For personal reference. 7:08 Warren Spector, what is Thief to him. 8:37 Doug Church, what is Deus Ex to him. 10:45 The player doesn't change the narrative, all players go through the same story at the end of the day. So why does Deus Ex put narrative so close to the player, if the player can't do anything with it? 12:00 Warren Spector gives his personal backstory of Thief and Deus Ex. 13:05 Answers question. (smr: Because the players would want it and we don't want the players to feel frustrated by not having it?) 14:23 If you're going to do that and not have the player impact it, how do you make sure it is not confusing? 14:54 Disagreement, there is impact, gives feedback to player. 15:23 Everything in Deus ex is minute to minute. Including the story. You don't get to have an impact on large stuff (stay with unatco) but you can have an impact on small stuff. 16:16 By giving them control over little things, you give the player the illusion that they are in control of larger things. 17:17 Question: Where does the tension come from in Thief? 17:54 Where the tension comes from in Thief. (smr: Tension from prolonging the moment the player thinks she is going to get caught. That is why thief has "I think I heard someone (pause) I think I'll go and check (pause)" barks)(cntns to 20:20) 19:20 Thief's AI is there to foil the player not beat him. 20:25 We should talk about how to give feedback to player about dangers in thief. 21:10 Was the geometry conceived to broaden that edge of tension? (tbc) 51:44 Warren Spector. In the end, what is Deus Ex. 53:28 Thief
Hate GDC time limits. This was one for the history books, but nah get them off the stage, we need to hear from other people about procedural generation techniques ... blah
I'd love to hear Doug do a Post Mortem on System Shock! :D Or, someone else could do it, or perhaps it could be done by a variety of looking glass folks, in the form of found audio logs!?
I would love to know even more specifics about some of Warren's main criticisms of Thief, because there were certainly some missions that are not nearly as good as other ones. Some of the missions are quite flawed, and the player can get very lost, and areas look kind of the same, and I can totally understand his frustrations back then. :) I think systemically, the game is so beautiful! And I'm glad people are still making missions for it even today! But yes, there were high points and low points to the official games, mainly just based on the mission implementations, more so than the specifics of systems and mechanics. :)
Maybe in some small aspects, but both of those games in no way try to offer a truly immersive simulation. Rather an illusion of one that either focuses on lots of combat or lots of "perform X task". These games (DX, Thief) offered limitless replayability via their systematic elements. After you've beaten a FromSoft game, each playthrough is largely the same, just with slightly different approaches to combat. Ubisoft games are more like open world checklists, rather than systematic playgrounds. Doug doesn't get a lot of Freedom at Ubisoft, rather he gets a nice steady paycheck. I'm glad he still consults on lots of titles, but he is in no meaningful way pushing this stuff anymore. Dishonored, Prey, and Wild West are good examples of games that continues this. Check out Raphael Colantonio. I think he quit AAA because he was tired of working with suits, which Doug doesn't seem to mind.
I'm not saying this aged poorly so much as I'm saying I wish it had aged better than it did.. and would still like to see that, I just didn't think it would be a 17-year gap in the progress.. 2022 now, I'm still waiting.. and I'm starting to lose that hope but I'll never give up, cuz I'm a try hard.
I'd love to hear Doug do a Post Mortem on System Shock! :D Or, someone else could do it, or perhaps it could be done by a variety of looking glass folks, in the form of found audio logs!?
You know.. I've heard Warren specter give that backstory a few times now, probably at least 14.. and I'm still waiting for something else.. I'm literally waiting for the end of this conversation to happen in gaming but it's just not happening.. and it doesn't look like it's likely to.
For personal reference.
7:08 Warren Spector, what is Thief to him.
8:37 Doug Church, what is Deus Ex to him.
10:45 The player doesn't change the narrative, all players go through the same story at the end of the day. So why does Deus Ex put narrative so close to the player, if the player can't do anything with it?
12:00 Warren Spector gives his personal backstory of Thief and Deus Ex.
13:05 Answers question. (smr: Because the players would want it and we don't want the players to feel frustrated by not having it?)
14:23 If you're going to do that and not have the player impact it, how do you make sure it is not confusing?
14:54 Disagreement, there is impact, gives feedback to player.
15:23 Everything in Deus ex is minute to minute. Including the story. You don't get to have an impact on large stuff (stay with unatco) but you can have an impact on small stuff.
16:16 By giving them control over little things, you give the player the illusion that they are in control of larger things.
17:17 Question: Where does the tension come from in Thief?
17:54 Where the tension comes from in Thief. (smr: Tension from prolonging the moment the player thinks she is going to get caught. That is why thief has "I think I heard someone (pause) I think I'll go and check (pause)" barks)(cntns to 20:20)
19:20 Thief's AI is there to foil the player not beat him.
20:25 We should talk about how to give feedback to player about dangers in thief.
21:10 Was the geometry conceived to broaden that edge of tension?
(tbc)
51:44 Warren Spector. In the end, what is Deus Ex.
53:28 Thief
wish these guys could go on forever
Hate GDC time limits. This was one for the history books, but nah get them off the stage, we need to hear from other people about procedural generation techniques ... blah
There should be a GDC of Doug Church talking about directing System Shock 1.
I'd love to hear Doug do a Post Mortem on System Shock! :D
Or, someone else could do it, or perhaps it could be done by a variety of looking glass folks, in the form of found audio logs!?
Wow, I could find a Doug Church material at last.
Thanks for this. Never actually heard Doug Church talk before.
bdnoob really hard if you try because of the elvis impersonator
This is amazing anyone that wants to make games should watch this video. By the way this two guys are working on System Shock 3, Doug as consultant.
Ah, what could've been...
DX1 is the real SS3.
Bless your heart for uploading this.
I would love to know even more specifics about some of Warren's main criticisms of Thief, because there were certainly some missions that are not nearly as good as other ones.
Some of the missions are quite flawed, and the player can get very lost, and areas look kind of the same, and I can totally understand his frustrations back then. :)
I think systemically, the game is so beautiful! And I'm glad people are still making missions for it even today! But yes, there were high points and low points to the official games, mainly just based on the mission implementations, more so than the specifics of systems and mechanics. :)
Feels kind of like this is the two approaches that became the Ubisoft method and the From Soft method of open world design.
Maybe in some small aspects, but both of those games in no way try to offer a truly immersive simulation. Rather an illusion of one that either focuses on lots of combat or lots of "perform X task". These games (DX, Thief) offered limitless replayability via their systematic elements. After you've beaten a FromSoft game, each playthrough is largely the same, just with slightly different approaches to combat. Ubisoft games are more like open world checklists, rather than systematic playgrounds. Doug doesn't get a lot of Freedom at Ubisoft, rather he gets a nice steady paycheck. I'm glad he still consults on lots of titles, but he is in no meaningful way pushing this stuff anymore.
Dishonored, Prey, and Wild West are good examples of games that continues this. Check out Raphael Colantonio. I think he quit AAA because he was tired of working with suits, which Doug doesn't seem to mind.
I'm not saying this aged poorly so much as I'm saying I wish it had aged better than it did.. and would still like to see that, I just didn't think it would be a 17-year gap in the progress.. 2022 now, I'm still waiting.. and I'm starting to lose that hope but I'll never give up, cuz I'm a try hard.
These guys seem very uncomfortable. Especially Doug, he just seems absolutely, unimpressed with being conscious lol.
I'd love to hear Doug do a Post Mortem on System Shock! :D
Or, someone else could do it, or perhaps it could be done by a variety of looking glass folks, in the form of found audio logs!?
You know.. I've heard Warren specter give that backstory a few times now, probably at least 14.. and I'm still waiting for something else.. I'm literally waiting for the end of this conversation to happen in gaming but it's just not happening.. and it doesn't look like it's likely to.
Let me rephrase that, I'm waiting for that conversation to happen again.. like it's a star from scratch point at this point.
Warren looks like Spielberg.
This can't be from 2002 because Looking Glass Studios went defunct in 2000!
UltraGamez Your point?
lol this was awesome