tecteun semi-botches her first regeneration when she first tries the ability she stole from the timeless child/the Master. She accidentally regenerates into a child herself, both Tecteun and the timeless child get their minds wiped, and they grow up together as the Doctor and the Master that we know and love. They're raised as 'normal' Gallifreyans, believing the fake origin stories spread by the Time Lords, and the Doctor's 'true' name is just whatever they thought it was during this time.
There, Chris Chibnall. Two better ideas.
No. The doctor should not be involved
@@brandonmroe265i think the master being it would also be Well bad beccause it would for me Ruin the character but i coukd be in the wrong it would definetly destroy my idea of him
Timeless child reeks of insecurity and desperation. It was created by a person who very clearly knows that he is quite possibly the worst showrunner in the history of this multiple decades long franchise and he wanted to do something to cement his name in as something more. To make himself stand out by doing something "stunning and brave".
Problem is, he is still as shit as he was, so we got what we got.
At this point I just want to put the show out of its misery, Chibnall has done damage that will constantly ruin an amazing show. His only legacy is going to be that he was the worst show runner.
It's the same thing with Rian Johnson's treatment of Star Wars or a great many modern Marvel comics writers. Narcissists selfishly putting their stink on timeless properties. Refusing to acknowledge they are stewards and not creators. And it's the fans who have to suffer.
i still love the timeless child
Happy DayZ Your stubborn denial of a clearly terrible story, displays your obsessive fandom of a dying show. Think about the next season...what’s next? How do we ever have stakes if the Doctor literally can’t die? Companion death? Worn the T-shirt mate. Why was the Doctor still a child that had to peer into the vortex like The Master? And if so...what does a timeless child see inside the vortex? Also...isn’t she now a parasite on the concept of life itself. The war doctor, the warrior...shouldn’t we want that dead? How did he steal a Tardis so easily if he is literally the life blood of the race? You don’t think the other Time Lords would have her rapunzel’d for life? Turned into a blood machine? Remember when he killed the rachnos queen? Do you like the idea of god dealing death by hand? When not one enemy could ever imagine to surpass him? The whole thing is a Damn veiled metaphor for how the Female Doctor is soooo special. What about Missy? So she wanted to help last time, and for lesser reasons than the disgusting stuff done to the Timeless child? If he can’t die...can’t get ill...why does he keep acting like it’s all over? Why have the crack in space save 11 when he didn’t need saving...could blame it on lack of knowledge...except the time lords are the only people that would have known? Why the rule of 13?? What was that fake news in galifrey!! You are outta your mind if you can enjoy it without feeling Chibnalls filthy fingers all over the legacy? Dumb dumb dumb. Mary Sue taken to the level of Christ...so crucify him/her/my lord and saviour...Doctor Jesus. Please think about it. Sucks to think you would be so shallow.
P.S the time war is basically genocide. Doctor Adolf. Chibnall has destroyed the character. If the Master were the timeless child the threat would be insurmountable....now the stakes are unmountable entirely. Yuck. Boooooo
'The Timeless Child is the single worst idea in Doctor Who history' already the truth has been spoken and it was only the first sentence. 'You may find this hyperbolic...' Au Contraire, my friend!
No, the single worst idea in Dr Who history is fans thinking they own the show and that their opinion is worth shit. But if you don't like it there is the obvious get out that the matrix has lied before and that the Master has lied before. Honestly, has any show had worsr fans than Doctor Who? Never happy unless you're whining. If the credit said Robert Holmes you'd all be ejaculating over yourselves in excitement.
dale watts mate... great idea. That idea counts for you as well.
Also. The entire idea is ridiculous and stupid. The ‘harmful fan base’ only rose this much this time because of the the series 11 & 12. Otherwise we just want great storylines. We disliked Matt at first. We want him back now. We disliked Peter now. We love him. Can you honestly say that 13th has brought anything unique? Without partially breaking it that is. No character development. No cohesion. Nothing.
Series 12 is great. At first. But the ending *is* rubbish.
Jeff Smith while the timeless child is bad. The choice to make the bbc tax payer funded was worse. With it the network can push out whatever they feel like even if it’s hot garbage. It’s why they won’t even feel the burn if people tune out from this horrible abomination that used to be a good show.
@@dalewatts1475 Consumers opinions are always valuable.
The hybrid would like a word
All these people saying how the Timeless Child should have been the Master. I agree. And maybe it could have worked with your point about how maybe the Doctor could have been the one who tortured the Timeless Child in the first place. Could be a good explanation for why they undid Missy’s Series 10 redemption arc. Because imagine. Missy survives and regenerates into Sacha Dhawan, still wanting to be like the Doctor. Goes back to Gallifrey. Discovers the truth. Burns down Gallifrey in anger and reignites his hatred for the Doctor. After all, why would he want to be anything like the Doctor after that?