Leonard Bernstein Discussing Beethoven's 6th and 7th Symphony
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ม.ค. 2011
- Leonard Bernstein and Maximilian Schell discuss some of the aspects of the Symphony No. 6 "Pastoral" and Symphony No. 7 by Ludwig Van Beethoven. They also discuss his life and how he composed some of his music.
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I could listen to Bernstein talking about music until the end of time and never get bored.
He is so eloquent. He carries it in his soul.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could hear him expound on music - and society today.
Me Two
Gotta love Bernstein’s personality. Strong bones and strong hands usually translate into a personality. He talks with great subtlety about delicate things, but his body says “rough”, “powerful”, “get out of my fucking way” assertiveness.
Without Beethoven I would never had made it through high school.
Without Beethoven, I probably wouldn't have made it, period...
True, that!
y not lady gaga
Without Beethoven I can't get through the work day.
How you could not love Bernstein after listening him discussing music is beyond me. His passion for music is entrancing.
Agree or disagree with Bernstein. His intellect and art are both eloquent and accessible. A truly unique talent and educator. His Norton lectures are a treasure.
Les Goe surfin now Everybody’s fuguing now come on let’s tickle the ivories !
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Perfect statement. I don't care if I disagree or agree, I'm learning so much by the second. At 67 years old!
What's fascinating about Beethoven's struggles to come up with the right notes, as Berstein describes here, is that Beethoven was a supreme improviser. Beethoven's struggles are more a reflection of his uncompromising will for perfection.
Agree.
Absolutely brilliant observation. The reason I don’t enjoy composing myself is because of my natural ability to instantly improvise melodies and it drives me insane to compose. I can never choose what to put down, there are are too many choices and decision to create, as Bernstein puts it, the “form”. That’s why creating ambient sound scapes based on vertical layering with no discernible beginning or end to the composition, as opposed to a linear melody, is enjoyable to me.
stellar point, I would imagine that Beethoven had an endless amount of avenues he could venture into. While improvising, those avenues could be explored and then vanish as soon as he finished playing. Writing down the notes on paper might have made every choice feel so much more critical to get correct, because once you publish a piece its permanent.
Hence just nine symphonies compared to Haydn's 104.
@@NohSpinZone
104! Jeez ... I didn’t know he composed that many! And Haydn, like Beethoven, was a genius.
Leonard Bernstein & Maximilian Schell. Two great men. One a legendary music composer and the other a legendary actor. Both sadly gone but not forgotten.
Mr. Bernstein was the best music teacher I ever had! I never missed any of his young people's concerts. Total genius!
What musical genius could ever claim that Beethoven was not a great melody writer? Perhaps a jealous fool who never produced anything substantial himself, whose works are completely irrelevant only a few decades after being produced.
@@willashland4597why would a music lecturer hate on Beethoven while tecching about him? Dont you think you re mistaking a musical scholar concept for hate? If you listen to Bernstein more often you d know how he establish the difference between melody, harmony, symphony.. you re the one spurrign jealousy here with your comment.
@@dimitricayard630 Bernstein is not qualified to speak on Beethoven in the slightest. As I said before, Beethoven was a fantastic melodist and composer of harmony. As a student of music myself I am more than qualified to speak on the three elements of music (melody, harmony, rhythm... not symphony as you stated).
If Bernstein says Beethoven was a lackluster conposer of melodies, or that any child could have composed the second movement of the 7th Symphony, then I say Bernstein is talking out of his ass.
No hate, just recognizing that there are levels to these things. And while Bernstein is a great keyboard player and conductor, he is a lackluster composer since most people and even music fans are completely unfamiliar with his forgettable works.
@@willashland4597 allow me to point out that you are either funny or lack some coherence here. while You are using the fact that you are a musical student to refute Berstein's comment on Beethoven, do you even ask yourself from which kind of right does Berstein allows himself to comment on Beethoven lol? Berstein might have been just a random man trying to comment on magicals composers to make a living lol ? You re using your scholar background to diminish the work of a far greater scholar than you. Come on now. "wise" yourself down a bit. By the way I wish you success in your musical studies. I appreciate anything others can do better than me. Peace !
@@dimitricayard630 It sounds to me like you are committing an appeal to authority fallacy here. Your claim seems to be that Bernstein is a high ranking professor of music, therefore he must be right and we cannot understand it because we are so far beneath his credentials. This is a form of elitism which gives maybe too much validity to training and stature and underemphasizes one's own capabilities.
By music student, I mean that I have played music all my life. I know pieces by Beethoven, Chopin, Debussy, Rachmaninoff, and can elaborate on the musical theory, the imagery and expression, the technique, and many other things. This doesn't give me the same esteem as Bernstein but I can certainly hold my own when discussing a certain piece of music.
I just think Bernstein's claims about Beethoven are crap. Some individuals with esteem will use their unique position to make claims that seem exactly opposite to what is actually true, because they believe their position allows them to make a seemingly contradictory and incorrect claim which would only add to their esteem and mystique since the unwashed mortals could never possibly understand it. I think that is what Bernstein did here, sort of using his prestige to make an outlandish claim knowing that few other people living would have the reputation to even question it publicly. There is a lot of elitism in academic and concert circles, and a lot of people sniffing their own farts. I think this is a video of Bernstein sniffing his own farts but they will never be as good as Beethoven's
When he said the "negatives" about Beethoven, he was trying to tell you that Beethoven was able to create those beautiful pieces out of the melodies and harmonies that appear to be so simple. That was the gist of his words, everything else was not as important! As he said, Beethoven was doing what no one else could. He was not trying to judge Beethoven, but rather, praise the genius in Beethoven in his own way. A great upload. Thanks!
One genius speaking about another. This sort of thing should happen more often in life.
I can't imagine growing up without Beethoven. Bernstein's Children's Concert's were a delight for my whole family.
in a world of twitter and youtube where everyone is an expert it's a joy to listen, even if only for 8 minutes, to a real expert
I could listen to him for hours.
🙏🤗💜🧡💛💚🎵🎶🎵🎶
What makes Beethoven unique to me is that from an almost non-melody he was able to weave what, to me, is among the most beautiful, expressive and emotive melodies of all. Every note of the 6th Symphony astounds me but, without fail, when a few bars of the simplest woodwind phrase enters in the final movement, it provokes the most profound reaction in me. It sends me close to tears every time without fail and, even though my ear knows it intimately by now, it continues to astound me. These are tears not of sadness but of an indescribable beauty. A simple phrase makes the whole symphony complete. That's Beethoven for me. The individual bars are unremarkable surely, but every one of them is necessary, appropriate, required.
Nicely expressed.
Graham, this is beautifully expressed. I think Bernstein misses a very important point you made: the building blocks he uses are not important. The effect of the whole is what's important. To me, Beethoven's melodies are the most beautiful of all because they're the most evocative and emotionally salient. It doesn't matter that their basic building blocks might by themselves be uninteresting. The basic building blocks are not the melody. The whole is the melody. So to me Beethoven is the greatest melodist we've had because of the emotional effect his melodies produce on the listener.
@@julieconnard4372 I agree with you Julie. Beethoven IS one of the greatest melodists who ever lived, however he arrived at them. I think Bernstein is fascinating whenever he talks about music but he is also a controversialist (not unlike Beethoven). Tovey had a better idea of Beethoven and melody when he said that Beethoven transforms/ transfigures melody into something higher, something else (I can't remember the exact words but it was along those lines). Glenn Gould was another great teacher and thinker about music who also liked to put forward controversial ideas. Thank God for them all.
@davetubervid Indeed, thank God for them all. I really like what Tovey said, about Beethoven transfiguring melody into something higher. I think that's a perfect understanding of him. And I think that's why Beethoven took longer to write than Mozart or Haydn. B wasn't looking for melody for its own sake. he was looking for something higher. And for our sake, it's a darned good thing that he so often found it.
If only Mozart had remained alive to hear Beethoven’s symphonies, all nine of them. Mozart was most influenced by Bach but if he had listened to the mature Beethoven it would have had a profound effect on his music.
I don't know what's more enjoyable to listen to: The way Bernstein conducts Beethoven; or the way Bernstein talks about Beethoven.
I agree!
Yes, that's what I was thinking. His talk drives one to go back and listen to those portions.
“In Beethoven’s case, it is always the right next note.” Pretty much sums it up.
But people say the same about some other composers as well like Bach and Mozart. I think it's more Bernstein expressing a romantic view of art.
@@starry2006 totally agreed.
I enjoyed watching this video even though I had no clue what he was talking about.
You're an idiot! :)
I was referring to the idea that fartx211 was trying to understand this video and not enjoy it. Great art is supposed to transcend things like trying to understand it as opposed to just feeling it. Maybe I was a little harsh at this person. And I respect your point of view, even if you called me an asshole.
REMORF AND CFC: I speak to both of your apparent deficits: the abundant musical ones and your low-level of comprehension. Your noises are little more than the abject commentaries of puerile poseurs. You have, apparently, missed your true callings as bear-trainers or swine-herds. I have some Mistletoe, left over from Xmas, it's taped to the small of my back, please feel free to come over and put it to use....anytime.....
Show less
Peace Alex Reik. I should've further indicated my ":)" symbol after I said "You're an idiot." I guess sarcasm and humor are hard to indicate in print.
no words..
Bernstein was the greatest American-born conductor, a fine American composer of classical music who was also composed the music for arguably the most popular Broadway musical (West Side Story). He was also a very good pianist and a wonderful teacher. His passion and his love for Beethoven is obvious. It's not that we have to agree with everything Bernstein has to say about the music, it's that his enthusiasm, his passion, his ability to express deep musical theory in accessible yet articulate language, that also causes us to love the music. America's most famous psychologist, BF Skinner, once said something along the lines that school's shouldn't teach children to read, they should teach children to love books. That's what Bernstein does, he teaches us to love music. Bernstein's thoughts on Beethoven are well-taken, at least by me. He's not putting Beethoven down because other composers could do some things better than Beethoven. He's saying that Beethoven's hard work and creative genius is what makes the music great despite some obvious limitations. Bernstein's first Beethoven cycle that he made for Columbia with the New York Philharmonic is my favorite above Karajan, Furtwangler, Szell, Hogwood, Toscanini and all others I've heard.
Beautifully said! I love what you said about Beethoven's creative genius, the whole being more than the sum of its parts. Bernstein really revered Beethoven and "knew" him well. Lenny was supremely gifted and talented, but I think his ability to teach and convey his love of music was his greatest gift of all. When you watch him conduct, it's as though he can't contain his joy. I have a CD set of Bernstein and the NY Phil doing the cycle of Beethoven's symphonies, along with several overtures and the Violin Concerto (Isaac Stern!)...I have a couple of major road trips coming in the Fall, and I can't wait to spend some quality time with Ludwig van, Lenny, Isaac and the NY Phil!
one might say beethoven's greatness was borne of his ability to build magnificent music out of very meager material. that's probably why he wrote it.
@coach garcia I love the skinner comparison. Lenny loved music and it bled into everything he did. And like a good hearted child with extra candy, he wanted to share it. And I agree about his conducting. I love Von Karajan and especially Kleiber. But there was a magic when Lenny conducted Beethoven. Especially the symphonies. No one did the third or the sixth like him. Magical.
Can you give me a few examples of people who taught deep musical theory who were not accessible and articulate in their language? I'd like to contrast their approach to doing so with Bernstein's.
It is the only musical I like cuz he wrote the score - his taste is impeccable
What a guy to learn from. Knew his music inside and out and, at least as importantly, knew how to convey it.
Yes! We casually smoked in those days..... What a moment, to hear about Beethoven's struggles and issues, and see Maximilian Schell spellbound by Bernstein..... Thank you!
Bernstein died aged 72 of heart failure (premature), but he was subject to frequent respiratory infections, emphysema and had some kind of pulmonary tumor.
@@karinberryman7970 Hell, what is "premature" at 72. My best friend died at 24 in a climbing accident, I think that 72 is a good age.
The Maestro was perfect in every way. The genius of geniuses. He can do no wrong on my eyes. I was born with his music playing and I’ll be lowered with his music playing.
Me too !
I got goosebumps at the end of this. I've got to hear more of Bernstein's insights into great composers because I think his analyses are brilliant.
I LOVE B'S 6TH PASTORAL, ITS BEAUTIFUL & UNIQUE☺☺☺its my favorite ever written!!
4:03 Beethoven's musical talent transforms serious faces into smiling faces. What a moment and what a melody indeed!
Great explanation, which I still don't fully understand (after 40 yrs of playing music), but I love Bernstein pulling his cig out at 1.40 without missing a beat explaining Beethovens concept and approach. A true legend.
I( was lucky enough to buy (in early 1960s) a Beethovens 3rd symphony which included an EP of Leonard Berstein discussing the sympnony. I have been an absolute admirer of his depth and understanding of his passion for Beethoven since then
Always fascinating...ever knowledgable...Schell like many of us found him captivating. For me, his piano performing, and role as teacher were the highlight of his world, and his gifts.
Very interesting how the melody launches on a single note carried to a full bloom by basically ornamentations. Great lectures. Makes me experience music with a renewed freshness.
really enjoyed Berstein's explanation of Beethoven's greatness. it is the form.
Lennie, I can forgive the wrong notes in lieu of the vast information, and style you impart to us with your cunning insight into the musical creativity of our Beethoven. Spreading knowledge was your souls gift, and I hope that continues into the next realm.
😒
I just wanted to say, thanks very much for uploading this, I hadn't seen it before. It meant a lot. What Bernstein said resonated with me. Cheers.
"You like that melody? You do? So do I.
newenglandartiste Sexy Maestro!!.
@@SarahJones-wy5us Greatness! Leonard Bernstein was from Lawrence Massachusetts about 45 min. from me.
@@newenglandartiste Did you ever see him?
@@SarahJones-wy5us No, I didn't unfortunately.
Are you a musician and fan of both Bernstein and Beethoven?
TWO EXCEPTIONAL...TWO BEAUTIFUL SOULS....RIP
You completely missed the point. What Lenny was talking about is not the ability of finding the missing note of a given melody or harmony like in a music school test, but just the genius of creating music that sounds impredictable yet so right and inevitable like Beethoven's. Otherwise, you must agree, all trained composers could be him. Bernstein speech must be taken in a metaphoric and broader way, trying to explain what otherwise is hardly explicable: Beethoven's Gestalt.
A common term for this is "unexpected inevitability", and is applicable to other art forms like literature.
Lenny? Seriously?
@@topophil 😂😂
WOW! Bernstein always blows my mind, specially on Beethoven..Thx for uploading!
"As far as his orchestration is concerned, you could have it...the melodies go like that..." lol I love how Lenny talks.
Brilliant lesson here. Two great artists, now sadly no longer with us, talking about an even greater one who died nearly two centuries ago.
That was the most apt summation I have ever heard about the man who was Beethoven.
This was a little hypnotic. His authority is stunning and it's natural. Two gorgeous men right there.
Fascinating!
At 7:05 Maximilian Schell asks Bernstein what makes Beethoven interesting..... and Lenny's answer is probably the pithiest, yet most profound, statement of what makes Beethoven great. Maybe the greatest. _"And what has finally appeared as the finished product looks as though it was simply phoned in from God."_ Hard to believe that Bernstein has been gone for over 30 years! And yet, thanks to his recordings and something he'd never even heard of in his life, the Internet, his wisdom lives on for future generations.
Max - was für ein feinfühliger und schöner Mann er war..
we need more of this! tks
I love listening to Berstein. I love his conducting as well. He was truly a master of insight.
Bernstein says that Beethoven was not this or that but he implies that Beethoven was about much more than individual components. Clearly this is someone who studied Beethoven like few by considering manuscripts, historical context and even accounts from Beethoven's personal life! I just think that it's easy-and cheap really- to simplify Bernstein's argument to "Beethoven was a bad orchestrator" despite the fact that that's what he literally says. There's something to be said about the fact that Bernstein's last concert was Beethoven 7.
I just think most viewers miss the point.
Well said!
I hear what you say. Bernstein likes to be provocative. i suspect he really meant that beethoven didn't follow all of the rules of music theory. but in so doing he managed to create greatness from relatively meager material, such as the fugal material beginning the second movement of his seventh symphony.
Imagine if Beethoven suddenly burst into the room and shouted SCHEISSE!!!!
Why should Beethoven shout:"Scheisse"?
Because his ears were burning
@@ishtar2848 because all the Berstein staff was bull shit!!!!
If Beethoven burst into the room he’s ask Lenny to bum a cigarette
"Das ist scheissemusik!"😣
This is absolutely fantastic!
Beautiful Depth that helps me to connect with the master's art.
Imagine sitting with a man of such true talent
You can see Bernstein's playful, flirtatious (even with another man!) spirit at around 5:50. That smile creeping across his face, as he goes on to ask a schoolboyish, docilely-listening Schell, "Do you like that melody? You do? So do I." Always has me roaring with laughter. One of my favourite clips on YT!
longtalker What an earth do you mean? "even with another man" Bernstein was GAY.
@@SarahJones-wy5us What's your point? Lenny was charismatic and very much a social animal. Just because he was bisexual doesn't mean he had sexual feelings for every man, just as a straight person doesn't have sexual feelings towards everyone of the opposite sex.
@@annedwyer797
The point is wasted on you ,in the earlier comment it was thought amazing that Bernstein could flirt with another man,that is the "Point" you totally misconstrued.
Didn't know he was, but the thought entered my mind just by listening to his voice in this clip
Divine sound, what an awesome piano player
That last part, beautifully put!
Fascinating. I am a music-lover with no training in music. My tastes are broad, and I have always held Bernstein in the very highest regard as a composer. And here he uses the very words-the very words-that I use to describe his work to describe Beethoven: each note in every piece is unpredictable but inevitable and the only possible option which resonates with the work as a whole. Bernstein here claims the Beethoven wrote as if he had a telephone connection with God. I’ve often thought the same of Bernstein.
The creative temperament and tapping into the vast reservoir of talent. A true genius.
Leonard Bernstein. A giant in music , an exceptional talent.. One of the best!
Thanks so very much for taking the time to give me information to track it down. I'll buy it.
I want to have a drink and wax poetic about Beethoven with Lenny. This was great. Thank you.
7:26
One of the rare TH-cam videos that has no dislikes
probably one of the best practical demonstrations of developing variation
When I was a kid my mother used to make me watch Leonard Bernstein on the weekends when he had his PBS show. I'm appreciating him now.
Interesting drawing room fare with two guys who reached the top of their professions. Both Lenny and Max have left us. Lenny reached the top of the music world and Maximilian Schell (who passed just over a year ago as of this writing, in Feb 2014), earned a 1962 Academy Award for best actor.
"Judgment at Nuremberg" is a great film, and Schell is great in it, along with Spencer Tracy.
Very well said, your comment
It's always so interesting to hear Lennie talk music. And that Beethoven is not a great melodist, which I've often thought, but I thought it would get me trouble to say so.
Try Ben Zander too!
I am your 1000 suscriptor. From Perú. Congratulations!! Thanks for the musical gift
I love B.'s melodies.
I do have two volumes of his correspondence and conversation books. A great book I would recommend is the "Beethoven Compendium," edited by Barry Cooper. There's a great essay in there called "Beethoven as an Individual," wherein the author talks about LvB's chronic illnesses (and there were many), but says "...in spite of his poor health he appeared robust, and his productivity was surprisingly little affected." Quite a different picture from Bernstein's!
Here is my take on Beethoven's supposed lack of a melodic gift. When he wanted to, he could write a melody up there with anybody--the G Major intermezzo in the slow movement of the 9th Symphony, the cello solo at the beginning of the slow movement of Op. 59 #1, the second theme of the slow movement of the Second Symphony etc. etc. etc. But the thing about a gorgeous melody a la Tchaikovsky is that it has a beginning, a middle, and end--and then you are done. You either have to repeat it, get locked in a sequence or, as Prokofiev did all too often, pull a Monty Python "And now for something completely different" move. A very few composers--Schubert, Dvorak--got around this problem with a relaxed, digressive style, but this was not in Beethoven's musical character. And it is interesting to note that in many of Schubert's most compelling large-scale structures, such as the Ninth Symphony and the G Major Quartet, he eschews conventionally beautiful melodies much of the time. So Beethoven needed building blocks which were not complete in themselves to create a continuous compelling structure.
yeah the problem is that Bernstein restricted his definition of melody to an arching sequence of notes found in others like Tchaikovsky. It's pretty weird since he's quite fond of Stravinsky's le Sacre du Printemps, which in it's entirety is filled with Stravinsky constructing giant structures by combining small phrases without a classical, arching melody
Nocynic: I really like your angle of approach, and I couldn't agree more. Another example of this is the slow movement of Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto, beholden to Mozart but with several twists and turns that are totally Beethoven... Often it isn't about the melody but what he can do with variations to enhance the original melody - therein lies his stunning ability to surprise. For those that think Beethoven wasn't a great melodist (along with his uncanny ability to develop a melody) I think his song "Adelaide" is a great example to the contrary. Schubert definitely admired this one. Cheers, FB th-cam.com/video/oACZdxbGmqw/w-d-xo.html
@@skisunfb But the surprise element you mention there (which can relate to others like Mozart perhaps) suggests there isn't that inevitability. That would make something too predictable, so I think Bernstein romanticises. Mozart and Bach probably flow more in general.
Yes, extended interesting coherence is much harder than a series of coherent fragments. For example, Rachmaninoff but not Mahler.
@@NewMusicWeekly For me, that depends on which Mahler you are talking about. I would agree that a number of his middle period symphonies are rather diffuse. But the First, Second, and Ninth have extraordinary structural integrity.
Absolutely beautiful
I learn so much listening to Bernstein
Got it wrong
...Leonard Bernstein was saying..That He Loved Beethoven In that his Genius was in the Form of his Efforts not The Technical Melodic Orchestra Arrangements
One, two, or three notes. Then shift and elaborate. Majesty is achieved with deceptive simplicity.
I think that Bernstein was spot on when he talked about buds and flowers opening in Beethoven’s music . .
I get a wonderful feeling that the soul of the music/composer is *unfurling* as it goes along
God the chemistry , can feel the fire!
Lenny, we miss you so much !
I love how Bernstein talks about Beethoven's ability to produce music that was 'inevitable'. The notes, chords, movement of the music are as they were ment to be.
It's interesting, the very music Bernstein is playing is orchestrated brilliantly. The flowing brook played by two muted cellos is a stroke of genius.
Good video for a rainy Friday morning
Absolute legend.
"the note that was coming next was always inevitable", absolutely, it's the total sense of it.
Many viewers of this vid may not know that Maximilian Schell was an accomplished amateur pianist.
I certainly didnt know it.
Yea and you may be aware that your comment has no relevance to what's being discussed. Smh...
Or, maybe it's nice to learn trivia about a famous actor that lends a bit of extra interest to the interview.
I know him as an accomplished actor. I could tell that he was a good musician the way he went through the score so easily.
@@Lee_music249 It doesn't have any relevance? Bernstein explaining these things to an obviously well-trained musician is much different than explaining it to a non-musician. it's very relevant seeing how two musicians work together to gain a better understanding of a piece of music.
I waited the whole video to see Lenny light up that cig, and they clipped it
Even as a child I was enthralled by the slow movement of the 7th --- now Bernstein has explained why -- it was simply 'phoned in from God' .... brilliant comment!
We agree...his music seems already done and perfect
@christopher19894 Personally, I like how he talks about it more. He makes the music just so fascinating.
how fucking cool are these two
ikr
everything is so unpredictable and yet so right! Agree!!!
Fascinating 👏👏👏
I don't agree with everything Bernstein says here but his basic point that Beethoven's genius was about form is spot on. Most of Beethoven's melodies are on the level of nursery rhymes but then he moves on from there and creates an irresistible flow that moves on and on with a sense of "inevitability" as Bernstein says.
Ode to Joy a nursery rhyme? Come on...seriously.
@@ferabra8939 It really is pretty simple nursery rhyme level, Beethoven is honestly overrated
@@ferabra8939 Even that is derived from Mozart th-cam.com/video/jvwhSkChsdo/w-d-xo.html
Despite Bernstein’s puzzling critical comments, in the end he acknowledges Beethoven’s unparalleled heaven sent genius.
I don't think his criticism is puzzling, and I find it all the more admirable that he opens with scathing critique, to end his story with some of the most profound praise I've ever heard of a composer's work.
@@thenobody7904
That's your opinion and not Lenny's. You can't call an opinion untrue....
@@thenobody7904
And again, you simply can not ''prove'' why X or Y is good or bad. It's all opinions, and this is what Bernstein thought. Wether harmony or melody is good or not isn't maths or science-something you can prove-it's all opinions. You cannot prove an opinion is false, nor can you prove a melody is objectively good. Simple as that.
@@thenobody7904
Again, this is utter tripe. Just because you think you can prove a melody is good, doesn't mean everyone who hears it thinks it is good, because the quality of all art is opinion based. Good day, you literal nobody.
@@thenobody7904
"Yes, maybe for them it is but objectively..."
And that's when I stopped reading. A hilariously ironic and contradicting sentence my friend.
Grato a você que postou esta magnifica obra aqui na Internet.Conheço-a como especial opção, como abertura para grandes concertos atravez do mundo. Sou admirador da música de qualidade, a qual não é muito apreciada pelos organismos de divulgação de nosso paíz, infelizmente. Entretanto o povo gosta; desde que seja executada.
amazing insight
I don't agree that Beethoven never wrote a great fugue. I think that is a nonsense suggestion when Op. 106 exists, arguably one of the greatest fugues ever.
I agree with you but I think what Bernstein meant was that compared to Beethoven's achievement in getting the right form or inevitable notes, his achievement in any particular aspect of music is relatively pale. He wasn't a strong melodist and nor exceptional in counterpoint; one can't really be a great conventional fugue writer without being both. The Grosse Fuge is great but not in the conventional why -- which is what make it exceptional, but also makes Beethoven *not* a conventional fugue composer.
Absolutely. Beethoven's struggle with producing outstanding melodies burdened him (probably) in the same way that Tchaikovsky struggled with form of his larger works. The two composers had almost mirror opposite problems.
It's a true scotsman argument to say that Beethoven didn't write a good fugue. What is a 'good fugue'? What is a fugue? Both questions are imponderable.
1st movement of op. 131 string quartet is one of my favourite fugues of all time with very unconventional harmony, its hauntingly beautiful and musically communicates futility and hopelessness in the doomed pursuit of hope. I don't agree with that either!
Classical Music11 of course! 👍
So I just watched this video where Bernstein declares that the second movement of the 7th isn't much of a melody. My girlfriend overheard that small piano part from the other room, apparently has it stuck in her head, and is now humming the entire movement to herself while she works on the computer. I think that makes a statement.
It's typical because of Bernstein's academic background to consider a melody good if it follows certain rules. Beethoven wasn't capable of creating this classical definition of melody (check out sonata 13 mov. 2), but he was merely composing that way because he wanted it that way at that instance
@@lordspongebobofhousesquare1616 Exactly Beethoven didn't compose melodies the "right way" but I think he is basically saying that you can't judge Beethoven by these conventional standards
I’m so grateful for these videos resurfacing. He should have lived longer.
Beethoven is the greatest composer of all-time.
Tm
He did not say he was bad at any of those things. He said that if you look at Beethoven from a purely melodical standpoint he is fallible, and if you change melodical to harmonical it's the same thing looking at it individually. But thankfully music isn't always about that to the listener but everything as a whole, which Beethoven proves.
How would you rank Beethoven's symphonies? I'd go with:
1. 9th
2. 3rd
3. 5th
4. 6th
5. 7th
6. 8th
7. 4th
8. 1st
9. 2nd
9th and 3rd are so universally acclaimed, that's it's not a surprise, 9th has more of the grandeur that I find more appealing. I had a harder time picking between 5th, 6th, and 7th. 5th has absolutely legendary outer movements, so I picked it 3rd, while the 6th is strong overall with a more gentle mood when, 7th maybe has the most rousing final movement after incredible movements 1 and 2. 8th is very cleverly composed, but lacks any proper slow movement, 4th has an amazing fast part of the 1st movement, but it doesn't strike that deeply emotionally. Symphonies 1st and 2nd aren't as good as the rest, they have more classical period characteristics. Early piano sonatas by Beethoven are already very strong musically, but he truly found his very own orchestral language in the 3rd symphony. 1st has more compelling subjects than the 2nd for me. , I know you like the 2nd more.
Aaaah Bernstein.....what a gift to us!
Brilliant!!!!
"You couldn't call it a melody" (slow mvt of the 7th). If a melody is a sequence of notes then by definition it's a melody. With re to it repeating the same note, it is because of this (not in spite of this) that it is a great musical creation. Beethoven creates greatness with his single note melody. And that IS the sign of a great melodist.
So true!!
It is also possible to know quite a bit about the fugue, and see Beethoven's contrapuntal writing not as "bad" but as transformative to his own inner voice and process of shaping an emotional statement. I think it's a serious mistake to assume that because Beethoven did not compose "perfect" fugues that he was somehow incompetent...that is what's being insinuated here.
I love this...
lots of love and admirations from me...Xx