I wish I could (and I don't) love Wes [Angel the Series]
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2023
- breaking my silence
there were so many ways to make this far more compelling/enjoyable and I wish they'd happened.
/ fivebyfivetakes
note: this video was finished last week. my posts still apply: there’s a chance i may take a break from videos, there’s also a chance diving back into work might be what I need during this time to feel distracted and normal. either way, please respect my decision and please respect my privacy. love 💛 - บันเทิง
“Wes has been the white one-sorry, the right one”-that killed me. I always felt like Gunn and Fred had better on screen chemistry and Wes and Fred acted like middle schoolers performing Romeo and Juliet.
it’s just so forced and unsubtle! rewatching supersymmetry, especially, gives me a headache.
The way they reduced Gunn to being just “the muscle” and having him be so wildly insecure about that role in season four so that they could make Wes look smarter by comparison was SUCH an unfortunate mishandling of the character. Especially since in seasons one and two, Gunn had been very strongly established as being a pretty smart fellow. Like, right off the top of my head, he’s the one who figured out where Wolfram and Hart were hiding Darla.
I mean, that’s part of WHY Angel keeps recruiting him for help early on, right? Because he contributes things to the group that no one else can. But then once he’s fully integrated as a member of the team, he has nothing to offer except muscle?
They Anya’d him.
They actually went out of their way to make Gunn appear very smart on the show. He'd figure things out before the others on several occasions. Gunn was the one who first noticed the pattern on all those sheets of data Angel got from Lilah that was supposed to be about The Beast in season 4.
@@gungho1284 Yeah, I do not think they tried to make him out as only bieng the muscle because of incidences like this. I think that is what he thought of himelf in a moment of self-doubt. TheBuffyverse often has a habit of using juxtoposition to establish something is not true despite what the character beleives of themself.
@@jeffmartin5504This is what I took from it, as well. It wasn't what the others saw in him; it was his own insecurities.
They kept telling us that Wes was smart. But Gunn was the one we saw actually doing smart things. He managed a fairly successful vampire resistance group while being a mortal human with none of the training or wealth that Wes had. Gunn, on screen, genuinely seemed like a cleverer person.
They nerfed him to prop up Wes and it was lame.
I feel like I've unconditionally loved the series Buffy and Angel and haven't gone back to them enough to address them critically. So this was transformative. Thank you.
Also, my favourite Wes moment:
Wes : Angel, you don't find me especially paranoid, do you?
Angel : Not especially.
Wes : Oh, thank God. I was worried.
Wesley was oddly adorable, I preferred his goofy British side than the dark & moody Wesley we got in later seasons.
@@Stuart267 That was also the side of him that was hitting on high school girls, that used his fake identity to get laid, and that refused to pay Gunn for his contributions to the team.
This sums up a lot of my issues with Wes, only without my rage at how Wes in The Girl in Question gets priority over Fred's own parents. The racism as it relates to Gunn is never discussed enough for me.
I also find it weird and frustrating when i look through BtVS AtS discussions that Xander at 16 is held to a harsher standard in terms of his feedings towards Buffy, than Wes, a grown man re: Fred.
GOD, literally. wes has similarly, if not more egregious weirdo behavior with women and it’s both Consistent and unexamined??? and for what. for what.
and the text co-signing wes’s “Unique” claims to fred-grief is so irritating and sad. GET A JOB GET AWAY FROM HER
@5x5Takes Totally agree. They did have Angel tell Wes to move on, which was framed as Angel being mean and David playing it as harsh. I've see your old POI vids so you'll m know what I mean when I say Wes needed a Fusco. When Reese ran off, eventually Fusco just laid it out there that Reese wasn't the only one who lost her. Fusco lost someone very close to him... and then had to run off and check on Reese.
But back to the Buffyverse I'd given up on some places (Reddit) where I just feel like the unpopular opinions aren't welcome, especially when I speak of Wes and Xander (I don't like the way everyone gets special consideration for their own behavior but Xander's home life is treated as a joke or throw away line until Hells Bells.) Xander wasn't trained, he was a kid and yes he screwed up at times but comparatively I don't get why he's the epitome of toxic when there are better contenders, namely Wes. I'd definitely say Spike and his Buffy obsession but then, on other places, I just get a lecture that he didn't have a soul. Well, Wes has one and still gets coddled and hailed amazing.
Gunn got the shaft in many areas (his lack of airtime in s5 infuriates me) and the show went out of its way to paint him as a racist towards demons in That Old Gang Of Mine not long before the triangle with many racists aspects.
I love your vid so much. There aren't many that go against the popular opinions in the Buffyverse. It was cathartic to watch.
i concur with so much of this. without condoning the obvious misogyny embedded in the character, xander gets dismissed way too much and way too intensely, too. and gunn gets some of the most offensive, insulting writing in the show-and STILL, somehow, manages to shine
The Girl in Question might be the overall worst episode of the show. The worst part is that the Wes-Illyria plot was the better one of the two. Only good thing about it is that it shows how good of an actress Amy Acker is, jumping between two completely different characters.
Your view on Wes reminds me of how I felt about Xander after Dead Man's Party, which for a long time completely killed the character for me, since we never get any catharsis between him and Buffy. I think why it brings it to mind is there's an unfortunate pattern in the Buffyverse of men behaving terribly (especially towards women), and then everyone is just expected to forgive them? Because they're 'complicated', and apparently that equates to 'morally unaccountable'.
Honestly, in light of what we've learnt about Joss, and how he's said that Xander was a self-insert for him, makes me suspect that Wes is also acting as a self-insert for Joss.
Indeed, and not only was there no catharsis or repercussions for Xander for that behavior, but then he doubled down in "Into the Woods" and was treated as the voice of reason
All of this forvever!
I'm gonna be honest and say that I didn't expect to like and agree with this video as much as I did because I do love Wes. You make a lot of really good points and I especially love how you mentioned that awful handling of Fred and Gunn's break-up. That in itself could be a whole other video. I also hate how the love triangle messes up Wes and Gunn's relationship that was one of the best, IMO.
And this is why season two is my favorite. Best interactions in the group.
Ah, I love Wes' arc. I absolutely love that he was so dorky and "pure" and after Justine slices him up he just turns 180. Him with Lilah is one of the relationships I also love the most, for being so dark and eerie. This is the kind of stuff that makes me feel nostalgic about watching this show. But the love triangle just sucks.
I do really like Wes, but I also agree with all that you've said here on the general whole. I love the Lila/Wes stuff and really wanted more Fred perspective all around in the show
I know this wouldn't make it as dramatic but Wes should have explained that he was taking Connor to protect him because the prophecy.
Angel had more or less learnt that he had been drinking Connors blood at this point so he'd understand that there were forces manipulating him which may lead to the prophecy possibly manifesting.
You make great points, and I understand your point of view. Thanks for this video! I love trying to see things from another perspective.
Thank you for this video. As someone who has never liked the way the shows frames Wes's self-righteousness as 'right,' this was a good watch.
Cordelia had the best arc. Fred and Gunn and Wes and Lilah shouldve been together.
I liked her transition from tactless snob into the more grounded and empathetic Cordelia.
Sadly she didn't have more screen time because Joss Whedon was a complete dick.
Folks talk about how Xander was Whedon's self insert, but I think Wes was his unintentional one in Angel.
I feel like he's a parallel to Lindsey character who was going down the same path of "always part of the problem" eventual ending but got a turning point for another character ending instead. However, you can't ever know what the next season that never happened would have done with Illyria's character. I mean the comic's might be accurate but they might also not be accurate. A lot changes when adapting things to live action.
Thank you for this video, I've taken this stance before, but never had the eloquence (or the patience) to articulate the points you made as well as you did. Very cathartic indeed
Not completely done with the video, so sorry if you adress this:
I feel like Wes' reintegration into the team is less of the narrative condoning his actions, but because of the memory wipe, it is more of a retcon.
of course! i meant reintegration into the team from *our* perspective, the audience.
From my point of view, the lack of apology can be explained quite simply. They decided to completely reclassify him as a tragic character. So instead of a scene with an apology (or an attempt), we got a scene with a pillow. During which (or after) Wes decides that given the history of all his previous mistakes (and the fact that the “man” he considered his best (if not only) friend tried to kill him) he cannot be forgiven. What's the point of apologizing if you can't forgive yourself and can't imagine that you could be forgiven? After which the scriptwriters drove him deeper and deeper into a gray zone like: I do the things that need to be done, but how I do them is between me and my conscience. And apparently this puts a lot of pressure on his conscience. By the end of the seventh season, he behaves almost like a sociopath with a death wish. After the return of his memories, Wes was angry with Angel because he (Angel) took away his moral suffering (which in his opinion he deserves)
absolutely. he definitely has a “corruption” rather than a redemption arc. that’s the thing-i see what they were going for. it just ends up feeling like they don’t fully commit in either direction. i’m all for complex, ambiguous people/protags/heroes. this one just ended up feeling frustrating most of the time
@5x5Takes one thing I really do love though bout Wes' gray arc though is his full circle with Faith. From doggedly attempting to rehabilitate her, to hating her and thinking she's a lost cause, to attempting to get her to tap back into her ruthlessness in order to face Angelus. Wes & Faith in S4 is one of the best things about that season.
I hate love triangles in general. So this is a win-win for me. :3.
I one time described my hatred of the Wes/Fred ship as the nerd's self-insert getting the smart manic pixie dream girl. Both Wes and Fred deserved better than being simplified down to tropes, but together they turned into something so much worse.
Also, why does Whedon have to make every female character death disturbing? I mean, I know why, but why didn't anyone even try to stop him?
On a related note, I listened to "Slayers: a Buffyverse Story" and while it isn't perfect, it was so fun getting to hear so many of the women characters done dirty by Joss able to get some love. Not Fred, unfortunately, but Cordelia, Tara, and Anya, at least!
If Wesley didn’t have the “Rogue Demon Hunter” bit I don’t think he’d be very well liked
Whats a rogue demon?
To me he just comes off as a plotting scheming nerd who's biding his time, waiting for an oppurtunity to stab somebody in the back and betray the group. Untrustworthy creep.
Great video. Beyond the (very well-put, cogent, insightful) thesis about Wes, I'm really grateful for *this kind* of "content" (or, as it should be known, "work"). These stories and characters were so formative for me and decades later I'm still finding new ways to enjoy and reflect on them thanks to people like you sharing their thoughts & writings. I just think that's pretty neat.
This is a brilliant video! I could never put my finger on why I didn’t ever fully buy Wesley’s return to the group or warm to him again , but you’ve hit the nail on the head - the conversation was never had where he expresses his regret/sorrow/apologies/guilt. Of course we’re all expected to just know that he feels it without it being said, which I sort of understand. Great character writing like both shows have don’t need things to be spoon fed to us and laid out explicitly but you’re right … with the weight of what he did, we needed SOMETHING to give some closure to it
Oh man this was so well said! I love Wes. I like S4. But there is this dissonance and emptiness to it. I just finished my umpteenth re-watch and really couldn't stand how they did Gunn toward the end of his relationship with Fred. I wanted to throw something at my TV when Fred came up to Gunn and told him that she felt like it wouldn't have happened if "He hadn't attacked Wesley." Full disclosure, I'm a black man too and I have been heavily invested in this universe since I was 10 years old(I'm 31 now). I really loved that bromance between Wes and Gunn after Wes got shot in that somewhat tone-deaf proto-"defund the police" zombie cops episode lol. I don't feel bad for Wes in S3-4, but I like how capable he is, I like seeing him with Faith, and that is about it.
Speaking of Faith, and not to be all bro-y; I wish she stuck around a bit longer and I ship her and Gunn over her and Wood lol. I like Principal Wood, but he kinda feels like whiny beta-Gunn to me lol(I only use that beta/alpha construct ironically I swear) Speaking of Wood, Buffy and Spike's treatment of him in "Lies My Parents Told Me," kind of reminded me of Team Angel's treatment of Gunn when Fred caught that elbow in that scuffle with Wesley. Similarly I love Spike, but he unabashedly wears that trophy from murdering this guy's mom and Buffy's response in particular was just too on the nose and righteous(which I suppose isn't out of character for her). I didn't like how Wood handled that situation either, its really just frustrating and reflects badly upon all three of them. I enjoy Wood and Gunn, but both of them feel like a network mandated checkmark for the writers. The show had no black writers to actually write them either, and it shows.
I nodded in agreement so much during this video, that I almost threw my neck out.
if i could make even One Person feel understood by this video then it’s all worth it
I've always been a little lukewarm on his character, and the arc he wound up taking. I'd always figured that it was my dislike of the direction that seasons 3 and 4 wound up taking, but I think this does a good job of detailing some of the specifics. Gunn especially is my favorite member of Angel Investigations, so seeing more and more the sacrifices given to his character arc in favor of Wes does really suck.
GASP! While I'm not the biggest fan of Angel the Series, I did like Wesley. I will agree that I didn’t really agree with his choices. I'm glad that your take is nuanced.
This was a really interesting video. I'll admit that as a nerdy straight cis bloke who first binged Angel in my late teens I probably over identified with Wes including some of the not great parts.
That being said I do think there's something compling about a character who consistently fails to properly learn from his mistakes and keeps having the conquences strip more and more of himself away until there's nothing left, afterall it is in part recklessness and need to prove himself that ends up getting him killed in the finale. While I think most characters should be able to grow and get past their flaws I kind of like the fact that Wesley just gets better at lying to himself about what drives his actions, reflecting that that kind of truma doesn't ever really go away or change only our relationship to it does (something I can personally attest to). Not to say that it's impossible to heal from that kind of truma just to show how easy it is for it to hollow you out (which also highlights his connection to Illirya beyond her looking like Fred, someone who has also lost almost everything).
However I think you're right and the narrative does put way too much emphasis on siding with Wes' perspective which both undermines the potential for a more nuanced look at his behaviour and also harms a lot of other characters, particularly as you mentioned Gunn and Fred. In particular the back end of Angel really does a disservice to a lot of its female characters. Part of me feels like without the expectations of writing for a "show about strong female characters"™ Joss allowed a lot his worst tendacys (many of which are present in Buffy just too a lesser degree) to rise to the surface.
Still at least we'll always have Willow telling him to grow up in the nicest possible way.
When it comes to the Buffyverse, I love analysis and criticism even when it is negative but I only accept it from those that love these shows. You clearly do and your take on Wes was eye-opening and refreshing. Also, love that you included his dancing in the credits!
I was FURIOUS with the way they treated Wes. He was exactly the sort of dork knight I tend to fall for, and he came out so one-dimensional and miserable and cold and lost everything light and good.
Good analysis and brilliantly argued. It has been almost a decade since I've watched Buffy or Angel, but I remember enjoying Wesley's story arc. Your video made me rethink my position, so I think it is time for a rewatch this summer...
i didnt think about all this before, and yeah heavily agree with the love triangle points
it’s so atrocious like who greenlit that at every juncture
Also, the way they pour salt on the wound by making Gunn responsible (at least partially) for Fred’s death. I mean in the end his entire character boils down to “thwarted Fresley”
@@Thetommywestphalluniverse247the thing that Fred and Gunn share most deeply: we got screwed over to give Wes character development
Me: thanks I hate it
"I'm not having a fun time watching" really sums up a lot of the Wes arcs. And THANK YOU for calling out the racism in that love triangle. It was really frustrating to me to watch that way back in the day, and it's not left me in the years since. Esp. after seeing Acker, many years later, in a far better written interracial relationship....what could have been (SIGH).
if you tell me you’re talking about root and shaw i’m going to break down and cry
@@5x5Takes I am! I'll be crying again soon, too! Just got the blu-rays and planning a rewatch with my Partner, and lots of tissues. :) Actually, was it you who mentioned the similarities between ANGEL and PoI?
@@raqsasim oh yes. gonna make a short goofy video on that
@@5x5Takes YAY!
Which show? Has the love triangle?
Honestly this put into words so much of what I feel about Wes. Particularly why his arc always felt a little weird and incomplete, and how the love triangle does such a disservice to everyone involved every step of the way.
FWIW, as Buffyverse hot takes go, this is also one of my biggest 😂 you have all my support
Mine too. I often felt like I was the only voice screaming into the void about the Connor kidnapping plotline. No Wes, you are not the victim.
Me three!
Ya know, I like Wesley's character, but I didn't disagree with any point made here. Mostly because Gunn/Fred dying a death tilted me even as a kid watching this show. There aren't many Black characters PERIOD in the Buffyverse. Getting one as charming as Gunn and having a character who acknowledges and appreciates that charm blew my mind. And it WAS frustrating to dumb down Charles to make it work. One of my favorite Gunn moments is in S2 when Kate is trying to find Angel for reportedly kidnapping Darla. Gunn is the one who points out that Angel can't perform a home invasion. He's insightful, thoughtful, smart, and well uh...just way better than Robin and shows up several years earlier. Nasty work to chaos dunk his character to put Wes over. Gunn/Fred forever.
But it's still really sweet when he burns Lilah's contract.
I can't stand the love triangle and Wes' love for Fred always felt obsessive and neurotic, it never seemed like healthy love. The Ballet episode to me killed the team chemistry and the show never got it back.
I'm making my way through a Buffyverse rewatch right now so I'll have to really focus on Wes when Angel The Series comes around. But you definitely made some interesting points.
YES YES YES. I loved Angel, almost as much as Buffy, right till Wes took Connor. I didn't realise it so much at the time, but that's where the show completely shifts for me. Angel, like BTVS, is a show heavily anchored by the bond between characters. I didn't realise until now how crucial Wes' writing is to that. Once Wes becomes 'dark', the whole show does too, and the balance the show ran starts to fade very quickly, even more after they kill Cordelia's character. I also despise with a passion how frankly sexist the show becomes S4 onwards. All the main female characters - Fred, Cordelia, Lila - suffer relentlessly and eventually DIE to aid either Wes or Angel's 'darkness'. It's not the compelling writing that the show is capable of, as you mention, but cheap and careless, which is something we're used to seeing on other shows but not in the Buffy universe! Great take, thank you for sharing!
Wes, IMHO, is how Wheadon sees himself. Wes goes from naive and bumbling innocence to worldly-wise with mad skills. He does more and more terrible things as the show goes on, losing his innocence. He was a good guy, but is not any more. At the end of the show he's condescending to the women around him. He doesn't regret the things he's done or had to do.
What really strikes me is Angel. Angel doesn't really respect Wes until Wes kills Wes' father (or a representative of Wes' father). And who was Angel's first victim? His father.
"What really strikes me is Angel. Angel doesn't really respect Wes until Wes kills Wes' father (or a representative of Wes' father). And who was Angel's first victim? His father."
That's simply not true, like at all. Angel had already shown respect towards Wes, and we see in Season 3 that he clearly respected his leadership abilities, up until Wes kidnapped Connor at least. When Angel saw Wes being willing to kill his own father to save Fred, no matter how much pain it caused himself, it simply made Angel empathize with his thought process during the whole Connor incident. He understood that Wes was the type to unapologetically protect those he cared about at all cost and takes it upon himself to make hard decisions no matter how extreme.
I think the intent with the whole Gunn/Fred (Funn?) thing was that, in combination with his fears about Angel and Cordelia's absence -- she was off gallivanting with Groo at the time, I believe -- Wesley was already isolated from most of his friends just by circumstance. Then he finds this terrifying prophecy which, it's worth pointing out, multiple factions (W&H, Holtz, Sahjahn) were actively attempting to manipulate him into taking seriously, so it's not like it was ONLY Wesley's own compromised judgment at play. The deck was *really* stacked against him in this scenario.
Then he gets his throat cut. Angel tries to smother him. Fred shows up just to yell at him, for good measure. Cordelia seemingly never bothers to reach out to him at all. THEN Gunn has the gall to show up and ask him for help? (In the moisture-sucking amoeba or whatever episode)
Does all this abdicate Wesley's need to apologize for his actions? Not sure. But I can certainly understand him not being in a hurry to do so at that point. What would it really accomplish, after all? it won't bring Conner back, or undo the changes he went through after getting sucked into another dimension with Holtz. it probably won't salvage his relationships with his friends (which he may not feel are especially worth salvaging at this point anyway). What's the point?
I like thinking of Wes' and Lilah's relationship as indeed having started off with the intent of manipulating Wesley into joining Wolfram and Heart, but Lilah developed real, sincere feelings for him in the process, in her own evil way. Wesley did evidently fall for her, too. I wonder how their relationship would've turned out if Lilah wasn't murdered by Jasmine.
Jesus Christ, those comment screen grabs you showed in the first minute are W I L D
i love my fans
The white one. Good lord I laughed too hard at that. I like Wesley bcz of the tragedy and it should have stayed that way. What they did to Gunn was so not okay. And I get it a lot of us have been in that painful situation where you develop feelings for someone but they're with someone else. But you know what? They're usually with someone else. For a reason. As if ppl especially women cannot make their own (correct) decisions. We've all been their and that's what made Wesley okay for me. He should have stayed the tragically alone character with the undertones that... He's alone for a reason it's dysfunctional, he has baggage and trauma. He needs to heal from that. But we never got that healing. We got a idealistic romanticism of nice guys.
I loved Fred and Gunn together. I was so annoyed at how it was just destroyed in a half arsed way for Wesley
YES honestly even their ballet date is largely framed from Wes' POV when they're so cute together. I feel like their breakup is largely a product of "damn we want Fresley to be endgame so we can make her death about Wes" instead of actually having a credible reason for it. They accidentally created this really adorable couple and then "had to" break them up because they wanted to use Fred for Wes' character development and it drives me nuts.
Yes, also the characters had more in common. They were both highly intelligent people who had to fight for a chance to make more of themselves. Also, they seemed to have more of a shared sense of humor/wit. They seemed more like peers with mutual respect. With Wes it seemed like Fred was mostly there to cheer him up.
I certainly remember liking Wesley more, though also having many similar complaints (or at least the feelings stemming out of them), especially with regard to the love triangle. I'd really liked him with Lilah, honestly, though I could see *why* he *might* have worked with Fred, he just didn't - it happens. At least he worked better than Connor, most of the time.
I especially agree about the Wesley/Fred relationship, and fridging of Fred
I love the episode where Wes pretends to be Angel.
Regarding the love triangle...in addition to everything else, Billy sank that plotline before it could begin.
It's, if memory serves, the first episode where Wesley's crush on Fred is made clear. During the episode, Wes is infected, and he chases Fred through the hotel with an axe, trying to murder her to deal with his sexual frustration. When it wears off, he's so horrified by darker elements of his character being forced to the surface that he wants to stay away from her. ...If the writing wanted us to think he and Fred were destined to end up together, this was just about the worst possible foot to start this plotline on. Not that his violent rampage was his fault, but it's very tough to see this as anything other than a door being slammed on the possibility of them ever getting together, due to how traumatic that must have been for them both. Especially after the darker aspects of his personality, the parts of himself that he was so horrified by in that episode, become more prominent.
Gunn _accidentally_ hitting her seemingly had a bigger impact on her than that one time a possessed Wesley tried to murder (and possibly SA) her.
I get that it wasn't Wesley's fault. But hitting her wasn't Gunn's fault either!
I’m thinking some of the Amy Acker rumours and the fact that Wes seemed like a slightly more grown up self insert than Xander might have something to do with the weirdness around Gunn, Wes and Fred. The entire way all the characters talked about her was bizarre, even Cordelia at times, like she’s some little delicate exotic rare bird. She’s very creepily objectified at points, a bit like River Tam.
They really didn’t know what to do with Gunn, which was a shame. I loved it when him and Fred got together, but as you said, it was always overshadowed with grumpy Wes lol.
The fact that even in the comic they made Gunn and evil vampire, just shows they didn’t care for him being a part of the team.
I thought the growth of wes felt natural, him feeling like he was betrayed by the team, so he turns cold, but the love triangle was just completely stupid
I loved the Avatar references mixed in 😂
I might just be reaching but I think Wesley was another Joss Whedon insert but just in another show
Yeah I love the character that Wesley became in the Angel tv series compared to his goofy self in the Buffy tv show but him acting like he was in the right and not apologizing to Angel really got on my nerves and in Angel final season he had the nerve to get mad at Angel for erasing their memories about Connor when Wesley did a even worse betrayal to Angel by taking his son like WTF Wesley you hypocrite
You could not have put my feelings about Wesley more perfectly...thank you for expressing my long hatred of him so eloquently.
I agree with all your points. I still love Wesley. I'd say that I dislike some of the storylines. I tend to skip season four entirely on rewatches.
extremely fair!
For the Wesley character development, no real argument here, but Wes is up there for my favorite characters. For the love triangle, though, hard disagree. Gunn was never stupid. He led his own group for years, and he figures things out quickly in the group. However, his intelligence is a very different kind than Fred's. Wesley and Fred do in fact have much more in common, but as you said, that doesn't necessarily mean they should be together.
Wesley was never a good person, to me. But he's trying to be. And I like that.
I agree! And yet the text oscillates between acknowledging Gunn’s intelligence, and still calling him “the muscle.”
But I like your take on Wes too. He was trying to be
@@5x5Takes I figured "the muscle" came about because of how Gunn joined up and his nature. True, he was a leader, but he was homeless. So he has no real education, just street smarts. So he understands motives/people and combat. But he's no scientist or mythologist. And early on, they only contacted him for extra help, so, muscle. I could be overthinking it.
@@5x5Takes Gunn called himself "the muscle." It wasn't how the others saw him, but rather how he saw himself when his insecurities got the best of him. Because he wasn't educated in science like Wesley and Fred, he couldn't see his own intelligence, so he believed that the others perceived him the same way.
Thank you! It says a lot Wesley became the fan favorite after he became such a self pitying creep. Just because someone goes through an arc doesn’t mean they change for the best and it’s sad so many (especially men) idolize his gross character changes and arc. 😵💫
I think the love triangle would have worked better if Fred still had the crush on Angel and Gunn/Wes took turns taking Fred out to do stuff, with both of them keeping track of the "epic dates" they went on with Fred. But Fred doesn't even realize those two are having the rivalry over her because she's in her head over Angel.
She eventually has her realization speech about not being able to make people fall in love with you and just being happy to have a friend like Angel in her life. Gunn and WEsley share a look and end the rivalry and combine the two date ideas they ahd and jsut go do both things as friends with Fred.
Gunn and Fred date, Wesley is sad about it but without the weird possesiveness. Fred and Lilah date. Gunn can't stand to be around Illyria so Wesley does and forms the bond. We still get the finale with Illyria lying to him.
You should never be afraid to speak your mind. I never understood be bother by people online. If they are not paying your bills, feeding you, or else. No ones opinions really matter. Say what you need to say about the Buffy world and that’s it.
"He abandoned his friends first" thank you I want to slap Wes in that scene.
Wes you're a fucking hypocrite.
"The text continues to frame him like a victim for experiencing consequences to his actions" YES
"Fred as a prize" yesss I hate it so much. Wes' POV is treated as *so* important all through Fred/Gunn and I hate it.
I hate how Fred's death ends up being more about how much it hurts Wes, not how *she is dying painfully and terrifyingly*, and she fucking apologises to him, just as she did after he almost kills her in Billy.
oof, that billy scene is so weird
I never really cared for Wes and this video gives a lot of nuance to why. I think a lot of people confuse character growth/arc with character doesn’t act the same anymore, but it’s much deeper than that.
every time i hear the claim he has the “best arc” or “development” i feel like i’ve entered another dimension. what? willow is Right there.
I came to write the same thing but you covered it!
I never gave him much thought as I was never crazy about him. Rather just tolerated his presence.
PS thank you miss five by five for your hot take!
If Wes takes away the bucket, she is just gonna poop on his closet floor. What a hollow threat
that’s actually so funny
THANK YOU.
Two great points. I really had to watch the love triangle shit through my fingers. It was so cringe whenever Wesley got involved.
I’m also extremely aware of how close Joss is and was to Alexis.
Wes did end up being one of my favorite characters on Angel, so I definitely understand the love for him. Of course, I didn't hate Connor, so maybe my judgment is a bit questionable. The fandom certainly doesn't always agree with me, and I don't always agree with the general consensus among the fandom. However, I don't always love how his character and his relationships were handled.
Wes and Gunn (as friends, not rivals) were excellent together. I love them as bros. Wes and Cordelia (as friends) were great and fun. They shared a wonderful sense of humor together that made them charming and endearing. Wes and Fred (as friends) were fantastic at times. I was always happy to see them getting nerdy together. Wes and Angel (as friends) had some really good scenes and moments of very sincere mutual respect and appreciation. It was a great way to reveal aspects of the characters that weren't always as overt or obvious. Wes and Lilah were one of my favorite pairings. It was a bit unhealthy at times (for reasons that should be obvious), but it was also totally believable. I really wanted to see how they would develop together.
But the love triangle hurt everyone involved, and it was utterly unnecessary. Granted, I generally hate love triangles on basic principle. I absolutely understand Fred and Gunn not working out over the long run. Most relationships don't. That isn't necessarily anyone's fault. That's just how relationships are. That being said, the forced tension didn't help the characters. The gross sexism and occasional racism were also not needed. It made Wes less likeable, and it became more difficult to relate to him. Normally, I love the awkward nerd. So getting me to absolutely adore Wes should've been easy. Even though he ended up being one of my favorite characters on the series overall, there are moments where he makes me physically cringe. And that's something that I could do without.
Always liked Wesley, but i could never forgive them for killing off Doyle just to replace him with Wesley. Wesley could 100% have been incorporated as the "scholar" that could butt heads with Doyle over demonology and essentially build on eachothers knowledge. Doyle's _litteral_ life experience and "street smarts" vs Wesleys academic background etc.
That role of being the street smart guy was something Gunn ended up filling in later seasons.
I did enjoy seeing Wesley grow and change over the seasons from just litteral comic relief to a very tragic anti-hero.
It shouldn't really be surprising that writing done for a character's arc beginning from 20 years ago is going to hit differently because of the mindset of that time period.
So what work then and was pretty much like for the character will now in this time period will obviously be deemed as misogynistic and racist even if that wasn't the intent. Although with the issues with JW, that would likely not be the majority opinion.
As for the Wesley, Fred and Gunn love triangle. Well it's not surprising how it was written because that is something of the way JW wants his couples written where they aren't really meant to be happy long-term.
Also it's not surprising that a number of people prefer the Fred and Gunn relationship because it's usually the relationships not obvious or were meant as an obstacle for the pairing that the show is aiming for that is like for those reasons particularly many not wanting to be told who to root for.
I would have prefer that they actually hadn't written Fred and Gunn together at all however long they took to get Wesley and Fred together because for me the writing was saying that they were the pair that was going to be together and how I like their chemistry.
And no I'm not one of those that felt it was that Gunn being a black guy meant he was always going to lose her because the character could have be white and still written as with the same characteristics and it still would have gone the same way.
And let's get real, NONE of the love relationships in the buffyverse have been truly written has healthy or happy for a long period so I can't understand the thought that Fred and Gunn's relationship should be seen as different just because of the way it start especially given the way all the buffyverse relationships have gone particularly Willow's who two relationships started out healthy but descended into some forms of toxicity.
Still I can acknowledge and accept your feelings regarding Wesley as i have even deeper feelings of disdain and resentment for the character of Spike and how he was written into BTVS (series 4 onwards) and ATS (series 5 only).
Regardless of the imperfections with certain aspects of Wesley's arc, I will always considered it one of the best written and definitely the best performed throughout both shows by AD.
What episode is the clip at 3:45 from?
I am one of whose who consider that Wesley can't be my favorite character. In my rank, he is the last. I always thought that Wesley, besides the fact that he had one of the best growth in the Buffyverse had a dark side...I am agree with all the things you said about him
Character arc: being so edgy you dont need glasses anymore
LMAO
I'm gonna quote that in future Angel reactions, if that's ok
What's that old line? We can be critical of the media we consume while still enjoying it?
Wes's "dark arc" was always a little uncomfortable for me. You nailed what was bothering me about it.
Same. Very English and everything that's wrong with the Council. I really hated how he treated Faith when she came back. He was also totally wrong about her needing to channel her inner-sociopath. It was her humanity that saved Angel. Also very telling how he treated Gunn, and Fred when his "inner" sexism came out in Billy episode.
I've _NEVER_ seen Buffy or Angel, but I feel like I _kind've_ want to. One question or two first, though...Is Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel better than Supernatural? I never got into Supernatural, just like how I never got into Buffy or Angel, mainly and simply because those kinds of shows just weren't ever really my cup of tea (until Once Upon a Time). I've always been more into Western cartoons, Japanese anime and cartoon shows and movies. But, if any of you people can give me detailed, bullet-pointed answers as to why or why not you think Buffy and Angel are or are not better than Supernatural and thus, why or why not I should watch them, then I _might_ just give Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel both a _solid chance._ 🙂.
taste is a subjective thing. i could recommend it to you for all the reasons *i* love it, and it still might not be the show/universe for you! all i can say is try it if you're curious, continue if you want or not
One thing I would say is that while I think S1 of Buffy gives you some important character and world building, and I do recommend watching it, I feel like you wanna give it till at least the middle (preferably the end, but *at least* the middle) of S2 before you decide it's not for you. S1 has some amazing moments and also some incredibly patchy moments, it was a mid season replacement and also almost every episode is meant to be watchable for someone who's not seen any of the previous episodes. I have a lot of affection for it, and at its best it is great, but I know it didn't grab me first time around. S2 the show is really finding its feet, and imo it's a much better metric for whether you'll enjoy the show as a whole than S1 is, if that makes sense?
Thanks for your thoughts; honestly in my opinion Wes largely seemed to stay Wes, like he got older, he didn't grow. I'd be more impassioned than this but I save that for defending Fuffy, sorry. 😅
wesley is definitely not my favorite, mainly for gunn/fred reasons. i feel very seen by this video.
I like Wesley but I agree with you on all of this. I was completely and utterly confused by Wesley's plotline in stealing Connor. His decision seemed so irrational to me and clearly morally wrong. I thought that was poor writing (and I hate being critical of a show I love). I feel like even though Wesley has made impulsive decisions before, I thought he had grown past that by developing such a strong bond with the group and learning the value of trust and loyalty. I just hate that plotline so much. I also hated Wesley's jealousy of Gunn. I loved Wesley's and Gunn's friendship and they drove it into the ground. All the jealousy scenes made me really uncomfortable; Wesley came off very creepy. I don't know if the show wanted us to sympathize with him. If they did, it didn't work. I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion but Angel season 3 and season 4 is just a rough ride for me. Even though there is a lot going on, I found myself getting bored on my last rewatch. I know it's very subjective. I couldn't condone Wesley's actions and I felt that the love triangle was out of place and just didn't sit right.
Most importantly, I wanted to say: this was an excellent video! I admire the fact that you made a negative video on a beloved character. I think you made really good points (maybe it's because I already agreed with you 😆) and I never felt that irresistible urge to become defensive while I was watching it. I also share your sentiment on Buffy season 7. I hope you keep making videos and continue to share your opinion, whether it's positive or negative. Thank you for your hard work!
OH GoD I think I agree!!!!!! Also this show treated Gunn very poorly in general
It’s okay that you have negative feelings and sharing them. We all are human beings with different feelings and reactions.
I do like Wes a lot, but your dislike and the reasons for it are just as valid. I'm right there with you in the stupid love triangle - which almost comes outta nowhere and only solely to alienate Wes so he makes a dumb decision (why not sing in front of Lorne because that's literally the first move they make in every other case - no we gotta have that tension occur as Wes makes the dumbest decision).
I think that was the whole point of the memory wipe at the end of season 4. The writers needed a copout to apologize for the last year and a half of storytelling (I basically cringe nonstop from the moment Darla stakes herself until season 5 give or take episodes like Spin the Bottle).
I will be pointing people to this video next time I'm required to explain why Wes's corruption arc leaves a lot to be desired.
The issue is not the character, or even the arc, but the way narrative frames it. You as a viewer are essentially discouraged to challenge, question or even have a conversation about those choices. You know Wes is in his gray anti-hero era, but the text insists he's actually completely in the right and just tragically misunderstood.
And I can't help but think that the main reason Wes is such a favorite of so many fans is class privilege. The received pronunciation and explicit pedigree grant him the leeway the Gunns and the Xanders of the Buffyverse just aren't extended.
It honestly took a second rewatch (in my late 20s) to realize that the only reason I rooted for Wesley was because I was a pedantic "nice guy" nerd myself who thought of myself as always being right and who always fantasized about letting out my "inner darkness" and proving what a badass I could be. Just goes to show what maturity can do to a character's reception
@@bernardsoul5186 well perhaps if you're an Oxford-educated nerd with cut cheekbones, you might get away with it.
Thanks for giving voice to something I felt but never understood. Bravo!
2:05 I mean, it makes sense then that people are so shocked with Wesley's change in Season 4 because we had Season 1 Wesley to compare him to, which is a version of the character exactly the same as in BTVS but now with more to do in the story. That version (ATS 1) wasn't a caricature, the one from Buffy yes (or to be specific just a very 'meh' character with some interesting traits). It's not like he shows up in Angel and inmediatly he's on the verge of Season 4 Wesley.
4:24 What about what he said to Lilah in Habeas Corpses? He decided to join Angel in the battle against the Beast and when she questions his morality he literally says "I've made mistakes", in reference to kidnapping Connor. Yes, Wesley did treat the team in a very rude way near the end of Season 3, but because at that moment he was angry with his friends for not listening to his side of things, not because he though he was right and they were wrong. That was the whole point of the hospital scene with Fred revealing him the thruth about the prophecy... and then never talking to him again. That's why when Angel goes to forgive him in early Season 4, Wesley is incredibly evasive, because he hasn't forgiven himself for what he did. The apology in Angel's "perfect happines dream" is him understanding Wesley's pain and not wanting him to fall down a rabbit hole of self punishment. Now, that scene from Spin The Bottle it's more of a "what do you mean what happened to me? What did you expect, the same old Wesley?" instead of a "I did everything right, my problems are on you". Specially when you put it in context since, you know, in that scene they were talking about Wesley helping Fred with the murder of her professor, not the Connor situation. Also, 6:06, that's clearly sarcasm, and 6:10, he's confronting Angelus (someone you don't want inside your head) by deflecting his arguments, c'mon. Could they have been more explicit with this side of Wesley's mind? Absolutely, but unfortunately the plot of Season 4 didn't allow that to happen.
The whole point of Wesley's character is going from a man who tried to go by the book and do the right thing, to a man who wants to do the right thing and protect his loved ones by any means neccesary, doesn't matter how brutal they are. I agree with you on people liking him for the wrong reasons, but what you explained in the video is EXACTLY why I love his character. He can't change, and he just flat out rolls with it. He doesn't think he deserves forgiveness, he doesn't see himself as a good person at all (which he explicitly explains to Illyria), and he doesn't think he deserves happiness. His mentality is based on 'I do bad things, so I must be a bad', similar to Faith in that regard. This line from Season 5 that he says to Gunn perfectly encapsulates him: "I stabbed you. I should apologize for that, but I'm honestly not sure how. I think it'll just be awkward". Why bother if the real forgiveness is between Wes and his conscience? Every character in Angel is there to atone for something, and Wesley did it: He stopped being a failure, though it cost him his humanity. In an universe full of characters that change, grow, evolve and heal wounds, he's a very tragic one that shows what occurs when someone embraces their faults and exploits them instead of making peace and amends with themselves (the opposite of Angel basically). No wonder he came across such a dramatic ending in Season 5. Then again, it's perfectly fine if you don't enjoy watching it. That being said, I see most of your points with the romantic triangle and how badly they handled him, Gunn and Fred, specially the latter in Season 5.
oh i see all of that-just the way it ended up being written and executed did not work for me. i’m glad it did for you!
I agree with this. He's flawed, but then there's always the frustration of crappy writers who don't know what to *do* with someone, haha
His inability to forgive himself is first shown very explicitly in Billy: when Fred tries to reach out and offer her forgiveness for what he did under Billy's influence, he outright rejected that sentiment. That was the first instance I can recall where he had to grapple with the fact that deep down, he might not be the man he always prided himself to be and can, in fact, be a bad person. That realization of not being good leads to him refusing to be kind to himself and accepting kindness from others as well, over and over again. The prophecy and the consequences of his actions cement that self-image up until the memory erasure in the end of season 4, and then he sort of has the epiphany again after the episode where he has to confront his (fake) father. I'm sure he also managed to somehow blame himself for not being able to save Fred, too. The only time we see him show any kindness toward himself was when he asked Illyria to lie to him at the very end
Hey, no one has to agree with what everyone thinks. There is always a hot take somewhere. My hot take, season 4 is my favorite season and im perfectly fine with what they did with cordelia. To me it was wonderfully fucked up and right up angel's alley. So i get it. I disagree about the wes thig but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
To me, Wesley seems like an even more pronounced version of the Giles “oh you thought I was a nerd but I’m actually a huge badass” moments. Xander gets a lot of flack for being Joss’s self insert but I feel like this is where Joss’s wish fulfillment really shines through, which is why I have a harder time uncritically loving Giles than seemingly everyone else in the fandom (but that’s off topic.) It’s the whole “simultaneously feel bad for me & bask in the coolness of me” aspect of Wes’s dark arc that makes it almost completely indigestible for me. It’s like the whole thing with that scene where he kinda wants to brag about keeping a woman chained in a closet, it’s less played as something he’s actually ashamed of and more cool how dark & gritty it is.🤮
Dammit, you made some excellent points. I forgot that Wes never actually apologized for his betrayal. Season 4 was so heavily serialized, it’s like everyone just didn’t have time to sort it out. No breathing room between episodes, and even less between scenes. Then it was completely forgotten by the time they figured out that a possessed Cordy was doing bad things. Maybe the writers were thinking three or four steps ahead, instead of just the one. Missing the forest for the trees and all that.
Season four seems like the writers were never more than a quarter step ahead, to me. Honestly felt like it was made up as it went along. Stuff definitely led into it, but you can _really_ tell that it was rewritten in a massive hurry.
Wes in Angel.
Xander in Buffy.
Topher in Dollhouse.
All of them the Joss stand-in. All eerily toxic and malignant to the vibe. It's interesting unpacking the subtler stuff after the fact.
Which one was the Joss stand-in on Firefly?
I do also wonder if they had just done something with it like Wes standing by his decision. He never apologized because he still thinks he was right. That even after everything, he makes his case that his decision was the best possible end. (It's been a while, I can't recall the exact details, so I can't remember if they had a reveal of him being explicitly duped). But if they just gave Wes a solid, expressed rationale for his behavior, it'd be SOMETHING.
Weirdly, Topher is the one of those three that doesn't make me cringe ever. I think it might be because unlike Buffy and Angel, the Dollhouse Whedon stand-in is explicitly not a good dude. As far as my memory goes, the text of Dollhouse never defends Topher's bad takes the way that Buffy and Angel seem to side with Xander and Wes in moments it shouldn't.
I wonder if Topher is an example of Whedon learning where it's safer to put your weird opinions. In Buffy, you could have Spike say way worse things than Xander without bother people, because he is regarded by other characters as being morally lacking, something Topher is explicitly stated to suffer from in the show.
P.S. I can't really think of who the Whedon stand-in in Firefly is. Maybe Jayne? He is the one that spouts the most needlessly sexist shit, and similarly to Topher, you wave it away because the the butt of the joke isn't the woman Jayne is objectifying, but Jayne himself.
@sebrussell that is true. Topher is only in grey morality primarily because he has a sort of "what are my limits?" view of stuff. To him, it's all play. And when the horrors he's enabled get brought to him, he doesn't exactly like it. But he's also asked "did you really not think this shit thru?"
My first thought on Joss in Firefly was actually Simon, as the nerdiest crew member with a touch of a superiority complex. But he definitely displays the least "problem" behaviors of the group. He does also have the whole Kaylee angle of "super hot nerd girl loves me, but I'm just OH SO AWKWARD!"
What Wesley has one of best journey’s and he is one of the characters with the most character growth.
The love triangle’s aren’t good. But Wesley as a character is great
i know that’s a common take! and i can see where you’re coming from!
for me, I just don’t see a lot of growth and development in the way the character is written. like i said-I definitely see a *difference*, but i with a story that’s often repetitive, and, to me, lacking investigation of his inner world, i struggle to call his story one of “growth” or “development”.
thank you for watching!
@@5x5Takes Yeah i get it, some of the writing in regards to Wes is quite flawed as you showcased some of in this video, and i can agree with that, i do also sympathize with the fact that Gunn and Fred as characters suffered in the writing, to make Wesley look good, While i like Wesley as a charcter, i do personally think that Fred and Gunn was a better as a couple, it seemed far more natural, Wesley had great chemistry with Lilah.
i do love both Buffy and Angel though.
I have to ask are you keeping people with dissenting opinion from posting their comments. I tried so many times to post my counterarguments to this video and none of them have gone through.
Is this done purposefully?
Nope, I've found three different comments that disagree, and yours makes four. The issue was probably on your end
@@bernardsoul5186 It's doubtful because unless those comments went in-depth then I don't think it was same as my response.
@@thehacker4012 if you click on "Newest First" and scroll, you'll find them
@@thehacker4012 if you click on "Newest First" and scroll, you'll find them
I don’t like the love triangle either and I understand your point of view on the love triangle but I actually prefer Fred/Wesley over Gunn / Fred. That’s just my opinion. I just feel like Fred / Wesley have better chemistry and just fit better in my opinion.Gunn/Fred felt cringey to me but that’s just my opinion.
For me, Wes is the most interesting character. His character arc from bumbling watcher to extremely flawed bad ass is entertaining. He is always trying to do what is right in spite of the consenquences for himself or others. His emotions get the best of him and he jumps to conclusions when he does not need to. I love characters like this, they are flawed and far more interesting than the ones that always make the right choices. Being perfect is boring, no one wants to watch perfect characters.
Wes is the best thing about Season 3. The other main cast members just aren't doing anything all that interesitng in Season 3. Sure, there is some interesting drama between Angel and Holts but it's Wes that brings me in. His moral conflict on what to do about the prophecy and the steps he takes to try to prevent it is entertaining and after his expulsion from the group, his back and forth with Lilah is just pure gold. The rest of the mian cast almost seems stuck in place. Yes, Gunn and Fred start dating and it's cute for a bit but than it's just treading water after awhile. The only other interesting characters are the supporting characters such as Darla and Lilah.
This was addressed in the video. You seem to have missed the other 90% of what was said
Time 1 I stopped watching Angel: the ballet love triangle episode. Partly because of how forced the Cordy/angel relationship felt, but also how forced the "Wes is sad about this great thing" felt. Time 2 I quit watching (and still haven't picked it back up) was after Cordy slept with Connor because gross. Therefore I have not gotten as far as the breakup between Gunn and Fred, but it makes me really consider whether I should finish the show. I do not want to see Wes and Fred together. I have never wanted to see Wes and Fred together. It baffles me that ANYONE wanted to see Wes and Fred together. Fred and Gunn works, and effing it up in service of this bland white dude who I only ever tolerated is very disappointing. So while I can't be a complete authority on his whole arc, I'm completely with you on Wes as a somewhat disappointing character who I don't really root for and who feels crammed down my throat anytime he's not being a comedic background/ensemble character.
Wes and Fred do end up together in season 5, but only for an episode...because Fred dies so that Wesley can brood again and we all feel sorry for him.
Season 5 is worth watching overall, though, if you ever have the time
Became cold and methodical, and he didn’t know how to love Wesley
Yes, yes, yes. I think he is my least favourite Angel character... so righteous/arrogant... so creepy about Fred... kinda toxic/ possessive and condescending towards Fred. (Fred, herself annoyed me for a long time but she grows and her ending feels sad but yes I would like her to have been written with more agency). I could never get behind Wes' story: the betrayal and Fred. I also found Fred and Gunn sweet and wished they could have let that go on further. Yep .... and the racist characterisations ...
I want to like him. But. I feel like wes is pulled in too many different directions. Thank you for this !!!
that’s how it feels to me too. wes being “many things” ends up feeling bungled, rather than complex. because they seem to want their cake (look he’s spiraling and becoming worse) and eat it too (male nerd fantasy omg he’s double fisting guns he’s so COOL)
Why I season my Wesley, not my Angel
I was frankly more pissed at Angel during that arch yes Westly did wrong but he had a good reason and he already got his throat cut ended up in the hospital but you tried to strangle him to death! Then tossed him out of the group when Angel has done far more reprehensible shit and been given far more grace. But I agree Westly does throw a lot of self pity parties. also Fred x Gunn is the only Angel ship that wasn't toxic I gave a crap about. So to me it felt like West was just rudely intrudeing on all their happy moments and making it bout him.
undoubtedly, what angel did was *wrong*. that said, i am far more able to empathize with his grief induced rage. i cannot fathom the grief of losing an infant child-and knowing your close friend is the reason they’re gone/presumed dead.
That's fair I think buffy/ Angel is just one of those shows where you could empathize with a lot of different characters. @@5x5Takes
@@alorapendrak9752 absolutely
I love wesley because its shown he did the wrong things, but thought its the right thing. And he has a hard time tocome to term with that,. And i think he works wellasdark tragic mirror who still brought it to himself.
Ok ifind it maks him interesting him going off to darkplaces. But youare right, lilah could have brought out more wit him tht reflection. Hell, gie me more lilah wes.
Generally ilove it, but i agree his fiation on fred is a problem.Make more of lilah wes. And season is weird. ilove wesand illyria, but its not as deep as season 4 when he is mirrored by lilah, ad its not always, butilove wesley being a mess and where he can go.
But yeah, he should have gotten to lilah while moving on from fred genuinly mostly. And i get the memory erase, because weswasoff in season 5 tillthen, but alsohe was off. I think that makes me feelwith wesly, yeah you took wes growth as tragic as it is.
But yeah, wes and fred never should have been actually together. That was not nessesary, he doesnt need to, to be broken about her death.
I sdont like their relationship actually happening, but else, ilike him as compelling broken dude that did bring that n himself, dont give im fred actually. Give im way more with lilah. edidntneed tohave that toget that interesting relationship with illyria.
Also gun was done dirty in season 5. which ...
I think that was a wicked quick rewrite guard. I think this was originally post to be for Corti that they needed in Buffy but then they said OK that changed and make up make up make 40 hard and we give them the other girl.
Wtf?
Na, Wesley's character arc was the greatest in The Buffyverse. From comic bumbling fool in BTVS S3 to hardened warrior and brilliant intellect in The Angel team. A lot of fans of course had it in for him, firstly as they thought he would be Giles replacement in BTVS, and then having to replace Doyle in Angel. His greatest moment was shooting what he thought was his won father when he was going to kill Fred on the roof, showing his total love for Fred, and then the poignant phone call to his actual father In England. He added some of the best comic moments in The Buffyverse, and who can forget the absolute heartbreak of Fred's death and change to Illyria, and his own utterly heart breaking death in the arms of Fred after Illyria changed back to give him one last moment with her. Thanks for the vid, but I disagree with many of the points raised, it's just my opinion.
The heartbreak of Fred's death being all about Wes instead of the character who **actually died in a horrible way** and had her soul consumed? No, I totally remember that, trust me, it's one of the things I hate most about Wes' storyline, because, again, Fred is treated as only important because she gives Wes character development.
If you also view women as tools to give men character development, welp...
@@flootzavut30daychallenge It really is a Joss Special™, and it drives me nuts. -_- "How can I murder a woman in a tragic way to give my male characters Man Pain™?" sigh.
That's a weird take. Wesley has the best character arc in all of the Whedon verse.
Gunn got to have Fred for over a year.
Wes only got her for a day
One.single.day.
He's such a tragic character and tried his hardest to do the right thing but failed.
As one does