The Ancient Cynics

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2021
  • The Cynics were an ancient Greek philosophical school that rejected all conventions and proclaimed the pursuit of virtue in accordance with a simple and idealistic way of life. John Hamer of Toronto Centre Place will also discuss how and when the term "cynic" accrued the negative connotation that it carries today (i.e., disbelief in the sincerity of human motives and actions).

ความคิดเห็น • 71

  • @yakamen
    @yakamen 2 ปีที่แล้ว +22

    Hey man, I see this lecture series has been going on since 2018. Random American ins 2021 speaking = This is a great body of work, I'm glad I stumbled in on it (even late). I praise your dedication, rigor, and research. I really missed this stuff from my undergrad days, when I couldn't get enough of it as I'd wished, due to my degree path. The humanities are so crucial. Thank you!

  • @cmustard599
    @cmustard599 2 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    I see connections to Daoism, specifically renunciation of social convention to live a mendicant life in accordance with the way of nature. The traditions diverge dramatically on several critical points of course, but the persistence of this tendency across cultures is fascinating.

    • @johnweber4577
      @johnweber4577 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      It’s interesting how the underlying differences between the ancient Chinese and Greek approaches to philosophy can be discerned from the points of distinction found in their at least somewhat analogous schools. Perhaps the biggest are the Greek emphasis on the individual, personal happiness and abstract theory in contrast to the Chinese focus on the community, personal well-being and historical example when it comes to the primary unit of interest, ultimate aim of a person and means by which to devise models for society. Whether it be in a comparison of the natural living of Daoism and Cynicism, the virtue ethics of Confucianism and Stoicism, the proto-utilitarianism of Mohism and Epicureanism or the ethical egoism of Yangism and Cyrenaicism, one or more of those themes are reflected in some form.

    • @MH-sp7te
      @MH-sp7te 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      It truly is fascinating how many similarities exist between the Socratic-era philosophers (and pre-Socratics) and Chinese philosophy.
      Heraclitus' "the only constant is change" quote has always struck me as being indicative of one of two occurrences - either he literally visited Taoist China, or the Tao is very real and he was able to tap into it somehow.

  • @TheNAWorks
    @TheNAWorks 2 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    i am stoked for this one. diogenes is my boy

    • @devina8812
      @devina8812 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Swag

    • @hombreesloco4065
      @hombreesloco4065 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Diogenes is my boy

    • @moodist1er
      @moodist1er 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Diogenes shits on your fanboy loyalties and rolls over in his garbage heap because you've learned nothing from him but still invoke his name.

    • @TheNAWorks
      @TheNAWorks 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@moodist1er ok

    • @nathanaelsmith3553
      @nathanaelsmith3553 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      "If I wasn't Diogenes I'd like to be Diogenes too."

  • @georgepaul5843
    @georgepaul5843 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Good job. I enjoyed and learned much from your lecture of classical philosophers in Ancient Greece.

  • @Timaeus3
    @Timaeus3 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Thanks for the great lecture, John, as per usual. I love your lectures on Philosophy. It also made a huge difference, imo, that you saved the discussion for the end.

  • @USA50_
    @USA50_ ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks for all that you do!
    Thank you for existing &
    Thank you for being born ☺️👍🙏🇺🇲🇨🇦

  • @dbarker7794
    @dbarker7794 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wonderful lecture. Thanks for sharing it. Going to look for the one the professor referred to about the Stoics.

  • @RunningCordoroy
    @RunningCordoroy 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    How is this channel not more popular? The youtube algorithym needs an update.

  • @Dayglodaydreams
    @Dayglodaydreams ปีที่แล้ว +1

    This is all very interesting.

  • @markhackett2449
    @markhackett2449 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Superb lecturer.

  • @deeznuts6907
    @deeznuts6907 ปีที่แล้ว

    45:00 The version I know says the Greek translation is closer to “undarken me” which would be a double entendre also meaning “enlighten me” stunning Alexander with wit and the realization he could only do one of the two.

    • @PetraKann
      @PetraKann 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Interesting perspective.
      I think it’s simply Diogenes being true to himself and not treating Alexander the Great differently from anyone else.
      Diogenes was also making a political statement “you may command your armies, have power and conquered many nations and land, but you dont own the sun/nature and by default you dont own me - All you can do is kill mw, but never rule my soul.
      True freedom requires courage as well as wisdom
      😮

  • @Kurtlane
    @Kurtlane 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    On stoicism: It's not fatalistic. At least Epictetus's stoicism isn't. Epictetus very much insists that the most important thing is to separate those things that are "in one's hands," i.e. things one can change, from things "in the hands of the gods," i.e. things beyond one's control. The second are to be accepted, but the first can be changed -- so one is free to go ahead and change them if one wishes.

  • @JakobVirgil
    @JakobVirgil 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Allegedly Diogenes wrote a bunch of dialogs and even his own republic.
    Also, He ran his own school in Corinth and it was there that he was most celebrated and where the Alexander story takes place.

  • @kaloarepo288
    @kaloarepo288 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Averroes was the odd man out as he was a medieval Arab or Persian Muslim philosopher -in the Raphael painting

  • @kroneexe
    @kroneexe ปีที่แล้ว

    What do you mean by "disdain for the elements"?

  • @Dayglodaydreams
    @Dayglodaydreams ปีที่แล้ว

    What is the website?

  • @pauliedibbs9028
    @pauliedibbs9028 2 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Great Presentation, However, I Would Hardly Call The Stoics "Like A Rock" ... If Anything Their Abilities To See Negative Emotions As Errors In Judgement, Thus Not Reacting Towards Them, Makes Them More Of An Enigma (or Seasoned Sages) Than Anything. Not Hating In Any Way, Just My Two💲!

  • @Dayglodaydreams
    @Dayglodaydreams ปีที่แล้ว

    I wish he would have gone a few generations outside Diogenes, specifically.

  • @solaurelian7638
    @solaurelian7638 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    does anyone know the name of this professor?

    • @centre-place
      @centre-place  2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      John Hamer is the lecturer: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Hamer

    • @solaurelian7638
      @solaurelian7638 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@centre-place thanks, he is an awesome dude!

  • @greesey9096
    @greesey9096 ปีที่แล้ว

    1:06:50 The real answer to that question is, if everyone was a cynic then we wouldn’t have society and man could survive off the fruit of the tree that he tore down to build it

  • @marcinjackowski8898
    @marcinjackowski8898 หลายเดือนก่อน

    The lecturer missed a lot of important stuff, still showing Cynics in mostly unfavourable light. Three examples:
    Ascetism was more than 'denying', it was actually exercising, making sure their body was really strong - Diogenes took part in games with some success.
    Self-reliance was also an economic policy, Cynics stressed how you personal choice for food would reduce need for imports of food from abroad, which would also affect state politics, i.e. they were not that self-centred.
    Thirdly, they were not just beggars, they mostly worked menial work in the city (like helpers at marketplace) - this was differentiating them from other, ritch land-owning, slave-holding philosophers at the time.

  • @Darisiabgal7573
    @Darisiabgal7573 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I get what people are trying to parallel Yeshua with cynics, but from the perspective of John the Baptist and repentence, Yeshua being in that prophetic philosophical lineage. They had to give something deeply of themselves and repent so that baptism would have meaning. The Yeshua followers, the Evyon, were not solitary poor, but poor in a community that traveled in pairs from place to place. It’s not simply that they were poor but they were expected to give of themselves. Diogenes broke is cup, the Evyon would have given it too the poor except it would have violated cleanliness laws. Just to be clear, the distinctions are subtle, but Diogenes is doing something to gain status amount philosophers. Yeshua is doing something he thinks will prepare Jews for the end of days, mistakenly, but that’s the JtB lineage of anticipating the day when prophecy is fulfilled.
    I can make a few other distinctions with regard to Yeshua, in that some of his ascetic practices follow in the eastern traditions of asceticism as a means of enhancing spiritual experiences as part of mystical practices involving bathing (at least suggested in reference to a Peter) and meditation. The plethora of mystical religions that explode after Yeshua died (and the book of Acts) suggest they were engaging in occult like practices. Presumably they were trying to understand when and how the end would come. Yeshua did not specifically deny fasting, just public fasting so they may have even fasted, the Evyon appear not to eat meat so that definitely would have kept the calorie count down.
    My impression is that the Evyon were searching for a way to know and be god while they were still alive. It’s kind of silly since deities come from the mind, and so the bottom up origin of god has the further twist is that you are grabbing deep in the inner light to find something someone else dragged out and has told or written about;, its their god from their mind; as if you search your inner mind you would find your brothers god and not your own. And apparently they didn’t. But anyway, Yeshua died, and suddenly many of them pulled Yeshua up as a special spirit, angel, or in the case of the Ephesians, god. Paul brought up his Master a sort of super messianic Iesus Christos. Marcion brought up a Yeshua whose sword was drawn against an demonic elemental creator god, Yahweh. The Johannian community brought Jesus up as a kind of tag team of God or split personality of God that then had to be explained using the trinity. Why I bring this up, we have to judge the motives of Yeshua by the products, a number of mystical religions and soon thereafter the disappearance of the core. Given that we have to treat the ascetic practices a being a mystical not philosophical technique.

    • @brucecampbell6578
      @brucecampbell6578 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      God writes nature and man writes books. I would say the argument begins with people who prefer books to nature. God is life and no other and the most ancient of days. Our life. Once we all lived under the stars and slept upon the dust. We shared communion with all life. Some were not content with what they were offered and took what they wanted. Usury took hold in the minds of men. And our gratitude waned accordingly. I would say from the natural standpoint that I am very suspicious of the idea of male baptisms. Nature always chooses the female for that role. Abrahamic religion is a clear reversal of that holy sacrament.

    • @Darisiabgal7573
      @Darisiabgal7573 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@brucecampbell6578 life was written by itself 3.8 to 4.2 billion years ago.

    • @brucecampbell6578
      @brucecampbell6578 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Darisiabgal7573 While I agree with your statement, I would say Roman censors control the narrative. J is a modern western invention. I would be more inclined to believe it is Isis crucified on the cross of Roman Capitalism. She previously ruled the hearts of man.

  • @picketytwin
    @picketytwin ปีที่แล้ว

    virtue indeed sustains the world , lets look at the etymology , " from Latin virtutem (nominative virtus) "moral strength, high character, goodness; manliness; valor, bravery, courage (in war); excellence, worth," from vir "man" , virtue is not just morality....to the person who said virtue is not needed ,imagine renting a house ,paying the rent and then the landlord kicks you out of the house, you would not like that ...dogs do have virtues ,why does it wag its tail and remember you when you offer a piece of biscuit...

  • @xepulvedaaldo677
    @xepulvedaaldo677 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    The lyceum was were you learned "The Naked Truth"?

  • @joecaner
    @joecaner 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    “I’d rather go mad than to feel pleasure.”
    - Antisthenes
    Too late dude. You are already crazy.

    • @Alkis05
      @Alkis05 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      He wasn't feeling pleasure though, which is his point.

    • @joecaner
      @joecaner 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@Alkis05 Exactly! He already chosen to go mad.

  • @noharakun
    @noharakun ปีที่แล้ว

    the dude saying that it wasnt active begging youre wrong about that and the guy giving the lecture missed the story about diogenes, where he was in the market and someone saw him asking alms of a statue, and when asked why he was doing that he said "to practice being refuse" this clearly shows that it was an active begging and not just "sitting around waiting for people to give you shit"

  • @Dayglodaydreams
    @Dayglodaydreams ปีที่แล้ว

    I bet within their animal order, something similar to virtue could exist among dogs.

  • @Dayglodaydreams
    @Dayglodaydreams ปีที่แล้ว

    Flaneur?

  • @420JRMan
    @420JRMan ปีที่แล้ว

    Pyramid's five-sides.

  • @moodist1er
    @moodist1er 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    You can make videos showing how Abrahamic religions are plagiarized from older religions but you still believe in Jesus, and Socrates?

    • @DJDamnSelf
      @DJDamnSelf 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I would say no matter your spiritual theories you can still believe that the said people existed (or not), without the belief that they were any different than you or me.

    • @moodist1er
      @moodist1er 2 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@DJDamnSelf that has nothing to do with what I said..

    • @DH-oj2ru
      @DH-oj2ru ปีที่แล้ว

      Yes, monotheistic religions have their root in paganism and shamanism. Cognitive dissonance is the best friend of the religious scholar. Check out Brian Muraresku's "The Immortality Key" if you want a good read that supports this with ample evidence.

  • @patrickbarnes9874
    @patrickbarnes9874 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    "Why must women obey oppressive gender rules?" Why women specifically? Why the implication that it's okay to force men into gender roles but it's inappropriate to force women into them? That comment seems to violate Centre Place's claims of being a welcoming inclusive community. Inclusive would imply being concerned about oppressive rules for everyone, not just women.

  • @benquinneyiii7941
    @benquinneyiii7941 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Filter

  • @aroojrana2172
    @aroojrana2172 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hay man plzz speak in Urdu

  • @Briareos1337
    @Briareos1337 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    The guy who started speaking at 1:09:40 should attend school and not conferences, he can't even form a sentence!

    • @deeznuts6907
      @deeznuts6907 ปีที่แล้ว

      You should study more philosophy

    • @Alkis05
      @Alkis05 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Maybe he would sound more smarter to you if he was speaking in his own language.

  • @Dayglodaydreams
    @Dayglodaydreams ปีที่แล้ว

    Some of these stories sound apocraphal.

  • @benquinneyiii7941
    @benquinneyiii7941 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Like a dog