I know this video is old but another great thing about Trip, Shove, Disarm, Grab is that MAP doesn't affect Assurance. So you can use assurance with the 3rd attack Athletics ability against a save you know is low is control the battlefield and maybe waste some of the enemy's actions. This is especially true if you have something like a meteor hammer that can trip with reach. Guaranteed denial of two actions is pretty huge (since they have to stand up which may provoke AoO and then move to you to attack).
Interesting, I didn't notice that. Very interesting...yeah, it says, 10 plus proficiency and nothing else. It specifically says not to add in any penalties. I like that.
@@LegendaryCMD But you also need to note it is only your proficiency, so you do not add you ability modiferes. So it will still be hard to hit with your assurance Athletics, unless the target is lower level, I don't have the math here, but there is plenty of spreadsheets, on Reddit on the subjekt
command an animal is the best option for me. Especially because the animal gains 2 actions and does not use yours MAP. Beastmaster is available for anyone
Great comment. Command animal definitely belongs on this list. Animal companions seem pretty awesome in PF2 so the Beastmaster archetype would be a sweet spin-in for a lot of different classes or builds. All it takes is trained in nature.
So, Shove, Disarm, and Trip all have the 'attack' tag. Meaning they increase and are affected by the multiple attack penalty. They aren't really better things to do than third attacks, they *are* third attacks.
I'd still argue that they might be better than a straight "third attack". If it hits then it will most likely benefit more than just damage. (I do agree that it becomes rather absurd though)
@@HelenCG Nice flex! assurance athletics is a good combo. I like the idea that certain classes can get expert in athletics faster than they can get expert in their weapon. So a 2nd level rogue, for example, could make athletic attacks with the same bonus to hit as the fighter in their party.
The "so obvious I missed it" action reverse of this is for spellcasters. Most spells do NOT have the Attack trait, so if the caster has all 3 actions, don't need to move, and have a weapon ready, the caster can throw out a strike (or attack trait action like trip) with no MAP. Unlike PF1st, spell casters are frequently quite close to most martial classes for +hit (typically only 2 behind from proficiency progressing slower) since they can have the same potency/striking runes on a weapon. || Wonderful vid, shared it with my group to hopefully encourage them to be more clever and less recklessly aggressive. :)
Hey, thanks. I like the melee spell caster idea. A debuff spell like Befuddle might be a good option to soften up your target's AC before you wack them.
One thing to keep in mind when it comes to the interact action is that it has the manipulate trait. Which means it can trigger attacks of oppertunity from creatures that have it. So.. it can be anything from a good to terrible thing to do, depending on the creature.
Great video overall. I disagree on using Shove, Disarm, and Trip. All three are attacks, so they suffer from the multiple attack penalty. Worse yet, all three actions have ugly consequences for rolling a critical failure. And of course a critical failure would be quite likely, when using any of these actions in lieu of a third attack.
You basically should never grapple trip or shove as a third attack. Sure you're more likely to effect the enemy but not by as much as using an agile weapon, the map penalty isn't agile for these maneuvers, and you add a crit fail penalty such as being grappled or knocked prone or flat footed that you wouldn't have from swinging a weapon for damage. And crit fails are probably more likely than successes unless you are an Athletics build
So, did I hear you right that attacking with a two-handed weapon takes 2 attacks to swing once? Also, how are "Reflex DC's" figured? Is it 10 plus their Reflex save plus, so if there Reflex save is +6, then the DC would be 10+6=16? Thnx for these!
Hey Chaplain. No...it doesn't. There was a lot of confusion when I was comparing power attack damages to regular attack damages. A power attack uses two actions to make one attack. So to fairly compare it to a non power attack, you would have to compare it to two regular (non power attack) attacks. Happy holidays! You got it on the reflex DC. It is just 10 plus your reflex score. So if you have a 6 reflex save, your reflex DC would be 16. That may or may not be lower than your target's armor class, making a third attack against either a fort or reflex DC slightly more advantageous, though, probably not much. Maybe 5 or 10 percent better.
I don't understand why people keep talking about Full Attack in 1e as being the go-to strategy. Like 2e, doing more than two attacks was pointless, so in reality the best strategy for 1e was to boost the first as much as possible. Take Fighter as an example. An optimised melee Fighter used a Greatsword with Power Attack and charged for a +2 to hit. With the negatives to hit from PA, nobody in their right mind would be expecting to hit with their third or fourth attacks of a Full Attack action, they just rolled them because they existed and if you rolled a 20 then yay.
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I can’t believe this shows up in my feed now, a month after that Taking20 video and then everyone talking about third action options.
I know this video is old but another great thing about Trip, Shove, Disarm, Grab is that MAP doesn't affect Assurance. So you can use assurance with the 3rd attack Athletics ability against a save you know is low is control the battlefield and maybe waste some of the enemy's actions. This is especially true if you have something like a meteor hammer that can trip with reach. Guaranteed denial of two actions is pretty huge (since they have to stand up which may provoke AoO and then move to you to attack).
Interesting, I didn't notice that. Very interesting...yeah, it says, 10 plus proficiency and nothing else. It specifically says not to add in any penalties. I like that.
@@LegendaryCMD But you also need to note it is only your proficiency, so you do not add you ability modiferes.
So it will still be hard to hit with your assurance Athletics, unless the target is lower level, I don't have the math here, but there is plenty of spreadsheets, on Reddit on the subjekt
command an animal is the best option for me. Especially because the animal gains 2 actions and does not use yours MAP. Beastmaster is available for anyone
Great comment. Command animal definitely belongs on this list. Animal companions seem pretty awesome in PF2 so the Beastmaster archetype would be a sweet spin-in for a lot of different classes or builds. All it takes is trained in nature.
How am I just finding this channel now? Fantastic stuff.
I really appreciate this one. Headed off to my first PFS game in almost two years tomorrow! Nice refresher
So, Shove, Disarm, and Trip all have the 'attack' tag. Meaning they increase and are affected by the multiple attack penalty. They aren't really better things to do than third attacks, they *are* third attacks.
I'd still argue that they might be better than a straight "third attack". If it hits then it will most likely benefit more than just damage. (I do agree that it becomes rather absurd though)
if you take assurance athletics it's a whole different story though. it does not work all the time, but when it works, it's unstoppable
@@HelenCG Nice flex! assurance athletics is a good combo. I like the idea that certain classes can get expert in athletics faster than they can get expert in their weapon. So a 2nd level rogue, for example, could make athletic attacks with the same bonus to hit as the fighter in their party.
I will say that if you’re targeting a save that lower than the monster’s AC, it’s slightly better than a third attack
The "so obvious I missed it" action reverse of this is for spellcasters. Most spells do NOT have the Attack trait, so if the caster has all 3 actions, don't need to move, and have a weapon ready, the caster can throw out a strike (or attack trait action like trip) with no MAP. Unlike PF1st, spell casters are frequently quite close to most martial classes for +hit (typically only 2 behind from proficiency progressing slower) since they can have the same potency/striking runes on a weapon. || Wonderful vid, shared it with my group to hopefully encourage them to be more clever and less recklessly aggressive. :)
Hey, thanks. I like the melee spell caster idea. A debuff spell like Befuddle might be a good option to soften up your target's AC before you wack them.
One thing to keep in mind when it comes to the interact action is that it has the manipulate trait. Which means it can trigger attacks of oppertunity from creatures that have it. So.. it can be anything from a good to terrible thing to do, depending on the creature.
Great video overall. I disagree on using Shove, Disarm, and Trip. All three are attacks, so they suffer from the multiple attack penalty. Worse yet, all three actions have ugly consequences for rolling a critical failure. And of course a critical failure would be quite likely, when using any of these actions in lieu of a third attack.
You basically should never grapple trip or shove as a third attack.
Sure you're more likely to effect the enemy but not by as much as using an agile weapon, the map penalty isn't agile for these maneuvers, and you add a crit fail penalty such as being grappled or knocked prone or flat footed that you wouldn't have from swinging a weapon for damage. And crit fails are probably more likely than successes unless you are an Athletics build
I was considering making a similar video. Would it be ok if I linked this video in my own?
definitely! link away...or don't link, whatever you want. Don't feel obligated. It's about time someone took another crack at this.
An important which is not mentioned here. Frightened also lowers AC and the enemies to hit Bonus!
Why does prone impose a -2 penalty to attack rolls if the only actions you can take when prone are Crawl and Stand?
The only “move” actions are Crawl and Stand. You can still attack.
So, did I hear you right that attacking with a two-handed weapon takes 2 attacks to swing once? Also, how are "Reflex DC's" figured? Is it 10 plus their Reflex save plus, so if there Reflex save is +6, then the DC would be 10+6=16? Thnx for these!
Hey Chaplain. No...it doesn't. There was a lot of confusion when I was comparing power attack damages to regular attack damages. A power attack uses two actions to make one attack. So to fairly compare it to a non power attack, you would have to compare it to two regular (non power attack) attacks. Happy holidays! You got it on the reflex DC. It is just 10 plus your reflex score. So if you have a 6 reflex save, your reflex DC would be 16. That may or may not be lower than your target's armor class, making a third attack against either a fort or reflex DC slightly more advantageous, though, probably not much. Maybe 5 or 10 percent better.
@@LegendaryCMD Thnx! Belated Happy Thanksgiving, and Merry Christmas soon as well!!
whats the app he uses for as battle map?
Tabletop simulator
I don't understand why people keep talking about Full Attack in 1e as being the go-to strategy. Like 2e, doing more than two attacks was pointless, so in reality the best strategy for 1e was to boost the first as much as possible. Take Fighter as an example. An optimised melee Fighter used a Greatsword with Power Attack and charged for a +2 to hit. With the negatives to hit from PA, nobody in their right mind would be expecting to hit with their third or fourth attacks of a Full Attack action, they just rolled them because they existed and if you rolled a 20 then yay.