The worst part about this is: If Ziyal hadn't been killed right then and there, Dukat, in my eyes, was just three seconds away from telling her he would stay there with her. Instead, he descended into madness.
I'm not sure he would have stayed.. if he had he'd have worked in a way to betray the federation and get himself back to a position of power on Cardassia, imagining he'd convince Ziyal to go with him.
@@paulgratton90pgI don’t think Dukat could have lead to the win. All that he had done in the show would lead to to much suspicion between all the Alpha Quadrant. Damar was definitely the best option, if not him then Garek
It's actually terrifying haha. WHAT ARE YOU FORGIVING ME FOR?? (As it turns out: Everything! Everything bad that's ever happened is Sisko's fault. Duh.)
Damar, he can stare down a phaser or a disruptor without batting an eye, he can track enemy movements across sectors of space, hell he can even start a revolution... but dealing with women, god help him he tries.
For one of the best characters in Star Trek...holy crap was he a mindlessly evil idiot for a long time haha. (Until he was forced to confront what leadership really means.)
Damar properly a ladies man suave with words and the old long neck look attracting young ladies but he has a job to do that in TV land being a bully will get you beat up, brave Damar
It's not TNG. Not even close. The writing in TNG is dog shit in comparison to DS9. TNG is just the go-to when people think of Star Trek because if you grew up around the 90's because of Patrick fucking Stewart being attached to it. But for the most part the majority of the main characters are kind of poorly written, and you can count the number of good supporting characters on 1 hand. It really says something when only like 3 major characters had reliably good writing for episodes oriented around them (Picard, Data and Riker). Deanna Troi was a shitty therapist (it's says something that Guinan fills the role better and she's a supporting character) and her episodes oriented around being raped 90% of the time or her almost universally hated mother by the audience.
@@Jimmy-fg6hm He's done many monstrous things, lies with gleeful abandon, and has no problem inflicting cruelty and death at a whim when it suits him. You ask what makes someone think Garak is a monster. How could someone not think he is a monster?
@@EmptyMan000 he most certainly has done objectively heinous things... but he has his moments of unadulterated altruism. he's a conniving trickster with a penchant for equal parts cruelty and compassion... but introspection is a valuable skill and is, in my opinion, the most important one to have in *any* relationship dynamic. garak has it. she saw it. and she saw that he was at least trying to be a good person.
A point worth noting: Dukat immediately suspects that Dumar must have done something to antagonize Major Kira. Even though he hates her (and vice versa) he has also come to know her well enough to realize she wouldn't just randomly kick someone's ass for no good reason.
I really think that has more to do with the fact that Dukat wanted Ziyal to join him willingly. He goes out of his way in the first place to emphasize that all he wants is for Ziyal to talk to him. He doesn't want her forced or intimidated. He wants her to come around to his point of view. To him, winning Ziyal's heart is an ultimate victory of sorts, proof that he can not only conquer the quadrant but also put his home in order. When violence enters the picture, he's upset that his plans are off track; he would rather make Dumar grovel at Kira's feet than give up his prize.
Dukat was a great villain because he was a villain, but was multidimensional. I wished for his redemption, but his end was one that worked . Damar got the redemption arc, and Dukat shows what happens when one does not let go of the worst parts. He could have been redeemed and had many opportunities, but never really looked at his own part. Even his babbling in his break down showed his self delusion. That led to where he ended up. Tragic, but story wise it worked.
Thats a good point. for hte longest time you would have thought Ducat was going to get the redemption arc and never down to the end was evil. Whereas Dumar was the actual loyal to Cardassia military man
Poor, poor Dukat... I thought he was going to find some salvation, I wanted him to be a good guy. At least an anti-hero. But instead, he goes insane, gets taken over by the Pa-Wraths, and gets trapped in Bajoran hell.
Brendan Feay I actually love that about him. Everyone wanted him to be a good guy but sometimes like in real life, people go down a spiral and never get out
i never get the pai-wraths thing, like its so random and awkwardly fitted into this, i guess i understand it to look at it from a point of view that he just slipped down after his daughter, like lost his senses, but still, he was such a great man, he doesnt deserve this, he didnt even have anger or blamed Damar, he just...went down, trapped, n never able to get bak on his feet again
+Cherie Li I think it fits Dukat perfectly. He always was Siskos antithesis. if Sisko was the emissary of the Prohpets, the Bajoran gods, then Dukat would be the emissary of the pah wraith, the devils. After this he started to so utterly hate both Sisko as well as the Bajorans, blaming them in one way or the other for every instance where he had failed. The Bajoran Occupation, the Dominion War, etc. As the emissary of the Pah Wraith he was in the perfect position to oppose both of the things he hated.
You've hit on Dukat's key weakness- the one that led to his downfall (and Kai Wynn's downfall). He blamed. He never truly took responsibility for his own wrongs-- he blamed others. The Bajorans for not 'getting' his 'mercy', Sikso for taking over his station, etc. He never seemed sincere when apologizing- it was part of a manipulation. I loved this character, I mourned his lack of redemption- but blame blame without accountability-- it leads to that end.
In a way, but if they weren't going to establish that thing with Dukat and the pah wraiths, this really should've been the end of Dukat. Worst part is that it should've been either Winn or Dukat vs Sisko at the end, not some weird "no, me!" fight over who gets to try to kill him. I'd have liked it to have been Winn. With no intervention from a puppet Dukat, but over her own initiative. It would've been a far more satisfying conclusion.
Not quite, Dukat went mad and sought out the Pah Wraiths - Sisko was not looking to be the Prophets chosen at all, they kind of singled him out regardless. It's the old power sits more securely on the head that does not seek it trope.
@@mnomadvfx Honestly, we don't know if the wraiths approached him or the other way around. He had some cult going on with an abandoned station for a bit, but we have no idea what actually prompted that in the first place.
I felt the most sorry for Garak in this series. He alone amongst the protagonists ended up losing everything. His parents, his love, his business, his world as he'd known it, even his best friend (though I'm sure he and Bashir did keep in touch). Honestly, if I could put one thing into the new Star Trek films, I'd have them somehow write in Garak and bring in Andrew J Robinson to play him one last time.
JimmySteller Of all the god dam sequels they made. They never made one of the BEST star trek series. I mean common.... No sisko returning? No new dax? No Garak being leader of cardassia? No kira and odo reunion? No worf as an old klingon? DIS IS BULLSHIT
+JimmySteller I agree, he's my fav character, obsessed with him, a true obsidian order spy, he lost everything yet he fought to the last, hes so good at his job, all those contacts, all those lies mixed with truth that got bashir so confused at first, no one is better than intelligence work than he is, not even tain (cuz if ur that good u wouldnt die) yet his own father wont even publicly admit he is his own (and he had to lie about it too until at Tain's deathbed and when they hid at Mila's place at the end) even said he should have killed Garak's mom and him...wtv betrayal, he never had any love so cant blame him for being the way he is, all he knew was intelligence work, survival, cuz when u have no one left thats all u got
I really think a DS9 movie should have been made. These characters were the most complex, best written and acted. I would also like to see a huge one off movie or TV special where all of the actors still alive from all of the spinoffs come together to fight some super villain. And I want to see how the relationships developed.
One of my interpretations of the Dukat/Damar relationship was that Damar was jealous of Ziyal, he viewed Dukat as a father figure and wanted to be treated like a son.
yes indeed. one of the most, if not THE most underrated characters ever. DS9 had it's flaws, and needed a few seasons to really get on its track, but in the last 2-3 seasons, I think it was the top of the entire star trek franchise ever. and i say this with loving/respecting all the other, and having voyager as a personal favorite. But the depths, complexity, sensitivity, and maturity of the last seasons of DS9 is unparalleled!
That gave me a good laugh, but I have to poke at your comment. Water isn't actually wet. Wetness is a description of our experience of water; wetness is contact with water in such a way that it impinges on our state of being. Things and people can 'get wet' but not water. =P
@@datfisheboi6519 Oh, no. You see, that which is wet under _some_ circumstances is able to be _dry_ under _others._ Under what circumstances can water be dry?
Ziyal's death was poetic justice for Dukat. He never cared for the Bajorans and he convinced himself he was this magnanimous ruler when in reality he hated them, he was unfaithful to his wife multiple times and he had a massive ego where he expected people to flatter him. So when Dukat actually takes responsibility for his actions and is held to account -- demoted in the military and is disowned by his family -- he takes care of Ziyal and shows something like genuine love towards her. Ziyal was Dukat's last connection to anything resembling good virtue and he lost it due to his ambition, arrogance, anger and delusions of grandeur.
@@InfernosReaper Dukat sought a means of petty revenge. Very much in his character. He found it in the Pah Wraiths, who chose him because they, too, were petty and evil. Winn was absolutely petty and selfish, but not completely evil. So they chose him over her.
@@shuttlecrossing7084 Nah, Dukat was basically done and was more Kira's rival than The Sisko's, while Winn had this long standing animosity towards The Sisko and the Prophets that needed proper resolution. She was perfect for the role.
"I could never figure out why." It's simple. Real love is unconditional. It doesn't always mean someone will take your side, but it does mean they'll never give up on you.
No, it’s not unconditional, you can't love someone if they are doing bad things, if you do you will confuse yourself for what is right=righteous and then they will not learn anything.
jesus maldonado It's love that gives a person the strength to change, both the love you give them and the love they have for you. Without love, there is no hope for anyone.
Unconditional love (of which there are two types, familial & romantic) can only be broken by balant, malicious betrayal. I was unlucky enough to learn that the hard way, though fortunately most don't. The opposite - and the result of malicious betrayal - is Unconditional Hatred, and it is as unquenchable once cursed therewith, as it is permenant. Dukat's love isn't shaken by Ziyal's betrayal, because there is no malice or ill intent in her confession, only an obvious and noble - even to some Cardassian eyes - motive to help others she cares about.
@@jimtaylor294 Hatred does not follow from betrayal. Betrayal brings pain, devastation even, but it is not the author of hatred. The source of hatred is always selfishness, the placing of one's own desires and expectations above consideration for what is right and the well being of those around you. Real, unconditional love overcomes even betrayal, and it does so with forgiveness. That doesn't always mean acting as though no act was committed against you, but it does mean that you will continue to desire and work toward the best that can be for the other person, even if that best isn't what they think they want. The truth is Ziyal never betrayed Dukat. She only ever tried to do what was best for him, even if that meant opposing him. She only wanted him to see that conquest was not the best he could be, and the reason he could not hate her for that is because deep down, he knew she was right, even if he would never allow himself to admit it.
I love Garak's snide remarks and demeanor, but it's the real moments like this when I love him. When he is actually saying feelings not in some snide remark. In this scene his voice actually had sadness and tenderness in it.
Dukat was such a deep character. He was a villain, but not for malicious reasons, you could always understand his motives and he truly loved his daughter, despite some of his behaviour toward her.
"[ ... ]my precious girl." And then a few eps later, he's talking to Sisco about Ziyal. Sisco says something like, 'She was special etc. for the short amount of time she was with us.' and Dukat repies, "A short time was all she ever had." That had me bawling all over again!
I actually really, really love the way they handled Damar's character progression. They took their time, played the long game, and it really paid off in the end. I remember watching DS9 as the episodes premiered when I was a kid and absolutely DESPISED Damar for a good, loooong while. But, when he begins to rebel against the Dominion during the final season, and died in battle fighting BESIDE Kira... Man... I just SO blown away by just how complete his redemption felt to me.
I don't like what the writers did with Dukat towards the end of this series, his character and expansion was utterly destroyed after he got possessed or whatever and went super evil antagonist. Actually, I don't like what the writers did at all with the last season or 2, f*cked up a good thing.
Fell to the dark side? He was literally the head of the Bajoran occupation for decades, overseeing the deaths of millions of people, yet still viewed himself as their benevolent benefactor. All he did was stop pretending to be a good guy.
I was impressed with Damar in that he is a man who knows his strengths and weaknesses. He KNEW he would be better planning the battle than dealing with someone else's family problems.
THE BEST VILLAIN IN STAR TREK HISTORY. HE WAS WRITTEN WITH SUCH CARE . AND EACH SEASON HE GREW MORE COMPLEX . YOU WOULD HATE HIM ONE MOMENT. THEN LIKE HIM THE NEXT. THEN THERE IS THE ACTING. THIS ACTOR WAS BRILLIANT. HE DESERVED AN EMMY FOR HIS PERFORMANCE. WE MISS YOU DS9.
Damar really is a pitiful character. He hitched his wagon to Gul Dukat, hoping it would propel him to greatness but instead he has to live in the shadow of a narcissist, carrying out humiliating orders that are well beneath his station. You can tell that deep down he's a soldier and a patriot, and that he's deeply concerned about the direction his world is headed, but he's not smart or brave enough to do anything about it. At least not until long after it was too late. It's not surprising that he dove into the bottle.
The one thing I like about this little scene - Despite the animosity he has with Kira, Dukat recognises that Ziyal is very important to her. She would not have attacked Damar unless she was defending Ziyal from him. Hence there is no comeback or response by Dukat against her for beating the shit out of Damar haha - she gets away with it.
This series of events will never not break my heart just a little bit. It was cunningly written and brilliantly acted and scored. It was this and the events around it that made Dukat so devastatingly believable. Thanks for putting this video together.
DS9 had layers upon layers of emotional writing and deeply fascinating characters. I love all the Star Trek series from the original to Enterprise but DS9 is far and away my favorite.
IMO, 5:30-6:30ish is one of the very saddest moments in all of Trek. As a father who lost a daughter in the womb, I know I went a bit insane, like Dukat. But I had to be strong for her mama, my beloved ex-fiance. We got through it together, even though I'm sad to say my ex and I haven't spoken to or seen each other in years now. Amazing the emotions even a fairly random DS9 clip can elicit, nay? :)
And the way they did it was like...Well, it was clunky. Fist it was a gradual slide into the grey area as opposed to being a straight-up enemy, then suddenly "BAM!" Back to being the villain. Dafuq? If they needed another enemy for Sisko, they could've just made one up like they've done throughout the other multiple series of Star Trek. ¬_¬
Dukat wasn't any more evil than the next Cardassian. He had his issues, but didn't go truly mad until after his daughter was killed. He still could've been redeemed...I mean, plenty of others in the Star Trek universe have been redeemed after killing entire /planets/. (**coughcough* Q *cough**)
Lord Logic A redeeming end, for Dukat, would have been nice. Like, if he gave his life to strike a deadly blow against the Dominion, to atone for his past crimes, then it would have been a nice end, for his character. But, in the end, he stayed true to his personality. He can seem nice, friendly and civil, at times, but in the end he is power hungry and if you dangle power in front of him then he will grasp at it with all the he is. His lust for power corrupted his soul and that's something that Sisko had always seen in him, despite Dukat's attempts to appear reformed. Sisko was never fooled by "good guy Dukat". Dukat is a metaphor for that person you think is your friend, until the day they stab you in the back, for personal gain. His end was preordained and he never never had any hope of having a good outcome. His end was a bad one, as part of the lesson, to not be like him.
There was something about his character I always liked. I so hoped that his daughter would bring out those parts of him that were good and make him a better man. Maybe she could have if she had lived. Who knows. I felt so sorry for him and Garek when Ziyal was killed.
I love the fact that Dukat knows that Kira would only have attacked Damar because he did something to Ziyal. For all of his flaws one thing he was willing to see eye to eye on with Kira was that the both care about his daughter, Kira even says with sincerity to Ziyal that it's the one thing he's never lied about. He's likely sentenced hundreds of Bajorans to death for lesser offenses with certainty they were in the wrong but when Kira beats the crap out of Damar he actually thinks about he circumstances that would have lead to it and deduces she didn't do it maliciously.
An amazing episode and performance. The only flaw is that later in its run, DS9 did not do enough to clearly delineate Dukat's growing madness as having been based in this shattering moment. It's important, when you get a golden opportunity to humanize a villain like this, not to pass on it but to use that to forward your narrative intelligently. Instead the last two seasons of DS9 use Dukat as a fairly generic megalomaniacal nihilist with little hint of where he had come from.
DS9 such and underrated and amazing series. The Character arches, the acting, the space drama, so many memorable scenes! Right up there with Avatar the Last Airbender, DS9 is one of my favorite complete TV series.
The thing is that Damar never recovered from killing Ziyal. Not because of her... but he broke his mentor Dukat just by doing what cardassians where supposed to do at this point. Killing traitors.
Nana Visitor has some great moments where she absolutely nails her performance as Kira. The way she says "no, but I thought about it" is spot on. Its so Kira!
People say it was stupid for Damar to get beaten this way, but Damar was never an exceptional officer. He was working on a freighter before Dukat found him and gave him power for his loyalty. At this point he was a drunk. He was always full of self-confidence with very little to back it up. He has always had more loyalty than brains or brawn, as evidence by him killing Ziyal because of her disloyalty. Kira, on the other hand, has been killing Cardassians since she was a pre-teen, teaches classes in self defense, and has amazing tits, which I'm sure were very distracting to Damar.
This is literally the very moment where Gul Dukat becomes even more three dimensional than Khan ever was. Such an awesome scene no matter how sad it was
I always wished Ziyal's death had motivated him to take revenge on the dominion and end his arc then and there. It would've been a fitting and satisfying end for him. I imagined Dukat going to the evacuation ship with the founder on board, and overloading his sidearm or blasting the warp core to destroy it. He may lose his life but Damar, the founder and Weyoun would go with him. Dukat was too mentally hardened to go completely bananas over his daughter's death.
True but if Ziyal refused to talk to him, he needed help. A better option would've been Kira, as crazy as that sounds because despite all their hatred and differences, they both cared for Ziyal and Kira wouldn't want Ziyal to hate her father.
So... Dukat wanted Ziyal to go home... to _Cardassia?_ When the hell did _that_ become an option? Dukat and Major Kira rescued Ziyal _together,_ and Dukat understood that she would not be _welcome_ on Cardassia, so he recommended that she stay with the Major. That was _his_ suggestion. He was very quick to rule out the option _then,_ so why is he, _now,_ embracing it? Have Cardassians, somewhere along the line, become _more_ accepting of cosmetic and ideological differences? "You heard her! She's a _traitor!"_ Oh, hello, Damar. What has brought _you_ to this part of the station? I thought you were evacuating.
For a half Cardassian/Bajorian, Ziyal was quite beautiful. I was so sad when she died. She also helped "humanize" Dukat. You could tell He loved her very much.
What an excellent actor. This man really played one hell of a character. Dukat really was an asset to the show. Damar was great too. But you have to admit this poor guy got the short end of the stick. Loyal to Dukat till the end and then leads the resistance and well, you know the rest. Great show DS9. It really didn't get the recognition it deserved.
This was when Garak definitely changed. He became more accepting of people caring despite his monstrous past. We got a more focused and determined Garak so that's not a bad thing.
"Did you kill him?" "No, but I thought about it." Are you... _sure_ you didn't kill him? Look at the way he fell. Clearly, Ziyal's question is warranted.
And the real kicker is that Damar really was the golden boy of Cardassian civic virtue here, too. He thought he was doing the right thing by his commanding officer and the cause they both shared, knew the sentence for high treason against Cardassia and that no one was above it, actually thought Dukat would see the action as a dutiful necessity and proceed to evacuate with him... he's almost like the Cardassian equivalent of young Will Riker during the Pegasus mutiny here.
I can't wait for 2017JJTrek to do this scene. "I'M YELLING!" running "DEM DA BAAAD GUISE" "I KILL ME DAUGHTER CUS IM EVIL HAHAHA" "I AM VULCAN AND I YELL" sex scene
You seem to have a somewhat erroneous understanding of the Kelvin timeline films. Perhaps you should watch them again. They’re not nearly as bad as the internet would make you believe.
Dukat's failure is not having the self awareness to realise everything bad that happens to him is a result of his own ego and evil machinations. Over the course of the show he destroys one by one every tie he has to his humanity (cardassian 'humanity'?) through his own misdeeds until he literally becomes a monster and descends into hell. Pretty great character development.
This should have been the end of Dukat's story arc. He started as a villain, became more complicated, spent a short time as a reluctant ally, then became a villain again only to come to this tragic point... ...And then they had to make him the Bajoran Antichrist. I guess in an archetypal way if helped, considering the series began and ended with Bajor and his history there made him perfect for it, but just for the character as an individual, I think this should have been the end.
It planted a seed; he made the bed and had to lay in it; he hit rock bottom, and people who rise out of rock bottom come out in full force. He's a great charactor
You know, having seen Game of Thrones now, Dukat is, in a way, very reminiscent of Cercei Lannister... albeit, playing the same role from a more masculine angle.' He is ruthless and power hungry, but Tyrion would say to him, "you truly do love your children - that is your one redeeming quality."
I have to admit, I have not really been a real lover of Deep Space Nine over the years. Mainly because I have always been used to the format of each Star Trek show having a starship boldly going where no man or no one has gone before. Having a Star Trek show set on a space station didn't really appeal to me. However, I have been watching reruns of DS9 on TV lately and I think I am kind of starting to like it a bit more now. I guess it is because I am watching it from a different perspective. Rather than expecting them to be cruising around on the Defiant and getting into space battles all the time (obviously since the Defiant didn't debut until Season 3), I am getting more into the plots of each episode. And I must say, I do think Gul Dukat is one hell of a badass villain. I am truly amazed by how he reacts when victory is snatched from his grasp and then how he suffers a major blow to the heart when his own daughter is murdered before him. Then after suffering a major breakdown from his daughter's death, he soon becomes all badass again. When DS9 eventually gets a HD conversion and then gets released on Blu-ray, I will definitely consider buying the boxsets of each season.
I'm not a fan of DS9. Particularly because of the tone among other things. But I have watched all the series. And Marc was a standout in the series from Emmisary on
I love how this arc puts a twist on Sisko reclaiming baseball, the promise he left for Dukat that he would be back. Sisko doesn’t find it neatly placed in his desk, or angrily tossed into a corner. He doesn’t pry it from Dukat’s cold dead fingers, or pummel him then proudly pick it up in triumph. It is given to him, sadly and freely. What could any of it matter to Dukat anymore after losing the daughter he gave up so much for and cherished so dearly?
gul dakat - only one of the great characters of ds9 - the other trek series had 3 or 4 but ds9 had so many and how they evolved and grew throughout the series
My only problem with Kira's besting of Damar barefisted is the way it is depicted. While there are no shortages of good performances from Nana Visitor and Casey Biggs, and the writers weren't necessarily wrong to postulate that Kira could physically overcome Damar, the way it was choreographed was ridiculous. Kira starts by dramatically telegraphing her first punch, which Damar doesn't even try to avoid, then he takes one wide swing, which she easily intercepts, and just lets her pummel him for the rest of the fight. Secondly, she can't weigh more than 130 lbs, yet she fights almost exclusively with her fists, striking some of the least sensitive areas of Damar's body. In under 15 seconds, there's no way she's going to cause enough damage to even stun him, not without targeting the throat, eyes, nose, or genitals. A woman her size, depending on her stance, could throw a kick powerful enough to seriously injure Demar, but she doesn't even utilize the most powerful muscles in her body... her legs. While she pivots her torso plenty, possibly using her legs to increase the power of her fists... it's not the same as landing a roundhouse kick to the ribs or a knee to the solar plexus.
I agree completely with your breakdown of this fight scene. Unfortunately, what we saw here is *very* popular in cinema these days. I don't mind seeing a woman (even a really scrawny woman) beat a large man, if it's done realistically, but that's rarely the case. I long for *smart*, *plausible* fight scenes, not showy ones.
My favorite fight scenes in DS9 are 5'4" Ezri Dax against a 6+ foot tall Cardassian. She looks like she weighs maybe 100 pounds, and unlike Vulcans, Trills aren't known to be physically stronger than humans. Vulcans being much stronger than humans isn't unrealistic as a 200 pound chimpanzee is stronger than a 200 pound man. The fights are usually the same, a chop across the chest, and considering it looks like the Cardassians are wearing light body armor, mysteriously stuns the Cardassian and then this *allegedly trained soldier* stands there taking hit after hit until collapsing.
Gul Dukat was about to become a legate. He had several legitimate heirs, and there would be no place on Cardassia for his half-breed daughter. He's far too disciplined and sensible to succumb to his emotions for Ziyal.
Marc Alaimo was one of those actors who would show up in a random episode of your favourite TV show. I remember he was in a "Knight Rider" episode, but I don't remember what it was. So it makes me happy that one of them got to become such a vital character to the series.
The worst part about this is:
If Ziyal hadn't been killed right then and there, Dukat, in my eyes, was just three seconds away from telling her he would stay there with her. Instead, he descended into madness.
I'm not sure he would have stayed.. if he had he'd have worked in a way to betray the federation and get himself back to a position of power on Cardassia, imagining he'd convince Ziyal to go with him.
For sure. Symbolically, she's walking away, he's running after her. So close :(
And blamed Sisko for her death not Damar..
@@paulgratton90pgI don’t think Dukat could have lead to the win. All that he had done in the show would lead to to much suspicion between all the Alpha Quadrant. Damar was definitely the best option, if not him then Garek
Life imitating art. Happened to a friend of my brother's. His daughter was killed while he watched. The bomb was meant for him.
"I forgive you, too"
For me, perhaps the most haunting line in the entire series
It's actually terrifying haha. WHAT ARE YOU FORGIVING ME FOR??
(As it turns out: Everything! Everything bad that's ever happened is Sisko's fault. Duh.)
It’s that earnest yet foreboding connection to his own unimaginable tragedy. I really find it quite ominous and disconcerting.
He proved he wasn't complete monster after all
Best way to knock someone out in the Star Trek universe: Hit them on the back with your hands folded together. Works every time.
Thats just the famous kirk finisher, he was already falling to the ground
Twice the fist means double the impact! Right? Kirk?
Josiah Miller That's what she said. :P
TenouHaruka0
Heyooooo!
Clearly Kirk-Fu continued to be practiced well into the 24th century
Damar, he can stare down a phaser or a disruptor without batting an eye, he can track enemy movements across sectors of space, hell he can even start a revolution... but dealing with women, god help him he tries.
For one of the best characters in Star Trek...holy crap was he a mindlessly evil idiot for a long time haha. (Until he was forced to confront what leadership really means.)
Shiirow he is not the only one. I can assure you.
he's also quick with a joke! "Maybe you should try talking to Worf again" XD
@@nfinn42 "If she doesn't, I look forward to seeing Weyoun 9." Weyoun was certainly not impressed by that.
Damar properly a ladies man suave with words and the old long neck look attracting young ladies but he has a job to do that in TV land being a bully will get you beat up, brave Damar
DS9 was the crown jewel of the Trek universe.
this
Nah man, it was TNG. I'm sure someone somewhere thinks Voyager was the crown jewel, and someone else thinks Enterprise was somehow the crown jewel.
@@LordProteus NO one thinks Voyager is the crown jewel.
It's not TNG. Not even close. The writing in TNG is dog shit in comparison to DS9. TNG is just the go-to when people think of Star Trek because if you grew up around the 90's because of Patrick fucking Stewart being attached to it. But for the most part the majority of the main characters are kind of poorly written, and you can count the number of good supporting characters on 1 hand.
It really says something when only like 3 major characters had reliably good writing for episodes oriented around them (Picard, Data and Riker). Deanna Troi was a shitty therapist (it's says something that Guinan fills the role better and she's a supporting character) and her episodes oriented around being raped 90% of the time or her almost universally hated mother by the audience.
No its ST: Enterprise, best series by far
Garak's bewilderment that an innocent like Ziyal could love a monster like himself is just heart breaking.
Ziyal could see the good in everyone. That was her gift, and also her tragic flaw.
What makes you think Garak is a monster?
@@Jimmy-fg6hm He's done many monstrous things, lies with gleeful abandon, and has no problem inflicting cruelty and death at a whim when it suits him. You ask what makes someone think Garak is a monster. How could someone not think he is a monster?
@@EmptyMan000 he most certainly has done objectively heinous things... but he has his moments of unadulterated altruism.
he's a conniving trickster with a penchant for equal parts cruelty and compassion...
but introspection is a valuable skill and is, in my opinion, the most important one to have in *any* relationship dynamic.
garak has it. she saw it. and she saw that he was at least trying to be a good person.
A point worth noting: Dukat immediately suspects that Dumar must have done something to antagonize Major Kira. Even though he hates her (and vice versa) he has also come to know her well enough to realize she wouldn't just randomly kick someone's ass for no good reason.
@SoulFire She really didn't... Damar was taking Ziyal forcibly, Kira was defending her.
I really think that has more to do with the fact that Dukat wanted Ziyal to join him willingly. He goes out of his way in the first place to emphasize that all he wants is for Ziyal to talk to him. He doesn't want her forced or intimidated. He wants her to come around to his point of view. To him, winning Ziyal's heart is an ultimate victory of sorts, proof that he can not only conquer the quadrant but also put his home in order. When violence enters the picture, he's upset that his plans are off track; he would rather make Dumar grovel at Kira's feet than give up his prize.
The original p,an was for Kira to be Dukat’s daughter.
@@dkupke no, the original idea was for kira and dukat to become lovers which both performers said was a bad idea to the writing staff
@@dkupke Nah, he wanted to do her, obvsly.
Dukat was a great villain because he was a villain, but was multidimensional. I wished for his redemption, but his end was one that worked . Damar got the redemption arc, and Dukat shows what happens when one does not let go of the worst parts. He could have been redeemed and had many opportunities, but never really looked at his own part. Even his babbling in his break down showed his self delusion. That led to where he ended up. Tragic, but story wise it worked.
Thats a good point. for hte longest time you would have thought Ducat was going to get the redemption arc and never down to the end was evil. Whereas Dumar was the actual loyal to Cardassia military man
If Ziyal lived he may have turned around, but after that he had nothing left to live for.
Dukat beats Khan as the best villain in the Star Trek universe. In my humble opinion.
The death of Ziyal was the only moment in DS9 when I felt sorry for Gul Dukat.
Poor, poor Dukat... I thought he was going to find some salvation, I wanted him to be a good guy. At least an anti-hero. But instead, he goes insane, gets taken over by the Pa-Wraths, and gets trapped in Bajoran hell.
Brendan Feay I actually love that about him. Everyone wanted him to be a good guy but sometimes like in real life, people go down a spiral and never get out
i never get the pai-wraths thing, like its so random and awkwardly fitted into this, i guess i understand it to look at it from a point of view that he just slipped down after his daughter, like lost his senses, but still, he was such a great man, he doesnt deserve this, he didnt even have anger or blamed Damar, he just...went down, trapped, n never able to get bak on his feet again
+Cherie Li I think it fits Dukat perfectly. He always was Siskos antithesis. if Sisko was the emissary of the Prohpets, the Bajoran gods, then Dukat would be the emissary of the pah wraith, the devils.
After this he started to so utterly hate both Sisko as well as the Bajorans, blaming them in one way or the other for every instance where he had failed. The Bajoran Occupation, the Dominion War, etc. As the emissary of the Pah Wraith he was in the perfect position to oppose both of the things he hated.
You've hit on Dukat's key weakness- the one that led to his downfall (and Kai Wynn's downfall). He blamed. He never truly took responsibility for his own wrongs-- he blamed others. The Bajorans for not 'getting' his 'mercy', Sikso for taking over his station, etc. He never seemed sincere when apologizing- it was part of a manipulation. I loved this character, I mourned his lack of redemption- but blame blame without accountability-- it leads to that end.
We got Damar instead, worth it
Marc Alaimo what a fantastic actor! Gul-dukat was given such depth by this man.
He truely loved his daughter the only true kind feeling he had for anyone
And everyone, if you know the character, he betrays everyone before and after.
+Matthew Smith Dukats only true love was Dukat
agreed. I really thought he was gonna kill Ziyal when he found her, but then his action really surprised me, very unlike him.
+Michael S True, but he still loved her more then anyone else.
Sadly he did. However Dukat was always in love with himself and power. If Dukat had any character he'd have killed Dumarr where he stood.
This moment parallels Sisko and Jennifer. Sisko lost her and found the prophets. Dukat lost Ziyal an found the Pah'Wraiths.
Both destined for death because of non-corporeal entities...
The sisko was created to be of of them and to do their bidding
In a way, but if they weren't going to establish that thing with Dukat and the pah wraiths, this really should've been the end of Dukat.
Worst part is that it should've been either Winn or Dukat vs Sisko at the end, not some weird "no, me!" fight over who gets to try to kill him. I'd have liked it to have been Winn. With no intervention from a puppet Dukat, but over her own initiative. It would've been a far more satisfying conclusion.
Not quite, Dukat went mad and sought out the Pah Wraiths - Sisko was not looking to be the Prophets chosen at all, they kind of singled him out regardless.
It's the old power sits more securely on the head that does not seek it trope.
@@mnomadvfx Honestly, we don't know if the wraiths approached him or the other way around.
He had some cult going on with an abandoned station for a bit, but we have no idea what actually prompted that in the first place.
I felt the most sorry for Garak in this series. He alone amongst the protagonists ended up losing everything. His parents, his love, his business, his world as he'd known it, even his best friend (though I'm sure he and Bashir did keep in touch).
Honestly, if I could put one thing into the new Star Trek films, I'd have them somehow write in Garak and bring in Andrew J Robinson to play him one last time.
in the books garak becomes a leader of cardassia
JimmySteller
Of all the god dam sequels they made.
They never made one of the BEST star trek series.
I mean common....
No sisko returning?
No new dax?
No Garak being leader of cardassia?
No kira and odo reunion?
No worf as an old klingon?
DIS IS BULLSHIT
+JimmySteller I agree, he's my fav character, obsessed with him, a true obsidian order spy, he lost everything yet he fought to the last, hes so good at his job, all those contacts, all those lies mixed with truth that got bashir so confused at first, no one is better than intelligence work than he is, not even tain (cuz if ur that good u wouldnt die) yet his own father wont even publicly admit he is his own (and he had to lie about it too until at Tain's deathbed and when they hid at Mila's place at the end) even said he should have killed Garak's mom and him...wtv betrayal, he never had any love so cant blame him for being the way he is, all he knew was intelligence work, survival, cuz when u have no one left thats all u got
I really think a DS9 movie should have been made. These characters were the most complex, best written and acted. I would also like to see a huge one off movie or TV special where all of the actors still alive from all of the spinoffs come together to fight some super villain. And I want to see how the relationships developed.
I like the way Garak killed people. He always set his guns to the disintegration setting, so they'd just disappear into nothing. haha
One of my interpretations of the Dukat/Damar relationship was that Damar was jealous of Ziyal, he viewed Dukat as a father figure and wanted to be treated like a son.
gul dukat was the best,one of the most complex characters in star trek
yes indeed. one of the most, if not THE most underrated characters ever. DS9 had it's flaws, and needed a few seasons to really get on its track, but in the last 2-3 seasons, I think it was the top of the entire star trek franchise ever. and i say this with loving/respecting all the other, and having voyager as a personal favorite. But the depths, complexity, sensitivity, and maturity of the last seasons of DS9 is unparalleled!
What a role, what a actor, what a series .... brilliance all round
You told Damar to be tactful.....you might as well tell water to not be wet.
That gave me a good laugh, but I have to poke at your comment.
Water isn't actually wet. Wetness is a description of our experience of water; wetness is contact with water in such a way that it impinges on our state of being. Things and people can 'get wet' but not water. =P
V Guyver Spoken like Data.
V Guyver No, wetness means saturated with water, unless you have one specific molecule, then water is wet.
@@datfisheboi6519 Oh, no. You see, that which is wet under _some_ circumstances is able to be _dry_ under _others._ Under what circumstances can water be dry?
@@lazyperfectionist1 As I said, if you have literally one individual water molecule
And it took the death of Damar's own family before he started to understand too.
When Damar's own family was executed, Kira thought he was more than punished enough for killing Ziyal.
Ziyal's death was poetic justice for Dukat. He never cared for the Bajorans and he convinced himself he was this magnanimous ruler when in reality he hated them, he was unfaithful to his wife multiple times and he had a massive ego where he expected people to flatter him.
So when Dukat actually takes responsibility for his actions and is held to account -- demoted in the military and is disowned by his family -- he takes care of Ziyal and shows something like genuine love towards her.
Ziyal was Dukat's last connection to anything resembling good virtue and he lost it due to his ambition, arrogance, anger and delusions of grandeur.
And then they ruined all that by making him a lame cultist and then filling the role that was more fit for Winn.
@@InfernosReaper at least dukat isn't dead. Just eternally trapped in the fire caves
@@InfernosReaper Dukat sought a means of petty revenge. Very much in his character. He found it in the Pah Wraiths, who chose him because they, too, were petty and evil. Winn was absolutely petty and selfish, but not completely evil. So they chose him over her.
@@shuttlecrossing7084 Nah, Dukat was basically done and was more Kira's rival than The Sisko's, while Winn had this long standing animosity towards The Sisko and the Prophets that needed proper resolution. She was perfect for the role.
"I could never figure out why." It's simple. Real love is unconditional. It doesn't always mean someone will take your side, but it does mean they'll never give up on you.
No, it’s not unconditional, you can't love someone if they are doing bad things, if you do you will confuse yourself for what is right=righteous and then they will not learn anything.
jesus maldonado
It's love that gives a person the strength to change, both the love you give them and the love they have for you. Without love, there is no hope for anyone.
BladeOfLight16 i guess no one will ever know now...
Unconditional love (of which there are two types, familial & romantic) can only be broken by balant, malicious betrayal.
I was unlucky enough to learn that the hard way, though fortunately most don't.
The opposite - and the result of malicious betrayal - is Unconditional Hatred, and it is as unquenchable once cursed therewith, as it is permenant.
Dukat's love isn't shaken by Ziyal's betrayal, because there is no malice or ill intent in her confession, only an obvious and noble - even to some Cardassian eyes - motive to help others she cares about.
@@jimtaylor294 Hatred does not follow from betrayal. Betrayal brings pain, devastation even, but it is not the author of hatred. The source of hatred is always selfishness, the placing of one's own desires and expectations above consideration for what is right and the well being of those around you. Real, unconditional love overcomes even betrayal, and it does so with forgiveness. That doesn't always mean acting as though no act was committed against you, but it does mean that you will continue to desire and work toward the best that can be for the other person, even if that best isn't what they think they want.
The truth is Ziyal never betrayed Dukat. She only ever tried to do what was best for him, even if that meant opposing him. She only wanted him to see that conquest was not the best he could be, and the reason he could not hate her for that is because deep down, he knew she was right, even if he would never allow himself to admit it.
Also, Marc Alaimo is SO underrated.
I love Garak's snide remarks and demeanor, but it's the real moments like this when I love him. When he is actually saying feelings not in some snide remark. In this scene his voice actually had sadness and tenderness in it.
Dukat was such a deep character. He was a villain, but not for malicious reasons, you could always understand his motives and he truly loved his daughter, despite some of his behaviour toward her.
"[ ... ]my precious girl." And then a few eps later, he's talking to Sisco about Ziyal. Sisco says something like, 'She was special etc. for the short amount of time she was with us.' and Dukat repies, "A short time was all she ever had." That had me bawling all over again!
I actually really, really love the way they handled Damar's character progression. They took their time, played the long game, and it really paid off in the end. I remember watching DS9 as the episodes premiered when I was a kid and absolutely DESPISED Damar for a good, loooong while. But, when he begins to rebel against the Dominion during the final season, and died in battle fighting BESIDE Kira... Man... I just SO blown away by just how complete his redemption felt to me.
The Death of Ziyal was too much and Dukat fell to the dark side.
I don't like what the writers did with Dukat towards the end of this series, his character and expansion was utterly destroyed after he got possessed or whatever and went super evil antagonist.
Actually, I don't like what the writers did at all with the last season or 2, f*cked up a good thing.
Fell to the dark side? He was literally the head of the Bajoran occupation for decades, overseeing the deaths of millions of people, yet still viewed himself as their benevolent benefactor. All he did was stop pretending to be a good guy.
*>happy Palpatine noises in the distance8D
I was impressed with Damar in that he is a man who knows his strengths and weaknesses. He KNEW he would be better planning the battle than dealing with someone else's family problems.
To truly understand DS9 you need to watch it from season 1 in Order... Its one BIG ASS STORYLINE! omg so good!
For sure...and watch it completely again..to really get it.
THE BEST VILLAIN IN STAR TREK HISTORY. HE WAS WRITTEN WITH SUCH CARE . AND EACH SEASON HE GREW MORE COMPLEX . YOU WOULD HATE HIM ONE MOMENT. THEN LIKE HIM THE NEXT. THEN THERE IS THE ACTING. THIS ACTOR WAS BRILLIANT. HE DESERVED AN EMMY FOR HIS PERFORMANCE. WE MISS YOU DS9.
The compassion for Dukat at the end: true Star Trek
Damar had such a character arc in this series. What a great show.
Damar really is a pitiful character. He hitched his wagon to Gul Dukat, hoping it would propel him to greatness but instead he has to live in the shadow of a narcissist, carrying out humiliating orders that are well beneath his station. You can tell that deep down he's a soldier and a patriot, and that he's deeply concerned about the direction his world is headed, but he's not smart or brave enough to do anything about it. At least not until long after it was too late. It's not surprising that he dove into the bottle.
Some of the best writing and acting of the entire series, right here.
The one thing I like about this little scene - Despite the animosity he has with Kira, Dukat recognises that Ziyal is very important to her. She would not have attacked Damar unless she was defending Ziyal from him. Hence there is no comeback or response by Dukat against her for beating the shit out of Damar haha - she gets away with it.
The one and only time I really felt sorry for Dukat. That scene at the end... gets me a little teary-eyed.
This series of events will never not break my heart just a little bit. It was cunningly written and brilliantly acted and scored. It was this and the events around it that made Dukat so devastatingly believable. Thanks for putting this video together.
DS9 had layers upon layers of emotional writing and deeply fascinating characters. I love all the Star Trek series from the original to Enterprise but DS9 is far and away my favorite.
The acting in these scenes is truly amazing. Behind the masks, everyone is basically the same, everyone has pain, everyone feels loss. Superb!
Damar took that first punch like a champ
The look he gives Damar when he tries to pull him away, Alaimo does a great job conveying emotion even with all that make up on.
IMO, 5:30-6:30ish is one of the very saddest moments in all of Trek. As a father who lost a daughter in the womb, I know I went a bit insane, like Dukat. But I had to be strong for her mama, my beloved ex-fiance. We got through it together, even though I'm sad to say my ex and I haven't spoken to or seen each other in years now.
Amazing the emotions even a fairly random DS9 clip can elicit, nay? :)
"Did you kill him?"
"No. But I thought about it."
I've always loved that line. :)
I wish they hadn't made Dukat an enemy at the end. I felt like he'd made great strides toward the good side and then it all went to hell.
And the way they did it was like...Well, it was clunky. Fist it was a gradual slide into the grey area as opposed to being a straight-up enemy, then suddenly "BAM!" Back to being the villain. Dafuq? If they needed another enemy for Sisko, they could've just made one up like they've done throughout the other multiple series of Star Trek. ¬_¬
Dukat's ambition is what destroyed him. It led him down the wrong path, every time. Take away that and he could have been a decent person.
Dukat wasn't any more evil than the next Cardassian. He had his issues, but didn't go truly mad until after his daughter was killed. He still could've been redeemed...I mean, plenty of others in the Star Trek universe have been redeemed after killing entire /planets/. (**coughcough* Q *cough**)
Q what they did to dukat in season 7 was so facepalm. that whole pah wraith storyline was crap they could have done so much more with the character
Lord Logic A redeeming end, for Dukat, would have been nice. Like, if he gave his life to strike a deadly blow against the Dominion, to atone for his past crimes, then it would have been a nice end, for his character. But, in the end, he stayed true to his personality.
He can seem nice, friendly and civil, at times, but in the end he is power hungry and if you dangle power in front of him then he will grasp at it with all the he is. His lust for power corrupted his soul and that's something that Sisko had always seen in him, despite Dukat's attempts to appear reformed. Sisko was never fooled by "good guy Dukat".
Dukat is a metaphor for that person you think is your friend, until the day they stab you in the back, for personal gain. His end was preordained and he never never had any hope of having a good outcome. His end was a bad one, as part of the lesson, to not be like him.
There was something about his character I always liked. I so hoped that his daughter would bring out those parts of him that were good and make him a better man. Maybe she could have if she had lived. Who knows. I felt so sorry for him and Garek when Ziyal was killed.
I love the fact that Dukat knows that Kira would only have attacked Damar because he did something to Ziyal. For all of his flaws one thing he was willing to see eye to eye on with Kira was that the both care about his daughter, Kira even says with sincerity to Ziyal that it's the one thing he's never lied about. He's likely sentenced hundreds of Bajorans to death for lesser offenses with certainty they were in the wrong but when Kira beats the crap out of Damar he actually thinks about he circumstances that would have lead to it and deduces she didn't do it maliciously.
Ask Damar to be tactful he winds up killing her.
An amazing episode and performance. The only flaw is that later in its run, DS9 did not do enough to clearly delineate Dukat's growing madness as having been based in this shattering moment. It's important, when you get a golden opportunity to humanize a villain like this, not to pass on it but to use that to forward your narrative intelligently. Instead the last two seasons of DS9 use Dukat as a fairly generic megalomaniacal nihilist with little hint of where he had come from.
Sometimes I feel our happiness and hope is transferred to our children the moment they are born. If they are lost, we are lost.
I believe you're right. And it was certainly the case for Dukat. Ziyal's death broke him beyond repair.
Losing Ziyal is the only time I felt bad for Dukat.
DS9 such and underrated and amazing series. The Character arches, the acting, the space drama, so many memorable scenes! Right up there with Avatar the Last Airbender, DS9 is one of my favorite complete TV series.
The thing is that Damar never recovered from killing Ziyal. Not because of her... but he broke his mentor Dukat just by doing what cardassians where supposed to do at this point. Killing traitors.
Nana Visitor has some great moments where she absolutely nails her performance as Kira.
The way she says "no, but I thought about it" is spot on. Its so Kira!
People say it was stupid for Damar to get beaten this way, but Damar was never an exceptional officer. He was working on a freighter before Dukat found him and gave him power for his loyalty. At this point he was a drunk. He was always full of self-confidence with very little to back it up. He has always had more loyalty than brains or brawn, as evidence by him killing Ziyal because of her disloyalty.
Kira, on the other hand, has been killing Cardassians since she was a pre-teen, teaches classes in self defense, and has amazing tits, which I'm sure were very distracting to Damar.
This is literally the very moment where Gul Dukat becomes even more three dimensional than Khan ever was. Such an awesome scene no matter how sad it was
I always wished Ziyal's death had motivated him to take revenge on the dominion and end his arc then and there. It would've been a fitting and satisfying end for him. I imagined Dukat going to the evacuation ship with the founder on board, and overloading his sidearm or blasting the warp core to destroy it. He may lose his life but Damar, the founder and Weyoun would go with him. Dukat was too mentally hardened to go completely bananas over his daughter's death.
+SGTBizarro he just lost it...without even noticing it
Sisko and the Prophets had caused him to lose the war.
Funny thing about being 'mentally hardened' - even the hardest substances can shatter with the proper stimulus.
That is true.
It was more than only his daughter, his entire fleet died too--imagine how many friends he had on that.
Tracking an enemy fleet is much less frightening that a young Cardassian woman. LOL
Wonderful! My Cardassians forever! They were all good on their episodes.
“No matter how much I try to hate you...I can’t.”
Sums up my thoughts on Dukat perfectly. What a well-written character.
Poor Ziyal, she deserved a better fate.
Dukat SNARLING the word "Promenade!" to the turbolift lives rent-free in my head.
Dukat was wrong to send Damar to speak to Zayal. That should have been Dukat's job not Dumar's.
True but if Ziyal refused to talk to him, he needed help. A better option would've been Kira, as crazy as that sounds because despite all their hatred and differences, they both cared for Ziyal and Kira wouldn't want Ziyal to hate her father.
@@mrsocko316 Good point.
This was the turning point for Dukat. Everything after this moment was a decent into madness.
So... Dukat wanted Ziyal to go home... to _Cardassia?_ When the hell did _that_ become an option? Dukat and Major Kira rescued Ziyal _together,_ and Dukat understood that she would not be _welcome_ on Cardassia, so he recommended that she stay with the Major. That was _his_ suggestion. He was very quick to rule out the option _then,_ so why is he, _now,_ embracing it? Have Cardassians, somewhere along the line, become _more_ accepting of cosmetic and ideological differences?
"You heard her! She's a _traitor!"_
Oh, hello, Damar. What has brought _you_ to this part of the station? I thought you were evacuating.
For a half Cardassian/Bajorian, Ziyal was quite beautiful. I was so sad when she died. She also helped "humanize" Dukat. You could tell He loved her very much.
Great job on the part of the actor who played Dukat. Just that tone of not quite grasping disbelief....
There we see slip the last reigns of Dukat's sanity
What an excellent actor. This man really played one hell of a character. Dukat really was an asset to the show. Damar was great too. But you have to admit this poor guy got the short end of the stick. Loyal to Dukat till the end and then leads the resistance and well, you know the rest. Great show DS9. It really didn't get the recognition it deserved.
Becoming a legend. Not so awful as ends go, even if it's sad.
No matter how evil or misguided a person is, they should never have to see their child die.
Even after all these years, this scene still brings me to tears.
I felt really sad for Garak. Ziyal was special to him. I wish their relationship developed more even though he is old enough to be her father.
And thus began Gul Dukat's final, slow slide into insanity.
This was when Garak definitely changed. He became more accepting of people caring despite his monstrous past.
We got a more focused and determined Garak so that's not a bad thing.
I cried when this originally aired. Haven't seen it since, until now....and it got me again, damn you lol
"Did you kill him?"
"No, but I thought about it."
Are you... _sure_ you didn't kill him? Look at the way he fell. Clearly, Ziyal's question is warranted.
I do love Major Kira. She's so badass and strong. Number 1 role model.
Damn right. She's just so casually badass.
And the real kicker is that Damar really was the golden boy of Cardassian civic virtue here, too. He thought he was doing the right thing by his commanding officer and the cause they both shared, knew the sentence for high treason against Cardassia and that no one was above it, actually thought Dukat would see the action as a dutiful necessity and proceed to evacuate with him... he's almost like the Cardassian equivalent of young Will Riker during the Pegasus mutiny here.
Kira is so badass. And Dukat was the greatest villain in Star Trek lore next to Khan Noonien Singh, yet above the Borg Queen. Change my mind.
eh I don't like the idea of Borg queen but I guess it works
Dukat .... Space hitler with Carisma
From being one of the most powerful men in star trek to a broken man. That jail scene is powerful
I can't wait for 2017JJTrek to do this scene.
"I'M YELLING!"
running
"DEM DA BAAAD GUISE"
"I KILL ME DAUGHTER CUS IM EVIL HAHAHA"
"I AM VULCAN AND I YELL"
sex scene
You forgot about "Oh, what's that? You want to SEE what's going on?! FUCK YOU! ENDLESS LENS FLARES FOR DAYS! *FOR DAAAAAAYYYYSSSSSSS* "
jar jar abrams is cancer
You seem to have a somewhat erroneous understanding of the Kelvin timeline films. Perhaps you should watch them again. They’re not nearly as bad as the internet would make you believe.
Dukat's failure is not having the self awareness to realise everything bad that happens to him is a result of his own ego and evil machinations. Over the course of the show he destroys one by one every tie he has to his humanity (cardassian 'humanity'?) through his own misdeeds until he literally becomes a monster and descends into hell. Pretty great character development.
Wow Ziyal touched more lives on the station than anyone realized. Poor Garak and Dukat. Garak is all alone again.
It still floors me that Damar not only murders Dukat's daughter, but steals his redemption arc, basically.
This should have been the end of Dukat's story arc. He started as a villain, became more complicated, spent a short time as a reluctant ally, then became a villain again only to come to this tragic point...
...And then they had to make him the Bajoran Antichrist. I guess in an archetypal way if helped, considering the series began and ended with Bajor and his history there made him perfect for it, but just for the character as an individual, I think this should have been the end.
Damar killing Ziyal is why I never understood their attempts to make him a hero later on.
It planted a seed; he made the bed and had to lay in it; he hit rock bottom, and people who rise out of rock bottom come out in full force. He's a great charactor
When DS9 was on, it was the best of Star Trek.
You know,
having seen Game of Thrones now,
Dukat is, in a way, very reminiscent of Cercei Lannister...
albeit, playing the same role from a more masculine angle.'
He is ruthless and power hungry,
but Tyrion would say to him,
"you truly do love your children - that is your one redeeming quality."
+Merely Correct And his arrogance doesn't stare you in the face.
"that and his cheekbones"
I see a lot of similarities between DS9 characters and GOT characters. Garak -> Varys for example.
Dukat is NOTHING like Cercei. the fact that they are antagonist characters in powerful positions is the only thing connecting them.
LoRukeEX Gotta Agree
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you're an expert on my life and how I should live it. Please, continue while I take notes.
I have to admit, I have not really been a real lover of Deep Space Nine over the years. Mainly because I have always been used to the format of each Star Trek show having a starship boldly going where no man or no one has gone before. Having a Star Trek show set on a space station didn't really appeal to me. However, I have been watching reruns of DS9 on TV lately and I think I am kind of starting to like it a bit more now. I guess it is because I am watching it from a different perspective. Rather than expecting them to be cruising around on the Defiant and getting into space battles all the time (obviously since the Defiant didn't debut until Season 3), I am getting more into the plots of each episode. And I must say, I do think Gul Dukat is one hell of a badass villain. I am truly amazed by how he reacts when victory is snatched from his grasp and then how he suffers a major blow to the heart when his own daughter is murdered before him. Then after suffering a major breakdown from his daughter's death, he soon becomes all badass again.
When DS9 eventually gets a HD conversion and then gets released on Blu-ray, I will definitely consider buying the boxsets of each season.
I'm not a fan of DS9. Particularly because of the tone among other things. But I have watched all the series. And Marc was a standout in the series from Emmisary on
I love how this arc puts a twist on Sisko reclaiming baseball, the promise he left for Dukat that he would be back. Sisko doesn’t find it neatly placed in his desk, or angrily tossed into a corner. He doesn’t pry it from Dukat’s cold dead fingers, or pummel him then proudly pick it up in triumph. It is given to him, sadly and freely. What could any of it matter to Dukat anymore after losing the daughter he gave up so much for and cherished so dearly?
The most frightening thing about evil is that we can see ourselves in it. Even Dukat was relatable.
To be fair, he said at the outset he wasn’t the right man for the job.
gul dakat - only one of the great characters of ds9 - the other trek series had 3 or 4 but ds9 had so many and how they evolved and grew throughout the series
Yeah, characters of epic Shakespearean proportions!
My only problem with Kira's besting of Damar barefisted is the way it is depicted. While there are no shortages of good performances from Nana Visitor and Casey Biggs, and the writers weren't necessarily wrong to postulate that Kira could physically overcome Damar, the way it was choreographed was ridiculous. Kira starts by dramatically telegraphing her first punch, which Damar doesn't even try to avoid, then he takes one wide swing, which she easily intercepts, and just lets her pummel him for the rest of the fight. Secondly, she can't weigh more than 130 lbs, yet she fights almost exclusively with her fists, striking some of the least sensitive areas of Damar's body. In under 15 seconds, there's no way she's going to cause enough damage to even stun him, not without targeting the throat, eyes, nose, or genitals. A woman her size, depending on her stance, could throw a kick powerful enough to seriously injure Demar, but she doesn't even utilize the most powerful muscles in her body... her legs. While she pivots her torso plenty, possibly using her legs to increase the power of her fists... it's not the same as landing a roundhouse kick to the ribs or a knee to the solar plexus.
I agree completely with your breakdown of this fight scene. Unfortunately, what we saw here is *very* popular in cinema these days. I don't mind seeing a woman (even a really scrawny woman) beat a large man, if it's done realistically, but that's rarely the case. I long for *smart*, *plausible* fight scenes, not showy ones.
The Hanged Man I'll try to join you in that interpretation, it makes this easier to watch.
erentheca Damar may have been a masochist...
Unfortunately, every fight scene in Trek has slow telegraphed punches, and generally unconvincing moves. This scene just follows tradition.
My favorite fight scenes in DS9 are 5'4" Ezri Dax against a 6+ foot tall Cardassian. She looks like she weighs maybe 100 pounds, and unlike Vulcans, Trills aren't known to be physically stronger than humans. Vulcans being much stronger than humans isn't unrealistic as a 200 pound chimpanzee is stronger than a 200 pound man.
The fights are usually the same, a chop across the chest, and considering it looks like the Cardassians are wearing light body armor, mysteriously stuns the Cardassian and then this *allegedly trained soldier* stands there taking hit after hit until collapsing.
You know someone is hurting bad when Odo is gentle with them on the way to the holding cell...
still to this day DS9 is startrek's greatest achievement, nothing comes close to it
That is the beauty of this show: nobody is just good or just evil!
DS9 was truly a cut above the rest when it came to the writing and the characters. I'd say even better than TNG.
If Ziyal brought out Dukat's good side, then sadly her passing apparently destroyed what capacity for goodness there was in Dukat.
What tribute to the excellent writing and skillful acting. DS9 is not only the best written ST, but likely one of the best Sci Fi shows ever,
You need to watch Babylon 5.
Gul Dukat was about to become a legate. He had several legitimate heirs, and there would be no place on Cardassia for his half-breed daughter. He's far too disciplined and sensible to succumb to his emotions for Ziyal.
Marc Alaimo was one of those actors who would show up in a random episode of your favourite TV show. I remember he was in a "Knight Rider" episode, but I don't remember what it was. So it makes me happy that one of them got to become such a vital character to the series.