In 3:55 I use the word "slurred" when I actually mean "tied". Sadly those two words are almost identical in Spanish and brain went no good speak bad. I think what I meant is still clear but just in case ;)
Holy cow. Been a musician for 60 years (including 10 years in a major symphony orchestra) and never knew of this distinction! Not that I would have played anything differently....
@@TheConsarnedCitizenInteresting! I wish I could say I had your background! I went to college for music many moons ago but never did anything with that degree. I came to the comments specifically for this reason. They look the same but a slur connects two or more different notes and a tie connects two or more of the same note (usually one tie connecting only two notes and additional ties if more than two notes tied together). Very cool video and crazy to see the vast variations in interpretations!
"...brain went no good speak bad." Even though I'm a native English speaker, I am SO stealing that phrasing for the next time what my brain sends to my mouth doesn't match the idea I had.
Hello Anna, I am a Classical Music Presenter on FM Radio in Melbourne Australia. You are outstanding as a teacher too. I have had 60 years in Classical Music and you are one of the best voices I have heard with great authority and clarity of understanding. Thank you ROBERT
Hi, i am not alone :D But i need to add we are talking about classical music, what is 2 years compare to this? xD And good content is more important, then "fresh" content.
I appreciated your careful observation of the 'extra' bar that Kleiber shows, tied to the second fermata. That precision was actually quite common to his work. He had a reputation as a supremely charismatic and inventive-rhapsodic conductor, and it was earned. BUT: the depth and concision of his score study was extraordinary. His players were aware of this, at all times. He marked his parts fastidiously, and additionally left his players little Kleibergrams with further detailed instructions, plus flattery and jokes. They always knew what he wanted, and why. When he would occasionally stop conducting altogether -- mid-performance -- he could pay his players no higher compliment. CK had the gift of showing everything, and nothing, as required. This is indeed most unusual, and helps account for his unique reputation. Michael Walsh of TIME Magazine, on hearing Kleiber's recording of the Fifth with Vienna, realized what Kleiber had achieved: "It was as if Homer had come back to recite the Iliad." Indeed.
What he did adds clarity. Beethoven wrote it the way he did for good reason, and Kleiber is showing it to the orchestra explicitly. I can’t think of a conductor who respected the score more than Kleiber. And that includes Toscanini, who said one thing and did another, e.g., Bolero, En Saga. I loved your book about Kleiber. He left us too soon.
It's a paradox, eh? CK was concise and precise as required by the scores he knew so well. This acquitted him the freedom he needed in order to explore as imaginatively as his fabulous ear and technique permitted. He had it both ways, and this is rarity. YES re Toscanini. In my early education he was a god of authenticity. One day, my teacher gave me a recording of his Brahms 1, iv, an urtext of same, and an assignment: come back with a report on the differences. Good Lord. I had no idea. I'm glad you enjoyed the book. Thank you. It will be 20 years this July... You would have liked him. He really was as witty as advertised. @@donaldallen1771
Yes! Well said. I’m 76 and when I was about 14 (?), Beethoven’s 5th was probably the my first introduction to orchestral music. All of a sudden, the musical universe was revealed. I LOVED THIS SYMPHONY. And, of course I still do. I have perhaps 7 or 8 versions by various conductors. The Kleiber is my favourite, so I’m pleased Anna’s discussion used his example….. 11:31
I've always been fascinated as I listen to the varied openings of this symphony (for 70 years now!) --- your discussion is right on the mark and appropriately gracious, and extremely interesting!
My name is Ina and I'm a 76-yo classical music lover who started swimming laps in my late 60's; I met the challenge of remembering which lap I'm up to at any given time by playing a theme in my head from some favorite piece associated with that particular number; e.g., Bach's Brandenburg #1 for Lap-1, 2nd movement of Beethoven's 2nd symphony for Lap-2, etc. Naturally, lap 5 would be the opening of Beethoven's 5th, but until I saw this wonderful presentation I ultimately got somewhat bored with that -- it felt so "war-horsey", if you get my drift, to the extent that for awhile I switched to The Trout which as a quintet was a reasonable proxy for "Number-5". But your education here about "the second time around" fremata made that opening so amazingly interesting that now I'm back to my old fave, making sure to pay attention to that longer pause and relishing in it. Now I'm sure you didn't make this video to help septuagenarians keep in shape, but I gotta tell you I never stop my swim-workout before Lap #5 because I don't want to miss that long-pause ... So, Thanks!
I liked the video just from the title, anything with Beethoven in it is paradise for me :) Then I watched the video and I now wish there was a double like button! I'm loving your videos of this format, explaining the music's technical side in a way that someone like me, who can't even read notes, let alone more details about how to interpret them, can understand... Thanks for these videos and keep up the good work!
Although there is no double like button, you can express your feelings by triple liking. Or, if you want to go above and beyond, do a quintuple like. Just make sure to use an odd number of likes and not an even one. 😀
Insanely edge trivia here, but morse code uses dit-dit-dit-dah for V is because of Beethoven's V symphony. Which comes around to the movie The Longest Day using Beethoven's Fifth because "V-for-Victory" is shown by three short flashes followed by a long one.
@@kamalhashmi9851 It was only a couple of years ago that I found out that ..._ for V was a tribute to Beethoven. I didn't realize that the time gap was long enough: 1808 (Beethoven's 5th) to 1840 (Morse Code gets letters).
@@markeddy9169 Sigh. Unfortunately it isn't - the choice of '...-' for V was made totally independently. It was approx as common a letter as B which was chosen to be '---.' In Morse (the very common letters like E have shorter codes and the rare letters like X longer codes). Nothing to do with Beethoven. Also, symphonies (& quartets, concertos etc) are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4 etc not I, II, II, IV, etc - no-one writes it as Beethoven's Symphony V. During the Second World War: "it became the BBC European Service's call sign and interval sign. Across Occupied Europe people hummed and whistled the tune, and in Britain the V made its way onto badges and other items. Prime Minister Churchill made the sign his trademark." The 'V' actually started in Belgium! See www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0gbz0y1 (you may need a VPN from overseas. Shhh, I never told you)
As an orchestra principal player, I find your videos quite interesting, thank you! Many times when doing Beethoven's 5th the first rehearsal ends up taking a considerable amount of time to get the 1st movement opening right. Frequently the cut-off for the 2nd fermata will be(or in my mind, should be)the down beat to the next bar, and the orchestra will commonly hesitate coming in, and that's where the problems of ensemble happen. I have to say I LOVE Kleiber's Vienna Philharmonic 5th recording very much....but as far as I'm concerned Kleiber can do no wrong in my mind.
I think the purpose of starting in a silence is to not stress the first note, so it's dadadaDA otherwise would be DAdadaDA. Beethoven manages to start the gesture always that way thru de movement. The other thing I heard is that a slur implied a diminuendo, a tapering on volume according to 19th practice. Some conductos do that on "period" performances.
Hi Anna, here’s another Classical Music Presenter on FM radio in Australia, this time in Brisbane. I agree with my colleague in Melbourne. Your explanations are lucid and informative. The Kléber was especially fascinating. As someone who’s played in orchestras, I appreciate his signalling the tempo before the downbeat and giving that gesture at the connection-point between the two tied notes that keeps the tempo going for the musicians. Thank you for what you’re offering and I hope a lot of people get to learn from your videos.
What an amazing video! ^^ I think Beethoven's fifth symphony is SO famous that most conductors prefer to push themselves into new interpretations, so that there aren't too similar versions. "Everyone knows this, so i will be a little bit different".
Anna, not only am I a musician -- I'm an opera singer - but I'm an aspiring conductor. I'd LOVE if possible to discuss with you composers, conductors, compositions, technique, inspiration, etc. I have several ''favorite'' interpretations of Beethoven 5. Overall, nowadays I gravitate toward Karajan's interpretation from the early 1980s. However, Szell's interpretation from the early-mid 1960s with the Concertgebouw is thrilling and brilliant as well. The ''best'' interpretation of the ''Scherzo: Allegro'' (3rd Movement) is from a mono, 1953 recording of the Concertgebouw under Erich Kleiber. Incidentally, I have written a film short that's directly inspired by this Symphony. It's entitled, ''Beethoven's Fifth; OR: A Design For Living.''
Thank you! I think, that I am the biggest Kleiber Fan in the world! The reason of his conducting is the Rhythm. You can beat "through" all the way of the first movement That makes the difference to all the others
As an armchair conductor (super amateur), I really appreciate your professional perspective. I had dreamed of conducting, using birthday money to buy a conducting manual and baton when I was in my early teens. Unfortunately, I am not inherently gifted, particularly in note reading. So, thanks again! ❤
@ahujeffrey I had to smile over this comment. " I had dreamed of conducting" Because i remembered a Manga/Anime where the Maincharacter dreams of being a famous conductor, but because he is afraid of flying, he can't travel to Europe (of course he is from Japan). -> Nodame Cantabile
I don't really know much about music. I knew nothing at all about it not that many years ago it seems like, other than that I liked it and appreciated more different types than most of my friends. finally taught myself to read shape notes, and that is about as far as I have got so far, but it is one of those things that the more you learn about it, the more interesting it becomes. anyway, I always thought of Beethoven's Fifth as being the most perfect piece of music I knew of. but it is cool to learn more about the technical details, I was always amazed at the complexity of classical music, it makes the music I am familiar with seem so basic and primitive. the whole idea that one could create such a complex and impressive tapestry of sounds, and convey it to other people, and record it so that people could still repeat it hundreds of years later is amazing. even the idea that one upon a time the only way one could hear this kind of thing at all was to assemble an entire orchestra of trained musicians and have them play it live for you is very appealing to me. people really don't appreciate what they have enough these days.
I Only Came to Beethoven in My Middle Twenties, when I Found an Unabridged Bernstein/New York Philharmonic Recording that Was Enchantingly Powerful and Beautiful!!!! Beethoven DEMANDS OUR ATTENTION!!!! No Wasted Notes; Every Note Has Meaning. The Message is the Hero’s Triumph Over Struggle!!!!
VERY well put!!! Nothing wasted in Beethoven...every note counts and feels inevitable...plus the ultimate pay off and satisfaction of his finales; which reveal the compelling Big Picture he had in mind from the start!!!...he is still the high water mark for all composers...period
I'm a horn player and have played Beethoven 5 loads and loads of times. Most conductors I have played for indicate the bar for the second fermata (pause). It gives me as an instrumentalist indication that it should feel different, and it does give this fermata a very different feel to play. If you know the difference, you can also detect it when you hear the symphony, although it's a subtle effect. I think the opening bars would be much less dramatic without the difference. Genius writing by Beethoven.
showing the bar before the 2nd fermata makes perfect sense to me...not conducting sound, conducting the SCORE; what Beethoven wrote, therefore what his thought process was. If he wrote the 2nd differently, you should "show" it 1st to yourself, then to the players. BTW, I was taught the count-in technique by my conducting teacher, who was not an academic, but was concertmaster for Szell and Ormandy, and played for Stokowsky (and has his Romeo+Juliet score).
When I count the Karajan one... the first fermata minim is virtually the same as 12 quavers in length. Then the second long note is exactly 16 quavers... so it is exactly longer than the first one by 4 quavers...and 4 quavers is the same length as a minim...Hence Karajan made the second long note EXACTLY one minim longer than the first...EXACTLY what Beethoven indicated in the score. I think your stop watch actually was paused too early when measuring the second long note.
Congratulations! As a listener who is new to these details, it was very important for me and other listeners to notice such striking details in an interpretation of a classical piece. Thanks. My perception was expanded in many ways.
Ben Zander (Boston Philharmonic) shared his interpretation of this about 2 years ago. I listened to his pre-concert talk about it. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Hi Anna! A few days ago I wrote you in an "extra" letter also about how special and fantastic it was for me as a "first violinst in the symhony" to play Beethoven's 5th with Carlos Kleiber - and now I see your great analysis about the different interpretations of it's entering. Among so many different times played it with many other conductors - i administer an oath to Kleiber, yes!
Nice analysis. As someone in the orchestra, I preferred conductors who communicated what they wanted by their movements above the metronome. Thank you for pointing out “extra” movements from Kleiber. Hopefully, others will follow.
Most interesting. Beethoven has always been my favorite classic composer (by far). My all-time favorite work is his 4th Piano Concerto. I find it very inspirational.
Thanks for this interesting discussion. There is another issue with the first 4 notes of the 5th: most orchestras play the 3 short notes as if they were a triplet, with the same accentuation on each note (the 'fate knocking at the door' effect). Whereas Beethoven wrote 3 quavers preceded by a silence on the first beat of the bar. The first quaver is thus 'upbeat' and should not be accented. In a way, we 'feel' a silent accent on the first beat (if that is possible). In this interpretation, the conductor's first gesture will show the silent beat, not the first played note. This approach is also more consistent with a true allegro tempo.
My dad was a conducting teacher, so I both enjoyed your talk, and, I have to admit, have heard them before around the dinner table. One point I didn't hear you mention is that there is a question as to whether Beethoven meant, with the notation of the second fermata, for it to be a fermata on a whole note, rather than what it literally is - to me it sounds like something Furtwängler did.
I wish to hear a hear a crescendo in the bar 2 and 4,5. It brings more energie into the opening. The most condutor dont do that. Thank you very much for the interesting analyse.
Thanks for your interesting analysis of this familiar but always intriguing work. The two recordings that I listen to most often: The 1937 Furtwangler Berlin (one of his best studio recordings). And the Klemperer Philharmonia (earlier mono) And yes I agree the Walter is quite interesting. Thanks again.
I too feel the same, very interesting for music listeners who won't know the technical details of notes and tempos. The presenter is very articulate. 👍
Ironically, Beethoven was complaining that conductors and musicians were already 'abusing' his recommend bpm while he was alive. He was continually complaining - "Why are you playing it so slow? That is not what I composed!"
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 Two notable sources I would recommend - (1) Watch "Benjamin Zander Pre-Concert Talk: Beethoven Symphony No. 5" and watch the first two minutes of the video. (2) Watch "BBC Documentary - The Secret of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony" and start watching at the 6 minute mark.
I heard ,many convincing Fifths, but the one that sticks in my mind is Toscanini's 1931 version that I first heard right here on TH-cam. I had never really made any sense of the second movement, but that one made me understand it. Which is quite a nice feeling when you have had thirty years or more to understand a piece and still you hadn't got there. Your explanations are very interesting, and I'll be back. Thank you.
It is very very good. One thing I respect about Kleiber is that he limits himself to a very small repertoire but he did them extremely well. If you like his recording check out Szell's with the same VPO on Orfeo just another unbelievable performance that seems less mechanical, more airy, and more vertical approach to the music than Kleiber's. th-cam.com/video/tvOREC-5gHE/w-d-xo.html
@@Olorin-wp9it Music is not an objective art, if that isn't something you understood so far. I reasonated my subjective favourite recording on my subjective thoughts about how it should be interpreted, there is not the slightest wish of objectification in there.
Very nice and to the point. i'm very curious to what you have to say about the opening of Beethoven's ninth symphony. Had the good luck to see a local performance of that, long ago. The conductor literally took a rather high vertical jump, while coming down the first two notes were played, and after landing the second two notes. Spectacular.
In my conducting class as a student we studied this a bit. We asked the professor (an excellent conductor himself) about conducting that tied half note and he said absolutely we should. It’s written there, so show it. Obviously many pros do not, but I never forgot that lesson and it always makes me think about the interpretative process at different levels of performance.
La 5ème de Beethoven et la 5ème de Mahler commencent par la même cellule rythmique. Hommage de l’élève (Mahler) à son Maître. La numérotation des symphonies de Mahler saute le numéro 9, toujours en hommage au Maître ❤❤❤
I knew from the title that I was going to like it. I love anything Beethoven related. And the Fifth Symphony, well, I can't say it's my favorite Beethoven piece, because I don't have a single favorite Beethoven piece. But I can say that it's my favorite Beethoven symphony. It's the piece with which I really started to appreciate Beethoven's craftsmanship as I transcribed it note by note into Musescore. And it's one piece for which my opinion changed completely in the space of just a few years. When I was around 9 years old or so, I didn't really care for Beethoven's Fifth, or really anything by Beethoven to be honest. I only heard a few pieces, but even so, I just could not appreciate what Beethoven was doing the same way I could appreciate say a Mozart string quartet. A few years later, I was a teenager, and I developed a bias towards minor key pieces and towards having more drama in the music. Suddenly, Symphony no. 40 by Mozart wasn't enough to satisfy my drama want, I was going to have to look for another composer. Well then, here comes Beethoven, I searched "C minor piano concerto", found Beethoven's concerto, and listened to it. I was totally blown away by how much drama there was. Soon, I was craving for more Beethoven in hopes of hearing more of that same drama, and well, I did. Just in the space of 4 years or so, I went from not caring for Beethoven at all, to not enjoying his music, but being able to appreciate what's going on, to enjoying his music more than that of anybody else, including Mozart. And with Beethoven's Fifth in particular, it went from being my least favorite symphony, even below the symphonies of Haydn, to being my absolute favorite symphony. My favorite conductor for Beethoven's Fifth is Karayan, and my second favorite is Kleiber.
I Agree. Karajan and Kleiber for me as well. With Karajan it is a trait of his to keep his multiple accounts of the same work pretty consistent with just minor differences. I also put Klemperer Philharmonia up there to for his slower yet more monumental approach. Beethoven's Fifth can take a variety of approaches as can most pieces of music.
My all-time favorite was an RCA vinyl recording I had in the early 1960s with Serge Koussevitzky conducting. As a career performer on the double bass viol I played this symphony many times.
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Well done, clearly explained, very useful for conductors or simple listeners! Thanks. And most of all, true! Sound changes inside our minds if the seconda fermata is shown. Kleiber is right, as he usually is...
I am 59 years old, and I love the 5th since young ages. Altough the Carlos Kleiber's version is considered an unaminity, for me, the Wand's version is slighty superior. And, after your video, I run to listen both version to see how they handle the fermatas. Thanks to show new details to appreciate this music we all love for so long.
Interestingly, as radically different as those interpretations are, they all kinda work for me. The most radical interpretation I ever heard played the second pair of opening bars at half the speed of the first, then paused until it almost became unpleasant, before launching into a furious allegro for the rest of the introduction. I found it deeply emotional and extremely refreshing.
It's my understanding that when Boulez made that recording, he'd been spending a lot of time in discussions with Otto Klemperer. It shows. Gunther Schuller spent several pages on these opening bars in his book "The Compleat Conductor." One thing that neither he nor you address is the practice of playing the opening bars at a much slower tempo than the rest of the movement. The current HIP crowd doesn't do it that way, but it was common in the old days. Even Toscanini plays the opening slightly slower than the remainder of the movement. Also, there's the common practice of inserting an unmarked pause between the two opening gestures, and then between the opening and the remainder of the movement.
Tempo, andamento, acentos, articulações, dinâmica, textura. Como cada maestro trata isso é minha permanente curiosidade e prazer da escuta. Estou apreciando com prazer seus comentários, comparações, exemplos.
i loved this discussion. everything was communicated in a precise and lively way and nothing got in the way of the message. i know very little about conducting or musical interpretation but as i read it the half note linked to the 2d fermata means to hold the 2d fermata exactly one half note longer than the 1st fermata. also thought bruno walter's interpretation was extraordinary, introducing a kind of metrical madness as a literary foreshadowing of what we're in for in
Hello Anna Thank you for the video. And the memories sixty years ago as a child discovering music and "acting" as a conductor. By the age of 10 I knew I wanted to be a conductor or an architect. Sixty years on I'm an architect but with a conductor inside still trying to get out. I salut you as a fellow professional of the arts.
For several years my favorite 5th symphony recording was Karajan's 1962 cycle. But I wasn´t the only one I listen, I have Toscanini, Walter, Szell. Actually my favorite 5th is Stokowski last recording of the work with the London Philharmonic made in 1968. Now it looks like is quite easy to solve the beginning but I believe that is quite tricky. I don´t know if is true, but once I read that Walter used to say to his musicians "you can start to playing when the batoon is in front of the penultime button of my suit". I told that to a retired conductor that used to live here in Uruguay, now sadly he passed away, and he told me that it make sense, since Walter was establishing an space reference for the musicians about how the tempo is gonna be beated. Thank you for your videos, every single I watch makes me like most the channel.
Great discussion! Thanks. It’s probably fair to say that, as the music of the Romantic Period became more and more melodramatic, after Beethoven’s time, people came up with excuses to perform Beethoven’s works (especially orchestral) more grandiosely than Beethoven actually intended. “Certainly his metronome must have been bad, right?!” Hey, Beethoven (essentially) invented the scherzo movement, and more or less ended his career with the _Ode to _*_Joy_* ! He probably intended a bit more spontaneity and whimsy, and just plain fun, that many give him credit for.
Sometimes directors go faster than the "competition," sometimes slower. I'd love to listen every note as a word in a poem. That's my taste: you cannot jump over any note without losing the beads of the composition. I heard Bernstein once directing Rimsky Korsakov's Spanish Capriccio. I thought he was really in a hurry. But then, years later, I heard him directing Beethoven's 7th symphony, and it was wonderful. It was as if he had whispered it in our ears, specially the Allegretto. So it's true, as Anna says, that the spirit decides. It happens with me, all the time.
the one thing to consider in addition to everything you mentioned is that they may have been using different scores from different editors. it occurs to me that some scores may not have the slurred half notes at all. we know now that bad editions are available but 30, 40, 50 years ago they may not have been so aware.
The first 4 notes are meant to “”Grab your attention “, which it does. The second four notes set the mood. Pain, sorrow, remorse etc. At least that’s how I hear it. Much like the 2nd movement of his 7th symphony. The first note once again grabs your attention, then the mood is set with the “ppp” volume.Hard to hear the music much like it was for him at that point in his life. Anyway, Love the video and Thank You!
I only came across your site here last night and this video really gladdened my heart. About 50 years ago there was a programme on BBC 3 (UK) about this very subject, but did not note down which conductor used which tempo. Fate knocking at the door was a much used expression. Roughly four years later (I was 30) I was in a conducting class and the others before me took it at quite lick. My turn and I mentioned that I was going take note of the expression Fate knocking at the door and considered that if it was true then Fate would not be a doing fast ratatataaa on the door but would be more steady and determined. Any way I took it steadier and the conducting professor was not amused, compounded because I could not cite an example that backed me up. I was similar to Boulez´s tempo (not sure when that was dated from, but my effort was in early 1979). I know that I compounded my "error" by introducing an accelerando just after the motif. I now need to work my way through the rest of your videos. Very enjoyable.
This is the first of your videos that I've seen and I'm impressed. I've subscribed. Beethoven's fifth is a workhorse that it is all too easy to take for granted. I've heard dozens of recordings, both live and studio, which is true of most classical musical lovers. JE Gardiner is my favourite, mostly because of the beauty and energy he brings. Bruno Walter is the only set that I bought that I got rid of. I really couldn't stand it. It was so sluggish. Having said that, the Boulez version you played the intro of was more than enough to mean that I never want to hear any Beethoven conducted by him.
Well done, Anna. Of course this is another piece that we musicians have played many times over our careers, and have seen many conductors. I want to say the Boulez is too slow, but, especially for the first 4 bars, this rhythmic motive could be slower (than elsewhere) in these statements just for emphasis. It'd help new listeners remember this "struggle with fate" that continues deep into the 3rd and 4th movements...
Thank you. Fascinating!! I remember when Gardiner released the Beethoven Symphonies played at what he considered the correct (faster) tempi and with instruments made in the style of the time. Blew me away!!
This was indeed interesting. Like I wrote in another comment on another of your videos explaining this, I'm in awe that I am kiiiiind of sort of really being able to understand what you mean. And showing the example twice that you are talking about helps a lot with understanding it more.
I love this video. I don't have any one fav recording but I like Karajan (that was the first one I've even heard cuz I had a CD) and Harnoncourt (it's very... defined? I'm not sure how to say it, his interpretation is clearly segmented, and put into small parts, something like when you play baroque and you strictly keep this metric-accent/bar/phrase distinction - I like it)
When it comes to Beethoven there is only two conductors who can do him justice, Arturo Toscanini and Herbert von Karajan. I always look to see how the scherzo is played. I remember hearing Zubin Meta conduction the orchestras of the Israeli Symphony and New York Symphony playing Beethoven's 5th symphony. Imagine 16 bases playing that line together, what power, what sound, and what clarity I heard. When I took my wife the the Denver Symphony Orchestra's concert of Beethoven's 5th under the direction of Marin Alsop we were both horrified as that scherzo became a muddled and unclear mess. Alsop is good when she has to stick to the script in accompanying soloists, but she cannot be trusted to turn in a decent performance anytime else. That same orchestra under different guest conductors performed beautifully and you could tell by the individual musician's facial expressions and body movement they really appreciated someone else on the podium.
Karajan's version ticks the boxes. I don't care if Walter was Mahler's student, his interpretation was SHAMELESSLY SELF- INDULGENT. To bad you didn't include Bernstein's take which wasn't bad.
@@williamsilva5295 I first heard Beethoven's 5th over Armed Forces Radio in 1967 in SE Asia. The conductor was Arturo Toscanini and I still remember that experience . Herbert von Karajan and Zubin Meta directed the best, at least in my mind, performances of that work. Meta led the combined NY symphony and the Israeli symphony for an outstanding experience. Imagine 16 double bases in the schritzo, wish I could have been there in person. Blomstedt has the bad habit of injecting himself into the performance and he lacks smoothness. His style says "look at me" with the sudden shifts in emphasis, too loud one moment, too soft the next. Beauty should, including music, do two things. The first is attract our emotional attention and the second is attract our intellectual attention. There needs to be a balance of the two and Blomstedt just doesn't get it.
My favorite Beethoven symphony #5 recording is actually on TH-cam. It’s conducted by a young Franz Welzer-Most. It’s got to be from the 90’s. I think it’s the London symphony orchestra. I love it because it’s so energized! And about three quarters of the way through it FWM realizes this is good and it’s happening and he let’s go and has fun. I love it.
This is very true. I had an ear training teacher in college who beat this into us incessantly and it bore fruit. I am an organist and my teachers likewise were fastidious in this regard. I also wish to mention when one has a 2 against 3 (duple and triple) rhythm at the same time. Very challenging for a beginning musician or ensemble. One tends to have the second of the duple land on the last note of the triple - yet another challenge. To illustrate this, go to the exposition in the first movement of Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony (No.6) where Beethoven has duple rhythm in the violins and triple in the basses.
Hi Anna, Very interesting topic and thank you so much for your explanation. It is a great job especially adding the video and point out some "small action" , it is great help for "layman" like me......😅😅😅
What observations could you please point out about Barenboin's conducting? I liked the way you approached and explained the matter. I Do remember having heard different LP recordings of that symphony and tempos weren't quite the same, depending on the conductor & orchestra. I DO appreciate your comment. Cheers 🤙🏻👍🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 🇦🇷🤗
Benjamin Zander also talked about this very subject. He is one of the rare teachers and contractors in detail analysis of music. Also don't forget the great Günther Wand
Dima Slobodeniouk nails it as far as i'm concerned. Even though I've heard this piece so many times Dimas interpretation is the one I find most pleasing.
Exceptional video: passion, intellect, and cogent diction married to produce insights galore. Favorite Beethovan 5th recording? Christoph von Dohnányi's with the Cleveland Orchestra (with, of course, credit to George Szell whose imprint on the ensemble can still be heard today).
Cool video! If you can get a video of Klaus Tennstedt conducting the 5th, I saw him live in London many years ago, and I always though his approach was rather unique!
In a way, my favorite is Karajan "2", recorded 1961-1962. I call it my favorite because it was the first that I purchased, on vinyl in the 1980s. I haven't heard it in a long time. I still have the media, but no way to play it. Edit: Found it here on TH-cam: th-cam.com/video/6cbFlkRu54I/w-d-xo.html
I absolutely love what you are doing! This is very energising! I listen to the same composition performed by different conductors to hear their interpretation of what the composer wrote!😊
It was very interesting for me that you spoke so precisely about Kleiber. There are wonderful footage on TH-cam of his rehearsals with the Bavarian State Orchestra for Fledermaus. (Just enter kleiber Fledermaus rehearsal) It was so interesting how he was able to convince this conservative, uninspired orchestra of his ideas with a lot of biting humor. I am German and so I understood everything he said immediately. He sang and acted the scenes like a stand-up comedian. But the result was probably the most interesting recording of Die Fledermaus to date.
I hope that makes it clear to you. As for me, I now know no more than when I started.. Watching it again would make no difference; however, I still like it as much as the first time I heard it. I liked it without anyone telling me what to listen for. Imagine that
![ปฏิเสธไม่ไหว (Crush on you) - LIPTA feat. No One Else [TEASER MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VC689EgdSIw/mqdefault.jpg)
In 3:55 I use the word "slurred" when I actually mean "tied". Sadly those two words are almost identical in Spanish and brain went no good speak bad. I think what I meant is still clear but just in case ;)
Thanks for explaining that -- before I left a critical comment! Thanks for this video.
Holy cow. Been a musician for 60 years (including 10 years in a major symphony orchestra) and never knew of this distinction! Not that I would have played anything differently....
@@TheConsarnedCitizenInteresting! I wish I could say I had your background! I went to college for music many moons ago but never did anything with that degree. I came to the comments specifically for this reason. They look the same but a slur connects two or more different notes and a tie connects two or more of the same note (usually one tie connecting only two notes and additional ties if more than two notes tied together). Very cool video and crazy to see the vast variations in interpretations!
❤️♥️❤️!
"...brain went no good speak bad."
Even though I'm a native English speaker, I am SO stealing that phrasing for the next time what my brain sends to my mouth doesn't match the idea I had.
Hello Anna, I am a Classical Music Presenter on FM Radio in Melbourne Australia. You are outstanding as a teacher too. I have had 60 years in Classical Music and you are one of the best voices I have heard with great authority and clarity of understanding. Thank you ROBERT
You wrote a book about Kleiber?? What’s it called??
@@katrinat.3032 Who wrote a book? Also who is Robert?
@@adrianjanssens7116 He is an influencer in Melbourn.
Not sure why TH-cam suggested this 2 year old video to me, but I truly enjoyed it. 😊
Same here ...
And here
ditto !
I can confirm.
Hi, i am not alone :D But i need to add we are talking about classical music, what is 2 years compare to this? xD And good content is more important, then "fresh" content.
I appreciated your careful observation of the 'extra' bar that Kleiber shows, tied to the second fermata. That precision was actually quite common to his work. He had a reputation as a supremely charismatic and inventive-rhapsodic conductor, and it was earned. BUT: the depth and concision of his score study was extraordinary. His players were aware of this, at all times. He marked his parts fastidiously, and additionally left his players little Kleibergrams with further detailed instructions, plus flattery and jokes.
They always knew what he wanted, and why. When he would occasionally stop conducting altogether -- mid-performance -- he could pay his players no higher compliment. CK had the gift of showing everything, and nothing, as required. This is indeed most unusual, and helps account for his unique reputation. Michael Walsh of TIME Magazine, on hearing Kleiber's recording of the Fifth with Vienna, realized what Kleiber had achieved: "It was as if Homer had come back to recite the Iliad." Indeed.
Very well put! Thanks 👍
What he did adds clarity. Beethoven wrote it the way he did for good reason, and Kleiber is showing it to the orchestra explicitly. I can’t think of a conductor who respected the score more than Kleiber. And that includes Toscanini, who said one thing and did another, e.g., Bolero, En Saga.
I loved your book about Kleiber. He left us too soon.
It's a paradox, eh? CK was concise and precise as required by the scores he knew so well. This acquitted him the freedom he needed in order to explore as imaginatively as his fabulous ear and technique permitted. He had it both ways, and this is rarity.
YES re Toscanini. In my early education he was a god of authenticity. One day, my teacher gave me a recording of his Brahms 1, iv, an urtext of same, and an assignment: come back with a report on the differences. Good Lord. I had no idea.
I'm glad you enjoyed the book. Thank you. It will be 20 years this July... You would have liked him. He really was as witty as advertised.
@@donaldallen1771
Yes! Well said.
I’m 76 and when I was about 14 (?), Beethoven’s 5th was probably the my first introduction to orchestral music.
All of a sudden, the musical universe was revealed.
I LOVED THIS SYMPHONY.
And, of course I still do.
I have perhaps 7 or 8 versions by various conductors. The Kleiber is my favourite, so I’m pleased Anna’s discussion used his example….. 11:31
Wonderfully done and entirely insightful. Who doesn’t love the 5th?
I've always been fascinated as I listen to the varied openings of this symphony (for 70 years now!) --- your discussion is right on the mark and appropriately gracious, and extremely interesting!
My name is Ina and I'm a 76-yo classical music lover who started swimming laps in my late 60's; I met the challenge of remembering which lap I'm up to at any given time by playing a theme in my head from some favorite piece associated with that particular number; e.g., Bach's Brandenburg #1 for Lap-1, 2nd movement of Beethoven's 2nd symphony for Lap-2, etc. Naturally, lap 5 would be the opening of Beethoven's 5th, but until I saw this wonderful presentation I ultimately got somewhat bored with that -- it felt so "war-horsey", if you get my drift, to the extent that for awhile I switched to The Trout which as a quintet was a reasonable proxy for "Number-5". But your education here about "the second time around" fremata made that opening so amazingly interesting that now I'm back to my old fave, making sure to pay attention to that longer pause and relishing in it. Now I'm sure you didn't make this video to help septuagenarians keep in shape, but I gotta tell you I never stop my swim-workout before Lap #5 because I don't want to miss that long-pause ... So, Thanks!
I liked the video just from the title, anything with Beethoven in it is paradise for me :) Then I watched the video and I now wish there was a double like button! I'm loving your videos of this format, explaining the music's technical side in a way that someone like me, who can't even read notes, let alone more details about how to interpret them, can understand... Thanks for these videos and keep up the good work!
Thank you so much for this comment and for watching :)
I share your love for anything Beethoven too!!!...plus this channel
I am also a Beethovenophile. I just found this channel and it’s interesting so far
Although there is no double like button, you can express your feelings by triple liking. Or, if you want to go above and beyond, do a quintuple like.
Just make sure to use an odd number of likes and not an even one.
😀
@@1zaj34 Sounds like you don't like marches and are a big fan of waltzes 😄
Insanely edge trivia here, but morse code uses dit-dit-dit-dah for V is because of Beethoven's V symphony. Which comes around to the movie The Longest Day using Beethoven's Fifth because "V-for-Victory" is shown by three short flashes followed by a long one.
I love classical music trivia like that!!
Erm... people have forgotten this now‽😂
😂
@@kamalhashmi9851 It was only a couple of years ago that I found out that ..._ for V was a tribute to Beethoven. I didn't realize that the time gap was long enough: 1808 (Beethoven's 5th) to 1840 (Morse Code gets letters).
@@markeddy9169 Sigh. Unfortunately it isn't - the choice of '...-' for V was made totally independently. It was approx as common a letter as B which was chosen to be '---.' In Morse (the very common letters like E have shorter codes and the rare letters like X longer codes). Nothing to do with Beethoven. Also, symphonies (& quartets, concertos etc) are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4 etc not I, II, II, IV, etc - no-one writes it as Beethoven's Symphony V. During the Second World War: "it became the BBC European Service's call sign and interval sign. Across Occupied Europe people hummed and whistled the tune, and in Britain the V made its way onto badges and other items. Prime Minister Churchill made the sign his trademark." The 'V' actually started in Belgium! See www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0gbz0y1 (you may need a VPN from overseas. Shhh, I never told you)
As an orchestra principal player, I find your videos quite interesting, thank you! Many times when doing Beethoven's 5th the first rehearsal ends up taking a considerable amount of time to get the 1st movement opening right. Frequently the cut-off for the 2nd fermata will be(or in my mind, should be)the down beat to the next bar, and the orchestra will commonly hesitate coming in, and that's where the problems of ensemble happen. I have to say I LOVE Kleiber's Vienna Philharmonic 5th recording very much....but as far as I'm concerned Kleiber can do no wrong in my mind.
I think the purpose of starting in a silence is to not stress the first note, so it's dadadaDA otherwise would be DAdadaDA. Beethoven manages to start the gesture always that way thru de movement. The other thing I heard is that a slur implied a diminuendo, a tapering on volume according to 19th practice. Some conductos do that on "period" performances.
Hi Anna, here’s another Classical Music Presenter on FM radio in Australia, this time in Brisbane. I agree with my colleague in Melbourne. Your explanations are lucid and informative. The Kléber was especially fascinating. As someone who’s played in orchestras, I appreciate his signalling the tempo before the downbeat and giving that gesture at the connection-point between the two tied notes that keeps the tempo going for the musicians. Thank you for what you’re offering and I hope a lot of people get to learn from your videos.
Good explanation.
Thanks!!!
For me, Karajan is at the top
What an amazing video! ^^
I think Beethoven's fifth symphony is SO famous that most conductors prefer to push themselves into new interpretations, so that there aren't too similar versions. "Everyone knows this, so i will be a little bit different".
Thank you! It’s true that it’s probably quite challenging to approach such a popular piece!
Anna, not only am I a musician -- I'm an opera singer - but I'm an aspiring conductor. I'd LOVE if possible to discuss with you composers, conductors, compositions, technique, inspiration, etc. I have several ''favorite'' interpretations of Beethoven 5. Overall, nowadays I gravitate toward Karajan's interpretation from the early 1980s. However, Szell's interpretation from the early-mid 1960s with the Concertgebouw is thrilling and brilliant as well. The ''best'' interpretation of the ''Scherzo: Allegro'' (3rd Movement) is from a mono, 1953 recording of the Concertgebouw under Erich Kleiber. Incidentally, I have written a film short that's directly inspired by this Symphony. It's entitled, ''Beethoven's Fifth; OR: A Design For Living.''
Fascinating and entertaining analysis! I had no idea so much is packed into those few opening bars.
Thank you! I think, that I am the biggest Kleiber Fan in the world!
The reason of his conducting is the Rhythm. You can beat "through" all the way of the first movement
That makes the difference to all the others
As an armchair conductor (super amateur), I really appreciate your professional perspective. I had dreamed of conducting, using birthday money to buy a conducting manual and baton when I was in my early teens. Unfortunately, I am not inherently gifted, particularly in note reading. So, thanks again! ❤
@ahujeffrey
I had to smile over this comment. " I had dreamed of conducting"
Because i remembered a Manga/Anime where the Maincharacter dreams of being a famous conductor, but because he is afraid of flying, he can't travel to Europe (of course he is from Japan). -> Nodame Cantabile
Am I alone in absolutely loving her hair?
No, you are not. And smart is the new sexy
I don't really know much about music. I knew nothing at all about it not that many years ago it seems like, other than that I liked it and appreciated more different types than most of my friends. finally taught myself to read shape notes, and that is about as far as I have got so far, but it is one of those things that the more you learn about it, the more interesting it becomes. anyway, I always thought of Beethoven's Fifth as being the most perfect piece of music I knew of. but it is cool to learn more about the technical details, I was always amazed at the complexity of classical music, it makes the music I am familiar with seem so basic and primitive. the whole idea that one could create such a complex and impressive tapestry of sounds, and convey it to other people, and record it so that people could still repeat it hundreds of years later is amazing. even the idea that one upon a time the only way one could hear this kind of thing at all was to assemble an entire orchestra of trained musicians and have them play it live for you is very appealing to me. people really don't appreciate what they have enough these days.
I would love to see you analyze other Beethoven Symphonies as well. In particular, Symphonies 3, 6, 7, and 9.
This was so interesting! As a violinist and devotee of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, your analysis gave me a new insight into my favorite composer.
I Only Came to Beethoven in My Middle Twenties, when I Found an Unabridged Bernstein/New York Philharmonic Recording that Was Enchantingly Powerful and Beautiful!!!!
Beethoven DEMANDS OUR ATTENTION!!!! No Wasted Notes; Every Note Has Meaning. The Message is the Hero’s Triumph Over Struggle!!!!
VERY well put!!! Nothing wasted in Beethoven...every note counts and feels inevitable...plus the ultimate pay off and satisfaction of his finales; which reveal the compelling Big Picture he had in mind from the start!!!...he is still the high water mark for all composers...period
I'm a horn player and have played Beethoven 5 loads and loads of times. Most conductors I have played for indicate the bar for the second fermata (pause). It gives me as an instrumentalist indication that it should feel different, and it does give this fermata a very different feel to play. If you know the difference, you can also detect it when you hear the symphony, although it's a subtle effect. I think the opening bars would be much less dramatic without the difference. Genius writing by Beethoven.
showing the bar before the 2nd fermata makes perfect sense to me...not conducting sound, conducting the SCORE; what Beethoven wrote, therefore what his thought process was. If he wrote the 2nd differently, you should "show" it 1st to yourself, then to the players.
BTW, I was taught the count-in technique by my conducting teacher, who was not an academic, but was concertmaster for Szell and Ormandy, and played for Stokowsky (and has his Romeo+Juliet score).
When I count the Karajan one... the first fermata minim is virtually the same as 12 quavers in length. Then the second long note is exactly 16 quavers... so it is exactly longer than the first one by 4 quavers...and 4 quavers is the same length as a minim...Hence Karajan made the second long note EXACTLY one minim longer than the first...EXACTLY what Beethoven indicated in the score. I think your stop watch actually was paused too early when measuring the second long note.
Checks out with Karajan's craziness and his germannness hahahaha. Nice observation
Thanks for the examples! I'm an "old school" (born in 1953) rocker and never understood what a conductor did! 😘
Congratulations! As a listener who is new to these details, it was very important for me and other listeners to notice such striking details in an interpretation of a classical piece. Thanks. My perception was expanded in many ways.
Ben Zander (Boston Philharmonic) shared his interpretation of this about 2 years ago. I listened to his pre-concert talk about it. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Hi Anna! A few days ago I wrote you in an "extra" letter also about how special and fantastic it was for me as a "first violinst in the symhony" to play Beethoven's 5th with Carlos Kleiber - and now I see your great analysis about the different interpretations of it's entering. Among so many different times played it with many other conductors - i administer an oath to Kleiber, yes!
Nice analysis. As someone in the orchestra, I preferred conductors who communicated what they wanted by their movements above the metronome. Thank you for pointing out “extra” movements from Kleiber. Hopefully, others will follow.
Most interesting. Beethoven has always been my favorite classic composer (by far). My all-time favorite work is his 4th Piano Concerto. I find it very inspirational.
The subtle piano introduction is just perfect.
Thanks for this interesting discussion.
There is another issue with the first 4 notes of the 5th: most orchestras play the 3 short notes as if they were a triplet, with the same accentuation on each note (the 'fate knocking at the door' effect). Whereas Beethoven wrote 3 quavers preceded by a silence on the first beat of the bar. The first quaver is thus 'upbeat' and should not be accented. In a way, we 'feel' a silent accent on the first beat (if that is possible). In this interpretation, the conductor's first gesture will show the silent beat, not the first played note. This approach is also more consistent with a true allegro tempo.
PBS once showed a live performance of the 5th by the NY Philharmonic led by Kurt Masur that was the best I ever heard.
Loved this, and your layering in context (eg. Mahler’s student) as well. I appreciate your work very much. Thanks!
thank you for watching!
My dad was a conducting teacher, so I both enjoyed your talk, and, I have to admit, have heard them before around the dinner table. One point I didn't hear you mention is that there is a question as to whether Beethoven meant, with the notation of the second fermata, for it to be a fermata on a whole note, rather than what it literally is - to me it sounds like something Furtwängler did.
I wish to hear a hear a crescendo in the bar 2 and 4,5. It brings more energie into the opening. The most condutor dont do that. Thank you very much for the interesting analyse.
Thanks for your interesting analysis of this familiar but always intriguing work. The two recordings that I listen to most often: The 1937 Furtwangler Berlin (one of his best studio recordings). And the Klemperer Philharmonia (earlier mono) And yes I agree the Walter is quite interesting. Thanks again.
I found your discussion and demonstrations very interesting as one who is not a musician but listens to a lot of recordings.
I too feel the same, very interesting for music listeners who won't know the technical details of notes and tempos. The presenter is very articulate. 👍
It's interesting to see the thought process behind conducting
Ironically, Beethoven was complaining that conductors and musicians were already 'abusing' his recommend bpm while he was alive. He was continually complaining - "Why are you playing it so slow? That is not what I composed!"
carlrosa, please tell me the source!
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 Two notable sources I would recommend - (1) Watch "Benjamin Zander Pre-Concert Talk: Beethoven Symphony No. 5" and watch the first two minutes of the video. (2) Watch "BBC Documentary - The Secret of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony" and start watching at the 6 minute mark.
I heard ,many convincing Fifths, but the one that sticks in my mind is Toscanini's 1931 version that I first heard right here on TH-cam. I had never really made any sense of the second movement, but that one made me understand it. Which is quite a nice feeling when you have had thirty years or more to understand a piece and still you hadn't got there. Your explanations are very interesting, and I'll be back. Thank you.
As a classical music TH-camr and conducting student, good job💪🏻
Not to be forgotten: New Horizons in Music Appreciation: Beethoven's Fifth Symphony by Peter Schickele (PDQ Bach)
Kleiber feels the most natural for me, nothing reaches his interpretation. The breaks are exactly as long as my nerves can stand it, unbelievable.
Definitely my favourite as well!
It is very very good. One thing I respect about Kleiber is that he limits himself to a very small repertoire but he did them extremely well.
If you like his recording check out Szell's with the same VPO on Orfeo just another unbelievable performance that seems less mechanical, more airy, and more vertical approach to the music than Kleiber's.
th-cam.com/video/tvOREC-5gHE/w-d-xo.html
Your nerves are not an objective metric of anything.
@@Olorin-wp9it Music is not an objective art, if that isn't something you understood so far. I reasonated my subjective favourite recording on my subjective thoughts about how it should be interpreted, there is not the slightest wish of objectification in there.
@@Olorin-wp9ityou just sound grumpy. He just shows his admiration for Kleiber and what it does.
Very nice and to the point.
i'm very curious to what you have to say about the opening of Beethoven's ninth symphony. Had the good luck to see a local performance of that, long ago. The conductor literally took a rather high vertical jump, while coming down the first two notes were played, and after landing the second two notes. Spectacular.
In my conducting class as a student we studied this a bit. We asked the professor (an excellent conductor himself) about conducting that tied half note and he said absolutely we should. It’s written there, so show it.
Obviously many pros do not, but I never forgot that lesson and it always makes me think about the interpretative process at different levels of performance.
La 5ème de Beethoven et la 5ème de Mahler commencent par la même cellule rythmique. Hommage de l’élève (Mahler) à son Maître. La numérotation des symphonies de Mahler saute le numéro 9, toujours en hommage au Maître ❤❤❤
I knew from the title that I was going to like it. I love anything Beethoven related. And the Fifth Symphony, well, I can't say it's my favorite Beethoven piece, because I don't have a single favorite Beethoven piece. But I can say that it's my favorite Beethoven symphony. It's the piece with which I really started to appreciate Beethoven's craftsmanship as I transcribed it note by note into Musescore.
And it's one piece for which my opinion changed completely in the space of just a few years. When I was around 9 years old or so, I didn't really care for Beethoven's Fifth, or really anything by Beethoven to be honest. I only heard a few pieces, but even so, I just could not appreciate what Beethoven was doing the same way I could appreciate say a Mozart string quartet. A few years later, I was a teenager, and I developed a bias towards minor key pieces and towards having more drama in the music.
Suddenly, Symphony no. 40 by Mozart wasn't enough to satisfy my drama want, I was going to have to look for another composer. Well then, here comes Beethoven, I searched "C minor piano concerto", found Beethoven's concerto, and listened to it. I was totally blown away by how much drama there was. Soon, I was craving for more Beethoven in hopes of hearing more of that same drama, and well, I did. Just in the space of 4 years or so, I went from not caring for Beethoven at all, to not enjoying his music, but being able to appreciate what's going on, to enjoying his music more than that of anybody else, including Mozart.
And with Beethoven's Fifth in particular, it went from being my least favorite symphony, even below the symphonies of Haydn, to being my absolute favorite symphony. My favorite conductor for Beethoven's Fifth is Karayan, and my second favorite is Kleiber.
I Agree. Karajan and Kleiber for me as well. With Karajan it is a trait of his to keep his multiple accounts of the same work pretty consistent with just minor differences. I also put Klemperer Philharmonia up there to for his slower yet more monumental approach. Beethoven's Fifth can take a variety of approaches as can most pieces of music.
My all-time favorite was an RCA vinyl recording I had in the early 1960s with Serge Koussevitzky conducting. As a career performer on the double bass viol I played this symphony many times.
Well done, clearly explained, very useful for conductors or simple listeners! Thanks. And most of all, true! Sound changes inside our minds if the seconda fermata is shown. Kleiber is right, as he usually is...
I am 59 years old, and I love the 5th since young ages. Altough the Carlos Kleiber's version is considered an unaminity, for me, the Wand's version is slighty superior. And, after your video, I run to listen both version to see how they handle the fermatas. Thanks to show new details to appreciate this music we all love for so long.
Interestingly, as radically different as those interpretations are, they all kinda work for me. The most radical interpretation I ever heard played the second pair of opening bars at half the speed of the first, then paused until it almost became unpleasant, before launching into a furious allegro for the rest of the introduction. I found it deeply emotional and extremely refreshing.
Thank you for this delightful explanation. I share these very notes as saying, "Hey, this is important. (fermata) HEY! REALLY IMPORTANT!"
It's my understanding that when Boulez made that recording, he'd been spending a lot of time in discussions with Otto Klemperer. It shows. Gunther Schuller spent several pages on these opening bars in his book "The Compleat Conductor." One thing that neither he nor you address is the practice of playing the opening bars at a much slower tempo than the rest of the movement. The current HIP crowd doesn't do it that way, but it was common in the old days. Even Toscanini plays the opening slightly slower than the remainder of the movement. Also, there's the common practice of inserting an unmarked pause between the two opening gestures, and then between the opening and the remainder of the movement.
Tempo, andamento, acentos, articulações, dinâmica, textura. Como cada maestro trata isso é minha permanente curiosidade e prazer da escuta. Estou apreciando com prazer seus comentários, comparações, exemplos.
i loved this discussion. everything was communicated in a precise and lively way and nothing got in the way of the message. i know very little about conducting or musical interpretation but as i read it the half note linked to the 2d fermata means to hold the 2d fermata exactly one half note longer than the 1st fermata. also thought bruno walter's interpretation was extraordinary, introducing a kind of metrical madness as a literary foreshadowing of what we're in for in
Hello Anna
Thank you for the video. And the memories sixty years ago as a child discovering music and "acting" as a conductor. By the age of 10 I knew I wanted to be a conductor or an architect. Sixty years on I'm an architect but with a conductor inside still trying to get out. I salut you as a fellow professional of the arts.
How wonderful! It seems to me that the silence immediately after the long note is part of the system as well.
I'm only 5 minutes into the video. This is actually an eye-opening explanation of the role of a conductor.
Love these micro lectures about whatever concerning music. Very nicely explained and commented Anna. Wish there were more.
For several years my favorite 5th symphony recording was Karajan's 1962 cycle. But I wasn´t the only one I listen, I have Toscanini, Walter, Szell. Actually my favorite 5th is Stokowski last recording of the work with the London Philharmonic made in 1968.
Now it looks like is quite easy to solve the beginning but I believe that is quite tricky.
I don´t know if is true, but once I read that Walter used to say to his musicians "you can start to playing when the batoon is in front of the penultime button of my suit".
I told that to a retired conductor that used to live here in Uruguay, now sadly he passed away, and he told me that it make sense, since Walter was establishing an space reference for the musicians about how the tempo is gonna be beated.
Thank you for your videos, every single I watch makes me like most the channel.
thank you for watching and for your thoughtful and interesting comments!
Great discussion! Thanks.
It’s probably fair to say that, as the music of the Romantic Period became more and more melodramatic, after Beethoven’s time, people came up with excuses to perform Beethoven’s works (especially orchestral) more grandiosely than Beethoven actually intended. “Certainly his metronome must have been bad, right?!”
Hey, Beethoven (essentially) invented the scherzo movement, and more or less ended his career with the _Ode to _*_Joy_* ! He probably intended a bit more spontaneity and whimsy, and just plain fun, that many give him credit for.
Sometimes directors go faster than the "competition," sometimes slower. I'd love to listen every note as a word in a poem. That's my taste: you cannot jump over any note without losing the beads of the composition. I heard Bernstein once directing Rimsky Korsakov's Spanish Capriccio. I thought he was really in a hurry. But then, years later, I heard him directing Beethoven's 7th symphony, and it was wonderful. It was as if he had whispered it in our ears, specially the Allegretto. So it's true, as Anna says, that the spirit decides. It happens with me, all the time.
Great video. speaking as one who has conducted amateur orchestras, I can think of nothing more terrifying than the opening of Beethoven No. 5
the one thing to consider in addition to everything you mentioned is that they may have been using different scores from different editors. it occurs to me that some scores may not have the slurred half notes at all. we know now that bad editions are available but 30, 40, 50 years ago they may not have been so aware.
The first 4 notes are meant to “”Grab your attention “, which it does. The second four notes set the mood. Pain, sorrow, remorse etc. At least that’s how I hear it. Much like the 2nd movement of his 7th symphony. The first note once again grabs your attention, then the mood is set with the “ppp” volume.Hard to hear the music much like it was for him at that point in his life.
Anyway, Love the video and Thank You!
I only came across your site here last night and this video really gladdened my heart. About 50 years ago there was a programme on BBC 3 (UK) about this very subject, but did not note down which conductor used which tempo. Fate knocking at the door was a much used expression. Roughly four years later (I was 30) I was in a conducting class and the others before me took it at quite lick. My turn and I mentioned that I was going take note of the expression Fate knocking at the door and considered that if it was true then Fate would not be a doing fast ratatataaa on the door but would be more steady and determined. Any way I took it steadier and the conducting professor was not amused, compounded because I could not cite an example that backed me up. I was similar to Boulez´s tempo (not sure when that was dated from, but my effort was in early 1979). I know that I compounded my "error" by introducing an accelerando just after the motif. I now need to work my way through the rest of your videos. Very enjoyable.
Really enjoyed a detailed explanation of the different interpretations! New subscriber ✌🏻
This is the first of your videos that I've seen and I'm impressed. I've subscribed. Beethoven's fifth is a workhorse that it is all too easy to take for granted. I've heard dozens of recordings, both live and studio, which is true of most classical musical lovers. JE Gardiner is my favourite, mostly because of the beauty and energy he brings. Bruno Walter is the only set that I bought that I got rid of. I really couldn't stand it. It was so sluggish. Having said that, the Boulez version you played the intro of was more than enough to mean that I never want to hear any Beethoven conducted by him.
Well done, Anna. Of course this is another piece that we musicians have played many times over our careers, and have seen many conductors. I want to say the Boulez is too slow, but, especially for the first 4 bars, this rhythmic motive could be slower (than elsewhere) in these statements just for emphasis. It'd help new listeners remember this "struggle with fate" that continues deep into the 3rd and 4th movements...
Thank you. Fascinating!! I remember when Gardiner released the Beethoven Symphonies played at what he considered the correct (faster) tempi and with instruments made in the style of the time. Blew me away!!
This was indeed interesting. Like I wrote in another comment on another of your videos explaining this, I'm in awe that I am kiiiiind of sort of really being able to understand what you mean. And showing the example twice that you are talking about helps a lot with understanding it more.
I love this video.
I don't have any one fav recording but I like Karajan (that was the first one I've even heard cuz I had a CD) and Harnoncourt (it's very... defined? I'm not sure how to say it, his interpretation is clearly segmented, and put into small parts, something like when you play baroque and you strictly keep this metric-accent/bar/phrase distinction - I like it)
I´ve often followed the score of this piece but I had never noticed that extra bar in the second phrase!
When it comes to Beethoven there is only two conductors who can do him justice, Arturo Toscanini and Herbert von Karajan. I always look to see how the scherzo is played. I remember hearing Zubin Meta conduction the orchestras of the Israeli Symphony and New York Symphony playing Beethoven's 5th symphony. Imagine 16 bases playing that line together, what power, what sound, and what clarity I heard. When I took my wife the the Denver Symphony Orchestra's concert of Beethoven's 5th under the direction of Marin Alsop we were both horrified as that scherzo became a muddled and unclear mess. Alsop is good when she has to stick to the script in accompanying soloists, but she cannot be trusted to turn in a decent performance anytime else. That same orchestra under different guest conductors performed beautifully and you could tell by the individual musician's facial expressions and body movement they really appreciated someone else on the podium.
Karajan's version ticks the boxes. I don't care if Walter was Mahler's student, his interpretation was SHAMELESSLY SELF- INDULGENT. To bad you didn't include Bernstein's take which wasn't bad.
What about Herbert Blomstedt in this video? th-cam.com/video/3ug835LFixU/w-d-xo.html What do you think?
@@williamsilva5295 I first heard Beethoven's 5th over Armed Forces Radio in 1967 in SE Asia. The conductor was Arturo Toscanini and I still remember that experience . Herbert von Karajan and Zubin Meta directed the best, at least in my mind, performances of that work. Meta led the combined NY symphony and the Israeli symphony for an outstanding experience. Imagine 16 double bases in the schritzo, wish I could have been there in person.
Blomstedt has the bad habit of injecting himself into the performance and he lacks smoothness. His style says "look at me" with the sudden shifts in emphasis, too loud one moment, too soft the next. Beauty should, including music, do two things. The first is attract our emotional attention and the second is attract our intellectual attention. There needs to be a balance of the two and Blomstedt just doesn't get it.
Karajan was a great admirer of Toscanini.
That “slur” is really a tie; there’s a difference.
So well done.
I, hereby, anoint you the new Leonard Bernstein.🙂
Girl, you got chops.
My favorite Beethoven symphony #5 recording is actually on TH-cam. It’s conducted by a young Franz Welzer-Most. It’s got to be from the 90’s. I think it’s the London symphony orchestra. I love it because it’s so energized! And about three quarters of the way through it FWM realizes this is good and it’s happening and he let’s go and has fun. I love it.
One thing that is really tough for community orchestras to get is that it is three eight notes instead of triplets.
This is very true. I had an ear training teacher in college who beat this into us incessantly and it bore fruit. I am an organist and my teachers likewise were fastidious in this regard. I also wish to mention when one has a 2 against 3 (duple and triple) rhythm at the same time. Very challenging for a beginning musician or ensemble. One tends to have the second of the duple land on the last note of the triple - yet another challenge. To illustrate this, go to the exposition in the first movement of Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony (No.6) where Beethoven has duple rhythm in the violins and triple in the basses.
Thanks for bringing this up (I have a comment above about this that includes the emphases on the weak and strong beats.
Hi Anna, Very interesting topic and thank you so much for your explanation. It is a great job especially adding the video and point out some "small action" , it is great help for "layman" like me......😅😅😅
Wow, this was really good. I'm glad that the YT algorithm threw this into my carousel.
What observations could you please point out about Barenboin's conducting?
I liked the way you approached and explained the matter.
I Do remember having heard different LP recordings of that symphony and tempos weren't quite the same, depending on the conductor & orchestra.
I DO appreciate your comment.
Cheers
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Buen video, entre más escucho comentarios de directores de orquesta sobre alguna obra, más disfruto la música. Felicidades!
I just found your channel and this is such great content! Conducting is really so interesting!
thank you so much!
Benjamin Zander also talked about this very subject. He is one of the rare teachers and contractors in detail analysis of music. Also don't forget the great Günther Wand
Dima Slobodeniouk nails it as far as i'm concerned. Even though I've heard this piece so many times Dimas interpretation is the one I find most pleasing.
fascinating talk and thanks for clarifying the slur/ tie thing as it threw me for a bit! Telling maybe that with Karajan the duration is evened out.
Exceptional video: passion, intellect, and cogent diction married to produce insights galore. Favorite Beethovan 5th recording? Christoph von Dohnányi's with the Cleveland Orchestra (with, of course, credit to George Szell whose imprint on the ensemble can still be heard today).
When 2 and a half minutes into the video I decide to subscribe to the channel.👍👍👍
Most fascinating. Thank you. I learned a lot.
Cool video! If you can get a video of Klaus Tennstedt conducting the 5th, I saw him live in London many years ago, and I always though his approach was rather unique!
In a way, my favorite is Karajan "2", recorded 1961-1962. I call it my favorite because it was the first that I purchased, on vinyl in the 1980s. I haven't heard it in a long time. I still have the media, but no way to play it.
Edit: Found it here on TH-cam: th-cam.com/video/6cbFlkRu54I/w-d-xo.html
"Let's talk about Beethoven's 5th" and I hit subscribe...
Thank you for this video, it was very interesting to see the differences. For Beethoven, I have always gravitated to George Szell.
I can't imagine having a full orchestra in unison unless they all know the tempo and heart beat going into it. 7:23 makes sense
Very interesting. Well presented. Liked and subscribed.
I absolutely love what you are doing! This is very energising! I listen to the same composition performed by different conductors to hear their interpretation of what the composer wrote!😊
wow very cool to do it with the timer.
It was very interesting for me that you spoke so precisely about Kleiber. There are wonderful footage on TH-cam of his rehearsals with the Bavarian State Orchestra for Fledermaus. (Just enter kleiber Fledermaus rehearsal) It was so interesting how he was able to convince this conservative, uninspired orchestra of his ideas with a lot of biting humor. I am German and so I understood everything he said immediately. He sang and acted the scenes like a stand-up comedian. But the result was probably the most interesting recording of Die Fledermaus to date.
I hope that makes it clear to you. As for me, I now know no more than when I started.. Watching it again would make no difference; however, I still like it as much as the first time I heard it. I liked it without anyone telling me what to listen for. Imagine that