For almost 2 years I was listening to my BlueSound node 2i connected directly to my amp using the node as a pre with its volume control but something was always missing and I could’t figure it out so checking out the internet people were blaming the nodes less than perfect DAC and recommending a linear power supply upgrade for the node, well I upgraded its power supply and only got marginal improvement of the sound but my issues remained which were mainly in low volume listening and constantly adjusting the volume as some passages were too loud and some low levels not loud enough. Almost giving up I dragged out my 20+ year old Rotel preamp just to see what happens and you guessed it at the first listen all my problems and issues were GONE ! Perfect level matching and full dynamics at any volume level. Do NOT listen to people that say the less in the signal path the better or DAC volume control is all you need, You will do yourself a disservice !
I have an Hattor passive/active preamp and it is best thing ever. Fabulous features, dual mono, with switchable 3/6/9 db available in active mode if and when needed. Super silent and amazing "ease and naturalness". Here people are selling their 20K $ active preamps and replacing them with the Hattor which cost 1500$. Hattor's does offer something forward thinking.
Like many, my system is optimized around a digital source. It has a triode output amp/buffer so quite capable of driving the amp. This affords the use of high quality autoformers to perform attenuation. They are literally a wire with extremely clean signal response. Any form of resistor degraded the sound. LDRs (light diode resistors ) came close but the autoformer was a clear win. I also find that digital attenuation works fine. I struggle to hear any issues with dynamics but leave the autoformers in the chain as they do no harm.
I suppose it depends on the volume attenuator in the source component (if it has one). I opted to skip the preamp because of limited space, so I selected a DAC with a good volume attenuator among other criteria. I suppose a preamp would be ideal but I'm satisfied!
With a source player like an Oppo 205 that has both variable volume control & very uniquely HDMI input, you can very much get away without a preamp because you can connect it directly to an amplifier. However, just as Paul stated, I have two preamps that sound better going through them vs direct to amp. Of course they are both no slouch--being the highly coveted 100% analog Conrad-Johnson tube MET1 and Audio Research SS MP1 analog multi-channel beasts. Back in the day I had no idea how much a preamp affects the sound... but it most certainly does!
I ran my dac straight to my amp for a while. Though it was a very clean sound, it seemed to be very clinical. I added a preamp and it kind of softened the edges a bit, made it more enjoyable and less fatiguing. It has a tube stage that really sweetens it up, especially on lower quality older recordings.
The preamp is something many manufacturers overlook. The ones found in most receivers and DAC combos are just plain out terrible. Even if the pot is good. The internal preamp is a weak link. If you are lucky some DAC combos allow you to turn off the variable output to fixed. Allowing you to connect to an external preamp. I will keep saying it. That separates are the best way to go. Regardless you choose to go with tubes and vinyl or digital and solid state. You can't beat a quality preamp in the middle of things.
You need to have the right cable for turntable ideally 43 ohms 19pF/1000ft from the turntable to the phono stage, Keep it short as possible. And from the phono stage to the amplifier can use the same cable or something like a 47 ohm but keep it under 50 ohms But make sure it's long 5 m+ you'll get great dynamics and good bass response. The lower ohms cable makes the cartridge more sensitive.
The attenuation section of a quality pre-amp will be better than the built-in attenuator in your CD player. The focus of a quality CD player (where the research and $$ are used) is in its transport section and its DAC section (not in its attenuation section, because that is the job of a pre-amp). When you purchase a quality pre-amp, that box's attenuation section is the focus of the research and $$ spent in engineering and building that box. It is like comparing a DAC that is built in to a smart-phone with a stand-alone DAC that is an entirely separately box with its own power supply. Of course that stand-alone DAC should sound better than the one built-in to a smart phone. As you get into better and better audio equipment, you get more and more separate components. There are pre-amps with two power supplies (one for each channel), and pre-amps with a separate chassis that houses the pre-amp's power supply. There are some very good components in receivers and other combo type audio components. But in general, the sound quality will improve as you specialize each and every component of a stereo, and that is why a using a quality pre-amp should sound better than feeding your DAC directly to your amps. The DAC's attenuation section will not be a good as a quality stand-alone attenuator that you find in a quality pre-amp, because that is the job of the pre-amp.
thanks Paul yes always thought that having a good preamp made all the difference .ps would a good preamp tube preamp attached to solid state power amps .give it a more analogue sound .many thanks for all the videos over the years
Solid state preamps are just as analog as tubes. I would say focus on getting the right preamp for your system. It may be tube or solid state. However, I will say this. Getting the wrong preamp can wreck the sound of your system as easily as a bad speaker or power amp upgrade.
"Our preamps are so good, that they are better than the source signal they are being fed" -psAudio I'm still till this day running a completely passive phonostage both with passive SUT gain and Blue Alps Velvet potentiometer directly feeding a poweramp. No preamp for me thanks, just a real discrete passive solution, a variable resistor for controlling the volume - can't be beat. Seemingly you were on the right track in your early career Paul, but then you sacrificed fidelity for 'ease of use' i don't do compromises with fidelity, - though I'm sure your cost-no-object pre-amps outperforms other similar solutions.
A MiniDSP as preamp that: * That correct your room * That fix a better quality x-over than ANY speaker has today in it's cabinet * That take your TT and fix if you need a rumble filter * That fix time alignment between drivers * That fix homo sapiens hearing sensitivity in different frequencies (yes we are not those snowflakes that we think we are.) 🤣 * That fix your subjective preferences and give you presets for different mods, listening volumes and music types. * And the list goes on and on and it is only your imagination that that is the limit. That actively realizes magic ✨ is indeed unbeatable! That makes every traditional solid state or tube pre-amplifier to pail in comparison regardless of its price. When they can't just for starters do anything for your listening room.. And if that were not enough the MiniDSP can simulate any pre-amplifier if we know it's frequency response (but that doesn't actually matter and is uninteresting when you make it sound as you subjectively like instead.) The time you will invest in learning and adjusting how all that works is less than keeping moving in and out different pre-amplifiers in your same room and hoping for "perfection". But realizing that you only get a slightly different sound. It's the definition of madness to do that whole your life and expecting a different result 😅🎼
@@randomtube8226 besides the speaker, the pre section is the next biggest thing used to colour the sound. For example, do you remember the Hall/Arena/Stadium/Church Modes found on AVRs of yesteryears? Thats all done in the pre section.
@@AmazonasBiotopminiDSP is a company in Hong Kong. I once visited this company (R&D center). Yes, they make awesome DSP products at an affordable price. I have the Flex Eight 8 channel outputs box that I use for some active cross-over setup with 6 mono blocks and subwoofer all optimized to precision. Rip out your old passive cross-over filters and go active. It’s not too hard and fun to get the performance to the next level. I also have their calibrated microphone that works very well for room measurements and calibration.
I’ve been thinking of buying a power amp and driving it with my Hugo 2, basically a dac with a variable output (even a remote). I’ve seen some call this a digital preamp.
using a dsp unit as "preamp" would work great for those of use with digital only sources, pc source to a minidsp shd or flex, shd has streamer also and can be source. then from that into dac and then into power amps.
As usual, excellent video Paul. I also watched Bascom's video on why a pre-amp makes it sound better, (although that is only the case with high-end pre-amp, not cheaper ones which make it worse). Was surprised to hear you're developing a new Pre-amp. How are you going to top Bascom's creation?
It depends on your budget. If you are someone that kind of likes audio and a 1k to 2k budget then the systems of the past like at Circuit city with the all in one receivers and some Cerwin Vega's or similar gets the job done. For those budgets it's GOOD ENOUGH either in they like the sound enough not to spend more or they would spend more but the budget currently doesn't allow it. You get into ultra hi-fi systems and separates makes sense as one component only doing one thing with premium parts laid out the most optimum way without space constraints tends to give a better sound ( given that room treatments and everything else is equal ).
A preamplifier is much less needed today and adds extra signal processing that technically isn't helping the signal's integrity. For those of us who have completely switched to online audiophile streaming or DSD playback, the traditional input switching is replaced with digital source switching before the DAC. Ages ago I enjoyed using a preamplifier because I had a record player, CD player, tuner and cassette player. Recently I got a pair of LS60 and I'm very sure it doesn't suffer from lack of a preamp. PS Audio should consider making an active speaker of the FR series or perhaps a separate speaker series rather than promote old-style audio topologies.
The issue becomes level setting. How do you adjust the volume? If you go straight from some high level source like a DAC or CD player it is going to send out it's full rated output voltage. Which might be either too much or not enough voltage to drive the amps. Likely too much! Without reducing the level you will over drive the amps. And even if by chance a perfect match, what about when you want less than full volume? Your digital source's 16,24,... bits are spread across it's max output voltage. If you had a perfect voltage match of the digital source driving the amp to full power without clipping, but wanted to listen at half volume, you have to throw half the bits of resolution away. Want a nice background 1/4 level? 4 bits left from the 16? Where by using even a passive analog volume control no mater how much you change the total voltage, the resolution of the signal does not change. The full original 16, 24, ... bit resolution is just applied across a .5V or .25V peak instead of 1V or 2V.
When a pre-amp is improving the sound, there is something wrong. It can be something quite simple, like the impedance of the power-amp is not ideal for the source. But if the PS DAC sounds better on their power amp, the pre-amp is not the device adding to the sound, as that is impossible. A matching between those devices is a better alternative. But a pre-amp is a good way for extra profit, anyways. I just use a great sounding pot between an amaizing DAC and the power amp and they are well together. Adding a pre-amp, even the by Paul praised PS product, and even better ones, will cause degradation.
As long as you either have limited sources or sensitivity controls on your amp, sure. The Lumin streamers have excellent attenuation and even the Bluesound’s volume can be controlled, as well as most software. You do run the risk of losing quality of the signal with inexpensive/poorly designed units/software.
My home made pre running on 6922's are vastly superior than simply switching and attenuation. the 6922 perform so much better than 12ax7's even after voltage adjustment. Next mission is to build a headphone amp with some 6922's. My cans has an impedance of 600ohms. Should be child's play for these valves.
In this modern era, if all your audio is digital, through a decent DAC that has a volume control, well that's it, no need for a pre-amp by many. My brother scored a lovely Luxman preamp, the previous owner was feeding his digital source straight into the power amps, so the pre was pointless to him.
I see you've asked this question more than once. Technically, you are correct. However, the industry has gotten used to calling these devices passive preamps. Everyone knows what they are, so why change the name. Its a matter of convenience. Just like there's no needle in your record player.
@@AT-wl9yq I'm a retired electronics tech in Canada and I never heard them referred to as "passive preamps". Heard them called bass cut and treble cut circuits ..... guess you learn something new every day
So you basically just need a very good quality CD player with an output level dial fed directly into the power amp. I've tried this before with very good results.
I deleted the preamp Computer straight into a schiit bifrost dac According to windows the volume stacks are being decoded in a way that there’s no quality loss by using the volume button on the taskbar
My gear made me to think preamp is responsible for final sound because oreamp/ input potentiometer governs the physiology correction to loudness . . But my gear cannot be trated as universal guidance to follow - nothing of it is available now to buy
@@Frankonero12 The problem is not everyone wants the exact same thing you do. That's why some products are made to go by whatever your version of "should be" is, and other products are designed to go by whatever someone else's version of "should be" is.
I put a schiit lokius eq in cause my preamp has no tone controls. What a difference. Almost all recordings need a tweak. Ya bring back tone controls!!!!
For almost 2 years I was listening to my BlueSound node 2i connected directly to my amp using the node as a pre with its volume control but something was always missing and I could’t figure it out so checking out the internet people were blaming the nodes less than perfect DAC and recommending a linear power supply upgrade for the node, well I upgraded its power supply and only got marginal improvement of the sound but my issues remained which were mainly in low volume listening and constantly adjusting the volume as some passages were too loud and some low levels not loud enough. Almost giving up I dragged out my 20+ year old Rotel preamp just to see what happens and you guessed it at the first listen all my problems and issues were GONE ! Perfect level matching and full dynamics at any volume level.
Do NOT listen to people that say the less in the signal path the better or DAC volume control is all you need, You will do yourself a disservice !
I have an Hattor passive/active preamp and it is best thing ever. Fabulous features, dual mono, with switchable 3/6/9 db available in active mode if and when needed. Super silent and amazing "ease and naturalness". Here people are selling their 20K $ active preamps and replacing them with the Hattor which cost 1500$. Hattor's does offer something forward thinking.
Like many, my system is optimized around a digital source. It has a triode output amp/buffer so quite capable of driving the amp. This affords the use of high quality autoformers to perform attenuation. They are literally a wire with extremely clean signal response. Any form of resistor degraded the sound. LDRs (light diode resistors ) came close but the autoformer was a clear win. I also find that digital attenuation works fine. I struggle to hear any issues with dynamics but leave the autoformers in the chain as they do no harm.
I suppose it depends on the volume attenuator in the source component (if it has one). I opted to skip the preamp because of limited space, so I selected a DAC with a good volume attenuator among other criteria. I suppose a preamp would be ideal but I'm satisfied!
With a source player like an Oppo 205 that has both variable volume control & very uniquely HDMI input, you can very much get away without a preamp because you can connect it directly to an amplifier. However, just as Paul stated, I have two preamps that sound better going through them vs direct to amp.
Of course they are both no slouch--being the highly coveted 100% analog Conrad-Johnson tube MET1 and Audio Research SS MP1 analog multi-channel beasts. Back in the day I had no idea how much a preamp affects the sound... but it most certainly does!
I ran my dac straight to my amp for a while. Though it was a very clean sound, it seemed to be very clinical. I added a preamp and it kind of softened the edges a bit, made it more enjoyable and less fatiguing. It has a tube stage that really sweetens it up, especially on lower quality older recordings.
There some amps that have a pre-amp and main amp in one unit, also some have a DAC as well.
@@deadandburied7626 👍ya, I am more of a seperates guy. I do have a receiver for home theater but for music I prefer seperates.
The preamp is something many manufacturers overlook. The ones found in most receivers and DAC combos are just plain out terrible. Even if the pot is good. The internal preamp is a weak link. If you are lucky some DAC combos allow you to turn off the variable output to fixed. Allowing you to connect to an external preamp. I will keep saying it. That separates are the best way to go. Regardless you choose to go with tubes and vinyl or digital and solid state. You can't beat a quality preamp in the middle of things.
For shop system [ tuner, amp, speakers] I use a simple volume control between tuner and amp.
You need to have the right cable for turntable ideally 43 ohms 19pF/1000ft from the turntable to the phono stage, Keep it short as possible. And from the phono stage to the amplifier can use the same cable or something like a 47 ohm but keep it under 50 ohms But make sure it's long 5 m+ you'll get great dynamics and good bass response. The lower ohms cable makes the cartridge more sensitive.
I'm using an Icon pro4 passive with dual stereo autoformer volume control and full remote control. It's pricey but offers fantastic clarity.
Never thought a preamp would make any difference in the way it sounds
Wow I was wrong!
The attenuation section of a quality pre-amp will be better than the built-in attenuator in your CD player.
The focus of a quality CD player (where the research and $$ are used) is in its transport section and its DAC section (not in its attenuation section, because that is the job of a pre-amp).
When you purchase a quality pre-amp, that box's attenuation section is the focus of the research and $$ spent in engineering and building that box.
It is like comparing a DAC that is built in to a smart-phone with a stand-alone DAC that is an entirely separately box with its own power supply. Of course that stand-alone DAC should sound better than the one built-in to a smart phone.
As you get into better and better audio equipment, you get more and more separate components.
There are pre-amps with two power supplies (one for each channel), and pre-amps with a separate chassis that houses the pre-amp's power supply.
There are some very good components in receivers and other combo type audio components. But in general, the sound quality will improve as you specialize each and every component of a stereo, and that is why a using a quality pre-amp should sound better than feeding your DAC directly to your amps. The DAC's attenuation section will not be a good as a quality stand-alone attenuator that you find in a quality pre-amp, because that is the job of the pre-amp.
thanks Paul yes always thought that having a good preamp made all the difference .ps would a good preamp tube preamp attached to solid state power amps .give it a more analogue sound .many thanks for all the videos over the years
Solid state preamps are just as analog as tubes. I would say focus on getting the right preamp for your system. It may be tube or solid state. However, I will say this. Getting the wrong preamp can wreck the sound of your system as easily as a bad speaker or power amp upgrade.
"Our preamps are so good, that they are better than the source signal they are being fed"
-psAudio
I'm still till this day running a completely passive phonostage both with passive SUT gain and Blue Alps Velvet potentiometer directly feeding a poweramp.
No preamp for me thanks, just a real discrete passive solution, a variable resistor for controlling the volume - can't be beat.
Seemingly you were on the right track in your early career Paul, but then you sacrificed fidelity for 'ease of use'
i don't do compromises with fidelity, - though I'm sure your cost-no-object pre-amps outperforms other similar solutions.
All the magic happens in the preamp…
All flavours are added in the pre amp.
A MiniDSP as preamp that:
* That correct your room
* That fix a better quality x-over than ANY speaker has today in it's cabinet
* That take your TT and fix if you need a rumble filter
* That fix time alignment between drivers
* That fix homo sapiens hearing sensitivity in different frequencies (yes we are not those snowflakes that we think we are.) 🤣
* That fix your subjective preferences and give you presets for different mods, listening volumes and music types.
* And the list goes on and on and it is only your imagination that that is the limit.
That actively realizes magic ✨ is indeed unbeatable!
That makes every traditional solid state or tube pre-amplifier to pail in comparison regardless of its price.
When they can't just for starters do anything for your listening room.. And if that were not enough the MiniDSP can simulate any pre-amplifier if we know it's frequency response (but that doesn't actually matter and is uninteresting when you make it sound as you subjectively like instead.)
The time you will invest in learning and adjusting how all that works is less than keeping moving in and out different pre-amplifiers in your same room and hoping for "perfection".
But realizing that you only get a slightly different sound.
It's the definition of madness to do that whole your life and expecting a different result 😅🎼
Do preamps color the sound?
@@randomtube8226 besides the speaker, the pre section is the next biggest thing used to colour the sound. For example, do you remember the Hall/Arena/Stadium/Church Modes found on AVRs of yesteryears? Thats all done in the pre section.
@@AmazonasBiotopminiDSP is a company in Hong Kong. I once visited this company (R&D center). Yes, they make awesome DSP products at an affordable price. I have the Flex Eight 8 channel outputs box that I use for some active cross-over setup with 6 mono blocks and subwoofer all optimized to precision. Rip out your old passive cross-over filters and go active. It’s not too hard and fun to get the performance to the next level. I also have their calibrated microphone that works very well for room measurements and calibration.
I’ve been thinking of buying a power amp and driving it with my Hugo 2, basically a dac with a variable output (even a remote). I’ve seen some call this a digital preamp.
using a dsp unit as "preamp" would work great for those of use with digital only sources, pc source to a minidsp shd or flex, shd has streamer also and can be source. then from that into dac and then into power amps.
paul did say at one time (the best preamp is no preamp).
As usual, excellent video Paul.
I also watched Bascom's video on why a pre-amp makes it sound better, (although that is only the case with high-end pre-amp, not cheaper ones which make it worse).
Was surprised to hear you're developing a new Pre-amp. How are you going to top Bascom's creation?
I like the Schiit Valhalla in the back...lol
Paul is great at explaining stuff.
It depends on your budget. If you are someone that kind of likes audio and a 1k to 2k budget then the systems of the past like at Circuit city with the all in one receivers and some Cerwin Vega's or similar gets the job done. For those budgets it's GOOD ENOUGH either in they like the sound enough not to spend more or they would spend more but the budget currently doesn't allow it. You get into ultra hi-fi systems and separates makes sense as one component only doing one thing with premium parts laid out the most optimum way without space constraints tends to give a better sound ( given that room treatments and everything else is equal ).
A preamplifier is much less needed today and adds extra signal processing that technically isn't helping the signal's integrity. For those of us who have completely switched to online audiophile streaming or DSD playback, the traditional input switching is replaced with digital source switching before the DAC. Ages ago I enjoyed using a preamplifier because I had a record player, CD player, tuner and cassette player. Recently I got a pair of LS60 and I'm very sure it doesn't suffer from lack of a preamp. PS Audio should consider making an active speaker of the FR series or perhaps a separate speaker series rather than promote old-style audio topologies.
depends on a lot of variables.. I like to have more voltage ability and not clip the signal..
The issue becomes level setting. How do you adjust the volume? If you go straight from some high level source like a DAC or CD player it is going to send out it's full rated output voltage. Which might be either too much or not enough voltage to drive the amps. Likely too much! Without reducing the level you will over drive the amps. And even if by chance a perfect match, what about when you want less than full volume?
Your digital source's 16,24,... bits are spread across it's max output voltage. If you had a perfect voltage match of the digital source driving the amp to full power without clipping, but wanted to listen at half volume, you have to throw half the bits of resolution away. Want a nice background 1/4 level? 4 bits left from the 16?
Where by using even a passive analog volume control no mater how much you change the total voltage, the resolution of the signal does not change. The full original 16, 24, ... bit resolution is just applied across a .5V or .25V peak instead of 1V or 2V.
When a pre-amp is improving the sound, there is something wrong. It can be something quite simple, like the impedance of the power-amp is not ideal for the source. But if the PS DAC sounds better on their power amp, the pre-amp is not the device adding to the sound, as that is impossible. A matching between those devices is a better alternative. But a pre-amp is a good way for extra profit, anyways. I just use a great sounding pot between an amaizing DAC and the power amp and they are well together. Adding a pre-amp, even the by Paul praised PS product, and even better ones, will cause degradation.
My dac is my pre amp
When I connect a source that has volume control to the power amp section of my amp it sounds thin and unpleasant.
Is there such a thing as a dac that will play sacds directly fed into toslink/spdif from the sacd player?
So called passive “preamps” can open up a whole can of worms with impedance matching.
How can "passive" be called any kind of an amp ?? ..... the output is less than 1
@@bobross6802 That’s why I put preamp in quotes
As long as you either have limited sources or sensitivity controls on your amp, sure. The Lumin streamers have excellent attenuation and even the Bluesound’s volume can be controlled, as well as most software. You do run the risk of losing quality of the signal with inexpensive/poorly designed units/software.
I use the volume in my poweramp and use the streamer, I don't have any preamp.
My home made pre running on 6922's are vastly superior than simply switching and attenuation. the 6922 perform so much better than 12ax7's even after voltage adjustment. Next mission is to build a headphone amp with some 6922's. My cans has an impedance of 600ohms. Should be child's play for these valves.
I run everything into my receiver and use the Pre outs to feed my Amps. Seemed to have worked fine for the last 40+ years.
In this modern era, if all your audio is digital, through a decent DAC that has a volume control, well that's it, no need for a pre-amp by many.
My brother scored a lovely Luxman preamp, the previous owner was feeding his digital source straight into the power amps, so the pre was pointless to him.
A power amp would not normally have a volume control.
"spud" amps some people using them
How can "passive" be called any kind of an amp ?? ..... the output is less than 1. It can be an EQ or a filter etc ..
I see you've asked this question more than once. Technically, you are correct. However, the industry has gotten used to calling these devices passive preamps. Everyone knows what they are, so why change the name. Its a matter of convenience. Just like there's no needle in your record player.
@@AT-wl9yq I'm a retired electronics tech in Canada and I never heard them referred to as "passive preamps". Heard them called bass cut and treble cut circuits ..... guess you learn something new every day
So you basically just need a very good quality CD player with an output level dial fed directly into the power amp. I've tried this before with very good results.
I deleted the preamp
Computer straight into a schiit bifrost dac
According to windows the volume stacks are being decoded in a way that there’s no quality loss by using the volume button on the taskbar
My gear made me to think preamp is responsible for final sound because oreamp/ input potentiometer governs the physiology correction to loudness . . But my gear cannot be trated as universal guidance to follow - nothing of it is available now to buy
Dad, what is a preamp? Son, shut up.
Interesting
I'm not a fan of this 'no tone controls' trend. And while you're at it, bring back the selectable loudness function.
Exactly, audio should be fun to fiddle with. Not just sitting in a chair with a stupid remote and only listen to music.
@@Frankonero12 👍
@@Frankonero12 The problem is not everyone wants the exact same thing you do. That's why some products are made to go by whatever your version of "should be" is, and other products are designed to go by whatever someone else's version of "should be" is.
I put a schiit lokius eq in cause my preamp has no tone controls. What a difference. Almost all recordings need a tweak. Ya bring back tone controls!!!!
@@jimalbruzzess2445 👍👍
heresy!
Eliminating the preamplifier ???
Get a SOUNDBAR ......🤣🤣🤣
👍🏾👍🏾🤣🤣🤣
I am waiting for the Financial Pandemic.😀