Love the hypermiling tips! I often had only 37% battery left after my ride into work. Necessitating a 20-minute charge stop on the way home. Now I usually have around 57% or more left over. What a time saver! And it all boils down to rider knowledge and behavior… my Livewire One doesn’t even have a windshield right now!
Thanks for this clarification Ben! Yes, regen is best used when you would normally go to your brakes. It saves pads and adds some energy back that would otherwise be wasted as heat. This means on long steep downhills and when coming to a stop. You can also use the throttle to mimic coasting by using Ben's trick of watching the usage/regen gauge if your bike has one instead of switching modes. 9000 miles on my Zero DSR/X and loving this aspect of e-motos.
@@AdventuresonZero A little over a year now. Just passed 10k miles, mostly dirt. Completed the AZBDR in May and doing the IDBDR in early August. Might connect with Kevin and Amy in Idaho! Want to join?
@@AdventuresonZero I saw your MABDR video, it was great. I am new to TH-cam and documenting my rides, etc. Hope to have your skills doing this someday.
Great video Ben! I've been doing this on my Zero as well with my custom "Coast" mode with no regen. One thing that might be useful to know is that every time energy changes forms, like from chemical electric (the battery) to kinetic (via a motor that's not 100% efficient) is that you lose some energy. Same thing when you regen and taken kinetic energy through the motor (now serving as a generator) back into the battery. So by coasting, you preserve the kinetic energy in its current form and thus don't run it through two lossy conversion processes of throttling up and the using regen down a small hill. I also tend not to use cruise control on hilly areas because some cruise controls will maintain the speed even on the upper end and use regen by default.
Thanks! Good points, energy is also lost between components: tires to belt, belt to sprocket, sprocket to drive sprocket, gears, etc. by the time the energy gets to the battery, it's lost 30-40%.
I hope we see more progressive regen brake systems, way more effective than switching between modes. Like a left hand regen brake lever would allow the brake to be applied immediately without the 1-2 second delay of switching ride modes, and allow the rider to vary the braking power as needed.
So that’s just how I use it, you can keep it on regen and control the throttle to coast, it’s just a really small position. Much easier to switch and coast on curvy roads
Ben, good video, however, your logic is flawed for some riding situations. When riding aggressively in canyon roads, want Regen when you lift the throttle so that you can go deeper into a turn without converting all of you energy to heat by braking. Try this on a track under controlled conditions.
@@tl2913well that's my argument as well in Europe. Most secondary roads are very twisty. You need that regen breaking before every curve. No time for mode switching. Clearly depends on the route of road.
@@tl2913 you can go fast, or you can go far - can’t do both. Aggressive riding is counterproductive to getting the most range. Besides, I mention using regen only when stopping, or when you feel the need to use the brakes
Well sure, it makes sense, especially in the US. In Europe, the roads are so twisty (which is awesome) this would be impossible without a proper regenerative break lever (as discussed previously). Or a mode using the pressure on the brake levers to use regenerative breaking when enough and add actual brake pads when more is needed (as seen in another comment). But in the end, have you managed go below 50W/km ?
Yeah I think whoever makes a proper regen lever that is relative, more you pull the more regen is applied, like a traditional brake. Are you asking if I’ve gone consumption below 50Wh/mi? I have no idea what the metric equivalent would be but the lowest I’ve gotten is 98wH/mi
one more question, Ben: I understand your theory re: regen, but why turn down throttle and power? do you not trust yourself to accelerate moderately? You’ve obviously put a lot of thought into this.
Turning down throttle and power is a way to moderate rider behavior. For efficient motor and battery consumption, you want slow, gradual acceleration to prevent power surges. Turning those down is a way to offer more control for acceleration rate
That looks like a mostly downhill route. Can regen actually charge the battery on steep downhill routes? I live in Michigan were its too flat to try that out.
This describes one of the main issues I have with EVs. IMO, regen should be tied directly to the brakes for it to make sense, rather than tying it to the throttle. Regen should not activate unless you're on the brakes. It should work along with the mechanical brake, meaning the brake pads should only touch the rotor when regen is not enough to slow you down. I know one-pedal driving is popular among the EV car people, so sure, that mode should exist as an option, but I think most people would prefer to be able to coast in most scenarios rather than constantly be on the accelerator.
That's why I've been pushing for years the idea to force regen when pushing the throttle over its neutral position. In cars you can't pull the pedal but only lift it, in motorcycles (at least on Harley) you can push the throttle over its neutral position. It's not that good to tie regen on the brakes, maybe if we do it on the back brakes, because on motorcycle there is a concept of moving load that is different than cars, in some situations the stability is important, that's why we have two different commands.
Ford does this on the Mach-E and Lightning, step on the brake pedal and it will use regen to slow the vehicle. It will only use the brakes if you press the pedal hard to aggressively stop the vehicle. It's definitely a nice feature.
@@elbowsout6301Like I said, not applicable on motorcycles. You may need the difference to stay up, like on gravel roads for example, were even gently squeezing the front brake would result in the front locking and falling down.
Every company does it a little different. The old Zero motorcycles would apply regen on the front brake lever before activating the front brake rotor. I think the best way forward is a combination of both one-pedal and lever activated regen braking
That's not a regenerative braking system. It's a one pedal driving system. That's why it makes no sense. Very different concepts that manufacturers keep confusing.
Love the hypermiling tips! I often had only 37% battery left after my ride into work. Necessitating a 20-minute charge stop on the way home. Now I usually have around 57% or more left over. What a time saver! And it all boils down to rider knowledge and behavior… my Livewire One doesn’t even have a windshield right now!
That's awesome! Rider behavior is one of the biggest factors in range
Thanks for this clarification Ben! Yes, regen is best used when you would normally go to your brakes. It saves pads and adds some energy back that would otherwise be wasted as heat. This means on long steep downhills and when coming to a stop. You can also use the throttle to mimic coasting by using Ben's trick of watching the usage/regen gauge if your bike has one instead of switching modes. 9000 miles on my Zero DSR/X and loving this aspect of e-motos.
Nice! Great tips. How long have you had the DSR/X?
@@AdventuresonZero A little over a year now. Just passed 10k miles, mostly dirt. Completed the AZBDR in May and doing the IDBDR in early August. Might connect with Kevin and Amy in Idaho! Want to join?
@@AmpedRider I did the MABDR with Kevin and Amy last year - we had a blast (except for the wildfires 😷)! I think they’re in Scotland right now??
@@AdventuresonZero I saw your MABDR video, it was great. I am new to TH-cam and documenting my rides, etc. Hope to have your skills doing this someday.
@@AmpedRider Nice! Just keep posting
Shorter form content is great. Snappy and fun
thanks!
Great video Ben! I've been doing this on my Zero as well with my custom "Coast" mode with no regen. One thing that might be useful to know is that every time energy changes forms, like from chemical electric (the battery) to kinetic (via a motor that's not 100% efficient) is that you lose some energy. Same thing when you regen and taken kinetic energy through the motor (now serving as a generator) back into the battery. So by coasting, you preserve the kinetic energy in its current form and thus don't run it through two lossy conversion processes of throttling up and the using regen down a small hill. I also tend not to use cruise control on hilly areas because some cruise controls will maintain the speed even on the upper end and use regen by default.
Thanks! Good points, energy is also lost between components: tires to belt, belt to sprocket, sprocket to drive sprocket, gears, etc. by the time the energy gets to the battery, it's lost 30-40%.
Wish we had coasting roads here. It's all flat. So im using Regen to slow down firy sharp bends and stops.
You can still coast on flat ground, it's still beneficial. Try to coast up to stoplights and time it to roll through on green
I hope we see more progressive regen brake systems, way more effective than switching between modes. Like a left hand regen brake lever would allow the brake to be applied immediately without the 1-2 second delay of switching ride modes, and allow the rider to vary the braking power as needed.
So that’s just how I use it, you can keep it on regen and control the throttle to coast, it’s just a really small position. Much easier to switch and coast on curvy roads
Now, that’s a clever idea. Good stuff.
Glad you think so!
Ben, good video, however, your logic is flawed for some riding situations. When riding aggressively in canyon roads, want Regen when you lift the throttle so that you can go deeper into a turn without converting all of you energy to heat by braking. Try this on a track under controlled conditions.
@@tl2913well that's my argument as well in Europe.
Most secondary roads are very twisty. You need that regen breaking before every curve. No time for mode switching.
Clearly depends on the route of road.
@@tl2913 you can go fast, or you can go far - can’t do both. Aggressive riding is counterproductive to getting the most range. Besides, I mention using regen only when stopping, or when you feel the need to use the brakes
Ben, how does one disable the factory drive mode presets? thx
Video coming Tuesday on how to do that
Well sure, it makes sense, especially in the US.
In Europe, the roads are so twisty (which is awesome) this would be impossible without a proper regenerative break lever (as discussed previously). Or a mode using the pressure on the brake levers to use regenerative breaking when enough and add actual brake pads when more is needed (as seen in another comment).
But in the end, have you managed go below 50W/km ?
Yeah I think whoever makes a proper regen lever that is relative, more you pull the more regen is applied, like a traditional brake. Are you asking if I’ve gone consumption below 50Wh/mi? I have no idea what the metric equivalent would be but the lowest I’ve gotten is 98wH/mi
one more question, Ben: I understand your theory re: regen, but why turn down throttle and power? do you not trust yourself to accelerate moderately? You’ve obviously put a lot of thought into this.
Turning down throttle and power is a way to moderate rider behavior. For efficient motor and battery consumption, you want slow, gradual acceleration to prevent power surges. Turning those down is a way to offer more control for acceleration rate
That looks like a mostly downhill route. Can regen actually charge the battery on steep downhill routes? I live in Michigan were its too flat to try that out.
Yes, the motor can generate quite a bit of power. This hill usually gets me 1-3% back
@AdventuresonZero Can you do a video of that please? I bet a lot of bikers would be interested even if thier minds were closed off to ev bikes.
I'll add it to the list!
What kind of bike is this?
LiveWire One
This describes one of the main issues I have with EVs. IMO, regen should be tied directly to the brakes for it to make sense, rather than tying it to the throttle. Regen should not activate unless you're on the brakes. It should work along with the mechanical brake, meaning the brake pads should only touch the rotor when regen is not enough to slow you down. I know one-pedal driving is popular among the EV car people, so sure, that mode should exist as an option, but I think most people would prefer to be able to coast in most scenarios rather than constantly be on the accelerator.
That's why I've been pushing for years the idea to force regen when pushing the throttle over its neutral position. In cars you can't pull the pedal but only lift it, in motorcycles (at least on Harley) you can push the throttle over its neutral position.
It's not that good to tie regen on the brakes, maybe if we do it on the back brakes, because on motorcycle there is a concept of moving load that is different than cars, in some situations the stability is important, that's why we have two different commands.
Ford does this on the Mach-E and Lightning, step on the brake pedal and it will use regen to slow the vehicle. It will only use the brakes if you press the pedal hard to aggressively stop the vehicle. It's definitely a nice feature.
@@elbowsout6301 Damn, that's great.
@@elbowsout6301Like I said, not applicable on motorcycles. You may need the difference to stay up, like on gravel roads for example, were even gently squeezing the front brake would result in the front locking and falling down.
Every company does it a little different. The old Zero motorcycles would apply regen on the front brake lever before activating the front brake rotor. I think the best way forward is a combination of both one-pedal and lever activated regen braking
That's not a regenerative braking system. It's a one pedal driving system. That's why it makes no sense. Very different concepts that manufacturers keep confusing.
regenerative slow down system