What do Buffy's vampires mean?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- aka the sequel to metaphysics of buffyverse souls
one in a long line of "buffyverse thoughts I'm just going to record and edit and keep for posterity because they jiggle around in my head and need to be heard"
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Spike was always the reason the soul/demon narrative never really worked. Spike loved Buffy without a soul, and soon after the transformation, his immediate thoughts still went to his mother. His obsession with Buffy was always related, imo, to his relationship with women who rejected him in the past. He displayed a conscience after transforming his mother and in his obligations towards Dawn. Spike as both a human and vampire was always motivated by love and acceptance. This was really good video.
bingo
In season 7 he actually states that he did not love her because he was not capable of "love".
@@twoncassidy7630 Those are the words of a damaged individual, who does not see themselves worthy of love or acceptance. It's more a statement of trauma than one of fact.
@@myria2834 of course it is/was metaphor (as is just about everything Joss had done) but i believe that it was also literal. His "love" for her was all self serving, if he were actually capable of love then he wouldn't have attempted to do what he did to her.
@@twoncassidy7630 People with souls do that all the time.
As a recovering addict spike and angel's stories really spoke to me. You dont always remember everything about that time and sometimes it can feel like someone else but it's still you and all that guilt and remorse sits there making the idea of a deserving a second chance laughable but you have no choice but to move forward. You feel like one of the undead but you have to keep living
In the opening scene of the pilot episode of Angel they barely veil the metaphor of alcoholism and being a vampire.
@@twoncassidy7630 neat
You know maybe that explains Xanders's unbridled hatred for vampires they never go into it as much as they could of. But Xander's dad was implied to be an abusive alcoholic. @@twoncassidy7630
The "demonic possession" angle makes the existence of loser vampires like Sunday's gang of vampire dropouts, Harmony, Harmony's minions and the really dumb newbie vampire that Darla tries to get to sire her again pretty hilarious if you take it to be true. Imagine being a demon incarnated in a human body to wreak havoc on the Earth, and then getting stuck using Harmony as a template for your new personality. It's implied (regardless of whether you think she's a demon with Harmony's memories or a corrupted mirror of human Harmony) that Harmony's personality was largely unchanged because being a shallow, petty high school bully was as evil as she was capable of being: she had a defined personality, but no dark hidden depths, so the demon didn't get the luxury of either a relative blank slate to mould into a monster (like Liam) or someone with hidden demons to bring to the surface.
@@realityshifter3399 Not a total one. But he was a hedonist with no greater ambitions, someone with few meaningful connections to the world and no apparent interests or hobbies beyond seeking new experiences. If you take the "demonic possession" angle, there are very few boundaries there. There's an awful lot of room to create your ideal persona.
I always took it like The Demon becomes the person it posseses just a more amplified version of the person. Like the demon became Harmony just extra Harmony!
@@Talisguy also he grew up in 18th century Ireland, he did not have much opportunities to have a connections to the world as a human
@@realityshifter3399 It's implied that Liam was very aimless waste of a person without much ambition. So many Buffy theorists have considered the possibility that Angelus was as bad as he was because the demon that took up in him had a lot more room to extrapolate and be it's naturally evil self. Meanwhile Vampire's like Spike came from more well defined characters like William, so in taking their host they got saddled with more of their baggage and personality and had to play in that sand box so to speak. Same with how Drusilla's vampire got stuck with a crazy person and therefore had to work with some insanity. It also explains why Angelus is such a complete departure from what we see of Liam and later Angel. He is just more vicious because the monster is more unbound to be itself.
I think of the vampire as a lesser demon that needs a human host and replaces their soul and takes on traits from their host because of the memories and experiences they inherit from their human body.
The big thing with the entire canon is that Angel and Angelus are treated very differently from vampires like Spike and Darla who also have souls at points.
There's also the very key point that is kind of missed in all of this. The vampire demon gets the human's memories, but when you get your soul back, the human soul gets all the demon's memories. So Angel goes back to being Liam except horrified by what he experienced as Angelus, and that informs him into becoming Angel. Meanwhile Spike becomes William with the memories of Spike, but by that point he has been around so long that he takes more of Spike's traits because it's closer the more well defined William if you take away inhibititions. And Darla really doesn't show much of a difference with or without a soul besides a distaste for all the carnage she caused and the capability to love her son. But you can reckon that with Darla being a pretty cynical jaded lady of the night who was used up by the world and already was in a dark place pre death, which just worked well for a demon to just add a touch of unrepetent evil.
Probably it's part of the reason Angelus wanted to mindbroke Drusilla into madness before turning her. Turning a genuine good and pious person without relevant dark aspects (vampires can "smell" the dark sides of you personality, even if you try to hide them) probably would had made a boring vampire, or even a vampire with depression/suicidial ideas. So he needed first to "ruin" Drusilla's mind, so the new Vampire born from her would be more akin to his "tastes".
Watching this, it occurs to that the way vampires talk about their experience is very similar to dissociation. You enter a state where you're sort of acting reactively, without full ability to make conscious choices. You may remember it, or maybe not, or maybe blur of the two. You feel like the person who did those things wasn't you, like something else was controlling your body... but you might still feel guilty about things you did during that time. This contrasts with something I have a lot of experience with, seizures. There are a lot of similarities; I don't remember what my body does during that time, and I don't feel like I was the one who was in control. But in that case, if I say, knock over a lamp, I don't feel guilty about it at all. That case is more like the "pure demon posession". Vampires, then, are more like an extended dissociative fugue. They don't associate with anything they are doing, and thus, cannot make choices. As a result, they cannot then build any kind of identity, they can't grow and change. Drusilla is an interesting case in this lens; she always had a fractured identity to begin with. uhhh, I thought I had more to say about Dru but I'm getting tired now so I'll wrap it up here
yea! i think it works wonderfully as a metaphor for dissociation, addiction. it's not literally "someone else," but can feel as though it might be.
@@5x5Takes I also think it looks like a dissociative disorder induced, for example, by stress of dying. And I am interested in the concept of responsibility in this case, now I'm reading Billy Milligan, trying to figure it out.
As someone who also has seizures this makes sense to me. People ask what they are like and all I can say “I wouldn’t know. I’m not there. Other people say it looks i’m possessed. I only know when I’m back.”
Disassociation, addiction, s*icidal ideation...really can be applied to so much
I was a big Anne Rice fan at the same time I was into Buffy. I felt like Buffy captured the essence of Rice's lore, but framed more for teens. In Queen of the Damned, it was originally a demonic possession that made the first vampire and all vampires were connected by blood. It was seen as an anomaly to have happened at all.
If I were to think about it in science terms, it's like the first cell to incorporate a mitochondrion, which became a part of itself, though, still distinct. And every daughter cell has the same configuration. Once an individual incorporates vampire blood, it fundamentally changes their biology and cognition, but it is not a possession so much as a parasitic spiritual infection, in the case of Anne Rice.
yea! that's a very cool way to put it. that's how i see it and how i feel the text portrays it.
"Are people still falling for that Anne Rice routine?"
-Spike
@@luthersmithers6052 Fictions, my friend. The vulgar fictions of a demented Irishman. -Louis
@@jessesloan864
"She's evil, you gawless tit." -Spike
"Did you just call me a tit?" -Angel
I always found it interesting back in the day that Angel seemed to draw a distinct line between himself with and without a soul, there was Angel and Angelus and yet while Angel wanted redemption so badly he still continued to refer to himself as a soulless vampire as a completely different person so much so as having a different name. Then came along Spike with his returned soul and he’s still Spike not just in name. Watching this and seeing again that poignant conversation between Spike and Angel in the hospital I was struck by Angel using the term me while describing his actions without a soul and that I think I didn’t appreciated at the time the significance of that. To me the vampire and the human are the same person it’s just the soul is holding back your darker tendencies the more the vampire has the more the human had. A bit like being drunk and losing your inhibitions, your still the same person but you’re more prone to doing things that a sober you would hold back on.
Also the flashback that angel still hung out larping with the gang for a while, after getting a soul.
Buffy has demon heart - soul and strength - inside her - but didn’t lose her own soul. And not all demons are evil. Some are just very pragmatic and literal.
Some demons have souls some demons don’t have souls - the soulless-ness of Vampire could be due to the fact that they died. But I think there is truth in the nature of a persons mind and personality when “soulless” - as not all soulless creatures are bad - BUT the souls tends to be the force that holds back the “Id” as it appears to be when Buddy has her soul slowly sucked out when she goes to college and she starts behaving very impulsive … 🤷🏻♀️
@@memeseeku3618could be the demon in Buffy was diluted so much it didn’t affect her personality, since the first Slayer was an absolute monster in every sense of the word. Or maybe it affects them just enough that they’re able to do darker things without caring about consequences. I’m not saying as full fledged as vamps, but they definitely cross the moral line from time to time
@@deadpooldan9862 the first slayer wasn’t a monster - she was animalistic because of when she was created. But no - Liam Angel and Angelus are the same person. One just doesn’t have a soul due to the demon infection pushing it out. Not all vampires behave like Liam. The implication is that not having a soul makes you a monster. The difference w buddy is that her infection doesn’t push out her soul. However, not every soulless creature becomes like Liam/Angel/Angelus. Essentially - he has so much guilt because that IS him - it’s what he’s capable of without the soul holding him back.
@@memeseeku3618 that’s fair, but the first Slayer was a monster because the demon took over her personality, making her more animalistic than regular vamps, and only controlled by the first Watchers. I do think vamps are just who they were in life, but the “demon takes over a human corpse thing” is very stupid when you really dig deeper into the lore
I kind of never questioned the Watcher's explanation of vampirism & was skeptical when I first started watching your video. But damn, you completely changed my mind! I think your theories & explanations are my favourite headcanon now. You made this possession-angle seem so ridiculous, especially when you brought up how it's never questioned whether Darla was possessed by the same demon again. What an interesting video!
A demon possession of the body never made sense to me in the case of vampires because they don’t talk about the things they did as if it was someone else controlling them (eg. When Spike and Angel get their souls back) it makes far more sense that what they are calling their soul is their moral conscious, they no longer feel empathy, guilt, restraint, like a psychopath. They can play act it but it’s them still without inhibitions or remorse, the selfish core of their personality. So they are still themselves, just not fully. When the other parts of their consciousness come back suddenly they are flooded with shame, guilt etc and it feels an unbearable weight to bear knowing that they were responsible because the part of them that did those things is still there, has always and will always be there but without the normal brake system that stops them doing those things.
agreed, esp given how vampires are meant to represent the id/subconscious/addict
Perfectly stated. I have always believed the human soul is there, but in a state of almost deep sleep. The demon changes the body, mind and soul. Even when the human soul reawakens and is in the driver set, the physiological change from the demon taking over the body is permanent. Once changed, always changed. Need to still feed, aversion to holy objects, sunlight etc.
It truly is a physical, mental, and spiritual dominance of the demonic possession, taking over and changing the body of a deceased human.
These rules are unbreakable and undebageable. There ARE some constants that aren't really left up to discussion.
It's a lesser demonic spirit with no memories of its own before the infection.
Other "pure" demons refer to them as pests and parasites.
The demon itself has no personality, it takes the darkest obsessions and personality traits of the host and amplifies them to 11.
Liam was a hedonist with no redeeming qualities, so that's who Angelus became.
That's why Liam/Angel feels so guilty, it's his desires.
I’m so happy you posted! Your takes on the metaphysics of the Buffyverse are absolutely top notch. Your deep understanding and obvious love of the lore is second to none on this entire platform. Hell, you might understand it better than Joss himself.
Passion of the Nerd is an astounding channel that delves into the entire WhedonVerse. I really recommend them for stuff like this.
I've come to understand vampires in Buffy as the interplay between memory and conscience. There is a continuity of memory for Angel, Spike and Darla, but a discontinuity of conscience. One could even argue that the 'demon' that takes over a person's body is a form of anti-conscience that revels in cruelty. When a person is turned, their soul is taken and replaced with this demon that makes all the worst choices in place of a soul that had the capacity to make the right ones.
As for the comparison with possession in the Buffyverse, as far as I remember, the occasions we see non-vampire possession of main characters, it is generally accompanied with a loss of memory. Without those memories to accompany their soul, it makes perfect sense that they would feel no guilt for actions they do not recall performing.
Even with a restored soul, a vampire still has to contend with the memories of the horrific acts that their body performed. It will depend deeply upon the individual whether you can contend with the reprehensible actions that you remember performing, even if logically you can rationalise that it wasn't 'really' you that did them. You still remember doing them, you remember how it felt, so you still feel remorse for them now that you are capable of doing so.
And on the 'anti-conscience' side of things, when Angelus is in control, he feels anti-remorse for the good things Angel did. While Angel hates that he felt good about hurting people when Angelus was in control, Angelus hates that he felt good when he was helping people or feeling warm fuzzies for his loved ones.
Also, as a final point, one of my favourite lines about the soul in the Buffyverse (hell, the whole scene is amazing) is when Spike reveals to Buffy that his is back, and he refers to it being a "bit worse for lack of use". The soul isn't who you are, but it does inform, almost completely, HOW you are. It is only a part of the full being, but it is an intrinsic part.
The steering column of a car is only a tiny part of the whole, but if you replace the gears so that turning right makes you go left, that will drastically change where that car ends up travelling.
On the other hand, they do call the soul your "essence" at times and clearly make it the seat of who you are.
When Buffy dies, her soul/essence goes to some heaven, and she retains memories of it when she comes back.
When Fred's soul is (supposedly) destroyed by Illyria's resurrection, the characters are gutted because they wanted to take her essence back, but couldn't. Even though Illyria retains her memories, unlike a vampire it has its own memories and it feels no anti-guilt about them, but uses them to its own advantage at first.
So I do not think the soul is just an intrinsic part of you, but it is who you are in the most fundamental sense (which in universe is also a moral sense, basically your moral identity).
This does not mean lines do not get blurred, identity-wise. Buffy feels altered after coming back and she does not register as human to Spike's chip. Illyria clearly feels attachment to Wesley and pain for his death, even if she thought she was just pretending to be Fred.
Right on, great analogies.
I had interpreted it as a “baby demon” with no formed personal identity takes over a newly-dead human. And the human soul is in some sort of limbo until the vampire is slain. But there is a varying “delay” for the memories of the human to sync up with the vampire - and vice versa.
In Becoming Part 2 - when Willow restores Angel’s soul - he does express confusion to Buffy about what’s happening. He even says it feels like he “hasn’t seen her in months.” Given time, his memories would have synched back up to current day.
When angel first gets his soul the guy who cursed him said in”time you will remember everything…”so yeah it takes a bit to sync back up as you said .
When I was watching Buffy/Angel as a teen (and naively desperate for a hard magic mechanic that explained vampires) I developed a head canon where a person's soul was "shattered" upon their death. All the parts tied to their identity like memories and desires were kept, but their morality and compassion, etc were lost to wherever souls go when you die. The demon spirit then entered upon vampification and "filled in the gaps" with evil opposites to the lost parts, like immorality and cruelty. Ergo, part of the person remains within the vampire, but so does the demon. My reasoning for why this wasn't explained as such was that the Watchers just didn't understand it as well as they thought because of their arrogance. This is of course very different from when all of Fred's soul is burned out of existence by Illyria.
Haven't watched yet but just wanted to say I'm really happy you are revisiting Buffy content 😊 catch you at the end
Wonderful work indeed
The best argument against vampirsm in buffy being a kind of possession in my opinion is that is that every other kind of possession in the buffyverse isnt treated the way vampirsm is the victim after getting their body back doesnt feel nearly as guilty as when a vampire gets a soul
Take xander.. he never felt prolonged guilt over his hyena phase cause that was full on possession it wasnt him but when vampires get souls all three experienced extreme guilt they showed and reacted to it in different ways but none of them saw it as "that wasnt me" even angel who is the most unique and split example always saw it as him
The main thing t remember, is the writers have gone on record saying the will retcon established canon for a new storyline. We have 3 distinct eras of what the soul/vampires mean.
Great video, thought I missed seeing two parallels, the VampireWillow/ DarkWillow similarities, and the semi-soulless Buffy in season 4. Also, I always loved the "Conversations with Dead People" talk Buffy has with the therapist vampire, I think he has the best explanation in the show. He still is the same person, but sans soul and 'connected to a powerful, all-consuming evil', that pretty much explains everything. You become a vampire, you're still you, but has absolutely no conscience AND are very much compelled by ancient evil. Being a good person or a bad person isn't connected to your moral ability of feeling guilt.
To me...I go with a vampire being a hybrid of a demon and the corrupted version of who they were, with the corrupted human forming much more of the template for the vampire's personality than the demon (usually - I think Angel has an unusually assertive demon, because Liam was an ambitionless layabout who gave the demon a relatively blank slate to work with). There's a fair bit of implication that Angel and Angelus are not as distinct as Angel likes to pretend they are - notably, it's implied on several occasions that souled Angel still wants to hurt and kill people and is choosing not to act on those impulses. If becoming a vampire simply means you no longer care about the morality of killing people for food, for convenience or out of boredom, because you no longer have a soul, then why does Angel, with a soul, confess to wanting to kill Buffy? Odd if Angel is just Liam plus centuries of lived experience plus trauma - unless Liam would have become a serial killer if given the opportunity - but understandable if he's Liam plus lived experience plus trauma plus demon. Angel can pretend to be Angelus remarkably convincingly for an awkward introvert with zero talent for performing: maybe some of it was just him saying the quiet part out loud? And it's probably the least stupid explanation for Eternity (emphasis on "least stupid," there are no good explanations): he's not Angelus, he's Angel on drugs and with all his internal filters off. He hasn't lost his soul.
There are some psychological changes that don't seem like they're *entirely* explainable by the loss of conscience and the capacity for positive growth. And Vampire Willow acts pretty different from Dark Willow for reasons that I don't think can entirely be explained by Willow's grief.
But I definitely don't think it's just demonic possession, because in addition to all the reasons given in the video for why this would make the characters much less interesting, it doesn't explain vampires like, again, Harmony.
I dont know, angel was cursed with a conciousness. To suffer. Maybe his hightened empathy is part of that soul that also is an empathy curse.
But angelus taking over, is it that his dark personality never left, that its the empaphy curse , ok angelus is weird.
And yes angel is cery capable and knows stuff angelus did.
I don't think the "demon" is a real entity, in the sense that it doesn't have his own identity. It is more like a corruptible force, that takes the aspects of the human it inhabits and perverts them into a new being, completely free of any inhibition. That's why It makes sense for them to feel guilty: that WAS you. The demon didn't act on his own, he just did what you would If you didn't care for the consequences. Even If you are not in control, all that evil was always there inside. This would make much more sense.
I think Liam is dead.
Angel is just Angelus with the curse.
In one episode he says, "If I was Angelus half of you would be dead for the hell of it."
Angel is always thinking about killing them, but chooses not to.
I think that a human becomes "demonic" without a soul or the "conscience." It's not a literal possession but a metaphysical one. It's a metaphor created by the magical disease of vampirism in the buffyverse. It is similar to the werewolf but more sophisticated and complex.
Well, if you stick to the canon, vampires are actual demonic beings from another dimension, Pylea..
Noop. Soul goes bye bye, demon with soul's memories takes over body If some writers didn't get that they should have.
What you describe is basically how "The Vampire Diaries" works.
@@markborok4481 It doesn't really change what I said or invalidate it. Maybe the souless self is a being from another dimension?
@Nunya Bidness The soul is the conscience, though. They say that all the time in the series. The Vampire Diaries is not what I'm describing as the vampires act pretty much the same people after vampirism with less inhibitions. That's not what I'm describing at all.
That's why a flood of emotions and regret come back to vampires when they are reinstalled a soul in the buffyverse. They lose their ability to have a moral compass otherwise. That was the "soul." The light of humanity in all of us. Without it, we are "demons."
@@Nunya_Bidness_53 I think it was completely retconned (like Willow's sexuality) later on and suddenly not only it was implied that vampire was actually the same person but without compassion - and Buffy herself was becoming like that when that roommate was stealing her soul - but there were also all sorts of demons WITH and without soul.
I think one way to thread the needle is the first vampire. The first vampire was made when a demon mixed his blood with a human. It’s easy to interpret the demon who “takes over” as that demon who infects all vampires with that sliver of its corrupting evil, and it’s that demon piece that brings out the worst in a new turned vampire and it’s that demon piece who fought off the possession in season 2.
i dig that
This is absolutely where I landed after this video changed my mind. I can see how watchers might have "tested" for demon and come up with a positive bc Demon blood / DNA. And maybe it does intensify certain behaviors, lend strength and aggression... But it's not a separate entity in any way. Great comment, amazing video.
There's was that episode (Angel I think) where a demon possessed a child more evil then he was. The demon was overpowered and used by the child. That was a very unexpected possession twist.
Lovely video. But I always saw it as more of a demonic essence than an actual demon. I thought that all vampires had to come from the same origin source (there had to be a First Siring, after all) but that's all that passed on: the lifeforce; the mind of the First Sire never went with it. Otherwise, all vampires would have a hive mind, controlled by the same First Vampire, and have the same personality.
So the way I saw it, it was a Jekyll/Hyde thing. Both Angelus and Angel were two sides of the same person, but concentrated depending on which lifeforce was dominant. Angel's soul was the true person because it was there before the siring, but Angelus was Angel without his soul's direction, and with an evil nature to it. I never saw Angelus as a separate entity taking up residence. Remember, even souled vampires still carry their supernatural powers and weaknesses, so there's a mindless magic present.
At least to me, I’ve always considered the demonic possession explanation of vampirism to be true. It is just the possession that takes place is different from normal possession like in Carpe Noctem. The way I see it is that when a person is turned into a vampire, the person is dead and a demon posses them, it is just when the demon possesses them they gain the memories and feelings of the person they were, meaning that the newly turned vampire thinks and feels like it is the person that was killed, when in the Buffyverse reality they are not and they are actually an amalgamation of all the darkest aspects of the person that was sired. The return of the soul is the return of the person who was killed, they now just have the memories of the soulless vampire and to them it is like they were not even in control of themselves, but they feel everything that they did.
Angel both with a soul and without one wanted a purpose in life. This is why what Angel’s father said to him about not making anything of himself cut him so deeply. Which is why Angelus was so focused on being the greatest most evil vampire of all time, he used his new found love of being evil as a way to find a purpose in life which is why he said to his father, “Looks like I have made something of myself”.
Regular ensouled Angel also was not only a hero out of guilt but because he saw doing good as his purpose in life, which is why he only started to do good for his love for humanity when he grew bonds with the other members of Angel Investigations. Through his friends he realized doing good wasn’t for some grand purpose but because it was the right thing to do, fighting for what he loved was what he did at the end of his series, even when he thought he would probably lose.
And Spike is a character both with and without a soul where you can see his goals clearly. Spike wants to have a nice fun life with the people who he loves. It is just when he doesn’t have a soul that his version of a fun life and love become twisted, purely selfish, and evil. With a soul he knows that in love you need to be selfless, and he also has guilt over the darkness within him like Angel, he just doesn’t let it consume his life like Angel does because Spike knows that when he was soulless he wasn’t in control, the demon who was an amalgamation of his dark side was.
That’s what I think the so called “possession” is, a demon who takes over your body who becomes an amalgamation of all the darkness within you. Angel and Spike’s guilt have to do with living with the fact that that darkness will always be in them.
Sorry for that comment going on a bit long, I had a lot of thoughts on this topic. I wonder if what i said makes sense.
This was really interesting! I'm developing a wildly imperfect theory that in buffyverse being vampyrisized would bring out your shadow self (based on jungs theories), I think this would explain especially Willows vamp self as well as why Harmony and Liam repeate their personalities to some extent both in human and vamp form, their shadow side was controlling them in both forms, though being more in control in vamp mode. To my interpetation not too different from your viewa. I'm still working on what would having a soul represent in this case, but thinking it around this shadow model would definitely bring fruitful context to why so many characters lose and gain their soul throughout the story and what is this trying to examine. Buffyverse is amazing and I doubt I'll ever get to a point where I'm through finding new layers and viewpoints
yea! vampirism bringing bout your shadow self seems very much the route the writers wanted to go with
When I first watched this video, I swear you took my own interpretation on the nature of vampires out of my head and made a video on it only in much more detail and better explained than I could ever hope to. While I always thought there were fair arguments for both sides of the soul canon debate, Angel's whole redemption arc loses meaning for me if it's the case of Angel feels guilty for what a demon who took over his corpse did for 150 years. Angel seems more tragic to me if it is the same person but one with a conscience versus one without. Top notch analysis.
Yea I always thought part of it is when Buffy says the thing about the demon and nothing of the original person remains, Angel says "Actually... " she glares at him, then he shuts up. So, to me that implied that the whole demon idea may not actually be 100% accurate, just what the slayers are taught. After all, what is the difference between a human and a demon? Demons don't have souls. So I always though it's not that a demon literally sets up shop, just that without a soul they become a demon, but that's not the slayer narrative.
Oh, I love this analysis. Watching these different analyses just makes me happy.
I absolutely love your buffyverse critique/ analysis. Really excellent, you cathartically explore some issues that really need to be discussed. Would love to see you discuss more on this world & characters!
I’ve just watched all your vids in this series. Thanks for the content. Agree with the stance you take on the demonic possession vs human dark side/ ID drive storyline contradiction - the buffyverse is about the emotional allegory which takes precedence over a logically consistent world.
exactly! and it's FAIR if that's frustrating to some people. but that's just the universe. take it or leave it, ya know
To me the truth about the nature of vampires always seemed somewhat in between the "demon with your memories and body" theory and the "corrupt version of yourself" idea. I think it's factually true, in universe, that vampirism is a demonic contamination that takes over your corpse, but not your soul (the seat of your moral identity). But I also think it's true that when your soul (or "a" soul, in Darla's case) is restored, your moral identity cannot but feel guilty for the corrupted use that the demon did of your identity (or better, of the darkest parts of your identity), and the corrupting influence it still exerts.
Buffy uses whats called a soft magic system basically to it’s extreme. The magic serves the story and the state of mind of those who use it or are from it.
Edit: also there was an episode where Angelus kind of debunk the demon vs the soul in the episode they had to deal with vampire Willow.
Willow couldn’t believe her vampire counterpart was a lesbian, and he told her something along the lines of vampirism brings out aspect about the person changed they keep hidden or are in the subconscious self. Then…they forget about that even though Willow indeed is a lesbian.😂🤷🏿♂️
One episode I always found interesting in the Angel/Angelus soul debate, is 'Spin The Bottle'. When the spell first hits, teenage Liam is similar to Angel in the kinda dorky vibe he gives off. After the gang realise he's a vampire and turn on him, he begins to show more Angelus-like traits. It lends to the soulless vampire being the human without constraints.
actually great point!
watched all your buffy videos and let me just say. love the absolute dedication to skirting around talking about spike. as someone who thinks spike is a very interesting character and loves sitting in rooms analyzing him but has thoughts on him that would definitely get me shot point blank on tumblr and whatnot, would genuinely would love to hear about that. love all the videos! you've put into words so many thoughts and feelings i've had but just been unable to vocalize. massive fan, keep up the good work!
i have no idea what you’re talking about ;)
but yea, i’ve been in ~fandom spaces~ perhaps a bit too long and know what they can be like. i certainly have thoughts across the buffyverse that i sometimes worry about voicing. maybe one day.
I always got the feeling, that turning into a vampire in the Buffyverse means the same thing like changing a little 🐁 into a 🦉. It doesn’t matter what the old memory’s are, soon the predator instincts are taking over and the mind is reflecting the new body. It’s interesting, that Vampire see all the crimes and killing they do as pranks, jokes and party 🎉. „Good and Evil is a point of view.“ 😏
I appreciate this alternate interpretation, even if I prefer The Passion of the Nerd’s take that that original person acts as a template for the newly born demon’s personality. Spike/Angel/Darla can talk about “me” at all times because they were an actual mixture of the human and demon.
to me, like i said, implying the existence of a Hyper Literal Demon a. undermines every single narrative, emotional, and thematic point of the show and b. is something the show never actually treats, in practice, as true.
i see it as a person infected by something demonic, that alters them and their physiology/morality/drive. but the purpose behind the show is to explore a person's "id," subconscious run rampant. which makes the most sense, and has the biggest emotional impact if we understand vampires as people infected and corrupted
The way I interpret it. The demon in Spike wants a soul, while the demon in Angel (Angelus) doesn't. So within Spike there are no competing wills. Angel struggles against his shadow, Spike integrates it.
i just don’t buy the “separate demon inside them,” since it directly undermines the show’s themes and thesis (and it’s never explored or taken seriously)
Absolutely will always love your Buffy takes, my favourite show to the end and its always incredible listening to the different viewpoints and concepts you bring to the universe.
If I may, I would like to explain a bit of my interpretation of the nature of vampires in the universe.
The demonic possession of vampirism is less a possession and more an infection. In one episode when they are explaining the exit of the old ones and original demons, they explain that vampires were the result of a demon biting and infecting a human on the way out. This human/demon hybrid then bit others and spread the infection.
So if its a demonic infection, rather than a specific demon inhabiting a vampire, its like demonic behaviour is a symptom of the disease. Soul removal is also another symptom.
Supernatural established soul removal as akin to demonic behaviour because it effectively makes a person a psychopath, they can have structure/rules/beliefs, but lack the morality or ethical or empathetic part of themselves and thereby their motivations are often cruel, destructive, or evil.
In the case of the Buffyverse, the infection removes the soul, and perverts the nature of the infected to add a demonic spice to who they already were. Along with that, they also acquire blood-lust which directs a large degree of their tendency to hunt and kill, much like a rabid dog is driven to bite in their demented state. Vampires can be driven mad by the desire for blood, human blood is even shown to be highly addictive. Once Angel begins consuming Conner's blood, Conner starts to smell like food and he experienced a further desire to harm him, and that is even WITH his soul.
Now on the specifics of the major vampires in the series. The Master Blood Theory suggests that Angel, Darla, Drucilla, and Spike, are a more elevated class of vampires both because they are of a direct Master lineage, and because of their longevity. In fact their longevity and cruelty and exceptional demonic natures may again be due to the fact that their demonic infection comes from such a pure and direct source, aka The Master. When Darla is trying to become a vampire again and is trying to get any scummy vampire to turn her, she is in fact turned by Drucilla again, which I feel was done to preserve her Master Blood infection. There are other vampires that have been made by those with Master Blood, for example the vampire played by Jeremy Renner in Angel, was sired BY Angel, and I feel that is why he was killed off in the show, they tend to want to preserve the main Master Blood vampires only.
So, how does Demonic Infection and each individual vampire's personalities come to be? Why is Angel so cruel and unsalvageable when a vampire, but Spike can evolve enough to WANT to get his soul back? To me, this is the result of each individuals specific traits prior to being turn.
Spike = passion. He was a poet obsessed by the idea of love. He was known for being a rapist, but also maintained one of the most faithful and adoring relationships through the show, with Drucilla, even despite her lack of loyalty and torment of him. The pain of being in love and betrayed was part of the allure for him, and violence and sadism were his passionate responses. This is why when muzzled by the chip through the course of Buffy, the inability to behave in a demonic nature effectively gave him a pseudo-soul. He, however, lacked the empathy and morality a soul provides, and this is why despite being able to love Buffy, he still resorted to his sadistic rapist behaviour when she refused him - this is not evidence that Spike is worse than Angel by the way, its evidence the demonic infection still influences how he views behaviour. If it were Drucilla, raping and abusing her WOULD be how he would win his lover back, because her perverted demonic behavour would respond to that. It is in realising that harming Buffy like that means his chip is not the same as a soul, that he is driven to get a soul. Being driven by passion, with or without a demon, is close to being driven by love. Love is a very strong motivator and thereby his evolution during his time with the chip motivated his ability to reason he needs a soul to properly love again. The poet fought the demon and won.
Darla was a woman of the night, a prostitute, in a very terrible time where men controlled everything. Its pretty clear that Darla is motivated by power, control, and manipulation. She is very skilled at getting others to do what she needs and wants, her cruelty comes from a place of power. She made herself powerful as a prostitute, and that is why her personality is much the same as a vampire, she likely was capable of doing some terrible things and shutting down the bad feelings when she had to do them because of the awful nature of her human existence. Becoming a vampire, freed her from trauma essentially.
Druicilla was religious and psychic, becoming infected with the demonic virus perverted her religious nature and she turned from piety to frivolity. Drucilla is a complicated case as she was so severely traumatized by Angel prior to turning that her motivations are never going to be clear, she is insane. As a vampire that insanity simply makes her interesting, shes like a dangerous breeze, flitting in and out of lives. No real plan or motivation. Simply following her visions and her hunger. Her torment is so great even as a vampire, that her one plan she does openly concoct, was total existence destruction. Drucilla wants pain, because shes is always in pain.
Finally Angel. Angel was what we call a "Choch" or a thug. He was a drunk, he was a lech. He had no drive, had no passions, but he did have a conflict with his father. When he was turned to a vampire, and the reason I believe he is the worst of them when demonic, is completely this lack of personality he had prior. Becoming a vampire, a demon, WAS his personality. His cruelty and his pure evil nature as a demon was because the infection got into him and there was literally nothing left to anchor him to his human side. Spike had his passionate nature to guide him toward humanity again, Angel became his true self as a vampire. Once Angel is ensouled again, it is ONLY the torment of having a conscience again that drives him to the so called Hero that we watch in Buffy. He is changed by the trauma of having to first hand experience the guilt of what he did under the demonic influence of his infection. I liken this to when someone is severely ill, especially with chronic pain, some people are driven to cruelty because they are suffering so badly. It isn't them, its the pain. Some people become abusive and cruel when suffering in that state. Angel suffered a heavy dose of demonic infection without any kind of formed sense of self to anchor him so he gave himself over to it fully. Once ensouled he has to really look at who he was and what he did, and it took him nearly 60 plus years to become the character we know in the show.
Not to make this a Angel vs Spike argument, but this narrative is why I am pro Spike and not pro Angel. Spike came to love adult Buffy even without a soul, because he is driven by passion, and it is in hurting her he is driven to get his soul. I have a feeling if given the option to be human again, Spike would take it as well. Whereas Angel, his entire identity revolves around being a vampire. He is healed in Angel, and chooses to (WITHOUT CONSENT) remove Buffy's memories of their time together, by resetting time, all so he can stay a vampire. He chooses vampirism and heroism over Buffy. The ego of that I just cannot. As though he is the only one who can save the world when Buffy is over here handling it. He doesn't even participate in the battle against the First. HE STARTS WORKING FOR HELL BASICALLY. Anyway anyway. I feel the demonic infection is as much a part of Angel as his DNA at this point. That is why once his conscience is removed, he instantly reverts to his sadism. I think he even still loves Buffy in his vampire state, much like he loves Drucilla, but for Angel, love is obsession. He shows his devotion by being disgusting.
Anyway that was lengthy, thank you to anyone who actually read through all of that. I love this show so much and I spend wayyy too much time thinking about it, rewatching it, and watching videos people make about it. There is so much more I could say but this is a youtube comment, and its already way too long.
Be well!
tl;dr
Vampirism in Buffy is a demonic infection, not a demonic possession, and the symptoms of the disease are demonic behaviours and tendencies as well as the removal of a soul which is akin to losing empathy/morality/conscience. Each individual vampire's human selves prior to turning influences the demonic behaviours while infected.
i agree, in the text it works more like an infection. especially because of the philosophical point they were trying to explore: the dark "unconscious" running rampant, now also with a changed physiology that says humans = food
@@5x5Takes Absolutely!! Thanks for another great video and great take.
I like to think of it this way: The soul leaving vestiges of itself upon turning & the part of the demon, I view it as a piece of the soul of the Old One who created vampires, bonds with the remnants of the human soul so when the soul is restored part of it actually did the crimes of the vampire thus the resouled owning the acts done.
Illyria is a good example when Illyria took over Fred body she said they're were left back electrical spasms that became Fred's memories allow Illyria to look over Fred's life even act like her if needed.
Despite Fred's soul was destoryed by Illyria essence. Later in the canonical comics after Illyria death and the new magics restored to the world . Illyria being an old one brought herself back and Fred was soul came back dude to the new magic and new system created.
Fred had all her memories but was able to access all the memories of Illyria as well.
It could also be said for Xander when he had the hyena spirit he could still or when he became the soldier he was basically possessed and had all theyre memories of wat he did when possessed even the soldiers memories.
The Illyria and Xander examples are closer to what vampires probably experience.
While oz and other werewolves are buried under the animal instinct forgetting what they did. But I do recall once they learn to control the wolf they do retain they're memories.
The idea of sombody losing their soul has existed for a long time, an interesting fact is that in old nordic European folklore that used too mean that somebody became tired, withdrawn and sad. So more an explanation for why people are depressed. This shifted later, i think in like the 18 or 19 century too it becoming more of a thing for psykopats.
As a Catholic, I grew up being taught that souls and bodies are a package deal and one can't separate a soul from a body. I always saw the vampire lore as essentially the "soul" getting corrupted by sin taken to an extreme degree. Some Buffy fans speculated that Drusilla turning Spike had a factor in why he was different from other vampires.
I always felt like Darla, Angel, Drusilla, and Spike always retained an essence of who they were. Darla was already corrupted as a human since it's implied she's a sex worker and was dying of tuberculosis. She was already jaded and cynical. Angel as a human was a scoundrel and being a demon amplified that. William embraced being a vampire to protect the softer side of him.
I love the nuanced take on the nature of being a vampire. Great video!
Its quite interesting, I love this show, the foreshadowing is amazing. my take on the soul being taken and a demon taking over, is pretty similar to this, its easier for people to say the person is evil than the person is just a person gone bad. saying they are evil is like saying a force has taken them over, we do this in real life, I believe that we all have a persona the "ID" if you will, some part of us that fights to get out, but like a vulcan (if you will) we are trained to keep it under control. When I look at certain people sometimes I see them as a type of animal, not only the way they look but the way they behave. My mum passed with dementia, and before she did, she could become so nasty and quite violent. You could say that is was some force taking over her, but I see it as a "Filter" being lifted and the inner person who she always was came out.
This show really does show human nature. for its good and bad.
Ive always assumed in regards to the vampires in this show and the soul is that the soul acts like a buffer or an inhibitor chip that suppresses the drive vampires and demons seem to have to just take what they want. The demon simply bypasses the control the human would normally have and in return, they actually get to live the life the human it's in got to have, much like Venom and Eddie. Yes, the symbiote could live it's own life but it simply drives the host to just say, sod it and just go ham and enjoy being bad because who is gonna stop it? Other vampires? Maybe. Humans? Not likely. It's only like one slayer for the longest time that were out killing the vampire menace. That the demon isn't actually behind the wheel of the body, it simply burns out the existing soul and powers the meat suit. Then if the soul is restored, the soul burns out the demon making the body feel remorse and sorrow for said actions.
I don't know who does these video's, But I really like her brain. I love the way she thinks. Her deep dives are fun to listen to.
I like Holden Webster explanation: "Feels great. Strong. Like I'm connected to a powerful all-consuming evil that's gonna suck the world into a fiery oblivion"
In the season when we see Angelas and the Demon that cannot be killed by Any weapon (the one Buffy blows up with a bazooka, )he senses humanity in Dur and spike but not Angelas hinting at the fact that some vampires can hold on to some positive emotion that are left behind from their souls
I always thought that, in the Buffy verse, demons take up shop in your old body. Yes, the soul, the essence of the person before becoming a vampire is gone but the mind is still intact that holds your memories hence how the demon can manipulate the memories and those around them. Like Liam, angel, did in his early days. But I also think the demon accesses and awakes the darker side of the person, like Darla for instance or Spike. Both make a case for the demon making them darker more dangerous.
I love your post, and that it is your opinion. But in my humble opinion you missed the point. It's not a question of is it a demon possession or the human. It's both at the same time. It's not some random demon. It's the same one. Every single vampire is always the same demon. Or more accurately a small part of one. That's the point of the lore about where vampires come from. The demon fed on a person and then left. Leaving some small part in the person. Not enough to be conscious. Not enough to have its own wants and desires and thoughts. Just enough to reanimate the dead body. Give it the powers of a vampire. Give it the hunger to feed. So it can grow and spread. On the same level a virus would. But that means the little bit of the demon doesn't have any thoughts or ability to think and plan. No problem because that body comes with all the personality and memories of the person handily encoded in the biology of the brain of the host. Plus, with the soul gone, none of those pesky little morals or conscience to get in the way. Almost everything that makes up who a person is, is still there in their brain. So who the person was when they were alive will always make who the vampire is. And when they get their soul back, none of that goes away. They remember everything for the same reason they did when they became a vampire. It's all encoded in their brain. They just have their remorse and conscience back to make life fun. You dismissed the watchers stores because it seems too convenient. But that isn't a real reason for it to be untrue. Again it falls somewhere in the middle. Is it that vampire, your friend doing all those horrible things. Yes and no. Would they have ever done any of those things if they haven't become a vampire, probably not. The way they did those things was probably heavily influenced by who they were so some other vampire might have done them very differently. In the end it reminds me of the transport problem from Star Trek. Does the transporter move you from one place to another. Or does it kill you and make a new person with your memories and that thinks it's you at the new location. Does it even matter. In the end it comes down to, do you have a soul. Thankfully, in the Buffy universe that seems to have been answered. Although I doubt that brings much comfort to the vampires with a soul. Not only can they remember everything they did without a soul but every emotion of how much they enjoyed doing it.
the text treats it like a person transformed, and robbed of conscience. so that’s how i do too
@@5x5Takes nope. The lore is the lore and we oftwn try to put an amalytical psych spin on it. It doesnt that way. There are several things you choose to ignore in the series becausw by season 5, the demon inside thing is still true. Its cut and dry bur also in the middle. Yes they have a literal entity in them . The comics confirm this as well as the origin of the vampire.
@@swagsukeuchiha7599 we see it differently, and that’s ok! at the end of the day we both enjoy a really cool show :)
I absolutely love the costume for vamps I think the designers on Buffy absolutely nailed it. The idea that a menacing bat like demon coming out in feeding or anger is sinister. I always pictured a unseen hell dimension where demons line up and get called to enter dead victims killed by vamps male or female doesn't matter. I wonder when dusted do they go to hell dragon ball z style or just completly dissapear on the atomic level??
Another amazing video! As much as I've been loving the crazy ex girlfriend videos, I have missed seeing your buffy analysis!
you know, while listening to your explanation it started to heavily remind me of the audio drama wolf 359. without going too much into spoilers, it's a sci fi series where at one point a major plot point is the existence of an alien race who can create perfect duplicates of people, with the same memories, same conviction that they are the original, etc. It's interesting because much like the buffyverse vampires, there's a kind of tension between the duplicates being literally separate entities within the show's universe, while also being presented by the narrative as having continuity with the original people they were cloned from. It ends up using this concept to explore ideas about identity and how it can change over time in a really interesting way!
Your video essays are phenomenal
10:18 That is how angelus frames it because he has access to the body memories. In a sense they are his memories. It can be very confusing. For instance you can have a dream in which you do some atrocious thing and then you wake up and you are unsure if is real or not. As a note the demon that still is inside the body has every reason to convince the human that the actions belong to it not the demon. If it cannot control the body at least the demon tries to manipulate the human.
I mean this with utmost respect & compassion...Darla for me has always felt like an allegory for addiction
I think you maybe are misunderstanding certain aspects of vampires. They don't get "amnesia" the demon doesn't have a personality or memories to begin with or at least not in terms of what humans identify as ones. Anytime we see a vampire without a human i.e. Angel in Pylea which I don't agree with your analysis that that is an "animalistic" version of Angel. Wesley makes it clear that is THE demon it's just a monster driven by instinct. It's only because of being bonded to Liam and his personality and memories do you get Angelus. When they're not possessing a human body they're presumably in what ever dimension they were banished to before humans took over.
yea! it's the demon in animalistic form
God I miss this show great to see people are still interested in it. What I don't understand is spoke mentioned punching his way out of his coffin. Yet most vampires like when he sired his mother turned straight away yet we see buffy dusting vampires getting out of the ground
if it’s an inconsistency, it’s not unheard of in buffy!
For me, the vampire/ensouled problem of identity is best understood through the lens of moral responsibility, not necessarily in a strict, normative sense - although that does play a role. How we come to terms with our darkest impulses, how we contend with the problems of intimacy, empathy, cruelty etc.
Id stuff.
The one that stayed with me was from "Angel" S2.
Darla: "That wasn't Angel. It wasn't Angelus. I don't know who that was"
*spine tingle intensifies*
absolutely.
What I always found confusing was the characters reaction to Angel shortly after he regained his soul in season 3. They knew full well Angel and Angelus were two separate personalities in one body but they still barring Buffy held extreme cold bitterness towards Angel because they believed he was responsible for Angelus's actions even though they know and understand Angelus is a separate and far more malevolent entity from Angel with little to no desire or ability to consider the morality of his actions
I will have to look at your other video in regards to things you think regards to souls in Buffy. And its been a while since I've watched the show.
But when it comes to Ensouled Vampires they do exist still with the "demon" and that would still fundamentally make it a "I" for any past actions over anything else. But I don't entirely buy that Vamp-Person and human-Person are different people from the text of the show because of the reasons you pointed out.
I always took it as Vampires are everything bit the person that they were. They're the memories, the personality, the feelings. The soul isn't the mind, it isn't even the existence of the person they were that's all in the body. No, the soul is just the conscience.
And that's why Darla would desire that state, the state of not caring on top of not dying. Because she was that Vampire, she experienced that life and made every choice. Giving Angelus a soul wouldn't be much of a punishment if you were punishing the Rando-Liam by putting into a body where he'd done nothing wrong.
Liam was, and still is, a vampire. Just now he has a soul to feel bad for the people he'd hurt.
If it wasn't for the obvious body changes, I would say the only real difference between a human and a vampire version of a person is just conscience. And this is actually kept when we see that one child without a soul. They didn't have a conscience, hell the demon possessing them if I recall correctly had more of a moral center than the boy themselves.
I never took the demon aspect as literal. A scene I was surprised you didn't comment on was when Spike talked about turning Dru. The fact that he made an explicit point to drive her insane BEFORE turning her and then that insanity continued on in her vampire form. I never considered the idea that the "demon" aspects were Watcher propaganda for want of a better term but it tracks and also makes sense for the reasons you stated and given slayers are teenaged girls more often then not you want to give teens as "Good and Evil" a view point as possible.
Giles and Buffy hang onto that ignoring evidence to the contrary because it helps them sleep at night. At the end of the day vampires still need to be fought regardless of if they're friends or not, which is why Spike and Angel still choose to use that language once they ally with the Scoobies.
i presume you mean angel turning dru, and good addition.
3:30 Is not a deal. Is like stealing a deserted car. The soul does not go to aether, it goes to heaven or hell or whatever place it goes in Buffy universe.
To my mind, the central question here is the central question of identity: what makes the person typing this comment the same person who pressed play on the video less than half an hour ago? There are several possibilities, and depending which of them (singly or in combination) you take as necessary or sufficient to establish shared identity between two entity-instants, you might agree with the demon-replaces-original narrative, or might agree with the corrupted-version take.
You could look at the body - the sack of meat that carries me around, but the Buffyverse has clear examples of people swapping bodies, and in normal life we generally don't consider, say, losing a leg to make someone a different person (except as we might describe anyone who has gone through a traumatic experience as being a different person).
You could argue for the brain - while removing other body parts doesn't automatically change who you are, neurological diseases and brain injuries are often described as making someone a different person. Though, again, the Buffyverse which allows people to swap bodies, including brains, or to exist separately from their physical body, including the brain, pretty clearly puts your self as something that can be independent of your brain tissue, or any other purely physical objects.
Which brings us to more abstract elements. You can argue that it's the personality that identifies the individual - the descriptions of being a different person that I mentioned above seem to be referring to this: someone with the same body but different personality is perceived as a different person. Superman and Clark Kent. Jekyll and Hyde. The patient father and the terrifying drunk. In this interpretation, the vampire and the human are (usually - Harmony is a weird case) sufficiently different to be counted as different people by those around them, providing a grain of truth to the Watchers' dogma.
Then there's the question of shared memory - Angel remembers all of Angelus' actions and decisions from a first-person perspective. In the memories, it's always "I did that" not "he did that". Subjectively, remembering being someone is a pretty compelling argument that you were that person, to the point where if two people swapped all their memories, even if their personalities were closer to those of their bodies than those of their memories, I wouldn't argue if they said they were the person they remember being rather than the person whose body they have (though I might not be entirely convinced either). Under this criterion, Buffyverse vampires are the same people as their human antecedents.
One traditional answer is that the seat of identity is the soul, but the Buffyverse soul doesn't fit this definition of soul - what the Buffyverse soul is is a tricky question, because it seems like it's nothing more than a conscience - something that makes you feel bad about making other people feel bad - and not really part of your identity. On the other hand, the same seems to apply to the actual demon involved in becoming a vampire - there's no question that there is a demonic side to vampires: the enhanced strength, the altered appearance, the inability to cross the threshold of a home without being invited by someone qualified - but that demon appears to be less a literal conscious entity with its own personality and desires, and more an influence. Possibly the demon is no more than power which, particularly in the absence of strong principles, is notorious for corrupting.
So, is a vampire the same person as the human that got bitten? Possibly. They share memories, and some personality traits, but they also lack key elements of the original's personality. They think they're the same person, but they act like a different one. What your answer to the question is will depend on what you think is more important.
"One traditional answer is that the seat of identity is the soul, but the Buffyverse soul doesn't fit this definition of soul ... not really part of your identity"
I don't agree on this part. They do blur lines when it comes to identity, and they make your soul the seat of your moral conscience as well. But definitely Buffy's soul, retrieved from a heaven by Willow, was also Buffy herself. She even retained memories of her heaven upon coming back. Not only was it PART of her identity, it WAS her very identity.
In the Buffyverse, it seems that your identity is also your moral identity. Which makes some sense: the choices you make determine who you are and what kind of person you are.
(In real life, it would be awful of course if that identity could be stripped away by a random demon and then put back in place by some magic, only to burden you with moral responsibility for actions that you didn't choose. But that's where the show is more about metaphors than realism.)
@@andreab380 That may hold true for Buffy, but it doesn't for Angel or Spike.
I'm tempted to suggest that there are two different things being called souls here.
@@rmsgrey I don't see a reason to posit two different types of "soul" only because there are some seeming contradictions.
Although it's certainly a reason to say that the lines between "seat of identity" and "just moral conscience" become blurred.
Btw, the spell that retrieves Angel's soul takes it from "the ether", whatever that is. Buffy's soul was taken from another dimension.
Maybe the souls of humans that become vampires are just denied an afterlife as long as the vampire lives, and they just float around in the ether, without building additional memories.
To make things interesting, we can add Darla's case. When W&H resurrected her, she had no memories of her afterlife at all. It seems that souls do not always retain their afterlife memories.
@@andreab380 Another possibility is that, rather than Buffy's memories of heaven coming from a time while she was dead, with soul and body separate, they came from while she was passing through the rift on her way to the ground...
If you take Buffy's memories of heaven at face value, that leaves you with two properties; conscience, and memory. Of the two, conscience is always associated with soul on the show, while memory/identity is only sometimes associated with the soul, which, to me, suggests that memory is not a function of the soul per se, but of something that can be, but isn't automatically, linked with the soul. If the soul truly were the seat of memory and identity, that would imply that anything that removes the soul but leaves a functioning personality with memories behind not only removes the soul, but also clones a part of it to carry the memories, and that re-ensouling rituals copy all the new memories back onto the incoming soul.
There's also the case of Ryan Anderson - the human born without a soul (Angel 1x10 _I've Got You Under My Skin_ ) who clearly had memories and identity despite having no soul (stated) and no conscience (demonstrated).
@@rmsgrey I do take Buffy's memory at face value, because there was no instance where they were questioned in the show.
In the show, heavenly dimensions seem to be about peace and resolution: Buffy had found it, so she experienced total peace while explicitly preserving a sense of self ("Nothing had form. But I was still me, you know?")
They do separate that moral sense of self, the one that needs moral completion (heaven) or gets tormented by guilt (hell) from memories, I agree.
And they also separate it from "being alive as one specific being". They also do say in the hyenas episode that animals do have their own spiritual essence, which actually made Xander pretty feral and amoral. So maybe Ryan could live thanks to that. Maybe he had a kind of basic animal identity like that, but no "moral identity", a sense of self that needs to reach some endpoint of goodness and is flawed (and torments itself) if it fails to do so.
That said, I do honestly believe that they use "soul" a bit arbitrarily in the show, so they swing between meanings and more often than not focus on "conscience" rather than "self". I just think the two can be made to be compatible, and I kind of enjoy trying. :)
Fun fact: The comics clarify this, the demon essence "taking shop" is basically replacing the human soul lost and basically is amplifying certain parts of the person's personality once it takes root. I.e. It's specifically a spiritual thing, not a mental one. If I had to guess, the reason why Liam/Angelus and Spikes Mom could change so dramatically compared to Spike or Darla is because Liam and Spike's Mom were... Well, husks as people. Spikes Mom bc she was clearly already on the way out anyway, and Liam bc he was a prodigal bum. William and Darla though as people had stronger senses of self and identity, so there was a LOT less blanks for that demonic energy to fill in.
that’s always what i chalked it up to as well!
I interpret it as the process changes someone into a demon, not like a specific demon named Bob is now inside Angel. When they get their soul back, they are still demons but the soul is in control of the actions.
agreed!
I always looked at it like this.
The vampire is essentially just a piece of the old one that made it.. like a slight part of its subconscious brought into the conscious mind and memories of the mortal transformed.
This is the purest form of the vampire.. the old one named as their father.
Angelus is unique however.. his lineage is of the masters and the master is a first generation vampire created by a different old one. And the hedonistic and debaucherous mind and experiences if Liam, made the mortal already a misanthrope.. and ridden with existential nihilism.. except it was pointed inward, manifested as a self destructive urge to indulge.
Having been made into a third generation vampire, he is now remade with less diluted blood of an old one, with a misanthropic streak of a mortal manifested as hedonistic indulgence Which to demons can only be satisfied with wanton destruction and torment of all things living.. because eventually.. if he is so inclined, he might incarnate the old one with the small piece he houses inside of him.. as old ones are able to do..
It isn't just ANY demon setting up shop.. it is THE demon, or a piece of it.. diluted throughout the generations.. the earlier generation it is.. the more demonic the vampire is ultimately in it's behavior.
Also that means the manifested demon is also stronger. Which makes season 2 possession thing clearer because if s lesser demon tries to occupy a vessel housing a piece of an old one.. it will get wrecked.. which is what happened. Obviously.
This also explains why vampires that have regained the soul still say it was them when recounting their past.. because they can remember themselves enjoying their evil actions.. and the resulting cognitive dissonance and the horror of it traumatizes them.. because every human being has a shadow side.. every impulse has some darker side to it, which is why the vampire ensouled cannot and will not make the proper distinction between its past self and current self.. because, to it.. it is virtually the same thing.. the demonic vestige shares the same experience and thoughts, only it reflects them in the negative aspect of the shadow.. where as the soul, reflects it as the super ego and attempts to reject the shadow.. this is the time of the conflict and the resolution is when the vampire reemerges from the period of near catatonic trauma if being reincorporated into the memories and awareness of the demon. After which, the demon is pushed into the shadow again.. because it is not incarnated, it can only guide the shadow of the individual until it is able to.. like in the case of dracula becoming an old one in the comics.. he incarnated through him..
Here is the core idea I take from the Buffyverse: There are several episodes of both Buffy and Angel where a villain talks about power and how great power is. The vampires and the villains in general represent people who are focused on dominating and controlling others just for the sake of it. To be the Slayer, or in Angels case The Champion, is to devote your life to serving others just for the sake of it. Without wanting to preach, Buffy and Angel guided my journey towards Christian faith.
I pretty much agree! The only place where I differ is that I think there is a literal demon involved at some point in the process. In my view, the demon is created during the vampiric transformation, and it’s exerting more control over the vampire’s decisions while the soul is gone. It’s sort of like the devil on the shoulder telling you what to do, but without an angel (no pun intended lol) to counter it. I’m basing that mainly off of the way Angelus talks about being trapped in Angel’s body, unable to exert his will, in Angel s4, the appearance of Angel’s demon form in Pylea, and the idea of Angel making use of his demon to fight possession in Buffy s1. There’s some kind of demonic presence living in Angel’s body, but there’s still a continuity of experience and a sense that Angel’s own inner darkness led to his actions as Angelus
angelus and his "separate consciousness" we see in s4 is a product of the paradoxical double ship of theseus of angel's soul going back and forth. i linked the video in which i talk about it.
as for angel's season 2 demon that fights in the dark age, which i reference in this video, that's an exception that is never used again. taking the demon presence literally undermines the entire emotional and thematic world built by the text. do i wish they simply were consistent from the get go? yes. but it is what it is
Sure! I’m just expressing a slightly different theory, as we were invited to do at the end of the video! I think ultimately it’s a similar idea, just more of a “why not both?” idea when it comes to the question of if a demon is involved or not
i dig!
As someone who pretty definitely don't believe in "souls" IRL, this explanation was always the most reasonable one to me. It fits the themes of the show, it gives depth to the relationships and meaning to the vampire characters. It absolutely makes sense that the Council would want an explanation that allows for easy, guilt-free slayage and they are absolutely unreliable.
That this means Buffy was groomed to be a child soldier from a young age, killing hundreds if not thousands of actual human beings… that's just icing on the cake, really. Every single idiot vampire who spent two seconds on screen before getting dusted by Mr. Pointy? A real life (unlife) human being with thoughts and dreams and memories.
So yeah. Our memories are pretty much who we are. Add basic personality, the thing that doesn't really seem to change when someone turns, it pretty much adds up to a complete person. "Soul" or no.
Excellent informative content
Loved your thoughtful takes
Thank you for the librum incendere at the end.
anytime
Interesting video, I feel like it overlooks a thing or two.
Like with Darla she says, "I was Darla for so long.", basically her four centuries as a vampire completely dwarf her few decades as a human and so naturally dominate her personality.
I also think the assumed intent of the theoretical demon when it is assumed to be sapient, is a bit of a logical hole; you even point out the animalistic state when in Pylea. If I wanted to stretch a bit I could say that the souled person feels the guilt simply because they remember performing the evil actions, like the demon remembers the human's life; with nothing else to go on.
And the thing about the Watcher's council assuming/lying; there is magic in this universe, so it wouldn't be too radical of a thought that someone capable of checking would have gone out of their way to confirm or correct the assumption and no one ever contradicts the stated lore.
The soul thing is so confusing in the Buffyverse and the in universe explanation for what a vampire is or does didn't make sense either.
Personally I think that once you're turn a demon does move in your body BUT the human doesn't live. It's not just a demon using the body is like a mix (in my opinion)
I think that the age of the vampire also affects, like of you are fledge maybe the demon has much more control and the human part isn't usually strong enough to be the one driving.
I also believe that who you are as a human, who sired you or who teaches you (Darla wanted Angelus to be very violent and right after he clawed his way out of the grave she was asking who he wanted to kill)
They are definitly more violent than humans but there are still a lot of factors to consider. They are capable of love too but they're empathy towards most people is usually non existent
i very much agree with ur interpretation. It seems that especially spike also calls himself a demon, without a soul, because thats how he felt and acted. Not that they get taken over by a demon, but that with no soul you act evil or demonic. the way its worded can also kinda be mirrored in real life when trans people joke that they "killed" their former self
There was that one episode of Angel where we get to see inside his head. Iirc, Angelus makes a comment about how much he hates being trapped inside of Angel, able only to watch as Angel whines and mopes.
The way I understand it is that possession is the official lore but, like you noted, it's less compelling. So, the writers ignored it whenever they wanted, which was more often than not.
Oh, and in the comics, at one point there's no magic. This prevents the possession and it turns out that without a demon, Buffy-verse vampires are virus zombies like in the Walking Dead and such.
I think that the best analogy would be to say that a body is like a Tesla. So the driver is usually in control and makes good decisions, follows traffic laws, and has a basic understanding of what their destination is and how to get there. Then the driver gets taken out by something and has to rely on auto drive, so they’re still in the drivers seat following along, but once the auto drive is on it won’t ever turn back off.
Now that the driver is asleep at the wheel or in a stupor watching it all unfold, the auto drive proves to be a murder machine, purposefully running over as many pedestrians as it can. It ignores the destination and just goes off on a joyride, breaking all traffic laws and crashing into other cars as it sees fit. Same car, worse driver.
Angellus is basically Angel with his humanity off. Like Stefan in Vampire Diaries when he flips his humanity switch he becomes a ripper. Just like Angellus, he is cruel and when he comes to his senses and regains his humanity/soul the guilt is so much to bare. I think Buffy is the same concept as the demon stuff.
Not really.
As I recall: the soul *leaves the body*, which is then inhabited or animated by a literal demon from the Hellmouth. It has the memories of the departed soul, probably so it can mimic the person and get a few easy meals off their friends and family (being invited in, etc.).
The reason Sunnydale has sooooo many f-----g vampires is it sits atop said Hellmouth.
As for Angel: "Angel" is the soul/person, while "Angelus" is the demon inside of him/his body.
As for "who I was, what I did" the demon is just "the demon version" of the former person with *continuity of memory* .
But the other side of this is that the demons can be humanized by their experience s, as happens to Spike.
The way they talk about it also kinda sounds like the accounts of ppl who escaped cults and hate-groups etc, when they describe themselves as they were when they were brainwashed, looking back at what they believed and how they acted, the sense of shame and guilt.
The inconsistency in the Buffyverse regarding vampirism is actually quite fascinating. The "demon takes your soul" superstition speaks to a kind of political, militaristic washing over the more likely reality that vampires are still themselves, arguably even more so, as they lack the checks and balances humans possess to dissuade them from acting on the most primal urges. In this sense, the argument could be made, like a drunk, that vampires are actually the most themselves they may ever be, whether they want to be or not. I agree with you in that instilling this mentality in the forces of good simplifies the course of battle and on paper makes vampires easier to dispatch.
aspect having the meaning of part or feature of something, in episode 18 of season 3 the aspect of the demon in this episode would the something be the demon? even though the demon is half human?
I think about it like this.
You have a soul attached to you. Vampires kill you and remove that soul and allow/force a demon to attach itself to you it is still you just where the soul exaggerates different aspects of your personhood. Attaching a soul to a vampire suppresses the demonic urges. Just like in humans our personality and mood can be changed in thw moment by chemical balances in the brain , the vampire and soul just change who we are
Great breakdown. Love these videos
2:34 is it just when they become a vampire, like with the brow ridges or is it you become a vampire and your soul is gone? I’m guessing it’s the latter.
Being a Risen/Lightbearer/Guardian from Destiny would (arguably) be the best version of immortality, followed closely by being a Perpetual from Warhammer 40k and followed further off as an immortal from the Highlander series.
But guardians get super powers that by using them breaks the laws of the universe.
2:45 it does not change your DNA. It just changes the body in some ways. You have the teeth, the contorted face and that is about it. The rest is the effect of being possessed by a demon. Also blood from the victims is used to repair damage to the dead body. Since the body is already dead it cannot produce new cells so it uses cells from the victims to replenish its own. As a note in most older myths vampyres not only consume the blood but sometimes also the flesh of the victims. Think of blood like superglue for the dead body and consuming flesh actually replaced body parts.
this is a great video thank you!
Devoid of conscience (moral) driven by strong impulse (bloodlust) yet still quite intelligent (feral but socially capable if needed) kind of Serial killer like (the ones smart enough to get away with enough murder to qualify as such) as well as a remarkable inclination for theatrics, no in-universe explanation for that I would guess.
Perfect for television...
"Your soul leaves..and goes to the ether." Lol
While a evil demon may take over the hosts body with memories and stuff like that to feed off the evil the Humans may of had beneath the surface not all had the same level of evil with them some were pure evil, others chaotic evil, some neutral evil, some productive evil, some rebellious evil, some pragmatic evil, while most vampires were evil to some level some where lesser then others Harmony seemed to be more pragmatic evil as in which side could benifit her more with money, a contract, or award of a sort, some vamps choose to co exist with Humans not out of kindness but to fear and paranoia of drawing attention to themselves from mobs, councils, or slayers or because they have a obsession for a certain Human or a certain group of Humans and want to do petty evil things to others that way there would be less of a chance that the Human or Humans would want to avoid them yeah.
I think you really nailed it down with this Video!/ Another great example that you didn’t mention was when Spike lost his memory’s due to spell in season 6: if Vampires where truly just Demons with the memories of the dead body they inhabit Spike would have just gone wild and killed everyone in the room!
great point!!!
So on the subject of metaphors I can agree with you, but the demon-setting-up-shop scenario I can also agree with. See, if a human is killed and becomes a vampire, the demonic entity still has the same brain wrinkles the human did, and thus contains the human's memories. But you're working based on the assumption that the demonic entity was preexisting and had its own memories already rather than created for that body like a baby being born. It would be born into that body with no demonic memories because it didn't exist before it was created in the moment the magic resurrected and reanimated the body. But it would also have a bloodlust due to its need for blood to survive and stay strong and no conscious to keep it from hurting people to survive. Also the awakening is particularly disorienting, especially if it had to break itself free from its own grave. And if there wasn't an older vampire to guide it, to give it direction, then, like a human, it would essentially be feral, taking decades to learn what someone with a teacher would learn in months and years.
When the soul is returned to the body, it is disoriented like both Spike and Angel were, but they have physical memories of the things the demons had done as if they had done it themselves. That's because, in essence, they did. Their bodies were used to do it and their brains remember it. In your example of Angel not feeling guilt over what the body-switcher did with his body, that's explainable as Angel was aware of the shift and didn't regain the treacherous memories when he got his body back.
Now, that incident could ALSO be interpreted in so many ways, as in if they switched physical bodies, then how'd they not lose their memories and gain each other's, therefore rendering such a switch meaningless? I would have to guess that whatever magic facilitated the switch also transfered their memories, which are inarguably physical (brain wrinkles and electric writing like in hard drives.)
But on an ensouled vampire losing his (or her) soul again, Spike had been previously restrained by the behavioral modification chip and so he couldn't act on his hatred of Buffy. But it's said there's a fine line between love and hate. Also, Drusilla also said "vampires are capable of loving someone, if not loving wisely." If Spike had lost his soul after losing the inhibitor chip, he might well have been the same as before he got his soul back, albeit through conditioning. Angelus was, however, imprisoned by Angel's soul. He was essentially a second-hand participant in what Angel did. Like most prisoners, his time hardened him and whatever was left of his humanity when he first turned was burned out of him while he was helpless in the back of Angel's existence of feeding off vermin.
In conclusion. the returning soul will remember and internalize everything their demon did, and regardless of their ability to control it (or not) from the hereafter, it would weigh heavily on them. In the case of Angel, his curse amplified his guilt and that's why he took longer than Spike did in regaining his humanity and sanity. It certainly helps that Spike had people to at least pseudo look after him, even if reluctantly.
There is a lot of merit in the rest of what you say about the metaphors, especially given in a recent interview Sarah Gellar, explaining why she wouldn't want to revive the Buffy series but would be okay with a continuance, said that Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a metaphor about the horrors of adolescence.
Found a youtube article by E! News recounting her interview.
th-cam.com/video/MFjhbmoGPnc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=DIqLHuYciSqF5Agl
like i said, to me it’s a bit of an empty exercise because it’s never actually an idea carried through seriously-and most importantly, it breaks the meaning of the show. buffy puts us in a position where either the philosophy, OR the lore can be coherent. for me, that choice is a no brainer
I think you're missing two important points in your analysis - Anya's description of how the first vampire was made, and the totality of what a person is.
When they were discussing the ascension of the Mayor in Graduation Day part 1, Anya said that a true demon bit a human and infected them with its essence, thus creating the first vampire. That would make vampirism a demonic infection that expells the soul and infests the body rather than a possession where the soul is still
yea, the text itself is inconsistent in that regard. i see it as a demonic infection, despite the occasional references to possession
You touch on some interesting philosophical points. I wish we would have gotten to them a little bit more on here.
i agree. i’m making a short follow up video to go deeper :)
I believe the soul never truly departs, but is almost in a state of limbo. This makes all the worst parts one one's self come out, and also magnifies.the worst part of one self.
Being a vampire is almost like a metaphor to. Being drink. You tell the unfiltered truth, without any emoathy or sorrow, but in an extremely vicious way.
When the soul 'returns' or awakens, that is why the host always comes back in like a days.
That being said, the most interesting thing in all of Buffy, if you wanna go hard-core, is the Order of Aurelius. WTF was Aurelius, what is the Order, and why were they considered the elite, as it were.
Let us, the true Watchers (of the show) open a deep dive. People like us really are pretty much the keepers of the lore. Truly.
Wel done, good video.
Bloody hell, those typos were almost incomprehensible. Please forgive this android phone. I promise, I am coherent lol.
Lore of What do Buffy's vampires mean? Momentum 100
I feel like the "soul" in the buffyverse can be interpreted in one of two ways: Literally, in the perspective of first person. You die and you move on to the great beyond, but your "meat suit" continues to act with some sort of "magic-virus". Or :figuratively, your soul is actually your conscience, the ability to have compassion, love, or remorse. Either way it seems less "primal" or animalistic than the werewolf, more aware than say, a zombie. I have always viewed it as the difference between a normal person and a sociopath.
My thaught on the matter is:
- the demon gets an existence on the earth-realm / a material existence (we never see a vampire-demon without a host, so who knows)
- you loose your moral compass.
Best of both world.
Wonder what Harmony would have been like if she regained her soul?
Having just seen this as the first of your videos, instead of arguing the points, I kind of think you rather nailed them. You even seem like a top tier buffy reviewer, even though I've just gotten here. Have you noticed the channel Passion of the Nerd?
ian’s videos were a big part of my impetus to make my own channel years ago!
well..the soul is more or less the seat of moral judgement. so that aspect gets removed, but all the vampiric "soul" that replaces it has to operate off of are the memories/mind of the vessel they are inhabiting. It's why a vampire might act more "liberated", but won't suddenly gain new skills they didn't posess before. this isn't "evil dead" where entities with indpendant exisitances are using bodies and memories as sock puppets and briefly using said memories to imitate thier victims...(and wouldn't THAT have been interesting?!?) it also explains why new vampires tend to be more feral, but "calm down" and start using human traits more as they get older..they're literally new people using the memoreis of the bodies they inhabit asvery direct form of ancestral memory. In the case of angel, the gypsies grabbed his soul and crammed it back into the body, caging the vampire and mmaking him essentially a second personality.
also, you're assuming the demons that enter the bodies of humans to become vampries had bodies/lives of thier own beforehand. it's entirely possible they DIDN"T.
The way I always understood it was The Body remembers things that happened when the soul was not present and as soon as the soul is reinstated .. the person remembers the things that happened because the body they are in actually did them.
lets say that 80% of a person is the body (the brain, the place where we remember who we are) that leavs 20% for the soul (the conscience)
now replace the 20% soul with 20% daemon and you still have the 80% that still remembers being a person but without the limits of the conscience and an immortal body transformation from the daemon.
put the soul back in the body (120% now) and the 80% that was there originally was there The Whole Time and remembers what they did only now they have a conscience again to filter the memories through.
That's a great well thought analysis! 👏👏👏
I think that the fundamental difference between a soul and souless is that a vampire cannot perceive a world outside the self and their own desires, treating the world the way a player in a video game might treat NPCs. The soul seems to act as the conscience and the ability to understand and form meaningful bonds with others outside of their own selfish feelings.
Is the channel called five by five as a Faith Lehane reference is what I want to know
I always saw it as like driving a car. When a human becomes a vamp they leave the body, or car & the demon changes the car into a different car & starts driving but when the Vamp gets it's soul back the demon moves into the passenger seat & the soul starts driving but when the soul is removed again the demon is again driving. All the memories are there from what happened to the car & the soul instantly knows as does the demon but each in turn take control of the car, the person that they inhabit. The demon uses it to do evil & the soul for redemption.