Save Money & Stop Using 110V Chargers! | Hyundai Ioniq 5 | EV6 | GV60
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
- A viewer of mine suggested that I make a video about charging losses associated with different levels of charging. Boy was I shocked at how much money wasting using the level 1 charger provided with my car. Let me know what you guys think below in the comments!
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0:00 Introduction
0:30 Ad
1:22 How I've been charging
4:34 Testing results
7:46 How much I'll save on Level 2
8:52 Wrap-up - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
![ทททททททท #27 [หลุยส์ เค โตมายังไง ณ สระบุรี]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CaKoYw_Xmtg/mqdefault.jpg)
I can explain this because I am sort of in the business of designing power electronics. The big ding here is the 800V pack, it less efficient to convert 110V AC to 800V DC than from 220V AC. L1 charging is way more efficient for EVs with 400V packs. The larger the voltage gap the less efficient it gets. In addition, there is always a fix overhead driving the "infrastructure" circuits, so the more power you drive through the main power path, the % of losses get lower as the overhead losses are sort of fixed more or less.
This deserves to be pinned!
Level two is much more efficient than level one for charging
@@TheIoniqGuy This not exactly the same but a good example, DC to DC instead of AC to DC, principal is similar. i.stack.imgur.com/SvCNa.png The efficiency plot is based on the same output voltage but with different input voltage. You can think of 2.8V input as L1 and 5V in as L2. Higher load current shows higher efficiency as well. See if you have any luck in getting the Hyundai engineers to give you the efficiency curves for L1 vs L2 against charging current. State of charge matters too as it floats towards a higher voltage towards higher state. L1 charging at 80% is way less efficient than at 10%. Maybe just don't use L1 beyond say 50% SOC.
This is great information. I know nothing about electronics, but this SOUNDS like a reasonable explanation!? Do most other EVs have 400V packs?
The majority are 400V
Can confirm, just made test with ABB Terra, 11kW, results (230V network):
A-setpoint on charger
chareg kW - power from charger
battery kW- power to battery according to bluetooth dongle
A Charger, kW battery, kW loss, kW loss, %
6 4.2 3.64 0.56 13%
8 5.6 4.9 0.7 13%
10 6.9 6.09 0.81 12%
12 8.3 7.51 0.79 10%
14 9.6 8.78 0.82 9%
16 11 10.04 0.96 9%
This does push me to go ahead and install the level 2 charger. Thanks for putting this out there.
Excellent test and video! I had no idea of the efficiency loss using level 1
Taking delivery of my 23 Ioniq 5 tomorrow and your videos have been very intuitive. Thank you!! I'm going to have the challenge of having no garage and living in a condominium. At least I'm in an end unit. I live in Greensboro, NC so hopefully cold weather will not be too much of a problem.
Thanks for the honerable mention :) So the conclusion is the faster you can charge at home, the smaller your loss. The only reason why you would want to charge more slowly than your 48A or 50A charger allows would be to minimize using power from the grid and harvesting only your own solar power. Based on the efficiency curve you and I have separately simulated, I would say the minimum rate one should charge at is 24A, 32A is better, and of course 40, 48 or even 50 is ideal. One point to add is that the higher the amperage, the more significant losses in the cables become. I have measured them and can say they are still small compared to the losses inside the car. Using an AWG 6 grade cable over 40 meters leads to a 3% loss in the cable charging at 45A. Obviously the longer the cable to your charger and the lower the grade, the worse the loss will be.
My question is how do you balance this with battery longevity? I was under the impression that the lower rate you charge, the better for the life of the battery. Should I always charge at the highest I can (48A)?
@@edrift3d Yes, unless you optimize for solar excess in which case a lower rate is still better than buying not perfectly clean power for a higher price of the grid. Charging below 10kW will have no negative impact on battery life and any differences below 10kW will not matter. Whether you fast
charge at 220kW or 50kW is an entirely different matter!
Thanks for the info, yes, I did understand that with my electronics background. I had a level 2 installed within a couple of weeks of getting my original 2019 Soul EV!
Nice video, I had no idea, thx for sharing this information.
Thanks for this. I primarily use EA and level 2 charging and will continue to do so until the two years is done and then I'll primarily is level 2. Thanks for the video!
Great video as always! We just bought an Ioniq 5 and installed a Level 2 charger, technically electric vehicle supply equipment (EVSE), as the actual charger is in the vehicle, as you know. I only mention it because there is some confusion out there. Our installation was excellent and cost us $750. We used the Emporia app to monitor the input charging power. I noticed that the power in was 11.5 kW. Knowing that the vehicle charger accepts a maximum of 10.9 kW, it was clear that there were losses, in our case 5.2%, which isn't bad, unless the vehicle was accepting less than 10.9 kW (I didn't measure it) then the losses would be a bit more. Obviously, I didn't do a thorough experiment as you did but it's in the ballpark. The cable was warm so there is a resistance loss there. Your and the excellent comments below explain the inverter losses. I had thought about using Level 1 charging but as Mr. Low points out converting 110AC to 800VDC is a heavy lift, and as you have demonstrated, an expensive one. One nitpick on your spread sheet - kW is power not current. Thanks for all of your videos. They have been really helpful to us and I'm sure other Ioniq owners out there.
I'm expecting my I5 in Dec. Love your videos. My question is with a type 2 what are my losses with the different levels. Keep up the great videos...
Both screens and comfort electronic modules were on - probably required cca. 100-300 Watts. I think you should repeat the test and make normal daily charging sessions with the car locked and obd2 dongle disconnected. Then measure charging efficiency after each session (in level 1, next day at level 2) by comparing KillaWatt cumulative data with the %SOC and Cumulative Energy Charged (kWh) in the car. The CEC counter seems to include internal car charging losses, so the SOC is probably better - compare how much kWh was needed to charge battery back to 80% SOC at Type 1 and Type 2. Thanks!
Very useful information and video. Thank you Sir.
I didn't know it was that bad. Wow! Thanks for the heads up!
just came across this.
thanks for laying it out like that.
i just bought a bolt euv and it came with a 120-240 convertible evse.
it puts out 9kw level 2 and up to 1.2 amps level 1.
vehicle has a default of 0.9amp level 1 really slow.
but if you think about the onboard charger as an appliance, it consumes the same no matter the throughput generally.( couple hundred watts. )
it moves/converts at a cost.
another thing is with my bolt, if you leave it connected to the charger, the battery heater will run occasionally too in winter.
unplugging when not charging or needing to go somewhere saves power too.
about to permanently install a 48 amp evse for my bolt, and by your calculations, that should be even cheaper to charge at.
i didn't think of the charging losses in such a way in determining my power use.
your video made me think about it now.
since the evse inexplicably wouldn't work on 220 at first, so i charged at 1.2 amp a couple times over 2ish+ days.🤣
tried it one more time on 240, and it suddenly worked.
that one will go in the car and the 11.5kw will be mounted to the wall outside.
Very helpful - thanks
This is very interesting, never would have expected that much loss. Although I would bet a lot of people that pay over $50k for a car could not care less.
Great video! I might be buying an Ioniq 5 thus week. Didn't know anything about charging until I watched this video. What charger do you recommend I buy from Amazon? Thanks
I am retired so a level 1 EVSE meets my daily needs. I pay 10 cents a KWh so half of the rate you are paying. To install a level 2 charger will cost me in excess of $2000. Even at $16 a month in losses it would take me 125 months in losses to equate to the money spent on a level 2charger.
That’s fair. It really depends on your personal situation. Your state doesn’t have any incentives for charging equipment or time of use?
.065 cents/kw in Ohio and no off hour savings. So we L1 8-amps on a PHEV.
Interesting find. I would have initially thought it would be the opposite but didn't think conversion costs would be so large.
Great video. As always..
😎 I live in the UK and paid £1200 for a L2 charger. I use Octopus energy at 7.5p/kWh (8.7c/kWh) for 4 hours a night... But my local council offers me free.yes free charging at 50kw! Still a tank of "gas" for 50 kWh say is £3.75 /$4.35 for 200 miles. My 40mpg ford SUV cost £35...10x that much!!! Happy....😎
Eye opening. Thx for sharing
SPOT ON!! My level 1 charger used twice as much electricity than my level 2 one. I have charts from Texas smart meter to prove this claim. 16 hours to charge on level 1 compared to 2.5 hours on a level 2.
It will change my habits, thank you.
Great video. Never use my level one charger had a basic level to charger forever. I have the option to delay Power to have a car up to eight hours. Or I can set it up in the car or on my phone for whenever I want to charge it. Thanks again for a great video
Thanks for the info. I have been charging at level one for over a year and doing fine. I am retired. When I got my ev, I had three electricians out to bid on a level 2 plug install in my garage. The cheapest was $5100! That's not for a new electrical box, that was just for a dedicated line to my garage.
What the heck?! How long of a run is it? If you can live with only level 1 you would never recoup that insane cost
Hi Corbin. Great video. I'd love for you to do one on how you use your OBD scanner, what software you use on your phone and the parameters that you keep track of. (Don't think I've seen this on your channel yet?) Thanks.
Good idea, Marc! I'll definitely add it to the list for you
Fascinating find. I only use my level 1 in the UK when the sun is shining and my solar is providing the power. Our typical kWh cost is $0.50 and so we always use time of use between 00:30 and 04:30 which is approximately $0.09 using Level 2 charging.
Doesn’t the UK use 220v for their levels 1. Wonder how different the loses would be vs our 110v.
Very interesting and unexpected. Corbin I hope you repeat this test in the winter just to see how much of a difference there is. I know a lot of people using level 1 charging.
I'll definitely revisit when temperatures drop!
First off, thanks for all the great videos. As someone who is considering an Ionic 5 as my next car, your videos are incredibly helpful and direct. I also live in Connecticut and currently drive a Kia Niro PHEV. Considering it has such a small battery, I’ve been content with level one charging, but your video really made me rethink my attitude. I haven’t seen that Connecticut has an incentive for level 2 installation, is there a program they offer to help offset the installation cost?
I know eversource will pay $500 towards a level 2 charger and $500 towards installation. They also pay monthly incentives during the summer to limit charging current during high peak times. www.eversource.com/content/ct-c/residential/save-money-energy/clean-energy-options/electric-vehicles/charging-station-rebates
We have a Niro PHEV also, using a L1 charger on that wouldn't have as much loss as charging as using a L1 charger on a full EV. Also you don't need an expensive charger L2 for a PHEV, the Niro will only take 3.3KW max charge rate. I got ours for $150 on amazon and it cut the time from about 9 hours to just over 2 for a full charge.
@@TheIoniqGuy Thanks! I'll check that out.
@@SkaBob Interesting. Do you mind sharing which charger you bought on Amazon? Typing in EV Charger on Amazon is an invitation to a bajillion knockoffs and dubious offerings.
A couple points you didn't mention here. Every EV has an inverter coolant loop (separate from any battery loop) with an electric pump. Anytime the car is AC charging, that pump is running and can use up to 300 Watts. So yes, if you go to Level 2 charging you are not only saving the cost of running that pump, but you're saving hours on that pump, probably extending it's life. When it comes to winter, the load increases as you mention. If it gets below freezing, you're talking about activating the battery coolant loop pump and heating as well. It's pretty easy to only end up with a couple hundred watts actually going into the battery at that point.
Great job Corbin, I think this video will generate a lot of analysis from people who are experts in the field. If Zhen is correct about 800v being being much less efficient than 400v cars to charge at 110, this information should be known to everyone.
Thanks for sharing this info. I was planning to have a level 2 charger installed in my garage. The electrician came out to look at my garage and electrical box. He gave me an estimate of $4100 to do the job. I was told by other people that it should cost around $2500. The electrician said the work require breaking my drywall and run a line to the garage. I would be responsible to repair the drywall after installation. I would need to find someone to repair it at my expense. I’m going to stick with level 1 charging. I did the math and the initial cost can’t be justified. Even with the tax credits and my utility provider offering rebates still won’t offset my costs. My utility provider offers peak, normal and off peak hour rates. I would charge my vehicle during off peak hours. I have another vehicle as well so I would alternate vehicles each day while my EV is charging. I’m retired and I can be flexible with alternating vehicles. I have a Hyundai Ioniq 5 electric vehicle and Hyundai offers free 30 minute fast charging sessions for 2 years from Electrify America 😢
Wow. That's a lot. Our electrician installed ours next to the box in the garage. He cut a small hole in the drywall and drilled a hole through a stud in order to connect the cable to the box. No drywall repair was necessary as the charger unit covered up the hole. It cost us $750 plus the cost of the charger unit.
@@rjn1124 great! Your situation was different from mine. My electoral box is in my basement on the other end of the house. It would require about over 25 feet of wire to run through my garage so I decided against it. I’m satisfied with what I’m doing now. Thanks for your input
@@TheTom2video Thanks for the clarification. You definitely made the right decision. We paid $500 for our Level 2 equipment plus $750 for installation for a total of $1,250. Corbin's maximum difference in monthly cost saving is $18.54 so the payback period for our installation is 5.6 years. One wonders if the equipment will still be functioning then or if there will be a better technology to replace it. I think that we chose to do it for the convenience. I think it depends on how many miles you drive per day. If it isn't much then the Level 1 approach makes a lot of sense. If you put a lot of miles on in a day the Level 1 might not be able to keep up. It's a simple calculation to make. On an unrelated note, we were very anxious to get the Ioniq 5 Limited with the two tone grey interior. They were almost none available at the time but we finally found one and bought it. What didn't know, and the dealer didn't tell us, was that despite the vehicle not qualifying for the $7500 rebate if purchased, you could get the $7500 rebate if you leased it, which is what a friend of ours did about a month later. We wish we had known about this. I personally think that leasing is a good option as the technology is changing very fast and who knows what might evolve in three years? Enjoy your vehicle. We love ours.
I’m very happy with my 2023 Ioniq 5 limited trim. Had it since November 4. I was able to take it to New York a couple of weeks ago and experience any charging issues. I travel from Baltimore to New York often. The only issue is lack of Electrify America charging stations in New York. Had to charge up in New Jersey before crointo New York. Only 20 miles to where I’m going. I do take advantage of the free 2 year 30 minute charging sessions at electrify America stations. Other than that, knock on wood. So far so good.
This is information to consider when I finally get an EV. Thank you sir
another great video any recommend level 2 chargers
I use Chargepoint Homeflex with no charging issues at 48A but I did have it replaced under warranty due to a bad wifi chip. If you only need a dumb charger up to 40A, check out Grizzl-E. I have also owned that and it worked great.
Per your recommendation I ordered the Grizzl-e charger NEMA 14-50. We currently have an outlet for our dryer that we do not use but it is all the way at the back of our garage and I don't think the cable will reach to our car that is parked outside. I was thinking of purchasing an extension cord that I found from Harbor Freight (25 ft. x 10 Gauge Four Prong Twist-Lock 30A L14-30 Generator Extension Cord). Do you think this will work? Running the extension from the outlet to the front of the garage and then connecting the box to that? Thanks in advance for your input!
Good day The Ioniq Guy. Sorry but you fail to conclude on the most important reason why the "charge loss" is much higher at low charging speeds. The reason for the high "charge loss" is not with the way you charge but with the cars consumption while charging. the car will have a constant consumption of power for the BMS etc. while the car is charging that is why it seems like you have a high "charge loss" while in fact the loss remains variable (15-8%) but you have a constant consumption you are not pointing out. The car will use 150-300 watts when charging.
Oh, so the problem isn't that Level 1 is itself inefficient, it's that the systems required for charging this car on Level 1 are inefficient. That doesn't seem to be a meaningfully different conclusion.
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Thanks! I still have my level 2 charger in a box in the garage (pissed that I spent 2xs buying it from the dealer 😵💫). Guess it time to hook it up! 👍
Which model did you purchase from them?
I was surprised at your results, thank you for doing this. I was not aware of this issue. (I was also surprised at your 21 cent rate...Yikes!!).
Do you think this phenomenon applies to other EVs? It would seem so....
Good video. Thanks.
Great video! My follow up question is, can you do a Level 2 charger comparison video? What have you found to be the most/least effective?
Thanks! If I had access to more chargers I would. I've only Used a Grizzl-e Classic and the ChargePoint Homeflex. If you don't need a network connected charger, I'd go for the Grizzl-e. It's built like a tank. I had to have my ChargePoint replaced due to a faulty wifi chip. I have had another company reach out to me wanting me to review their charger but with all sorts of requirements and wanting to review the video before posting it. I told them no as you can't buy my recommendation. Unbiased reviews only. Hope this helps
I calculate a fixed loss of about 353W plus a loss of 44W per KW charge rate (from your numbers). The fix losses make slow charging very inefficient. I did tests on the losses when using V2L and the no load losses are a very good match at around 350W. Thanks for sharing.
Some other considerations.
First I do live in Europe and have 240V or 3 *240V.
Next consideration: I do have solar panels.
Buying electricity from grid is 22 eurocent to 35 eurocent.
Selling electricity from my panles to the grid is only 8 cente back.
The best I can do is charge my car with the same amount of elkectricity My panels are generating.
Even if the loss is 9% instead of 6%.
Next..when there is no sun.
My house has a connection with 2*25Amps. I have more electricity using equipment. Could be better to chare at 5KW (3*8amps) than with 10,7kw (3*16 amps). To prevent over usage in the house (with extra fire risks). However. In the night I can charge with full power of my level 2 charger.
An inverter converts DC to AC, while a rectifier converts AC to DC. The Power Converter in your IONIQ5 does both.
Good idea, I didn't know what to do with the magnetic board. Thank you for explaining this with real data. With money saved, one can invest like Warren Buffett.
Great video. Level 1 charging is costing you plus $6 I believe per month. But consider the cost of purchasing a level 2 charger. How many months will it take at approx. $6 per month to recoup that cost. And the bigger issue is the cost to have level 2 wiring installed by an electrician, which for me is $1000. That puts the total cost at close to $1500. My math is shaken, but it would take about 250 months to recoup that cost. If my math is accurate.
It´s costing him 18USD per month. And you really dont need 1000USD installation in most cases. Technollogy connections did a video about this topic. 240/208 V is already in your braker box. You need 1 braker, 1 socket and few feet of wires (and someone who can install it if you are not able).
Exactly. For me in New Zealand I'd be looking at $3500 for a 16 or 32 amp charger due to the distance. To further complicate that decision I can use a 50kW DC charge one block away at a cost perhaps 50% higher than my home rate. My AC charging is 80% efficient, DC charging nearly 100%.
If you want this to be really accurate, you should measure at the socket what load is being drawn. Then you would get a slightly higher load out than what the display shows. I did this and I consistently have a 10% loss with level 1 charging. I live in India with 240v and 12amps for level 1.
I'd like to see this same test done with a monitor connected to the outlet you were plugged into and compare that with what the car is saying. It may show that the losses are even more, or maybe something else it off.
One more comment: you don't need an OBD scanner to check for the charging loss occuring inside the car. All you need to do is compare the charging rate the car indicates on the dashboard and the time to reach target. If you do the maths, you will see that by the time the charging would reach its target at the rate indicated the car would have taken in far more kWhs than actually needed to go from the current level (percent of 77.4kWh if you are in the US) to the target level. This is the charging loss in kWhs!
When charging with the 110V AC, does the car automatically warm the the battery? Is there a manual way to warm condition the battery without going through the navigation and setting a charger as a destination point?
Interesting! I do have a great level 2 charger but was actually curious how this would affect my cost.
Where would you suggest I buy a good level 2 charger? Thanks.
I also think that installing a Level 2 charger in your garage might also add the sell value of your home. It's the wave of the future.
For sure. It's definitely a good selling point.
Great video! What Level 2 charger do you recommend? How do you get a tax credit on a Level 2 charger?
I’m a big fan of the Autel Maxicharger that I have linked in the videos description. It’s a fairly priced smart charger with a really good app that’s really easy to setup.
What is your consumption for the hours after charging? You have up to 8 hours of maintenence charging.
Just got an Ioniq 5. What cable do you guys recommend I charge at home? I need a level 1 or two. If you have any recommendations, let me know where I can find them, like Amazon. Thank you!
Very interesting... I wish the manufacturers would share this kind of information... On the other hand, as I understand it, from the point of view of the battery longevity, a smaller current is supposed to be better... not sure if there are any real figure on how it really impacts the battery life (again, something that the manufacturers could share, I would hope they know).
I’m curious if you are able to reduce the loss by plugging the level 1 charger into a 220v outlet as I’ve done with no problems for 3 years on my 2019 Ioniq EV (reason for me is mine is it’s a lease and it cuts charging time from 24 to 12 hours). I don’t get the same kind of display while charging mine as yours though, but I’d be willing to bet my loss is less than at 120v. That and I don’t have an 800v battery.
Fun fact, many EVs sold worldwide have level 1 EVSE included that aside from the plug on the house side are electrically identical so they “should” work on 220/240v. There’s a spreadsheet somewhere out there tracking this…
So, I'm just going to say no, do not do that. While it might be perfectly safe and the device is very likely able to handle it, if it's not rated for 240V you shouldn't plug it in to 240V.
That said, I have two OEM Level 1 EVSE (one from Honda and one from Hyundai) that do work perfectly fine at 240V - but it was a risk I was willing to take.
What do you use to keep your gray interior seats clean? I only recently got my Ioniq but would like to protect the interior without going so far as seat covers.
I just use Mrs. Meyers multi surface cleaner that I mix from concentrate. Just a few sprays on a microfiber and that does the trick.
Thanks for all your videos! I drive about 30 miles a day too and have been using Level 1 charging since I got the car 2 months ago. I'm in RI. I gather you recommend I get a level 2 charger. Can you recommend the best one to get for the money? Thanks
I really like the Autel units I have linked down below in the description. It's been my go to for nearly a year now.
@@TheIoniqGuy just checked them they are over $500 now
Checkout the emporia. Lots of features and high power for a good price. I haven’t tested it myself but many recommend it. amzn.to/3SNuUgO
@@TheIoniqGuy Thanks! I don't need the load management package do I? It's $200 more. Send me the link for the accessories you sell.
No you don’t need load matching. That’s only if you want to charge from excess solar generation on your home if you have them. www.ioniqguy.com
Question: What is the easiest method to calculate what it costs to charge me Ioniq from 20% to 80% based on >21/KWH?
Thanks
So let’s do the math. The battery is 77.4kWh. 60% of that would be 46.5 but let’s just round up to 50kWh because there are charging losses. 50kWhx0.21=$10.50
Other manufacturers give you a portable EVSE that can handle basically L2 load for free. Basic Tesla cord only requires Nema 15-50 adaptor to be purchased for $45 and the Audi Q4 Etron comes with it standard. So one can easily charge at home @ 32 amps without the expense for an installed EVSE. My question is...could I use my Audi Q4 (or any other non-tesla) portable EVSE to charge my Ioniq 5? Or will it cause my I5 to self-destruct? The wall mounted EVSEs are car brand agnostic...so I am curious if the manufacture supplied portable EVSEs are as well.
J1772 EVSE are all intercompatible. You car will request the correct voltage and amperage. You can always use any one of them with any vehicle that supports J1772.
Interesting. I've been using my 40A charger at 10A because I also only need to regen 10-15% per night on my KIA EV6. I was thinking it would help my battery life (not charging so quickly). Maybe it doesn't matter and I should just do 40A and save on electricity costs?
The main reason that high current effects the life of a battery is the temperature not current itself
Thanks for the informative video. I have a 200v 16A charger. Is that considered level 1 or level 2?
That comes out to 3.2KW, that would be low L2 speed. Here in the US a L1 charger is about 12A at 120V or 1.4KW. Level 2 charging is usually anything over 3.
@@SkaBob Thank you. Yes, that sounds about right. Hopefully then the loss is still less than level 1, even though it's low speed.
Are you sure that the dash readout of kW is actually the AC side? It may be, as that's what people would expect to see but on the Kona EV the value seems to align better with the DC side as it matches the OBD HV data. I've done a careful charging efficiency test on my Kona EV at 230V 7.2A (1.66 kW) and I get 80%. I charge the 12V battery first to avoid biasing the outcome and use a smart plug for measuring kWh that I have verified as accurate against another device. On the DC side I use OBD data, noting that the HV realtime current represents all on-board charger output, not just that going to the traction battery. To separate charging current from that current powering the LDC (to keep the car's electronics alive) I use the change in the CEC parameter, kWh entering the traction battery. From all this I can also determine that the OBD is 86% efficient (at the 230V/7.2A) and the LDC 92%.
Obviously it's better to charge at the full current where possible, 32A in the Kona's case, but the efficiency is not likely to exceed 90% at best. Hyundai specs the Kona's OBC at 91% efficiency and there's always 0.2 kW needed to keep the car alive.
imgur.com/gallery/eJujcW5
I confirmed using multiple meters that it indeed matches the AC input to the vehicle
@@TheIoniqGuy yes, you're correct, I checked my Kona today and indeed the dash matches the AC power level. I have to wonder if that's an OBD PID I can read so I could integrate that into energy?
What App are you using for the monitoring of the car data in this video?
Carscanner
Well now, this is very interesting. The problem is that they tell you to charge slowly every now and then and not only DCFC to maximize battery life. Perhaps they mean AC level 2. The point is the batteries suffer being charged fast all of the time, it's an electrical and thermal stress. Charging slowly is best for battery life. So what's better? To save some dollars now or preserve the battery performance and life? I personally charge mine with level 1 at home sometimes, not fully, just to top if off in case I have longer trips coming up. Else I try to charge DCFC, but only to 80% capacity max, unless I'm going on a road trip.
"Slow" is anything under a full charge in one hour for Lithium batteries.
Nice breakdown on the technicals of 120v vs 240v charging efficiency. Correction on terminology, tho: AC-> is rectifier, not inverter. Inverter is DC->AC.
Thanks for the clarification
I know this isn't the right option for everyone, but I use solar to charge my I5. I pay $8.16/mo in ABQ, NM, and I have way more electricity than I can use. Charging on level 1 a couple times a week is barely eating into my banked kWh. It's definitely an investment but utilities aren't getting cheaper.
Valid point. Unfortunately for me, my PV doesn't have any excess generation
What’s your recommendation of level 2 charger? Thank
I don't know if I can recommend the ChargePoint Homeflex anymore as I've had to have it replaced under warranty due to WiFi chip failure. I've used a Grizzl-e in the past and that is a very robust charger so if you don't need a WiFi charger, I would go for the Grizzl-e Classic.
A real question is why are you charging every day on the granny charger? From the sounds of it once a week on other charger would be fine.
That's what I'll be doing from now on. No real reason other than getting used to plugging in every time I get out of the car.
Man that was a lot of work just to convince your girlfriend to let you buy a level 2 charger!
Just kidding, nice video very interesting, I was suprised of the loss difference at various charging levels.
This sounds like an issue with the US, but I will say level 1 is still the cheapest for a long time assuming you would need to install a level 2 charger in your house. Level 2 is better long term, but the upfront cost is pretty expensive.
Is this specific to E-GMP or does it pertain to other EVs? Thanks!
From other publications I've read, this applies to any EV
This is far worse on E-GMP due to the 800V system (most other EVs are 400V or less) but it does still apply to other EVs.
There are three kinds of losses (at least) happening - the losses of turning AC into DC voltage, the losses in the car using power to run certain systems while you charge, and the electrical cables have resistance that causes higher losses at higher Amps so faster charging actually loses more power into the cable itself.
While charging at home, the losses in AC to DC are the biggest issue, followed by the losses for running pumps and fans and such in the car for charging, then the cable losses. When you DC charge, the cable losses can be more extreme, there is less loss for DC to DC voltage changes, and the pumps only have to run for a few minutes.
Well, let’s see,
Installing a level 2 charger may sometimes cost you up to $2k which would include the cost of an outlet, wiring, circuit breaker, level 2 charger itself. In most cases, people would have to upgrade service and the panel.
But let’s consider the lucky scenario with maybe a $1k spent for level 2 charger installation and other costs. It gives you 56 months to break even. Almost 5 years. So, you would start seeing benefits of the level 2 charger only after 5 years. And again, this is the most conservative scenario. For me it would take much longer.
I guess, the charging speed is the biggest benefit of the level 2 charger. Not the savings.
Isit better for the battery life if we charge on lower charge rate?
No. For Lithium, the rule of thumb is that any charge rate that would take less than an hour to get to a 0-80% charge is completely safe, and anything above that rate (DC fast charge) is only bad if the battery is allowed to get too hot while it happens. This car can't AC charge in under an hour (so all AC is totally safe for the battery) and has a huge coolant system that works while DC charging.
I will be swapping out my wife’s gas vehicle next year and i’ll need two chargers.
I have heard of chargers that will split the current so we can share when charging at the same time, like a public charger. Any recommendations?
Grizzl-e makes one. I would get that
@@TheIoniqGuy perfect, found it, the Grizzl-e Duo thanks for the tip.
Do you drive that much where you will need two chargers? We have two EVs and one PHEV and manage without any issue with one Level 2 charger.
@@markwright9025 currently i am using my 110v charger so I will definitely need to update to a level 2. And since the grizzl-e is only slightly more than the single charger i was going to buy, its a no brainer for me.
I have the SEL long range. I got it at the end of January because I tripped over it in the Milford Connecticut Hyundai dealer. I got it for sticker price even though they tried to add $4000 on to the sticker price. $48,000 msrp - $52,000 transaction price. $7500 federal income tax credit, $45,200 net. (I cannot even speak to my disappointment when my guy Joe signed the IRA AND 70% of all electric vehicles on sale the day before, including the Ioniq 5 and EV 6 and Genesis GV 60, Lost their $7500 federal income tax credit) I have 14,000 miles on my car and therefore about $3000 of savings because no gasoline. When I need a lot of power quickly I go to Trumbull Connecticut, a few miles away or Stratford Connecticut 10 miles away and use Electrify America 350 KW and 800 V charger.
I can’t believe you got three years of free charging and I only get two…… as my grandmother would say, it’s better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
I have solar panels on my home in Fairfield Connecticut and I’ve had them since 2012.
I get ~7000 kWh a year and it costs me $0.06 per kilowatt hour all in versus the $.21 or $.22 the normal folks will pay although I do sell solar and I have seen $0.25-$.26 half the time from my perspective customers. Thank you very much United illuminating and Avangrid!!!!
My solar system will produce over 175,000 kWh over 25 years and I paid $12,000 net for my solar in 2012, $0.06 per kilowatt hour. BTW: hardly noticeable degradation and / or losses on my solar panels over 10 years. My panels are no-name panels probably directly from Hunan and manufactured in 2011. The only difference in the amount of kilowatt hours that my system produces every year is based on weather, whether it’s raining a lot or like this summer and no rain at all. The last couple years have had very little snow in Fairfield and therefore my panels continue to work throughout the winter.
I like charging my car at noon time when the sun is shining on my solar panels on my home at level one (I do not have a level two charger at my home, yet) because when I go to prospective customer houses I tell them my car runs on sunshine and cost me literally nothing. Actually $.38 per gallon equivalent, 25 miles of range, I get - on average - 4 miles per kilowatt hour in my Hyundai.
This video is very interesting.
Fairfield Connecticut has 12 free level two charging stations throughout town and more are being built every year. Fairfield Connecticut has at least ~15,000 solar panels powering the town and the Free level two EV chargers that I use.
In Connecticut our utility companies will give us an $800 level two EV charger from juice box for $170 and we will get hundreds, if not more, off the electrical infrastructure required to put a plug, 240 V, in my garage. I just asked my electrician what his charges would be…… I will find out soon. I want to say there’s also a federal income tax credit for an EV charger and electrical services in one’s home. United illuminating wants to tell me when to charge at home and wants all the data on when I charge and how much I charge, that’s why they’re going to give me incentives. I will see if that makes sense for me and what the total net cost will be.
Again thank you, this charging loss video was really informative.
Sounds like you've really reaped the benefits of your panels over the last decade. I too have them (8.6kW) but my first winter was a bit of a let down as I have a shallow pitched roof and the amount of cloud cover we had was pretty consistent so I greatly under generated. I too like the idea of topping off with the power of the sun so with this new found information I'll try to do that as much as possible. The way I see it, if I continue wasting energy on level 1, I'm just pushing my pay back period on the panels further out. Thanks for watching
So, just so were clear, the savings you would be amassing per month is $18.54. Or $1124.40 over the course of a 5 years. How much does a fast charger and installation cost? If those values are nearly equal I wouldn't waste my money.
Get auto load balancing chargers that monitor which car needs power more and will divide up how ever many amps your breaker has
But would the losses wouldnt exceed the cost of installation of level 2 charger at home as well as the damage to battery from charging faster. Slow charging would preserve you battery. If youre leasing, fire away.
Would lv2 be harder on the batrery than lv1?
No
Just bought an IONIQ 6, you get 2 years free charging, so it makes no sense at the moment buying and installing a level 2 when you get 350 KW for free, thoughts ?
I felt the same way until you start dealing with broken EA chargers and lines of people waiting for them. Charging at home is a much more enjoyable experience. Save your time and leave the EA stations for road trips.
If you have a local DC charger that works for you, then that's nice. Most EA locations are broken and stuck in the back of a Walmart parking lot. You couldn't pay me to waste my time doing that when I could charge at home.
And "350 kW DC Charge" is marketing bullshit, these cars can't break ~220 kW and even then not more than a few minutes.
Great video! You should send this to Technology Connections. He keeps advocating that 120 V charging is A-OK for EVs and that smaller size 240 V circuits are better. For those people starting out with EVs, it's okay but ideally people should install the biggest 240 V circuit their house can accommodate for future-proofing.
After seeing these results, I 100% agree. Even a 20A 240V circuit would be much better. I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly prefer to waste energy. For me, it just makes my solar panel payback time longer.
@@TheIoniqGuy I installed my Level 2 charger on a 240VAC, 50 Amp circuit and set the Grizzley to charge at 32 A, just for safety. The cars shows 7.6 and it would show around 9 something if I changed it to 40A, but that doesn't change the charging time that much. It all adds up the same. If you pull 40KWhs from your house, it doesn't matter if you spent 5 or 7 hrs, it all adds up the same as far as your monthy usages is concerned. I too use solar panels, so even with charging, my consumption is never more than my panels produce.
Car scanner requests the car to be on to communicate with the obd, right? so your tests were done car "on" if I understood correctly, therefore the consumption of the car is including in your calculation, roughly 4 to 500W. if that the case, no wonder your level 1 is so inefficient. you need to do this test car "off" and monitor the current at the charger/plug
The car was powered off when I collected data and 12V battery charging wasn't occurring. The OBD2 port still receives power with the car off, at least for a brief time.
i work from home forever and will probably drive 350km a month. for me, a level 1 charger is a good start at least for a year.
interesting. I hate to be picky, but Kw is a unit of power, not current.
I just saw a blue Ioniq on the highway! Don't know if that was you or not!
No not me lol. I did just see my first I5 on 84 the other day though.
If 240V is more efficient than 120V, does it mean DC fast is even more efficient? Also, if faster charging results in faster degradation, does it mean 120V charging is healthier for the battery than 240V?
So obviously rates depend on your location. Your rates are a bit above average. Here in Utah we are below average and so that number would be closer to $10 a month. At that rate (no incentives in Utah) it would take me almost 5 years to break even on my charger and that doesn’t include what I paid to have power run to to my garage.
That said, it was worth it for me because I have solar. That helps pay for it. Still even with that math it might not be worth it for many people.
If you need 2 EVSE for 2 EV in the same night time period and if you are also 200A electrical panel limited to 48 A (or less) total, it would be wise to buy early 2 Technove i48/32A combos on the same 60A breaker so that you can dynamically split 0-100% of the total available 48 A output between the 2 charging car loads.
thanks for the info! I was planning to use the level 1 charger instead of the level 2 in order to make the lifetime of the battery last longer since replacing the battery would be too expensive
All Level 1 and Level 2 charging has no negative effect on the battery *assuming you don't regularly go over 80%*. DC fast charging at 50 kW is also not a big deal on this car. Charging at over 100 kW is ever-so-slightly hard on the battery.
In general, the rule is that if you can charge the battery from 0%-80% in an hour it's totally fine. Faster than that has minor long-term negative impacts. /
But there are guys who DC charge their Tesla every day for years and still have no battery problems whatsoever.
holy crap.
But aren’t we only allowed to charge up to 80% to keep the battery healthy longer?
Intriguing. I think the method is more important than the results. If you test your EV this way, then you can decide what level you're most efficient at. If a DC 25kWh CCS station is affordable in the future, I'd add that to the process. More cost savings can be realized by unplugging/flip the breaker when you're not using the charger.
Brother there is a manual that explains all you going through !! My model is different but all the charging and battery information is in the manual
The manual doesn't go into any details on charging losses at different charging currents. Believe me, I've read the entire EV6 manual. It's slim on detailed specs .
@@ArtiePenguin1 you in usa ?
@@enriquejimenez8322 Yes
Hello Ioniq Guy. Wanted to let you know we highlighted this video to give it added visibility. You can view it at Torque News if interested. Not spam. Not a bot. A fellow EV enthusiast and content creator. Cheers
Thank you, John! I really appreciate sharing the video and the information contained in it
@@TheIoniqGuy Glad you liked it. I have subscribed, and will watch for more opportunities to share/highlight your content. Your stuff is really great. Cheers,
My electric company charges 7.45¢ for charging after 10 pm. So I guess my cost and charging loss would be about a third of yours. It's hard to follow all of the notes at the bottom of the video because as I try to pause to read the details more closely and slowly, they are covered with the youtube controls. Better to put those on the sides or top.
Thanks for the feedback Tim, I never considered the youtube controls blocking on-screen notes.
Input POWER not current :)