Y’all know this is just my opinion right? Also, due to mistakes on my end this video has been uploaded 3 times. It looks so bad cause TH-cam compression is THAT bad… if you do it three times. Lol
@@bZman I completely 100% agree - Daniel - please don't boycott/deprive yourself of Angel esp if you're using the reason that Whedon is a complete (insert relevant insult here) as a human being - it makes no sense to watch Buffy but not Angel - because it is next level, well, everything
If its a centuarys old creature I have a tendency to base my thoughts on there actions based off visible age. That being said I was not as bothered as you were by Angel's actions... but I do forget he did stalk her before the main point of the show. Originally I would place him in indifferent. But with Stalking added I say hate. He does save the day enough times that I do not want death. But hate is enough to show I have no trust in him personally. Man its been about a decade since I watched all 7 seasons in a binge... who the hell is Anya? like no memory of her at all.
I think if you'd seen Angel this tier list would be very different. Wesley is underdeveloped in season 3 of Buffy and is mostly a bumbling comic relief character. By the later seasons of Angel he's unrecognisable and yet his development tracks wonderfully to make him possibly the best-written character in the Buffy-verse. Angel is bogged down by orbiting Buffy without much room to define himself individually, 'Amends' S3E10 gives a preview of the journey he goes on throughout the spin-off show. Faith's redemption arc is missing its whole middle section without her Angel episodes, in fact she's a big reason why season 4 of Angel is even worth watching. Cordelia develops well on Angel to the point where she becomes one of the most endearing people and then... well Imma just pretend her Season 4 plot never happened, it's better if we all do. At least they tried to fix things after that.
SPOILERS! Spike too, he gets some great development in Season 5 of Angel and has a very different path to redemption than the one Angel is on. Bringing him to that show was one of the best decisions they made
I hated Cordelia at first and then they made me love her and then... yeah, let's not talk about it. I will never watch anything done by Whedon EVER again. He loves to torment his characters just for freaking fun. I can't stand it!
I feel like season 4 was hate-written to punish Charisma for being pregnant so screw that noise. Outside of S4, I love the introduction of Fred and Lorne in ATS and Spike in Season 5 is great.
I'm just glad to see Giles get the appreciation he deserves, although my reasoning was less tied to the Candy episode and more to just how his relationship with buffy is constantly developing in amazing, earned ways. Plus loved seeing him first presented as a bumbling librarian and then learning he used to summon demons for kicks
Agreed. Learning that he'd just been John Constantine in his youth was amazing. Right down to the idea that they recruited him specifically because they were worried about how bad he could be if he went dark.
One of the best Giles moments is when he suffocates Ben at the end of the Glory season. We learn right then and there what kind of man Giles is, and it’s not one to be fucked with
@@tompadfoot3065 "They aren't like us." "wait....us?" *giles murders the fuck out of Ben* didn't get the quote quite right, but still as you said good moment. he's a good man, but not THAT good of a man. (of course I coul be misrmebering entirely)
I'm sorry but you forgot the most well rounded, thoughtfully written and touchingly crafted character in the whole of the show. Justice for Caveman Buffy
It’s a pretty solid list. I’d have put Wesley and Harmony further up on the list, but that’s mostly based on their “Angel” appearances. I would recommend at least watching the Faith 2 Parter from Angel season 1 since it resolves her original character arc and acts as bridge to her later appearances on BTVS. Also there’s a muppet fight in the Angel season 5 that’s a lot of fun.
It's frustrating but also weirdly ironic how all of the characters here that also appeared in Angel would turn into S or A tier characters. Even with and despite all the horrible revelations around how whedon treated Chrisma Carpenter - Cordelia was an incredible and wonderful character in that show.
I thought the same thing. I understand why Daniel has chosen not to watch it, and really a character's development shouldn't be reliant on another source. However a lot of those he didn't like much or ranked lower grew to become so amazing in Angel.
Yep faiths best stuff, and depit charismas treatment on rthe show, its thank god firt not whedons show but writr who let her get amazing, and then, and angel really shine as morally grey antihero, dammit weasley the best. Angel really picked up th character buffy let down and mad them, great (if seasons yeah) Also i would watch angel because how amazing she can be. to hammer down how horribl whedon is, and its the superior show.
I would recommand it to see how great a character she can be (the series is not wheons thing reall, especially the first seasons wher she is amazing. ) Seriously daniel, its a much bette show and if you care what whedon did, watch it to see her at her best too. An wesley. And its way more adult, and evil lawyers.
@@omarf.4146 Oh I didn't think it had to do with Joss but his dislike for Angel and what the whole premise of that character is. The whole turning a stalker pedophile into a hero of his own show, but maybe it was related to Joss.
Completely agree about Joyce, she was a horrible mother. First time Buffy told her the truth she put her in psych ward and the second time basically threw her out
Joyce didn't understand at first, but Buffy also didn't take the time to help her understand. And when Joyce felt her kid slipping away from her, she had a negative trauma reaction and tried being the authoritarian. And when Joyce eventually came around, she became one of Buffy's most vocal supporters until her death. Her worries were the same ones any reasonable parent would have, we just see them as unreasonable because the show focuses on Buffy's perspective
@@tompadfoot3065 Agreed: I love moments like "This Year's Girl", where she is completely confident about Buffy, and is almost on the same wave-length as Buffy when she crashes through (I believe she expresses something similar in "Helpless"): Joyce goes through an arc of her own through the show, and the interesting thing is that you could write the series from her point of view. By the time we have to say goodbye to her, she has come a long way. (Incidentally, of course, Giles isn't the only one on that police car: if you're giving him credit for that, you need to include Joyce).
I agree the whole Angel storyline is very creepy. Let’s not forget though, Anya was also about a thousand years old when she went after Xander, who was still in high school and a minor at the time 😬I swear that I’ll never tell I guess 🤐
@@Metal-Spark it could also, maybe, be that she was extremely less experienced and worldly or whatever overall too...so maybe, behaviorally, it just wasn't as immediately obvious? idk ..I'm still with you, on that, tho.
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 I always found that odd. When we first meet Anya she's pretending to be a student before she gives Cordelia her wish, and she seemed to be doing fine. Once she became human she just had absolutely no idea how to interact with people, I always thought it was weird because she's been around humans for quite some time.
@@anatoldenevers237 Probably just poor continuity, there, honestly-since[ if I remember it right] they did not originally intend to keep her character around and essentially retconned in this way of not actually writing her off the show kind of last-minute or something? 🤔😅🤷♀️ 🤷 That's something that I always thought was weird too, but could really only shrug and just try not to think about it too hard. Loll
Man I really, really hope Daniel decides to watch Angel just so I can see all his interesting choices that would inevitably happen in his character tier list for that show. Plus it's a great show despite its issues, just like Buffy.
I onestly imagine that whenever someone says issues and Angel in the same sentence, they are actually screaming i their head "Season 4" on repeat. And they are right, that shit with Cordelia was a BIG NO
Wesley might be my favorite television character of all time and I really think you should give Angel a shot purely for his arc. Although Angel and Cordy are vastly improved upon there as well.
Angelis such a good moreally grey antihero, (a wes gets later) , i think he would love it too much tomiss it ) and cordy is actually treated great while whedon isnt rally involved in anything big there .
Yeah, Angel took 3 of my least favorite characters in Buffy and turned them all of them into characters I either like or adore. Wesley's arc is just fantastic, and the resolution to Faith's character was also very good.
@@darkelf1402 Agreed. Also I'm just a mark for Lorne. I love him and even loved how done he was with the dimension he was from specifically because art wasn't a thing. His obsession with music, as a musician I remember loving it.
Wesley’s Arc on Angel is one of the best character transformations I’ve ever seen on t.v. If you watched any episode with Wesley on Buffy or season 1-2ish of angel then showed someone season five Wesley they would be like “what the fuuuuck how did we get from there to here?”
@@derrickpanciera5644 Yeah, Wesley is incredible. There's honestly only a handful of characters I would say I've seen have better arcs than his, Walter White for instance(and several characters from The Wire).
Its been clarified that by the time Cordelia is comically flirting with Wesley she's 18. It was played as a joke, particularly their kissing scene and afterwards both of them realise how dumb they were to be pursuing each other. By the time they're working together through the spinoff it doesn't come up, so I don't dock points against Wesley for it.
@@atris7722 it happens because Cordelia is trying to pass off the visions onto him so I think it's season 1. And it's brushed off pretty quickly, just a wee call-back.
Yeah, I don't get the hate. He wasn't in a position of authority over her. Plus she was 18, and let us not forget he had the emotional maturity of a scone. All good. I'm a guy in my 30s and would absolutely date an 18-year-old if we had enough in common. People need to chill. There's too much infantilization of young women in modern culture.
Buffy is a TV show that defined the generation that watched it and the generations of TV shows that came after. It aged so well and it will be forever iconic. I grew up with Buffy and she's still in my heart.
I’m sure this will be an incredibly easy video to follow as someone who’s never seen the show. I know the show’s pretty wild, so I’m excited to be thoroughly confused 👍🏼
Okay, I get it. I get it. I get it... ...but I'm crying Angel The Show character development tears. There are SO MANY characters in Buffy that get a massive glow up in Angel. Wesley is still my favorite character of all time, and watching Buffy only fans digest this fact is always amusing but depressing lol!
Wes and hi intruiguing relationship with also intersting illyria ooh And honestly, angel shows what cordy could be. because it mak her a better characr and shows her growth will she i still herself. And actual feminine and badass while human.
Me too lol, I winced just slightly when he Daniel put Wesley at the bottom. His development is SO good, I went from detesting him when he first was introduced to adoring him by the end. Very good writing and acting for his character.
@@ethanf6136 Can't say Cordelia simply because of season 4, that season really screwed over her character imo. But yes, it was going very well for her up until then
You should watch Angel. In many ways I think it's a better series than Buffy. If nothing else it adds way more depth and likeability to Angel, Wesley, and Cordelia.
Yep angel, really made me hate what he did to cordy, because as long as whedon was busy with buffy, she was such a great character. And wesley, and angel are actual deep fun intruiging characters . And its adult, an actual fun adult show. season 4 is mixed. But the thing is , its not really a whedon show, its rom the dudes who did grimm later, and thats why its moe mature and better. And ages far better..
@@joshramirez7 Angel sucks in Buffy, I agree. But his show was a turning point that gave him a personality and all of the things that Daniel likes about Buffy is also explored and done well on Angel.
Ethan Rayne is responsible for some of the best filler episodes AND Giles moments in the show. He's basically just a plot device to bring out Giles's dark side, which is ALWAYS awesome. Definitely underrated.
Being the same age as the characters were portrayed always leaves this show with a level of nostalgia that really has a special place for me. The music, fashion, and honestly humor really does take me back.
Same here. I was one year younger than the characters while the show was airing, and it made me really connect with it. It's still my favorite show ever.
I remember when you first mentioned Buffy on the channel and the dismissive way that you talked about it inspired me to write my most well-thought-out comment ever. It makes me so happy to see that you've finished it and understand how monumental this show was despite some of the creepy things that seemed less creepy when it was airing.
Oh Tara, that death scene was so good… I actually managed to experience it twice, I watched it really young and forgot about the twists in later seasons. And then I watched it recently and it got me in the feels again. It still hurts…
I love Wesley. The development he has from his first episode in Buffy to his time on Angel is really amazing. Angel is really good (excluding that horrid 4th season and what they did to Cordelia in there). Also Angel and Wesley hooked up with adults in there. I keep forgetting that tey didn't in Buffy :/ Also, Warren is great. He shows us that "Gun" is more powerful than "beating up the slayer with fists"
Wesley's arc in Angel alone makes it worth watching, imo. It is absolutely masterful character writing. I have the same gripes as everyone else with Season 4, but I think the show makes up for it in leaps and bounds in the earlier and later seasons.
Yep and even if you hate th later treatment, the earlier seasons where whedon was barely involved, show how much dirty cordy was done and how fleched out great she is. Honestly , i wouldnt care if i hadnt seen hat she was robbed of to begin with A angel and later illyria, oooh. An angel is actualy allowed to live his potential as morally grey struggling antihero,that is very funny in his akwardness and self seriousness. And i lov that cordy and wes and co just dot let him brood that it becomes funny akward XD.
Overall? Not bad, kid. I will say that watching Angel would probably change some of your opinions. Wesley, for example, is (IMO) the most well-developed character in television history. Xander is a really tough character for me to place. He has a great heart and some of the best moments in the show but he also has some problematic views that aren't challenged enough or resolved.
And angel, and cordy. Angel really had btter treatment of female characters i feel (later that is , ..., but before,they rare just capable people that do things. , not stereotyped)
I love Spike, and I've met James Marsters and he's also a really good guy, I even asked him about Dresden and he was funnily enough the first person I spoke to in person about the series who's actually read them. Good memories.
A lot of Spike's fluctuating writing came from Joss Whedon not liking Spike but he quickly became a fan favorite and had to keep him. Spike was meant to have the first story arc he was in and then be gone for good.
Okay, the complaint about Angel is really legitimate but you should watch Angel. It's a great show, he's a good character, and man you would not BELIEVE the arc for Wesley and Cordelia on that show. It's truly insane.
oh no! the temptation to RE-watch ALL of Buffy (& Angel - sadly cut short before it's time) is now so so so strong - so much new content out there to watch, but Buffy is *SO* good - (and bunnies are so very evil and dangerous ! 🐰🐇🐰)
@@Metal-Spark Honestly I'm surprised, I thought everyone loved Spike(I admit I've never liked him as much as everyone else, but it's surprising seeing him not mentioned often in these comments).
I think Buffy was overall a better show, but yes Angel is also incredible, and also I think Angel's finale is probably one of the best ever, whereas Buffy's finale was somewhat disappointing to me.
Having seen only Buffy, I understand the placements of Cordelia and Wesley, but their arcs on Angel make them two of my favorite characters in the Buffyverse.
I understand your reasons for not wanting to watch Angel. I would be genuinely interested in seeing how your opinion of Wesley changes based on his arc in that show though.
Great video, I have been waiting for this since the mix-up last week. Thank you. I missed Vampire Willow and Dark Willow characters. Bored now! I understand why you don't intend to watch Angel. I wish you would and you do have the choice to watch Angel season 1-3 just for Cordelia's arc, it is a very satisfying end for her if you stop there. Then of course there is season 5 where you get the best buddy storyline of 2003. And there are, as many others have written, so many Buffy characters getting their arcs further developed and finished in Angel. And of course, Angel is a darker more grown-up show than Butty. Fingers crossed you change your mind.
Daniel, can you please do other character tier lists for classic fantasy and sci fi shows from the 90's to mid 00's like Farscape, Angel, X Files, Babylon 5, Stargate SG1, Hercules, Xena, Futurama, etc. Imo the 90's to mid 00's was tv's true golden age for science fiction and fantasy shows. So much better than the mediocre sci fi and fantasy shows that we have today.
Indeed. Don forget stargate atlantis (and angel please, its too good to be judged on a dude who didnt even helm the show for most of the time. the 2 other eecutives did very well.
hmm don't forget that Xena and Hercules are widely considered as bad shows... And I could cite a lot of good fantasy and sci-fi shows recent: The Boys, Stranger Things, The Expanse, Arcane, first seasons of Game of Thrones, Invincible, The Dragon Prince, ...
Gotta come to my girl Joyce's defense - she was under the influence of a (technobabble) love potion at the time that she didn't believe Buffy was being abused. She was never the perfect mom, which I think was very intentional and even called out by her when she and Buffy have it out at the beginning of Season 3, so I can appreciate people not liking her. But you can't base it on a time when there was literal mind control going on.
@@sarafontanini7051 My own mother, who was wonderful, said at one point that no one gets an "A" in parenting. But the important thing is start from a point of caring and love. Joyce does that; and by the end of her run, I understand why the people around her do love her.
I understand your mixed feelings towards Spike, but just remember for the majority of the show he has no soul, which in the context of the show means he has no moral compass. Much of what Spike does, even the most reprehensible things, are a direct consequence of him trying to come to terms with his feelings while not fully being able to comprehend right from wrong. I'm pretty confident I know exactly what scene you're talking about, and while it's a painful watch, I think it's a great character moment that explores a dark subject matter. I can understand it being uncomfortable, but I don't think it can be called bad. And, if memory serves, he still has no soul at that point. I personally do buy Spike's redemption. It's a slow build through multiple seasons with a ton of ups and downs along the way, I'm not sure how else they could've done it to make it better.
The problem is people love and excuse spike for being a monster and attempting kill and separate the gang but crucify Xander for being human. Yet spike is Still portrayed as a good guy because of a chip. Years later I realize spike is just writing flaw after writing flaws, and was not needed when you look at the success of season 3.
@@robertoglencoco7861 I've seen some people argue Spike was the best part of the series, but yeah, season 3 is probably the best season of either show and he's in it for all of one episode.
I appreciate your reasoning for putting Xander in the Like Tier. He does grow, inconsistently, but it is there. In my heart, however, he will always get the electric chair lmao.
@@calistusjay60 that's an insane take. Xander being the LEAST problematic?? Not only is he an authorial insert for Joss Whedon to play his nice guy routine, he's also consistently the most sexist character throughout with his actions and his words. Like I said, he arcs out of some of that but it's definitely not just a season 1 thing.
@@jacobedelman-dolan4528 Buffy: tried to kill everyone, victim blames domestic abuse victim, double standards on killing Anya despite keeping willow/spike alive for the same crimes, racist jokes towards Kendra and the first Slayer and robin. Willow: Almost/and actually follows through with using magic to take away people’s free will, make Oz never feel love again. Bullies Anya for being blunt. Sexually assaulted Tara. Almost killed Dawn in a car crash, almost killed everyone when turning evil. Xander: Was jealous of angel, bitter after being rejected by Buffy (for like a couple episodes). Makes some skeevy jokes every now and then. Supported Riley, suggesting Buffy shared blame for his cheating. Sexualising women in his dreams. Compared to the others, his crimes are more “icky” and less actually severe or harmful.
@@calistusjay60 For real, what Willow did to Tara is maybe the worst thing any of the 'good' characters did in the show (I'm excluding pre-Season 7 Spike, since he's an evil character on the good team). I don't think I realised how bad it was when I was younger, but as an adult, Jesus Christ. Like, the way people talk about how Seeing Red tainted Spike irrevocably for them, yet mind-wipe Willow is just fine? P.S. Seeing Red was awful, but after that Spike regains his soul, and holding souled Spike accountable for unsouled Spike's actions after the distinction between soul and no-soul was made so clear with Angel feels unfair.
Xandar is the worst person on this show. Whenever he had a chance to throw buffy under the bus he did. He was a snitch and never get over the fact of being friendzoned by buffy. He betrayed all of his girlfriends, he left anya at their wedding day. He throws buffy out of the house in the last episodes without any empathy. He hated her for dating spike and angel and riley. Uffff hate him. Electric chair to me
I'll be honest, I'm torn on Angel (the character). I absolutely understand the whole sexualising a minor thing but I think my brain just switches that criticism off because I know it's not real. I take the on-screen chemistry and writing at face value without thinking about it too hard. I can't really justify it logically, but it just doesn't bother me when I actually watch the show because it's not a realistic portrayal of their relative ages - at no point does it feel like there's a huge age gap, even though on paper there is, so my brain just doesn't register it. All that said, I really think you should watch Angel (the show). It adds some much needed development to the side characters from Buffy, expands the world in interesting ways and gives Angel a chance to shine without the Buffy relationship being the core of who he is on screen.
I think it’s because since he’s a vampire and was suppose to be sired around the age 18/19 so you can’t really put modern morals because if you do then technically Buffy would be doing it with a dead corpse
Your visceral reaction to Tara let's me know I'm in the right place. I had no idea you were even embarking on your Buffy journey, but I'm glad you did! Curious to see if you will continue into the comic seasons, I've not yet done that myself. Great video!
Adding my voice to the chorus of people saying to watch Angel. In my opinion it's the better show in spite of some poor writing decisions here and there (probably mostly Joss's fault). If you made it through Buffy, there's no reason to swear off Angel. Definitely don't miss out on it, as it has the best characters and arcs in the Buffyverse.
I loved buffy's arc from Wano . Probably some of the best moments for Buffy and the crew in this one arc. Good stuff . Bravo Oda!!!! ( Edit : Daniel .....u took away the heart you gave ......)
It's a safety thing. A TH-camr can heart a comment then the commenter could edit the comment to say some fucked up shit and still have that heart? Nope. Nope.
If you're going to be hating on Angel for the pedo stuff, it's kind of strange you don't dislike Anya. She is like over 1000 years old and dates a high school boy.
I can't help but think of the snarky, tell me you haven't watched Angel, without telling me you haven't watched Angel, but I'm genuinely curious if your opinion will change upon watching his spin off show, which I believe is right up your alley, given it involves supernatural detectives agencies, etc.
@@thewalrusaurus I'm not sure what you really mean by that. Are you meaning who Daniel's choosing? Either way, going between shows in the canonical order, I found a pretty fun experience that added a lot more context, come the later seasons.
This might be nostalgia talk as i havent seen Buffy for over a decade, but Spike had some of the rawest lines in the series, "You were cursed with your soul, I fought for mine!" And maybe because its James Marsters. But he deserves the Love ranking and i will fight you on that.
While I agree Xander is not in the same tier as Buffy and Willow and Giles I think the writing at least some of it was intentional and not inconsistent. Xander constantly battled with “I’m the third wheel” compared to buffy and willows smarts and Witchery. He was the “normal” guy and with that he was flawed. Some of his choices and comments sucked but you also could understand where he was coming from. Even if it fluctuates between Xander wanting to be a part of the scoobies, and him lashing out and being a bit of an ass at times.
I agree and that's why over the series he drifted down to the "Dislike" category for me. He seemed to resent Buffy for not being with him, and Willow for being more special than him, and even Anya to the point that he wasn't a good partner. By the end of the show I thought he was the worst is the main cast.
I think you hit did an excellent job with this list. At first I was shocked with some of your choices, but as you explained them and as the list fleshed out, I feel it really very accurate. I'd love to seem Avatar: Last Air Bender get this treatment (I'm gonna search your archives in a moment). I first watched it as a way to bond with the older children of the sibling group we adopted and got hooked. I've watched it through at least twice and maybe more watching snippets. It has some of the strongest character development I've seen and is just an awesome story, perhaps my favorite TV series ever. Thanks for doing what you do!
As a Buffy fan, like set my VCR to record episodes in the 90's, go to a James Marsters concert at age 13 fan, I agree with this list. Inconsistent writing and odd character choices really do influence a lot with this series. Was it perfect? Hell no. Is Joss Whedon horrible enough that I regretted my tattoos for a month or so? Yes. But this is still my go to comfort show. Admittedly, I put Spike at the top tier but I choose to ignore some of the VERY stupid choices made there. A++ Daniel.
I do think you should check out Angel, I totally get your problems with his character but it also expands a lot on Cordelia and Wesley, while there are a few minutes the writing shits the bed with those characters those are only a few moments out of five seasons which are otherwise of a very solid quality. It also gives us Lorne, who never fails to make me smile whenever hes on screen. Then again I did last watch Buffy when I was like 14 so maybe my views would change if I watched again as an adult
I adore BTVS but I think your assessment is fair. Giles, Drusilla and Spike are my top tier. I think you missed one though - a fun villain sidekick - Mr Trick, I kind of liked him.
After a decade of watching and re-watching and then re-watching after therapy... Spike is top-tier. Large in part to James Marsters performance, but also in some part to the writing. He is the only one who doesn't try to argue Buffy out of her emotions (provide scathing commentary, yes, but argue or gaslight, no). He just lets her have her emotions, sitting quietly, being there for her (I'm not counting during their affair, that was several levels of messed up that undermined Spike's development to that point, thanks Joss 😖). I agree that Buffy declined in the last couple of seasons partly due to the actress starting to burn out, but to me it actually seems honest character-wise, the constant undermining and questioning of her feelings from Willow and Xander and Giles... been there and it totally flattens you from the inside out. Hate Xander because when Spike says he loves Buffy, Xander immediately projects and makes it sexual (I mean, it was on some level for Spike, but like all his early efforts are so sincere and dorky and very William, not sexual advances) and he also pressures Buffy into making it work with Riley who freaking cheated on her. Hate Willow for abusing Tara and generally being self-absorbed. And screw Giles for abandoning Buffy at her emotionally weakest, that wiped out all his father-figure points with fire. I wish Spike, Tara, and Anya took Dawn and left the Scoobies' abuse and neglect when things started to fall apart S6 and lived happily ever after.
In Giles's defense, they had to write him out of the show because Anthony Stewart Head (the actor who plays Giles) wasn't available for much of season 6. When Buffy dies at the end of season 5, a lot of the crew thought the show was over because they weren't renewed for another season. That's part of the reason they kill her, as a possible series finale. Anthony Head moved back to England and was working on another show. Then the Buffy was saved by a different network, and brought back for seasons 6 and 7. They had to find an excuse for Giles to be gone most of the season, despite Buffy coming back to life.
@@supermonkey321 While I have to imagine that TV has to be one of the hardest things to write for with so many variables, I don't think the writers had to torpedo Giles that badly. They could have had him off investigating things or at least had him calling in to check on the gang. Even if they had him leave due to his own emotional weakness, they could have had him work to do better in S7. Instead, Giles tries to dictate policy like "I abandoned you Buffy so you could grow up, but I don't like how you decided to grow up and handle things so now I'm going to be petulant about your choices." It just leaves a sour taste for me for that character. That's the writer's fault, not the actor's. Anthony is lovely and I love a lot of Giles moments early in the series.
I watched an interview with James Marsters and Joss Whedon hated that he became a series regular. Joss wanted him to have a guest roll and then die but the fans loved him so much the network wanted to bring him back and Joss was so against it and mad that he treated James like shit on set. He told a story how Joss shoved him against the wall and basically told him if he had it his way he'd have been dead. He was telling that story in response to a question he was asked about Charisma Carpenter making her accusations and if he ever experienced anything like that. I'm suprised the whole cast was able to put out the performances they did with such a tyrant of a director.
Onestly james Masters is arguably the guy that talks the best about Joss overall, everytime he talks about him, he seems to have great esteem for the man (or at least his writing talent). Also while it is true that Joss hated Spike, I think he came around to it, since in most episodes directded and written by Whedon Spike always had a pivital role, like in Once More with Feelings where he saves Buffy, and in Chosen when he has the ultimate sacrifice, and he even came to Angel, and Whedon was willing to pay Marsters extra to have him on the show. Joss has even stated how Spike was arguably the most developed character in all of his works. The reasonWhedon hated Spike was because vampire were supposed to be pure evil things that represented tenns insecurities and were meant to be defeated, with the exeption of Angel, however Spike was so popular that everyone wanted him on set, and that went against everything he belived in, which even James Marsters understood. Still Whedon is a shitty person that did awful things on set, though
@@DanielGreeneReviews As a bisexual woman who really came to terms as a teenager with the help of the Willow/Tara relationship, I feel like it was very gross the way Joss had Willow just man-bash once they were together. It was very straight-male, stereotype almost as if the inference was that her bad experience with Oz "made" her gay. A lot of people just don't understand that you don't have to be just one thing, you can be many. It's just kinda narrow, that's all. I say this as someone who's watched the series multiple times. 😄
Damn, this was a real trip down memory lane! Some of the characters here really gave me flashbacks, one ones I hadn't thought about in a long time, such as Adam, the principle, Glory, etc..
I went through High school watching this show when it first came out and Giles, Willow, Oz, Spike and Dru are my top picks. Totally agree with you on the Dawn, after her arc she felt like character bloat. Just stuck in there cause they haven't figured out how to kill her yet.
Ben is definitely electric chair material. He's a medical professional who summoned a demon to murder a bunch of mentally ill people because they were inconvenient to him (one of whom was Joyce). Then he tried to help murder Dawn to save his own skin. He can ride the lightning!
Some interesting choices there... :P I get the reasoning behind most of them though, even if I don't agree. But I Will Not Stand for this injustice to Wesley Wyndam-Pryce, one of the GOAT characters in genre TV history! ;-) I've always preferred Angel (the show), for my money it got consistently better over 5 seasons, compared to Buffy's ups and downs from year to year. Sadly, the recent revelations about what was happening behind the scenes has tainted what was once one of my favourite TV shows... :'(
I would say Angel got better for three seasons, but season 4 was pretty awful. then season 5 made up for it. And yes, Wesley is an incredible character, I might honestly say he's almost Walter White level(almost, not quite).
Re: the oversexualization of minors by adults. This is a problem I've always had with the show as well, but it's not just adult men/teenage women. Anya is over 1100 years old when she meets and develops a crush on Xander. Xander is also sexualized by several adults (Jenny, Buffy's mom, the substitute teacher), whether through spells or just naturally at various times. There is also the episode where adult Buffy straddles a high school student, that Anya and Willow are also after.
In my opinion Spike is a great representation of a morally gray character, definitely my favorite male character in the series Giles being my second. Willow is the best Female character I watched the show more for her story line!
It's so interesting seeing how new watchers of BtVS in this time think of the show vs me with my nostalgia filled eyes view it. I was obsessed with the show when I was younger, like collected everything I could from it and valued my dvd box sets above all else haha. Spike was my all time favorite character from the show, I absolutely loved him. While some scenes it felt like Joss was personally trying to piss James off and make him miserable (we all know THAT scene), overall, he was just the best. The Buffy/Spike relationship had so many layers there and I always really enjoyed it, even if I wish we got more of it. The Angel love always pissed me off, because he was held up as a beacon of all that's good in Buffy's eyes, when he was shitty dude and went after teenagers as an evil vampire, then as good vampire, perverted that into "loving" a teenager who he had literally nothing to talk about with besides the evil they were fighting and couldn't even keep his evil in his pants. The fact that Spike went and got a soul and overcame his demon, even when he had chances to go back to being his old self...ugh, I love that. (despite the shitty way it was instigated) Looking back now there are obviously issues with the show and how some things were handled, and the icky post-reveal of Joss Whedon's...everything, but the show is so much a part of who I am now, I can't even pretend this show isn't watched with rose colored glasses haha. Buffy herself, the way they used the monsters to tell a coming of age journey for an adult was a masterstroke of genius. I do highly recommend watching Angel is you enjoyed Buffy, even if you hate Angel himself, the show makes him a lot better there. Well....sort of. lol. But a wonderful show none the less!
You really need to watch Angel, not just because it fills in storylines that both start and end in Buffy. Your opinion of Darla, and especially Wesley will change drastically. Both characters go through amazing growth there.
Spike is my favorite character in the buffyverse, though I will admit a lot of my opinion also extends to Angel. I actually really liked the noir elements of Angel and thought it was stronger than the later seasons of Buffy.
My opinion on Xander is… mixed. Pro: Good with Anya Saved Willow from herself Saved Buffy season 1 Was proactive season 1 when it came to dealing with vampires (Angel) Con: Bad timing with jokes While everyone else keeps leveling up, he is left behind. I still don’t understand how he’s not ground beef half the time. The “breakup” with Anya. His obsession with Buffy season 1.
And h was a jerk an never grew out of that. It would be diffrent if he was also shon gay which at least i could have bought he was selfhating,but as it stands, he never grew out of being a jerk.
Miscellanious thoughts: -Yeah Xander has his good moments...but when he's bad, he's REALLY bad, particularly early on when his characterisation is based largely on his attraction to Buffy and his insane jealousy of Angel, which regardless of your feelings on Angel does make Xander look like such a possessive, selfish douche. His bad moments do lend credence to his fears in the wedding episode though, as he worries about basicaly being a bad person who'd hurt Anya and past actions have shown that, yeah, HE can be a douche. Sadly don't rememerb his final line so can't comment on that but yah, the writers do have a problem of defaulting to Xander being the comic relief guy which can lead to some tonal problems. But yeah he has some good stuff too. -The Master is a fun villain. What makes him fun is that he's while a little TOO straight of a evil vampire big bad, he still has enough to him to not make him cliche. Like he makes hammy proclamations about his schemes and big grand evil speeches, and then turns to his minions for critiques on his speeches, and general fun moments that make it feel like he's a partial satirisation of the big bad. He's still a big threat, but he can be fun as hell. A good starting point for the best villains of the show subverting your expectations. -The Mayor is THE best villain in the show, bar none. He's funny, he's goofy, he's scary,and is possibly the weakest of the villains power wise and yet due to his personality and sheer scope of his plans and presence he's one of the msot effective villains in the story. It's just such a fun idea, this goofy satire of a typical 50's-esque personality who hates swearing and acts friendly and polite who is ALSO a homicidal monster who worships demons and can manipualte and use people while ALSO having a genuine love for some people even as he is using them. -Adam....yeah sadly I have to agree. Part of the issue is how late into Season Five he's introduced as the Big Bad, part of it is how little he ends up doing, part of it is his final battle is a magically empowered curbstomp making his buildup feel like a waste, and most of it is he lacks a lot of personality the past big bads had. I LOVED his concept, this weird take on frankenstein who has cyborg bits and bits of dead demons but he's just so underutilised and half-baked and generally not interesting as a character beynd his concept. Great costume work though. -Giles is great. Willing to do some shady things for the best of all (and doesn't even try and jusitfy it, showing some great self introspection), and will do ANYTHING for his surrogate family. Also just a fun guy who grew from the fairly standard long suffering intellectual annoyed at the kids and their wayyyys characterisation he had early on.
spike position breaks my heart, but i get it. now tell me ur opinion of buffy learning she has to die against the master, and the episode of the body, and hush, the beauty of i only have eyes for you, the ending of season 5. and u have to watch angel! bloody puppet! faith! loren! the finale!
This is really hard regardless of what you put. This show literally grew through a generation of people, it's in the hearts of most gen y's (like me) and we watched this show going through similar points in our lives (in the character and relationship growth sense obviously). Still Spike not in love is criminal 😂
Your Glory love and Harmony hate confuses me but otherwise your list is solid. Harmony cracks me up. (Her role in the show and continued presence in the comics gives me strong Buggy the Clown vibes.)
I’d say watch Angel for all the bad Buffy characters to get good, especially Wes, but with everything that Whedon did with his female characters in that show, to the most badly handled love triangle in TV history, to f**king Connor (don’t ask), I have to say it’s not worth it. Just look up Fred compilations; she’s the best. Also-Justice for Gunn; good Lord.
Yay for the Giles love! He has so many quotable lines, and Anthony Head is a master of the stage fall :D Also I really think you should give Angel a go, you could just skip season 4 if you want. Wesleys character arc is brilliant and I think you would absolutely love Lorne and Fred!
Some characters develop a lot more in Angel (Wes and Harmony) but your list is pretty solid. The Mayor will always have a special place in my heart. 😈😈
To be fair to Angel, he didn't randomly decide to stalk Buffy because he might have a crush on her. Whistler asked him to do it in order for Angel to get to know her and decide if he wanted to protect her.
@@babadoudidadouda I was going to say this. Angel is not stalking her in a sexual way, he’s watching out for her because he’s trying to… oh wait they reveal that bit in an Angel flashback, the season 4 one with Faith amirite?
If Angel is creepy how can Spike not be creepy! Spike tries to assault her in season 6 when he claimed to love her. I also agree with the other comments that mention Anya, if you're upset about age gaps I think the 1,000 year old demon has to be the weirdest, she's older than Spike and Angel combined haha
oh Daniel - please don't boycott/deprive yourself of Angel esp if you're using the reason that Whedon is a complete (insert relevant insult here) as a human being - it makes no sense to watch Buffy but not Angel - because it is next level, well, everything - in many ways it's the grown up (while still very hilarious) version of Buffy - a LOT more character development, existing (including Cordelia (Charisma Carpenter) and new - like Lorne aka Krevlornswath of the Deathwok Clan- and some really awesome work/story arcs/characters from Amy Acker...and, and, and well esp Spike, who gets even more hilarious, plus, and - well just please watch it (the first season is not so great - improves significantly after that...)
And whedon actually th first 3 season too busy with bufy , he let the hadwriters and producers do their ay more mature show that actually has good female characters that are just good. Which i guess is my proof that the nuance there that whedon didnt have much influence firt seasons.
As a long time Buffy fan, I do agree with most of your tier list, just for different reasons. I would have put Xander in dislike, for instance, because I feel like for every good moment we get with the guy, there’s a moment after that makes me dislike him all over again. He just rubbed me the wrong way when we met him, he was like the nice guy troupe who has a unrequited crush on the pretty main character and it makes him petty sometimes. But FUN FACT! The actor who plays Xander has an identical twin brother who played his evil doppelgänger in one episode of the show.
Yeah, while Warren is peak incel, Xander has a LOT of Nice Guy energy that's pervasive throughout the show and I don't think he ever grows out of it. Plus him and Dawn in the comics just eeks me out.
About Angel and the age issue: Doesn't that go for Spike as well then? And Anya? But I always imagine vampires or whatever that they're stuck at the age they were when they got turned and thus are still attracted to humans that age. But then I think Spike was a bit younger than Angel in real life so fair enough. But I'm team Spuffy, so I'm biased.
You should really watch Angel…. It’s…. Equal to…if not better than Buffy as it goes… or maybe not better but…. It has a somewhere different tone… and Angel is a far greater character than what he stars as in Buffy You’re also missing out on characters like Fred… and more spike…. And Loren. And that’s a tragedy
I actually think Angel (the show, not the character) does a lot for Cordelia. Like I love Cordelia in BtVS and she just grew and got even more depth in Angel. (((As long as you pretend season 4 of Angel does not exist)))
And pretend the entire kid thing never happened...☹Angel started out great! I loved the detective angle and indeed, lots of character development. If only the writing had been more aimed at that instead of 'miracles' and rapey situations it could have gone on for much longer imo. When Spike arrived as a regular, some of those episodes reached amazing heights. Makes me sad what could have been...
Honestly, I am impressed you managed to do this. Because I cannot comfortably say there is any character on the show that I hate, for the whole reason being even if they're horrible people, I still enjoyed their performance and watching their character. And some of these villains and characters had times when they were soaring high, and then the dark dark times that almost ruin the entire character, and I'm over here just confused about how to talk about them. Like, sure I enjoyed the trio in season six, but I also want them to all die in a hole. Sure, I cannot say I hate Spike but, *gestures to him stalking Buffy and that one scene in season 6. There is only one character I can say that I actually dislike and that is Angel. One, the whole centuries old falling in love and low-key stalking a teenager, even as 'good' Angel (who doesn't actually exist) always was bad. When I was watching this as a young teen I never was comfortable with their relationship. And it is messed up. And it is kind of sad that this was Buffy's great love story throughout her life. But also I don't like this kind of character, the brooding mysterious guy. I find them boring, and usually somewhat two-dimensional. I am very happy to see Oz and Tara in the LOVE tier because it is what they deserve. I thoroughly enjoyed their run time on the show, and the presence their characters brought. Especially the character that Tara grew into. I though would have put Jenny with them, because that character was a delight for me. I would have moved Dawn higher. A lot of people found her annoying, but even when I was younger I loved her as a character and I thought she was somewhat refreshing to the show. I do agree with you that she does orbit after season 5, but I actually love who she grew into in season 6 and 7.
Mel: Yay, ranking Buffy characters. I had fun watching. The only thing I would have changed is to put Xander into the "Like" category. He has some great moments but he can also be a little toxic. I enjoyed watching Passion of a Nerd's take on Buffy episodes too. Thank you so much. Had a good time watching this.
I think angel said it best about spikes redemption. It was something to the effect of you spent a couple days hallucinating and now you get forgiven for everything and get to walk around with a clear conscience. That's bs I went to hell and spent a hundred years trying to atone.
I was so deep in the Buffyverse as a teen. I also read the novels. If you're up for an interesting Giles twist, read The Lost Slayer by Christopher Golden - it's wild!
![SAFEPLANET - ดาวเคราะห์ [ THE PLANET ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4X1XL3I_k3c/mqdefault.jpg)
Y’all know this is just my opinion right?
Also, due to mistakes on my end this video has been uploaded 3 times. It looks so bad cause TH-cam compression is THAT bad… if you do it three times. Lol
Would you do a video like this on the original charmed series 🤔
You definitely need to watch Angel. It has some low points but over all it is excellent
@@bZman I completely 100% agree - Daniel - please don't boycott/deprive yourself of Angel esp if you're using the reason that Whedon is a complete (insert relevant insult here) as a human being - it makes no sense to watch Buffy but not Angel - because it is next level, well, everything
@@juliaconnell Absolutely, Wesley and his arc in Angel is literal god tier shit.
If its a centuarys old creature I have a tendency to base my thoughts on there actions based off visible age. That being said I was not as bothered as you were by Angel's actions... but I do forget he did stalk her before the main point of the show. Originally I would place him in indifferent. But with Stalking added I say hate.
He does save the day enough times that I do not want death. But hate is enough to show I have no trust in him personally.
Man its been about a decade since I watched all 7 seasons in a binge... who the hell is Anya? like no memory of her at all.
Anya's reaction to the death of Joyce is one of the most powerful moments in TV. Change my mind.
I don't want to.
Yes.
i was already fuckin sad when it happened. but then Anya's reaction sent me S P I R A L I N G
The algorithm gave me that clip about a year after my mom died and it put me right back in the same headspace, absolutely wrecked me for a couple days
Why would I change your mind, you're right.
I think if you'd seen Angel this tier list would be very different. Wesley is underdeveloped in season 3 of Buffy and is mostly a bumbling comic relief character. By the later seasons of Angel he's unrecognisable and yet his development tracks wonderfully to make him possibly the best-written character in the Buffy-verse. Angel is bogged down by orbiting Buffy without much room to define himself individually, 'Amends' S3E10 gives a preview of the journey he goes on throughout the spin-off show. Faith's redemption arc is missing its whole middle section without her Angel episodes, in fact she's a big reason why season 4 of Angel is even worth watching.
Cordelia develops well on Angel to the point where she becomes one of the most endearing people and then... well Imma just pretend her Season 4 plot never happened, it's better if we all do. At least they tried to fix things after that.
SPOILERS! Spike too, he gets some great development in Season 5 of Angel and has a very different path to redemption than the one Angel is on. Bringing him to that show was one of the best decisions they made
I hated Cordelia at first and then they made me love her and then... yeah, let's not talk about it. I will never watch anything done by Whedon EVER again. He loves to torment his characters just for freaking fun. I can't stand it!
I feel like season 4 was hate-written to punish Charisma for being pregnant so screw that noise. Outside of S4, I love the introduction of Fred and Lorne in ATS and Spike in Season 5 is great.
@@atris7722 Agreed, and I love the point that Spike makes to Angel. "I freaking chose to reclaim my humanity, I fought for this. You were cursed."
@@LupineShadowOmega
Yeah their exchanges are just *chefs kiss*
I'm just glad to see Giles get the appreciation he deserves, although my reasoning was less tied to the Candy episode and more to just how his relationship with buffy is constantly developing in amazing, earned ways. Plus loved seeing him first presented as a bumbling librarian and then learning he used to summon demons for kicks
And his singing was on point in the musical episode.
Agreed. Learning that he'd just been John Constantine in his youth was amazing. Right down to the idea that they recruited him specifically because they were worried about how bad he could be if he went dark.
One of the best Giles moments is when he suffocates Ben at the end of the Glory season. We learn right then and there what kind of man Giles is, and it’s not one to be fucked with
@@tompadfoot3065 "They aren't like us." "wait....us?" *giles murders the fuck out of Ben*
didn't get the quote quite right, but still as you said good moment. he's a good man, but not THAT good of a man. (of course I coul be misrmebering entirely)
I'm sorry but you forgot the most well rounded, thoughtfully written and touchingly crafted character in the whole of the show.
Justice for Caveman Buffy
Fire bad, beer good.
So what did we learn about beer?
Foamy!
It’s a pretty solid list. I’d have put Wesley and Harmony further up on the list, but that’s mostly based on their “Angel” appearances. I would recommend at least watching the Faith 2 Parter from Angel season 1 since it resolves her original character arc and acts as bridge to her later appearances on BTVS. Also there’s a muppet fight in the Angel season 5 that’s a lot of fun.
Came to the comments to say basically the same thing. Wesley, Harmony and Cordellia in Angel make me love them more in Buffy.
It's frustrating but also weirdly ironic how all of the characters here that also appeared in Angel would turn into S or A tier characters. Even with and despite all the horrible revelations around how whedon treated Chrisma Carpenter - Cordelia was an incredible and wonderful character in that show.
I thought the same thing. I understand why Daniel has chosen not to watch it, and really a character's development shouldn't be reliant on another source. However a lot of those he didn't like much or ranked lower grew to become so amazing in Angel.
Yep faiths best stuff, and depit charismas treatment on rthe show, its thank god firt not whedons show but writr who let her get amazing, and then, and angel really shine as morally grey antihero,
dammit weasley the best. Angel really picked up th character buffy let down and mad them, great (if seasons yeah)
Also i would watch angel because how amazing she can be. to hammer down how horribl whedon is, and its the superior show.
I would recommand it to see how great a character she can be (the series is not wheons thing reall, especially the first seasons wher she is amazing. ) Seriously daniel, its a much bette show and if you care what whedon did, watch it to see her at her best too.
An wesley. And its way more adult, and evil lawyers.
If he really cares what Joss had done, he wouldn't have watched Buffy in the first place.
@@omarf.4146 Oh I didn't think it had to do with Joss but his dislike for Angel and what the whole premise of that character is. The whole turning a stalker pedophile into a hero of his own show, but maybe it was related to Joss.
Completely agree about Joyce, she was a horrible mother. First time Buffy told her the truth she put her in psych ward and the second time basically threw her out
Yeah I totally agree 💯
That first point was a retcon, so I struggle to judge Joyce by it. Everything else, honestly she was 100% in the right.
Joyce didn't understand at first, but Buffy also didn't take the time to help her understand. And when Joyce felt her kid slipping away from her, she had a negative trauma reaction and tried being the authoritarian. And when Joyce eventually came around, she became one of Buffy's most vocal supporters until her death. Her worries were the same ones any reasonable parent would have, we just see them as unreasonable because the show focuses on Buffy's perspective
@@tompadfoot3065 Agreed: I love moments like "This Year's Girl", where she is completely confident about Buffy, and is almost on the same wave-length as Buffy when she crashes through (I believe she expresses something similar in "Helpless"): Joyce goes through an arc of her own through the show, and the interesting thing is that you could write the series from her point of view. By the time we have to say goodbye to her, she has come a long way.
(Incidentally, of course, Giles isn't the only one on that police car: if you're giving him credit for that, you need to include Joyce).
I agree the whole Angel storyline is very creepy. Let’s not forget though, Anya was also about a thousand years old when she went after Xander, who was still in high school and a minor at the time 😬I swear that I’ll never tell I guess 🤐
But besides his relationship with Buffy, he’s a great character. His whole redemption arc was interesting and he grew in his spin off
Actually a really great point, no one seems to either realise or care when the genders are reversed
@@Metal-Spark it could also, maybe, be that she was extremely less experienced and worldly or whatever overall too...so maybe, behaviorally, it just wasn't as immediately obvious? idk ..I'm still with you, on that, tho.
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 I always found that odd. When we first meet Anya she's pretending to be a student before she gives Cordelia her wish, and she seemed to be doing fine. Once she became human she just had absolutely no idea how to interact with people, I always thought it was weird because she's been around humans for quite some time.
@@anatoldenevers237 Probably just poor continuity, there, honestly-since[ if I remember it right] they did not originally intend to keep her character around and essentially retconned in this way of not actually writing her off the show kind of last-minute or something? 🤔😅🤷♀️ 🤷 That's something that I always thought was weird too, but could really only shrug and just try not to think about it too hard. Loll
Man I really, really hope Daniel decides to watch Angel just so I can see all his interesting choices that would inevitably happen in his character tier list for that show. Plus it's a great show despite its issues, just like Buffy.
I onestly imagine that whenever someone says issues and Angel in the same sentence, they are actually screaming i their head "Season 4" on repeat. And they are right, that shit with Cordelia was a BIG NO
Wesley might be my favorite television character of all time and I really think you should give Angel a shot purely for his arc. Although Angel and Cordy are vastly improved upon there as well.
Angelis such a good moreally grey antihero, (a wes gets later) , i think he would love it too much tomiss it )
and cordy is actually treated great while whedon isnt rally involved in anything big there .
Yeah, Angel took 3 of my least favorite characters in Buffy and turned them all of them into characters I either like or adore. Wesley's arc is just fantastic, and the resolution to Faith's character was also very good.
@@darkelf1402 Agreed. Also I'm just a mark for Lorne. I love him and even loved how done he was with the dimension he was from specifically because art wasn't a thing. His obsession with music, as a musician I remember loving it.
Wesley’s Arc on Angel is one of the best character transformations I’ve ever seen on t.v.
If you watched any episode with Wesley on Buffy or season 1-2ish of angel then showed someone season five Wesley they would be like “what the fuuuuck how did we get from there to here?”
@@derrickpanciera5644 Yeah, Wesley is incredible. There's honestly only a handful of characters I would say I've seen have better arcs than his, Walter White for instance(and several characters from The Wire).
Its been clarified that by the time Cordelia is comically flirting with Wesley she's 18. It was played as a joke, particularly their kissing scene and afterwards both of them realise how dumb they were to be pursuing each other. By the time they're working together through the spinoff it doesn't come up, so I don't dock points against Wesley for it.
It does come up. They kiss again, and it goes better because Wes is cool now.
@@davidwilson6577
You're right, I think in season S3E1. Maybe on a different occasion too.
@@atris7722 it happens because Cordelia is trying to pass off the visions onto him so I think it's season 1. And it's brushed off pretty quickly, just a wee call-back.
@@davidwilson6577
Oh I remember now.
Yeah, I don't get the hate. He wasn't in a position of authority over her. Plus she was 18, and let us not forget he had the emotional maturity of a scone. All good. I'm a guy in my 30s and would absolutely date an 18-year-old if we had enough in common. People need to chill. There's too much infantilization of young women in modern culture.
Buffy is a TV show that defined the generation that watched it and the generations of TV shows that came after. It aged so well and it will be forever iconic. I grew up with Buffy and she's still in my heart.
I’m sure this will be an incredibly easy video to follow as someone who’s never seen the show. I know the show’s pretty wild, so I’m excited to be thoroughly confused 👍🏼
Okay, I get it. I get it. I get it...
...but I'm crying Angel The Show character development tears.
There are SO MANY characters in Buffy that get a massive glow up in Angel.
Wesley is still my favorite character of all time, and watching Buffy only fans digest this fact is always amusing but depressing lol!
Wes and hi intruiguing relationship with also intersting illyria ooh
And honestly, angel shows what cordy could be. because it mak her a better characr and shows her growth will she i still herself. And actual feminine and badass while human.
Same with Cordelia and Angel himself
Me too lol, I winced just slightly when he Daniel put Wesley at the bottom. His development is SO good, I went from detesting him when he first was introduced to adoring him by the end. Very good writing and acting for his character.
@@ethanf6136 Can't say Cordelia simply because of season 4, that season really screwed over her character imo. But yes, it was going very well for her up until then
You should watch Angel. In many ways I think it's a better series than Buffy. If nothing else it adds way more depth and likeability to Angel, Wesley, and Cordelia.
Yep angel, really made me hate what he did to cordy, because as long as whedon was busy with buffy, she was such a great character.
And wesley, and angel are actual deep fun intruiging characters . And its adult, an actual fun adult show. season 4 is mixed. But the thing is , its not really a whedon show, its rom the dudes who did grimm later, and thats why its moe mature and better. And ages far better..
Why would he watch Angel when he gave a very weak reason for disliking him.
@@joshramirez7 Angel sucks in Buffy, I agree. But his show was a turning point that gave him a personality and all of the things that Daniel likes about Buffy is also explored and done well on Angel.
Ethan Rayne is responsible for some of the best filler episodes AND Giles moments in the show. He's basically just a plot device to bring out Giles's dark side, which is ALWAYS awesome. Definitely underrated.
So much of it due to the late, great Robin Sachs (who also gave Sarras some dangerous and menacing sass in "Galaxy Quest").
Being the same age as the characters were portrayed always leaves this show with a level of nostalgia that really has a special place for me. The music, fashion, and honestly humor really does take me back.
Same here. I was one year younger than the characters while the show was airing, and it made me really connect with it. It's still my favorite show ever.
I remember when you first mentioned Buffy on the channel and the dismissive way that you talked about it inspired me to write my most well-thought-out comment ever. It makes me so happy to see that you've finished it and understand how monumental this show was despite some of the creepy things that seemed less creepy when it was airing.
Oh Tara, that death scene was so good… I actually managed to experience it twice, I watched it really young and forgot about the twists in later seasons. And then I watched it recently and it got me in the feels again. It still hurts…
Yeah I rewatched the show a few months ago watching her death scene really hurt
My soul still hurts from that scene
I love Wesley.
The development he has from his first episode in Buffy to his time on Angel is really amazing.
Angel is really good (excluding that horrid 4th season and what they did to Cordelia in there).
Also Angel and Wesley hooked up with adults in there.
I keep forgetting that tey didn't in Buffy :/
Also, Warren is great. He shows us that "Gun" is more powerful than "beating up the slayer with fists"
Wesley's arc in Angel alone makes it worth watching, imo. It is absolutely masterful character writing. I have the same gripes as everyone else with Season 4, but I think the show makes up for it in leaps and bounds in the earlier and later seasons.
I love that he used a pic of hot wesley from angel too, which I think should've caused more questions given how wesley was portrayed on buffy
Warren is unironically a fantastic villain.
Yep and even if you hate th later treatment, the earlier seasons where whedon was barely involved, show how much dirty cordy was done and how fleched out great she is. Honestly , i wouldnt care if i hadnt seen hat she was robbed of to begin with
A angel and later illyria, oooh. An angel is actualy allowed to live his potential as morally grey struggling antihero,that is very funny in his akwardness and self seriousness. And i lov that cordy and wes and co just dot let him brood that it becomes funny akward XD.
Overall? Not bad, kid.
I will say that watching Angel would probably change some of your opinions. Wesley, for example, is (IMO) the most well-developed character in television history.
Xander is a really tough character for me to place. He has a great heart and some of the best moments in the show but he also has some problematic views that aren't challenged enough or resolved.
And angel, and cordy. Angel really had btter treatment of female characters i feel (later that is , ..., but before,they rare just capable people that do things. , not stereotyped)
When Xander has his good moments, he's great. When he has his bad momnts...he's really, really bad.
I love Spike, and I've met James Marsters and he's also a really good guy, I even asked him about Dresden and he was funnily enough the first person I spoke to in person about the series who's actually read them. Good memories.
You gotta watch Angel. Wesley has a character arc bigger than Superman's trajectory while leaping a tall building in a single bound.
A lot of Spike's fluctuating writing came from Joss Whedon not liking Spike but he quickly became a fan favorite and had to keep him. Spike was meant to have the first story arc he was in and then be gone for good.
Okay, the complaint about Angel is really legitimate but you should watch Angel. It's a great show, he's a good character, and man you would not BELIEVE the arc for Wesley and Cordelia on that show. It's truly insane.
oh no! the temptation to RE-watch ALL of Buffy (& Angel - sadly cut short before it's time) is now so so so strong - so much new content out there to watch, but Buffy is *SO* good - (and bunnies are so very evil and dangerous ! 🐰🐇🐰)
What do they need such good eyesight for anyway??
@@jrnipmuc horrible, nasty, terrible things I'm sure...
I have to admit... The character of Willow left such an impact on me that my oldest daughter is named after her.
The mayor is still my favorite villian. I'm stuck between either Spike or Giles being my favorite character.
Yeah the mayor was a great villain
"Well, gosh!"
I'm also torn on Spike and Giles as number 1, I'm disappointed I had to scroll so far to see some love for Spike lol
@@Metal-Spark Honestly I'm surprised, I thought everyone loved Spike(I admit I've never liked him as much as everyone else, but it's surprising seeing him not mentioned often in these comments).
You should absolutely watch Angel, the more I get older the more I think I prefer it over Buffy (and I adore Buffy).
I think Buffy was overall a better show, but yes Angel is also incredible, and also I think Angel's finale is probably one of the best ever, whereas Buffy's finale was somewhat disappointing to me.
Having seen only Buffy, I understand the placements of Cordelia and Wesley, but their arcs on Angel make them two of my favorite characters in the Buffyverse.
I understand your reasons for not wanting to watch Angel. I would be genuinely interested in seeing how your opinion of Wesley changes based on his arc in that show though.
But Angel really grows in his show and is a better character
Great video, I have been waiting for this since the mix-up last week. Thank you. I missed Vampire Willow and Dark Willow characters. Bored now!
I understand why you don't intend to watch Angel. I wish you would and you do have the choice to watch Angel season 1-3 just for Cordelia's arc, it is a very satisfying end for her if you stop there. Then of course there is season 5 where you get the best buddy storyline of 2003. And there are, as many others have written, so many Buffy characters getting their arcs further developed and finished in Angel. And of course, Angel is a darker more grown-up show than Butty. Fingers crossed you change your mind.
Daniel, can you please do other character tier lists for classic fantasy and sci fi shows from the 90's to mid 00's like Farscape, Angel, X Files, Babylon 5, Stargate SG1, Hercules, Xena, Futurama, etc.
Imo the 90's to mid 00's was tv's true golden age for science fiction and fantasy shows. So much better than the mediocre sci fi and fantasy shows that we have today.
I'd love a B5 or Stargate listing :-)
Indeed. Don forget stargate atlantis (and angel please, its too good to be judged on a dude who didnt even helm the show for most of the time. the 2 other eecutives did very well.
hmm don't forget that Xena and Hercules are widely considered as bad shows... And I could cite a lot of good fantasy and sci-fi shows recent: The Boys, Stranger Things, The Expanse, Arcane, first seasons of Game of Thrones, Invincible, The Dragon Prince, ...
Firefly above all.
Farscape is totally Daniels type of show. He probably would like stargate as well
Gotta come to my girl Joyce's defense - she was under the influence of a (technobabble) love potion at the time that she didn't believe Buffy was being abused. She was never the perfect mom, which I think was very intentional and even called out by her when she and Buffy have it out at the beginning of Season 3, so I can appreciate people not liking her. But you can't base it on a time when there was literal mind control going on.
JOyce....is complicated. She has her bad moments, her good moments, her great moments. She's not the best mum, but she tries.
@@sarafontanini7051 My own mother, who was wonderful, said at one point that no one gets an "A" in parenting. But the important thing is start from a point of caring and love. Joyce does that; and by the end of her run, I understand why the people around her do love her.
I understand your mixed feelings towards Spike, but just remember for the majority of the show he has no soul, which in the context of the show means he has no moral compass.
Much of what Spike does, even the most reprehensible things, are a direct consequence of him trying to come to terms with his feelings while not fully being able to comprehend right from wrong.
I'm pretty confident I know exactly what scene you're talking about, and while it's a painful watch, I think it's a great character moment that explores a dark subject matter. I can understand it being uncomfortable, but I don't think it can be called bad. And, if memory serves, he still has no soul at that point.
I personally do buy Spike's redemption. It's a slow build through multiple seasons with a ton of ups and downs along the way, I'm not sure how else they could've done it to make it better.
The problem is people love and excuse spike for being a monster and attempting kill and separate the gang but crucify Xander for being human. Yet spike is Still portrayed as a good guy because of a chip. Years later I realize spike is just writing flaw after writing flaws, and was not needed when you look at the success of season 3.
@@robertoglencoco7861 I've seen some people argue Spike was the best part of the series, but yeah, season 3 is probably the best season of either show and he's in it for all of one episode.
Wait, you read The Dresden Files BEFORE watching Buffy?? Now you have to re-read the whole series. There are HEAVY Buffy and Spike references.
I appreciate your reasoning for putting Xander in the Like Tier. He does grow, inconsistently, but it is there. In my heart, however, he will always get the electric chair lmao.
Xander is the LEAST problematic Scooby tbh people just blame him for his actions in season 1 forever.
@@calistusjay60 that's an insane take. Xander being the LEAST problematic?? Not only is he an authorial insert for Joss Whedon to play his nice guy routine, he's also consistently the most sexist character throughout with his actions and his words. Like I said, he arcs out of some of that but it's definitely not just a season 1 thing.
@@jacobedelman-dolan4528 Buffy: tried to kill everyone, victim blames domestic abuse victim, double standards on killing Anya despite keeping willow/spike alive for the same crimes, racist jokes towards Kendra and the first Slayer and robin.
Willow: Almost/and actually follows through with using magic to take away people’s free will, make Oz never feel love again. Bullies Anya for being blunt. Sexually assaulted Tara. Almost killed Dawn in a car crash, almost killed everyone when turning evil.
Xander: Was jealous of angel, bitter after being rejected by Buffy (for like a couple episodes). Makes some skeevy jokes every now and then. Supported Riley, suggesting Buffy shared blame for his cheating. Sexualising women in his dreams.
Compared to the others, his crimes are more “icky” and less actually severe or harmful.
He's THE human trainwreck, but we love him.
The writers did tend to regress him to fit the show sadly.
@@calistusjay60 For real, what Willow did to Tara is maybe the worst thing any of the 'good' characters did in the show (I'm excluding pre-Season 7 Spike, since he's an evil character on the good team). I don't think I realised how bad it was when I was younger, but as an adult, Jesus Christ. Like, the way people talk about how Seeing Red tainted Spike irrevocably for them, yet mind-wipe Willow is just fine?
P.S. Seeing Red was awful, but after that Spike regains his soul, and holding souled Spike accountable for unsouled Spike's actions after the distinction between soul and no-soul was made so clear with Angel feels unfair.
Xandar is the worst person on this show. Whenever he had a chance to throw buffy under the bus he did. He was a snitch and never get over the fact of being friendzoned by buffy. He betrayed all of his girlfriends, he left anya at their wedding day. He throws buffy out of the house in the last episodes without any empathy. He hated her for dating spike and angel and riley. Uffff hate him. Electric chair to me
Willow arguably, is also one of the best villains for me
I'll be honest, I'm torn on Angel (the character). I absolutely understand the whole sexualising a minor thing but I think my brain just switches that criticism off because I know it's not real.
I take the on-screen chemistry and writing at face value without thinking about it too hard. I can't really justify it logically, but it just doesn't bother me when I actually watch the show because it's not a realistic portrayal of their relative ages - at no point does it feel like there's a huge age gap, even though on paper there is, so my brain just doesn't register it.
All that said, I really think you should watch Angel (the show). It adds some much needed development to the side characters from Buffy, expands the world in interesting ways and gives Angel a chance to shine without the Buffy relationship being the core of who he is on screen.
I think it’s because since he’s a vampire and was suppose to be sired around the age 18/19 so you can’t really put modern morals because if you do then technically Buffy would be doing it with a dead corpse
Your visceral reaction to Tara let's me know I'm in the right place. I had no idea you were even embarking on your Buffy journey, but I'm glad you did! Curious to see if you will continue into the comic seasons, I've not yet done that myself. Great video!
Adding my voice to the chorus of people saying to watch Angel. In my opinion it's the better show in spite of some poor writing decisions here and there (probably mostly Joss's fault). If you made it through Buffy, there's no reason to swear off Angel. Definitely don't miss out on it, as it has the best characters and arcs in the Buffyverse.
I loved buffy's arc from Wano . Probably some of the best moments for Buffy and the crew in this one arc. Good stuff . Bravo Oda!!!! ( Edit : Daniel .....u took away the heart you gave ......)
Did you edit after he hearted it?
Yep, editing a comment deletes the heart. Learned the hard way.
You edited it my guy. Lol that takes the heart.
It's a safety thing. A TH-camr can heart a comment then the commenter could edit the comment to say some fucked up shit and still have that heart?
Nope. Nope.
@@DanielGreeneReviews oopsie
Warren: the Kai Winn (Star Trek DS9) of Buffy. A character you HATE because they are written & performed SO well
I feel this comment to the core
If you're going to be hating on Angel for the pedo stuff, it's kind of strange you don't dislike Anya. She is like over 1000 years old and dates a high school boy.
He is a hypocrite clown
I can't help but think of the snarky, tell me you haven't watched Angel, without telling me you haven't watched Angel, but I'm genuinely curious if your opinion will change upon watching his spin off show, which I believe is right up your alley, given it involves supernatural detectives agencies, etc.
Meh. I think the only characters that Angel really moves from where he has them are Cordy and Wesely.
And I guess maybe Angel himself.
@@thewalrusaurus I'm not sure what you really mean by that. Are you meaning who Daniel's choosing? Either way, going between shows in the canonical order, I found a pretty fun experience that added a lot more context, come the later seasons.
0:59 As someone who's only watched the Angel spinoff, that sentence hit me like a truck 🤣
Top tier considering both Angel and Buffy: Wesley, Spike, Cordy (despite her character assassination in ATS Season 4)
This might be nostalgia talk as i havent seen Buffy for over a decade, but Spike had some of the rawest lines in the series, "You were cursed with your soul, I fought for mine!" And maybe because its James Marsters. But he deserves the Love ranking and i will fight you on that.
Angel is a really great show as well in my opinion. You're missing out by not watching it. Really enjoyed the video though!
As a whole, Angel is a better show, though the better seasons of Buffy are superior to the lesser seasons of Angel.
While I agree Xander is not in the same tier as Buffy and Willow and Giles I think the writing at least some of it was intentional and not inconsistent. Xander constantly battled with “I’m the third wheel” compared to buffy and willows smarts and Witchery. He was the “normal” guy and with that he was flawed. Some of his choices and comments sucked but you also could understand where he was coming from. Even if it fluctuates between Xander wanting to be a part of the scoobies, and him lashing out and being a bit of an ass at times.
I agree and that's why over the series he drifted down to the "Dislike" category for me. He seemed to resent Buffy for not being with him, and Willow for being more special than him, and even Anya to the point that he wasn't a good partner. By the end of the show I thought he was the worst is the main cast.
I think you hit did an excellent job with this list. At first I was shocked with some of your choices, but as you explained them and as the list fleshed out, I feel it really very accurate. I'd love to seem Avatar: Last Air Bender get this treatment (I'm gonna search your archives in a moment). I first watched it as a way to bond with the older children of the sibling group we adopted and got hooked. I've watched it through at least twice and maybe more watching snippets. It has some of the strongest character development I've seen and is just an awesome story, perhaps my favorite TV series ever. Thanks for doing what you do!
As a Buffy fan, like set my VCR to record episodes in the 90's, go to a James Marsters concert at age 13 fan, I agree with this list. Inconsistent writing and odd character choices really do influence a lot with this series. Was it perfect? Hell no. Is Joss Whedon horrible enough that I regretted my tattoos for a month or so? Yes. But this is still my go to comfort show. Admittedly, I put Spike at the top tier but I choose to ignore some of the VERY stupid choices made there. A++ Daniel.
I do think you should check out Angel, I totally get your problems with his character but it also expands a lot on Cordelia and Wesley, while there are a few minutes the writing shits the bed with those characters those are only a few moments out of five seasons which are otherwise of a very solid quality. It also gives us Lorne, who never fails to make me smile whenever hes on screen.
Then again I did last watch Buffy when I was like 14 so maybe my views would change if I watched again as an adult
Love: Faith, Spike, Buffy, Anya, Willow
Electric Chair: Military institute woman, Riley, Warren
I adore BTVS but I think your assessment is fair. Giles, Drusilla and Spike are my top tier. I think you missed one though - a fun villain sidekick - Mr Trick, I kind of liked him.
i love how you say it's been out for more than a decade, it premiered 25 years ago, you were a toddler when it first came out.
After a decade of watching and re-watching and then re-watching after therapy... Spike is top-tier. Large in part to James Marsters performance, but also in some part to the writing. He is the only one who doesn't try to argue Buffy out of her emotions (provide scathing commentary, yes, but argue or gaslight, no). He just lets her have her emotions, sitting quietly, being there for her (I'm not counting during their affair, that was several levels of messed up that undermined Spike's development to that point, thanks Joss 😖).
I agree that Buffy declined in the last couple of seasons partly due to the actress starting to burn out, but to me it actually seems honest character-wise, the constant undermining and questioning of her feelings from Willow and Xander and Giles... been there and it totally flattens you from the inside out. Hate Xander because when Spike says he loves Buffy, Xander immediately projects and makes it sexual (I mean, it was on some level for Spike, but like all his early efforts are so sincere and dorky and very William, not sexual advances) and he also pressures Buffy into making it work with Riley who freaking cheated on her. Hate Willow for abusing Tara and generally being self-absorbed. And screw Giles for abandoning Buffy at her emotionally weakest, that wiped out all his father-figure points with fire. I wish Spike, Tara, and Anya took Dawn and left the Scoobies' abuse and neglect when things started to fall apart S6 and lived happily ever after.
In Giles's defense, they had to write him out of the show because Anthony Stewart Head (the actor who plays Giles) wasn't available for much of season 6. When Buffy dies at the end of season 5, a lot of the crew thought the show was over because they weren't renewed for another season. That's part of the reason they kill her, as a possible series finale. Anthony Head moved back to England and was working on another show. Then the Buffy was saved by a different network, and brought back for seasons 6 and 7. They had to find an excuse for Giles to be gone most of the season, despite Buffy coming back to life.
@@supermonkey321 While I have to imagine that TV has to be one of the hardest things to write for with so many variables, I don't think the writers had to torpedo Giles that badly. They could have had him off investigating things or at least had him calling in to check on the gang. Even if they had him leave due to his own emotional weakness, they could have had him work to do better in S7. Instead, Giles tries to dictate policy like "I abandoned you Buffy so you could grow up, but I don't like how you decided to grow up and handle things so now I'm going to be petulant about your choices." It just leaves a sour taste for me for that character. That's the writer's fault, not the actor's. Anthony is lovely and I love a lot of Giles moments early in the series.
My MAN you've gotta watch angel bro. For real it's worth the pain imo.
The puppet scene alone is worth it
I watched an interview with James Marsters and Joss Whedon hated that he became a series regular. Joss wanted him to have a guest roll and then die but the fans loved him so much the network wanted to bring him back and Joss was so against it and mad that he treated James like shit on set. He told a story how Joss shoved him against the wall and basically told him if he had it his way he'd have been dead. He was telling that story in response to a question he was asked about Charisma Carpenter making her accusations and if he ever experienced anything like that. I'm suprised the whole cast was able to put out the performances they did with such a tyrant of a director.
Onestly james Masters is arguably the guy that talks the best about Joss overall, everytime he talks about him, he seems to have great esteem for the man (or at least his writing talent). Also while it is true that Joss hated Spike, I think he came around to it, since in most episodes directded and written by Whedon Spike always had a pivital role, like in Once More with Feelings where he saves Buffy, and in Chosen when he has the ultimate sacrifice, and he even came to Angel, and Whedon was willing to pay Marsters extra to have him on the show. Joss has even stated how Spike was arguably the most developed character in all of his works. The reasonWhedon hated Spike was because vampire were supposed to be pure evil things that represented tenns insecurities and were meant to be defeated, with the exeption of Angel, however Spike was so popular that everyone wanted him on set, and that went against everything he belived in, which even James Marsters understood. Still Whedon is a shitty person that did awful things on set, though
Willow is a character I have a love/hate relationship with because she's a big example of bi-erasure.
I never thought of it though way. Interesting!
Exactly 💯.
Exactly
@@DanielGreeneReviews As a bisexual woman who really came to terms as a teenager with the help of the Willow/Tara relationship, I feel like it was very gross the way Joss had Willow just man-bash once they were together. It was very straight-male, stereotype almost as if the inference was that her bad experience with Oz "made" her gay. A lot of people just don't understand that you don't have to be just one thing, you can be many. It's just kinda narrow, that's all. I say this as someone who's watched the series multiple times. 😄
If she says she's a lesbian, she's a lesbian 🤷♂️
Damn, this was a real trip down memory lane!
Some of the characters here really gave me flashbacks, one ones I hadn't thought about in a long time, such as Adam, the principle, Glory, etc..
I went through High school watching this show when it first came out and Giles, Willow, Oz, Spike and Dru are my top picks. Totally agree with you on the Dawn, after her arc she felt like character bloat. Just stuck in there cause they haven't figured out how to kill her yet.
Ben is definitely electric chair material. He's a medical professional who summoned a demon to murder a bunch of mentally ill people because they were inconvenient to him (one of whom was Joyce). Then he tried to help murder Dawn to save his own skin. He can ride the lightning!
Some interesting choices there... :P I get the reasoning behind most of them though, even if I don't agree.
But I Will Not Stand for this injustice to Wesley Wyndam-Pryce, one of the GOAT characters in genre TV history! ;-) I've always preferred Angel (the show), for my money it got consistently better over 5 seasons, compared to Buffy's ups and downs from year to year. Sadly, the recent revelations about what was happening behind the scenes has tainted what was once one of my favourite TV shows... :'(
I would say Angel got better for three seasons, but season 4 was pretty awful. then season 5 made up for it. And yes, Wesley is an incredible character, I might honestly say he's almost Walter White level(almost, not quite).
Totally agree! Although, Spike will always be my favorite character!
Angel actually did NOT stalk Buffy before knowing she was the slayer.
Re: the oversexualization of minors by adults. This is a problem I've always had with the show as well, but it's not just adult men/teenage women. Anya is over 1100 years old when she meets and develops a crush on Xander. Xander is also sexualized by several adults (Jenny, Buffy's mom, the substitute teacher), whether through spells or just naturally at various times. There is also the episode where adult Buffy straddles a high school student, that Anya and Willow are also after.
In my opinion Spike is a great representation of a morally gray character, definitely my favorite male character in the series Giles being my second. Willow is the best Female character I watched the show more for her story line!
It's so interesting seeing how new watchers of BtVS in this time think of the show vs me with my nostalgia filled eyes view it. I was obsessed with the show when I was younger, like collected everything I could from it and valued my dvd box sets above all else haha. Spike was my all time favorite character from the show, I absolutely loved him. While some scenes it felt like Joss was personally trying to piss James off and make him miserable (we all know THAT scene), overall, he was just the best. The Buffy/Spike relationship had so many layers there and I always really enjoyed it, even if I wish we got more of it. The Angel love always pissed me off, because he was held up as a beacon of all that's good in Buffy's eyes, when he was shitty dude and went after teenagers as an evil vampire, then as good vampire, perverted that into "loving" a teenager who he had literally nothing to talk about with besides the evil they were fighting and couldn't even keep his evil in his pants. The fact that Spike went and got a soul and overcame his demon, even when he had chances to go back to being his old self...ugh, I love that. (despite the shitty way it was instigated) Looking back now there are obviously issues with the show and how some things were handled, and the icky post-reveal of Joss Whedon's...everything, but the show is so much a part of who I am now, I can't even pretend this show isn't watched with rose colored glasses haha. Buffy herself, the way they used the monsters to tell a coming of age journey for an adult was a masterstroke of genius. I do highly recommend watching Angel is you enjoyed Buffy, even if you hate Angel himself, the show makes him a lot better there. Well....sort of. lol. But a wonderful show none the less!
You really need to watch Angel, not just because it fills in storylines that both start and end in Buffy. Your opinion of Darla, and especially Wesley will change drastically. Both characters go through amazing growth there.
damn Joyce being ranked at the same tier as Kennedy. This dude woke up and decided peace was never an option
Spike is my favorite character in the buffyverse, though I will admit a lot of my opinion also extends to Angel. I actually really liked the noir elements of Angel and thought it was stronger than the later seasons of Buffy.
My opinion on Xander is… mixed.
Pro:
Good with Anya
Saved Willow from herself
Saved Buffy season 1
Was proactive season 1 when it came to dealing with vampires (Angel)
Con:
Bad timing with jokes
While everyone else keeps leveling up, he is left behind.
I still don’t understand how he’s not ground beef half the time.
The “breakup” with Anya.
His obsession with Buffy season 1.
And h was a jerk an never grew out of that. It would be diffrent if he was also shon gay which at least i could have bought he was selfhating,but as it stands, he never grew out of being a jerk.
"no more fun and games"
Miscellanious thoughts:
-Yeah Xander has his good moments...but when he's bad, he's REALLY bad, particularly early on when his characterisation is based largely on his attraction to Buffy and his insane jealousy of Angel, which regardless of your feelings on Angel does make Xander look like such a possessive, selfish douche. His bad moments do lend credence to his fears in the wedding episode though, as he worries about basicaly being a bad person who'd hurt Anya and past actions have shown that, yeah, HE can be a douche. Sadly don't rememerb his final line so can't comment on that but yah, the writers do have a problem of defaulting to Xander being the comic relief guy which can lead to some tonal problems. But yeah he has some good stuff too.
-The Master is a fun villain. What makes him fun is that he's while a little TOO straight of a evil vampire big bad, he still has enough to him to not make him cliche. Like he makes hammy proclamations about his schemes and big grand evil speeches, and then turns to his minions for critiques on his speeches, and general fun moments that make it feel like he's a partial satirisation of the big bad. He's still a big threat, but he can be fun as hell. A good starting point for the best villains of the show subverting your expectations.
-The Mayor is THE best villain in the show, bar none. He's funny, he's goofy, he's scary,and is possibly the weakest of the villains power wise and yet due to his personality and sheer scope of his plans and presence he's one of the msot effective villains in the story. It's just such a fun idea, this goofy satire of a typical 50's-esque personality who hates swearing and acts friendly and polite who is ALSO a homicidal monster who worships demons and can manipualte and use people while ALSO having a genuine love for some people even as he is using them.
-Adam....yeah sadly I have to agree. Part of the issue is how late into Season Five he's introduced as the Big Bad, part of it is how little he ends up doing, part of it is his final battle is a magically empowered curbstomp making his buildup feel like a waste, and most of it is he lacks a lot of personality the past big bads had. I LOVED his concept, this weird take on frankenstein who has cyborg bits and bits of dead demons but he's just so underutilised and half-baked and generally not interesting as a character beynd his concept. Great costume work though.
-Giles is great. Willing to do some shady things for the best of all (and doesn't even try and jusitfy it, showing some great self introspection), and will do ANYTHING for his surrogate family. Also just a fun guy who grew from the fairly standard long suffering intellectual annoyed at the kids and their wayyyys characterisation he had early on.
Definitely watch angel, it’s just as good if not better in a lot of aspects. Wesley and spike are great as are characters like Lorne and fred
I would argue Angel is better on his own show than Buffy.
He's far better
I do you hope you give angel a try. I always loved what they did with the characters.
spike position breaks my heart, but i get it.
now tell me ur opinion of buffy learning she has to die against the master, and the episode of the body, and hush, the beauty of i only have eyes for you, the ending of season 5.
and u have to watch angel! bloody puppet! faith! loren! the finale!
This is really hard regardless of what you put. This show literally grew through a generation of people, it's in the hearts of most gen y's (like me) and we watched this show going through similar points in our lives (in the character and relationship growth sense obviously). Still Spike not in love is criminal 😂
Your Glory love and Harmony hate confuses me but otherwise your list is solid. Harmony cracks me up. (Her role in the show and continued presence in the comics gives me strong Buggy the Clown vibes.)
I’d say watch Angel for all the bad Buffy characters to get good, especially Wes, but with everything that Whedon did with his female characters in that show, to the most badly handled love triangle in TV history, to f**king Connor (don’t ask), I have to say it’s not worth it. Just look up Fred compilations; she’s the best.
Also-Justice for Gunn; good Lord.
Yay for the Giles love! He has so many quotable lines, and Anthony Head is a master of the stage fall :D Also I really think you should give Angel a go, you could just skip season 4 if you want. Wesleys character arc is brilliant and I think you would absolutely love Lorne and Fred!
Some characters develop a lot more in Angel (Wes and Harmony) but your list is pretty solid. The Mayor will always have a special place in my heart. 😈😈
To be fair to Angel, he didn't randomly decide to stalk Buffy because he might have a crush on her. Whistler asked him to do it in order for Angel to get to know her and decide if he wanted to protect her.
Well anyone that watched the show would know that. This guy clearly did not
@@babadoudidadouda I was going to say this. Angel is not stalking her in a sexual way, he’s watching out for her because he’s trying to… oh wait they reveal that bit in an Angel flashback, the season 4 one with Faith amirite?
If Angel is creepy how can Spike not be creepy! Spike tries to assault her in season 6 when he claimed to love her. I also agree with the other comments that mention Anya, if you're upset about age gaps I think the 1,000 year old demon has to be the weirdest, she's older than Spike and Angel combined haha
He's a hypocrite that's why. Don't bother with this clown.
As someone who has just finished the series and not even started the video, I already know we're going to disagree a lot here but I'm in for the ride!
Pretty good evaluation. I'd still recommend you watch Angel as there is a lot of good stuff there despite some of the crap.
It's a shame you won't watch Angel. Aside from season 4 it's fantastic.
oh Daniel - please don't boycott/deprive yourself of Angel esp if you're using the reason that Whedon is a complete (insert relevant insult here) as a human being - it makes no sense to watch Buffy but not Angel - because it is next level, well, everything - in many ways it's the grown up (while still very hilarious) version of Buffy - a LOT more character development, existing (including Cordelia (Charisma Carpenter) and new - like Lorne aka Krevlornswath of the Deathwok Clan- and some really awesome work/story arcs/characters from Amy Acker...and, and, and well esp Spike, who gets even more hilarious, plus, and - well just please watch it (the first season is not so great - improves significantly after that...)
And no one should miss "Smile Time"! Wonderful even if he still hates Angel (the character) after four seasons.
And whedon actually th first 3 season too busy with bufy , he let the hadwriters and producers do their ay more mature show that actually has good female characters that are just good. Which i guess is my proof that the nuance there that whedon didnt have much influence firt seasons.
As a long time Buffy fan, I do agree with most of your tier list, just for different reasons. I would have put Xander in dislike, for instance, because I feel like for every good moment we get with the guy, there’s a moment after that makes me dislike him all over again. He just rubbed me the wrong way when we met him, he was like the nice guy troupe who has a unrequited crush on the pretty main character and it makes him petty sometimes.
But FUN FACT! The actor who plays Xander has an identical twin brother who played his evil doppelgänger in one episode of the show.
Yeah, while Warren is peak incel, Xander has a LOT of Nice Guy energy that's pervasive throughout the show and I don't think he ever grows out of it. Plus him and Dawn in the comics just eeks me out.
It's a shame that Nicholas Brendan suffers so much from his continued battle with addiction and alcoholism
Oh, you should really watch Angel. It's not as consistent as Buffy, but it's highs (which are plenty) are every bit as high as Buffy's.
About Angel and the age issue: Doesn't that go for Spike as well then? And Anya? But I always imagine vampires or whatever that they're stuck at the age they were when they got turned and thus are still attracted to humans that age. But then I think Spike was a bit younger than Angel in real life so fair enough. But I'm team Spuffy, so I'm biased.
You should really watch Angel…. It’s…. Equal to…if not better than Buffy as it goes… or maybe not better but…. It has a somewhere different tone… and Angel is a far greater character than what he stars as in Buffy
You’re also missing out on characters like Fred… and more spike…. And Loren. And that’s a tragedy
I actually think Angel (the show, not the character) does a lot for Cordelia. Like I love Cordelia in BtVS and she just grew and got even more depth in Angel.
(((As long as you pretend season 4 of Angel does not exist)))
And pretend the entire kid thing never happened...☹Angel started out great! I loved the detective angle and indeed, lots of character development. If only the writing had been more aimed at that instead of 'miracles' and rapey situations it could have gone on for much longer imo. When Spike arrived as a regular, some of those episodes reached amazing heights. Makes me sad what could have been...
Honestly, I am impressed you managed to do this. Because I cannot comfortably say there is any character on the show that I hate, for the whole reason being even if they're horrible people, I still enjoyed their performance and watching their character. And some of these villains and characters had times when they were soaring high, and then the dark dark times that almost ruin the entire character, and I'm over here just confused about how to talk about them. Like, sure I enjoyed the trio in season six, but I also want them to all die in a hole. Sure, I cannot say I hate Spike but, *gestures to him stalking Buffy and that one scene in season 6. There is only one character I can say that I actually dislike and that is Angel. One, the whole centuries old falling in love and low-key stalking a teenager, even as 'good' Angel (who doesn't actually exist) always was bad. When I was watching this as a young teen I never was comfortable with their relationship. And it is messed up. And it is kind of sad that this was Buffy's great love story throughout her life. But also I don't like this kind of character, the brooding mysterious guy. I find them boring, and usually somewhat two-dimensional. I am very happy to see Oz and Tara in the LOVE tier because it is what they deserve. I thoroughly enjoyed their run time on the show, and the presence their characters brought. Especially the character that Tara grew into. I though would have put Jenny with them, because that character was a delight for me. I would have moved Dawn higher. A lot of people found her annoying, but even when I was younger I loved her as a character and I thought she was somewhat refreshing to the show. I do agree with you that she does orbit after season 5, but I actually love who she grew into in season 6 and 7.
Mel: Yay, ranking Buffy characters. I had fun watching. The only thing I would have changed is to put Xander into the "Like" category. He has some great moments but he can also be a little toxic. I enjoyed watching Passion of a Nerd's take on Buffy episodes too. Thank you so much. Had a good time watching this.
I think angel said it best about spikes redemption. It was something to the effect of you spent a couple days hallucinating and now you get forgiven for everything and get to walk around with a clear conscience. That's bs I went to hell and spent a hundred years trying to atone.
I was so deep in the Buffyverse as a teen. I also read the novels. If you're up for an interesting Giles twist, read The Lost Slayer by Christopher Golden - it's wild!