Are vacuum tubes worth it?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Vacuum tubes are the original amplification devices. How do they stack up against modern solid-state transistors, especially in audio systems? And check out our newest TH-cam channel / @octaverecordsanddsdst... Octave Records.
I'm a builder of boutique guitar amplifiers - been doing it for quite awhile. (As a matter of fact, I build a model called "The Nipper," a 16-watter with a 10" speaker.) A guitar amplifier is actually only a part of the instrument known as the electric guitar, and it has its own characteristics to add to the total package. For the guitar, "accurate reproduction" is not the goal, since there is no "playback" of recorded material involved, but rather the production of music in realtime. Amps with all-tube signal paths have been the standard since dirt was rocks and Moby Dick was only a sardine. Guitar amps are routinely operated beyond their specifications, i.e., driven into distortion. The effects which come into play inside a magnetically saturated output transformer are *desirable,* and aren't "designed out" of guitar amps like they are in tube hi-fi equipment. Mr. McGowan is absolutely right - tubes should be used where their characteristics produce the desired results - and so should solid-state devices. There is a reason why beat-to-death 50+ year-old Fender guitar amps sell for danger money, and that reason is TONE. If you have a favorite guitar player, chances are pretty good he uses a tube amplifier. (For instance, Eric Clapton, Derek Trucks, Joe Bonamassa, Warren Haynes, John Mayer, Jimi Hendrix...a pretty well endless list.) Guitarists actually "play" the amplifier by controlling how much distortion is added to the tone, varying this in realtime by operating the guitar's controls and changing the pick angle and force sometimes several times in a second. Feedback - done on purpose - is also a desirable characteristic in a tube amplifier. Transistor amps don't do any of this very well, and that's why many *experienced* players don't use them. Yes, there are digital emulations of "classic" designs, but they sound like, well...emulations. Close, but no cigar. I'm not an engineer, and I'll be the first to admit that I know damn little about "high-end audio." I figure if it kicks ass and no smoke comes out of it, I did it right. ;-)
Paul is absolutely right when it comes to tube line stages and input sections being the best, and transistor based output sections being the best. At least imho. Definitely for hifi, but imho for guitar amps too.
Consistently the best sounding guitar tones i can make, are tube preamps, into the Effects loop return of an old randall rh150g3 metal amplifier head's tube buffered mosfet power amp. Years ago i discovered this, and i've had a lot of amps, all tube, all solid state, modeling into powered speakers now too. Ive built my own clones of some of the old greats, I keep coming back to my various tube preamp stomps and rack pre's into that mosfet power amp.
The current "best version yet" of my home hi-fi setup is a class A all tube preamp, into a good class D power amplifier. It's everything ive ever been after with musicality, soundstage, tonality and then some. A made a version of the preamp for a friend of mine's old solid state onkyo integrated from the early 80s after i recapped it and ditched all the unnecessary electrolytic i could. Whole new life into it.
Any chance i can get, i set up a tube front end with solid state power. There is just something about the combination that, as Paul puts it, is very hard to beat, nigh impossible. Im not after a classic sound necessarily, just what sounds best to my ears and thats it. I get quite a few compliments whenever i do play out as well, admittedly quite rare now a days though.
im actually considering reworking my current hifi preamp design into a single channel single ended preamp for my guitar, it's plenty quiet enough and has plenty of gain for it with a nice smooth clip. And starting from a known mosfet single channel power topology i can tweak to make my own guitar head unit thats everything im after in a single box. Hell i may tear the power section out of that old over the top randall thing and use it. 150 watts of clean headroom right there.
Line 6 made the spyder valve amps yeaaaars ago that had a bad wrap, mainly from people that never even tried them. I owned a combo, played several of the stacks. They had digital modelled effects running through an all tube front end, and a Tube buffered mosfet power section i believe. Those things sounded absolutely incredible at bedroom volume, and they sounded exactly the same at ear splitting volumes. I sold the combo planning to buy a half stack, but they discontinued them and i still havent seen one for sale locally anywhere. Which has bummed me out.
Anyhoo, if the market wouldn't have recoiled at the thought of what those line 6's were without even trying them based in some pretentious principle of thought, i probably wouldnt have to hack together my own version of it. And it would probably be quite a popular setup today. Anyone i have listen to music on, OR play guitar though such a setup are pretty much universally blown away with how musical it is, ESPECIALLY when it's not just trying to sound like something else, but simply a good guitar sound, or a good music sound.
I love your videos Paul!!!
Airplaine wings as desktop :)
or even better, a transformer desk? lol ;-)
:D
Cool but the dang pencils keep rolling off!
Note aircraft photo...are those Amelia Earhart wings?
Not a great writing surface though. All the rivet bumps play havoc with the paper.
It's a shame the person who made the wooden inserts couldn't make them fit properly at the front.
I told folks for years that a "hybrid" amplifier (containing both tube and solid state devices) will be your best sounding audio equipment, if...... If it was designed properly to begin with. Not all tube amps or even hybrid tube amps are made the same, they are far from. I've heard some tube set ups that just didn't sound right, and some setups that will blow you away. I prefer the warm sound of the tubes versus solid state only....
Learnt so much over the last few years watching Paul , grazie .
I just got my first tube amp last month. A Marshall dsl20 head. Pretty cool. I had been using line6 spider amps for years. The sound the tubes make is undescribable.
wait till you swap v1 for a proper nos tube like a mullard or ge...enjoy
Every professional, semi-professional or just good guitar player knows that the best guitar amplifiers have tube power sections. Unlike like regular amps we want that grit and imperfection. It is what makes guitar amps great and why guitar players pay 2k and up for an all tube(pre-amp, power section and rectifier) hand built guitar amplifier.
Goodbye eardrums at 5:06.
And then we have the pure joy of tube-rolling. It's so satisfying finding good old NOS tubes that sounds so different than the original tubes, and sometimes undoubtedly improving the sound, and sometimes not. But when it does work out, it is so satisfying... Just to have that capability just within the device itself is sort of comforting. I don't have to buy whole new gear to change the sound, just tinker a little. And I haven't even ever used a tube power amp. Just pre-amps and RIAA-stages and the like.
True, rather difficult to do transistor rolling LOL. I have done the gambit from 450 watt mosfet to KT88 / el34 250 watt power amps. So much is dependent on the speaker type. Owner of an IRS Beta, current sucking 1.8 ohm monster set of loud speakers with a direct comparison. Tubes were so much better (sound) than the transistors. The woofers columns were better with transistor or mosfet amplification. It was after this revelation I learned about the true benefits of 2nd order harmonics. Now I still use tubes but the speakers are with a 108dB sensitivity so triodes rule the the last stage at a whopping 4 watts, which since the woofers are self powered is twice what is needed. So again it is all about the speaker and your ear.
I've been looking for old TV's and radios. I would be thrilled if I could find some old 12ax7's or el34's.
I love my tube Decware system. The first time I realized the difference was the Van Halen catalog. I had read that VH and VH2 were recorded on tube equipment. I also read that Eddies' home studio was originally built with an old tube system and used on the album 1984. Then Eddie yanked it out and went all solid state for the album 5150. I didn't know this but remember buying 5150 on lp and thinking "why does this sound so polished and blah unlike 1984?" Now I know the reason why, tubes.
Solid state has its particular applications. Quilters sound great for jazz. JC120's sound great for squeaky clean stuff--the Smiths, for example. But tube amps sound good/great doing anything.
There is no such thing as "which is better." Its personal. Its what makes you feel better while listening. Some will actually feel better knowing that a certain distortion level is .0001. For me? Tube preamp, Class D amplifier. For you? Find out. Make a few mistakes along the way to discover what fits you the best. We are here to learn what? What the differences are, and what choices exist. Thanks, Paul for your lessons which are excellent.
Tube preamp into any power amp is the way to go!
Wooooww Lyon ?!! Damn I never thought that I'd hear about my city in a non-french video 😁
Tube preamp, into your favorite power amp. Done. None better. Period. Hifi equipment without some tubes is just a huge waste of money. I play and record real live music. I will not have a stereo without at least a tube preamp. Record and mix with transistors. Good. Listen and enjoy with tubes. Great. Works for me!
Came for the advice and stayed for the coolest desk I’ve seen! What a cool dude he is. You can tell not only he knows his stuff but the passion he has for it!
First time viewer and already subscribe.
Solid state or hybrid guitar amps sound great till you put the real deal next to them. Tubes rule!
True blue vacuum tube guitar amps have a much, much lower listener (guitar player?) fatigue than their solid state counterpart. Found out back in 1992 after playing a solid state Carlsbro amp for 20 minutes and my ear and brain sarted tl hurt likr hell. Yet I can play for 8 hours straight or even three days non stop on a 1965 Fender Twin with NOS Sylvania 6L6 vacuum tubes.
Depending on the genre. Metal often times sound better on transistor amps like the one of Dimebag from Pantera.
Felix TheCat
Dimebags tone was shit and so is most metal. Scooped mids, high treble, and not enough bass sounds bad coming from any amp.
@@ryanwilson5936 No its not. Every technology has advantages and disadvantages. Tube ist warmer and creamer suitable for Blues, Indie, 60s sound and so on. But the disadvantage of tube is slower response time and sag. Transistor sounds colder but also reacts more clear and faster which is better for metal sound. But i prefer tube amps personally.
For sure
"vacuum tubes are Bitchen"
man he is old school
Kipper Klank heck yeah, he’s the quickest son of a bitch since a glass of water!
nipper is such a good boy.....thanks Paul
Hi Sir, I've learned so many things watching your videos. I'm new to hi res audio and just purchased my first DAC/AMP and headphones. You've helped me understand how it all works and I just can't stop watching and learning all this stuff. Thanks so much!
You didn't mention that whether or not they're 'better' or 'worse'... some people like me just prefer tube sound.. and the fact I like seeing all the tubes light up ... maybe the benefit is just placebo... I don't care... I love the whole tube experience....
Paul you are right about reverb in tubes. Remember years ago that Pioneer made a tube room helper, I forgot what you call it but I still have one somewhere. You hook it up to your stereo and it gives the music a much fuller sound ! They made several variations of it. I’d love to hear what you think about these music pieces as they do work. I can remember in High School my friend had a Kenwood stereo with a pair of Klipsch shop made speakers with one of those hooked up and I always was so impressed with what it would do to his little stereo. It brought it to life ! It was nothing without that Pioneer hooked up. Anyway just remembering things we all did for the Music ! Keep up the educational videos !
in truth, there is no substitute for what a WELL DESIGNED valve amplifier can offer an audiophile. it's ability to create a three dimensional soundstage is simply uncanny, and unachievable by merely having a valve pre and "FET" transistor output stage. if you want the gain, you have to accept the pain (and fact) that a tube is much like a light globe and bears a similar fate, yet for all its physical (or electronic) misgivings, its sonic signature is unparalleled.
If you want the current akin to powerful transistors use big radio station transmitter tubes for the final stage. You can get an 833A for as little $130 and compare that to the 4 or 5 figure price of a high end transistor amplifier. Also I don't think microphonics is a problem for such a final stage even if you like to accompany sitting out an earthquake listening to music.
Isnt it great that we have the option of tube and solid state amplification, to choose from. To pick which most appeals to our ears and tastes, visual impact, sonic qualities and so on. Progress leading us toward bigger and better things all the time, but never forgetting where we have come from. What a pity the S/S vs glass debate is so corrosive and divisive, even though it leads to the same eventual outcome for all of us, ie; sonic perfection. At least, within the confines of the depth of our wallets, we have that choice to make.
you can have my 8 watt 300b single ended triode when you pry it from my cold dead hands
Tubes don't last for ever soon as you plug them in they slowly die used regularly 12 months life expectancy on average is what you can expect.
Lol weighs as much/more then oldie Krells.
My favorite thing about older tech is just how customizable it is
And also how it might not work perfectly but it'll always going to try
OK lets get this straight. High fidelity is about producing the most accurate sound of the source. Vinyl ,CD,Tape or whatever. The salesman in the shop was trying to convince your correspondent that modern solid state/digital amps are as good as valve/tube amps for producing THAT guitar tone that we all know and love. No way!! At least not yet.As I see it, the job of the HIFI industry is to try and bring the sound of the performance into your home and is totally separate from musical instrument amplifier design.
The French guitar salesman was doing his salesman job, nothing more, nothing less. The last 5 years have seen astonishing progress with mosfets used to mimic tubes for guitar amplification and I have been buying up dozens of these 'platform' pedals to compare against the vintage amps they attempt to model, and the conclusion is: 'not there yet'. There is a choked midrange and 'grayness' with the transistor versions compared to the tubed originals. I concluded that Mosfets have a 'sound' just as tubes do. Despite the advantages in portability I will not be leaving the tube amps at home. Once you've heard and played the best why would you settle for not quite as good?
When I was growing up, tubes were on their way out and nobody was really sorry to see them go. The goal was to reproduce sound sound as accurately as possible without adding, subtracting, or coloring the music, to get as close to the live performance as possible. Then, if it was necessary to tune the response (or even to adjust for taste) there were bass, sometimes midrange, and treble controls. If one wanted to get crazy, one could get a graphic equalizer with up 19 frequency bands.
When I started out, there was Hi-Fi, then came stereo, then stereo with a middle channel, then quadraphonic, then surround sound 5.1 and THX. Still, the idea was to make one feel like they were in a live music venue, whether a concert hall or a smaller setting like a pub.
Somewhat later, there was the shift from analog (vinyl) to digital (compact disc) and later compact disc with compression (mp3, etc.). With enough bits, a high enough sampling rate, and really good quality (low phase shift) ADC and DAC, it is impossible to tell the difference by ear (except for the LACK of the noise and distortion inherent in vinyl) and nearly impossible to tell even with electronic measurement devices.
So, now you all want to go back to having coloration to the music that for decades we were trying to get rid and spending thousands of dollars to do so. I can't help but be amused. Get a high end solid state amp and DAC, add a control board with parametric EQ and adjustable attack, delay, and reverb and you can color your sound any way you like it.
Odd harmonics will never beat the warmth of even
But without a tube preamp you will never get realistic sound. Guess how I know. I play and record real music.
@@peterbaugh51 If the music is recorded accurately and then played back as faithfully as possible, what difference does it make which electronics are used? Sure, you can "color" the playback to whatever suits your taste. But, that is not reproducing the music, that is corrupting it.
You can listen to different solid state amps and each one will sound a bit different. You can listen to different speakers and these will sound different. People will listen to different gear and choose what sounds best to them. If all speakers were the same there would be no need for different brands. If all amps sounded the same there would be no need for more than one brand. I think what they wanted to do was keep up with Japan in the race to develop a transistor. They had a whole new product to market and sell. All about the sales (money). There was a time when everything was done in mono. Then stereo became something new to sell people on. However, mono has a better sound. Many people think tubes sound better. Many people like solid state. With solid state amps came more power. Then they could sell people on the need for more power. You need a 100 wpc amp. A 30wpc amp will drive most speakers to a loud volume. This is all subjective. Only the listener can decide what sounds best to him/her. This guy might try making some audio demos of his amps. I do not care about all the talk. Let hear it~!
Consumers shifted from CRT Tubes and largely rejected Plasma for LCD screens which were the worst display option because they prioritized less heat, weight and thinness over raw PQ. Consumers will always value convenience over quality. It’s revisionist to say tubes were rejected for their sound and not being more of a pain to upkeep & companies also looking to save a dime on cheaper transistor manufacturing. Whichever style you like is fine but there is one truth, you can’t “equalize” a solid state into a true tube sound anymore then you can play with the picture settings on an LCD and get it to look like an OLED.
*Nostalgia is like a falsely coloured vibrant rainbow, which was always just black and white. I am currently contemplating the Tubes Vs* *Solid State amps, but I think how I can rationalise it bottom line is that just like I transitioned from VHS to DVD, Cassette > CD >MP3 you* *will always find your heart whatever you grew up with. Trust your ears and be open minded but always temper everything with wisdom.*
For example the internal impedance of tubes are higher than in the transistors (there are good enough JFET also BJT). So a JFET is a equivalent of tube bit with low impedance. The impedance determinate the thermal noise specially at low signals. The comparison is complicated topic. When you set a transistor in the right place and in the right working point it can be driven even except a negative feedback. For me it primary depends on design but for low noise preamplifier the tube is a most noisier compared to the transistor input. That is why there are no good examples of RIAA tube preamps (I will not comment the transformer impedance solution) for MC cartridge.
This is a question for the ages. It’s like asking “Vinyl or CD?” Ask 5 people and you’ll get 8 opinions!
The main sound difference in tubes is that, when the impedance goes above 8ohm, the tube sends more wattage; and since this usually happens in the bass region of ported speakers, that’s why they are more warm sounding.
Oh wow ! Interesting. Thanks.
in conclusion Paul , are you saying that the perferct compo is a solid state drive with a tube preamp???
This combo works for me, fantastic sound
Yes, and no. You can have a power amp with tubes, but the INPUT stage of said amp can be tubed, but the OUTPUT be solid state. If you notice in an all tube amp, such as a Dynaco stereo 70, they use several types of tubes, the small tubes in use would be like the 12AX7 are for the input stage, accepting the signal from the preamp and something like the KT88 for the OUTPUT stage, but in a hybrid system the input is still the 12AX7, but the output is solid state. So in essence, you still get the sonic benefits of tubes, but the quickness of speed/attack of solid state.
To me separates are the way to go, tube preamp into SS power amp class A, A/B or D
Tube for Voltage gain mosfet for output stage.
John h Palmer Could define input stage for me please? Does an amplifier have an input stage, or is it the preamp section of an integrated amp?
Vaccume tubes are made by elves in hollowed out trees. They contain a little bit of fudge in them. It's what gives them that sweet sound
Howdy.
Whatever one finds is fun and/or appealing is worth it. Within budget of course.
I built a 2 x 35 W tube PA. I use my Yamaha headset jack to drive it. It sounds ok. I feel a degree of vintage enchantment and satisfaction having mastered basic tube amp. designing skills. Sometimes I re-experience the sensations of excitement I had when commissioning the PA. So yeah. For me tubes are worth it.
Usually one plays music for his own pleasure and not for the THD meter.
Regards.
I still have a couple of mono block tube power amps not using them , waiting for the right preamp to come along. I'm tired of having to recap everything . I wanted to set them up as guitar amps. Just don't have the ambition anymore
The question that begs to be asked is, how good are the current China made Golden Dragon tubes? Are they as good as the classic German Telefunken tubes? I am not aware of vacuum tubes being currently made in the U.S. or Briton -- but, as a MOSFET fan, I don't get out much!
not so good, nothing is as good as the real thing.
The old Germanium Transistors can sound very tube like :-)
The Guitar Shop guy was right. Guitarists VALUE distortion (especially if we're talking R'nR) and that's how that particular bizarro preoccupation is (justly) seized upon by that tribe of Musicians. Otherwise, I'll take SS every time. But everybody gets to fetish what snaps their particular set of garters. I own a tube amp, just to cover that base in "being an informed owner". And they do some nice things with Headphones, but for Power Amplifiers, I prefer SS amps that have been voiced in the tradition of tube amps. Vintage Pioneer, Phase Linear, Carver, Sunfire and yes, Mac...
I like the retro look. So decided to build a vacuum tube amplifier. Going for cosmetic vs cheap or modern. Steam punk style. I miss the old Zenith counsel TVs.
I have a tube hybrid pre-amp now and love it. Before that, a tube pre-amp and loved it. I also had a tube hybrid power amp. Loved it too, but finally went solid state. But I just don't have it in my to tube roll any more or spend money buying tubes. I guess if I could have what I want and don't have to worry about maintaining it, it would be tubes.
There's Op amps and Discrete op amps now to worry about :D
That Nipper story isn't "pretty cool". It's about the saddest story ever.
And it's not true. dogco.com/the-legend-of-nipper-the-rca-dog/
@@shickster1
then there is the story of Nippy which is Whitney Houston's story which is sadder than Nipper's
Did not end well
Vacuum tubes don't work well for cell phones... makes them difficult to fit in your pocket.
I would get soo frustrated every time my pen rolls off the front of that desk
Tubes are also better than solid state devices at maintaining voltage during temperature transitions. Modern zener diodes can vary quite considerably based on ambient temp whereas tubes are essentially self-heating.
And as such, good circuit designers will not apply zeners in situations where the temperature change matters.
I like my tube and SS amps; each function well in their respective systems. Would I trade my SS for more tubes, yes! Would I trade my tubes for SS, no way José.
Great video... Technically I think a tube Power amplifier would suffer very high THD, though this distortion is rather "soft"... Probably why tube lovers enjoy them, for their character
Paul was very good at explaining this situation. Your comment is in fact very accurate. Tubes do not impose "high THD" but a very low single digit 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion that is very pleasing to the ear. If an unaware listener is presented with tubes or very low THD solid state electronics the tubes will win every time. That does not mean it's accurate. If a listener is presented with tubes or live music in a blind test the tubes will win every time.
You go Paul, "Sell the Sizzle, not the Steak"!! As in "We like to make Magic!" Great explanation of tube vs transistors!!
It is a personal choice . . . I had a classic highly rated power amplifier, and it sounded sweet, but after a period of listening and then going back to my transistor amplifier, I thought the tubes superficial in producing a “sugar high” where the transistor amp had more reality and detail. As I said -- personal choice. If that is your taste -- bon appetit!
Hey Paul,
do you know anything about holophonics and binaural recording?
id love to hear your opinions on this subject, a lot of mystery surrounds it.
cheers.
Great Video - reminds me of the best sound I ever heard... Knew someone about 25 years ago who in my opinion had the clearest & loudest system I ever heard in his warehouse loft. Room filled with foam 2'x4' panel (exciter) speakers (about 30) and 2 subs (home built also) - he said he spent Just under $2,000 I remember for all - He would switch between a Tube Amp and Solid and the warmth and dimension from the tube was just incredible. I remember it feeling like I was smack in the middle of an orchestra. Even (to me) sounded better than the Disney sound experience where they spent $2M in the room. I really credited his sound to his tube configuration. Wish I knew exactly what is was... But yes, to each his own when it comes to sound.
i love my recapped fisher kx 200 all tube and use my luxman lv 105u alot love the sound
bronson osborne i have a fisher 800c i rebuilt. I love it.
Tube rolling can change your sound immensely.I Have also never heard a hint of feedback out of my mono block Primaluna amps. My KHorn AK6’s are fairly close to my amps, and with my Rega P10 and Apheta 3 they are by far a sweeter sound than my M Levinson solid state amp.
Well I think it’s important to compare sound quality of each. First it depends on the speakers some speakers sound better with solid state amplification and others with tubes. Second you will never get a solid stare amplifier to sound like a tube and vice versa. Each has a unique sound and you simply have to listen for yourself. My self I’m a vacuum tube guy. For me tubes have a more harmonically rich tone which just sound more like music to me. Different types of tubes also have different sonic characters as well so again you have to listen for yourself which tubes give you the sound your after. So ultimately you simply have to listen. As for are they worth it ? Absolutely without a doubt.
ps audio uses SS [current amplifiers] and tubes [voltage amplifiers] where appropriate and in different applications. Paul thanks for your highly boulderized informative videos.
Modern digital audio incl. CD players, media players, smart phones etc. involve a DAC that outputs a line level output. Any power amp takes a line level input to drive it. Thus, voltage amplification in a pre-amp is not much of a topic unless you have a record player connected and you enjoy listening to vinyl records. Most of us have switched to digital music and I really don't see the point of a vacuum tube adding value in a signal path that already likely involves more than 50 transistors from the band making the music captured by microphones in the studio to your amp making the speaker cones moving. If transistors sound so bad for you that you need a single vacuum tube in your pre-amp to get some quality gain, good luck finding a recording where vacuum tubes are used in the studio for other than electric guitars as a means of intentionally adding harmonics to the sound. With Paul's argument for vacuum tubes being good at voltage amplification, they could make sense in the microphone amps of music studios. But which music title is recorded using vacuum tubes in the mic amps??? These things exist: www.sweetwater.com/store/search.php?s=vacuum+tube
ThinkingBetter good argument but wouldn’t the final output gain the tones back?
You are wrong. Many people say it doesnt make a difference. But when you hear tube and transistor side by side tubes sound much more warm and cosy. Technically tubes are more inaccurate but that is probably also where the beautiful sound comes from. Hifi systems and guitar amps are made to make music sound as best as possible not as accurate as possible like audio monitors do.
@@ThinkingBetter My Father is an enginer and he was alway convinced that tubes sound exactly like transistors. I belived it until i heard my first tube amp. It is worlds apart and can not be moddled accurate. Of course its about taste. I also have both. Clean Monitor transistor sound for pc and mixing and tube for home theatre and music and one tube amp for guitar. And i like both.
Felix TheCat I see no reason why a DSP can’t make a better modeling than the original. You just need your audio processing layout to be sophisticated enough to mimic the tube behavior and then tune it to sound even better. A DSP can do so much more than some fixed tube can do. Tubes look cool though.
Maybe 60 year old big band and jazz
on valves human voice and sound staging takes some beating I have VTL 150 watt power valve power amp tight bass ultra clean that is a amp with a lot of current I also have a singke ended 12 watt which is very good
And after all it all comes down to the fact that it depends on the person who is listening the system, whether it's a pair of cans and a headphone amp or a pair of speakers and a power amp. In the end we all ( I suppose) share this hobby, because we like listening our favorite music through our preferred system. Some people like the sound of tubes, some people don't, so that determines if the tubes are worth it or not for the person who is considering to get tubes into their system chain. I would just advice to try to get to listen different systems in the neighborhood or maybe at a hifi exhibition. In this hobby people can share the knowledge what is better by the numbers and physics and in which cases some components are better over the other ones, but no one can strictly tell someone else what sounds better than something else, because it is a matter of taste and you cannot argue about taste. we all want to fulfill our passion and find our ways to the perfect system of our own, which is not the same for everyone.
Simple answer.. *YES*
I build all my amplifiers, guitar amps, hifi amps etc. Tube circuitry doesn't seem that sensitive to funky wiring, just find the error and fix it. Hence I opt for all out tube circuitry.
the question itself is incomplete and it is impossible to discuss. My answer is: yes solid state amps are better, and yes valve amps are better. It is just a nonsense because all depends on what loudpseakers you drive with that amp. If you find the best sinergy with the right loudspeaker, a solid state amp could be the best possible, compared to a mismatched valve amp-wrong loudspeaker. But with the best sinergy with the right loudspeaker, a valve amp could be the best possible. So it is not depending on the amp quality itself but related to sinergy with loudpeakers (and other aspects too)
How nice, you are repeating everything Paul said.
Good video, Hasn't anyone tried making a very high voltage solid state amplifier where the output is transformed like a valve amp? wouldn't that give you that "warmth" (damping) of a valve amplifier without the microphoney ?
Personal experience so I thought I'd share. The tube rollers. Those lucky few who know what their doing and like to roll those tubes. I agree with your comments. True, rather difficult to do transistor rolling, LOL. On power amps tube verses mosfet: I have done the gambit from 450 watt 4 ohm mosfet amps Hafler DH500 & XL600 to KT88 / El34 / el34 250 watt Audio Valve Challenger power amps. So much is dependent on the speaker type. Owner of an IRS Beta, current sucking 1.8 ohm monster set of loud speakers as a direct comparison. Tubes were so much better, sound wise, imaging, dimensional presence, fluid, with the tubes. The woofers columns were better with mosfets, impact, raw punch, 15Hz no problem. It was after this comparison, revelation I learned about the true benefits of 2nd order harmonics. Now I still use tubes but the speakers are Avantgarde Duos with a 103dB sensitivity so triodes rule the the last stage at a whopping 4 watts, which since the woofers are self powered 4 watts has plenty of headroom with twice what is needed. So again it is great part about the speaker and your ear. I 'm going to say this was not just my opinion rather universal with all who listened. So there that as well.
I’m excited I’m waiting for a six watt EL 34 single ended amp that’s being built
My understanding was that selecting one or the other was largely a matter of what characteristics of the harmonics you are after. In music production, I tend to use tube preamps and tube emulation plugins for gentler saturation, when I'm after some compression, and a little bit of grit / thickness. I listened to an interview of a tube preamp manufacturer who is convinced that the primarily even order harmonics produced when recording sources with strong transients might sound more music / less dissonant than some of the harmonics produced by solid state devices, which stands to reason, although I am certainly not too precious about this. I like the sound of many solid state circuits as well!
It all depends of the quality of the tubes....
If you put a vacuum tube behind a sound proof enclosure, would you say it still sounds better than transistor amplified sound? I tend to appreciate tube sound and one of the reasons I've heard tube sound being better is that it handles peaks better, where with solid state you get clipping.
If you can't hear or don't appreciate the tube sound then no it's not worth it. But don't run around telling others what they hear and what they should hear and why they think it's better or worse is wrong.
I'll tell you this, I've never heard a cheap amp or speaker etc. that was worth a shit. So the excuse that they cost too much is BS. And it's not the couple of tubes Paul throws into his high end amp that makes it expensive.
Transformers are expensive. And using tubes in the output stage and having to couple them to the load with transformers is expensive. But even then, if you simply look at the BoP that doesn't explain why high end gear in general and tube gear in particular is expensive. It's the overhead of running the company and the cost of engineering and manufacturing, shipping, etc. Paul's salary, for example. (Which I don't begrudge him. He's entitled to make as much as he wants to from his company. Just poking fun.)
The engineer in Paul (and possibly the business man) is coloring his opinion. He's always talking how from an engineering aspect solid state or tubes are superior. I'll bet eventually his ears will override his education and he'll come to the realization tubes sound better and the best thing to do is figure out how to improve their use in the areas they might be weaker in. That's what tube manufacturers do. They are perfectly aware of the limitations. They work to improve their performance in those areas.
Are vacuum tubes worth it?
when properly implemented my opinion is yes!
preferred method though is tube front end with class "A" mosfet back end.
To each his own.
As for me, I prefer tubes.
And magic is individual. Have Avantgarde horn speakers, used NAIM audio equipment in the beginning. But due to the high sensitivity (104db) it did not work at all. Now own E.A.R Yoshino Pre amp and Power amp, Satisfaction guaranteed!!
Some people cannot hear the better sound provided by tubes, for them solid state is fine. However I can hear the difference and the extra cost of tube preamplifiers and amplifiers doesn't concern me.
What is perfection? My Hammond A100 has tubes that moan and color and give life to my sound, like a lively girlfriend that you never get tired of because of the dynamics. You would only have a Hammond with transistors as a put-upon businesswoman that you have to make love to according to the book. Tubes give you the perfection of a non-glass life with power and color and above all... the tension you listen to.
Tubes have their own sound. Best design devices will use tubes in the preamp stage, but output stage MOSFET. Get even order harmonics with dynamics and power of solid state,
I can't stand the sound of transistors and op-amps..
It has to be, analogue, tubes, SUT's Blue alps pots.
Sut's being completely passive gain, doesn't even require external power.
The same with variable resistor pots for volume control.
Passive, discrete solutions sounds better.
There isn't a single transistor in my audio chain.
One of the best bass guitar amps I've ever played through so far is my old 1975-1976 non-reverb Fender Super Twin amp, it's an all tube guitar amplifier that uses a total of six 6L6 power tubes in the power amp circuit, it is capable of putting-out 180W RMS, or a whopping 395W peak into speaker loads of a minimum of 4 Ohms, my Ibanez Soundgear 6-String bass sounds really fat and warm through the Super Twin which I have connected up to my old Peavey 410TX 4 X 10 inch bass cab.
As a guitar player for 41 years, I've had and do still have both valve amps and solid state amps. I use amps that are fit for my current application. Occasionally, I use both types at the same time. Using a A/B switch I select the correct amp for the tone desired. However, I find that the speakers and the enclosure they ride in are the biggest impact on overall tone.
I've had prominent local musicians fool themselves into thinking I was playing through a valve amp at a gig, when it was, in fact, a transistor design.
In the first instance people listen with their eyes.
This is the correct answer.
Tubes add to the sound. If you want something added to the sound, that's fine but better is mostly subjective and if we're talking about purity of signal (which is what most audiophiles are after), tubes ain't it.
Interesting. What you say makes a whole lot of sense. Very well explained. I grew up in a radio station family. After years operating tube transmitters our station purchased a Nautel FM transmitter. In this high power application the new sound of the station is exquisite.
I really love my Valvestate marshall combo. Groove tube-preamp and FET power amp.
My radio feeds on them like a starved animal but it’s higher quality then present day radios.
Will PS Audio ever make a tube amp/pre? Like if you want them to make one!
We do! It's our BHK series. www.psaudio.com/products/bhk-signature-preamplifier/ and there's a power amplifier as well.
If you have never heard a top drawer (carver is the primary alter I pray at with crimson 350 monoblocks which are high end audio bargains not the WAY overpriced rolls royce plated mcintosh and other 'audiophile' tube stuff wasting gobs of money festooning with gold plated bobbles) TUBE power amp using 'kinkless tetrode" (KT) tubes (invented almost 80 years ago) also called 'beam power amps' or 'beam power tube' (they have the well know KT 66/88/120/150 moniker, but there are other non KT named KT tubes like 6550, etc) - then you have not heard tubes for high power audio and sound at their absolute best. I also have built and bought and love power MOSFET SS amps just as much. I pray at the alter of Pass Labs for that and use primarily now X350.8 power amps. I love Pauls youtubes, and love PS audio! (i first heard of them from an AES student chapter visit there back in the late 70s when PS was in Santa Maria ca, while i was an EE student at Cal Poly SLO) I have 2x stellar DAC and a Nuwave phone preamp/ADC - but respectfully disagree that modern tubes and tube amp designs cannot sound EVERY bit as good as SOA MOSFET output stage designs. Modern tubes are much more reliable these days for current tech, even power amps, and so are the transformers. A tube power amp does for sure need a REALLY well designed and superbly executed output transformer as part of a modern high power tube design. Lastly Class D is not something I bring up here as those really need to be compared solely to class A and Class AB (or class G/H with tracking power supplies for SS designs) whether they are KT TUBES or SS MOSFET / BJT designs. Class D is a whole different mentality all together. Class D have revolutionized Front of House (FOH) PA and sound reinforcement use for venues small to 100K seat stadiums, but they still need to evolve more (class T was the best class D version amps I have ever heard) to compare to the best KT Tube and or MOSFET SS class A/B designs
Traditionally, you tend to get very simple circuits with tubes because although you can sprinkle transistors in wherever there's a benefit, you can't just keep adding tubes for small performance gains.
The simplest way to put it......... It's all in the eye of the beholder. If you like tube amps, they are worth the effort and cost. I'm a DIY tube rig guy.
Tubes distort. But we like how the distortion sounds.
And that's why tubes are good.
Personally i think tubes at preamplification followed by a transparent transistor power amp is best.
Solid-state circuitry is not more reliable than tube circuitry, the year before last year I had four of my devices filled with the latest solid-state technology literally fail on me just after Christmas, the devices were an Acer Aspire 5 laptop computer, a Polaroid 65inch UHDTV, a Nintendo Switch, and a Samsung Galaxy J2 Pro mobile phone, all these devices used the latest in modern solid-state technology, yet they all failed within a year or so of purchase, now I have an old Fender non-reverb Super Twin all tube amp that was made in 1975-1976, and apart from some old carbon comp resistors needing replacement, the amp has given me very little trouble and is still working.
I got a Yamaha RX-V1500 (2005) Paired with a pre-amp Vacuüm tube which is very upcoming! (ali-express)
modern pre-amps even with bluetooth, remote control, different modes, bass treble regulation and so on!
For a little bit of money you can get better sound is my opinion. better bass low's and mids to a receiver or for sure by a cheap stereo setup is my experience.
I love the sound of a good tube even a 6j1 or 6j5 one (Custom, tubes) in every situation! Music, films, games and so on. Tubes FTW!
Hi , another great informative video, whist I was working for the Metropolitan Police’, back in late 80s early 99s I was involved installing new high band main radio system even then we had hybrid transmitters made by FKI Burndepr , it had transistor driver and valve - tube PA . I fully like the idea of re insurgence if tube amps and preamps , I fully concour that you get a more mellow sound compared to transistors pa . I am looking forward in having a tube- valve pre amp. Regards mark
I like my instrument tube amps. Ampeg SVT, B-25B, Fender Bassman and Twin Reverbs etc, yeah great sound. Plug them into the wall or floor, they are/were quiet and no noises. They take a lot of abuse (bumps, vibrations, poor heat dissipation, transported upside down, you name it) and still work as they should. Never had to use a hum eliminator or power conditioner. Home audio power tube amps? Mixed. I continually chase down ground loops and power line hums. With no signal, the room sounds like a B1 sustain. If I could have known then what I experience now, I would have never bought a stereo tube amp. Never again. I just wonder if professional amps are designed and built better than home stereo stuff.
The best way to make sound is in a vacuum....LOL
Only if your speakers are above 95db sensitivity, otherwise just get a clean sounding class A/B solid state (descrete) power amp. I wouldn't even bother with class D "chip-amps"...
Great answer. I like the way you described the worthiness of both vaccum and solid state electronics.
www.tubecad.com/2012/06/blog0233.htm Tube I/V converter! I'm actually finishing up my plans to build a differential I-out DAC (He refers to an AD1955 in one or two of his schematics but I might actually use that chip as its cheap, meets all my requirements and actually is decently reviewed) and I'm going to breadboard one of these Broskie I/V's and a FET I/V stage as well to see what I like the most. It will either be the Broskie or like a BJT setup to output .4-.5 volt...depending on what I can manage for DAC output I'll try and use a 12au7 or maybe a 6922 to get up to solid line level.
I have everything but a few $ worth of resistors so its mostly a "for the fun of it" experiment...just curious if anyone else has gone down this route and what there results were
+1 for tubes (so many variants).
Hate so rich and I am a poor man All I want is a fine integrated tube amp. And all I can Afford is a China made amp. I have VTL amp and build standard we’re poor in the 90’s. I love magic in my music room. PS Audio is not in my Ball Park. China amp are so good. Not Luxman But sound is all I need .I have had tube for 60 years . Mullard are my favoured EL34 are my favourite power tube and 6SN7 are my favourite splitter power supplier
Please call my nuts because this mask wearing guy is an individual. My mind is open ,but no one answer these note. Best Paul
And yet if you want to use a tube in a phono amplifier for moving coil pickups, you have to use a low noise transformer to get the voltage into a place where the tube can use it, or commit sacrilege and use a low noise transistor amplifier. For guitars the simple stages and transformer coupling of speakers add character to the sound. For HiFi the simple staging of valves, while not doing much for simple distortions, avoids the complex distortions of passing through many semi-conductor junctions, before being fed back, and fed through again. Think how many junctions there are in an op-amp, and how many of those are in a typical pre-amp. So a semi-conductor amplifier may mix the signal in ways not measurable, but confusing to brains trying to do spacial and tonal analysis. Then there is the question of what you actually need to do to turn an electrical signal into a sound via loudspeakers. Valve transformers drive speakers differently to transistor voltage power amps. Some have posited that current amplifiers drive speakers more realistically. Or some combination of the two, which may actually be closer to what a valve output transformer does (?). I just try to enjoy the noise as it comes out.
Pretty irrelevant Lyonman,tubes were only alternative before transistors,so think will continue repairing my old radios,reel to reels and my fathers old Grundig Oscillograph,just to try keep them going few more funny years.But thanks for video,His Master's Video.
To me its like the argument between Coke vs. Pepsi, or Red Wine vs. White Wine. Its a matter of personal preference. Some people like all valves, while other like all semiconductors and others like a hybrid. Ultimately, who really cares. Go with what YOU like and let other go with what they like.
Now get out there and enjoy doing you thing !
The most important stage in a tube amplifier was the output transformers to couple the high impedance of the tube to the low impedance of the speakers. Also depended on the efficiency of the speakers and how loud you wanted to hear your music. Tubes are good in the pre-amp section of the amp because they are voltage operated and have a better transient response than transistors, they are faster. But a small chip of silicon is much cheaper than the manufacturing that goes into making a vacuum tube.
From the Tung-Sol electron tube manufacturer:
www.tungsol.com/html/faqs14.html
Question:
Why is there a difference in Tube and Transistor sound?
Answer (excerpt):
The basic cause of the difference in tube and transistor sound is the weighting of harmonic distortion in the amplifier’s overload region.
Actually, I think it's due to the higher harmonic distortion even when tubes are not overdriven
So tell me Paul why does a good valve amp/se/pp/otl make your solid state stuff sound rubbish or at least wanting :-)