The WORST mechs in Battletech! (by battlefield role)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ย. 2024
- Today we go over the worst mechs in each battlefield category! We're limiting it to 3025 tech today, so no ridiculously expensive MASC+JJ mechs or anything here. Scout, Skirmisher, Cavalry, Sniper, and Brawler. Who are the worst mechs in these categories? Watch and find out! Disagree with me? Leave a comment!
#battletech #mech #mechwarrior #tactics #
Rifleman in particular was never designed for frontline use. It's primarily an AA Mech, which means it can be decent in the Sniper role. The lore on it specifically says that when commanders started using them as frontline units, they started piling up wrecked Riflemen. It does not belong in the Brawler category, it's an AA/Sniper Mech. It perfectly fits your own description of a Sniper: wants to hang back and hit from long range. In the IntroTech levels, since it can start hitting at 18 hexes of range, that's pretty far, since many IntroTech level Mechs average only 12 hexes of range. And yes, heat management is a thing with most Inner Sphere designs until after the Clans show up, and even then it's easy to make Mech loadouts which require heat management skills.
@@markvaughan7530 probably true. It can be hard to categorize some mechs outside of their niche roles(such as a dedicated AA mech like the Rifleman) the Rifleman just kind of sucks regardless of its role lol.
Agree with all but the Rifleman. Under no circumstance is it a Brawler. Treat it like a lower tier sniper and you have a chance.
@@jefffreese947 agree to disagree. I aint doin much with 2 AC5s lol
@@TheManyVoicesVA if you compare it's damage output to a centurion for the BV, it is slightly better on average. It's not great not terrible.
@@AlexDenton0451 centurion has way more armor tho. The Rifleman get screwed by having 2 large lasers it cant use. They cost a bit of BV
@TheManyVoicesVA I would genuinely say the Rifleman is better armored with less armor. while the Centurion does have 16 points more armor, it's distributed horrendously across the mech, focusing on legs and arms. It's torso is underarmored (13/18/13) with excessive ammo in those easily crit STs. The Rifleman has a severe lack of armor in the legs (12), which can be compensated for with hills. It's torsos however are armored a lot better (15/22/15), no ammo in the STs (CT ammo tho). I think it's much more well rounded for the BV, as even if the rifleman loses a torso it effectively still has the same amount of guns.
To me Battletech is about fielding bad mechs as well as the good mechs. Fully optimised lists are boring.
@@Ont525 U find it boring to put your list building and command skills to the test avainst someone else who has also tried to optimize their list? To each their own I guess.
I mostly play tournaments in Megamek, so I like to try and break open a tournament packet and make the best lists
@@TheManyVoicesVA optimization usually means easy mode for alot of community's
A bad workman blames his tools
Tbf there are some objectively terrible mechs, JagerMech is an example, just some of these aren't so bad
@@argokarrus2731 JagerMech is a fine, cheapo bully against lights. It's faster than you think, has lots of small guns, and the weight makes the kicks devastating. Where people go wrong is trying to use it as fire support like a Rifleman.
@@ewanrobinson6903 I mean if my screws are all stripped Im not putting together a shelf, u get what I mean?
I have 25 years of BT experience and I have played almost every classic Mech and I know how to make every Mech to work somehow
but some designs are so terribly bad that it makes no sense to field them at all (like the Jaegermech or the Quickdraw).
@@hermes7587 you clearly need more experience
"He ain't pullin a Chumbawamba" I LOLed. 🤣
@@TheBoardGameKaptain hahaha I thought that was a good one XD
Nooo I want all 30+
I mean yeah the best mechs list are helpful, but worst mechs are fun, going over why they suck and "What were they thinking?!?!?!"
@@NotMyGoogleID Hahaha AVGN moment. What were they THINKINGGGG?!!!
I think it's more helpful to show people what bad mechs look like because average mechs arent that much worse than really good mechs. But bad mechs... those are *much* worse than average mechs lol.
This is really contingent on what era and tech level you're using. I've successfully used the 3N Rifleman as a sniper. My opponent was too busy messing with rest of my force. The 3C shoved down your throat makes for a bad day. The Vulcan 5T can be an absolute terrorist, especially when using quirks.
Dervish is meh, but have seen it used effectively.
There are quite a few bad mechs, but that is part of Battletech's charm. Not everything is an optimal machine and some are complete boondoggles. Just like in reality. I think the early Clints are garbage, but have successfully used them to harass flanks. 🤷♂️
@@michaelfavela7237 the 5T vulcan is a decent medium laser boat. It's the anti-infantry versions that have like 0 armor that are terrible.
The thing about 'bad' mechs isn't that they are impossible to use effectively but rather that they are very dependent on the situation and not easy to adapt to others.
When your Rifleman can hang out behind cover and take potshots at the enemy, who is too busy dealing with the rest of your forces to take care of the Rifleman, that's nice and all, but it means that the rest of your forces have to make that strategy possible to begin with. It seems to imply that the rest of your forces have to fight a little bit harder and that your opponent should not have some quick heavy hitter, that'll just close up with the Rifleman and beat the snot out of him.
If it works, that's great... but replacing the Rifleman might make that lance easier to manage, more flexible to use and more capable of dealing with a greater variety of opposing forces.
... in theory, at least.
When you're perfectly happy with how things are now, no need to change anything.
I agree that the existence of suboptimal mechs in BT is something that I highly appreciate and enjoy about the setting. And even a terrible mech can have its moment of glory, when the stars align and the dice fall just right.
@@h.a.9880 oh 100%. We had a campaign where we got one of those riflemen. It was awful but it was our heaviest mech for a long time, and the guy piloting it liked to alpha strike....
Let's just say he got lucky on shutdown rolls and it managed to make it to the final battle!
@h.a.9880 I go in having no idea what I'm facing. We build our lists, pair up randomly, and play. That particular force was made up of units from the 2nd edition rulebook. The only "good" mech was a Thunderbolt. Sometimes, you go to war with the units you have. Picking some bad mechs makes for an interesting challenge and fun play.
@@michaelfavela7237 oh 100%. There is a cool tournament going in the MRC where you get bonus points for taking "bad" units. It isnt the same as bad introtech units tho. These things are really terrible lol. The Rifleman is like... why did you even bother with that 2nd large laser?!
It was fun playing with some terrible mechs in our campaign tho. We had a Mackie. It was glorious.
I really love the visual design and the general idea of the Dervish and Rifleman, but their performance is... not optimal.
With some rediscovered SLDF spacemagic, you can improve them, but the fact of the matter is, that there's other mechs that profit much more from a LosTech makeover.
@@h.a.9880 the Dervish suffers from trying to do too much. It is trying to fill in every part of the Battletech Triangle and failing to do any of them because of it lol.
I think it just needs to dump the SRMs. If you get rid of that 4 tons and put it into armor and maybe a head mounted medlas or something the design becomes *much* better.
@@TheManyVoicesVA In BTA I find they work out better as a heavier Witworthless. In Mechwarrior games the sheer terribleness of the mech really comes out. It's a death trap, either overheating or getting blown apart in seconds.
@@michaelbaker8284 100%, in MW5 the stock loadout is awful lol. I like to either load it up with a large laser and a couple LRM5s, or make it a pure SRM boat, in both cases I usually grab max armor and dump a few JJs
@@TheManyVoicesVA It isn't until the 8D and 9D variants that the Dervish gets any decent. And then mainly because as you say, dropping the SRM launchers.
But I think even with the SRM launchers, the absolute biggest crime the Dervish makes is having 2 tons of SRM ammo for 2 SRM-2 launchers. That is more ammo than you will ever need for those launchers. Even if for some reason you wanted to use split ammo types IMO. I would much rather exchange a ton of SRM ammo for more armour, or even more LRM ammo.
Heck one might even argue a third SRM-2 would have been preferable to that second ton of ammo, in helping it at least put out some more damage to keep light mechs honest.
@@Taurevanime agreed. The 2nd ton of SRM ammo is so unnecessary lol. Just put the 1 ton in the CT or something.
Ill agree with some of those choices. However, i would take a Dervish over an Assassin any day. Although im not sure what role the Assassin is listed as. Also, the Rifleman is classified as a an Anti Air Mech which, if playing with aerospace, does give it a bonus to those attacks. All other choices are on point, particularly the Hussar.
i think most assassin may be consider scout as cause of their speed or skirmisher .
Assassin is a scout, in fact, from the lore the SLDF planed to use them as replacements for their ageing Stinger/Wasp and Locust mechs.
@@efarias2180 Assassin is actually a good cheap kicker similar to the ostscout or spider. Just run behind bigger mechs and kick em. U dont bring it for gund hahaha.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I've never had much luck with it with the numerous games I've played. And for being a medium weight class, there are much better choices for its tonnage and paper thin armor. Not a fan of it, but hey apples and oranges. Always a good time when you get to roll dice, regardless.
The Assassin is NOT a skirmisher, it is a scout but not a good one. The main issue is the pathetic armor, specifically on the legs.
With proper leg protection it could a decent Mech.
Shadow Hawk is a mech that is good at slow mo destruction, it means you can play with your enemy longer instead of having a quick kill. It is similar to the Mauler. It takes forever to destroy anything.
@@josepablolunasanchez1283 that is a bad design though. You need to remove enemy damage as fast as possible, the best way to do that is by blowing holes in enemy mechs and/or destroying them.
It’s a good starter game mech. It houses all weapon types for the most part. Jump jets and moves decent for a larger medium. I see the shadow hawk being used as a lead element in a light lance filling a fire support mech for its lighter faster mates.
One thing I'm looking forward to when the Kickstarter stuff hits retail, is trying out a bunch of bad mechs I haven't played with yet, like the Vulcan and Cicada.
The Vulcan is a great 'mech. Just not against other 'mechs. As for the Cicada, in my opinion, there's one good variant, and the rest are best sold to Discount Dan for a handful of chicken nugget and a $5 gift card to Shoney's.
@@WolfHreda the Vulcan with the medium lasers is good. The Vulcan with the flamers and machine guns is just a worse firestarter.
@@A88mph Both of those were on the list of potential awful designs.
The Cicada is especially sinful because it is a worse locust that's 20 tons heavier...
@@TheManyVoicesVA I call the Cicada the "Rich Man's" Locust for that same reason: Less of a Locust, for more of the price. You don't even get the two-in-one-mechbay benefit in campaign play with it.
@@A88mph lol it truly is trash...
Oh the Quickdraw. One of my favorite mechs in Battletech. It’s unfortunate that it is… really, REALLY shit in most cases. A bully mech if there ever was one, and only really becomes mediocre fodder as time goes on.
@@more-pan6656 ya it's unfortunate. I actually like the ones with LRMs better than the Dervish, at least. Theyre slightly tougher, while still having that ranged poke and up close skirmish power.
"The Rifleman should be used as a brawler"
Meanwhile the Succession Wars officers:
"Ah, a man of culture. Anything's a brawler if the pilot is expendable enough!"
@@derptomistic LOL! I never said it *should* be used that way. Just that it's the only role it fits in the classification I did. It's an AA mech and doesnt really even do that well without quirks.
The Rifleman is not suitable as a battle line unit but it can be effective as fire support. Yes, the armor is bad and the heat sinking is abysmal
but I have seen the Rifleman pulling of amazing feats on the battlefield with it´s large burst damage potential and 360° field of fire. It is also very cheap.
@@hermes7587 it does have that going for it. Alpha striking with this thing will produce... some damage. Like mechs with ridiculous damage by spiking their heat are a thing. The Nova comes to mind. The Rifleman... like 2 large lasers and a couple AC5 popguns aint it. Plus if you are in large laser range, the armor is immediately a huge issue.
18/15 hexes in IntroTech isn't bad range. Missile boats are technically a different class and a lot of your PPC mechs are in a similarly bad spot for heat sinks (MAD-3R and WHM-6R). If you aren't talking IntroTech, range 18 5 damage 'pulse' weapons are on the table.
@@135forte things change alot when clantech rolls around for sure. I consider missile boats to be in pretty much direct competition with snipers. They both fill the long range support role.
LRMs are actually pretty efficient in introtech era. 2 extra hexes of medium range over a PPC is actually meaningful.
@@TheManyVoicesVA The main difference I can tell between the two roles is that missile boats are technically less defined than snipers. A LRM missile boat is very different from a SRM missile boat. Though to your point, at IntoTech level the less concentrated damage of a LRM isn't as noticeable.
my question as always - is this for tournament or one-shot games OR campaign play.
for tournament, these would require elite pilots to have a chance.
for campaigns - I use all of these regularly.
I don't think anybody leaves campaign mechs stock for long unless they're something like the WHM-6D or WVR-6M where they're pretty much close to perfect already.
@@imasspeons agreed. it also depends on the campaign and what's available.
@@bruced648 true, if your cash flow, parts/salvage, or technician time doesn't allow it, you just have to take what you're given.
@@bruced648 anything is good when you can refit it XD these stock designs are pretty trash tho.
@@TheManyVoicesVA the stock TRO designs were made for narrative game play - not tournaments. when you understand this about the game, things play really well.
An easy refit to the Rifleman is downgrading the Rifleman's L lasers to M lasers and giving it more heatsinks/armor/ammo.
When working on mechs I always take a "I can fix her" approach to it, especially with the mechs people consider bad.
@@Nostroman_Praetor if we can refit Id swap the AC5s for LRM10s, remove the large lasers, and add armor.
At first I was upset that I had the 2007 boxset and 2020 mechs did not have Dervish and Jaggermech. Now I understand why. They did not want crap in the initial waves.
@@josepablolunasanchez1283 hahahaha "hey look at this cool Dervish mech I got! Im excited to play it!"
-KABOOOOOOM
@@TheManyVoicesVA I learned CGL got the license in 2007, so probably they did not know about great mechs. This is why Dervish and Jaggemech were in that boxset. Miniatures were not great either. They were many, but not very pretty.
@@josepablolunasanchez1283 I'd be surprised if anyone at CGL actually plays Battletech lol.
@@TheManyVoicesVA In 2007 when they got the license, certainly not. Today? Who knows but I suspect you are correct. But I am sure they at least know by comments what is good and what is not.
@@josepablolunasanchez1283 lol maybe. They havent really done much in terms of BV balance or anything like that. Id like to see a BV3 made... but not by CGL.
Oh god the Quickdraw. You're spot on about it being a strictly worse 5/8/5 than a 55 ton equivalent, and the weapons loadout is bafflingly bad. The whole mixed range missile-laser loadout is done much better by the Catapult in 4/6/4, and the Dervish exists if you want 5/8/5. Although, if you take a Dervish it had better be refitted to address its many, many flaws. I'm fond of it but it's just as bad as you say and well deserving of the title "worst skirmisher". Also, damned by faint praise indeed! (You know what other medium mech can fire two LRM10s and be heat neutral at a walk? A Whitworth!)
@@StarlightSocialist ya I like the whitworth actually. It is a cheap mobile missile platform. Particularly the whitworth-2 I think it is? With the artemis launchers.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I also have a soft spot for the 'Tin Woodsman' .And I know which variant you're talking about, it's the first level two that was released. (I'll check Sarna but dash two sounds right) Artemis really helps with tonnage strapped fire support mechs to eak out a little more damage from the cluster table when you hit.
You can also take the Whitworth in the opposite direction: mount 5 MRM-10s (one for each torso and arm) I have a love/hate relationship with MRMs since they're so inconsistent and each hit is on average less damage. Their advantage is in massed fire though, and the Woodsman is the perfect mech to show it off. It's cheap in BV, this variant has a 200 standard engine so it's just mobile enough that a C3 lance can focus fire with 15 launchers. I wouldn't do this to a human playing tabletop but this sort of silliness is why Megamek exists.
I would love to see the full list. Even though you've impuned my beloved Rifleman, and my slightly less beloved JagerMech. How DARE you, sir?!
The JagerMech has the same strength as the Urbanmech... it's IRL reputation is so bad that people ignore it, until it starts HOOF-ing light mechs, lol. 900ish BV is actually fine.
@@WolfHreda jager is good for only 1 thing. Tank motive crits. For its bv it does that pretty well. It doesnt make it good tho lol.
That specific rifleman *sucks* but there are some decent introtech versions of it.
The Jagermech can be quite good once LAC5's become available, give it 4 of them. Strip out both AC2's & AC5's, replace with LAC5's,(each with a ton of ammo). You now still have 6 tons left to play with, to increase armour,add CASE etc.
@@semperatis ehhh ya u can refit any mech to be good tho!
I agree with all of the choices on this list and for much the same reasons you gave. The one i have to disagree about is the scout. The hussar makes a fairly good light killer like a wolfhound. The large laser allows it to be out of range of most mechs of the same weight class and the speed to out run anything that can hurt it. I was very surprised on how well it plays on the table top. A mech like the wasp i am not a fan of due to not being able to kick and use the SRM-2 in the same round. Making it maybe the worst mech in the 20 ton weight class.
i was thinking about that. Hussar has at least get away speed. which is a must for a SCOUT. you not supposed to engage the enemy. That why the ouscout with only tag as a weapon did not make the list i think??? not only does it have the speed to get away from any serious threat the large laser outdistance any mech that may try to chase it down. It only need to move and shoot keeping the range as long as possible before taking a page from the roadrunner and getting the hell out of there.
@@Marveryn i am guessing you mean ostscout and i believe its the OTT-7k which has the tag. I personally dont use tag while playing so i dont know how useful they are. The normal one has a med laser which makes it less useful then a spider. So i agree it would be a worst mech then many of the other lights. One of the things that was talked about was armor. Since many of the fast light mechs only have enough armor to stop a med laser. Armor really shouldnt be a factor when looking at what makes a good scout vs a bad one. All this to say i agree the ostscout is a worst mech then the hussar.
@@stanleycard6867 I have to disagree. A scout mech in most casual or tournament games isnt just there to gather info. It should be harassing enemy support units or getting behind enemies and kicking them. U need *some* armor for that.
This is why the Hussar is so awful. It keels over to almost anything hitting it, even a medium laser can cause a leg crit and knock it down.
@@TheManyVoicesVA the light mechs armor is its speed. Since any real damage like a large laser or ppc can one shot most light mechs. The benefit of the hussar is the large laser. Which gives it enough range to not get hit by its targets, mainly other light mechs. If by saying armor is all that matters then the LCT-1M would be the worst light due to having one armor in its legs, yes its a missle boat not a scout. Most scouts have enough armor to stop a medium laser thats why the large laser makes it so useful.i think the hussar is mislabeled as a scout instead of a striker, yes the HSR-350-D is listed as a striker but i think the HSR-300-D should be one also. Same as i believe the panther should be listed as a sniper or even a skirmisher instead of a brawler.
Some other mechs that can not take a medium laser to the legs are:FLE-16, FLE-15, FLE-4 and LCT-1M. Mechs that can not take a large laser hit are: Flea, hornet, locust, mercury, stinger, thorn, wasp, dart, hermes, spider, assassin and cicada for leg damage. I dont want to list all the mechs that have armor on their rear torso that a large laser can go thou but most mechs under 60 tons and many missile boats like the CPLT-C4 can be taken out with one shot in the back. Since heavy mechs normally only have medium lasers on their back to shoot at scouts with; the hussar can stay out of firing range of most mechs anit scout weapons.
For example, When fighting something like a hunchback you can sit outside of its range and win most fights with it. There are very few mechs that can take out mechs two times its BV cost at the rate the hussar can.
While the LCT-1E can do more damage at the same BV cost it is not able to get the higher speed bonus a 9/14 can as often and cant out range most of the weapons used to take it out. So i believe that the hussar is not the worst mech. The Flea is.
I argue that the original Warhammer is a bad pick for a brawler, but can be a good sniper that can either close to finish off an enemy or throw into the brawl near the end.
@@IndeedYaBoi ya the Warhammer to me is a bracket fire sniper. It has good armor everywhere but its legs, so it *needs* to hide behind a 1 height hill or building. The close range weapons are there to discourage flankers from getting too close.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I made a variant of the Whammer that removes both PPCs in favor of Large Lasers, then adding two more tons of armor (1 ton to each leg) and 2 more heat sinks for sustained fire.
The Hussars make slightly more sense when you realise that both of them are downteched Succession Wars-era monkey models. The OG Hussar had an ER large laser, which makes the whole thing make quite a bit more sense.
@@magni5648 that version is still pretty bad tho lol. Still not enough armor imo.
@@TheManyVoicesVA It's not all that good, but it at least makes sense and you can see there was an actual idea behind it.
@@magni5648 ya I guess. The ultimate skirmisher. Too much speed with not enough gun tho imo
Indeed...run it as a light shoot-and-scoot sniper, and you have a better idea of what it's meant for. Especially against an opposing force that can run out of ammo.
@@VulpisFoxfire light mechs with 1 big gun are always kinda weird. Like ok. You have a squishy little sniper that I can't catch. Good luck holding an objective with it lol.
I have always loved using Mechs others say are no good not only to prove them wrong but also they have been genuinely some of my favorites.
@@willtijerina5149 like which ones? :)
I love the look of the look of the Dervish. It has too much ammo in too many spots, but the mix of weapons and mobility is solid. Needs more armor though.
@@MrDmitriRavenoff 100% it is cool looking. It needs to dump the SRMs and ammo and put that tonnage into armor and maybe an extea medium laser. If you do that it becomes a great skirmish mech. A really good and easy refit, for real.
The 7D variant in 3050 fixes all of the problems of the 6M and is a really solid unit.
@@brianhenry152 it's pretty good. It still has some issues tho. Mainly that it's *expensive.* 1400 BV is quite chunky. Id use it tho for sure.
I just run my lists with whatever mechs my chosen faction has in the Master Unit List for that era. Clan Hell's Horses and Lyran Commonwealth to be specific.
@@JoeFixit-v5f that is a massive list tho! It can be fun to play the bad ones but you will get more wins if you play optimized designs...
I like the idea of the Dervish. I just like it better when it's refitted into a mini Catapult (2×LRM10 + 4xM. Laser) or 2 Javelins in a trench coat (2×SRM6 + 4xM.Laser). Catapults are quite rare in the lore and generally not allocated to the same house as the Dervish.
I also noticed that you used several Federated Suns native or favorite mechs. They like to believe that you don't need armor if your opponents are already dead and you don't need heat sinks if all your guns shoot bullets. Just ask the Shadowhawk SHD-2D.
@@jamesc.7216 lol I didn't realize I was leaning into the FedSuns roster. I also think the Dervish is better without the SRMs. Just stripping them and adding 1 laser and some armor makes a really good mech.
Clicked on this video after I saw wolverine in that little slideshow YT does with the thumbnails and came in here ready to fight everyone and God. But it was on your list of good ones so you escape the wrath of the honeybadger today.
@@centurion7398 Lol yes everyone knows the Wolverine is amazing! I wonder what a Honey Badger mech would look like? (Note, they are both musky bois and cousins of one another. Would the honey badger be a 60 tonner?)
@@TheManyVoicesVA I call my souped up Wolverine 6m the Honeybadger in mech 5. But yeah honeybadger would be a fabulous name for a sort heavier wolverine probably adapted to kill clan mechs during the invasion or something.
I like the Dervish, but I tend to use it as a fire support mech for a scout lance. My only real complaint about it is the 2 tons of SRM-2 ammo; there's never a need for that much and it's better with virtually anything else replacing 1 ton.
I tend to partner the Dervish with a Griffin, since they have similar ranges, and both prefer to stay at long range, but the Dervish has adequate close range firepower to deal with anything fast enough to close on them, and can flip it's arms to deal with flankers.
Skirmishers in general are pretty good mechs since most were designed for some other role and the better skirmishers all do that plus something else.
The only really bad skirmisher IMO is the Shadow Hawk. As a scout it either lacks the armor of something like a Wolverine, or the speed of a Phoenix Hawk or any of the lights. It does damage equivalent to light mechs, but at any range. It pays the weight cost for jump jets, but doesn't have a full compliment of them so it can't evade or clear obstacle like most jump-capable mechs. Most skirmishers are really meant for some other role but fall-back on skirmishing against stronger opponents; the Shadow Hawk is just weak at everything so skirmishing is all it's got.
@@cavalryscout9519 yaaa the SHD is really terrible lol. I think im gonna cover it in my next video.
I have to admit one thing....I don't get the wolverine that everyone loves. That AC/5 is just such a downer.
I think most people are talking about the large laser one, the 6M. The AC5 one is the 6R
The AC/5 is one of the worst, if not _the_ worst, weapon in BT. When it's your main weapon, you're in for a rough ride.
@@h.a.9880it's not difficult in campaign play to turn a 6R into a 6M, though the 6R is still no slouch.
You don't take AC/5 variants of the wolverine
The 6M as others have stated. It IS one of the best 3025 mechs. LL 2ML and a SRM6 with good armor 5/8/5 and not terrible heat management. It hits all the good spots
Yeah its why I upgraded the 3N during a mekhq campaign to pack twin ac10s, 2 medium layers and 3 tonnes of ammo.
Works pretty well as a sniper/AA platform
@@dragonthumbs7727 that sounds pretty nice! Did u add more armor? That is also very much a close in brawler setup lol
To me, the Rifleman always seemed better suited as the overwatch component of a Fire Support Lance. Other than that, as you point out, the heat management becomes a bit much for any practical use.
@@scottjuhnke6825 ya it kinda just cooks itself hahaha
The Dervish, aka, the “we couldn’t take the L and admit the HBK-4J is already a better 2x LRM 10 close support” mech.
@@piedpiper1172 hahaha. The Dervish is a different doctrine. It plays keep away. It just isnt really fast or tough enough to do it well.
@@TheManyVoicesVA That’s sorta my point. The 4J (and updates) is, imo, the sleeper of the HBK series. People really over look it more than just about any other variant lineage, but it’s quite good. It can survive being out in the open for direct fire, is a pretty competent body guard in its own right, and when playing with smoke rules but without vehicles is utterly priceless imo.
One of the reasons it’s good is that it commits to a role. It isn’t trying to balance speed for keep away and armor to survive keeping away, it knows it’s a hunchback so it just accepts the need for armor and medium speed. Plus, it’s half a Partyback.
The Dervish, and many other bad mechs, are bad because they aren’t focused. Ex: the Rifleman combining AC5s and L lasers. It would be less terrible if it had been designed to have 4 LL or 4 AC5, but the half and half only heightens how bad it ends up. It isn’t optimized for either weapon system and just… does not deliver. Any game that goes well for a rifleman would have gone well for just about any other mech with the same range.
I’ve only been playing coming up on two months. Twice already I’ve had an opponent forget the 4J isn’t just a missile boat and willingly turn their back on it at close range to face my 4G/P/H’s.
5 medium lasers are 5 medium lasers, no matter what kinda boat the role says it is 🤷♂️
I tried the Jagermech A with the LRMs in Mechwarrior 5 and it actually comes out much worse. Its like an even softer dervish with zero mobility or self defense capability. When being overrun is a danger the stacked longrange direct fire of a more standard loadout works better. Its fun seeing the different emergent gameplay in a live game vs TT or HBSBT.
@@michaelbaker8284 In MW5 autocannons actually have decent DPS because of their fast RoF. They are much different from the terrible versions in tabletop.
Not a bad video. Though I do think the Dragon is a worse cavalry mech than the Quickdraw. It has better armor, but it has more ammo for less firepower, and it's missing the very useful jump jets to really make it work.
As for feedback, I would have put the 5 worst mechs in their category, with the 5 best mechs in their category. Showing off why the one is bad by comparing it to the good one is really going to highlight what you should be looking for when picking for a role.
@@crackedjabber that's not a bad idea. Perhaps Ill do that this weekend!
I had considered the dragon as the worst cavalry mech but I realized it's actually not a cavalry mech. It's a skirmisher. It doesnt actually want to get close. It wants to skirt the enemy formation with its decent speed and use its range advantage. It has like 1 medium laser for close in work lol. It definitely wants enemies far away.
Also, kind of surprised that Hatchetman didn't make it to the list.
Also also, Merc Kickstarter's Inner Sphere Security Lance and Inner Sphere Pursuit Lance forcepacks review would be hilarious
@@NotMyGoogleID ill look into it.
Hatchetman doesnt really fit any of these roles... but it is pretty bad. The hatchet takes so much tonnage and so little BV tho, so it makes an ok cheap brawler.
Great content as always.
All of these are great as OPFOR in a campaign.
Your players will feel great when they win at 2-1 odds never caring they were fighting trash.
@@EdmondHiggins 100% let them face some pirates riding the shitty mechs noone wanted, or a garrison force with the leftovers that expeditionary forces left behind.
4:37 Hunchback-4J is the more appropriate comparison for BV and tonnage than a Catapult.
It swaps out the explosion-risk missiles for arm-mounted Medium Lasers and Battlefists, more armor, and effective long range firepower at its weight. It's not as reliable as a Swayback for the raw BV efficiency, but as a safe missile LRM platform, it can exchange fire just fine.
It's also far more readily salvage-friendly since Hunchbacks are freaking everywhere, so replacing something like a Leg or arm isn't as big of a deal as trying to find parts for a mech that hasn't been in production for several centuries.
4:46 Sixty ton mechs get horribly shit on in BT. They lose a lot of engine-efficiency, and their jump jets double in weight for no good reason. It's a shame because I rather like a lot of 60 ton mechs in Mech Warrior (mainly 3 - 5); they're fun to pilot and have interesting quirks to their designs that make them distinct.
But Battletech has no such mercy; mechs that struggle with peaking, rushing, or maneuvering in simulated 3D-space have zero issues in the truncated world of the tabletop battlefield where raw stats reign supreme. Dragons, Champions, Quickdraws, and Riflemen are just bad SW-era mechs whose jobs are often better handled by other (often lighter) mechs with similar costs.
I'm not entirely sure if I'd rather be loaded into a stock Champion or a Quickdraw in the Succession Wars; they're both over-engined and under-armored with ammo-bins waiting to go off.
5:50 The stock Jaegermech is the victim of AC2/s and AC/5s being woefully overweight for their effectiveness more than anything. In a sane, better-balanced system, those ACs would weigh half of what they do, especially if they're intended to carry ammo on top of that.
The AC/2s don't even keep it safe in most circumstances since they are direct-fire weapons, and don't outrange LRMs by all that much. In practice, this means that in most circumstances, if it can fire on you, you can spot it and counter-fire against it with LRMs. Even with scattered damage, any form of LRM is going to win that exchange because 2 alpha damage is pathetic.
The Rifleman is in a similar position; hell, the Jaegermech was supposed to be "Rifleman+". Impressive of them to solve the heat problem, only to turn it into an even bigger walking bomb instead.
@@atmosdwagon4656 so 60 tonners arr actually ideal for their weight at 5/8 *if you don't take jump jets.* Theres a couple variants of the Dragon I like. Namely, the ones that dont take an AC5 and instead use the tonnage for armor. The OG grand dragon is a good example.
@@TheManyVoicesVA Could have fooled me given all the dog-turds at 60 tons pre-3051.
Though I do admit, Grand Dragon is a damned fine mech, if only because it has some actual teeth that doesn't involve it crashing into something.
@@atmosdwagon4656 it is good. If u want a ground bound 5/8 mech 60 tons is pretty ideal. It's the JJ cost that sucks. The ostroc and ostsol are both excellent examples of super optimized mechs that are better than they should be for the BV. All torso mounted weapons and stripping the armor off the arms means they cost less BV than their excellent armor coverage would normally allow.
My eternal hate for the Locust.
Sacrilege
@PupOrionSirius26 mind explaining why?
@@PupOrionSirius26 Some locusts suck. The large laser variant is awful. The locust-1E is actually not bad tho.
So many of the Locusts are really useful, though.
The Locust excels at fighting infantry. A lot of "bad" mechs are only bad in pure mech matches because they're designed for combined arms.
I'm not a tabletop player, but i would definitely put Assassin on the list here. It has nothing good, it's does nothing good, it tries to bring a loadout worse than the one of commando while being 15 tons heavier. I never deen this thing rock, even in MWO, where it has ridiculous quirks.
It's not meant to be a Commando replacement though, it's meant to replace Sringers and Locusts. Faster than a stinger with the same weapon load out (+ an LRM5 for range); Not quite as fast as a Locust, but makes up for pure speed with a 7 hex jump, and it has more armor than either mech it's meant to replace. On paper it's an awesome mech... ON PAPER! In practice you're better off taking a Jenner, and swapping the SRM4 for an LRM5.
@@jumpinghunter9152 ya the Assassin was on the list... i compare it to the ostscout tho, and compared to the ostscout, it is not bad. It does the same job plus has an LRM5.
When Endo and XL engines role out the Assassin 30 is great. In BTA I have a single heavy PPC or Clan ERPPC on it and that's all it needs. Jumps 7 hexes and then opens a side torso on something much bigger than it. In MW5 the assassin is beyond terrible, any Vulcan is twice as useful. It can't hurt anything, it only makes sense if you have multiple lances and then it has a small niche it can fill...possibly.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I wouldn't claim the ostscout being worse than assassin really, ostscout wasn't really built for combat, it's a walking reconnaissance station, while assassin seemingly tries to fit both roles, not doing any job particularly well due to sheer lack of free tonnage. But maybe more expensive assassins would be better, i just think that spending a lot of money/bv on 40 ton mech isn't the best idea in a first place...
@@jumpinghunter9152 fair point. 40 tonners can be good tho. They are still light enough to be efficient with 7/11 movement profile. That *can* allow a design to be pretty sturdy with good TMM and armor. Imagine a Jenner-7F with 2 more jump jets. That is pretty much what you should expect in a good 40 ton design.
I think comparisons like this are fair if we assess these units in isolation, 1v1, based on design criteria. The reality is less cut and dried. A lot of a mech's value is situational. If I'm up against a fresh target, I'd much rather have a Thunderbolt or a Hunchie rather than a Quickdraw or a Dervish. But if I've got a beaten up target that is looking to flee, I think a Quickdraw or a Dervish can finish off that target easier. If you're under some sort of time limit where you want to get damage quickly in one turn, you might not want the JägerMech. But if you are in it for a good twenty turns, and you and the opponent have a lot of units to work with, the JägerMech can do some work for 900BV. Would I take these units to Solaris VII in a 1v1 duel? Probably not. But would I consider these units in a large force? I would, because they give me capabilities that are, in a lot of ways, unique.
A rifleman or Jager are both good for a merc company because they have the anti-air quirk. Outside of that, why would I want a Jager instead of an Awesome? The Awesome has the armor to go the distance, and carries no ammo.
Do not feel like it’s a bad thing to dislike these mechs for the weaknesses. Over-all good highlights of the 3025 mechs. It would be totally ok to come out with the other 30. Because of the mechs we all like and dislike we all develop a was to build our units an way to play.
You are right about the Hussar HSR-200-D being bad. An infantry platoon with rifles may pen the armor. Happens all the time in an ambush. Due to the Hussars mono weapon loadout a high skilled gunner of 2 or 3 is required. It’s a niche hovercraft escort mech with a defined tactical requirement.
When the Hussar is used with the fast hover craft from the Star League era or other and smoke tactics to increase the TMM to hits and offer controls of line of sight. A handful of players consider using smoke as fun or engaging play and most players argue taking damage rounds instead that is a reasonable argument.
Dervish DV-6M, ok no problem there. There are plenty of mechs that are good that I do not like. But smoke is also part of the Dervish. Set the location on fire or put up a screen and shoot out of the smoke. The Dervish is often considered in support of medium mech lances. I totally evaded playing the Dervish all the way until the Fedcom Civil war era where I ended up having to play with it as part of battlefield salvage and availability as the rest of the mechs were on repair.
The Quickdraw or “Quicky” is just an over-weight medium mech. The SRM-4 could be loaded with smoke again. I normally run it with the Dragon, Shadow Hawk, and Spider. Because of the jump jets and heavy weight jump kicking into a flank permits focus onto one side leg. Because of the Quickies light armor. It’s a difficult mech to play. It is an acceptable skirmish heavy lance LOS scout. You are on point with your critical thinking.
Jagermech having paper armor is 100% true. To many times I have taken flack ammo in the AC-2’s and gunned down Karnov’s and Warrior attack helicopter in the fist three turns. As a direct fire support mech it is a cold mech with constant sustain of fire. When the Jagermech is being played right the only ammo I worry about is the AC-2 ammo in the center torso and the AC-5 ammo may drain quickly. The Jagermech is another one of those mechs that gains advantage when standing in smoke or wooded locations with elevation. Most often on the opposite side of the of a hill.
I love the JM6-A as I may have the flack and LRM’s too. I consider that variant an equal to the Catapult. I do agree with your assessment of the Jagermech. There are some clan light and medium mech players that hide behind cover because of the Jagermech.
Yes, the Rifleman is a medium and long ranged brawler when doing direct fire support. I tend to evade the 3025 Rifleman for mechs like the Jagermech or Blackjack. The AC-5’s maybe loaded with flack ammo and the large lasers when hitting do reasonable damage to an aerospace fight or VTOL. My issues with the Rifleman is the low ammo count for the AC-5’s and the need for a good pilot to pass ammo explosion checks on over heat and that low head armor. Many a time I have pushed a Rifleman with a Spider or Ostscout and ripped the head off.
The use of the Rifleman as AAA is still the best focus. As an aerospace fighter passes over-head on its vector you do want a full volley to make the pilot do control rolls on a hit. The advantage is to make the aerospace pilot crash his fighter or lose control of the craft from the hits so they fly off map. A 3/2 pilot has been my best performer.
@@Magermh all good points. The problem with the Dervish firing smoke is that it runs hot if it's also using the LRMs. Unless it stands still, then it can fire 1 and the LRMs. I dont usually take smoke because it's really OP to stack defensive mods.
Avoid if trying to min-max and really win those games, maybe not avoid if trying to make fluffy or period appropriate lists just to have fun and maybe still win anyway.
@@VelcroSnake93 100%. U can also refit them in a campaign. It isnt hard to remove a weapon for armor or slot in a PPC instead of a laser or whatever
Disagree with the Dervish heavily, that thing, yeah it rides the hear curve but the variant you're talking about is from 3025, riding the heat scale is part of the point. Imho a 5/8/5 lrm support mech is basically incapable of being bad given it's long-ranged support alpha is totally neutral, it can run standard SRMs and a ton of alternate ammo. If you went close your jumping alpha makes fifteen exactly, aka, use your high jump speed to get into an enemy's rear, dump your arm guns, then jump away and cool off. It's a hit and fade mech, and really scary because of that
@@argokarrus2731 I think if you have the finesse to use it, it could do OK. Id rather just use a whitworth and put the extra points into a proper cavalry mech instead of this weird glass cannon skirmisher
I'd give a special mention to C3 equipped stealth armour mechs.
@@sidders1943 LOL that is an advanced level of awful that most players will never experience..
Actually, there is one good Stealth C3 mech - the Raijin II RJN-200-B. Bonus points for having an Active Probe that can't be used in Stealth. It should be terrible. But this thing's pretty impressive as a backstabber and Stealth spot, especially if you use Ghost Targeting rules. Go in Stealth Armor until you hit short bracket or mid for those ERMLs. Drop Stealth, enable C3i, activate Ghost Targeting and jam the victim's shooting while providing bonuses. It can trade fire at 8 hexes with Stealth up, good TMMs. I would trade the Active Probe for a Tarcomp and ER Small for an ER Flamer - the advanced rules utility is good, anti-infantry, vehicle, and BA is good, it trims 1t weight off the TarComp, and makes the ERMLs more deadly, less than 100BV mod. What was the ERSL doing?? Anyway. C3, not the problem. Active Probe, problem.
@@marcusshiffler2614 having lots of ewar gear can definitely be good. Ghost targets is really strong, so be careful about allowing it in a serious game :)
Why do we have scouts if there is nothing to scout? It is not like you bring your probe to discover hidden mechs in most games.
@@josepablolunasanchez1283 I played a campaign that took place at night recently. Double Blind makes things interesting when sight lines are limited. In those cases you really do want a fast unit with good sensors to find the enemy pings. I would recommene Megamek for that...
But then again, I put scout into the same role as backstabber/kicker for most Battletech scenarios. A fast unit that outflanks and exploits gaps in enemy defenses.
The Quickdraw was supposed to be a replacement for the Rifleman.
@@JohnnySmithWhite-wd4ey is that true? Interesting I didnt know that. They seem to have such different battlefield roles.
If everyone brings bad mechs then nobody brought a bad mech
@@dagoth-ursbeekeeper9119 this is true lol. But then that guy with the Awesome is gonna smash haha. A couple people have talked about doing games where each person makes a list for their opponent with the most cursed mechs possible. Sounds fun.
My heart goes out to fans of the "a guy with gun arms" mech aesthetic.
@@soupcake3092 they ain't good at getting up. The image of a blackjack or rifleman squirming like a flipper over turtle trying to get up is hilarious to me.
The real problem with the Rifleman/Jagermech is the AC/5 as a weapon, which stems from the fact that it’s not meant to be used conventionally.
It is a special munitions weapon, made to take advantage of uncommon ammo types. Ignoring that cuts the effectiveness of it in half.
It also should be said that both of these mechs are anti-air fire support machines, neither serving particularly well in mech to mech combat except against lighter machines.
The Dervish is fine, if somewhat vulnerable to ammo explosions. Its mobility and armor make it perfectly serviceable, with it being both able to infight or act in a light support role, making it an ideal supplement to either a battle line or fire support lance. The only real issue is the SRM 2s, which are an inferior weapon choice.
The Hussar is a mech made to avoid engagements. It is a fast Raider, a high speed flanker a recon VTOL with hands and mech sensors. Its job is not to engage, but to get in fast and leave before the enemy can reach it, with a longer range gun than most scout mechs have as a deterrent.
The QuickDraw is fine. Sure it’s not superior to the infamous three 55 tonners, but it can tangle with any of them and come out on top. If anything, its real flaw is the two rear facing lasers, which only make sense in a larger battle with scout mechs trying to get back shots.
@@ardanblade641 I agree the AC5 is much improved with say, precision ammo. Idk if it is *meant* to use those by design though.
Id usually prefer a Whitworth to a Dervish straight up. It's just so much cheaper with largely the same capabilities.
I'd pretty confidently say that the Hussar is a bad design. What you are describing is the Ostscout. If it really is meant as a raider it should have hands, jump jets, and limited weaponry. Losing a fight to an infantry platoon is pretty pathetic, and that is something the Hussar is capable of.
The Quickdraw will not beat a Wolverine lol. Maybe a Shadow Hawk. It will probably beat a Griffin, but that's because the Griffin isn't designed to fight things straight up. It's a dedicated sniper with mobility to keep things away from itself.
Making bad mechs cimbat useful is actually pretty fun for me. the joy of victory is all that more sweet when you did it with crap mechs you worked on for ages to get to work.
really feels like your a late succession wars, low tier down on your luck merc unit making do with what scrap you can afford or salvage. It all started because i stripped the large lasers for 2 extra medium lasers, swapped for UAC5s and added a heatsink and some armor to the 3N Rifleman. Does it ever compare to the best brawlers? Lmao
no. it doesnt. but its adequate for its job now and can still fill the air with lead if someone is rude enough to fly without my permission
@@marsar1775 if you can refit things, pretty much any design can be very good. The problem is that usually people dont like customs at the table.
I had completely forgotten about the dervish.
The other 4 are on my list of never use that POS.
@@snarkymcsnarkface1863 I think the dervish might be the best of the 5, like the most useable. But that has much more to do with 55 ton 5/8/5 mechs being really good than the design being good. It's kind of just a really expensive whitworth. I think it would be an amazing mech if it just removed the SRM2s.
What I like to do in Mechwarrior/Battletech PC is grab max armor and either jam it with SRMs and blow people's legs off, or grab like 3 LRM 5s and a large laser with a couple small or medium lasers, depending on if I have mods on or not for weight considerations, double heat sinks, etc.
In mech 5 mercs a take the dervish and equipp all srms . Its basically a kintaro with jump jets . Then run around and hit the back armor of other mechs with srm spam. Great way to rack up on kills.
@@777dragonborn I remember seeing people use SRMs to spam leg shots and blow off legs. They spread over torsos and arms, but if u aim low, you do all the damage to the legs.
It is a great mech in Battletech PC as well. Lots of missile slots.
Firebee gets so hot for achieving so little normally.
@@AbokaseeRed oh man that is an interesting mech... i have never used one lol.
Great video! Looking forward to more videos.
@@madcat3525 tyvm! I look forward to making them :) check out my back catalogue. Lots of great stuff in there!
This is the first time I'd heard of the 'Lineholder'...and looking it up, it turns out to be a 3025-era-style design in 3058?
@@VulpisFoxfire it's a great mech. Solid poke at range, decent close range firepower, good armor. Nothing to hate there.
If you’re putting a Rifleman in the Battleline; You’ve already fucked up (Avid Rifleman Pilot here)
@@Falamee158 I understand it's for AA... but like if you arent facing ASFs, then it has to do *something.*
@@TheManyVoicesVA The Rifleman, of any build or variety is an AA Mech first, I will give that, but is is a Fire Support Mech second. The 'Sniper' category is correct in that it is best optimized for such a role, not as a brawler as you suggest.
@@Falamee158 only has mid range weapons, I wouldnt call the blackjack a sniper despite having longer range. It's a skirmisher at best. Without the JJs the Rifleman doesnt function as a skirmisher though... it's a pretty poor sniper if it is one.
I kinda like the Dervish but really I'd replace the SRMs with another pair of Medium Lasers and either more LRM ammo or heat sinks or a little more armor.
@@SoloAxlion that is a solid refit. Alternatively, replace them with 2 LRM 5s, and put 2 more LRM 5s in place of the LRM 10s. Then grab 1 ton of extra armor and 1 ton of extra ammo if u want more longevity. I just go for 2 tons of armor personally.
Definitely a pt 2 or even 3 would be sick of this
i both agree and disagree with the last one, and that fitting and reason alone is why if/when i get a Rifleman, i am fitting it out to be a proper sniper
now then, imo worse 'Mech ever? the entire chassis line of the Cicada, don't @ me
@@st4rm4st3r the cicada is only marginally worse than the charger for it’s BV. In universe the cicada is a complete failure but in tabletop it is a great charge stick for sub 700 bv. It is overwhelming better than the Introtech riflemen.
@@hollyone75 i always refit my Rifleman with better weapons, so yeah, also in the PC games, the Cicada is more believable as to why it failed as a design in universe
@@hollyone75 being marginally worse than the charger is pretty bad XD
@@st4rm4st3r Just looking at stock designs here. But ya I mean, strip out the lasers and stick in a PPC and a couple heat sinks and armor, and u have a decent support unit.
@@TheManyVoicesVA You mean, like the introtech CDA-3C? Or the advanced-rules CDA-3MA (snub PPC), -3F (ERPPC) or -3P (Heavy PPC)?
Yeah, Cicadas with PPCs are definitely a thing.
Good list. Personally, I think any mech with less than 90% maximum armor is a waste. What good is firepower if you're not around to use it?
@@chrisfisher4503 some mechs with less armor are ok. The Ostsol comes to mins. Dump all the armor off the arms and you can be really BV efficient. As long as you have good breakpoints (10, 15, 20, 22, etc) I can make it work.
Maybe the Dervish, Quickdraw and Rifleman aren’t great on tabletop, but I’ve gotten some solid results from them in Mechwarrior 5, all in stock loadouts
@@davepowers3194 really? I always strip the SRMs and add a bunch of armor. I usually strap on like 3 LRM 5s and a large laser
@@TheManyVoicesVA it’s all about aim and timing
The Blackjack is one of my least favorite. It's supposed to be fire support, but two AC/2's and four med lasers and 4/6/4 move are a weird load out for long range support. Drop the jets and all the weapons and you could swap in any two other guns.
Many BT units are often bad for two reasons. The first are the ones based on the mecha cartoons, Macross and Dougram. Here they were designed so that they reflected what the, ahem, borrowed images looked like. Often these are not optimal configurations. The second is that I believe it was somewhat intentional. I remember back in the 80's arguing with my friends on how to make those stock designs, 'better'. We all had slightly different ideas and so, after a bit of redesign, using the mech construction rules in the back of Battletech and Citytech we would then test those ideas out. It was there to encourage that.
Nowadays, I prefer looking at BT and seeing it as a game that embraces the maxim, 'you fight with the units you have, not the units you want'. Wonky designs, specialist units thrown into the fray because the Rifleman, like any AA unit can shoot ground targets if you lower the guns a little, and some units just being there because they were white elephants but now, balls deep into the Succession Wars what have you got left?
@@Willydjable this is a fun approach. I played a campaign where we had to salvage some whacky stuff. We had a Mackie and a Banshee among other things.
@@TheManyVoicesVA A Mackie? You knock over some poor planet's museum for that?
@@Willydjable lol we were fighting pirates. The GM had some whacky units. There was one mission where we just fought a bunch of industrialmechs lol
In MW5 I swap pretty much all the weapons out on the Rifleman and Jaegarmech.
Rifleman gets only medium lasters and I swap the ACs for 2s. It's just in the lineup for killing the chaff units like vtols and turrets and light tanks.
Jaeger gets 4 AC 2s and a lot of new armor. Same role as Rifleman. The AI lancemates are terrible early on, so the main purpose of them is to soak a little damage and kill the chaff.
I would play neither in TT unless I was gamemastering an OpFor.
@@joseph1150 killing your players with an entire lance of Jagermechs would be absolutely hilarious lol.
@@TheManyVoicesVA It would be, but they are so bad it's unlikely. Its a way to let them beat up on heavies early on while not risking any players wanting to salvage them.
@@joseph1150 hahahaha they will just sell the scrap...
@@TheManyVoicesVA Yeah, but they are ammo bombs, not a lot left to salvage.
@@joseph1150 true enough. They don't always die to ammo crits tho XD
The Hoplite is probably my most disliked Mech. Probably call it Cavalry or Brawler in these categories.
"Here's an AC/10, an LRM 5 and superfluous heat sinks. Don't run out of ammo. Good luck."
@@michaelblum410 yaaa the Hoplite is a real stinker.
I love that BT has objectively poor designs. Also as a GM these are great to throw at my players.
@@jarettduker1507 oh I mean a marauder is scary if a merc company only has a light or medium lance. It still has alot of firepower.
While some i have used and some i haven't I will state personally to me so far has been the commando. Too slow to scout, not enough armor or speed to survive skirmishing. Everytime i have attempted to use it in combat it the moment it gets looked at it gets torn into.
@@matthewgrabowski1355 it's on the list but.. what do you even call the commando? I would say it's an ultra light striker with focus on firepower.
It isnt rly meant to scout IMO. It's built to run behind something and blast it with SRMs. U need to lead your enemy into an ambush with it for it to have any effect. So ya, it's awful.
Jagermech? Heck, just bring 2 Hollanders instead :P
@@jiiaga5017 hell ya brother! I will say though, the Hollander costs almost as much as a jager lol.
Solid list. I also dislike the Cicada and Hermes II. They hit like 20-tonners!
@@louiskemner3216 they are weird mechs for real. The cicada is a big locust lol.
the Dervish isn't a "skirmisher" its medium/mobile fire support It is extremely useful for providing mobile IDF in heavy terrain. It is faster and more robust than the Whitworth. I attach mine to medium lances to provide them with fire support, work great with Griffin, Quickdraw, Shadow Hawk and Wolverine units. The Catapult isn't as mobile, and would slow the unit down. Very bad in some situations, such as raids.
Not sure what you mean by "cavalry mech" ALL mechs are mobile 'cavalry' I assume you mean a flanker (which would also be a 'skirmisher') The Quickdraw isn't as efficient as as some 55ton mechs, but that doesn't make it a bad mech. The problem is the rear mounted weapons. ALL of the mechs weapons should be mounted forward, which would give the mech a respectable amount of close range firepower for its size supported by LRMs for long range fire. This mech is a decent raider, with 5 jump and free hands, it is great for grab-and-go missions and makes a decent command mech for these missions.
The standard AC-5 is the worst weapon in the game. the AC-2 is slightly better (by virtue of being lighter and having longer range) the Jagermech carries 2 of each, These crappy weapons make it perhaps the worst heavy mech ever published (at-least the worst without an XL-EN) There is yet to be a decent upgrade of the mech published. It is just junk. A simple upgrade, replacing the ACs with LBX or Light versions, Endo or FF (though not necessary) CASE and more armor could make this into a decent mech - even a field upgrade, swapping out LBXs across--the-board adding CASE and more armor would make it a decent crit-seeker
NO Rifleman ever made was a "brawler" the Rifleman is an air defense/fire support mech. AC-5s had the 2nd longest range (tied with the PPC) of any of the original weapons. Only LRMs had longer range. It wasn't until CityTech came out that the AC-2 was introduced, making one 2pt weapon that could out range the AC-5, so, yes it is a long range weapon. The problem with the -3N is not the Large Lasers. The problem is the same as most large 3025 mechs, the AC-5, (as stated) the worst weapon in the entire game. too heavy, too weak and carries limited volatile ammo, and the -3N carries 2 of these disasters. Don't replace the LL, replace both AC-5s with literally ANYTHING else and the mech improves. My upgrade (one I did abotu 40 years ago) strips out the ML (which are really quite useless) and replaces the AC-5s with 2 more Large Lasers. I save enough weight to add 7 heat sinks and armor. this gives the mech the ability to fire one arm while walking without overheating, it can also unleash a full alfa-strike (4x8pt LL shots), overheat, not explode (as it has no ammo to explode) and cool off the next turn - before an attaching ASF can swing around for another attack, meaning it will have to face 4 LL every time it sweeps in.
@@randyfant2588 It is kind of the definition of a skirmisher. It's dedicating 6 tons to close range weapons. That is a significant investment. It also invests heavily in mobility. What *is* a skirmisher if the Dervish isn't?
Dervish definitely fits a more firesupport role.
@@plaguebearerbob8882 idk man 6 tons dedicated to close support is alot for a pure long range mech. Partly due to the inefficient SRM2s with 2 tons of ammo but still.
I don't think the Dervish is as bad a skirmisher as you make it out to be. You know what has less damage, less armor, less mobility, and less cachet as a skirmisher - while being the exact same tonnage role, and brackets? The Shadow Hawk SHD-2D2. It's supposed to skirmish, but all it does is die - it doesn't even have the decency to be significantly cheaper than the Derv. If they moved the Derv's JJs to the torsos instead of the legs, the crits would be reasonably padded and the Dervish wouldn't be as bad - it technically has armor and def has mobility. It's just too expensive for what it does; a mild sin at best.
@@marcusshiffler2614 hmm it is quite a bit cheaper actually, but ya the 2D2 also sucks ass. It has an AC5. Any mech with an AC5 or AC2 usually is kind of crap because they are just ridiculously inefficient.
I disagree on the Hussar. Not because your analysis of it as a scout is flawed. I do not think it fits how you define scout (get close and hunt back armour, basically). I consider the Hussar to be a skirmisher. Lurking at 10+ hexes with a +3 movement mod from walking is really quite hard to connect with (unless the field is flooded with elite PPC gunners - but then every scout is dead on arrival). A couple of hits might end it, but it is an ideal "you cannot be bothered to try, can you?" design.
Everyone is welcome to their opinion lol. It is more of a skirmisher, but even in that category, there are better mechs. The PPC Cicada is even better than the Hussar, which is kind of pathetic tbh.
kinda hard to take someone seriously who thinks a Rifleman is a brawler.
Anything with all mid range weapons is categorized as a brawler in my mind. It's just a bad one.
You know I find it interesting how opinions seem to differ based on what you use to play Battletech. A lot of the mechs mentioned are bad no matter what way you play, but the difference in mindset usually comes down to whether you play on MegaMek or tabletop. Most MegaMek players seem to only play with the best units as often as possible, while i notice a lot of tabletop players, while not making bad lists, will often bring much more variety of units to the table over a lot of games
@@RyeFields probably because they own that Jagermech model or whatever and *they're gonna use it damnit* lmao
@@TheManyVoicesVA well as a tabletop player, I've used a lot of mechs I don't have the model for just to see if they perform as bad as people say or I'm a bit over on BV and need to downgrade to a different mech because I rarely ever increase my pilots to more than 3/4 or 4/4 on pulse boats.
@@RyeFields Ah interesting. Ya I am always a hyper optimizer. I don't like playing bad mechs. However, mechs that are sub optimal but serve a purpose... Those are interesting. The Charger is a good example. It can absorb alot of fire for its cost, and hits really hard in melee if the opponent ignores it.
The light SRM carrier also has my interest. It is super cheap and carries a big punch on a reasonably mobile little platform with a turret. 2 of them is under 1000 BV and brings 60 SRMs. That is ALOT of damage lol.
If you play the Dervish as a skirmisher of course it is bad. It is the long range fire support for medium lances. In your categorization that makes it a sniper and the lowest BV one you can get without going into vehicles.
Also any list of bad mechs that leaves out the Charger? LOL.
@@KenS1267 Huh? Dude if I want a sniper with 2 LRM 10s Ill get a Whitworth. In no faction is the dervish a cheap fire support mech. The Dervish is very clearly designed to be able to at least defend itself at close range. 4 tons of close range weapons is not nothing.
I grew up with MW2. There were mechs innMW2 mercs that were not released in 2020. I was looking for them. Some even were in the 2007 box and I wanted newer ones. But now I see they were garbage. I never played them. It was just for completionist purposes.
@@aquarius5719 The Quickdraw is the coolest looking bad mech lol. Worthy to add to the collection for that if nothing else!
The Rifleman and Jagermech don't really belong as brawlers or snipers. They are anti-aircraft guns. Used as intended, they work great.
If you think Rifleman is bad for heat profile, look at the Marauder. 16 heat sinks when the main guns make 20? 23 with the cannon on the run? That's a serious problem. Yet the Marauder is still my favorite. There's always perspective to be considered. Good video, even if I have a nit pick. Keep up the great work!
@@ralphsexton8531 thank you kindly! That may be the case. With precision ammo u can really mess up VTOLs and ASF
@@TheManyVoicesVA Absolutely! And considering how nasty ASF strafing and bombing can be, you need something. Gotta love that anti-air sensor.
@@ralphsexton8531 ya the quirk is amazing. Truly fantastic
better not see no charger or fireball
edit: yay :)
alright to actually talk about what's being discussed, i have never seen someone run a hussar and i cant really blame anyone. that poor thing is a sad bundle of bad weapons, and it doesn't even have a punch line like an ostscout. I have used one in BT 2018 and it was just lack luster for its cost.
The dervish is way too cool looking for what it provides. if it wants to be an LRM boat it should have stripped the 2 SRM 2's for more ammo or another launcher instead of what we got. i also find it really slow if you go anywhere near a real fight.
Never used a quickdraw. no comment. seems old though
The Jagermech is one of my friends favorites, but its clear thats just because its an urbanmech with pants and a flared collar
Suprised to see a Rifleman on here, but i get it. the AC5's are not good enough to qualify it as a sniper. it really should stick more into those cannons making them 10s, or going all the way with anti air as a role and getting rid of the lasers entirely.
Also if you wanted to add a mech on here, i have never gotten along well with a griffin. im sure thats biased in some way, but it seems to me its loadout is far too wimpy for its role, and it would do better as an ambusher of some kind
A fellow Griffin hater! If you dislike the Griffin, try the Shadowhawk-2K. It is the same thing but it doesn't overheat. It has less damage though so it doesn't really fix the issue you have with it... I don't like most griffins. The only ones I do like are the Steiner royal guard ones, and those... Aren't really Griffins anymore lol. The 1N Griffin is an issue for me though. It overheats like crazy, and keeps all the weapons on 1 side, without enough arm armor to protect its main armament. I much prefer the lostech version that packs 2 SRM 6s with a PPC in the arm. That is a solid skirmisher that pokes around the enemy's flanks with the PPC, then dashes in to crit seek a damaged target with SRMs.
I am not that big of a fan of 5/8/5 skirmishers in general. They are only really fast enough to keep 4/6 or worse units off their back, and lack the long ranged damage to really hurt anything much. Unless you are the Dervish, and sacrifice armor for guns lol. Ironically, it might actually be pretty decent if it dumped the SRMs and ammo for armor. That would make it a bit Whitworth, which is actually a decent little mech.
Alot of these are made better by being cheap in BV, but even then, eeeeeh
I love them
@@Andrewlik bad mechs can be fun to play lol. If you lose you also have an excuse XD
When you get the above mechs in your random assignment table Nooooo! 😂
I'll take any of these over a Loki or a Dasher tbh lol.
I gotta disagree with most of your takes here. Firstly, the Dervish is like the Trebuchet, it's a support fire machine for light and scouting lances. It hangs back while faster and beefier machines do the heavy lifting while it pummels from the back line. Second, why's everyone gotta hate on my boy the Quickdraw? I'll agree, it's baseline load outs leave much to be desired, but with the smallest of customizations you can drop the LRM for a second SRM 4 and up grade that armor. Now it's a lightning fast 60 tonner to fear. Finally, why would you use a Rifleman for anything other than sniping? Those large lasers are for scouts who think they have the drop on you. Arms flip over and now they're getting melted down into scrap. As for the AC/5's, they can snipe just fine if you're keeping pace with the lance and staying at the rear, firing over their heads. Swap them out for a pair of UAC/5's and go brrrrrt. As for the other two, yeah, hot garbage. There's a too many mechs that do the Hussar's job better and are more iconic. And the Jaegermech, every time I look at it I think, "I already own a Rifleman, why bother". This is all my opinion as a MechWarrior though.
"Shoot and scoot" mechs always seem unpopular. The catapult, the whitworth, the trebuchet (J), the dervish, the quickdraw... but getting the drop on the enemy with them is super satisfying.
Gonna have to dissagree with you about the Jaegermech though, I'd prefer it over a baseline blackjack or a hatchetman. Isn't just not really a "fire support" mech. It's a light bully and vehicle eater.
@@DocDelray why would I use a dervish? For the LRMs? Ill take a whitworth tbh.
The Trebuchet is also better because it brings more LRMs, and doesnt waste tonnage on jump jets.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I think at that point it comes down to personal preference vs what c-bill or BV you can afford for the job. Like, hey, I can respect the Trebuchet, I just don't think the Dervish is a useless mech.
I might disagree with the Rifleman-a little.
It's usable for it's BV. Once you tweek it even a little to improve it the BV
quickly makes it not worth the effort.
For it's BV I would compare it more to line medium mechs like the Centurion.
Just fire those ACs every round until your empty then it's an all energy brawler.
As a Davion player that often has to use what I roll on a RAT, the Jagermech
makes the Rifleman loog good!
BTW-you missed what I see as one of the worst of all time.
The Shadowhawk SHD-2D. Again-if you roll on the Davion RAT you'll
learn how good the Dervish is in comparison.
@@HouseDavieMerc ya the Shadowhawk-2D was on the longer list of bad mechs... I had trouble categorizing it tho. A good cavalry mech wants decent survivability. The 2D is one of the types of units that are imo really worthless; an ambusher.
They *can* work in very close quarters like city fights, but only really with double blind so ur opponent doesnt know where the enemy is. But ya it's not really a cavalry mech, it's in the same category as the SRM or laser carrier. A unit that wants to just pop out from cover and blast the hell out of you 1v1.
I enjoy all of The Many Voices videos 🎉
Maybe I’m out sync but I thought splash damage applied to ppc. Like missiles damage is broken down in 5 pt clusters. I may have read a rule incorrectly.
@@donbrewer2520 nope. 10 point damage chunk to a single spot.
Congrats. You’ve managed to convince us of your inability to identify the intended role of an’Mech.
The Hussar. Wrong role.
The rifleman. Wrong role.
Completely missed the LCT-1M Locust.
🤷♂️
@@Vessekx sorry, what role does the Hussar have other than scout? I'm aware that the Rifleman is an anti-air unit, but that isn't a defined role in non- ASF games. The locust-1M is an interesting mech. I feel like you take it as super cheap fire support. At under 500 BV it is just about the cheapest thing with 10 LRMs on it in the game. It can spot from super far away and launch its own LRMs from outside enemy range.
Watching this again: Keep the Clint's name out your mouth! I love my 40 ton jumpy man in armor! Yes the armor sucks, but I love it anyways.
@@MrDmitriRavenoff lol the Clint is awful and I will never change my mind on that.
I've done good work with the 5a quickdraw
@@verysilentmouse there are just better designs that do the same thing. Give me a wolverine over it any day.
Well, best/worst is subjective to what mech variation you're using, and the overall lance makeup with those variations. The balance in the units is basically what makes the game playable, and allows for a crap load of variation in scenarios. I personally would never use an Urbanmech, but I do see the advantage of using a full lance or two of them to guard a strategic site.
@@teknicron1080 this is true. Urbies are really only good in urban
@@TheManyVoicesVA or at least in any area with high cover.
I think we can all agree the original Charger is an objectively terrible mech. I think only that Hussar is a close run for it's money.
@@forrestpugh7575 from an in universe perspective yes. From a BV perspective it is actually a super cheap distraction unit that will kick your shit in if you ignore it.
@@TheManyVoicesVA The person who runs our games took a Charger and put an overload shunt into it so the pilot detonated it. This knocked down and heavily damaged several mechs that it ran close to.
@@broccanmacronain457 like a self destruct device?! That is amazing lmao. The bog KABOOM from a 400 rated engine must have been incredible.
@@TheManyVoicesVA I know, we were all pretty amazed by the damage it did to us. And we were pretty dumbfounded when it just ran into the middle of us, admittedly the kicks/punches from an 80-ton mech are pretty damaging but to run into a group of 4 medium and heavy mechs is suicide. (haha)
@@broccanmacronain457 Chargers are available in abundance in the DCMS. I don't think that's a coincidence. Kamikaze attack! Lol
Your wrong about the Jagermech in anything other than tabletop. Especially with RAC 5 Autocannons . Jagermech DD can run 2 RAC 5, 4 LMG, 3 medium lasers, and an AMS. For bad mechs, The Ostscout, which is mostly unarmed.
@@joshuamidgette4846 ostscout is a funny mech. I actually like it quite a bit because it has no weapons it costs almost no BV. It makea a great cheap kicker.
@@TheManyVoicesVA Only if it can sneak up on someone, it also has very little armor.
@@joshuamidgette4846 it has enough in 3025 to eat a large laser. As long as the legs and CT are intact the ostscout basically doesnt care about taking damage. That's one of the things about it that is awesome.
I disagree with saying the Rifleman is a brawler, it and the Jagermech are highly specialized for a role that you seldom ever need: anti-air. That's kind-of a niche all on its own, and even then there are other mechs that do that job better like the Orion and the Longbow while still being able to serve well in other roles (note: my personal requirement for a mech to be considered an anti-aircraft asset is it must have the Improved Anti-Air Targeting design quirk). That and, tbh, you may be better off using a conventional vehicle for that, i.e. a Partisan.
For me, the ACTUAL worst Brawler should be pretty obvious: the Charger CGR-1A1. Yes, it's fast for its tonnage, but it has pitiful armament and it doesn't have enough armor to survive running up to something to punch it unless you deploy it in a city or similar terrain. imho you'd be better off ripping out the handful of small lasers it has and sticking on more armor, just to increase the odds that it'll get close enough to do what it's actually good at: robot fisticuffs. I know, it's low-hanging fruit, but other than in very specific circumstances, it's just a walking target.
@@z3r0_35 That is the actual point of the Charger. It is built to be a walking target. It is tough for its cost, and if the enemy shoots at it, they arent shooting at your mechs with guns.
@@TheManyVoicesVA The point of the Charger is in the name: it's meant to utilize the charge mechanic to slam into things at full sprint. The issue is that the concept itself is flawed, and even then the execution is poor.
My only problem really comes in at around the time the rifleman does,… as there is no world in which a reasonable man should even look at thing thing and go “it’s a brawler I can totally see it punching some dude!” Then again my idiot brother might say something like “I think it could use those long barrels like javelins and spear mechs through!” all while making stupid mouth noises like it’s supposedly a transformers impression.
But that’s really more accurately described as having to do with the classifications and how despite the clear boundaries are still pretty ambiguous given the sheer absurd number of factors to take into account.
Take the Jager for example. It has a large, wide cockpit with huge bay windows and a wide view. Except no, not at all, it has one of the shittiest cones of vision out of all mechs ever designed because some looked at the deliberately designed high visibility of the cockpit and decipto build two permanent horse blinders on each side of the damn thing meaning you can only see everything in a 90 degree angle in front of you. This should make it one of the worst mechs period. Ever. Full stop. No ambiguity. Do not pass go. Do not collect $2000
But then I’m looking beyond stat sheets at that point so things get fuzzy. Things like ergonomics and weapon placement (uneven placement scattered across the mech being impossto predict where each shot will land) For example as bad as the hussar might be, the way the Javelin physically walks, all the tottering and stuff should make it horrifically unstable so that they’re constantly falling over. Or how they should kill their pilot after each mission by giving the shaken baby syndrome.
@@ornerylurker8296 hahahaha I can just picture pilots coming out of their mech all dizzy from being shaken around like a terrier's dog toy...
Many people dont play with ASFs, or VTOLs. Without those, the Rifleman is straight up a brawler design. Just you know... they kinda forgot the armor.
@@TheManyVoicesVA That's precisely it! Pluuuus having the fluids in your inner ears/cerebellum/eyes violently shaken does h o r r i f f i c things to you.
Normally, if I don't have a Marauder around or they're busy elsewhere, I tend to make the Rifleman the head hunter or artillery guy. Just feels better.
We need a follow up with the other mechs
@@BlUsKrEEm the good ones I listed? Or all the bad ones at the very end?
@@TheManyVoicesVA The bad ones. I want the full list of 30+
How could you get all the others dead on, but be so far off the mark on the Dervish? I mean, you really want to say that the Dervish is worse than the Shadow Hawk?
@@chrish1906 Oof. You make a point lol. The OG SHD is pretty bad as well... but it has better armor. They are both pretty explosive. The 2K shadowhawk is pretty good, but is a different type of unit, more of a sniper than a skirmisher.
You may be right on this one!
Surprisingly, Atlas isn't listed as a scout
@@99zxk The fatlas is a brawler. It's too expensive imo, but it is a terrifying beast of a lineholder if it doesnt get headshot. I dont generally play anything bigger than 85 tons. 3/5 movement mechs are not good most of the time. The Awesome is an exception.
@@TheManyVoicesVA It's called an awesome for a reason.
@@99zxk it sure is awesome!
@@TheManyVoicesVA I've never thought about this before, but how does an Awesome compare to a Schrek? It's close to half the BV.
@@99zxk the Schrek XL engine version is about as good IMO. The good thing about the Awesome is mech mobility and wayyyy more armor
Im not feeling this list tbh. I only agree with jagermech. Quickdraw while not super amazing is still not bad for the bv. Those rear mediums are great when you fail initiative 7 turns in a row 😂
@@ero9841 lol if the Quickdraw lives more than 6 turns it is a miracle.
@@TheManyVoicesVA hey man I've killed plenty with dam thing. But that's not saying anything . Our local meta are probley different. Shouldent expect the same outcomes.
The shadow hawk. Jack of all trades, terrible at all of them. It has decent armour and mobility but that is it. In a game I made testing out a scenario i literally left one alone in my side/read arc as it's AC5 and SRM2 is pituful. My houserules of doubling the AC5 fire rate and trippling the AC2 make it marginaly better but still. Centurion is better at everything.
The Jaggermech is a good light me h harasser imho. But yeah, a strong sneeze by something like a Thunderboltcan topple him over. Using my house rules makes it better but until you add endo, the design is just not armoured enough. I get the role it iseant to play in combined arms. It isnlike a shilka. Protection against small arms and shrapnel and dedicated AA platform. But in mech vs mech of the succession wars... I mean, it has the tonnage of a thunderbolt with the armour of a blackjack.
And if you go endo, you can customize the design further removing all ACs and replacing them with 2 UAC10s for instance. He k you don't even need endosteel, replace the autocannons with 2 AC10s and that is it. You have spate tonnage for armour now and you will punch harder.
It's not fair to call these the worst mechs; it is fair to call these unforgiving mechs, because you cannot be stupid with them. You cannot afford to make a lot of mistakes and, you have to be able to identify when to take risks.
Waaaaaaay back on the megamek 3025 server, one time when the GRF-1N's adjusted bv got too high (1500+) , a couple Liao's started adding a 1/3 HSR-300-D (around 850 adjusted bv) to their 3.5-4.5k lances. And they were killing everyone with their set up.
The other 4 mechs are perfectly serviceable even as a unit; I wager as a lance I'd come out with a 60-70% win rate using these 'worst' mechs. This is some decent theory crafting but, just because a mech is weak doesn't mean it can't still kick ass.
I saw you challenged the other guy and he wussed out, which is too bad. I'm willing to give it a go to show that *how* you use your mechs is just as important as what mechs you *choose*.
@@dfhuscarl hahaha. Bring it on! Maybe I can try streaming the match or something. Ping me on the MRC discord and we can get something set up.
@@TheManyVoicesVA By all means! Feel free to stream or make a vid out of it. There's no such thing as too much BT content.