All of the "solutions" offered here will severely degrade the visual/esthetic quality of the window. The Swiss person doesn't say the window affects the sound; he merely asks if it might. If it's a window-wall built to modern European code, it's probably thick strong laminated glass with negligible resonance at normal listening levels. If you're happy with the sound, then don't change a thing. Relax and enjoy the music and the view.
Agree 100% - sometimes the best solution is no solution at all . . . As you say, listen first and if enjoyable, then don't fix something that is not broken, right? :-)
House plants in front of the glass can definitely give some diffusion effects, and look great. Slatted wooden window blinds too, can change the reflective "surface" when opened on an angle so it isn't a purely flat glass while listening. Both are far better to look at than extruded metal vibe-dampers, whatever that is.
What you said attempts to deal, lamely, with very high frequency reflections. What Paul said attempts to deal with low frequency sympathetic resonances.
Paul is just pulling that "solution" out of his ass. All a long bar might do is slightly change the window's resonance frequency - it might make things better or it might make things worse.
What about installing a window shade. Some pull downs have a flat surface and others have a honey come shape creating small hills and valleys, or others have over laping straight pieces of wood or plastic pieces.
I would suggest that low end issues from a window are not from the resonance of the glass but the boundaries in the window cavity if they are sufficiently deep to present an issue. Also high end could be scattered there. What ever you do attempt an equal approach. Rooms can only handle so many standing waves so matching the volume to your environment or presenting an artificially large room through treatment or furniture can be helpful. Like some one else said if it sounds good to you and you enjoy it without noticing crazy variance your good without doing anything. Most audiophile mombo jumbo is about vibes anyway. The vibe to cost ratio can be high around here. Paul seems to have some very good knowledge that gets clouded by the vibes audiophile vibe often.
In order to discover the actual effect of the window get a cheap stethoscope and turn the music up loud, so it's easier to hear the effect, and listen to the window with the stethoscope on the glass, you can do this from inside or outside, and you can hear what the window is doing. I've come across windows that are not damaging and then the windows in my place which are wildly damaging to the sound.... they just screech ... For Paul's idea of a damper via an aluminum bar and rubber, the correct rubber to use would be Sorbothane. For my windows I have on some applied 2" round 30 duro Sorbothane pucks, 1/4" thick, and for the same windows in a different room I taped on large rubber pieces. Book shelves are not good diffusers, they are, on the other hand, very good at generating resonances that will bug you for years until you figure out that they are the reason you have something wrong in the bass that you can't identify.
I am in similar but worse situation. I have a very large multi-use open floor plan area where my system is set-up. It is about 1,500 square feet that includes the living room, dining room, kitchen and kitchen nook. The ceilings are 12' tall and a large glass 12' long by 10' high set of glass sliding doors is on the right side of my system. The room is all hard surfaces creating terrible echo problems (think your high school gym) that I am just starting to solve for with some 4'x6' acoustic panels from Acoustimac. I have also thought about putting a curtain up across the sliding doors. My doors are hurricane impact proof so they are very heavy so I don't think I have the same issue that Paul described - I believe my doors are reflecting sound all over my room as my system actually sounds better with the doors open.
I like very much that advice. I would go also for something even less aestetic - it could be one or more handle for carrying glass like pro use and they get attachement to glass by vacum . If it ius not heavy enough attach to that something heavy. This could push the interaction to lower less audible resonance.
2 feet away from the window is probably closer than the audiophile guide would recommend. Is it possible to put them in 1 3rd or 1 4th of the length of the room?
Put an Acoustic Grove System ST1 on your first reflection point. Looks great and solves any reflection problem. Good luck and enjoy the festive season💫!
I can understand what you're saying about the strip but I'm not sure that would work. is best approaches to get some 6 mm perspex acrylic, if it's got a frame around the window that it should have, you can attach the perspex with long strips of Blu-tack or double-sided foam tape strips. you can use that foam strip as well to join two pieces together, or if you want a more uniformed unnoticeable joint, a stripper blu tack 3 mm thick squashed. that will stop sound leakage as well going outside or coming in. you could put diffusers as well at the bottom near the floor about 34 inches high. if you need to dampen the bass. very simple get yourself a stretch frame for a painting, woo fleecel is best, or loft installation not fibreglass that's different that's yellow, it's a brownie multi-coloured installation the fibres are friendly. about 300 mm thick put it inside the frame and get a sheet cover it and type up the back, should stand on its own the ideal way tho! is from the windows, find a piece of scrap bit of plank floorboard cut two pieces for each end about 8 long screw to the frame.
some glasses are harder and stiffer than normal gyproc on metal framing or even interior wall on wood... in the southern USA, they do not care about isolation... windows are often thinner, and mostly not double or even triple glasses... and for those suggestions about any soft material (Curtains, back rubber curtain, and more funny, curtain with synthetic material as diffuser (as all curtains nowadays are synthetic)... you will muting the sound with no effect on bass, and even less on sub-bass). a good stiff diffuser behind the speakers may improve the sound with blocking to much the joy of having windows.
You could have new windows fitted with the glass area divided into smaller multiple units ,the drum effect would go and the results would look better .
Add wood moulding across the glass to divide it into smaller panes. You would be surprised what you can do with half round doweling and double sided tape.
I have windows on the left side of my stereo that runs the full length of the listening room....windows open it just sucks the sound out and gives an unbalance sound....this is why a balance knob is still a necessary thing on integrated amps and preamps....not everyone lives in a soundproof listening room...98% of consumers listening in a living room...this is why no tone controls and no balance controls is just stupid on majority of audio gear.
@johnholmes912 I want the natural light and fresh air . I'm not trying to live in a dungeon. I just want a balance knob a basic tone controls....it's hard to even get these basics on gear anymore. All manufacturers think they are competing with top gear for people in dedicated listening rooms and their not....look at the yamaha c5000 preamp. Thisvis the perfect layout minus the phono stage built in. Only it's built to a $10k spec....give me the $3k version bare bones with tone controls and a balance.
Advice? If the listener enjoys his music and has no serious sound anomalies that he can discern, then don't bother fixing something that is not broken! Next to that if reflections are out of control then Paul has a good inexpensive fix with his idea of a diffuser. End of story. Putting stuff in or on the window is a sure fire beginning for divorce procedures :-)
🖤🤔if it's laminated or double glazed.. it will be quite dead.. float glass panels that size sans mullions and/or midrails would be 12mm minimum thickness to meet certification.. ♣the days of large wobbly panels of thin glass are long gone.. although some remain in situ that nobody's fallen through and severed both their arms & legs from their unfortunate torso..
I have large sliding glass doors in listening room and they are double glazed. But I’m wondering if replacing with acoustic glass would be better. Then add wood slats-blinds and also thick curtain. Does that sound like a decent idea? My Tannoy Cheviot floor standers (12” drivers) will face away from the sliding glass doors towards the other side of room at a distance of about 2 1/2’ from the glass doors. Room is 5.60m (18'4") x 5.45m (17'10"). Thanks for reaDing
i have the same situation with him however i have to put a curtain to reduce the sunlight and on day to day have to open some part of it for ventilation. so really not ideal.
Interesting perspective on curtains and the flexibility of the glass pane. I have a sliding walk out window on the left side of my listening area. My area is far from perfect, but I listen to the music, marvel at the sound illusion and consider myself a lucky guy to be able to do these things. I'll worry about more impactful stuff.
Paul's advice here is nonsense. Sorry Paul. If you're having sound impaired it's most likely reflection issues from the window. Try putting some heavy absorber up temporarily eg blanket. If it improves things then investigate room treatment that can stand in front of the window eg GIK panels on stands or good heavily lined curtains, which will look better but cost more.
It would probably be more Optimal, to cover over the window, with double drywall and some insulation between. Large Picture Windows are a major source of Heat Losses. As such, covering over it, would save a lot in Energy Costs. Personally, Ive heard speakers placed in front of large storefront glass windows, and it didnt negatively impact the sound at all. That said... these were bookshelf speakers, playing at a medium-low volume level... with all front-firing drivers. (and no Subs) Also, this would have been thick Tempered Glass... not the typical thin Plate-Glass, that is often used in standard house windows. I tend to think that unless you are playing at very high volume levels, and or with powerful Subs... and or are using rear firing drivers... that you would actually notice any issues. Best try it first, and go from there.
I have large sliding glass doors in listening room and they are double glazed. But I’m wondering if replacing with acoustic glass would be better? Then add wood slats-blinds and also thick curtain. Does that sound like a decent idea? My Tannoy Cheviot floor standers (12” drivers) will face away from the sliding glass doors towards the other side of room at a distance of about 2 1/2’ from the glass doors. Room is 5.60m (18'4") x 5.45m (17'10"). Thanks for reaDing
Again without knowing level of the persons system 500 bucks, 5,000, 50,000 we do not know what he is working with. Is room floor hardwood or carpet? If carpet could replace with thicker pad to helps top resonances some. For window you could take out window and put in a sound deadening type window with much thicker glass that doesn't flex like that. I know Pual says he doesn't like curtains but they do make some sound deadening curtains. Again there are options but they cost thousands of dollars or more. If you have very little money to spend then are going to have to go with cheaper options that are non-optimal but likely better than doing nothing. Goal at that point would be to work towards getting better room for the gear eventually.
Apologies, but terrible advice. Do nothing to the window, ... just enjoy the system. You can examine and treat the other walls, employ a handful of best practices, keep things symmetrical laterally, etc. If you employ treatment, it's vital that it's done in as broadband as possible. Unless its some outlier case whereby the window is obviously resonating, audibly contaminating playback ... then its fine. It'll perform like low-pass bass trapping, which is much needed. It's all good.
I do love the idea of using bookshelves with different sized books populating them. Excellent advice.
All of the "solutions" offered here will severely degrade the visual/esthetic quality of the window. The Swiss person doesn't say the window affects the sound; he merely asks if it might. If it's a window-wall built to modern European code, it's probably thick strong laminated glass with negligible resonance at normal listening levels. If you're happy with the sound, then don't change a thing. Relax and enjoy the music and the view.
Agree 100% - sometimes the best solution is no solution at all . . . As you say, listen first and if enjoyable, then don't fix something that is not broken, right? :-)
Thank you , Paul ! I'm a bachelor too lazy to put up curtains in my listening room , now glad I didn't .
Ha , same here , but I do have blinds
A Merry Christmas and a Prosperous New Year to Paul and Hi Fi Family.
House plants in front of the glass can definitely give some diffusion effects, and look great. Slatted wooden window blinds too, can change the reflective "surface" when opened on an angle so it isn't a purely flat glass while listening. Both are far better to look at than extruded metal vibe-dampers, whatever that is.
What you said attempts to deal, lamely, with very high frequency reflections. What Paul said attempts to deal with low frequency sympathetic resonances.
I have house plants & the 2 tube monoblocks behind my speakers with large bay windows.
Synthetic curtains will work as diffusers
If that window indeed resonates, I don't think that a long bar could fix it
Agree
Paul is just pulling that "solution" out of his ass. All a long bar might do is slightly change the window's resonance frequency - it might make things better or it might make things worse.
What about installing a window shade. Some pull downs have a flat surface and others have a honey come shape creating small hills and valleys, or others have over laping straight pieces of wood or plastic pieces.
I would suggest that low end issues from a window are not from the resonance of the glass but the boundaries in the window cavity if they are sufficiently deep to present an issue. Also high end could be scattered there. What ever you do attempt an equal approach. Rooms can only handle so many standing waves so matching the volume to your environment or presenting an artificially large room through treatment or furniture can be helpful.
Like some one else said if it sounds good to you and you enjoy it without noticing crazy variance your good without doing anything. Most audiophile mombo jumbo is about vibes anyway. The vibe to cost ratio can be high around here. Paul seems to have some very good knowledge that gets clouded by the vibes audiophile vibe often.
In order to discover the actual effect of the window get a cheap stethoscope and turn the music up loud, so it's easier to hear the effect, and listen to the window with the stethoscope on the glass, you can do this from inside or outside, and you can hear what the window is doing. I've come across windows that are not damaging and then the windows in my place which are wildly damaging to the sound.... they just screech ... For Paul's idea of a damper via an aluminum bar and rubber, the correct rubber to use would be Sorbothane. For my windows I have on some applied 2" round 30 duro Sorbothane pucks, 1/4" thick, and for the same windows in a different room I taped on large rubber pieces. Book shelves are not good diffusers, they are, on the other hand, very good at generating resonances that will bug you for years until you figure out that they are the reason you have something wrong in the bass that you can't identify.
A beanbag chair leaning against the window might help, just don't have any hot incandescent lamps nearby.
Mullions can vibrate against the glass, making things far worse.
I am in similar but worse situation. I have a very large multi-use open floor plan area where my system is set-up. It is about 1,500 square feet that includes the living room, dining room, kitchen and kitchen nook. The ceilings are 12' tall and a large glass 12' long by 10' high set of glass sliding doors is on the right side of my system. The room is all hard surfaces creating terrible echo problems (think your high school gym) that I am just starting to solve for with some 4'x6' acoustic panels from Acoustimac. I have also thought about putting a curtain up across the sliding doors. My doors are hurricane impact proof so they are very heavy so I don't think I have the same issue that Paul described - I believe my doors are reflecting sound all over my room as my system actually sounds better with the doors open.
I like very much that advice. I would go also for something even less aestetic - it could be one or more handle for carrying glass like pro use and they get attachement to glass by vacum . If it ius not heavy enough attach to that something heavy. This could push the interaction to lower less audible resonance.
2 feet away from the window is probably closer than the audiophile guide would recommend. Is it possible to put them in 1 3rd or 1 4th of the length of the room?
Put an Acoustic Grove System ST1 on your first reflection point. Looks great and solves any reflection problem. Good luck and enjoy the festive season💫!
Code for Merry Christmas
Steve Huff hifi is a reviewer, he has a lot of windows in his listing room. Wondering how he would review the sound of hifi stuf?!
the nicest mancave i have ever seen
Listing?
@@terriludolf6101Steve… is that you?
@@DarthVader1977autocorrect obviously.
I can understand what you're saying about the strip but I'm not sure that would work. is best approaches to get some 6 mm perspex acrylic, if it's got a frame around the window that it should have, you can attach the perspex with long strips of Blu-tack or double-sided foam tape strips. you can use that foam strip as well to join two pieces together, or if you want a more uniformed unnoticeable joint, a stripper blu tack 3 mm thick squashed. that will stop sound leakage as well going outside or coming in. you could put diffusers as well at the bottom near the floor about 34 inches high. if you need to dampen the bass. very simple get yourself a stretch frame for a painting, woo fleecel is best, or loft installation not fibreglass that's different that's yellow, it's a brownie multi-coloured installation the fibres are friendly. about 300 mm thick put it inside the frame and get a sheet cover it and type up the back, should stand on its own the ideal way tho! is from the windows, find a piece of scrap bit of plank floorboard cut two pieces for each end about 8 long screw to the frame.
It's called "Sprossen" (sprouts) in Germany - maybe also true for the German speaking part of Switzerland.
some glasses are harder and stiffer than normal gyproc on metal framing or even interior wall on wood... in the southern USA, they do not care about isolation... windows are often thinner, and mostly not double or even triple glasses... and for those suggestions about any soft material (Curtains, back rubber curtain, and more funny, curtain with synthetic material as diffuser (as all curtains nowadays are synthetic)... you will muting the sound with no effect on bass, and even less on sub-bass). a good stiff diffuser behind the speakers may improve the sound with blocking to much the joy of having windows.
You could have new windows fitted with the glass area divided into smaller multiple units ,the drum effect would go and the results would look better .
Add wood moulding across the glass to divide it into smaller panes. You would be surprised what you can do with half round doweling and double sided tape.
Put a 15mm thick glass. Done.
Soundproof and bulletproof in one solution!
How bout building a speaker stand with a back plate to put the speaker on? Seems like that would fix the issue that maybe not an issue.
I have windows on the left side of my stereo that runs the full length of the listening room....windows open it just sucks the sound out and gives an unbalance sound....this is why a balance knob is still a necessary thing on integrated amps and preamps....not everyone lives in a soundproof listening room...98% of consumers listening in a living room...this is why no tone controls and no balance controls is just stupid on majority of audio gear.
I have one of my listening rooms like that, I just draw the heavy velvet curtains and the problem goes away
@johnholmes912 I want the natural light and fresh air . I'm not trying to live in a dungeon. I just want a balance knob a basic tone controls....it's hard to even get these basics on gear anymore. All manufacturers think they are competing with top gear for people in dedicated listening rooms and their not....look at the yamaha c5000 preamp. Thisvis the perfect layout minus the phono stage built in. Only it's built to a $10k spec....give me the $3k version bare bones with tone controls and a balance.
Light see through curtains would be less sound absorbing then say heavy black out drapers.
That was a tough one.😅
“Aesthetically” has a “th” in the middle. 👍
Advice? If the listener enjoys his music and has no serious sound anomalies that he can discern, then don't bother fixing something that is not broken! Next to that if reflections are out of control then Paul has a good inexpensive fix with his idea of a diffuser. End of story. Putting stuff in or on the window is a sure fire beginning for divorce procedures :-)
KISS! Get a rubber backed curtain.
No windows and no doors works best, but it’s hard to get in to your listening room.
LOL . . . Yeah but the SOUND is to DIE for :-)
Just buy some curtains
🖤🤔if it's laminated or double glazed.. it will be quite dead.. float glass panels that size sans mullions and/or midrails would be 12mm minimum thickness to meet certification..
♣the days of large wobbly panels of thin glass are long gone.. although some remain in situ that nobody's fallen through and severed both their arms & legs from their unfortunate torso..
I have large sliding glass doors in listening room and they are double glazed. But I’m wondering if replacing with acoustic glass would be better.
Then add wood slats-blinds and also thick curtain.
Does that sound like a decent idea?
My Tannoy Cheviot floor standers (12” drivers) will face away from the sliding glass doors towards the other side of room at a distance of about 2 1/2’ from the glass doors.
Room is 5.60m (18'4") x 5.45m (17'10").
Thanks for reaDing
i have the same situation with him however i have to put a curtain to reduce the sunlight and on day to day have to open some part of it for ventilation. so really not ideal.
Interesting perspective on curtains and the flexibility of the glass pane. I have a sliding walk out window on the left side of my listening area. My area is far from perfect, but I listen to the music, marvel at the sound illusion and consider myself a lucky guy to be able to do these things. I'll worry about more impactful stuff.
Paul's advice here is nonsense. Sorry Paul. If you're having sound impaired it's most likely reflection issues from the window. Try putting some heavy absorber up temporarily eg blanket. If it improves things then investigate room treatment that can stand in front of the window eg GIK panels on stands or good heavily lined curtains, which will look better but cost more.
It would probably be more Optimal, to cover over the window, with double drywall and some insulation between. Large Picture Windows are a major source of Heat Losses. As such, covering over it, would save a lot in Energy Costs.
Personally, Ive heard speakers placed in front of large storefront glass windows, and it didnt negatively impact the sound at all. That said... these were bookshelf speakers, playing at a medium-low volume level... with all front-firing drivers. (and no Subs) Also, this would have been thick Tempered Glass... not the typical thin Plate-Glass, that is often used in standard house windows.
I tend to think that unless you are playing at very high volume levels, and or with powerful Subs... and or are using rear firing drivers... that you would actually notice any issues. Best try it first, and go from there.
I have large sliding glass doors in listening room and they are double glazed. But I’m wondering if replacing with acoustic glass would be better?
Then add wood slats-blinds and also thick curtain.
Does that sound like a decent idea?
My Tannoy Cheviot floor standers (12” drivers) will face away from the sliding glass doors towards the other side of room at a distance of about 2 1/2’ from the glass doors.
Room is 5.60m (18'4") x 5.45m (17'10").
Thanks for reaDing
Again without knowing level of the persons system 500 bucks, 5,000, 50,000 we do not know what he is working with. Is room floor hardwood or carpet? If carpet could replace with thicker pad to helps top resonances some. For window you could take out window and put in a sound deadening type window with much thicker glass that doesn't flex like that. I know Pual says he doesn't like curtains but they do make some sound deadening curtains. Again there are options but they cost thousands of dollars or more. If you have very little money to spend then are going to have to go with cheaper options that are non-optimal but likely better than doing nothing. Goal at that point would be to work towards getting better room for the gear eventually.
Apologies, but terrible advice.
Do nothing to the window, ... just enjoy the system.
You can examine and treat the other walls, employ a handful of best practices, keep things symmetrical laterally, etc.
If you employ treatment, it's vital that it's done in as broadband as possible.
Unless its some outlier case whereby the window is obviously resonating, audibly contaminating playback ... then its fine.
It'll perform like low-pass bass trapping, which is much needed.
It's all good.
🖤sorta depends if you're renting the joint Romeo..😂it could just be an office space..🤣..Danny ~ GR Research ~ No Rez ~ cure all your ills..🥶