I agree, although there are some truer words, such as the Lord's word in John 14:6 for example: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." I know what you meant though. 😁
""Anybody that reads the new testament gospels and say they are mythology, need to learn how to read." No truerer words have been said" Not really. Just because Pontius Pilate was a real person doesn't mean Jesus rose from the dead.
You can tell how people in the US have been fed time and again this narrative that all religions are mythology. It takes a deconstruction of that mindset to realize that most prominent religions in the world today are not based off mythological tales, but are claims about reality and what actually happened.
@@JeezyF Biblical texts are not considered historical sources by respectable historians. It is not used for historical purposes. You can say they are, but you are making an assertion. Please prove that the Bible is a reliable historical source.
Stuart in the background, occasionally squatting for no reason, is the funniest thing I've seen all day. XD Seriously, rewatch the video he's right behind Cliffe. Also this was a really good one Cliffe! You're the best 👍
I always enjoy seeing your videos You really know how to put it in perspective even though people you're talking to at times are disrespectful to you!🙏🏻✝️🤓
Well, he completely failed to answer any of them and a single student managed to drag him through the dirt with a few simple questions. I'm pretty sure they cut out the end, because even the editor noticed, that Cliff wasn't able to actually answer the last question properly and resorted to red herring fallacy. The question wasn't about the theme of the pre-christian religious works being epic poems or anything, but about how belief on it's own without any other evidence is not a better tool to legitimise the validity of biblical sources, than the Odyssey, Norse oral mythology or any other pre-christian mythos. Cliff failed miserably to answer the question, that's why everyone is laughing at him and the editor purposefully cut the footage.
There so many cases that say Nazareth wasn't a real place, so who is Jesus of Nazareth. Got this from google Nazareth is never mentioned in the writings of Josephus, nor is it mentioned in any other first-century writings. Critics also contend that the biblical geography is in error, as there is no cliff near the synagogue to which Jesus was allegedly taken, as recounted in Luke 4:24-30.
There are many who also say New York si not a real place. Nazareth has been excavated. A lot of the so call errors of geography are misinterpretations of the text.
Does the Christian realize that the Old Testament 100% incorporates mythic narrative, and that gospels included details based on their intended purpose to the reader
How did Noah get pairs of all animals including penguins on there. It never said anything about going to Antarctica. Not a non believer but it's a real conflict
none of the historians mentioned here are contemporary. therefore they can not be viewed as eye witnesses. it is troubling that actual historians living at this time mention absolutely nothing about the life, miracles, death or resurrection of jesus. you would think that if all these events took place, historians living at this time would have recorded it.
Not to mention the fact that the Greek word for Christ simply means “anointed one”. So the Suetonius reference could’ve referred to any Jewish messiah in the day, and not exclusively to Jesus.
@@perrishowardthere is a record of his marriage to one named anne hathaway, birth records of his children, a signed will, and authorship of poems and other writings. jesus had none of those things. be careful where you are going with this because i never claimed that jesus did not exist.
@@SuperSglenn we can go wherever with this, i'm just confused on your invalidation of deceased eye witnesses, as if contemporary historians are the only way to prove anything actually happened
@@perrishoward you are trying to put words in my mouth. i never said contemporary historians are the only way to go. who are these deceased eyewitnesses? the epistles of paul are generally recognized as the earliest writings of jesus, yet they mention no miracles and about half of them are suspect to authorship. the synoptic gospels are recognized as written in chronological order as mark, matthew and luke. if read in this order it is clear that much of the latter authors is copied verbatim from the earlier authors.
@@bowlofpeanuts The student said, that the people living in those times believed, that these stories were believed to be true as part of these people's religion, thus it means by Cliff's nonsensical argument a norse saga bears the same legitimacy as anything written in the Bible. Which is true. Belief itself is not an evidence to something's validity, it only says that you are blindly and arbitrarily declared it valid without any other evidence. Cliff downplays the question, berates the opponent and purposefully misanswers the question. And I really like to watch everyone around him smiling at his stupidity. People in ancient Hellas believed, that the Iliad and Odyssey happened. Alexander the Great made a pilgrimage to the alleged tomb of Achilles at the start of his campaign against Persia and bought the alleged shield of Achilles and carried it onward until his death, because he believed Achilles, his divine relative will protect him. The Norse vikings believed in the sagas and the stories and fought fiercely in battle, so when they died, they could enter Valhalla as proud warriors. The only thing what differentiates Cliff's view on biblical and non-biblical mythology is his arbitrary determination, what's based on nothing, but on his blind faith. Which is fine, I'm from a religious family and I have absolutely nothing against religious people. Though I have a problem with idiots like Cliff, who try to use "facts" and "logic", while they have absolutely no idea what the hell are they talking about to convert people.
@@StalkerQtya I'm sure that Cliffe knows that although Nordic or Greek people believed as if their poems were true that they were willing to fight fiercely for it, or undertake pilgrimages for it. It still doesn't verify it's claims. What I think he gets at is the claim that the Gospels are mythology is false, because they are Greco-Roman biographies. And that's what ultimately separates these epic poems and biographies, poems, although believed, doesn't necessarily mean that it's true, characters or places mentioned in the Iliad or Norse saga aren't historical by nature. And even if they are historical, they are pervaded with a great deal of embellishments. In the case of the New Testament, these are biographies with a great deal of historicity, with people such as Herod the Great and Pontius Pilate amongst others that are proven to be historical by means of written accounts and archeological evidence. So at the very least, we can be confident that people such as Jesus and Pontius Pilate, or Saul of Tarsus, are historical figures, while Achilles of Troy or Perseus are not. And so I think it's verifiably wrong to call the gospels mythological.
@@necessaryevil6636 "It still doesn't verify it's claims." It does, because Cliffe demands blind belief. Why would I give him blind belief and not to the other guy, who demands it in the same basis? "What I think he gets at is the claim that the Gospels are mythology is false, because they are Greco-Roman biographies." Same as the Odyssey is a story of Odysseus. We don't exactly know how much is true about the gospels, because the only primary source about the events described in the Gospels are the Gospels themselves. Hack, the very first mention of Jesus from an outside source comes from Josephus Flavius, a romanized jewish historian, nearly a century after his death and he calls him a Wise Man and a Healer, but nothing else. "And even if they are historical, they are pervaded with a great deal of embellishments. " Kind of a shitty double standard ang goalpost moving you are doing here. Like no jewish or christian source is open to historical infallibility and even if pagan sources are historic, they don't count for another reason. "In the case of the New Testament, these are biographies with a great deal of historicity, with people such as Herod the Great..." Herod's character is deeply scrutinized in the gospels and the christian Bible does not really give a complete image of why his rule was contested by the jews, how he became paranoid and openly accuses him with mass infant murder, what he never committed. The Bible never tackles the intricate political situation of the roman client kingdom and Herod's troubled ancestry, what made him basically a foreigner on the judean throne. It's just paints him as a bloody tyrant, while he was one of the greatest kings Judea ever had. "...nd Pontius Pilate..." We don't know that much about Pilate and the Bible doesn't really gives us much ground to stand on. "...written accounts and archeological evidence. " Please, show me the archeological evidence of Jesus actually resurrecting. Because no-one denies the Bible's worth as a historical source and you won't find me questioning that either. I challenge Cliff's retarded rhetoric of posing like some kind of mic-drop superstar who convinces atheists and pagans to fear the lord, while he himself falls into debate fallacies taught to be avoided first year at a university, especially at theology. "So at the very least, we can be confident that people such as Jesus and Pontius Pilate, or Saul of Tarsus, are historical figures, while Achilles of Troy or Perseus are not." We found the ruins of Troy and we have accounts describing Achilles's grave and altar at the site, what was visited by several great people, including Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar. No-one ever described the Tomb of Jesus, only the Gospels. We have actually more evidence about the existence of Achilles, than about Jesus. It doesn't mean Jesus wasn't a real person or Achilles was, but if you want to get into this dick-measuring contest, at least check the numbers first. "And so I think it's verifiably wrong to call the gospels mythological." When a tale includes burning chariots running in the sky, magic babies, angels or a jewish wizard running around and turning water to wine: That's mythology my friend. Sorry to burst your bubble.
@@StalkerQtya I just cannot take you seriously when you say "we have more evidence for Achilles than we have of Jesus". Tell that to the New Testament historians. Confirms to me that you're more of a keyboard warrior with all the ad hoc and you're not someone who I can form a constructive conversation with.
Josephus, Tacitus, et. al. “Romans”, who NEVER met Jesus wrote about WHAT THEY HEARD !! Not what they personally witnessed. Does Cliffe say that ? Nope. So all those “after the fact” reports are just passing along MYTHS.
What’s that supposed to Prove ?? As I’ve explained many times that EYEWITNESS testimony is NOT RELIABLE. And modern Science has PROVEN THAT !! Ask any district attorney, they’d prefer to have DNA evidence because science doesn’t lie like people. And unfortunately all those believers are just insecure morons to believe those myths, supernatural claims, folklore, and especially religions FALSE PROMISES.
I love your videos and agree with you mostly. But when you talk about Genesis not being literal but actually poetic in literary style I couldn’t disagree any more strongly. Genesis was written as an historical account on what actually happened. There is no evidence to support that the days referenced were anymore than a normal 24 hour day. Because if these days were longer and allowed this millions of years argument than that means the Bible is lying. Because it clearly says that man brought death into the world which contradicts the millions of years narrative which says death brought man into the world. Which I think is a dangerous doctrine that’s being taught in our schools at our expense. Atheists need millions of years to allow their God (evolution) to exist. There is no real evidence that supports that nor that Genesis is not historical. I have a lot of evidence but I’m tired of typing.
"Anybody that reads the new testament gospels and say they are mythology, need to learn how to read." No truerer words have been said
I agree, although there are some truer words, such as the Lord's word in John 14:6 for example: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." I know what you meant though. 😁
@@lsubslimed yes yes yes there is always the Lord's word 😝
""Anybody that reads the new testament gospels and say they are mythology, need to learn how to read." No truerer words have been said"
Not really. Just because Pontius Pilate was a real person doesn't mean Jesus rose from the dead.
Boblarson keep reading and digging
@@boblarson7694 bruh
You can tell how people in the US have been fed time and again this narrative that all religions are mythology. It takes a deconstruction of that mindset to realize that most prominent religions in the world today are not based off mythological tales, but are claims about reality and what actually happened.
Jeezy F Nope!
@@joelm6780 strong argument, care to elaborate?
@@JeezyF Biblical texts are not considered historical sources by respectable historians. It is not used for historical purposes. You can say they are, but you are making an assertion. Please prove that the Bible is a reliable historical source.
@@josecollado7960 well, how about the archaeological tests on the BIBLE?
Is greek mythology historical
Shalom be with you Cliffe!!!
JESUS IS LORD!!!
Thanks for another informative video Cliffe. Simple, but effective. Praise Y'shua
Stuart in the background, occasionally squatting for no reason, is the funniest thing I've seen all day. XD Seriously, rewatch the video he's right behind Cliffe.
Also this was a really good one Cliffe! You're the best 👍
Likely been standing a long time.
Proverbs 15:13
A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken.
Very Nice ! Thanks Cliffe !
I always enjoy seeing your videos You really know how to put it in perspective even though people you're talking to at times are disrespectful to you!🙏🏻✝️🤓
Your kidding me, You finished that quick? I would love to have heard the rest! Please upload the rest..I know there is more..must be!
Sam Andrews Chronicles right, I would like to hear Stuart’s response to that idea of the Bible or the Gospels being mythology.
love all these videos ~ thank you for your beautiful ministry~
How can someone learn what Jesus Christ taught and reject Him? This is the spirit of the anti-christ.
Much respect
I think Cliff is slowly going insane answering these same ol questions over and over.
Well, he completely failed to answer any of them and a single student managed to drag him through the dirt with a few simple questions. I'm pretty sure they cut out the end, because even the editor noticed, that Cliff wasn't able to actually answer the last question properly and resorted to red herring fallacy. The question wasn't about the theme of the pre-christian religious works being epic poems or anything, but about how belief on it's own without any other evidence is not a better tool to legitimise the validity of biblical sources, than the Odyssey, Norse oral mythology or any other pre-christian mythos.
Cliff failed miserably to answer the question, that's why everyone is laughing at him and the editor purposefully cut the footage.
@@StalkerQtyaI don’t believe that but ok
@@Jumpo900 Care to elaborate?
@@StalkerQtya well it seems like he answered the question confident and I guess people would think differently but yeah
@@Jumpo900 What did he answered? All I see diverting and falling into a fallacy.
Where is whole video? Anyone got it? Or know title?
Cliffe do you come out to CA?
There so many cases that say Nazareth wasn't a real place, so who is Jesus of Nazareth. Got this from google
Nazareth is never mentioned in the writings of Josephus, nor is it mentioned in any other first-century writings. Critics also contend that the biblical geography is in error, as there is no cliff near the synagogue to which Jesus was allegedly taken, as recounted in Luke 4:24-30.
There are many who also say New York si not a real place. Nazareth has been excavated. A lot of the so call errors of geography are misinterpretations of the text.
Does the Christian realize that the Old Testament 100% incorporates mythic narrative, and that gospels included details based on their intended purpose to the reader
How did Noah get pairs of all animals including penguins on there. It never said anything about going to Antarctica. Not a non believer but it's a real conflict
Awesome
Jesus loves you, turn to Him
Dr. Dryden-Jaffe
Love cliff man
What is the Gomorrah, or however you spell that?
Don’t ask a Protestant for church history 🤷♀️🤷♀️
Science > superstition = true
Science < superstition = false
Simple binary math.
Got science?
What's in your computer?
Are there any nonbelievers who where eyewitnesses to Jesus rising from the dead, like an atheist perhaps? In Jesus days.
If one was a non believer and witnessed, then they'd be a believer surely? And therefore be dismissed in the future
Alangiuroiu there were no atheists back then
none of the historians mentioned here are contemporary. therefore they can not be viewed as eye witnesses. it is troubling that actual historians living at this time mention absolutely nothing about the life, miracles, death or resurrection of jesus. you would think that if all these events took place, historians living at this time would have recorded it.
Not to mention the fact that the Greek word for Christ simply means “anointed one”. So the Suetonius reference could’ve referred to any Jewish messiah in the day, and not exclusively to Jesus.
do you need a contemporary historian to prove to you that Shakespeare existed?
@@perrishowardthere is a record of his marriage to one named anne hathaway, birth records of his children, a signed will, and authorship of poems and other writings. jesus had none of those things. be careful where you are going with this because i never claimed that jesus did not exist.
@@SuperSglenn we can go wherever with this, i'm just confused on your invalidation of deceased eye witnesses, as if contemporary historians are the only way to prove anything actually happened
@@perrishoward you are trying to put words in my mouth. i never said contemporary historians are the only way to go. who are these deceased eyewitnesses? the epistles of paul are generally recognized as the earliest writings of jesus, yet they mention no miracles and about half of them are suspect to authorship. the synoptic gospels are recognized as written in chronological order as mark, matthew and luke. if read in this order it is clear that much of the latter authors is copied verbatim from the earlier authors.
1:48 This is not an answer to his question, mate.
It very much is an answer. You can’t compare mythology to anthology.
@@bowlofpeanuts
The student said, that the people living in those times believed, that these stories were believed to be true as part of these people's religion, thus it means by Cliff's nonsensical argument a norse saga bears the same legitimacy as anything written in the Bible.
Which is true. Belief itself is not an evidence to something's validity, it only says that you are blindly and arbitrarily declared it valid without any other evidence.
Cliff downplays the question, berates the opponent and purposefully misanswers the question. And I really like to watch everyone around him smiling at his stupidity.
People in ancient Hellas believed, that the Iliad and Odyssey happened.
Alexander the Great made a pilgrimage to the alleged tomb of Achilles at the start of his campaign against Persia and bought the alleged shield of Achilles and carried it onward until his death, because he believed Achilles, his divine relative will protect him.
The Norse vikings believed in the sagas and the stories and fought fiercely in battle, so when they died, they could enter Valhalla as proud warriors.
The only thing what differentiates Cliff's view on biblical and non-biblical mythology is his arbitrary determination, what's based on nothing, but on his blind faith.
Which is fine, I'm from a religious family and I have absolutely nothing against religious people.
Though I have a problem with idiots like Cliff, who try to use "facts" and "logic", while they have absolutely no idea what the hell are they talking about to convert people.
@@StalkerQtya I'm sure that Cliffe knows that although Nordic or Greek people believed as if their poems were true that they were willing to fight fiercely for it, or undertake pilgrimages for it. It still doesn't verify it's claims.
What I think he gets at is the claim that the Gospels are mythology is false, because they are Greco-Roman biographies. And that's what ultimately separates these epic poems and biographies, poems, although believed, doesn't necessarily mean that it's true, characters or places mentioned in the Iliad or Norse saga aren't historical by nature. And even if they are historical, they are pervaded with a great deal of embellishments.
In the case of the New Testament, these are biographies with a great deal of historicity, with people such as Herod the Great and Pontius Pilate amongst others that are proven to be historical by means of written accounts and archeological evidence.
So at the very least, we can be confident that people such as Jesus and Pontius Pilate, or Saul of Tarsus, are historical figures, while Achilles of Troy or Perseus are not. And so I think it's verifiably wrong to call the gospels mythological.
@@necessaryevil6636
"It still doesn't verify it's claims."
It does, because Cliffe demands blind belief.
Why would I give him blind belief and not to the other guy, who demands it in the same basis?
"What I think he gets at is the claim that the Gospels are mythology is false, because they are Greco-Roman biographies."
Same as the Odyssey is a story of Odysseus.
We don't exactly know how much is true about the gospels, because the only primary source about the events described in the Gospels are the Gospels themselves.
Hack, the very first mention of Jesus from an outside source comes from Josephus Flavius, a romanized jewish historian, nearly a century after his death and he calls him a Wise Man and a Healer, but nothing else.
"And even if they are historical, they are pervaded with a great deal of embellishments. "
Kind of a shitty double standard ang goalpost moving you are doing here.
Like no jewish or christian source is open to historical infallibility and even if pagan sources are historic, they don't count for another reason.
"In the case of the New Testament, these are biographies with a great deal of historicity, with people such as Herod the Great..."
Herod's character is deeply scrutinized in the gospels and the christian Bible does not really give a complete image of why his rule was contested by the jews, how he became paranoid and openly accuses him with mass infant murder, what he never committed.
The Bible never tackles the intricate political situation of the roman client kingdom and Herod's troubled ancestry, what made him basically a foreigner on the judean throne.
It's just paints him as a bloody tyrant, while he was one of the greatest kings Judea ever had.
"...nd Pontius Pilate..."
We don't know that much about Pilate and the Bible doesn't really gives us much ground to stand on.
"...written accounts and archeological evidence. "
Please, show me the archeological evidence of Jesus actually resurrecting.
Because no-one denies the Bible's worth as a historical source and you won't find me questioning that either.
I challenge Cliff's retarded rhetoric of posing like some kind of mic-drop superstar who convinces atheists and pagans to fear the lord, while he himself falls into debate fallacies taught to be avoided first year at a university, especially at theology.
"So at the very least, we can be confident that people such as Jesus and Pontius Pilate, or Saul of Tarsus, are historical figures, while Achilles of Troy or Perseus are not."
We found the ruins of Troy and we have accounts describing Achilles's grave and altar at the site, what was visited by several great people, including Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar.
No-one ever described the Tomb of Jesus, only the Gospels.
We have actually more evidence about the existence of Achilles, than about Jesus.
It doesn't mean Jesus wasn't a real person or Achilles was, but if you want to get into this dick-measuring contest, at least check the numbers first.
"And so I think it's verifiably wrong to call the gospels mythological."
When a tale includes burning chariots running in the sky, magic babies, angels or a jewish wizard running around and turning water to wine: That's mythology my friend.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
@@StalkerQtya I just cannot take you seriously when you say "we have more evidence for Achilles than we have of Jesus". Tell that to the New Testament historians. Confirms to me that you're more of a keyboard warrior with all the ad hoc and you're not someone who I can form a constructive conversation with.
The Bible is a collection of human writing from Bronze Age Hebrew tribes.
Josephus, Tacitus, et. al. “Romans”, who NEVER met Jesus wrote about WHAT THEY HEARD !! Not what they personally witnessed. Does Cliffe say that ? Nope. So all those “after the fact” reports are just passing along MYTHS.
Cliffe did say that. And If those people were eye witnesses, they would also be believers.
What’s that supposed to Prove ?? As I’ve explained many times that EYEWITNESS testimony is NOT RELIABLE. And modern Science has PROVEN THAT !! Ask any district attorney, they’d prefer to have DNA evidence because science doesn’t lie like people. And unfortunately all those believers are just insecure morons to believe those myths, supernatural claims, folklore, and especially religions FALSE PROMISES.
This is the dictionary definition of gaslighting!
Got science?
What's in your computer?
I love your videos and agree with you mostly. But when you talk about Genesis not being literal but actually poetic in literary style I couldn’t disagree any more strongly. Genesis was written as an historical account on what actually happened. There is no evidence to support that the days referenced were anymore than a normal 24 hour day. Because if these days were longer and allowed this millions of years argument than that means the Bible is lying. Because it clearly says that man brought death into the world which contradicts the millions of years narrative which says death brought man into the world. Which I think is a dangerous doctrine that’s being taught in our schools at our expense. Atheists need millions of years to allow their God (evolution) to exist. There is no real evidence that supports that nor that Genesis is not historical. I have a lot of evidence but I’m tired of typing.
This video prooves that there is no proof that a God exists!
"If God did not exist it would be necessary to invent him" - Voltaire
@phantom.wreath Exactly! God was invented to control people get their money!😢
Doesn’t Voltaire not exist anymore?
@@FlyDog79 he exists in spirit
How exactly