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For anyone reading this since the Gamemastery Guide released, example 4 has been fully clarified on page 11. "To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They’re undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around, and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. The characters Avoiding Notice still have a significant advantage, since that character needs to spend actions and attempt additional checks in order to find them." Essentially if you roll highest on initiative but the enemies' stealth checks have beaten your perception DC then your character senses that enemies are present (but not exactly where, what enemies they are or how many are present), and can act on that knowledge by seeking, or taking defensive actions without being accused of metagaming.
a similiar thing: like with Linni, as she used her nature check noticing something is off she didn't know, how many or who the enemies are, but she knew that their are at least some and she needs to prepare to fight
The fact that "meta gaming" was ever brought up to begin with is ridiculous and the gms that did such need to lose their god complex. Such an event like that would make sure I never played at that table again. Placing the minis down but then going "you can do nothing" is basically just a "let me get 5 attacks off on you just because I want to" What a joke
@@thomasnewhouse5766 I'm not even a gm and I dislike metagaming. If my character does not know that they are about to be attacked, then I have to play it that way. Separating my knowledge of the game as a player and just being my character makes the game more fun for me. Failing to notice an ambush and starting combat with a huge disadvantage but still coming out on top is alot cooler than my character inexplicably knowing there is danger in the area. And if I end up dying, then well insert "This isn't skyrim" meme here. As far as ambushes go, I prefer for gms to not roll for int until the ambushers attack.
@@LordMephilis I am a GM and I truly dislike metgaming as well. I often use tactics to avoid allowing metagaming to even rear its head. Even when you properly avoid metagaming, like yourself (and props to you), it can still be difficult to completely separate the two. It sucks when you know something is about to happen, but you have to play your character as if they didn't know. It's difficult to make completely unbiased moves. When I was a player, many years ago, I always felt that it cheapened the experience for me when "I" knew things that my character didn't. As a player, I always wanted to be as surprised as my character would be. When I'm about to place ambush scenarios in my sessions, I roll enemy stealth checks prior to the session, and I also roll the players Initiative checks as well. This way, I know how it unfolds before it happens. My players tend to follow the same exportation roles, so I know that some will get a Nature or Stealth roll instead of a Perception roll, etc. If a scenario unfolds, like the example in the video, where a player wins initiative but the enemies are unnoticed, I will play out the first attack with "theatre of the mind", before I put down any map and minis. This way metagaming cant occur, and it's a true surprise for the players. It always works out great for everyone.
In the game mastery guide they explained what would happen in scenario 4. The goblins would be hidden, however they would not be unnoticed, so the player could use the seek action
Exactly. So effectively the “bending the rules” explanation in the video for scenario 4 is actually RAW. See page 11 in the Gamemastery Guide for details.
GMG p.11 RaW only applies to the creature who acts before anyone else in initiative and sees no enemies makes all unnoticed enemies only undetected to themselves. If Goblin goes first and uses delay actio the player going second would not benefit from the rule because how it is written and we come back to the problem. Or if one of the Goblins is seen again no beneift to know there are unnoticed enemies. Thus RaW it is always benefitical to have one player not hide for any encounter. The problem is they use the word Well to implie the following is applied to what was just said which specified creature who acts before anyone make the rule stupid. I prefer to ignore it as it makes no sense and is in direct confict with Avoid Notice rules 😂
I feel like the weirdness about rolling first on initiative but "not being allowed to do anything about it" by RAW in example 4 actually stems from calling for initiative too early. In my mind until a creature actually decides to act, there is no encounter to roll initiative for. In this case it might have been something like the goblins spring the trap and two of them start to move, so two goblins start undetected and unnoticed, but the two that started to move and alerted the party are only undetected. This solves Marisiel not being able to do anything. TL;DR: I believe DM called for initiative too early here, and instead should have waited until the encounter starts.
I like that you can use other skills in place of Perception for Initiative. That example of using Nature is perfect. I think showing this to my players is going to help them with describing what their characters are doing.
On one of the Paizo Friday Twitch streams, I asked the devs if the GameMastery Guide will have more guidelines on how to run things like ambushes and transitioning from exploration to encounter mode and they said "yes."
I would consider using the Perception DC of the group members being ambushed as their initiative for the encounter, since that way they can never react before the creatures that they don't notice (taking for granted that initiative is triggered by the Goblins taking action, so they can't just choose to stay in hiding instead) Though then again, that would fail when a scout activity boosts their initiative by two, and up over the Stealth of a Goblin who hasn't yet gone, leaving us in the same position.
I think the best way to handle a high perception roll against sneaking enemies is the narrative that the character's "sixth sense" triggers, so to speak. That even though they're not aware of any specific presence, they instinctively know something is up, and prepare for combat and maybe warn their partymates as well.
I subscribe to the idea that, whenever an encounter starts, the first person to act must be aware that it is an encounter - it wouldn't be their turn to act otherwise. So for the "you act first, all enemies are in stealth" situation, I would rule that, since the character rolled Perception as their initiative, the reason they are now alert is that they noticed something was off, heard a noise, or were in some other way alerted to the presence of an enemy. They would probably still have to take the Seek action, but this would give them the opportunity to do so with a sound justification and also enable them to call out to their team members something like: "Quiet! I just heard something in those bushes over there!" If it had been a nature check, they might have noticed that those birds which just flew off must have been startled by someone close by. There are many ways to explain how the character is aware of some danger, and it removes the highly frustrating situation where a player feels like their good roll is wasted. And they can, of course, still delay their turn of they want to, but this time they can also shout: "Show yourself!" off into the distance, instead of just awkwardly standing there.
This is one of those topics that is deceptively complex despite its apparent simplicity at first glance, and it is therefore easy to miss some of the subtle nuance in it when first picking up the game (especially when one is used to initiative as handled by other editions). Awesome video, as usual 😊 I tend to be a vical critic but silent in approval, so I’m trying to be more openly supportive of this altruistic task you’ve taken up. Well done. Cheers 🍻 P.S. if requests are still a thing, I would like to request one on all the uses of the crafting skill, and one on runes, etching, and transferring. Thanks 👍🏽
Thanks for the support! Yes, I'm always taking requests and suggestions (matter of fact, I was part-way through making a video on another topic when someone suggested this one and I switched gears). I'm sure I'll do crafting at some point, but not entirely sure when. My next video will be about Delay and Ready. After that, who knows!
Ironically removing the surprise round created the exact problem of having someone go first who can't do anything. I'm a fan of the auto delay, but the player keeps their initiative once they finally act, they move in the turn order after the goblins have revealed themselves. Heck, call it spider sense. Once again you've done a brilliant job, explaining everything in a slow and concise manner. Full marks ( or A+, as you like it)
I would prefer if there is going to be new perception rolls for combat that the hidden enemy gets a turn then do initiative order. Like you’ve succeeded at stealth let them do their stealth attack
I'm like 2 months late, buy to me the last option makes the most narrative sense. Initiative being a perception/wisdom thing implies that it's a test of how quickly your character catches on to the signs of danger that exist. Whether that's two parties openly preparing to fight each other and realizing that everyone else is about to act, or if it's the subtle clues left behind by a prepared ambush, then being perceptive enough to realize something needs to be done should always be rewarded. Your character DOES know they just rolled initiative, in some sense, and they should take advantage of that by using their actions to seek and tip off their allies to mitigate the first round advantage of the would be ambushers. I've found this to be the fairest and most accepted application whether my players are the ambushed or the ambushers
@@gman1515 Your explanation of the way you do it makes perfect sense. In the situation described in the video, Merisiel was informed that the road was likely to have bandits, and told the GM that she was keeping a watchful eye out for danger. In this case i would say that rules as written, she continues to do what she was prior to rolling initiative, which is using the Seek action to find any dangerous enemies, and moving along the road. I would allow the player to decide which combination and how fast they were moving, but would recommend that those two actions make up her turn.
17:50: Small clarification for newcomers : No "crit" happened, as these in P2e only occur in relationship to a DC and this is initiative. One must be careful when using common old terms because it drags assumptions.
You did an amazing job here and I learnt a lot. However, I would have loved to see a mixed result explained where one goblin failed its stealth check and then you had an opportunity to see a player decide to explain to fellow party members where they think they see one goblin and also what happens if they then walked into that area and perhaps could observe only 1 of the 3 or 4 goblins in the area. Is there a risk of being hit by an AOO of they passed two goblins still unnoticed as they head in to attack one they had observed.
Wow! Great breakdown! I’m sharing your channel with my players and GMs (I run an after-school Pathfinder program at a middle school). Oh, and *subscribed*!
Example 4 - she noticed something was wrong with the foliage, or birds were quiet. That’s the point of the nature check. She doesn’t know there’s an enemy yet, but she sure knows there’s a problem.
Although I play PF 1E, I still find this information very useful in my gameplay as a DM. Up until about 7 yrs ago I was using the AD&D 2nd Edition. PF is so much more defined and organized, I can't believe I didn't use it earlier. As such, however, I am not as well versed with PF that I would like to be. With Covid I just did not have the players. I have only found out about VTT's recently (the last 2 yrs), that required me to not only learn the ruleset of PF but also the VTT as well, (I use FGU), and that cut into play time severely. Your course is really great, it helps clarify the difference between game sets and there are so many I can't count them. These are so worthwhile, thank you so much for taking the time to do them. Sincerely. 👀
I watched a actual play from the DM Lair and he rolled everything first including the PC's initiatives. It went really well in my opinion. Watching everybody at the table react to monsters as they began to cast spells and pop out from hiding locations. so even if the PC's did roll there initiative first they weren't told.
In the last example, I would be tempted to "assume" that the character with the initiative that beat the stealth of the ambushers would delay and simply place them after the first acting ambusher.
In the same vein, my solution is to just up the first creature's initiative to just above the first player's. That way, it's basically as if the player delayed a bit, but without changing their dice.
Genesys has a similar issue with ambushes. I've always ruled it that initiative is representative of your character's reaction time. Because you cant react without something to react too, one ambusher always gets an action to trigger initiative.
Seems to me that if you are Searching in exploration mode, that it is functionally the same as Seeking in encounter mode. I'd allow the elf that won the initiative to make a Seek roll on that basis. Taking the goblins from Undetected to Hidden. Then she can do the Point Out action, leaving her one action to get to cover.
Scenario 4 is why I have a dice roller app. I know my players bonuses so I do the rolls on my phone so they don't even know i'm rolling in this particular scenario. Then I can play it out correctly and my players are just as surprised as their characters. "As you walk, you notice it's too quiet. The sounds of birds and bugs have stopped and you can see some underbrush has been disturbed around you. Someone is here, though you don't know who, how many, or why they are concealing themselves." The fact that they would have to roll initiative means that they already know there's some sort of encounter. I'm just careful to make sure they don't know what the scenario is about. Maybe its a traveling troupe who is paranoid so they hide? Make sure you have those encounters so they cant just always assume its gonna be a fight.
Yeah, for Example #4 I always tell my players that they have a bad feeling about the next room or they have a sneaking suspicion that something is amiss. Gives them a chance to seek or ready an action and they get to feel cool because they turn the ambush around on the enemies.
The question of what to do when a player has higher initiative then a the monsters they don't know are there is an interesting dilemma. Though I haven't run Pathfinder 2e, I find a good answer in my experience is to not call infinitive until the presence of a threat is made known, similar to your suggestions of describing just enough to suggest the character knows they might be in danger. Just felt like agreeing with you in comment for some reason.
The part I have the biggest issue with here is in this example 1. We are concealed and see some enemies and have a clear line of site. The enemies are completely unaware 2. I cast a somatic spell to hit their leader. 3. My equally concealed friend was going to throw a fire bomb right as my spell hit In the rules as written everyone will role initiative and if I role bad ill go last even though I was going to cast a spell silently from the shadows against an unaware enemy and 2 enemies get to go before my friend. Because of the lack of a surprise round, our awesome planned out joint attack cant happen. The way I think it should be is we hold our actions (what we had planned) and when we all role initiative, as written, all held actions trigger and then combat proceeds as normal. The way its written now just doesn't seem natural...
The issue I have with asking for an initiative roll before the ambushing monsters spring their attack is that it ruins the suspense and drama of the ambush. The players all know OOC that something is about to happen at that point. Sure, we might say that from a game mechanics standpoint it works better RAW, but it sure ruins the experience of the ambush.
I guess the other option is that she twigs onto the Druid's reaction almost before it is obvious. I think saying "your perception roll is higher than the stealth, so you get the idea something is off" is a good option
In scenario 4 If goblins were succesfull in stealth checks you can't start the encounter unless GM orders one of them made an attack. In that case all do their initiative rolls and Rogue would have an observed goblin to attack. Scenario 4 is imposibble scenario if you follow the rules in the example 2.
I appreciate this video although For example 4 though that's a case of Initiative being called too early As a gm I cant say I haven't done it myself but Initiative should really only be used for two things time sensitive cases and fights. Especially since most players once Initiative is called fly into a fight or die mindset.
about example 4 we played a small group, like 2 players and some NPCs, we come into a small room with a well inside. on top of the water from the well, their was a statue, we rolled at the start or so our initive (or like I used my seek action determine my initiv for the "encounter" our GM onlly said, their is a statue and on the edges, their were some pressure plates or so, one edge was broken it was online, so that it was a encounter, was quite hard to hide, but instead of giving us any enemy, we could explore and look around then, as someone steps on the plates, the statue starts to move around itself and the "encounter" starts, with a damm hard trap as an enemy xD
The problem with using the delay action is that Marisa doesn't know anything is up, so delaying is still reacting to information the character doesn't have but the player does (ie initiative was rolled.) I've found the best middle ground is that the character has a 'bad feeling' but doesn't know what's up. Then allow the character to react on that 'bad feeling.' Whether that be holding, seeking, or tossing up some sort of defence/support spell if the character is the type to react that way. As much as I'm liking 2e, I find the lack of surprise round to be a down side of the edition.
This has caused a lot of problems in our games. One example. Goblin had a captive hostage and threatening to kill her on an ledge 10' above us. Diplomacy was a standoff but the party didn't want to provoke the situation. One character said, "Screw it, I'm going for the rope to climb up and get the goblin." Roll Initiative. The person who said she was going for the rope went last in order. The Goblin went first and attacked the hostage Other party member fired arrows There was some recriminations about who started the fight When it came to the player who first said she was going for the rope to climb it, instead said that she was going to use Diplomacy to de-escalate the situation and was able to claim the moral high ground in the group because she tried to diffuse the situation when everyone else attacked. In the Post fight discussion the person who invoked the initiative role said she didn't do anything (which was true) and that the others attacked AFTER the Goblin attacked. This has happened more than once.
i wouldnt roll initiative until the player who rolled good enough nature check would feel something is out of the ordinary when the birds flew from that one spot, and they actually try to find out what happens
In the 2nd example, I thought when using the Avoid Notice exploration activity, you have to make a stealth check to see if enemies notice you, then if you want to ambush, roll initiative using stealth for both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you after initiative is rolled
Everyone on the official forums is telling me you don't re-roll and the first roll when the players enter the general area of the goblins is used for initiative too. That said, I haven't seen anyone official chime in and by a strict reading of the rules, it sounds like you're correct and another Stealth check would be called for. I hesitate, though, to take this video down and replace it with a corrected version just due to the overwhelming number of people insisting that it's only one roll, not two. I'm going to keep bugging people and hope to find an official response (maybe this will come up in Knights of Everflame). I'd hate to replace the video just to later learn the masses were correct all along.
Basics4Gamers Please report back on this one. Maybe create a short follow up video. This topic is a big deal to a lot of players and GMs. Thanks so much for taking on this huge task of educating us about the subtleties of PF2e.
@@r2roberts The GameMastery Guide confirms that you roll Stealth for your initiative and that total is also used to determine if you are noticed or not. One roll, not 2.
I was under the assumption that if someone rolls stealth for perception and someone else rolls perception than, if a player beats that stealth with its perception you also see it. This makes much more sense. You go before your enemy because you spotted it. It flows much more naturally/logically. So I was surprised when you said something else is how the rules are written. Because as you pointed out this leads to weird scenarios. Not sure what to do with this. I am considering just doing as I mentioned it myself, but the fact that it is indeed not RAW bothers me a bit. Hopefully more will be explained in the GMG as someone else pointed out.
I agree, it's a bit counter-intuitive by RAW. And it's a rule that I think is very, very open for GMs to interpret things their own way. But, for whatever it may be worth, there are two reasons why I don't like using the same Perception roll for both Initiative and to spot a sneaking enemy. First, the game really seems to be designed to not have rolls be absolutely contested by other rolls, and instead rolls are contested by DCs. Having a Stealth roll be contested by a Perception roll (but only when that Perception roll is also used for initiative) may be a precedent that causes further confusion down the line. And the other reason I don't prefer to do that is it takes away the importance of the original Stealth Check. Look at it from a player's point of view. If their Stealth Check beats their opponent's Perception DC, they feel as if they have earned the right to not be noticed until they strike. If that instantly gets overturned by the Initiative roll, it not only takes away all significance of beating the Perception DC, but I think that would be less fun for the player.
@@HowItsPlayed I think intent is the key factor on that. If the ambush is for immediately jumping out and attacking it should all be rolled together (stealth and perception for init checks). Then proceed with combat. If the intent is to hide or jump out and start talking then it's just Stealth vs Perception DC's and hold off on init until someone's intent changes to combat.
So what happens if one of the goblins fails their initial stealth check to avoid notice? Are they hidden or observed? And would they get to roll perception in the event that combat begins?
First off, thanks for posting as I found this extremely clear and helpful. Still, I hesitate to roll all the goblins' Stealth checks individually, because what if it is a warband of 20 goblins, nearly all of them are behind complete cover? Someone is bound to catch the party's attention, roll a natural 1, etc. I'm inclined to do a single roll for all enemies lying in ambush, using the lowest Stealth modifier or some average...
it will take a long time rolling all these. But good luck hiding 20 goblins without a single one of them blowing their cover. Alternatively, you could give them assurance?
You could roll them in groups. For example, ambushers on two sides of the road, roll two dice. But, there's a Moon Moon in every group. imgur.com/r/moonmoon/A0TXiuZ
Excellent video. Thanks. But I'm having difficulty confirming all of this in the Core Rulebook. Can you (or anyone) please list the relevant sections and page numbers? I'd like to point out to others in my group where exactly this information is in the CRB. My GM and other players seem to think that surprise must not be a thing in PF2. Obviously it is.
It's true that there is no such thing as a "Surprise Round" such as those found in PF 1st Edition and D&D. Instead, a sneaking player uses their Stealth skill for initiative, which gives them an edge in going first in the initiative order... which kind of gives the same effect as having a Surprise Round. Is there a particular rule you're wanting to support? The first half of the video (before the examples) provides page numbers for the relevant parts in the lower-left of the screen.
@@HowItsPlayed I see I've made the mistake of not watching your previous videos in their entirety. It's all the different conditions, such as Observed, Concealed, Undetected, Unnoticed, Invisible, and the visibility factors of Bright Light, Dim Light, and Darkness. All of that is dicussed separately in the book from the sections on Initiative. I don't see Surprise being explained completely in any one section of the CRB they way you bring it all together in your video. I don't have the book with me now. I'll look at it this weekend. And I'm going to watch your entire set of related videos. I'm so glad you're making them.
What happens if any of the goblins fail, the stealth check? Do all of them get revealed or just the single one? I can homebrew or come up with something based on my intuition but I feel like the rules should cover this.
In Example 3, at 15:30, you mention the fourth goblin couldn't be attacked directly because it is Undetected. Wouldn't it actually be Undetected and Unnoticed? Similarly, I'm a bit confused as to why at 13:48 all 4 goblins immediately transition from 'Undetected & Unnoticed' to just Undetected. Wouldn't the party still be wholly unaware of how many goblins there were, or even their general location, until each individual one had a turn and attacked (thus making its presence known). (Thanks so much for this video!)
Ah ok, maybe this is due to the phrasing on GMG p11, which seems to state that as long as the encounter has begun, even if all of the enemies' Stealth rolls beat the players Perception, they are only Undetected (but not Unnoticed). Going by that then it would also sound like it is impossible to use Stealth to begin an encounter Unnoticed? At best, you'd be Undetected?
@@hexplorerapp Basically, "Unnoticed" means you can't even suspect that a creature might be present. Once something occurs that would allow a reasonable person to have a suspicion of danger, then everyone loses "Unnoticed".
@@HowItsPlayed Do you always tell players how many creatures are in the initiative? The ruling is absolutely broken in sense it brakes several things about stealth in Pathfinder 2e and I'm not joking here. PF2e GMG Page 11: "So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled highest still knows someone is around, and can start moving about, Skeeing, and otherwise preparing to fight." 1) You contradict the ruling if you refuse to tell the players how many creatures there are who are unnoticed. Because the moment you rolled initiative for them is the moment you must declare how many creatures there are. They can't be unnoticed and if they are not unnoticed you then know they are around and if you know they are around you can just count how many there are! Do you understand how stupid this is? 2) If players see four Kobolds on camp fire and initiative is rolled you probably wont tell the players about the 7 Kobolds close by using Avoide Notice but because players move First the Kobolds are only undetected and as previously pointed out if players don't know that there is someone they are unnoticed but the ruling just removed unnoticed you as DM M U S T tell the players there are 7 creatures hiding somewhere. 3) Players want to sneak in to a Castle but the Guard is standing watch. They can't throw rocks to distract because that would cause players to enter in encounter mode to roll initiative to roll stealth to get to the door and to roll thievery to open the lock and enter the house before the guard comes back. BUT because we rolled initiative the Guard now knows there are FOUR creatures close by, logically he would immediately blow on his horn to cause a Alarm. 4) When Guard blows on horn to cause an Alarm any Guard who hears it is now added to the initiative running towards the combat and there fore because we rolled initiative and the Guard went first the guards know there are 4 creatures and players know there is 1 Guard and 27 Creatures in this combat. Do you understand why the ruling of removing unnoticed is ruining the game here? You are unable to perform some task in encounter mode which might require encounter mode instead of exploration mode because we must go round by round rules as the task is so high! The only thing this rule is doing is making Stealth harder and literally driving the players to murder every guard on the courtyard! This is the same problems as saying in D&D 5e that rolling 1 on stealth is critical failure which so far has ruined every single stealth mission the players have tried to do between different DMs because SOMEONE rolls 1 and they are seen. Only reason the fake letter worked was because the guards saw same person running three times past them and that was just confusing so basically "benny hill music here" 5) Rogue rolls initiative with the party and wishes to be unnoticed so he can sneak behind the BBEG and free the Princess but Rules as Written now that is impossible because the BBEG says "Show your selves or else I cut her" and next round the princess is dead and ritual is started 👏 WELL DONE! and I could keep going but I think A4 with Dyslexia and ADHD is enough rambling. Thus we come back to the question: Do you tell players how many hidden creatures there are in every single combat? DO YOU TELL PLAYERS HOW MANY HIDDEN CREATURES THERE ARE IN EVERY SINGLE COMBAT?!?? It is an important question!
If I was GM, there's a good chance I would've skipped the rouge's turn until the beginning of next round when somebody jumps out. But I would most likely give her a "bad feeling".
Don't know if I've got it wrong but in example 1 your first bullet point says, 'Players should describe their actions while in encounter mode. This may determine what they roll for initiative.' Shouldn't that be 'exploration mode'?
Initiative is for some reason confusing, first it says you roll your perception but here its only a +2? But the perception I have at lvl 9 is a +16 with a +2 bonus from a battlefield surveyor, Do I roll d20+18 or still only do d20+2? And if its the latter why would it say to roll perception if you don't even add the skill to it?
You roll 1d20 plus your perception bonus, so you would roll +18. The goblins have Perception bonuses of +2... you're a 9th level character with master proficiency in Perception, and they are level -1 creatures with untrained proficiency.
I think they went this way in 2nd edition just to speed up the process a tiny bit. And, IIRC, someplace they do suggest using ability mods as a tiebreaker between players... it's just not a hard and fast rule.
I disagree that seek when initiative is rolled is metagaming. Initiative is how fast PC spots danger and is able to react on that. So if the character rolled, as in example 4, high and sees no enemies, that means that he detected the danger (somehow - it is up to DM to describe), but doesn’t see any specific enemy, which is perfect time to start seeking for enemies or prepare a reaction.
I'm sure eventually I'll get to videos for specific classes, but for now I'm trying to hit the major topics that everyone could benefit from. That said, I've already done videos on stealth, surprise, traps and the Thievery skills... so in some ways I've already covered a lot of core Rogue topics.
I made those within the authoring tool. But here are a couple other places online that may work too: thefatefulforce.com/battle-resources/token-creator/ rolladvantage.com/tokenstamp/
For the character that was at the top of the initiative with perception, I tell them what there perception would normally do, like you hear the sound of a bowstring being pulled back, what do you do? This is not bending the rules, BTW.
@@HowItsPlayed Couldn't the enemies then delay their actions in such a way that they are all in one initative block? The players could probably also use their delay actions to break up the block but I just think if the delay train starts rolling it is going to lead to something unpleasant for everyone.
When they all rolled initiative but the rogue didn't know combat started, it sounds like the GM shouldn't have made them roll since nothing was happening. I have only GMed for 5e, but we usually don't start combat until something is actually attacking in some way.
That presents its own problem. The rogue _wants_ initiative before they attack because they would get the benefit of Surprise Attack, and getting to use Stealth+cover for their initiative. If you wait until after they move in and attack they would get a single attack with no sneak attack added damage, and they'd roll perception initiative possibly getting extremely low- wasting all that planning and sneaking they did up to this point.
@@FormerRuling I didn't mean that they actually roll an attack before initiative. I meant that I usually don't have them roll initiative until an attack is intended, like they make ready to attack. Then we start combat based on their initiative roll. It seems in Pathfinder, as soon as enemies are aware of you they just start initiative. It makes sense for most aggressive monsters I suppose. I just like to give my players the chance to at least attempt talking their way out of a fight before just rolling for combat.
@@MrRJPE initiative wasn't rolled when they saw the party though. In the first example some secret rolls happened and they passed without the players ever rolling initiative or even realizing anything was there. The initiative was only rolled when the Goblins intended to ambush and attack the party.
The order is: -Goblin is undetected and wants to jump out and attack. - Init is called and party rolls. Goblin doesn't roll and gets to use his already super high stealth check as his init. - If party rolls low everything goes as planned he jumps out, becoming observed, and gets Surprise Attack to deal big damage with a sneak attack. - if party rolls high they spend an awkward turn most likely delaying their turn and volunteering to lower their own init. You lose the sneak but are most likely the top in init still and are still undetected.
Instant Houserule against that stupid initiative-suprise-stuff (I find it stupid. If you dont, have fun :3 Because we are here to have fun. You dont have fun my way ^^). When you win your stealth-check you act once and then initiative rolls. Done. For us. Stay crunchy.
In your first example with the Goblins who just want to get across the road... Why should the PCs get "free" Seek actions to try to spot the Goblins? The Goblins didn't perform the Hide action "in front of" the PCs. (Your previous video on Stealth showed previously undetected and unnoticed characters ignored by passersby without a roll.) It seems to me that the PCs should only get "free" Seek actions if they are using the Search or maybe Scout Exploration Activity.
I'm not entirely sure I follow what you're referencing by "free Seek action", but in that example the goblins are using the Avoid Notice exploration activity, which calls for a Stealth Check to be rolled. I believe the DC that determines success or failure of that roll is the Perception DC of each creature that comes within perceiving distance of the creature using Avoid Notice.
@@HowItsPlayed I hadn't thought of the Goblins as performing Avoid Notice. That's a very good point. How do you then reconcile the scene at 20:13 in Basics of Stealth? BTW, the guard was using the Search Exploration at 19:37 not Seeking, correct? It was during Exploration, not Encounter.
I made that video from the perspective of it being Encounter Mode. The passing guard would roll his check as he passed because it was his turn. The passing students would not have rolled a Perception Check because they were not using the Seek action. Merisiel did not roll a Stealth Check when either of them passed because it wasn't her turn.
Basics4Gamers I guess that’s why, in Exploration Mode, I would have the Goblins be undetected and unnoticed, almost like a Hazard with a Trained Stealth DC, and PCs using the Search or Scout activities would have a Seek roll against the Goblins’ Stealth DCs. If they were in some other Exploration activity I would have them pass unawares. The reason I’m a bit concerned about having the Goblins roll a Hide roll is that the PCs were not in the area when the Goblins hid themselves. Also since they aren’t moving I wouldn’t use Sneak either. Unless staying hidden is part of the Sneak action. That’s not how I read the rule.
Quick correction Example #3, ~12:00, it should be a survival check, not nature. The names are confusing, but nature is about animals, survival is about the wilderness. Nature You know a great deal about the natural world, and you command and train animals and magical beasts. Even if you’re untrained in Nature, you can use it to Recall Knowledge. Survival You are adept at living in the wilderness, foraging for food and building shelter, and with training you discover the secrets of tracking and hiding your trail. Even if you’re untrained, you can still use Survival to Subsist.
M rolled high perception. At that time it is more than reasonable to say "Your character feels something's afoot. She e is not yet aware of its exact nature." Was it bushes moving, the lack of bird songs, whispers in the woods, just a creepy sensation they are being observed? Doesn't matter narrate it or not but let the character that was best at perceiving danger at that moment act for god damn sake. Delaying is perfectly viable but acting on a hunch is as well.
Example 4 shows the many places where Paizo didn't think through Pathfinder 2. Liny observed something as it was her perception that she used passively.
Rewarding her for the high initiative roll is punishing the goblins. In fact they should be rewarded for beating their passive perception. But they are NPCs, they dont need to be rewarded. Imagine the situation was reversed. Imagine the players were playing the goblins and the npcs were the adventurers. Imagine how the players would feel if their carefully crafted ambush which should be succesful since they were well hidden, would be suddenly ruined because the npcs rolled a high initiative. You even said that it actually makes sense that the ambush not be ruined. This is the core problem with this. This is why the surprise round made sense. While I agree with your video, I dont think it makes a good game design. It makes ambush tactics really weak.
Winning ties automatically going to the DM is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of in regards to stealth. It is a DC check. not a contest, as such you MEETING their check means you pass their dc.
Ive been trying to learn the system slowly as dnd 5e seems to be capping off... I like the concept of combat.. I dont like initiative with skills. It feels like an attempt to add order to out of combat actions.. It ruins the element of surprise and exhaust players before the encounter... I'll keep listening, I may be just over complicating things in my head..
"The less thing you have to roll in front of the players, behind your screen, the better" I disagree. Have you *seen* the face players make when you roll a bunch of dice and the players have no idea why you just did that?
... What's the point of the video, since you have no idea how it works in example 4? I was didn't need your video to have no idea how this example works.
..He does know how it works though? He explains the rules by RAW, then gives some better alternatives since the rules don't really provide a good solution to the problem in example 4. The second alternative he mentions has now become official I think, someone mentioned that Paizo later made it so that the player would realize something is up.
@@Geffro no, he doesn't explain the rule by raw. He explains whet some DM he knows would do. He doesn't explain what Merisiel can do by raw. The second alternative is often refered as "everyone has spider sense" on the official forum, and I'm quite sure it's not an official rule. And if you don't understand why it's called "spider sense", let's twik the situation a bit: the goblins want to flank the PCs, so they are waiting until the PCs to be between them before they reveal themselves. So after Merisiel acts, Goblin 1 stays hidden. Now Lini gets to act, but she's in the same situation as Merisiel: it's her turn but she notices no one. Her spider-sense tingles, and she knows something is wrong. And it's the same for every PC.
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For anyone reading this since the Gamemastery Guide released, example 4 has been fully clarified on page 11.
"To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They’re undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around, and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. The characters Avoiding Notice still have a significant advantage, since that character needs to spend actions and attempt additional checks in order to find them."
Essentially if you roll highest on initiative but the enemies' stealth checks have beaten your perception DC then your character senses that enemies are present (but not exactly where, what enemies they are or how many are present), and can act on that knowledge by seeking, or taking defensive actions without being accused of metagaming.
a similiar thing: like with Linni, as she used her nature check noticing something is off
she didn't know, how many or who the enemies are, but she knew that their are at least some and she needs to prepare to fight
The fact that "meta gaming" was ever brought up to begin with is ridiculous and the gms that did such need to lose their god complex. Such an event like that would make sure I never played at that table again. Placing the minis down but then going "you can do nothing" is basically just a "let me get 5 attacks off on you just because I want to" What a joke
@@thomasnewhouse5766 good point. I mean soon as you call for Initiative before any Unnoticed Creature has even acted is in it self meta gaming.
@@thomasnewhouse5766 I'm not even a gm and I dislike metagaming. If my character does not know that they are about to be attacked, then I have to play it that way. Separating my knowledge of the game as a player and just being my character makes the game more fun for me. Failing to notice an ambush and starting combat with a huge disadvantage but still coming out on top is alot cooler than my character inexplicably knowing there is danger in the area. And if I end up dying, then well insert "This isn't skyrim" meme here.
As far as ambushes go, I prefer for gms to not roll for int until the ambushers attack.
@@LordMephilis I am a GM and I truly dislike metgaming as well. I often use tactics to avoid allowing metagaming to even rear its head. Even when you properly avoid metagaming, like yourself (and props to you), it can still be difficult to completely separate the two. It sucks when you know something is about to happen, but you have to play your character as if they didn't know. It's difficult to make completely unbiased moves. When I was a player, many years ago, I always felt that it cheapened the experience for me when "I" knew things that my character didn't. As a player, I always wanted to be as surprised as my character would be.
When I'm about to place ambush scenarios in my sessions, I roll enemy stealth checks prior to the session, and I also roll the players Initiative checks as well. This way, I know how it unfolds before it happens. My players tend to follow the same exportation roles, so I know that some will get a Nature or Stealth roll instead of a Perception roll, etc.
If a scenario unfolds, like the example in the video, where a player wins initiative but the enemies are unnoticed, I will play out the first attack with "theatre of the mind", before I put down any map and minis. This way metagaming cant occur, and it's a true surprise for the players. It always works out great for everyone.
In the game mastery guide they explained what would happen in scenario 4. The goblins would be hidden, however they would not be unnoticed, so the player could use the seek action
Exactly. So effectively the “bending the rules” explanation in the video for scenario 4 is actually RAW. See page 11 in the Gamemastery Guide for details.
GMG p.11 RaW only applies to the creature who acts before anyone else in initiative and sees no enemies makes all unnoticed enemies only undetected to themselves.
If Goblin goes first and uses delay actio the player going second would not benefit from the rule because how it is written and we come back to the problem.
Or if one of the Goblins is seen again no beneift to know there are unnoticed enemies. Thus RaW it is always benefitical to have one player not hide for any encounter.
The problem is they use the word Well to implie the following is applied to what was just said which specified creature who acts before anyone make the rule stupid. I prefer to ignore it as it makes no sense and is in direct confict with Avoid Notice rules 😂
I love how descriptive and in-depth these videos are. You covered everything I could've been confused about.
Thanks! I'm glad the videos are helping.
I feel like the weirdness about rolling first on initiative but "not being allowed to do anything about it" by RAW in example 4 actually stems from calling for initiative too early. In my mind until a creature actually decides to act, there is no encounter to roll initiative for. In this case it might have been something like the goblins spring the trap and two of them start to move, so two goblins start undetected and unnoticed, but the two that started to move and alerted the party are only undetected. This solves Marisiel not being able to do anything.
TL;DR: I believe DM called for initiative too early here, and instead should have waited until the encounter starts.
I like that you can use other skills in place of Perception for Initiative. That example of using Nature is perfect. I think showing this to my players is going to help them with describing what their characters are doing.
On one of the Paizo Friday Twitch streams, I asked the devs if the GameMastery Guide will have more guidelines on how to run things like ambushes and transitioning from exploration to encounter mode and they said "yes."
Good to know, I've been wondering that. Thanks for sharing!
I fear the amount of Update Videos I will need to make after that book comes out. LOL
Thank God
@@HowItsPlayed Job security
I would consider using the Perception DC of the group members being ambushed as their initiative for the encounter, since that way they can never react before the creatures that they don't notice (taking for granted that initiative is triggered by the Goblins taking action, so they can't just choose to stay in hiding instead)
Though then again, that would fail when a scout activity boosts their initiative by two, and up over the Stealth of a Goblin who hasn't yet gone, leaving us in the same position.
I think the best way to handle a high perception roll against sneaking enemies is the narrative that the character's "sixth sense" triggers, so to speak. That even though they're not aware of any specific presence, they instinctively know something is up, and prepare for combat and maybe warn their partymates as well.
I subscribe to the idea that, whenever an encounter starts, the first person to act must be aware that it is an encounter - it wouldn't be their turn to act otherwise.
So for the "you act first, all enemies are in stealth" situation, I would rule that, since the character rolled Perception as their initiative, the reason they are now alert is that they noticed something was off, heard a noise, or were in some other way alerted to the presence of an enemy. They would probably still have to take the Seek action, but this would give them the opportunity to do so with a sound justification and also enable them to call out to their team members something like: "Quiet! I just heard something in those bushes over there!"
If it had been a nature check, they might have noticed that those birds which just flew off must have been startled by someone close by. There are many ways to explain how the character is aware of some danger, and it removes the highly frustrating situation where a player feels like their good roll is wasted.
And they can, of course, still delay their turn of they want to, but this time they can also shout: "Show yourself!" off into the distance, instead of just awkwardly standing there.
This is one of those topics that is deceptively complex despite its apparent simplicity at first glance, and it is therefore easy to miss some of the subtle nuance in it when first picking up the game (especially when one is used to initiative as handled by other editions). Awesome video, as usual 😊 I tend to be a vical critic but silent in approval, so I’m trying to be more openly supportive of this altruistic task you’ve taken up. Well done. Cheers 🍻
P.S. if requests are still a thing, I would like to request one on all the uses of the crafting skill, and one on runes, etching, and transferring. Thanks 👍🏽
Thanks for the support! Yes, I'm always taking requests and suggestions (matter of fact, I was part-way through making a video on another topic when someone suggested this one and I switched gears). I'm sure I'll do crafting at some point, but not entirely sure when. My next video will be about Delay and Ready. After that, who knows!
Ironically removing the surprise round created the exact problem of having someone go first who can't do anything.
I'm a fan of the auto delay, but the player keeps their initiative once they finally act, they move in the turn order after the goblins have revealed themselves. Heck, call it spider sense.
Once again you've done a brilliant job, explaining everything in a slow and concise manner. Full marks ( or A+, as you like it)
Thanks!
I would prefer if there is going to be new perception rolls for combat that the hidden enemy gets a turn then do initiative order. Like you’ve succeeded at stealth let them do their stealth attack
Sounds like you're a GCP fan with the "roll-ricka-roll roll for initiative"
I definitely support the last option for surprise rounds.
Me too!
I'm like 2 months late, buy to me the last option makes the most narrative sense. Initiative being a perception/wisdom thing implies that it's a test of how quickly your character catches on to the signs of danger that exist. Whether that's two parties openly preparing to fight each other and realizing that everyone else is about to act, or if it's the subtle clues left behind by a prepared ambush, then being perceptive enough to realize something needs to be done should always be rewarded. Your character DOES know they just rolled initiative, in some sense, and they should take advantage of that by using their actions to seek and tip off their allies to mitigate the first round advantage of the would be ambushers. I've found this to be the fairest and most accepted application whether my players are the ambushed or the ambushers
@@gman1515 Your explanation of the way you do it makes perfect sense. In the situation described in the video, Merisiel was informed that the road was likely to have bandits, and told the GM that she was keeping a watchful eye out for danger. In this case i would say that rules as written, she continues to do what she was prior to rolling initiative, which is using the Seek action to find any dangerous enemies, and moving along the road. I would allow the player to decide which combination and how fast they were moving, but would recommend that those two actions make up her turn.
I’d give you a *second* thumbs up for “roll-ricka-roll” if I could.
Obscure reference for the win!
Nick Lowe anyone?
17:50: Small clarification for newcomers : No "crit" happened, as these in P2e only occur in relationship to a DC and this is initiative.
One must be careful when using common old terms because it drags assumptions.
You did an amazing job here and I learnt a lot. However, I would have loved to see a mixed result explained where one goblin failed its stealth check and then you had an opportunity to see a player decide to explain to fellow party members where they think they see one goblin and also what happens if they then walked into that area and perhaps could observe only 1 of the 3 or 4 goblins in the area. Is there a risk of being hit by an AOO of they passed two goblins still unnoticed as they head in to attack one they had observed.
Wow! Great breakdown! I’m sharing your channel with my players and GMs (I run an after-school Pathfinder program at a middle school).
Oh, and *subscribed*!
Thanks -- I greatly appreciate the support!
Great job on the video. I think you're treatment of Merisiel's natural 20 is spot on.
Example 4 - she noticed something was wrong with the foliage, or birds were quiet. That’s the point of the nature check. She doesn’t know there’s an enemy yet, but she sure knows there’s a problem.
Great video...I have been doing this wrong. Time to adjust :)
Dude, thank you for all the work you put into these videos. They're thorough, easy to understand, and engaging. Keep it up.
Thanks for the kind words!
Great video as usual!
Great video as usual. Really loved the delay option as a compromise between metagaming and playing the game in a fun way.
Very useful and great job as usual! (also, that reference from Glass Cannon was much appreciated) :D
I love those idiots.
Drat! , I have been allowing a surprise round in my game-not sure what I would do without your videos,thanks again.
Although I play PF 1E, I still find this information very useful in my gameplay as a DM. Up until about 7 yrs ago I was using the AD&D 2nd Edition. PF is so much more defined and organized, I can't believe I didn't use it earlier. As such, however, I am not as well versed with PF that I would like to be. With Covid I just did not have the players. I have only found out about VTT's recently (the last 2 yrs), that required me to not only learn the ruleset of PF but also the VTT as well, (I use FGU), and that cut into play time severely. Your course is really great, it helps clarify the difference between game sets and there are so many I can't count them. These are so worthwhile, thank you so much for taking the time to do them. Sincerely. 👀
Thank you so much for this. Love your videos. Sheds a lot of light on some of the more rule intensive areas to navigate as a GM.
You're very welcome!
These videos are really great. Thank you for your work.
You're very welcome! :)
Great video, I am suscribed. Last nigth I was looking for surprise rounds for hours.
Glad I could help!
I watched a actual play from the DM Lair and he rolled everything first including the PC's initiatives. It went really well in my opinion. Watching everybody at the table react to monsters as they began to cast spells and pop out from hiding locations. so even if the PC's did roll there initiative first they weren't told.
I'm kind of embarrassed by the number of time I've gone back and watched this video. That being said it's a great video.
In the last example, I would be tempted to "assume" that the character with the initiative that beat the stealth of the ambushers would delay and simply place them after the first acting ambusher.
I tend to agree.
Yep, me too. After all, they did get a gangbusters PERCEPTION check. So it's not like they didn't earn it.
In the same vein, my solution is to just up the first creature's initiative to just above the first player's. That way, it's basically as if the player delayed a bit, but without changing their dice.
Genesys has a similar issue with ambushes. I've always ruled it that initiative is representative of your character's reaction time. Because you cant react without something to react too, one ambusher always gets an action to trigger initiative.
Seems to me that if you are Searching in exploration mode, that it is functionally the same as Seeking in encounter mode. I'd allow the elf that won the initiative to make a Seek roll on that basis. Taking the goblins from Undetected to Hidden. Then she can do the Point Out action, leaving her one action to get to cover.
Scenario 4 is why I have a dice roller app. I know my players bonuses so I do the rolls on my phone so they don't even know i'm rolling in this particular scenario. Then I can play it out correctly and my players are just as surprised as their characters. "As you walk, you notice it's too quiet. The sounds of birds and bugs have stopped and you can see some underbrush has been disturbed around you. Someone is here, though you don't know who, how many, or why they are concealing themselves." The fact that they would have to roll initiative means that they already know there's some sort of encounter. I'm just careful to make sure they don't know what the scenario is about. Maybe its a traveling troupe who is paranoid so they hide? Make sure you have those encounters so they cant just always assume its gonna be a fight.
Thumbs up for the roll rick a roll!
Yeah, for Example #4 I always tell my players that they have a bad feeling about the next room or they have a sneaking suspicion that something is amiss. Gives them a chance to seek or ready an action and they get to feel cool because they turn the ambush around on the enemies.
The question of what to do when a player has higher initiative then a the monsters they don't know are there is an interesting dilemma. Though I haven't run Pathfinder 2e, I find a good answer in my experience is to not call infinitive until the presence of a threat is made known, similar to your suggestions of describing just enough to suggest the character knows they might be in danger. Just felt like agreeing with you in comment for some reason.
The part I have the biggest issue with here is in this example
1. We are concealed and see some enemies and have a clear line of site. The enemies are completely unaware
2. I cast a somatic spell to hit their leader.
3. My equally concealed friend was going to throw a fire bomb right as my spell hit
In the rules as written everyone will role initiative and if I role bad ill go last even though I was going to cast a spell silently from the shadows against an unaware enemy and 2 enemies get to go before my friend. Because of the lack of a surprise round, our awesome planned out joint attack cant happen.
The way I think it should be is we hold our actions (what we had planned) and when we all role initiative, as written, all held actions trigger and then combat proceeds as normal. The way its written now just doesn't seem natural...
Your doing gods work
The issue I have with asking for an initiative roll before the ambushing monsters spring their attack is that it ruins the suspense and drama of the ambush. The players all know OOC that something is about to happen at that point. Sure, we might say that from a game mechanics standpoint it works better RAW, but it sure ruins the experience of the ambush.
I can't tell you how helpful this video is. Its a shame that RAW things are a bit wonky, but I like your solution.
Thanks for the kind words! I'm glad the video helped!
I guess the other option is that she twigs onto the Druid's reaction almost before it is obvious.
I think saying "your perception roll is higher than the stealth, so you get the idea something is off" is a good option
Very useful. Thank you very much.
You are welcome!
In scenario 4 If goblins were succesfull in stealth checks you can't start the encounter unless GM orders one of them made an attack. In that case all do their initiative rolls and Rogue would have an observed goblin to attack. Scenario 4 is imposibble scenario if you follow the rules in the example 2.
Thank you for your videoes it helps my group to understand the rules.
You're welcome!
thanks, that helps a lot
You're welcome!
I appreciate this video although For example 4 though that's a case of Initiative being called too early As a gm I cant say I haven't done it myself but Initiative should really only be used for two things time sensitive cases and fights. Especially since most players once Initiative is called fly into a fight or die mindset.
about example 4
we played a small group, like 2 players and some NPCs,
we come into a small room with a well inside. on top of the water from the well, their was a statue,
we rolled at the start or so our initive (or like I used my seek action determine my initiv for the "encounter"
our GM onlly said, their is a statue and on the edges, their were some pressure plates or so, one edge was broken
it was online, so that it was a encounter, was quite hard to hide, but instead of giving us any enemy, we could explore and look around
then, as someone steps on the plates, the statue starts to move around itself and the "encounter" starts, with a damm hard trap as an enemy xD
The problem with using the delay action is that Marisa doesn't know anything is up, so delaying is still reacting to information the character doesn't have but the player does (ie initiative was rolled.) I've found the best middle ground is that the character has a 'bad feeling' but doesn't know what's up. Then allow the character to react on that 'bad feeling.' Whether that be holding, seeking, or tossing up some sort of defence/support spell if the character is the type to react that way. As much as I'm liking 2e, I find the lack of surprise round to be a down side of the edition.
I noticed that this video is easily watched and listened to at 1.5x play speed.
This has caused a lot of problems in our games. One example.
Goblin had a captive hostage and threatening to kill her on an ledge 10' above us. Diplomacy was a standoff but the party didn't want to provoke the situation.
One character said, "Screw it, I'm going for the rope to climb up and get the goblin."
Roll Initiative.
The person who said she was going for the rope went last in order.
The Goblin went first and attacked the hostage
Other party member fired arrows
There was some recriminations about who started the fight
When it came to the player who first said she was going for the rope to climb it, instead said that she was going to use Diplomacy to de-escalate the situation and was able to claim the moral high ground in the group because she tried to diffuse the situation when everyone else attacked.
In the Post fight discussion the person who invoked the initiative role said she didn't do anything (which was true) and that the others attacked AFTER the Goblin attacked.
This has happened more than once.
i wouldnt roll initiative until the player who rolled good enough nature check would feel something is out of the ordinary when the birds flew from that one spot, and they actually try to find out what happens
Glass Cannon sent me.
Cool! Which episode?
In the 2nd example, I thought when using the Avoid Notice exploration activity, you have to make a stealth check to see if enemies notice you, then if you want to ambush, roll initiative using stealth for both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you after initiative is rolled
Everyone on the official forums is telling me you don't re-roll and the first roll when the players enter the general area of the goblins is used for initiative too. That said, I haven't seen anyone official chime in and by a strict reading of the rules, it sounds like you're correct and another Stealth check would be called for.
I hesitate, though, to take this video down and replace it with a corrected version just due to the overwhelming number of people insisting that it's only one roll, not two.
I'm going to keep bugging people and hope to find an official response (maybe this will come up in Knights of Everflame). I'd hate to replace the video just to later learn the masses were correct all along.
Basics4Gamers Please report back on this one. Maybe create a short follow up video. This topic is a big deal to a lot of players and GMs. Thanks so much for taking on this huge task of educating us about the subtleties of PF2e.
@@r2roberts The GameMastery Guide confirms that you roll Stealth for your initiative and that total is also used to determine if you are noticed or not. One roll, not 2.
I was under the assumption that if someone rolls stealth for perception and someone else rolls perception than, if a player beats that stealth with its perception you also see it. This makes much more sense. You go before your enemy because you spotted it. It flows much more naturally/logically. So I was surprised when you said something else is how the rules are written. Because as you pointed out this leads to weird scenarios. Not sure what to do with this. I am considering just doing as I mentioned it myself, but the fact that it is indeed not RAW bothers me a bit. Hopefully more will be explained in the GMG as someone else pointed out.
I agree, it's a bit counter-intuitive by RAW. And it's a rule that I think is very, very open for GMs to interpret things their own way. But, for whatever it may be worth, there are two reasons why I don't like using the same Perception roll for both Initiative and to spot a sneaking enemy. First, the game really seems to be designed to not have rolls be absolutely contested by other rolls, and instead rolls are contested by DCs. Having a Stealth roll be contested by a Perception roll (but only when that Perception roll is also used for initiative) may be a precedent that causes further confusion down the line.
And the other reason I don't prefer to do that is it takes away the importance of the original Stealth Check. Look at it from a player's point of view. If their Stealth Check beats their opponent's Perception DC, they feel as if they have earned the right to not be noticed until they strike. If that instantly gets overturned by the Initiative roll, it not only takes away all significance of beating the Perception DC, but I think that would be less fun for the player.
@@HowItsPlayed I think intent is the key factor on that. If the ambush is for immediately jumping out and attacking it should all be rolled together (stealth and perception for init checks). Then proceed with combat.
If the intent is to hide or jump out and start talking then it's just Stealth vs Perception DC's and hold off on init until someone's intent changes to combat.
So what happens if one of the goblins fails their initial stealth check to avoid notice? Are they hidden or observed? And would they get to roll perception in the event that combat begins?
First off, thanks for posting as I found this extremely clear and helpful.
Still, I hesitate to roll all the goblins' Stealth checks individually, because what if it is a warband of 20 goblins, nearly all of them are behind complete cover? Someone is bound to catch the party's attention, roll a natural 1, etc.
I'm inclined to do a single roll for all enemies lying in ambush, using the lowest Stealth modifier or some average...
it will take a long time rolling all these. But good luck hiding 20 goblins without a single one of them blowing their cover. Alternatively, you could give them assurance?
You could roll them in groups. For example, ambushers on two sides of the road, roll two dice. But, there's a Moon Moon in every group. imgur.com/r/moonmoon/A0TXiuZ
I think the best approach would be to allow a character to delay if they win initiative and all enemies are unnoticed and undetected.
Example 3 would be hard to solo. I guess you would have to ask a question if something surprises the party, etc.
How does the Ranger feat - Scout's Warning play into this? Especially if the Ranger is unaware of the danger ahead. Thanks!
I'd say it's the GM's call. If they have any reason to be on alert, I'd give the rest of the party the bonus.
Excellent video. Thanks. But I'm having difficulty confirming all of this in the Core Rulebook. Can you (or anyone) please list the relevant sections and page numbers? I'd like to point out to others in my group where exactly this information is in the CRB. My GM and other players seem to think that surprise must not be a thing in PF2. Obviously it is.
It's true that there is no such thing as a "Surprise Round" such as those found in PF 1st Edition and D&D. Instead, a sneaking player uses their Stealth skill for initiative, which gives them an edge in going first in the initiative order... which kind of gives the same effect as having a Surprise Round.
Is there a particular rule you're wanting to support? The first half of the video (before the examples) provides page numbers for the relevant parts in the lower-left of the screen.
@@HowItsPlayed I see I've made the mistake of not watching your previous videos in their entirety. It's all the different conditions, such as Observed, Concealed, Undetected, Unnoticed, Invisible, and the visibility factors of Bright Light, Dim Light, and Darkness. All of that is dicussed separately in the book from the sections on Initiative. I don't see Surprise being explained completely in any one section of the CRB they way you bring it all together in your video. I don't have the book with me now. I'll look at it this weekend. And I'm going to watch your entire set of related videos. I'm so glad you're making them.
This is why initiative should be made in secret by the GM
What happens if any of the goblins fail, the stealth check? Do all of them get revealed or just the single one? I can homebrew or come up with something based on my intuition but I feel like the rules should cover this.
In Example 3, at 15:30, you mention the fourth goblin couldn't be attacked directly because it is Undetected. Wouldn't it actually be Undetected and Unnoticed? Similarly, I'm a bit confused as to why at 13:48 all 4 goblins immediately transition from 'Undetected & Unnoticed' to just Undetected. Wouldn't the party still be wholly unaware of how many goblins there were, or even their general location, until each individual one had a turn and attacked (thus making its presence known). (Thanks so much for this video!)
Ah ok, maybe this is due to the phrasing on GMG p11, which seems to state that as long as the encounter has begun, even if all of the enemies' Stealth rolls beat the players Perception, they are only Undetected (but not Unnoticed). Going by that then it would also sound like it is impossible to use Stealth to begin an encounter Unnoticed? At best, you'd be Undetected?
@@hexplorerapp Basically, "Unnoticed" means you can't even suspect that a creature might be present. Once something occurs that would allow a reasonable person to have a suspicion of danger, then everyone loses "Unnoticed".
@@HowItsPlayed Do you always tell players how many creatures are in the initiative?
The ruling is absolutely broken in sense it brakes several things about stealth in Pathfinder 2e and I'm not joking here.
PF2e GMG Page 11: "So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled highest still knows someone is around, and can start moving about, Skeeing, and otherwise preparing to fight."
1) You contradict the ruling if you refuse to tell the players how many creatures there are who are unnoticed. Because the moment you rolled initiative for them is the moment you must declare how many creatures there are. They can't be unnoticed and if they are not unnoticed you then know they are around and if you know they are around you can just count how many there are! Do you understand how stupid this is?
2) If players see four Kobolds on camp fire and initiative is rolled you probably wont tell the players about the 7 Kobolds close by using Avoide Notice but because players move First the Kobolds are only undetected and as previously pointed out if players don't know that there is someone they are unnoticed but the ruling just removed unnoticed you as DM M U S T tell the players there are 7 creatures hiding somewhere.
3) Players want to sneak in to a Castle but the Guard is standing watch. They can't throw rocks to distract because that would cause players to enter in encounter mode to roll initiative to roll stealth to get to the door and to roll thievery to open the lock and enter the house before the guard comes back. BUT because we rolled initiative the Guard now knows there are FOUR creatures close by, logically he would immediately blow on his horn to cause a Alarm.
4) When Guard blows on horn to cause an Alarm any Guard who hears it is now added to the initiative running towards the combat and there fore because we rolled initiative and the Guard went first the guards know there are 4 creatures and players know there is 1 Guard and 27 Creatures in this combat.
Do you understand why the ruling of removing unnoticed is ruining the game here? You are unable to perform some task in encounter mode which might require encounter mode instead of exploration mode because we must go round by round rules as the task is so high! The only thing this rule is doing is making Stealth harder and literally driving the players to murder every guard on the courtyard! This is the same problems as saying in D&D 5e that rolling 1 on stealth is critical failure which so far has ruined every single stealth mission the players have tried to do between different DMs because SOMEONE rolls 1 and they are seen. Only reason the fake letter worked was because the guards saw same person running three times past them and that was just confusing so basically "benny hill music here"
5) Rogue rolls initiative with the party and wishes to be unnoticed so he can sneak behind the BBEG and free the Princess but Rules as Written now that is impossible because the BBEG says "Show your selves or else I cut her" and next round the princess is dead and ritual is started 👏 WELL DONE! and I could keep going but I think A4 with Dyslexia and ADHD is enough rambling.
Thus we come back to the question:
Do you tell players how many hidden creatures there are in every single combat?
DO YOU TELL PLAYERS HOW MANY HIDDEN CREATURES THERE ARE IN EVERY SINGLE COMBAT?!??
It is an important question!
@@xezzee Chill 💀
If I was GM, there's a good chance I would've skipped the rouge's turn until the beginning of next round when somebody jumps out. But I would most likely give her a "bad feeling".
Don't know if I've got it wrong but in example 1 your first bullet point says, 'Players should describe their actions while in encounter mode. This may determine what they roll for initiative.'
Shouldn't that be 'exploration mode'?
But what if the goblin makes a ranged attack?
I would prefer if the initiating creature got its combat round first then roll initiative and avoid this whole issue.
Initiative is for some reason confusing, first it says you roll your perception but here its only a +2? But the perception I have at lvl 9 is a +16 with a +2 bonus from a battlefield surveyor, Do I roll d20+18 or still only do d20+2? And if its the latter why would it say to roll perception if you don't even add the skill to it?
You roll 1d20 plus your perception bonus, so you would roll +18. The goblins have Perception bonuses of +2... you're a 9th level character with master proficiency in Perception, and they are level -1 creatures with untrained proficiency.
Could someone explain to me why monsters/NPCs automatically win ties? Why not decide the tiebreaker by comparing relevant ability mods for example?
I think they went this way in 2nd edition just to speed up the process a tiny bit. And, IIRC, someplace they do suggest using ability mods as a tiebreaker between players... it's just not a hard and fast rule.
@@HowItsPlayed Gotcha! Thanks for the reply and the videos, they're all very high quality.
@@GeeGe. No problem! Thanks for watching and commenting!
I disagree that seek when initiative is rolled is metagaming. Initiative is how fast PC spots danger and is able to react on that. So if the character rolled, as in example 4, high and sees no enemies, that means that he detected the danger (somehow - it is up to DM to describe), but doesn’t see any specific enemy, which is perfect time to start seeking for enemies or prepare a reaction.
can you do a video on rogues and a few scenarios
I'm sure eventually I'll get to videos for specific classes, but for now I'm trying to hit the major topics that everyone could benefit from. That said, I've already done videos on stealth, surprise, traps and the Thievery skills... so in some ways I've already covered a lot of core Rogue topics.
Where do you get your VTT tokens?
I made those within the authoring tool. But here are a couple other places online that may work too: thefatefulforce.com/battle-resources/token-creator/
rolladvantage.com/tokenstamp/
How do you get on the paizo official forums?
Go to paizo.com, hover over "Community" and select "Forums" from the menu that appears. You'll also need to create an account before you can post.
For the character that was at the top of the initiative with perception, I tell them what there perception would normally do, like you hear the sound of a bowstring being pulled back, what do you do? This is not bending the rules, BTW.
is all of this still true for the remaster?
Can enemies also use the delay action?
I don't see any reason why they couldn't. In my games I'll have them delay if it makes sense.
@@HowItsPlayed Couldn't the enemies then delay their actions in such a way that they are all in one initative block? The players could probably also use their delay actions to break up the block but I just think if the delay train starts
rolling it is going to lead to something unpleasant for everyone.
When they all rolled initiative but the rogue didn't know combat started, it sounds like the GM shouldn't have made them roll since nothing was happening. I have only GMed for 5e, but we usually don't start combat until something is actually attacking in some way.
That presents its own problem. The rogue _wants_ initiative before they attack because they would get the benefit of Surprise Attack, and getting to use Stealth+cover for their initiative.
If you wait until after they move in and attack they would get a single attack with no sneak attack added damage, and they'd roll perception initiative possibly getting extremely low- wasting all that planning and sneaking they did up to this point.
@@FormerRuling
I didn't mean that they actually roll an attack before initiative. I meant that I usually don't have them roll initiative until an attack is intended, like they make ready to attack. Then we start combat based on their initiative roll.
It seems in Pathfinder, as soon as enemies are aware of you they just start initiative. It makes sense for most aggressive monsters I suppose. I just like to give my players the chance to at least attempt talking their way out of a fight before just rolling for combat.
@@MrRJPE initiative wasn't rolled when they saw the party though. In the first example some secret rolls happened and they passed without the players ever rolling initiative or even realizing anything was there.
The initiative was only rolled when the Goblins intended to ambush and attack the party.
The order is:
-Goblin is undetected and wants to jump out and attack.
- Init is called and party rolls. Goblin doesn't roll and gets to use his already super high stealth check as his init.
- If party rolls low everything goes as planned he jumps out, becoming observed, and gets Surprise Attack to deal big damage with a sneak attack.
- if party rolls high they spend an awkward turn most likely delaying their turn and volunteering to lower their own init. You lose the sneak but are most likely the top in init still and are still undetected.
I thought that unless Maruisio beats the stealth check by 10, it's not a critical Just because she rolled a bat 20???
Natural 20s (and natural 1s) apply to skills same as attack rolls. Check out the very end of page 445 and continuing onto page 446.
7:27 my group uses dexterity mod, to determine who goes first in a tie. Whoever's fastest, as our logic for it.
Instant Houserule against that stupid initiative-suprise-stuff (I find it stupid. If you dont, have fun :3 Because we are here to have fun. You dont have fun my way ^^).
When you win your stealth-check you act once and then initiative rolls.
Done. For us.
Stay crunchy.
Yeah the initiative rules seem just convoluted and overly complicated as fuuuuuuuck
In your first example with the Goblins who just want to get across the road... Why should the PCs get "free" Seek actions to try to spot the Goblins? The Goblins didn't perform the Hide action "in front of" the PCs. (Your previous video on Stealth showed previously undetected and unnoticed characters ignored by passersby without a roll.) It seems to me that the PCs should only get "free" Seek actions if they are using the Search or maybe Scout Exploration Activity.
I'm not entirely sure I follow what you're referencing by "free Seek action", but in that example the goblins are using the Avoid Notice exploration activity, which calls for a Stealth Check to be rolled. I believe the DC that determines success or failure of that roll is the Perception DC of each creature that comes within perceiving distance of the creature using Avoid Notice.
@@HowItsPlayed I hadn't thought of the Goblins as performing Avoid Notice. That's a very good point. How do you then reconcile the scene at 20:13 in Basics of Stealth? BTW, the guard was using the Search Exploration at 19:37 not Seeking, correct? It was during Exploration, not Encounter.
I made that video from the perspective of it being Encounter Mode. The passing guard would roll his check as he passed because it was his turn. The passing students would not have rolled a Perception Check because they were not using the Seek action. Merisiel did not roll a Stealth Check when either of them passed because it wasn't her turn.
Basics4Gamers I guess that’s why, in Exploration Mode, I would have the Goblins be undetected and unnoticed, almost like a Hazard with a Trained Stealth DC, and PCs using the Search or Scout activities would have a Seek roll against the Goblins’ Stealth DCs. If they were in some other Exploration activity I would have them pass unawares. The reason I’m a bit concerned about having the Goblins roll a Hide roll is that the PCs were not in the area when the Goblins hid themselves. Also since they aren’t moving I wouldn’t use Sneak either. Unless staying hidden is part of the Sneak action. That’s not how I read the rule.
Quick correction
Example #3, ~12:00, it should be a survival check, not nature. The names are confusing, but nature is about animals, survival is about the wilderness.
Nature
You know a great deal about the natural world, and you command and train animals and magical beasts. Even if you’re untrained in Nature, you can use it to Recall Knowledge.
Survival
You are adept at living in the wilderness, foraging for food and building shelter, and with training you discover the secrets of tracking and hiding your trail. Even if you’re untrained, you can still use Survival to Subsist.
What's a DC?
DC stands for "Difficulty Class". It's the number you have to beat in order to succeed.
@@HowItsPlayed thank you very much, I'm from Spain and I have the Spanish version
M rolled high perception. At that time it is more than reasonable to say "Your character feels something's afoot. She e is not yet aware of its exact nature." Was it bushes moving, the lack of bird songs, whispers in the woods, just a creepy sensation they are being observed? Doesn't matter narrate it or not but let the character that was best at perceiving danger at that moment act for god damn sake. Delaying is perfectly viable but acting on a hunch is as well.
Example 4 shows the many places where Paizo didn't think through Pathfinder 2. Liny observed something as it was her perception that she used passively.
Rewarding her for the high initiative roll is punishing the goblins. In fact they should be rewarded for beating their passive perception. But they are NPCs, they dont need to be rewarded. Imagine the situation was reversed. Imagine the players were playing the goblins and the npcs were the adventurers. Imagine how the players would feel if their carefully crafted ambush which should be succesful since they were well hidden, would be suddenly ruined because the npcs rolled a high initiative. You even said that it actually makes sense that the ambush not be ruined.
This is the core problem with this. This is why the surprise round made sense.
While I agree with your video, I dont think it makes a good game design. It makes ambush tactics really weak.
Winning ties automatically going to the DM is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of in regards to stealth.
It is a DC check. not a contest, as such you MEETING their check means you pass their dc.
Ive been trying to learn the system slowly as dnd 5e seems to be capping off... I like the concept of combat.. I dont like initiative with skills. It feels like an attempt to add order to out of combat actions.. It ruins the element of surprise and exhaust players before the encounter... I'll keep listening, I may be just over complicating things in my head..
My Initiative in life is a big fat 0.
"The less thing you have to roll in front of the players, behind your screen, the better"
I disagree. Have you *seen* the face players make when you roll a bunch of dice and the players have no idea why you just did that?
... What's the point of the video, since you have no idea how it works in example 4? I was didn't need your video to have no idea how this example works.
..He does know how it works though? He explains the rules by RAW, then gives some better alternatives since the rules don't really provide a good solution to the problem in example 4. The second alternative he mentions has now become official I think, someone mentioned that Paizo later made it so that the player would realize something is up.
@@Geffro no, he doesn't explain the rule by raw. He explains whet some DM he knows would do. He doesn't explain what Merisiel can do by raw.
The second alternative is often refered as "everyone has spider sense" on the official forum, and I'm quite sure it's not an official rule. And if you don't understand why it's called "spider sense", let's twik the situation a bit: the goblins want to flank the PCs, so they are waiting until the PCs to be between them before they reveal themselves. So after Merisiel acts, Goblin 1 stays hidden. Now Lini gets to act, but she's in the same situation as Merisiel: it's her turn but she notices no one. Her spider-sense tingles, and she knows something is wrong. And it's the same for every PC.