Same symphony, different conductor: a comparison (Brahms 4, Carlos Kleiber vs Leonard Bernstein)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 พ.ค. 2024
- Today I´ll be comparing two versions of Brahms 4th Symphony, 4th movement, conducted by two different conductors: Carlos Kleiber and Leonard Bernstein. I want to show you how much difference a conductor CAN make, so we will be reviewing tempo choices, frasing ideas, and general gestures to explain why this decisions are made and what impact they have in the music.
Hopefully this will give you a better sense of what a conductor does and why it can be really important!
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This video uses fragments of concerts with the Wiener Philarmoniker conducted by Leonard Bernstein and the Bayerische Staatsorchester conducted by Carlos Kleiber, which are credited and used for educational purposes. - เพลง
I had a lot of fun filming this, give this comment a like if you would like me to compare other pieces/conductors :)
And this was a lot of fun to watch, too! Please do more. It's nice to get to know conductors through the lens of another conductor.
Ooh, different idea. Maybe introduce some women conductors in a video?
would of course love to, for obvious reasons ;) but I struggle to find enough video footage since I prefer older videos for copyright reasons and most available on YT are rather recent ...but it is definitely on my mind. Thanks for the comment! :)
@@howimettheopera maybe you can just use photos and tell us about them. No need for video clips. Links to performances conducted by them in the description would supplement.
I would love to see more Brahms, Schubert's last symphonies, and Mozart operas. Those are, I think, the ultimate test pieces for conductors.
Yes! Would also love commentary on even a single conductor about what they're doing
Kleiber has such clarity in his gestures-and in his quietude. He trusts his musicians and it shows in the playing.
Yep. He serves the music, rather than using it for personal aggrandizement.
I would appreciate more explanatory videos like this. I have no musical training, but love music. Any educational content like this greatly increases my understanding and enjoyment of this wonderful art form. Many thanks.
Me, too! I agree.
I agree!
I really liked your discussion. I believe everyone that asks, "What is the conductor doing?" or, "Is the conductor really needed?" should watch this. Great Job and thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it! :)
This question brought me here! :D thanks for the vid!
If a person watches any conductor in rehearsal they would realize how talented and important they are. Ex: George Solti and L. Bernstein both have these videos on TH-cam
while no one is asking "how is the conductor doing?"
The finished product is achieved by the rehearsal weeks !! The actual performance from the conductors point of view is pretty much pure theatre ,a curtain call for all that preparation !!
As a composer and choir director, this was wonderful .... to realize how these two great conductors THINK, and how that is seen and heard in their conducting ... THANK YOU
I played in wind ensembles and orchestras for years in my younger days (and even majored in music for 3 years) and still go to some 35 to 40 concerts a year, but your video just goes to show that there is always something more to be learned and that someone like you can point out things that have never struck me or that I had forgotten. Thank you!
How wonderful you picked this symphony! It is one of my absolutely top favorites that I NEVER get tired of hearing!
What a contrast! Kleiber, the son of a great opera conductor and raised in Buenos Aires, with that great combination of German rigour and Latin dance. And Bernstein, the American romantic who milked every note for all it was worth. I doubt many people would choose Bernstein’s version just because the tempo is so leaden. It’s a great contrast and not just in the interpretations, we have two very different conducting styles in display. Thanks for putting this kind of analysis out to the public, it’s much needed and you do a great job.
I felt like Bernstein was trying to pull music out of a vat of sticky clay. I didn't care for his tempo at all.
I absolutely love the Kleiber version, in particular the finale. It is so formal and yet so dramatic, the perfect synthesis of classical and baroque. That is clearly what Brahms intended, I think, but easier said than done certainly.
This is very enlightening. Thank you.
I have that Kleiber Brahms 4. Now I need to listen to it again, first chance I get.
Last year I had the good fortune to hear a performance of this with the Los Angeles Philharmonic conducted by Simone Young. She received a thunderous standing ovation from the audience which is rare in this work. She is retuning again this year and I hope to be there. FYI.,my own favorite recordings are still Furtwangler and Walter. Thank you for a most interesting video.
Love the comparison of conductors! I also am a Carlos fan.
Bernstein's is definitely more dramatic. The contrast really draws out the drama. Kleiber's is definitely creating beauty from musical cohesion.
It's almost strange to prefer one over the other because their purpose seems entirely different. Bernstein sounds like he's directing a play for drama through contrast and Kleiber like he is trying to draw attention composer's musicality by showing how well the sections compliment each other.
Very nice way to put it!
I feel like Bernstein is trying to convey the deep emotions behind the music, which in my view was why Brahms wrote this music in the first place. To me those emotions reflect Brahms's lifelong experience of unrequited love and his helplessness and despair in the entire area of romantic relationships. I think Bernstein understood these emotions (even though he had a very full and active romantic and social life, in contrast to Brahms), and tries to bring it out. I expect quite a lot of other conductors may have never had quite the same emotional experiences as Brahms had and might not even recognize what Brahms was likely feeling or trying to convey, so naturally it will not be something they would be able to focus on when performing his music. Fortunately the music is also beautiful and at times exciting and powerful no matter how you interpret it.
Please do more of these videos: very interesting. Thank you for sharing !
I almost always prefer another conductor to Bernstein but I can’t argue that he always conjures something unique and vivid. I almost always watch Bernstein recordings when looking for inspiration. Like him or not, he’s completely, unapologetically himself. Kleiber is just so utterly legendary! He has so much control over the orchestra and its so easy to understand his movements and expressions. Kleiber also generates a lot more true-to-score recordings, whilst still making them special in their colours!
Thank you for these comparisons. Any analysis that helps me (a non-musician) hear more critically and discerningly is a gift that will keep on giving.
Thank you for making the video, finally I got a clear understanding of what the conductor and his gesture is doing. This is very helpful and fascinating!
It is fantastic, a comprehensive comparison of Conducting; although I came to exactly the reverse conclusion with the 2 versions. For me it is Bernstein on almost all points that you have highlighted.
Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful analysis. I am an 80-year-old music lover who knows very little about music but who lived within walking distance of the Philadelphia Academy of Music during the Eugene Ormandy era. I often wondered about the role of a conductor during a performance and, in my own simple way, came to the conclusion that the musicians came to know what the conductor expected during rehearsals just as a sports team knows how to execute plays designed by the coach during the practice sessions - not during the actual game. In my later years I have become a fan of Wagner and find so many variations in approach. I have also listened to many, many performances of Sherezade and am amazed at how the length of a performance can vary several minutes. I am surprised how infrequently it is performed given it so appealing to the general listener. If you ever do review it, I would love your comments on the interaction between the first violin and the conductor during the opening phrases of Sherezade. The bow requires such a delicate touch it seems the first violin would not be able to look away from his instrument. Also, I love seeing the percussionists and would appreciate your comments on their role in such pieces. They may have only a few beats, but the timing has to be spot-on. Best wishes. I hope you feel encouraged to keep up your explanations as it must require quite a bit of time and background research to make a meaningful comparative analysis. It is appreciated.
Excellent thoughts, please continue!
Great!! I am a very professional musician playing in orchestras for the last 40 years….and you are perfectly right. You can read my comments. I wrote them before I read yours.
About Scheherezade. There is not very much interaction really. In most of the places the conductor follows the concertmaster because most of the solos are quite free in tempo, like a cadenza. In all the other parts the concertmaster just plays along like all the other players. The conductor conducts the whole orchestra and everybody plays. As I said, in all the other solos, the concertmaster is very free. Normally they can discuss matters of taste. Like, maybe you could do this or that, you can discuss how long or short a fermata can be etc.
I am in Philadelphia. ❤ The Philadelphia Orchestra
@@katrinat.3032 also a great cheese.
Great video and great content!
Both of these conductors are absolutely stunning musicians, but Kleiber creates a very special and unique aura with every piece he conducts!
thank you! and yes, I agree, Kleiber's aura was special
Kleiber really had a gift
I think it’s important how you brought out how Kleiber allowed the flutist to perform the solo in their own interpretation (to some degree) vs conductors that really control every detail. As in Herbert Von Karajan or Ricardo Muti.
Bernstein chose slower tempi as he got older. I heard the VPO live with him doing Brahms' 4th, and it was amazing. I think he was building intensity with the more full-bodied instruments.
that's amazing that you heard it live! what an experience
It is ironic that the conductor who came out pre-concert to apologize for Gould’s ‘slow’ D minor concerto ended up so far on the other side of the fence!
It would be interesting to hear a Bernstein led orchestra play Brahms 4 much earlier in his conducting career
@@catherinescott562he recorded it earlier with the New York phil
Yess - bitte viel mehr davon, sooo spannend, unterhaltsam und aufschlussreich. Danke von ganzem Herzen für deine Arbeit voller Hingabe. ❤
Very valuable explanation of what conductors do that matters and how they go about it. Thank you for taking the time to make and post this (and for having the background that allows you the insights).
I really enjoyed your video. It is fascinating and clearly explained. Thanks a lot! I’d love to see more of these comparisons or performance analysis. 🙂👍🏼
Thanks for watching, definitely planning on doing this more often cause it was a lot of fun to make!
First of all: marvelous review. Articulate, cogent and thoughtful.
Second: As a former musician, I truly enjoy making comparisons of different Conductors, especially after having the benefit of listening to most of them in person.
Third: Excellent choice in choosing Bernstein and Kleiber. Very different techniques and tempi with a great deal of their personality showing through.
Fourth: My preference in Conductors: My two favorites are Sir Georg Solti and Carlos Keiber. When you close your eyes listening to either Conductor, you are transported to Nirvana hearing the singing of Angels.
Thank-you so much for posting. Your presentation is all that is wonderful about TH-cam. Keep it going.
LOVED this! Very helpful! Going to be eagerly searching everything you are publishing on line. Thank you!
Thank you very much!
I learned so much from this short comparison! Excellent! I look forward to more!
Absolutely fascinating. Two of my favorite conductors. I would never have noticed all the points that you brought out.
it is a great pleasure for me to watch your analyses about these performances! Please continue!!!
What a wonderfully interesting video. As a former professional clarinettist it never failed to amaze me that you could have the exact same group of musicians, same piece of music and, like your video, get completely differing outcomes and not just in tempo! Thanks for taking the time and effort to make this - superb.
It's not the same group of musicians.
@@orientaldagger6920 Yes, I know! I was making my point about the group/s of musicians that I, personally, played with but could have different results with different conductors. This video does not suggest that the clips are the same musicians. OK?
I LOVED this! Please show us more! It is fascinating! Thank You!
Thank you so much for this! I was just having a conversation with someone recently about the purpose of a conductor and how they define how a musical score is performed. This really puts things into perspective and makes you realize all the nuances that help shape the performance.
Thanks for watching, I'm glad it helped
awesome video, it really showcased how important a conductor is in an orchestra. i hope you make more comparison videos like this.
Thanks a lot, definitely planning on doing more of these!
Its exactly the other way around…..orchestras make 95% of the quality of a performance.
Its the old legend about the huge power of conductors….while really bad conductors keep sounding great….example: Herreweghe and Concertgebouw. An amateur conductor „trying“ to conduct a great orchestra. Sounds great. Take Carlos Kleiber to Asuncion, Paraguay and let him conduct an orchestra there…it would sound horrible.
But the legend goes on and on and on….
Brilliant idea for an analysis - comparing two contrasting conductors in visual as well as aural performance. A fascinating video resulted. I think you have started a new analytical trend that will grow and grow!
I really found the explanations very helpful, thank you for taking the time to put this together
Insightful. Your observation “It’s a matter of vision” was spot on.
Great video. I always wondered what effect the conductor had on an orchestra and how they communicated it, now I have a better understanding. Thank you very much.
This was so so helpful and informative, thanks so much for the video!!
I just started looking these kind of things up, but I think you did a great job to "teach" but also show how different this artform is. I can imagine it's hard to make a video that appeals to both newbies like me and oldies who knows what it's all about, hehe.Anyhow, thank you! You got a new follower.
would like to join a chorus of other commentors: please, continuing your videos- comparing different maestros, or any commentary about classical music be it solo, chamber (my pesonal favorite type), anything you feel like sharing. Its a tremendous service to all of us classical music lovers. And if I may add : I find your videos as a much needed fragment of sanity in this absolutely crazy world, with several horrible wars, etc.
Many thanks!
Thank you for this. I appreciated your vision and analyse between these two great conductors. Congratulations.
Good job! Very interesting to this orchestral musician of 45 years. Keep up the good work!
Thank you for this, it's very revealing to hear this detailed analysis of the differences between the conductors. It's always surprising when I hear a piece I've listened to from my teen years and hear it as if it's for the first time, because of the unique vision of the conductor. Your talk helps me to understand some of what that difference of vision consists of. I would enjoy hearing your analyses of singers as well, for instance the different versions available of Schubert's Die schöne Müllerin.
This is a nice, succinct demonstration of how two great conductors can present very different renditions of the same composition.
(This also illustrates to me again why I also love C. Kleiber so much.)
To be fair, though, what we see in performance is just the tip of the iceberg. Having attended many orchestra rehearsals I can attest that's where the conductor does the real interpretive work, frequently even singing to the players how they want passages to be phrased, etc.
Excelente. Gosto muito de assistir a concertos da mesma peça por diferentes regentes e orquestras, é uma experiência prazerosa. Então esse vídeo com explicações técnicas foi sensacional. Que venha mais!
You help explain why I often search different versions of my favorite movements to find out which one stirs me the most. I am amazed at how much difference there can be. I'm not sure what I'm looking for on a technical level, but more on an emotional level and reaction to the music.
THANK YOU! This is so fascinating. I've never grasped what it is that conductors do, why they are considered so important, why one is considered GREAT and another merely pedestrian. You begin to illuminate me with this video. I would LOVE to see more of this, so will look to see what other videos you have done. One editorial comment: it would be great if, at the end of this analysis, you include longer excerpts from each - perhaps a minute or two - to illustrate how all these specific differences come together. WONDERFUL! 💖
Very very educational!
Great work, well-presented!
Thanks very much!
Thank you so much for these videos! I'm currently trying to improve my understanding of music and what the conductor does. I find it so incredibly difficult to identify those differences and put them into words. Some recordings I love, some I don't, but I can never put my finger on why that is.
You showing these differences was really helpful and massively interesting. And you explained all the things very well; it's easy to follow and structured tremendously well. These are really cool videos (like with your take on Beethoven's 5th).
Anything on Wagner ('Rheingold'?!) would be hugely appreciated.
Thanks a lot and keep up the good work!
Wow, I have spent several years watching several orchestras without understanding the behind the scenes information you provided. I am not a musician and will never really get this but you opened my eyes to the function of the conductor and how important they are to what I hear. Thanks.
Interesting analysis. Thank you. Agree w/ you. Please do more!
I love Kleiber, too. In another video, his conducting was used as an example of leadership. Not too controlling, not too loose, but just right.
I just found you. I love your comments and I am learning a lot. Thanks
great - looking forward to more episodes!
This is great! There are many dimensions that you can go with this theme. For example, how different conductors communicate to the orchestra, how different conductor temperaments affect/inspire playing, how rehearsals are conducted. So fun and so informative!!
Agree with @markoconnell304. Having sung with opera choruses, the different kind of communication is so important. And, it has an effect on the chorus, many times on its morale!
@@susanlandsman9572yes I’ve read about some very famous conductors who were let go basically. This was because they crush the souls of the musicians with endless perfectionism
Loved the video! It was both immensely informative & fun to watch.
As a non-musician, I find much of the stuff you talked not that easy to grasp or, rather, notice/hear. Your commentary sure helps a lot.
Hope I'm not being too demanding, but I would love it if you'd (or somebody else in the comments) speculate about what it was that informed their respective choices with almost no regard for psychologism, but instead for the historical context, different schools of thought, perhaps, etc.
this video (and the Beet V opening) is interesting, instructive,and well presented. thanks!
Highly recommend Corresponding With Carlos, by Charles Barber. The most comprehensive document about that marvelous trikster!
just found your channel, I already love it! Super interesting
thank you so much!
Thanks for an illuminating lesson in conducting styles. Have to admit that Kleiber is much more in keeping with my idea of Brahms.
Omg Ani, I loved this. It was SO clarifying. Thanks!
Thanks a lot ;)
I love Kleiber as well. Great video!
This is really interesting! Could you do more of these conductor comparisons/versions? Just became a new subscriber!
I would definitely like to see more videos like this!
I would watch a 3 hour+ version of this video and many more like it! Thanks for this.
thank you! definitely planning on doing some sequels soon :)
Good to have stumbled on this video. Amazing contrasts. Thank you.
Many years ago I tried buying audio equipment to try and compare and contrast how different ensembles and conductors come out with the same movement of the same work... A non-starter. So thanks for your effort.
(From Bangalore, India)
You should do this more often. You should have a tv show, I'd watch it every week
First time viewer!! Very interesting video and I would love ifyou make more of this comparisons to help us understand which arenrhe best versions of classical pieces. Still, you got a new suscriber!! Thanx!!!
Lovely video. Really well done. Wonderful clear explanation.
I do these type of comparisons with my (private) students after having done that with my kids when they were trying. 😂
One of my favorite examples is Gustav Mahler's 9th symphony. In one version, conducted by Bernstein and in another by Otto Klemperer. The differences are striking.
I would love to see a future video were you cover this.
Thank you for this lovely video.
Thanks for explaining something I didn't know all my life:)
Great hands! They never stop moving. Really interesting, thanks for posting!
First of all, thank you for creating this wonderful video.
I want to focus on what Carlos Kleiber did with the flute solo, he follows what I believe it was a Richard Strauss rule: "never conduct a player during a solo part". What Kleiber does was not dictate the result from inside like Bernstein: "I want that", Kleiber shows how he want to feel, so the flute player is aimed to create the most beautiful possible sound, the most delicated phrasing in order to please Kleiber spiritual feeling, and more important, to not dissapoint him.
I think this is exactly correct. That solo player should be left alone and I had a feeling which way she would go. I don't know a lot about it but Bernstein I think was a bit of an ego maniac
Bernstein is not exactly conducting the solo flute; he is drawing the strings and horn around the flute solo. That can be tricky and compromise the solo if not well done. I don't agree with Bernstein's overall conception, but it is done to such a high standard that I find it fascinating too.
I love it
Continue doing more it is great
Thanks 👍
Nice, I love Kleiber and would love to see your analysis of Kleiber conducting Beethoven 4th or 7th symphony.
What a great comparison. The nuances found in the conducting styles are little known or understood. Great piece.
Super interesting. I never appreciated what a conductor contributed to a symphony before. Thanks!
Thx for the interesting comparison we rarely do❤I wish to have a bit more music before or after your explanation. Perhaps playing a section (say, 2 minutes)of the music you explained (of both versions) gives us a better idea of the difference.
I really enjoyed this, and would like to hear other pieces. I have noticed how different conductors lead orchestras in different directions.
This was great---Kleiber clearly saw and heard the piece as a whole, manifested as one moving run-on of music. Watching Kleinber is in itself watching a performance. Would you kindly consideri comparing Kleiber's Beethoven 7th (performed with the 4th) vs. ANY other 7th.
I agree, he had such an overall feeling for every piece he conducted! I love his Beethoven's 7th so will definitely consider it for my next comparison, thanks for watching :)
I would propose Szell with Cleveland. Too bad there is no video for that.
@@howimettheopera on TH-cam there is a recording of George Solti with (I believe) the Vienna philharmonic playing the 7th by LVB. I believe it was filmed in Japan probably in the 90s. That is my all time favorite performance of Beethoven’s 7th symphony. That second movement is so moving.
@@alighieroalighieri404I thought Szell had the best Brahms’ Fourth till I heard Kleiber with the Weiner Philharmoniker (1981 - Deutsche Grammophon).
Another point about the tempo is that I believe in two places later in the movement he asks for it to get faster, so if you start too fast, you either can't get much faster, or the speed becomes just frantic. (I don't recall how Kleiber handles this.)
I loved your observation about how if Bernstein were to try to conduct that one passage in one, he'd be "hanging in the air". Sometimes the choice of one beat per measure vs conducting all the beats is based on what the conductor wants to emphasize (individual notes vs. a grouping of notes), but as often it's just about what's comfortable to conduct. If the tempo is too fast, conducting all the beats can involve impractically fast arm movements, and if it's too slow, conducting only one beat per measure can be impractical or uncomfortable in the other direction, so slow that it's hard to indicate the movement of the tempo at all.
This is a great comparison, and the kind of things that people new to listening to classical music take some time to become aware of (ie, the notion that there are even differences between different performances of the same piece, and that those differences can influence our understanding or enjoyment of the music).
(My preference: Bernstein. I think Brahms was emotionally tormented by his lifelong unrequited love for various women such as Clara Schumann and Elizabeth von Herzogenberg, and his feelings of helplessness and inadequacy in that area, and I think Bernstein plumbs those depths of emotions more successfully than most conductors. I suspect that many conductors have not had quite the same emotional experiences in their lives, and might not even recognize just how tormented Brahms was and the ways he tries to convey that through his music.)
Very instructive. Please do more.
Anna! This is fantastic. Not redundant or nerdy at all. I am not a professional musician so this speaks to my level perfectly. Do more of this please, I would love to understand phrasing better. I loved how Kleiber handled the solo flute and I think Bernstein was too micro-managing and robbed the moment from its potential magic. It makes me wonder how Bernstein handles the solo oboe in the middle of the 1st movement in Beethoven's 5th. The oboe at that point is meant to play freely the way they want, is that correct? If you are going to do more I would be fascinated if you created a series comparing Bernstein vs Karajan on all the Beethoven Symphonies.
Good show, love Carlos
Informative. Interesting. Thank you!
very interesting. thanks for posting
Great video! Very well articulated. I found it because I searched for anything Kleiber :)
glad you enjoy it and thanks for watching!
Hi, thank you so much for this!
They are so few of such videos on TH-cam, this is precious :)
Do not hesitate to do more, even nerdier if you feel like it.
If you are looking for feedback: maybe you could follow a script more so that the points you are making get across more directly.
Great video!
Thank you for making this. Very interesting!
This was great! Looking for more examples
This is such a great video!
I also really enjoyed this. I’ve really learn a lot watching your videos.😄
You did a fantastic job. Congratulation. Keep doing this good work.
Remarkable presentation . Thank you
Thank you so much. Lacking formal music training, you've given me the tools to discern just how much interpretation is possible in classical music performance. As a lover of Jazz, I am now going to challenge myself to listen critically to multiple recordings of the same Classical composition. One thing I discovered from your side-by-side examples: Bernstein looks for the drama-- very consistent with his persona, no? Kleiber seems more ethereal. I'll be dramatic but sincere: you have forever changed my relationship to orchestral classical performance. And motivated me to explore and enrich my musical life.
I like very much your explanations. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
awesome... simply awesome... keep up doing such videos... Loved this discussion...
Thanks a lot!
Very good analysis, like it, thank you for your work.
I agree with your choice on every level. It reminded me of something Benjamin Zander says a lot about romantic music - it is all in one, and that interpretation makes so much sense to me.
I’ve loved your video. We knew that the conductors make differences, a lot of differences, however, with my amateur eyes and ears these differences referred rather to general soul and sound of the music piece. You’ve really dissected sounds in the 4th movement of Brahms-4th and passed your message. The conductor meant way more than I though, in many many details. Wow, such good explanation. Thank you…
Greatful, to have found this. 😊