Just to clarify something here folks, I sometimes slip into saying "veteran pilots" but the video is just about when is it a good idea to take veteran-level *Gunnery skill*. So when I say not to take a veteran on a T-bolt, I mean don't take a veteran gunner... but you should take someone with veteran-level pilot skill on that mech!
The value of a good piloting skill is often overlooked. For heavy and assault Mechs I think that veteran piloting skill is essential. These Mechs have high chances to take enough damage to force a PSR for 20+ damage. A knockdown is often the point that determines the outcome of smaller battles. Piloting skill also improves melee attacks and there is nothing more satisfying than pushing an Awesome down a cliff ;-)
Ok this is bot really a condonation of your analysis but a general critiques how a lot of number crunches look at dice roll modifiers I acualy do not like looking at it from the % of increase not that this is not an important stat but to me it is probaly one of the least important. To me absloutvpercentage increase is more important so yes moving from a 9 to an 8 or a 7 to a 6 increase your individual odds of hitting the same granted the 7vto a 6 feels less impressive because of your already higher base chance of hitting but the increase is the same in raw. What this means is that getting to a 7 is yhe biggest impact and making I to 8 or 6 is still really good 9 and 5 are OK but far less important and the differnce you gain going to 10 or 4 are not worth while at least in my opinion at least if you are paying a price to gain them
Great video. For those wondering the BV multiplier for a strait 3/4 Veteran is 1.32 and the modifier for a 3/5 is 1.2. ( Unless it changed again) Using the P-Hawk as an example that means for a 32% increase in BV cost to make it a 3/4 the common close range to-hit roll probabilities increase from 17%-28% to 42%-58% if your jumping. With a 3 gunner if you can pull off an attack run on a target with a +1TMM you have a 72% chance of hitting per weapon at close range. Same to-hit if they aren't moving but camping in light woods. This shows that the BV increase is worth it for some units if they are used correctly. It also shows the importance of a Phoenix Hawk pilot knowing when it's time to run instead of jumping and when it's worth it to Alpha Strike.
When it's late at night and you have the shift off, so your slouching at usual place and things are slow. Slow enough that you actually start listening to those stories from the handful of old, veteran Mechwarriors. Men and women whoever seen a thing or two, and a couple they'd rather forget, oh, and that one, skin gripping, 'if your in.... just don't do..' situation that is so creepy or so impossible that you can't help but smell the cordite and plasma. Yeah, that's when hearing that Veteran Gunner's first hand experience leaves you knowing that you haven't seen everything.
Really great explanation, a similar video for piloting skill would be good for new players but might be harder to explain the math. Its always a huge feels bad moment when your 3/6 assault mechs spends half a battle rolling around in the mud.
Theres also an underrated thing i’ve noticed with taking high gunnery pilots in units that aren’t BV efficient but are highly dangerous has an underrated psychological effect in double blind. A 2/3 SRM carrier in normal tabletop is a minor wasteful nuisance, a 2/3 SRM carrier in doubleblind turns every blind corner,1 high terrain,alleyway,and treeline into paranoia fuel because even high TMM units aren’t safe.
I think this video does a great job of explaining the strange phenomenon that is the "veteran urbanmech pilot". An AC-20 with a 360 degree field of fire, constantly walking, and frequently jumping would become notably more dangerous.
I tend to lower the gunnery skill of jumpers, units with long range/minimum range weapons (LRMs), off-board artillery, or if I know I will be playing an opponent that likes to use high TMM units. I tend to lower the piloting skill of brawler/melee/close range units, hovercraft/VTOLs, games I know will contain urban terrain, or if I know my opponent likes to lower their gunnery skills so they can connect with more shots against my units. Otherwise, I generally keep “stock” 4G/5P skills to maximize the amount of units I can get on the board. My group also does not allow more than a two point skill gap. I.E.: We can take a 2G/4P or 5G/3P, but not a 1g/6P.
This is purely anecdotal and not backed up by any form of math, but i tend to automatically (as much as possible anyway) put veterans in mechs with multiple hole punching weapons. Marauder, dragonfire, ceasar, some of the later shootier variants of the banshee, that kind of thing. They have a lot of firepower, but the punch is all wrapped up in one or two hit rolls, so i feel like i get the most out of them by maximizing those one or two rolls (again, as much as possible, depending on scenario or bv or whatnot)
So another role for increased gunnery is making a dedicated marksman in a lance. Having 1 mech with a really great gunnery means you can swat evasive light mechs and also win ranged trades with the marksman at long range, leaving the other 3 lancemates free to advance. So using the thunderbolt example from the video, in a lance of 4 thunderbolts, if 3 are gunnery 4 and one is gunnery 1, then it's cheaper then having 4 veteran gunners. But you can still deal damage to evasive things thanks to the 1 mech in the back with ace gunnery.
@@DevianID Nice point, cheap non mech units with good ranged firepower are great for this. Like a Schrek or a field gun platoon. Great strategy in intro tech games especially I would think, since intro rules make lights much better.
Been playing a modified campaign for a fair while now and I pretty much follow the same strategy. Though given the more objective based gameplay I tend to prefer 4/4 pilots, for a 10% increase the extra piloting has made the difference more times than I can count
With the Wrath TR5 I feel having an improved Gunnery is important even though it has two medium and 1 large X Pulse because you are going to be jumping at least 6 hexs (or the full 7 if you want that extra heat from 3 to 4) and you only got the 3 shots plus if you are shooting though trees or trying to use you LXPL at medium range to keep you at your enemies disadvantage ranges, etc.
I've never super understood why one would want to pay the extra BV for X-pulse lasers on a Wraith, given that it's easy to get right up next to your enemy anyway with the TR1
I like going to a 3/4 G/P if at all possible for all my mechs. 3 gunnery because I like taking a lot of jumping mechs and this helps offset my jump. 4 piloting because I seem to need lots of PSRs due to damage or falling. Also makes it easier to do melee attacks. But at the end of the day, I like running 3/4s or better, because my dice suck and I need all the help I can get 😂
Hey Trailblazer, this concept looks like it could benefit from a tier list. But instead of S, A, B, C, F tiers… …Elite, Veteran, Regular, and Green tiers.
In my MegaMek games I treat 3/5 like it's the default because the whole game feels a lot better to me that way. Long range becomes more than a just waste of ammo, medium range is still unpredictable and exciting, and short range becomes reliable enough to really reward positioning. Running or jumping into a flank using a 'Mech with a 4/5 pilot is generally disappointing because every missed shot is a missed chance to hit the back armour and make the aggressive move worthwhile, whereas 3/5s can pull it off and do meaningful damage. On the flipside, 3/5s are harder to get past in the first place because TMM doesn't matter as much to them. Trying to outsmart Princess AI when every 'Mech has 3 gunnery is very mentally stimulating.
@@agentoranj5858 And it kinda speeds up the game! I often play against the bot with full on elite forces on both sides and it's definitely an interesting challenge. Wraiths and Dragonflies are no longer immortal for one thing
I think that the thud and other close range brawlers should get a pilot skill upgrade so the can physically attack better and not fail thier pilot checks
Is there also a reason for putting veteran gunnery mechwarrior in a warhammer? Something to do with many weapons at differrent ranges giving that mech better "punch"?
@@robertbyerlay5040 My philosophy is that the Warhammer is halfway between the Archer and Thunderbolt I talk about. When you're using the PPCs you are gaining a lot from the gunnery skill but not so much when you get in close and start shooting the SRMs and MLs. But with a classic low leg armor Warhammer you might want to stay at medium ML range instead of short in which case the skill is more valuable
I see the argument, though I do disagree. The value of greater damage output through greater precision is enough to me that I prefer to take pilots and crews with higher skills. Every shot that lands is a shot not wasted, especially as the years get one and more powerful weapons become more commonplace (pulse, gauss, ATMs, HAGs) and doubly so with Clan pilots or crews.
That graphic at the end shows the Banshee. That is a mech that should never have a gunnery increase lol. It has pathetic firepower for its BV. It is a relatively fast brick of armor, kinda like the Charger. Piloting and gunnery increases increase BV based on the entire mech, so only mechs that actually have meaningful guns *for their cost* should have a gunnery increase.
That depends on the Banshee. The -3E? Definitely not. You don't produce enough heat to worry about making those shots count, just go crazy with 'em. The -3M, I'd consider upping the gunnery skill. The -3S, I would absolutely stick a veteran pilot in there to maximize the damage potential from all its weapons.
Suppressors (a mech armed with fast firing weapons) will require a veteran gunner to prevent jamming withs racs and uacs where jamming and clearing is an issue
My skill priority tends to be getting my mechs to 4/4 first before spending on gunnery. Dishing out and avoiding PSRs are so vital I feel. Allowing you to deal more hurt while reducing the enemies. The cost is also so much less, can usually kit 2 or 3 mechs to 4 piloting instead of just 1 of your better shooters. Spreads out the potential threats as well. Though melee is dezgra so this comment is worthless to those clanners.
Full agreement on not putting veteran gunners on your brawler mechs, and I'd even say any non-jumping unit... otherwise the enemy will just run at you to get those to-hits as low as possible.
@@jonbezeau3124 If you skill up your ranged units you definitely want to make your opponent pay for charging at them, one way is to send your own close range units up to the middle of the board and then if they run past them and towards your snipers, you angle your close range units to shoot the bad guys in the back as they pass.
@@TrailblazerBT I love this move with Victor battlemechs for the AC20 or one of the Clan omnis rocking UAC/20 and/or 6 ERML. Massive arm-mounted firepower and a torso twist to put it on-target
@@mathewkelly9968 Very on brand for Clanners though, "I have this amazing mech and I'm so skilled I can melt you puny Speroids at will... but I'm so expensive I'll be fighting you all by myself,"
My experience from many years of BT play is that players using such cheese combos are usually not very good at the game. They do not realize that the other side can negate their stat advantage by dregging them in a brawl. Clan Mechs have a lot of firepower and range but they aren´t tougher than IS Mechs.
I enjoyed the video, their Trailblazer. Call me old school, but I've never really enjoyed this battle value. I played before there was battle value, so I always went by tonnage, and that's the way I like playing it by tonnage. I guess the point is that you have to add up all this battle value just to play the game. On all the mech, you bring all the weapons on the mech, all the pilots, everything. Show me it takes all the fun out of it. So, like I said, I'm an old school player. I like tonnage. So that's my thought on battle value.
@TrailblazerBT Okay, I get what you're saying there, but I asked you again what does skill has to do with battle value. When I played back in the day, everyone played with a vanilla MechWarrior. So it came down to you moving your mechs and using the train to your advantage. And it's still the same today. You moving your mechs to your advantage and using the train. Of course, it always came down to that X factor the dice roll. Some days you can not miss other days, it's half and half, and other days, you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if you were standing it with your mech. And believe me, there's been a few nights where I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, and yes, I was standing inside of it. So what does battle value give you the advantage for if it comes down to the player playing the game? On how they use and move their mechs? Your thoughts on it.
Just to clarify something here folks, I sometimes slip into saying "veteran pilots" but the video is just about when is it a good idea to take veteran-level *Gunnery skill*. So when I say not to take a veteran on a T-bolt, I mean don't take a veteran gunner... but you should take someone with veteran-level pilot skill on that mech!
The value of a good piloting skill is often overlooked. For heavy and assault Mechs I think that veteran piloting skill is essential.
These Mechs have high chances to take enough damage to force a PSR for 20+ damage.
A knockdown is often the point that determines the outcome of smaller battles.
Piloting skill also improves melee attacks and there is nothing more satisfying than pushing an Awesome down a cliff ;-)
Ok this is bot really a condonation of your analysis but a general critiques how a lot of number crunches look at dice roll modifiers I acualy do not like looking at it from the % of increase not that this is not an important stat but to me it is probaly one of the least important. To me absloutvpercentage increase is more important so yes moving from a 9 to an 8 or a 7 to a 6 increase your individual odds of hitting the same granted the 7vto a 6 feels less impressive because of your already higher base chance of hitting but the increase is the same in raw. What this means is that getting to a 7 is yhe biggest impact and making I to 8 or 6 is still really good 9 and 5 are OK but far less important and the differnce you gain going to 10 or 4 are not worth while at least in my opinion at least if you are paying a price to gain them
I enjoy all of Trailblazer videos
So do I lol
Great video.
For those wondering the BV multiplier for a strait 3/4 Veteran is 1.32
and the modifier for a 3/5 is 1.2. ( Unless it changed again)
Using the P-Hawk as an example that means for a 32% increase in BV cost
to make it a 3/4 the common close range to-hit roll probabilities increase
from 17%-28% to 42%-58% if your jumping.
With a 3 gunner if you can pull off an attack run on a target with a +1TMM
you have a 72% chance of hitting per weapon at close range.
Same to-hit if they aren't moving but camping in light woods.
This shows that the BV increase is worth it for some units if they are used correctly.
It also shows the importance of a Phoenix Hawk pilot knowing when it's time to run
instead of jumping and when it's worth it to Alpha Strike.
When it's late at night and you have the shift off, so your slouching at usual place and things are slow. Slow enough that you actually start listening to those stories from the handful of old, veteran Mechwarriors. Men and women whoever seen a thing or two, and a couple they'd rather forget, oh, and that one, skin gripping, 'if your in.... just don't do..' situation that is so creepy or so impossible that you can't help but smell the cordite and plasma. Yeah, that's when hearing that Veteran Gunner's first hand experience leaves you knowing that you haven't seen everything.
Really great explanation, a similar video for piloting skill would be good for new players but might be harder to explain the math. Its always a huge feels bad moment when your 3/6 assault mechs spends half a battle rolling around in the mud.
@@samuelbaldwin2184 I will probably do one like that at some point!
You dirty Min-Max’er! 😂
Theres also an underrated thing i’ve noticed with taking high gunnery pilots in units that aren’t BV efficient but are highly dangerous has an underrated psychological effect in double blind.
A 2/3 SRM carrier in normal tabletop is a minor wasteful nuisance, a 2/3 SRM carrier in doubleblind turns every blind corner,1 high terrain,alleyway,and treeline into paranoia fuel because even high TMM units aren’t safe.
Really appreciate your tactics videos.
I think this video does a great job of explaining the strange phenomenon that is the "veteran urbanmech pilot".
An AC-20 with a 360 degree field of fire, constantly walking, and frequently jumping would become notably more dangerous.
I tend to lower the gunnery skill of jumpers, units with long range/minimum range weapons (LRMs), off-board artillery, or if I know I will be playing an opponent that likes to use high TMM units. I tend to lower the piloting skill of brawler/melee/close range units, hovercraft/VTOLs, games I know will contain urban terrain, or if I know my opponent likes to lower their gunnery skills so they can connect with more shots against my units. Otherwise, I generally keep “stock” 4G/5P skills to maximize the amount of units I can get on the board.
My group also does not allow more than a two point skill gap. I.E.: We can take a 2G/4P or 5G/3P, but not a 1g/6P.
This is purely anecdotal and not backed up by any form of math, but i tend to automatically (as much as possible anyway) put veterans in mechs with multiple hole punching weapons. Marauder, dragonfire, ceasar, some of the later shootier variants of the banshee, that kind of thing. They have a lot of firepower, but the punch is all wrapped up in one or two hit rolls, so i feel like i get the most out of them by maximizing those one or two rolls (again, as much as possible, depending on scenario or bv or whatnot)
@@gryphon3241 This is a good point, improved gunnery is how you get consistency with a unit like that.
So another role for increased gunnery is making a dedicated marksman in a lance. Having 1 mech with a really great gunnery means you can swat evasive light mechs and also win ranged trades with the marksman at long range, leaving the other 3 lancemates free to advance. So using the thunderbolt example from the video, in a lance of 4 thunderbolts, if 3 are gunnery 4 and one is gunnery 1, then it's cheaper then having 4 veteran gunners. But you can still deal damage to evasive things thanks to the 1 mech in the back with ace gunnery.
@@DevianID Nice point, cheap non mech units with good ranged firepower are great for this. Like a Schrek or a field gun platoon. Great strategy in intro tech games especially I would think, since intro rules make lights much better.
Great vid as always, the theory in these videos have leveled up my battletech game immensely
Been playing a modified campaign for a fair while now and I pretty much follow the same strategy. Though given the more objective based gameplay I tend to prefer 4/4 pilots, for a 10% increase the extra piloting has made the difference more times than I can count
With the Wrath TR5 I feel having an improved Gunnery is important even though it has two medium and 1 large X Pulse because you are going to be jumping at least 6 hexs (or the full 7 if you want that extra heat from 3 to 4)
and you only got the 3 shots plus if you are shooting though trees or trying to use you LXPL at medium range to keep you at your enemies disadvantage ranges, etc.
I've never super understood why one would want to pay the extra BV for X-pulse lasers on a Wraith, given that it's easy to get right up next to your enemy anyway with the TR1
This is very helpful. Thanks
Would love a discussion of piloting vs gunnery skill. Eg 5/4 vs 4/5 in a Charger 1A1 (obvious example there 😁)
I like going to a 3/4 G/P if at all possible for all my mechs. 3 gunnery because I like taking a lot of jumping mechs and this helps offset my jump. 4 piloting because I seem to need lots of PSRs due to damage or falling. Also makes it easier to do melee attacks.
But at the end of the day, I like running 3/4s or better, because my dice suck and I need all the help I can get 😂
Hey Trailblazer, this concept looks like it could benefit from a tier list. But instead of S, A, B, C, F tiers…
…Elite, Veteran, Regular, and Green tiers.
Indeed
I usually use the pilot BV values to fine tune my BV to get as close to whatever cap we're using as possible.
In my MegaMek games I treat 3/5 like it's the default because the whole game feels a lot better to me that way. Long range becomes more than a just waste of ammo, medium range is still unpredictable and exciting, and short range becomes reliable enough to really reward positioning. Running or jumping into a flank using a 'Mech with a 4/5 pilot is generally disappointing because every missed shot is a missed chance to hit the back armour and make the aggressive move worthwhile, whereas 3/5s can pull it off and do meaningful damage. On the flipside, 3/5s are harder to get past in the first place because TMM doesn't matter as much to them. Trying to outsmart Princess AI when every 'Mech has 3 gunnery is very mentally stimulating.
@@agentoranj5858 And it kinda speeds up the game! I often play against the bot with full on elite forces on both sides and it's definitely an interesting challenge. Wraiths and Dragonflies are no longer immortal for one thing
I think that the thud and other close range brawlers should get a pilot skill upgrade so the can physically attack better and not fail thier pilot checks
@@verysilentmouse Absolutely right, 4/4 is the sweet spot for them
Great video 👍
If an 11 or 12 is a PPC shot at the sole available target(s), like turn 1, I'll take that shot. That's not likely going to cause heat (or damage...)
Is there also a reason for putting veteran gunnery mechwarrior in a warhammer?
Something to do with many weapons at differrent ranges giving that mech better "punch"?
@@robertbyerlay5040 My philosophy is that the Warhammer is halfway between the Archer and Thunderbolt I talk about. When you're using the PPCs you are gaining a lot from the gunnery skill but not so much when you get in close and start shooting the SRMs and MLs. But with a classic low leg armor Warhammer you might want to stay at medium ML range instead of short in which case the skill is more valuable
I see the argument, though I do disagree. The value of greater damage output through greater precision is enough to me that I prefer to take pilots and crews with higher skills.
Every shot that lands is a shot not wasted, especially as the years get one and more powerful weapons become more commonplace (pulse, gauss, ATMs, HAGs) and doubly so with Clan pilots or crews.
Played with two 7G/8P Awesome pilots to get them into 4K Lance. Overall they perform better than the lights with 3/4 and 4/4 MechWarriors.
That graphic at the end shows the Banshee. That is a mech that should never have a gunnery increase lol. It has pathetic firepower for its BV. It is a relatively fast brick of armor, kinda like the Charger. Piloting and gunnery increases increase BV based on the entire mech, so only mechs that actually have meaningful guns *for their cost* should have a gunnery increase.
That depends on the Banshee. The -3E? Definitely not. You don't produce enough heat to worry about making those shots count, just go crazy with 'em. The -3M, I'd consider upping the gunnery skill. The -3S, I would absolutely stick a veteran pilot in there to maximize the damage potential from all its weapons.
Suppressors (a mech armed with fast firing weapons) will require a veteran gunner to prevent jamming withs racs and uacs where jamming and clearing is an issue
whats more expensive? getting the gunnery skill down or getting the sniper PSA?
@@Spartaner251 My understanding is that there's no settled BV cost for the spas
My skill priority tends to be getting my mechs to 4/4 first before spending on gunnery. Dishing out and avoiding PSRs are so vital I feel. Allowing you to deal more hurt while reducing the enemies.
The cost is also so much less, can usually kit 2 or 3 mechs to 4 piloting instead of just 1 of your better shooters. Spreads out the potential threats as well.
Though melee is dezgra so this comment is worthless to those clanners.
@@AnerDyfan I agree that pilot 4 should be a high priority
Watching to see how many times he mentions the Hollander
Full agreement on not putting veteran gunners on your brawler mechs, and I'd even say any non-jumping unit... otherwise the enemy will just run at you to get those to-hits as low as possible.
@@jonbezeau3124 If you skill up your ranged units you definitely want to make your opponent pay for charging at them, one way is to send your own close range units up to the middle of the board and then if they run past them and towards your snipers, you angle your close range units to shoot the bad guys in the back as they pass.
@@TrailblazerBT I love this move with Victor battlemechs for the AC20 or one of the Clan omnis rocking UAC/20 and/or 6 ERML. Massive arm-mounted firepower and a torso twist to put it on-target
You should talk to some Clan Players i routinely see 1/2 pilots in mechs with pulse and targeting computers
@@mathewkelly9968 Very suboptimal in my opinion but flavorful and fun to play with!
@@TrailblazerBT kind of not in a way , they make a mockery of to hit numbers , but yeh not worth the BV imo as well
@@mathewkelly9968 Very on brand for Clanners though, "I have this amazing mech and I'm so skilled I can melt you puny Speroids at will... but I'm so expensive I'll be fighting you all by myself,"
My experience from many years of BT play is that players using such cheese combos are usually not very good at the game.
They do not realize that the other side can negate their stat advantage by dregging them in a brawl.
Clan Mechs have a lot of firepower and range but they aren´t tougher than IS Mechs.
Find just going 4G/4P Mercenary is beneficial enough.
Oh my bad I do take Green pilots ........ on stuff sporting ArrowIV as the skill of the firing unit is pretty much irrelevant
No no no a mech thats going fisticuffs or melee must have a veteran pilot , unless you want to land on your backside when you miss that kick
@@mathewkelly9968 Yeah you do want good piloting skill on those mechs, I'm just talking about gunnery skill here
Can't have friends if you don't have enemies.
They are always worth it. But you will be outnumbered.
I enjoyed the video, their Trailblazer. Call me old school, but I've never really enjoyed this battle value. I played before there was battle value, so I always went by tonnage, and that's the way I like playing it by tonnage. I guess the point is that you have to add up all this battle value just to play the game. On all the mech, you bring all the weapons on the mech, all the pilots, everything. Show me it takes all the fun out of it. So, like I said, I'm an old school player. I like tonnage. So that's my thought on battle value.
@@richardnicholson3827 I sympathize but tonnage is really unbalanced and doesn't take skills into account at all
@TrailblazerBT Okay, I get what you're saying there, but I asked you again what does skill has to do with battle value. When I played back in the day, everyone played with a vanilla MechWarrior. So it came down to you moving your mechs and using the train to your advantage. And it's still the same today. You moving your mechs to your advantage and using the train. Of course, it always came down to that X factor the dice roll. Some days you can not miss other days, it's half and half, and other days, you couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if you were standing it with your mech. And believe me, there's been a few nights where I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, and yes, I was standing inside of it. So what does battle value give you the advantage for if it comes down to the player playing the game? On how they use and move their mechs? Your thoughts on it.