Dorn's head nearly exploded when Malcador allowed him to remember the 2nd primarch putting pineapple on a pizza while the 11th primarch replaced a roll of toilet paper backwards....
One of the lost primarchs being kept alive to prevent their legion from going nuts does fit. I personally like the idea of it being the Angel for funsies.
It would be fascinating if one of the Lost Primarchs was raised on a Xenos planet. The Rangdan Xenocide is him and his Legion dying to protect his planet from the Imperium.
in the heresy books, dorn finds out they were mindwiped about the lost primarchs and malcador unlocks those for dorn temporarily and hes furious at what the lost primarchs did and said if they were around terra wouldve been lost long ago. in a different book, guilliman or dorn, i cant remember basically says the traitors havent been scrubbed from the record, imagine what the lost primarchs had to do to get scrubbed
In universe, one of them is pretty much erase from existence and the other merely censure for whatever reason. So the one Dorn remember have to be the forgotten one right? Cause there's no reason to block a memory when you can just stumble over a classified file
@@dean_l33 nah dorn specifically asked malcador to erase his and the others memories about what they did. Whatever he saw was both of them. But it is Warhammer so who knows, maybe malcador showed him a changed memory. It’s in praetorian of dorn if you want to search for it
I think the complete scrub success does not make sense in 40k, chaos would not forget. Deamons would bring up the names of the primarchs and legions just to spite.
Makes you wonder what they did to put them at that much of a threat. The only ideas I have is either: They were corrupted by chaos and attempted to open another eye of terror on terra, or they attempted to assassinate the Big E himself. Granted, that's assuming Malcador was being honest, could be that they were erased for something else and it was a false memory, you never know.
The other thing they could have done was to work with xenos (namely Eldar) to deal with the threat of stuff like Tyranids etc. The fact that their legions were integrated into two of, if not the most rigid legions/chapters though so that doesn't make sense if the primarchs and legions turned traitor or had something inherently wrong with them.
I've heard from some people that when the Emperor sent Leman Russ to get rid of someone he wanted everyone to know it and when Big E sent The Lion he wanted nobody left alive and no bulding, no monument and no name carved in stone to be left intact.
I'd just like to add a detail; a space marine actually produces two progenoid glands. One is removed when it's mature from the neck, one on death. So space marines generally are expected to produce two 'offspring' apiece. One new one and a replacement.
I think the 11th is a primarch level blank. Powerful blanks are hard to see so i figure a primarch blank would be completely invisible. Itd explain why his cell is empty too, hes there you just cant see him.
Wouldn't a blank of that level basically make everyone around them go insane immediately? Pariahs and culexus assassins are already bad enough, a primarch would probably be impossible to be near of
James Workshop is truly a genius and has a solution in their pocket to the Xenos army sales problem. Release a Xenos army in the future with a space marine primarch HQ.
I lean towards at least one of the Lost Primarchs being a driving reason why the Emperor and Malcador were so stubborn about keeping the truth of the Warp out of reach of most of the Primarchs. A Lost Primarch was on-record to have investigated the Ymga Monolith, which is a Necron construct so powerful that it TANKED a Warp Storm from the Great Rift, AND is capable of duplicating entire Necron fleets at the snap of a finger. Not even a time-intensive process like the Star Forge from KOTOR, just a Necron ship touching the artifact and copying itself like a literal cheat code. A Lost Primarch trying to find a solution to Chaos and failing isn't the scarier option. *The scarier option is that Lost Primarch seeking a solution to Chaos and SUCCEEDING.* The Emperor wasn't actually trying to eliminate the Immaterium, because that would have made the Imperial Webway Project dead-on-arrival. Completely erasing the Warp would very likely condemn Humanity as a whole. It's entirely possible that a Lost Primarch misinterpreted his father's intentions, aimed for the wrong goal, and produced a potential result that Big E never wanted. Also note that the psychic mind-wipe is very likely NOT standard M.O. for the Emperor. The mind-wipe was EXPLICITLY requested by both Dorn and Guilliman, which thickens the plot even more because they both survived the Heresy and didn't think the circumstances dire enough to merit another similar memory-hole measure. Which is wild, because those circumstances include the death of their Father.
Hmm, that's not dissimilar from my belief that at least one of the lost primarchs should have been right. The tragedy of 40k can only be heightened by a primarch who had the foresight to make better choices but was denied that chance by his family being unable to trust him.
I like how of all the lost primarch videos, this is the first one I've seen where the creator has the simple theory of the emperor deletes records more, and he wasn't around to delete the whole heresy, or it was too big to hide. Definitely easier to get behind than trying to think of something more terrible than the chaos legions
I also think the whole memories of the missing primarchs being so horrible they wished to forget them is actually just malcador Implanting false memories to keep them from doubting the emperor.
1) I like the theory that the Rangdan were HUMAN and had an alternate vision for humanity which convinced the 2nd to defect. The reason he had to be written out was because the Emperor couldn't let that alternate vision be allowed to be spread. And he was able to put his whole might behind stamping it out, which he couldn't do after the Horus Hersey because, well, mostly dead now, Imperium in ruins, traitors everywhere, etc. 2) only bring the 2 back if your goal is ENDING the current setting entirely.
maybe when the emperor showed up to his planet one of the primarchs was like “nah I’m good here” and he’s just living his best life on his home planet, still sends the emperor Christmas cards and Father’s Day gifts
Headcanon for me is Forgotten Primarch was a pacifist who refused to fight and took the "traitor" parts of his legion to go off and live in peace in a random corner of the universe. He just wasn't vibing with any of the xenophobia of the great crusade. He wasn't treated poorly because he wasn't causing Big E any issues so he got to live his life with his sons in peace. I also have a second theory about him which is the entire legion is the Blank version of the Thousand Sons and they are forgotten because we literally cannot see them. He was sent off alone and no one enters that point in space since the sheer amount of blankness keeps it "hidden:". Either way the second primarch is a happy boy living his life. Purged Primarch is like the super mega heresy boy. He and the traitor parts of his army did something so heinous that he just had to be killed. Leman Russ did it. As for what he did I have no idea but it was BAD. For an analogy, the bible talks about Sodom and Gommorah, and eventually sodomy became a word in English. To my knowledge we don't have an equivalent word for Gommorah in English. Horus was the thing that was bad, the evil we know. We don't even have a word for what the Purged did, which is lowkey terrifying.
Saw a world building game where a Blank Primarch was sent to colonize/conquer another galaxy in our local cluster as a back up in case the Emperor and Imperium failed.
Forgotten Primarch is a blank version of the thousand sons, but also grew up in a dark age world that praised AI and science. He was simply forgotten so the others wouldn't ever bother him again
I have two of my own (completely unprovable and not based on any evidence whatsoever) theories regarding the lost Primarchs: First Theory: They were religious in some capacity. The Emperor was pretty vehement about enforcing the Imperial Truth, and there’s no guarantee that all of the Primarchs would be on board with giving up any sense of faith and/or persecuting it. Case in point, Lorgar. If the Emperor was willing to burn down Monachia so callously, it’s a cinch he may have been willing to kill some other sons who decided they didn’t jive with state-enforced persecution of religion, especially if they had adopted some form of faith themselves. Then again, the obvious weakness to this theory is that Lorgar was never struck from record, so there’s that. Second Theory: The Lost Primarchs were cool with Xenos and/or Abominable Intelligence living side by side with humanity. It’s possible that the lost Primarchs landed on a world/worlds where Xenos and humans could either coexist peacefully, or at least exist near each other without the great urge to automatically genocide each other. It’s also possible that, like with the Leagues of Votann, the lost Primarchs could have ended up on a rare world where AI was considered the norm. If the lost Primarchs felt that Xenos or AI (or even both) were actually pretty cool, and they would rather chill with them than destroy them, the Emperor may have felt that their offense was too great to permit. Heck. If the lost Primarchs ended up being a pair of dudes who would crack open a cold one with a Xeno while chatting up the AI bartender and talking about how they enjoyed praying to whatever foreign Xeno gods, the Emperor would throw a fit!
I’ve been occasionally working over this summer on my own Lost Primarch. I’ve been trying to do my best to connect to several plot points found in the lore, have a few historical inspirations for the character and his history, create a small culture for his planet also with a couple historical inspirations, and even have a Geneseed association much like how Inquisitor Vuln attributes Geneseed to certain Primarchs.
My headcanon is that when the 2nd lost primarch was discovered by the emperor it was found that he had made peace with the aliens and even gotten himself a Rangdan Xenowife. This obviously did not go well with the Emperor.
As one of a few Dark Krakens fans (they're my new favorite space marines, sorry salamanders), I will die on that hill saying that Dark Krakens are the coolest Salamanders successors.
I personally believe on the idea of the 11th primarch ascending not to demonhood but chaos undivided godhood sacrificing the 2nd primarch. After all one has the title of the purged while the other is the forgotten. Look at Malice, its number is 11. It has Space Marines following it. And even Horus made a reference to the name of a lost primarch. Malal. Which then became Malice on 40k because legal reasons
I like to think that one of them (2nd - it was oddly mentioned that he was "very dry and serious") was a blank because idea of Primarch blank just sounds sorta metal.
I know it goes against the theory that all Primarchs are minor warp gods put into vessels by the Emperor, but my personal theory is that one of the lost Primarchs was an extremely powerful Blank, maybe powerful enough to greatly diminish Magnus' power or possibly the Emperor himself. Maybe they had to be killed cause they could block the Emperor's psychic power enough to cause the Astronomican to falter, among other reasons.
I just want to say Sons of malice chapter - bone obsessed cannibals with unclear heritage that values savagery Mortifactors - bone obsessed cannibals that are 100% definitely ultramarines that intentionally pick the most savage recruits Absolutely 2nd or 11th chapters
The Emperor told Russ to kill the second legion but his stupid ass thought II meant 11 so when he came back the Emperor whooped his ass and made him go kill both.
7:49 okay why do I feel called out with that. Honestly I agree that that might have been the intention behind the two being missing, a 'make your own primarch' slot if you will. You could have something as silly as the space maids with nekona or you could have something more serious.
Given whats happened to the 9 traitor primarchs in the 10k years since the heresy its safe to say that what happened to the lost primarchs would have happened to the traitor primarchs if the loyalists had been more successful. The imperium was in no position to be erasing evidence of the heresy en masse given its condition, and simply wouldnt be in any condition to do so for several thousand years.
My personal headcanon is that at least one of them was raised by pacifist monks, became disillusioned with the violence of the Great Crusade and decided to retire as a conscientious objector. And if that sounds like it would be a strange reason to erase a Primarch not only from life, but also history, bear in mind that the Imperium was an authoritarian regime that needed to keep the population convinced that the Emperor was always correct. Imagine the propaganda nightmare if word got out that one of his own sons, a Primarch, disagreed with the Emperor's methods.
My Dark Angels successor chapter is called The Knights of the 36th Chamber. They discovered a relic from Holy Terra in the form of the Wutang clan’s first album and have based their culture around it. They are led by Grand Master Rzael.
I stick with the notion that the space sharks are one of the lost brothers. As in the emperor knew that they were too much but loyal what better than to have them at the edge of the void too keep would be xtra galactic threats like Nids away in theory.
The new Carcharodon book Red Tithe, has some interesting lore implications. Spoilers ahead, The Carcharodon believe they were exiled to outer dark by The Emperor they call The Void Father. Implied because it's to atone for something their primarch did. They also refer to primarch as "The Forgotten one".
Some years ago, Tuesday 2's day thing GW did on its Community section had a shattered screen that somebody un-cracked that _MIGHT_ have said Rhinos. *II Rhino Legion led by the Rhino, namesake of the premier transport of the Imperium.*
Guiliman: “LION YOU’RE ALIVE! *hugs that rivals Vulkans* I THOUGHT YOU WOULD BE WITH EITHER MANFREDY OR CLARKSON! You know? The one with Conrad, the other with Sanguinius.”
3:01 I could be mistaken, but iirc there is a quote from Leman about how surprised he was a Primarch could truly die after he “”killed”” Magnus. If that is the case, I doubt it could be involving Russ.
To me, my head canon is that with each Primarch being built for a task, one of the lost ones is to fight the war in the warp itself. However he ascended into a god like being, becoming Malal/Malice. The Legionnaires would also ascend but remained loyal to the Emperor, and would become the Legion of the Damned. Now my latter part got kicked in the head when it was heavily suggested the Fire Hawks Chapter are the legion and I'm ignoring the fact they are also wearing mk7 power armour, not legion astartes armour.
More lore on the lost primarchs could be cool. Would also be funny to see some primarchs return getting teased and then its a lost primarch instead. That would be a curveball. But generally they need to do more with the primarchs they already have. Guilliman and the Lion haven't even talked yet and most of the demon primarchs are one dimensional comic book villains now.
I think one or both of The Lost Primach has too have been a Psyker like Magnus the Red. Because Malkadoor say the Primach have been made with Redundancy. (One Guy can do what another Guy can do) Magnus is the only one who doesn’t really have a Counter part. Or not ,IDK!
I was thinking about them the other day and we know one is referred to as "the Lost" which I believe is a reference to them being lost in the Warp and not since emerged as we have examples of ships disappearing for centuries to re-elected in a time that is not their own and this may of happened to one the Lost. As for the damned, I believe it refers to either a genetic flaw which would explain why Sanguinius was terrified of his legion being sanctioned for his own flaws or they fell to corruption. Also maybe some one should check that Necron's collection...
Russ definitely did something to primarch 11 though, in one of the dawn of fire novels two custodes comment on how if guilliman betrayed the big E then the wolves would be his most staunch opponents, as shown by there history with the 11th
“Officially there never was a Maid Marine Rebellion… Unofficially, in the Rangdan sub-sector, The Primarch of the Maid Marines made a declaration that the Emperor was not serving humanity ‘correctly.’ Supposedly, she spoke of the people in Hive Worlds who suffered and died for nothing while never enjoying the fruits of their labor the Imperium produced even though they devoted lives to it. She spoke of the Death Worlds Imperial Army troops were taken from and how their people suffered only to have their sons and daughters die on distant stars. She spoke of those countless worlds where people starved to death because someone misfiled paperwork. She declared that she had been made to serve Humanity and the Imperium should have been made to serve them as well. She called out the ‘Emperor’s personal atrocities.’ She called out the ‘Genocidal Iron Warriors,’ and ‘Cruel Night Lords’ as being proof enough that the Emperor’s vision was not good for humanity. She spoke of her new Imperium. The one she would rule. The one she would build where no man, woman, or child would ever fear starvation, or hunger again. Where plagues and suffering would be a thing of the past. Then, she called upon her brothers to join her, to fight against their Father for what he had done to humanity. I don’t know if it reached the Lord of Iron. I don’t know if the Night Haunter heard it’s message. I don’t know if Vulkan or even the Angel of Baal heard what she said. Perhaps, even the First Found never heard the Message calling the Primarchs to commit Patricide. But I do know, at the very least, it was heard by the Lion of Caliban, the Leader of the Rout, and The Master of Mankind. And that was enough.” -Journal of a Forgotten Dark Angel I am building a space maids army by the way. They just came out with maid dreadnoughts that I can 3-D print. Also, I think I’m one of the only people in this damn hobby who know how to make frills out of green stuff.
Cawl did have the geneseed of all the primarchs. In the conversation with robute he talks about utilizing all of the dna to bring back the full legions even the traitors ones
Years ago, ie 2002, I worked for a Table Top Gaming store, we sold an extra high volume of Games Workshop, so much so we had the Regional Manager for Games Workshop regularly visit our shop. I asked him about the two lost legions, his response was odd. Basically he said, the lore for both legions has been written, but they choose not to publish it because they want the community to have theories, and for people to make their own chapters based on them, and also the names for both legions are already known to the community. He did not elaborate, and the last bit was not said very loudly. However that was over 22 years ago, and internal notes can change, also NDA's don't last that long so if corporate leaders knew something back then I would think someone would have said something publicly since. So it is possible that his answer to me was just to make me over think, and he may have made it up on the spot. But... going over the lore, and using only the original listing of Chapters and legions from Rogue Trader and 1st Edition, I am fairly certain that the Rainbow Warriors was one of the two lot legions. I also suspect that the Carcharodon Astra (Space Sharks) are founded from them, and might have been sent to the Outer Dark on penance by the Emperor over what happened to the lost Primarch. Now we all know that the Rainbow Warriors are technically a loyal...or traitor... or loyal chapter of the Ultramarines who were founded in the ... ??? wait all records were deleted. Well we know their home world is Prism location in the Ultramar Sector, surely their chapter home will have some info. Looks at Prism (Records deleted) ??? Well the Rainbow warriors are well known? Records Deleted. Additionally their is a Chapter of some importance from Rogue Trader that was also referred to as a Legion back then that has kind of been forgotten by most. The Mentors aka Mentor Legion. However the Mentor Legion was retconned like crazy into the Mentor Chapter.
I actually like to think the warp squirrel that is Cawl, used 2nd and 11th gene seed to create some of his primaris marines, as a way of getting around Gilliman telling him not to use traitor geneseed.
It's kinda sense Leman Russ always negotiate first despite as " Emperor Executioner ". He traumatized that even after mindwiped by Malcodor, his sense body tells him "Negotiate first dont kill them AGAIN! "
Good stuff, Arthur. It's the creative aspect and the detective work that interests me. I'm just a lore guy. Head canon rarely makes sense to me and my tism-soaked brain when you don't have enough info to draw good conclusions. My ASD goes into a tailspin, but it's fun. The thing that gets me about it is that, whatever happened, it has to be bad enough that traitor marines like the Gal Vorbak *still* think it was shameful. Never mind what Dorn thought when Malcador lifted the brainlock. It's bad enough that a demon infested space marine thinks it's muy malo. Trying to think of what THAT might be is a bit mind-boggling, but it passes the time. :)
A lot of magic in a story is lost as soon as you answer the questions you left open for the community to discuss. Ask any fan of From Software's titles, the ambiguity about the story invites speculation, and it keeps people talking about games like Dark Souls or Bloodborne for years after they've been 100%'d hundreds of times. So long as the 2nd and the 11th remain a mystery, people will keep talking about them, and remain interested in the franchise as a whole
I love the creativity i can do with 40k like my gsc cult is a named one but t hey only have 1 paragraph of lore so ive been able to massively expand them for something that feels like my own
I like the idea that the missing primarchs are a contingency plan. They are hanging out in a distant corner of the galaxy waiting for some long forgotten signal. The Emps and Malcador planted false memories in everyone's mind to keep the secret.
I actually have a living second primarch as one of my main headcanon villains. After a failed muriny, he and what was left of his legion cosplayed as Necrons and took a long stasis nap. In the present, its a fun way to have a de facto 40 vs. 30k battle.
There was this group of guys on the Bolter and Chainsword forum that had made an alternate heresy where all 18 Primarchs and Legions(2 were the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons which are lost in that universe) were made from people's lost primarchs ideas and it was awesome. Things like 2 legions with underwater and void warfare specialities, slavic culture inspired legions, aztec legions a bunch of pariah legions and wild shit like that. If any of you guys are interested they have a wiki and the project is called Brotherhood of the Lost. Sadly there were some arguments between the founding people and the project disbanded but threre are good stuff out there including some rules for a couple of the legions which are WAY better and more balanced than what forgeworld or GW puts out
If I recall correctly, Ol' Lemon is blown away that a Primarch could die so he most likely didn't kill one of his brothers. BUT if one had to be captured and detained in a prison on Terra; he'd be the guy to talk to (if he was allowed to remember what happened) I also have always believed the Soul Drinkers are descended from the lost or failed legion and agree that the missing legions should remain mysterious; never give them concrete lore. I loved just theory crafting about what those two legions would have been if they were still around. Y'know? The Imperial Fists are good at defense. The Iron Warriors are good at siege warfare. What did they do? And you could cross reference it. The Dark Angels had divisions that were the blue print for all the other legions. Like they had a group that was based on fast attack and hit and run tactics, so later there was a legion that mostly relied on those tactics (White Scars). A division that only used the most nightmarishly devestating (warcrimes) weapons that would be the general make up for the Death Guard before their fall to Chaos. Just a personal thing - there were old lists of the legions way back before Games Workshop / White Dwarf decided on the "chapters" thing and the Malfactors and Rainbow Warriors were listed as legions. Those are my headcannon for what those missing legions are.
One of the Lost Primarchs was Shrek. His big power was physically changing to blend in with those who raised him (Ogre Xenos) on a planet filled with mutants and sorcery. Shrek 5 will introduce The Emperor
I dunno where I heard of it from but hearing about Fulgrim being jealous about the second Primarch could mean anything about why he was envy about that detail. I dunno we'll never know.
You can still have a lost primarch come without it altering any chapters or chapter creation. I mean after this much time to say your making a chapter based on your idea of a lost primarch. It wouldn’t really matter. Even if they are back in setting. Would having a chapter based on what they (in universe) think their forgotten legion was about even matter to them? Would seeing their primarch change then into thinking “Shit is our history a lie?” or dose that even matter if they have completely forgotten about it? Would a lost primarch even use spacemarines? There’s too many variables to consider them coming back being good or bad. What we should be talking about is how we should handle integrating this into the setting.
They either need to explain the missing Primarchs or stop giving hints, often contradictory hints, and let it lie. Let it remain a mystery and stop teasing. You can only tease for so long without a payoff.
The Death Watch and Grey Knight videos are great, but I'd love to hear your take on the Ordo Hereticus. Or even an Eisenhorn video; the path to Hell being paved with good intentions and all that.
My own personal headcanon is that Omegon and/or Alpharius is/are the Lost Primarch/s, post some kind of funky mindwipe, plastic surgery, gene-splicey funkiness. They failed and/or turned against the Emperor, so he treated them as he would have treated the Traitor Primarchs if he had survived the Heresy: like broken tools, to be fixed and reused. The taboo around talking about the Lost Primarchs is because Big E didn't want the other Primarchs to know or think about how he really sees them. Oh, and another fan theory: one or both of the Lost weren'tcoeruptwd or brainwashed into rebelling - not by Chaos and not by the Rangda. They chose it because they just didn't agree with the Emperor anymore. Which was another impetus for the Emperor annihilating even their memory: they weren't an evil antagonist, to be used as a moral lesson to teach to ignorant subjects. No, they weren't a Horus or a Satan. They were something worse and more dangerous to the Imperium: a genuine alternative.
Didn't Sanguinius somewhere express fear that the Red Thirst and Black Rage were serious enough defects to wind up getting the same fate as the lost primarchs and their legions? So maybe something DID go catastrophically wrong with their gene seed?
The missing primarks are practically a plot mystery that If i'm being honest GW will never let be solved, I honestly don't know why that's the case. Beyond fact of their existence, there exists no information about them in stuff like names, legion ,armor, weapons, flagship, Homeworld, relationships. We don't even get a hint at why they're missing, it makes no sense to me because there would effectively no reason to not develop it. It's a mystery with a strong hook, but barely any clues, and nothing to piece together. As a result almost everybody goes on to just throw whatever explanations at the wall, explanations which are often outlandish and have no evidence and to support it. And I don't think it should stay hidden forever "Just because" it would make no sense to not capitalize on this opportunity at some point. It's a Chekhov's gun thing imo, when you introduce an element of a story to the plot, at some point it should have relevance. Warhammer 40k has so many Chekhov guns, that it should called Chekhov's Armory...
2:00 so in the horas books dorn is allowed to see what happened with malcador and goes "we'd be surely lost already" something something, i forget. but if they just failed why did it freak out dorn of all people so bad?
I always imagined that one of the 2nd Primarch just never liked the emperor and turn against during the Rangdan xenocide. While the eleventh suffered from a mutation that spiral out of control but didn’t affect his sons. So he was just locked up.
Since there are several sea-related successor chapters and no primarch is like that really, I'd say one of the lost primarchs was a sea-themed primarch and he went pirate, because OBVIOUSLY he'd be a pirate. The other one should be a Japanese-themed primarch because that theme is missing from 40k hard. We have mecha stuff because of the Tau but not the traditional Japanese stuff. Other themes could be Indian or Ethiopian perhaps? There's a lot 40k still misses... What would you like to see?
I have a crazy idea for the Second and Eleventh Primarch: What if the Second was a psyker-warrior type and he was the original progenitor of the Grey Knights (what if Malcador lied about the origin of the Grey Knights). He was the only Primarch to be normal: stable gene-seed, diplomatic, logical, calm, no crazy mutations or affections. The second legion was the smallest and they specialised in cleaning up Xenos/Chaos threats after the First legion would conquer a world, just imagine witchers in 40K. This means they would constantly get in contact with other xenos and warp entities. They being logical, as their primarch, would take any chance to get stronger (as they would be immune to corruption like grey knights): artefacts, weapons, warp rituals, etc. They would also be normal and not trigger happy, so they would not have issues working together with any Xenos race to achieve their goal (as long as the cooperating xenos races are peaceful/cooperative). Building up a good networking contact list of Eldari, some Orks and even Drukhari if the situation needs it. This would seem very heretical in the eyes of the others, plus the psyker business was not tolerated back then (Magnus had the same issue). This would lead to a confrontation between Malcador and the Second, were the second would beat/embarrass Malcador and call him his fathers pet. Malcador would build up resentment towards the Second due to this and he would keep Russ ready for an eventual purge. Lemon Russ would be fuming over the situation and just be waiting for the call to start the purge. Then we have the BFF of the Second Primarch: the Eleventh. I imagined the 11th legion as being a sorcerer/warlock like legion (similar to the Thousand Sons and Magnus), and the Second and Eleventh Primarchs being close friends. The Eleventh legion would be really more like warlock based units where they subjugate space entities and use their powers for their own, but they and their father would be very susceptible to corruption and would start to fall to chaos. The first legion to do so. But being powerful warp magic users, they could hide the side-effects from the others. But, not from the Second and his legion, who specialise in hunting down their kind. So imagine a situation where the Eleventh legion is in a confrontation with some Xenos entities, falls to chaos and totally wrecks house. The second and his legion goes to try to save the Eleventh. Meanwhile word goes out that one of the these two legions has fallen to chaos (but it is not specified which one). Malcador wants revenge so he gives the order to Russ to go delete the second legion. The Second and Eleventh meet, but of course it is too late as the Eleventh has already fallen, but their bond is sincere and there is no animosity between them, just sadness. The deal is that each go on their own way and whatever happens next time they meet…happens. They shake hands/hug and wish to go their separate ways, when Russ and his legion arrives. The Eleventh thinks this a setup and yells out traitor/betrayer. From the perspective of Russ: he was sent to destroy the Second for corruption, he arrives and sees a warp corrupted Eleventh (who he never saw corrupted before, due them being sneaky beavers and hiding it) yelling betrayer at the Second. This scene makes Russ believe the Second corrupted the Eleventh and all hell breaks loose. A three way battle ensues where: the Second tries to explain and keep both Russ and Eleventh at bay, but fails miserably and eventually falls together with his small legion, the Eleventh legion is mostly purged and their Primarch captured and sent to Terra for rehabilitation. Malcador still being resentful, would later on use the gene-seed of the Second to create the Grey Knight, making them become super xenophobic and trigger happy zealots, totally opposite to their gene father. So at the end: the Second falls, but we have no confirmation of death, so he might still be out there protecting the imperium but planning to destroy the Inquisition who have used his gene-seed sons to commit atrocities, purges and the destruction of the friendly xenos network he has built up. The Eleventh is held in Terra and still corrupted and confused of what the fuck happened. Russ who kind of realised what he has done and is now resentful of his actions (he actually talks with remorse about killing another Primarch). Malcador gets french fried on the throne and dies, taking the truth with him. This would open up an opportunity for a grimdark story where the Second, who is hunting the Inquisition members for using the Grey Knights, meets his sons the Grey Knights who don’t know jack shit and wish to kill him. This was my TED talk, thank you for reading. Cheers!
I've always held the belief that each Primarch had a designed and designated purpose for them after the Great Crusade. Mortarion being the backer of the average human, as was Vulcan. With this in Mind, I asked myself years ago, "What were the 2nd and 11ths purposes?" For one, it has to be the anti-psyker/pariah angle. Magnus's equal and opposite. Their elimination by the the Wolves and Dark Angles prescribed by the Emperor because of the trauma that Primarch experienced. Maybe from extreme isolation, as the warp could not transport him past a cloud of asteroids. Maybe some xenos kept him as a test subject, subjected to soul torture so great the legion was at risk of insanity! Who knows! It's just fun to ponder on.
One of my favorite lost primarch projects i ever came across, was the lightning bearers by Athwares on bolter and chainsword forums He had some interesting ideas concerning the imperial tarot and their relation to the primarchs
If I remember correctly, back during the 1st edition, some Chapters were referred to as Legions, like the Mentors or the Raptors also, there were the Valedictors from White Dwarf magazine
I honestly think that having the Lost Primarchs stay lost is actually more interesting than them returning. The sense of mystery, of not knowing, the occasional hint of what might have happened. I think that’s more fun than a concrete answer. Sometimes a mystery is only fascinating because it’s just that: a mystery.
There's a Taoist parable about how the empty place at the hub of the wheel is the thing that makes the wheel useful. Your point about not officially filling in the lore of the lost primarchs reminds me of that.
My personal 2nd primarch is based on Irish folklore and is heavily inspired by Cu’Culain. Him and his sons had the 40k equivalent of warp spasms which functioned like a combination of the flesh change and the black rage turning them into frothing berserkers and making them way bigger and stronger while making them heavily resistant to the warp. Their primarch ended up succumbing to this and it took three legions and their primarchs to stop him and his legion.
My headcanon is that the second primarch had heavy character flaws (Too arrogant? Bad at tactics? Too impulsive?) so he commanded his legion to its doom. Maybe he and his legion were destroyed in one great battle against a lost human empire. The primarch underestimated the enemy and fell into an ambush, which caused heavy losses for his legion. The foolish primarch died during the battle. So the II legion straight up failed during the Great Crusade. Most of them died and the remaining ones joined other legions. I like to think that the Alpha Legion was involved somehow in containing the mess and censoring things. Because the Emperor cannot have word spread that one of his legions were wiped out, to maintain his propaganda. The eleventh primarch and his legion ended up getting mind controlled by the rangdan. So the legion was purged by the dark angels. This also was not good for imperial propaganda so this incident was deleted from the record. The non brainwashed XI legion marines who fought their brainwashed brothers were honored by getting mind wiped and sent to other legions. Also the rainbow warriors and the valedictors will always be the lost legions in my heart.
To be honest I'd be cool with the idea of getting some lore (particularly about the Ragdan Xenocides) and maybe one of them returning. Might be fun to have a primarch that was something like Loki: a trickster with a sense of humor, maybe physically smaller than even Alpharius & Omegon. Just something different.
If we ever see one or both of the lost primarchs, I hope its something super unique and metal as hell like samurai, aztec, apache or something along those lines. something hardcore as hell that is fun to paint and has unique weapons
One was the primarch of the Emperor's cunning brutality.
The other was the primarch of the Emperor's brutal levels of cunning.
*mind blown, claps claps*
They’re currently behind the couch in the Imperial Palace.
If that were true, JD Vance would have found them.
@@MiniatureMasterClass What are you referencing?
@@dean_l33 JD Vance, Donald Trump’s vp pick fucked a couch
@@MiniatureMasterClass?
@@dean_l33 Vance fucking a couch.
Dorn's head nearly exploded when Malcador allowed him to remember the 2nd primarch putting pineapple on a pizza while the 11th primarch replaced a roll of toilet paper backwards....
The 11th made a peanut butter and mayo sandwich and the emperor realized his son was lost
Oh dear lord my head it’s gonna explode after reading this atrocities. Not even the ruinous powers are this bad. Oh ggooodddd……
One of the lost primarchs being kept alive to prevent their legion from going nuts does fit. I personally like the idea of it being the Angel for funsies.
It would be fascinating if one of the Lost Primarchs was raised on a Xenos planet. The Rangdan Xenocide is him and his Legion dying to protect his planet from the Imperium.
Honestly I think alpharius/omegron is nothing more than a hivemind after their baby form got hit by a genestealer and the genetic changes backfired.
my new headcannon
Question is how would they get a space marine legion they haven't been assigned at all let alone one they would probably have fought against?
@@trance7443 when in doubt blame Magnus
@@YakubTheFather or lorgar
in the heresy books, dorn finds out they were mindwiped about the lost primarchs and malcador unlocks those for dorn temporarily and hes furious at what the lost primarchs did and said if they were around terra wouldve been lost long ago. in a different book, guilliman or dorn, i cant remember basically says the traitors havent been scrubbed from the record, imagine what the lost primarchs had to do to get scrubbed
In universe, one of them is pretty much erase from existence and the other merely censure for whatever reason. So the one Dorn remember have to be the forgotten one right? Cause there's no reason to block a memory when you can just stumble over a classified file
@@dean_l33 nah dorn specifically asked malcador to erase his and the others memories about what they did. Whatever he saw was both of them. But it is Warhammer so who knows, maybe malcador showed him a changed memory. It’s in praetorian of dorn if you want to search for it
I think the complete scrub success does not make sense in 40k, chaos would not forget. Deamons would bring up the names of the primarchs and legions just to spite.
Makes you wonder what they did to put them at that much of a threat. The only ideas I have is either: They were corrupted by chaos and attempted to open another eye of terror on terra, or they attempted to assassinate the Big E himself. Granted, that's assuming Malcador was being honest, could be that they were erased for something else and it was a false memory, you never know.
The other thing they could have done was to work with xenos (namely Eldar) to deal with the threat of stuff like Tyranids etc.
The fact that their legions were integrated into two of, if not the most rigid legions/chapters though so that doesn't make sense if the primarchs and legions turned traitor or had something inherently wrong with them.
I've heard from some people that when the Emperor sent Leman Russ to get rid of someone he wanted everyone to know it and when Big E sent The Lion he wanted nobody left alive and no bulding, no monument and no name carved in stone to be left intact.
I'd just like to add a detail; a space marine actually produces two progenoid glands. One is removed when it's mature from the neck, one on death. So space marines generally are expected to produce two 'offspring' apiece. One new one and a replacement.
Certainly explains how they’re able to maintain their numbers, impossible to recover all the gene seed.
I think the 11th is a primarch level blank. Powerful blanks are hard to see so i figure a primarch blank would be completely invisible. Itd explain why his cell is empty too, hes there you just cant see him.
And coincidentally his armor is purple
@@averageanon5504 HAH
Would he still be visible in infrared?
@averageanon5504 I don't know, man. Fulgrim is VERY visible
Wouldn't a blank of that level basically make everyone around them go insane immediately? Pariahs and culexus assassins are already bad enough, a primarch would probably be impossible to be near of
James Workshop is truly a genius and has a solution in their pocket to the Xenos army sales problem. Release a Xenos army in the future with a space marine primarch HQ.
Ok but imagine the tau with a clone primarch!
The 11th Primarch ascended into Demonhood to become Malice and no one can tell me otherwise
I would be fine with that. It's solid storytelling.
Yo I believe the same thing!
This. All the Emperor-damned this.
🤓
No one can tell me otherwise ~🤓
Nah, we all know there are only the nine primarchs
That was such a cool moment with rowboat
Sanguinius, bobby G, and the other 7
The Emperor made nine angels to combat the Great Enemy's nine demons. Everyone knows that.
U know nothing...
@@_Emperor_of_Mankind_Aren't you supposed to be withering on a Golden Throne?
I lean towards at least one of the Lost Primarchs being a driving reason why the Emperor and Malcador were so stubborn about keeping the truth of the Warp out of reach of most of the Primarchs.
A Lost Primarch was on-record to have investigated the Ymga Monolith, which is a Necron construct so powerful that it TANKED a Warp Storm from the Great Rift, AND is capable of duplicating entire Necron fleets at the snap of a finger. Not even a time-intensive process like the Star Forge from KOTOR, just a Necron ship touching the artifact and copying itself like a literal cheat code.
A Lost Primarch trying to find a solution to Chaos and failing isn't the scarier option. *The scarier option is that Lost Primarch seeking a solution to Chaos and SUCCEEDING.* The Emperor wasn't actually trying to eliminate the Immaterium, because that would have made the Imperial Webway Project dead-on-arrival. Completely erasing the Warp would very likely condemn Humanity as a whole. It's entirely possible that a Lost Primarch misinterpreted his father's intentions, aimed for the wrong goal, and produced a potential result that Big E never wanted.
Also note that the psychic mind-wipe is very likely NOT standard M.O. for the Emperor. The mind-wipe was EXPLICITLY requested by both Dorn and Guilliman, which thickens the plot even more because they both survived the Heresy and didn't think the circumstances dire enough to merit another similar memory-hole measure. Which is wild, because those circumstances include the death of their Father.
Hmm, that's not dissimilar from my belief that at least one of the lost primarchs should have been right. The tragedy of 40k can only be heightened by a primarch who had the foresight to make better choices but was denied that chance by his family being unable to trust him.
I like how of all the lost primarch videos, this is the first one I've seen where the creator has the simple theory of the emperor deletes records more, and he wasn't around to delete the whole heresy, or it was too big to hide. Definitely easier to get behind than trying to think of something more terrible than the chaos legions
I also think the whole memories of the missing primarchs being so horrible they wished to forget them is actually just malcador Implanting false memories to keep them from doubting the emperor.
1) I like the theory that the Rangdan were HUMAN and had an alternate vision for humanity which convinced the 2nd to defect. The reason he had to be written out was because the Emperor couldn't let that alternate vision be allowed to be spread. And he was able to put his whole might behind stamping it out, which he couldn't do after the Horus Hersey because, well, mostly dead now, Imperium in ruins, traitors everywhere, etc.
2) only bring the 2 back if your goal is ENDING the current setting entirely.
The plan is to split apharius and omegon
Lmao. I thought the same.
maybe when the emperor showed up to his planet one of the primarchs was like “nah I’m good here” and he’s just living his best life on his home planet, still sends the emperor Christmas cards and Father’s Day gifts
Cawl had access to the Sangprimus Portum, he didn't have to hunt for leftover geneseed when he could've made it from the source.
From Cawl's POV the geneseed and the Emperor 's design didn't failed the primarchs are the ones who failed.
Headcanon for me is
Forgotten Primarch was a pacifist who refused to fight and took the "traitor" parts of his legion to go off and live in peace in a random corner of the universe. He just wasn't vibing with any of the xenophobia of the great crusade. He wasn't treated poorly because he wasn't causing Big E any issues so he got to live his life with his sons in peace. I also have a second theory about him which is the entire legion is the Blank version of the Thousand Sons and they are forgotten because we literally cannot see them. He was sent off alone and no one enters that point in space since the sheer amount of blankness keeps it "hidden:". Either way the second primarch is a happy boy living his life.
Purged Primarch is like the super mega heresy boy. He and the traitor parts of his army did something so heinous that he just had to be killed. Leman Russ did it. As for what he did I have no idea but it was BAD. For an analogy, the bible talks about Sodom and Gommorah, and eventually sodomy became a word in English. To my knowledge we don't have an equivalent word for Gommorah in English. Horus was the thing that was bad, the evil we know. We don't even have a word for what the Purged did, which is lowkey terrifying.
Saw a world building game where a Blank Primarch was sent to colonize/conquer another galaxy in our local cluster as a back up in case the Emperor and Imperium failed.
Forgotten Primarch is a blank version of the thousand sons, but also grew up in a dark age world that praised AI and science.
He was simply forgotten so the others wouldn't ever bother him again
He would have been killed if he refused. Big E doesn't leave loose ends like that.
He- heresy!? At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localized entirely within your youtube video!?
yes!
"Lord Inquisitor! This man is revealing the fate of the lost Primarchs!"
"No Ecclesiarch, it's just plain old heresy."
I have two of my own (completely unprovable and not based on any evidence whatsoever) theories regarding the lost Primarchs:
First Theory: They were religious in some capacity. The Emperor was pretty vehement about enforcing the Imperial Truth, and there’s no guarantee that all of the Primarchs would be on board with giving up any sense of faith and/or persecuting it. Case in point, Lorgar. If the Emperor was willing to burn down Monachia so callously, it’s a cinch he may have been willing to kill some other sons who decided they didn’t jive with state-enforced persecution of religion, especially if they had adopted some form of faith themselves. Then again, the obvious weakness to this theory is that Lorgar was never struck from record, so there’s that.
Second Theory: The Lost Primarchs were cool with Xenos and/or Abominable Intelligence living side by side with humanity. It’s possible that the lost Primarchs landed on a world/worlds where Xenos and humans could either coexist peacefully, or at least exist near each other without the great urge to automatically genocide each other. It’s also possible that, like with the Leagues of Votann, the lost Primarchs could have ended up on a rare world where AI was considered the norm. If the lost Primarchs felt that Xenos or AI (or even both) were actually pretty cool, and they would rather chill with them than destroy them, the Emperor may have felt that their offense was too great to permit.
Heck. If the lost Primarchs ended up being a pair of dudes who would crack open a cold one with a Xeno while chatting up the AI bartender and talking about how they enjoyed praying to whatever foreign Xeno gods, the Emperor would throw a fit!
The 11th rose in treachery and crisis to become the Axle of the Eight Pointed Star; Malice, and the 2nd died to save the Imperium from them.
I like the lost chapters and primarchs who just don't exist.
I’ve been occasionally working over this summer on my own Lost Primarch. I’ve been trying to do my best to connect to several plot points found in the lore, have a few historical inspirations for the character and his history, create a small culture for his planet also with a couple historical inspirations, and even have a Geneseed association much like how Inquisitor Vuln attributes Geneseed to certain Primarchs.
My headcanon is that when the 2nd lost primarch was discovered by the emperor it was found that he had made peace with the aliens and even gotten himself a Rangdan Xenowife.
This obviously did not go well with the Emperor.
As one of a few Dark Krakens fans (they're my new favorite space marines, sorry salamanders), I will die on that hill saying that Dark Krakens are the coolest Salamanders successors.
I personally believe on the idea of the 11th primarch ascending not to demonhood but chaos undivided godhood sacrificing the 2nd primarch. After all one has the title of the purged while the other is the forgotten. Look at Malice, its number is 11. It has Space Marines following it. And even Horus made a reference to the name of a lost primarch. Malal. Which then became Malice on 40k because legal reasons
I like to think that one of them (2nd - it was oddly mentioned that he was "very dry and serious") was a blank because idea of Primarch blank just sounds sorta metal.
I know it goes against the theory that all Primarchs are minor warp gods put into vessels by the Emperor, but my personal theory is that one of the lost Primarchs was an extremely powerful Blank, maybe powerful enough to greatly diminish Magnus' power or possibly the Emperor himself.
Maybe they had to be killed cause they could block the Emperor's psychic power enough to cause the Astronomican to falter, among other reasons.
I just want to say
Sons of malice chapter - bone obsessed cannibals with unclear heritage that values savagery
Mortifactors - bone obsessed cannibals that are 100% definitely ultramarines that intentionally pick the most savage recruits
Absolutely 2nd or 11th chapters
Cool idea
The Emperor told Russ to kill the second legion but his stupid ass thought II meant 11 so when he came back the Emperor whooped his ass and made him go kill both.
The Lost Primarchs should come back but only as spirits smiling approvingly at Roboute Guiliman when he finally slams Yvraine.
7:49 okay why do I feel called out with that. Honestly I agree that that might have been the intention behind the two being missing, a 'make your own primarch' slot if you will. You could have something as silly as the space maids with nekona or you could have something more serious.
Given whats happened to the 9 traitor primarchs in the 10k years since the heresy its safe to say that what happened to the lost primarchs would have happened to the traitor primarchs if the loyalists had been more successful. The imperium was in no position to be erasing evidence of the heresy en masse given its condition, and simply wouldnt be in any condition to do so for several thousand years.
My personal headcanon is that at least one of them was raised by pacifist monks, became disillusioned with the violence of the Great Crusade and decided to retire as a conscientious objector. And if that sounds like it would be a strange reason to erase a Primarch not only from life, but also history, bear in mind that the Imperium was an authoritarian regime that needed to keep the population convinced that the Emperor was always correct. Imagine the propaganda nightmare if word got out that one of his own sons, a Primarch, disagreed with the Emperor's methods.
My Dark Angels successor chapter is called The Knights of the 36th Chamber. They discovered a relic from Holy Terra in the form of the Wutang clan’s first album and have based their culture around it. They are led by Grand Master Rzael.
that goes hard
I stick with the notion that the space sharks are one of the lost brothers. As in the emperor knew that they were too much but loyal what better than to have them at the edge of the void too keep would be xtra galactic threats like Nids away in theory.
"You ask for trust and say it'll all make sense in the end but that's what Dad said and look where his secrecy got us" --Magnus probably
The new Carcharodon book Red Tithe, has some interesting lore implications. Spoilers ahead, The Carcharodon believe they were exiled to outer dark by The Emperor they call The Void Father. Implied because it's to atone for something their primarch did. They also refer to primarch as "The Forgotten one".
Some years ago, Tuesday 2's day thing GW did on its Community section had a shattered screen that somebody un-cracked that _MIGHT_ have said Rhinos.
*II Rhino Legion led by the Rhino, namesake of the premier transport of the Imperium.*
Guiliman: “LION YOU’RE ALIVE! *hugs that rivals Vulkans* I THOUGHT YOU WOULD BE WITH EITHER MANFREDY OR CLARKSON! You know? The one with Conrad, the other with Sanguinius.”
Totally agree that the best part of the setting is the space it leaves for individual creativity.
I would imagine that the people who want the 11's primarchs back have large overlap with people who what Ferris Manus, Sanguinious and Horus back
3:01
I could be mistaken, but iirc there is a quote from Leman about how surprised he was a Primarch could truly die after he “”killed”” Magnus. If that is the case, I doubt it could be involving Russ.
my favorite chapter the Angry Marines and their primarch Piss Babyius
To me, my head canon is that with each Primarch being built for a task, one of the lost ones is to fight the war in the warp itself. However he ascended into a god like being, becoming Malal/Malice. The Legionnaires would also ascend but remained loyal to the Emperor, and would become the Legion of the Damned.
Now my latter part got kicked in the head when it was heavily suggested the Fire Hawks Chapter are the legion and I'm ignoring the fact they are also wearing mk7 power armour, not legion astartes armour.
My theory is that the 2nd and 11th were subsumed by the Rangda, the 2nd willingly, the 11th was tricked
The 2nd Primarch was a devout Catholic and the 11th was Orthodox and the Emperor got sick of them arguing about the Filioque.
More lore on the lost primarchs could be cool. Would also be funny to see some primarchs return getting teased and then its a lost primarch instead. That would be a curveball. But generally they need to do more with the primarchs they already have. Guilliman and the Lion haven't even talked yet and most of the demon primarchs are one dimensional comic book villains now.
I think one or both of The Lost Primach has too have been a Psyker like Magnus the Red.
Because Malkadoor say the Primach have been made with Redundancy.
(One Guy can do what another Guy can do)
Magnus is the only one who doesn’t really have a Counter part.
Or not ,IDK!
I was thinking about them the other day and we know one is referred to as "the Lost" which I believe is a reference to them being lost in the Warp and not since emerged as we have examples of ships disappearing for centuries to re-elected in a time that is not their own and this may of happened to one the Lost.
As for the damned, I believe it refers to either a genetic flaw which would explain why Sanguinius was terrified of his legion being sanctioned for his own flaws or they fell to corruption.
Also maybe some one should check that Necron's collection...
Russ definitely did something to primarch 11 though, in one of the dawn of fire novels two custodes comment on how if guilliman betrayed the big E then the wolves would be his most staunch opponents, as shown by there history with the 11th
My head cannon is that the second primarch looks like Radagon of the golden order in his prime.
“Officially there never was a Maid Marine Rebellion…
Unofficially, in the Rangdan sub-sector, The Primarch of the Maid Marines made a declaration that the Emperor was not serving humanity ‘correctly.’
Supposedly, she spoke of the people in Hive Worlds who suffered and died for nothing while never enjoying the fruits of their labor the Imperium produced even though they devoted lives to it. She spoke of the Death Worlds Imperial Army troops were taken from and how their people suffered only to have their sons and daughters die on distant stars. She spoke of those countless worlds where people starved to death because someone misfiled paperwork.
She declared that she had been made to serve Humanity and the Imperium should have been made to serve them as well.
She called out the ‘Emperor’s personal atrocities.’ She called out the ‘Genocidal Iron Warriors,’ and ‘Cruel Night Lords’ as being proof enough that the Emperor’s vision was not good for humanity.
She spoke of her new Imperium. The one she would rule. The one she would build where no man, woman, or child would ever fear starvation, or hunger again. Where plagues and suffering would be a thing of the past.
Then, she called upon her brothers to join her, to fight against their Father for what he had done to humanity.
I don’t know if it reached the Lord of Iron.
I don’t know if the Night Haunter heard it’s message.
I don’t know if Vulkan or even the Angel of Baal heard what she said.
Perhaps, even the First Found never heard the Message calling the Primarchs to commit Patricide.
But I do know, at the very least, it was heard by the Lion of Caliban, the Leader of the Rout, and The Master of Mankind.
And that was enough.”
-Journal of a Forgotten Dark Angel
I am building a space maids army by the way. They just came out with maid dreadnoughts that I can 3-D print. Also, I think I’m one of the only people in this damn hobby who know how to make frills out of green stuff.
Cawl did have the geneseed of all the primarchs. In the conversation with robute he talks about utilizing all of the dna to bring back the full legions even the traitors ones
Years ago, ie 2002, I worked for a Table Top Gaming store, we sold an extra high volume of Games Workshop, so much so we had the Regional Manager for Games Workshop regularly visit our shop. I asked him about the two lost legions, his response was odd.
Basically he said, the lore for both legions has been written, but they choose not to publish it because they want the community to have theories, and for people to make their own chapters based on them, and also the names for both legions are already known to the community. He did not elaborate, and the last bit was not said very loudly. However that was over 22 years ago, and internal notes can change, also NDA's don't last that long so if corporate leaders knew something back then I would think someone would have said something publicly since. So it is possible that his answer to me was just to make me over think, and he may have made it up on the spot.
But... going over the lore, and using only the original listing of Chapters and legions from Rogue Trader and 1st Edition, I am fairly certain that the Rainbow Warriors was one of the two lot legions. I also suspect that the Carcharodon Astra (Space Sharks) are founded from them, and might have been sent to the Outer Dark on penance by the Emperor over what happened to the lost Primarch.
Now we all know that the Rainbow Warriors are technically a loyal...or traitor... or loyal chapter of the Ultramarines who were founded in the ... ??? wait all records were deleted. Well we know their home world is Prism location in the Ultramar Sector, surely their chapter home will have some info. Looks at Prism (Records deleted) ???
Well the Rainbow warriors are well known? Records Deleted.
Additionally their is a Chapter of some importance from Rogue Trader that was also referred to as a Legion back then that has kind of been forgotten by most. The Mentors aka Mentor Legion. However the Mentor Legion was retconned like crazy into the Mentor Chapter.
I actually like to think the warp squirrel that is Cawl, used 2nd and 11th gene seed to create some of his primaris marines, as a way of getting around Gilliman telling him not to use traitor geneseed.
Russ was sent to exterminate the 11th legion but he didn't understand how roman numerals work.
6:49 You remind me two fan made primach --
Icarion Anasem/ Lightning Bearers（II）
Gwalchavad / Wardens of light（XI）
They’re hiding in Dorn’s tree house waiting for the best moment to return
It's kinda sense Leman Russ always negotiate first despite as " Emperor Executioner ". He traumatized that even after mindwiped by Malcodor, his sense body tells him "Negotiate first dont kill them AGAIN! "
Good stuff, Arthur. It's the creative aspect and the detective work that interests me. I'm just a lore guy. Head canon rarely makes sense to me and my tism-soaked brain when you don't have enough info to draw good conclusions. My ASD goes into a tailspin, but it's fun.
The thing that gets me about it is that, whatever happened, it has to be bad enough that traitor marines like the Gal Vorbak *still* think it was shameful. Never mind what Dorn thought when Malcador lifted the brainlock. It's bad enough that a demon infested space marine thinks it's muy malo. Trying to think of what THAT might be is a bit mind-boggling, but it passes the time. :)
A lot of magic in a story is lost as soon as you answer the questions you left open for the community to discuss. Ask any fan of From Software's titles, the ambiguity about the story invites speculation, and it keeps people talking about games like Dark Souls or Bloodborne for years after they've been 100%'d hundreds of times. So long as the 2nd and the 11th remain a mystery, people will keep talking about them, and remain interested in the franchise as a whole
Malibron. Rainbow Warriors and Death Strike are the remnants of his legion. Colours blue yellow and red
I love the creativity i can do with 40k like my gsc cult is a named one but t hey only have 1 paragraph of lore so ive been able to massively expand them for something that feels like my own
I like the idea that the missing primarchs are a contingency plan. They are hanging out in a distant corner of the galaxy waiting for some long forgotten signal. The Emps and Malcador planted false memories in everyone's mind to keep the secret.
0:33 lol 😂 you made laugh in a week that has run me over 7 ways in a tank. Thank you
Where's part 4 of the iceberg, Mr Bones.
I actually have a living second primarch as one of my main headcanon villains. After a failed muriny, he and what was left of his legion cosplayed as Necrons and took a long stasis nap. In the present, its a fun way to have a de facto 40 vs. 30k battle.
There was this group of guys on the Bolter and Chainsword forum that had made an alternate heresy where all 18 Primarchs and Legions(2 were the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons which are lost in that universe) were made from people's lost primarchs ideas and it was awesome. Things like 2 legions with underwater and void warfare specialities, slavic culture inspired legions, aztec legions a bunch of pariah legions and wild shit like that. If any of you guys are interested they have a wiki and the project is called Brotherhood of the Lost. Sadly there were some arguments between the founding people and the project disbanded but threre are good stuff out there including some rules for a couple of the legions which are WAY better and more balanced than what forgeworld or GW puts out
If I recall correctly, Ol' Lemon is blown away that a Primarch could die so he most likely didn't kill one of his brothers. BUT if one had to be captured and detained in a prison on Terra; he'd be the guy to talk to (if he was allowed to remember what happened)
I also have always believed the Soul Drinkers are descended from the lost or failed legion and agree that the missing legions should remain mysterious; never give them concrete lore.
I loved just theory crafting about what those two legions would have been if they were still around. Y'know? The Imperial Fists are good at defense. The Iron Warriors are good at siege warfare. What did they do? And you could cross reference it. The Dark Angels had divisions that were the blue print for all the other legions. Like they had a group that was based on fast attack and hit and run tactics, so later there was a legion that mostly relied on those tactics (White Scars). A division that only used the most nightmarishly devestating (warcrimes) weapons that would be the general make up for the Death Guard before their fall to Chaos.
Just a personal thing - there were old lists of the legions way back before Games Workshop / White Dwarf decided on the "chapters" thing and the Malfactors and Rainbow Warriors were listed as legions. Those are my headcannon for what those missing legions are.
Valdictors* Not Malfactors
One of the Lost Primarchs was Shrek. His big power was physically changing to blend in with those who raised him (Ogre Xenos) on a planet filled with mutants and sorcery. Shrek 5 will introduce The Emperor
I dunno where I heard of it from but hearing about Fulgrim being jealous about the second Primarch could mean anything about why he was envy about that detail. I dunno we'll never know.
You can still have a lost primarch come without it altering any chapters or chapter creation.
I mean after this much time to say your making a chapter based on your idea of a lost primarch. It wouldn’t really matter.
Even if they are back in setting. Would having a chapter based on what they (in universe) think their forgotten legion was about even matter to them?
Would seeing their primarch change then into thinking “Shit is our history a lie?” or dose that even matter if they have completely forgotten about it?
Would a lost primarch even use spacemarines?
There’s too many variables to consider them coming back being good or bad. What we should be talking about is how we should handle integrating this into the setting.
They either need to explain the missing Primarchs or stop giving hints, often contradictory hints, and let it lie. Let it remain a mystery and stop teasing. You can only tease for so long without a payoff.
lost primarchs are the gene seed for the sisters of silence.
The Death Watch and Grey Knight videos are great, but I'd love to hear your take on the Ordo Hereticus. Or even an Eisenhorn video; the path to Hell being paved with good intentions and all that.
there's a scene in first heretic that reveals a lot about what might have happened to them
magnus also hints that lorgar almost joined their fate
My own personal headcanon is that Omegon and/or Alpharius is/are the Lost Primarch/s, post some kind of funky mindwipe, plastic surgery, gene-splicey funkiness.
They failed and/or turned against the Emperor, so he treated them as he would have treated the Traitor Primarchs if he had survived the Heresy: like broken tools, to be fixed and reused. The taboo around talking about the Lost Primarchs is because Big E didn't want the other Primarchs to know or think about how he really sees them.
Oh, and another fan theory: one or both of the Lost weren'tcoeruptwd or brainwashed into rebelling - not by Chaos and not by the Rangda. They chose it because they just didn't agree with the Emperor anymore. Which was another impetus for the Emperor annihilating even their memory: they weren't an evil antagonist, to be used as a moral lesson to teach to ignorant subjects. No, they weren't a Horus or a Satan. They were something worse and more dangerous to the Imperium: a genuine alternative.
Didn't Sanguinius somewhere express fear that the Red Thirst and Black Rage were serious enough defects to wind up getting the same fate as the lost primarchs and their legions?
So maybe something DID go catastrophically wrong with their gene seed?
The OG purpose of the 2 lost primarchs going back to pre-3rd was so you could create your own homebrew chapter.
The missing primarks are practically a plot mystery that If i'm being honest GW will never let be solved, I honestly don't know why that's the case. Beyond fact of their existence, there exists no information about them in stuff like names, legion ,armor, weapons, flagship, Homeworld, relationships. We don't even get a hint at why they're missing, it makes no sense to me because there would effectively no reason to not develop it.
It's a mystery with a strong hook, but barely any clues, and nothing to piece together.
As a result almost everybody goes on to just throw whatever explanations at the wall, explanations which are often outlandish and have no evidence and to support it.
And I don't think it should stay hidden forever "Just because" it would make no sense to not capitalize on this opportunity at some point. It's a Chekhov's gun thing imo, when you introduce an element of a story to the plot, at some point it should have relevance.
Warhammer 40k has so many Chekhov guns, that it should called Chekhov's Armory...
2:00 so in the horas books dorn is allowed to see what happened with malcador and goes "we'd be surely lost already" something something, i forget. but if they just failed why did it freak out dorn of all people so bad?
I always imagined that one of the 2nd Primarch just never liked the emperor and turn against during the Rangdan xenocide. While the eleventh suffered from a mutation that spiral out of control but didn’t affect his sons. So he was just locked up.
Since there are several sea-related successor chapters and no primarch is like that really, I'd say one of the lost primarchs was a sea-themed primarch and he went pirate, because OBVIOUSLY he'd be a pirate.
The other one should be a Japanese-themed primarch because that theme is missing from 40k hard. We have mecha stuff because of the Tau but not the traditional Japanese stuff.
Other themes could be Indian or Ethiopian perhaps? There's a lot 40k still misses... What would you like to see?
"Nothing, we were all on holiday."
I have a crazy idea for the Second and Eleventh Primarch:
What if the Second was a psyker-warrior type and he was the original progenitor of the Grey Knights (what if Malcador lied about the origin of the Grey Knights). He was the only Primarch to be normal: stable gene-seed, diplomatic, logical, calm, no crazy mutations or affections. The second legion was the smallest and they specialised in cleaning up Xenos/Chaos threats after the First legion would conquer a world, just imagine witchers in 40K. This means they would constantly get in contact with other xenos and warp entities. They being logical, as their primarch, would take any chance to get stronger (as they would be immune to corruption like grey knights): artefacts, weapons, warp rituals, etc.
They would also be normal and not trigger happy, so they would not have issues working together with any Xenos race to achieve their goal (as long as the cooperating xenos races are peaceful/cooperative). Building up a good networking contact list of Eldari, some Orks and even Drukhari if the situation needs it.
This would seem very heretical in the eyes of the others, plus the psyker business was not tolerated back then (Magnus had the same issue). This would lead to a confrontation between Malcador and the Second, were the second would beat/embarrass Malcador and call him his fathers pet. Malcador would build up resentment towards the Second due to this and he would keep Russ ready for an eventual purge. Lemon Russ would be fuming over the situation and just be waiting for the call to start the purge.
Then we have the BFF of the Second Primarch: the Eleventh. I imagined the 11th legion as being a sorcerer/warlock like legion (similar to the Thousand Sons and Magnus), and the Second and Eleventh Primarchs being close friends. The Eleventh legion would be really more like warlock based units where they subjugate space entities and use their powers for their own, but they and their father would be very susceptible to corruption and would start to fall to chaos. The first legion to do so. But being powerful warp magic users, they could hide the side-effects from the others. But, not from the Second and his legion, who specialise in hunting down their kind.
So imagine a situation where the Eleventh legion is in a confrontation with some Xenos entities, falls to chaos and totally wrecks house. The second and his legion goes to try to save the Eleventh. Meanwhile word goes out that one of the these two legions has fallen to chaos (but it is not specified which one). Malcador wants revenge so he gives the order to Russ to go delete the second legion. The Second and Eleventh meet, but of course it is too late as the Eleventh has already fallen, but their bond is sincere and there is no animosity between them, just sadness. The deal is that each go on their own way and whatever happens next time they meet…happens. They shake hands/hug and wish to go their separate ways, when Russ and his legion arrives.
The Eleventh thinks this a setup and yells out traitor/betrayer. From the perspective of Russ: he was sent to destroy the Second for corruption, he arrives and sees a warp corrupted Eleventh (who he never saw corrupted before, due them being sneaky beavers and hiding it) yelling betrayer at the Second. This scene makes Russ believe the Second corrupted the Eleventh and all hell breaks loose. A three way battle ensues where: the Second tries to explain and keep both Russ and Eleventh at bay, but fails miserably and eventually falls together with his small legion, the Eleventh legion is mostly purged and their Primarch captured and sent to Terra for rehabilitation.
Malcador still being resentful, would later on use the gene-seed of the Second to create the Grey Knight, making them become super xenophobic and trigger happy zealots, totally opposite to their gene father. So at the end: the Second falls, but we have no confirmation of death, so he might still be out there protecting the imperium but planning to destroy the Inquisition who have used his gene-seed sons to commit atrocities, purges and the destruction of the friendly xenos network he has built up. The Eleventh is held in Terra and still corrupted and confused of what the fuck happened. Russ who kind of realised what he has done and is now resentful of his actions (he actually talks with remorse about killing another Primarch). Malcador gets french fried on the throne and dies, taking the truth with him.
This would open up an opportunity for a grimdark story where the Second, who is hunting the Inquisition members for using the Grey Knights, meets his sons the Grey Knights who don’t know jack shit and wish to kill him.
This was my TED talk, thank you for reading. Cheers!
There chilling on a paradise world drinking margaritas of the non-oil variety.
I've always held the belief that each Primarch had a designed and designated purpose for them after the Great Crusade. Mortarion being the backer of the average human, as was Vulcan.
With this in Mind, I asked myself years ago, "What were the 2nd and 11ths purposes?"
For one, it has to be the anti-psyker/pariah angle. Magnus's equal and opposite.
Their elimination by the the Wolves and Dark Angles prescribed by the Emperor because of the trauma that Primarch experienced. Maybe from extreme isolation, as the warp could not transport him past a cloud of asteroids. Maybe some xenos kept him as a test subject, subjected to soul torture so great the legion was at risk of insanity! Who knows! It's just fun to ponder on.
One of my favorite lost primarch projects i ever came across, was the lightning bearers by Athwares on bolter and chainsword forums
He had some interesting ideas concerning the imperial tarot and their relation to the primarchs
If I remember correctly, back during the 1st edition, some Chapters were referred to as Legions, like the Mentors or the Raptors
also, there were the Valedictors from White Dwarf magazine
I honestly think that having the Lost Primarchs stay lost is actually more interesting than them returning. The sense of mystery, of not knowing, the occasional hint of what might have happened. I think that’s more fun than a concrete answer. Sometimes a mystery is only fascinating because it’s just that: a mystery.
Whoever edited this video and put the iFunny watermark meme in there, I love you keep up the good work
There's a Taoist parable about how the empty place at the hub of the wheel is the thing that makes the wheel useful. Your point about not officially filling in the lore of the lost primarchs reminds me of that.
When malcador showed dorn his wiped memories, dorn basically said "I get it now, if they were still alive we would have lost by now."
I think you should expand more on the Promethean Kings. TH-camr Homebrews are few and far between
My personal 2nd primarch is based on Irish folklore and is heavily inspired by Cu’Culain. Him and his sons had the 40k equivalent of warp spasms which functioned like a combination of the flesh change and the black rage turning them into frothing berserkers and making them way bigger and stronger while making them heavily resistant to the warp. Their primarch ended up succumbing to this and it took three legions and their primarchs to stop him and his legion.
My headcanon is that the second primarch had heavy character flaws (Too arrogant? Bad at tactics? Too impulsive?) so he commanded his legion to its doom. Maybe he and his legion were destroyed in one great battle against a lost human empire. The primarch underestimated the enemy and fell into an ambush, which caused heavy losses for his legion. The foolish primarch died during the battle. So the II legion straight up failed during the Great Crusade. Most of them died and the remaining ones joined other legions. I like to think that the Alpha Legion was involved somehow in containing the mess and censoring things. Because the Emperor cannot have word spread that one of his legions were wiped out, to maintain his propaganda.
The eleventh primarch and his legion ended up getting mind controlled by the rangdan. So the legion was purged by the dark angels. This also was not good for imperial propaganda so this incident was deleted from the record. The non brainwashed XI legion marines who fought their brainwashed brothers were honored by getting mind wiped and sent to other legions.
Also the rainbow warriors and the valedictors will always be the lost legions in my heart.
To be honest I'd be cool with the idea of getting some lore (particularly about the Ragdan Xenocides) and maybe one of them returning. Might be fun to have a primarch that was something like Loki: a trickster with a sense of humor, maybe physically smaller than even Alpharius & Omegon. Just something different.
If we ever see one or both of the lost primarchs, I hope its something super unique and metal as hell like samurai, aztec, apache or something along those lines. something hardcore as hell that is fun to paint and has unique weapons