What do YOU think the best and worst Kislev units are? Are their any placements you would change? All comments will be compiled when the time comes to update this Tier List! Thanks for everyone's contribution!
Kislev is atm just a better version of the Empire. Only artillerie and magic variety (healing!) makes the empire stand their ground against Kislev. Otherwise Kislev has better Infantry, better hybrids, better ranged, cavalry at least as good as empires and don't forget their faction ability that almost makes your entire army unbreakable!
One *very* useful spell in the Tempest line is the one that boosts ranged accuracy and range. This comes in *very* handy during sieges; since it lets kossars and ice guard outrange the defenses. Cast it on a blob of archers and let the arrowstorm begin!
Wildly underrated channel, love your videos! So much effort put into these! When I watched the HE one I started using silverin guard and it made my armies so much better!
Once played a Kostaltyn IE campaign where he had a Shielded armoured Kosars frontline supported by strelstkis, little groms and gryphon legions. Two patriarchs and a frost maiden as heroes completes the army. Probably the most fun late game army I ever played. Instant global replenishment for your front line is incredibly cost effective.
Great information (as usual.) I've found that the Elemental Bear is my favorite unit for getting the enemy to blob up for a big cast of Heart of Winter. An Elemental Bear with a Patriarch to heal it can stand in the middle of an enemy blob for a long time, while the ice magic of Heart of Winter melts the enemy away. Some folks (like Legend) have really panned ice magic, but (as you pointed out) I think that both ice and tempest really complement the Kislev roster. Elemental Bear coupled with ice magic is a very potent combo. I really enjoy the Kislev faction. Can't wait to play Kislev in IE.
I hadn't considered the elemental bear + Heart of Winter combination. That's awesome! I try to have both schools of magic in all my main armies. Then again, I bring balanced armies. If you're doomstacking then Ice lacks utility, but you can get the same result with a cheap army and Ice magic to help it punch up!
Kislev really don't cause too much friction when it comes to discussing their tactics. Strange because they can certainly suffer if they're played incorrectly!
I diss agree with the snow lepord very mutch becuase you can make with them the best doomstuck against ogre and ogre is a big problem for kislev in the late game
Thanks for the comment. Discussions like this are great for refining the list. While I maintain, the Kislev mid-tier infantry can hold long enough and Bears+Ice magic can do the work, I've seen a few advocates for Snow Leopards. I'm open to future testing them more as their cost is quite good, but I can't help but feel this is XP more flexible units could accumulate that will last until the late game. Also, late game Ogres have Stonehorns which Bears will handle much better and Streltsi can deliver that AP. Both these units are still useful in the lategame. Let me know if there's anything I'm missing!
@@ElvenPlotArmour i know that you can have bear rider but aganst ogre snow lepords on top try the doomstuck 3 patrots with heal spell and 16 snow lepords with ice queen lord tempas lore magic you just do a bloob and that search for it
Bear cavalary and Little Grom, should in my opinion, be recruited from the same level building. Since they both are bear involved and perform diffrent roles. Like hybrid melee/hybrid range unit.
This would be classed as animal cruelty and YT would take it down ;) In all seriousness, despite the utility here, they're against a roster of very flexible units that can hang in the higher tiers. The Kossar+Bears matchup does very well vs Ogres and T3 Tzar Guard can bravely hold the line. That said, more testing can be done!
Man the gryphon legion still hurts. Hoping for an ap buff at some point because they look incredible but they just can't compete with the war bears. You can pair them with snow leopards to help them out but again why not just get the damn bears instead?
I agree, they need something like that and perhaps more speed with an even beefier charge bonus so they can be that decisive charger (like their real life inspirations)
I'd put the horse archer further up, high speed, longrange skirmish cav has always been strong, they of course dont perform as well as elyrrian reavers but their purpose is the same, and versus low armored demons they can rack up good damage, and due to their decent melee stats, even when out of ammo they sort of turn into dirvishes.
Their melee stats are actually quite good so you're right, they can still deliver once they're out of ammo. There was definitely consideration around this being B Rank - they absolutely can function well. The decision to keep them there was they just didn't hit as hard as other B Tier units, but more that they are hard to justify against longer lasting Tier 2 options and Tier 3 has so many powerful options around the corner. Will definitely look close when revising!
Cheers man. I've toyed around with it, but in practical campaigns I find setting this build up to be not as convenient and that it's a more matchup style unit rather than an allcomers list. I know some players can do amazing things with these and those guns can pump, but I'm all ears to learn more. I understand the alure of the cost reduction and the potency of the ammo, but requires a tonne of execution and still has some bad matchups and terrain limitations.
i think witches shouldn't have bears as mounts. this is too much. same with the sleds. the heavy sled is redundant for what the light one does. too much bears again. just give them horses
Strong bear presence is a thing, but that criticism exists far worse in other races. Elf factions don't make dragons appear very endangered as a standard mount option haha. Perhaps getting a bear charriot (no gunner) would have been a nice tweak for diversity? Regardless, I feel it'd be a serious nerf for Kislev as their abiity to "bully" the enemy forces into their midrange is staple and horses are more of a surgical tool - normally excellent mount for casters - but the bear factor really drives their playstyle. Personally, since bears are uniquely Kislev I'm down with them being heavily stamped with them.
I love this comment. Tbh too many tier lists use this logic 😂 I try to avoid the standard of "1 guy did 1 play through and this is the definitive picture"
Like I said on another of these totally disagree with your snow leppard. IF USED RIGHT AND THIS REQUIRES MICRO, this unit should be an A unit. If used wrong then yes they are very squishy and will not last long I would also move bear and grom to A
Nope From the beginning: Kossars need to be flipped. Melee defense is much more important in a raged based army, and are more effective against cavalry, which are in the early game the only units capable of even reaching you. The regular Dervishes are trash, they probably even loose 1vs1 against pure Archer Units only use is to chase already broken units, who don't fight back. And the Snow Leopard may not be good in regular balanced armies, but are an effective Doomstack, especially against Ogres.
Thanks for your feedback. I don't disagree with your rational for supporting Spear Kossars as the logic is fine, but in application it breaks the typical convention. Axe Kossars already have 26MD which can be bolstered by research - they're already good in melee. If you get flanked you're probably going to shoot the horses anyway and the +4MD on the spears costs money your really lack at the start. As you pointed out, most armies won't even get close so having just 4 armoured kossars in an army of Axe Kossars is actually cheaper than a force of spear kossars. The biggest problem they face is when enemies get close the spear kossar won't cut it while the armoured kossars are enough to decide battles. If the Kislev economy weren't so bad and armoured kossar such a cheap step up I'd pay more credence to the spear variant, but the axe variant is incredible for it's job and cost. Regular Dervishes aren't amazing but they can harass quite well and land a decent charge - but you're right they're a scout cavalry and should be treated as such. I find them incredibly useful in siege defenses too. Snow Leopards have been raised by a few people and as such I'll definitely do some further testing when this list is revised next. Cheers for your thoughts, and Nihilus is a badass!
@@ElvenPlotArmour thank you for your rational explainnation. To be fair I use the spear variant only for the backline flanks and the Armored Kossars, like you suggested in the frontline. 4 of each.
I actually disagree with putting dervishes into trash can. Yeah they are weak, but can absolutely beat archers if used correctly. If you are facing opponents with strong ranged capabilities fast units are essential to win with acceptable number of losses. AI basically always have their archers on skirmish mod and you can disrupt multiple units at once with charges, allowing your archers more time to shoot
@@darthnihilus6211 you should always cycle charge them this is true for basically every light cavalry in the game, even if them have not that high charge bonus. In case of archers you can just bounce from one unit to another dealing damage and disrupting from shooting
What do YOU think the best and worst Kislev units are? Are their any placements you would change? All comments will be compiled when the time comes to update this Tier List!
Thanks for everyone's contribution!
Kislev is atm just a better version of the Empire. Only artillerie and magic variety (healing!) makes the empire stand their ground against Kislev. Otherwise Kislev has better Infantry, better hybrids, better ranged, cavalry at least as good as empires and don't forget their faction ability that almost makes your entire army unbreakable!
One *very* useful spell in the Tempest line is the one that boosts ranged accuracy and range. This comes in *very* handy during sieges; since it lets kossars and ice guard outrange the defenses. Cast it on a blob of archers and let the arrowstorm begin!
Wildly underrated channel, love your videos! So much effort put into these! When I watched the HE one I started using silverin guard and it made my armies so much better!
So stoked to hear it helped out. Silverin Guard are among the most underrated units in the entire game. Appreciated mate!
Once played a Kostaltyn IE campaign where he had a Shielded armoured Kosars frontline supported by strelstkis, little groms and gryphon legions. Two patriarchs and a frost maiden as heroes completes the army.
Probably the most fun late game army I ever played. Instant global replenishment for your front line is incredibly cost effective.
Kislev replenishment is glorious!
Great information (as usual.)
I've found that the Elemental Bear is my favorite unit for getting the enemy to blob up for a big cast of Heart of Winter. An Elemental Bear with a Patriarch to heal it can stand in the middle of an enemy blob for a long time, while the ice magic of Heart of Winter melts the enemy away. Some folks (like Legend) have really panned ice magic, but (as you pointed out) I think that both ice and tempest really complement the Kislev roster. Elemental Bear coupled with ice magic is a very potent combo.
I really enjoy the Kislev faction. Can't wait to play Kislev in IE.
I hadn't considered the elemental bear + Heart of Winter combination. That's awesome!
I try to have both schools of magic in all my main armies. Then again, I bring balanced armies. If you're doomstacking then Ice lacks utility, but you can get the same result with a cheap army and Ice magic to help it punch up!
Finally a comprehensive total war Warhammer guides channel. Keep uo the good work, orkz next please.
Doing my best mate, cheers for watching! Orkz are high on da list.
Sub wif da bell icon so ye don't miss it!
God I wish your videos had way more views your quality is amazing you should be very proud
Grateful for your support. Cheers for watching!
I think you pretty much nailed it, no notes!
Every single one of your videos is the exact content a TTW3 player wants. +1 sub
Thanks for the support! Welcome aboard!
First of your videos I've seen. I'm impressed. Great job.
Cheers!
Very good Tier List. I agree for 100%
Kislev really don't cause too much friction when it comes to discussing their tactics. Strange because they can certainly suffer if they're played incorrectly!
I diss agree with the snow lepord very mutch becuase you can make with them the best doomstuck against ogre and ogre is a big problem for kislev in the late game
Thanks for the comment. Discussions like this are great for refining the list. While I maintain, the Kislev mid-tier infantry can hold long enough and Bears+Ice magic can do the work, I've seen a few advocates for Snow Leopards. I'm open to future testing them more as their cost is quite good, but I can't help but feel this is XP more flexible units could accumulate that will last until the late game. Also, late game Ogres have Stonehorns which Bears will handle much better and Streltsi can deliver that AP. Both these units are still useful in the lategame. Let me know if there's anything I'm missing!
@@ElvenPlotArmour i know that you can have bear rider but aganst ogre snow lepords on top try the doomstuck 3 patrots with heal spell and 16 snow lepords with ice queen lord tempas lore magic you just do a bloob and that search for it
Bear cavalary and Little Grom, should in my opinion, be recruited from the same level building. Since they both are bear involved and perform diffrent roles. Like hybrid melee/hybrid range unit.
At least it's not like the Empire where you need that building AND the Bear Building. I honestly wish they'd change this!
@@ElvenPlotArmour I agree, the Empire could get some slight help, against an array of new enemy forces. Balancing a thing, ain't easy.
Got ur self a sub sir.
Cheers for the comment and sub!
U can try, leopards doomstack vs Ogre :)
This would be classed as animal cruelty and YT would take it down ;) In all seriousness, despite the utility here, they're against a roster of very flexible units that can hang in the higher tiers. The Kossar+Bears matchup does very well vs Ogres and T3 Tzar Guard can bravely hold the line. That said, more testing can be done!
Big fan of the format.
I'm quite proud of it and take these lists pretty serious so appreciate the fanfare! Cheers for the support!
ice guards is perfect doom stuck
spot on mate
Thanks for watching!
Man the gryphon legion still hurts. Hoping for an ap buff at some point because they look incredible but they just can't compete with the war bears. You can pair them with snow leopards to help them out but again why not just get the damn bears instead?
I agree, they need something like that and perhaps more speed with an even beefier charge bonus so they can be that decisive charger (like their real life inspirations)
I'd put the horse archer further up, high speed, longrange skirmish cav has always been strong, they of course dont perform as well as elyrrian reavers but their purpose is the same, and versus low armored demons they can rack up good damage, and due to their decent melee stats, even when out of ammo they sort of turn into dirvishes.
Their melee stats are actually quite good so you're right, they can still deliver once they're out of ammo. There was definitely consideration around this being B Rank - they absolutely can function well. The decision to keep them there was they just didn't hit as hard as other B Tier units, but more that they are hard to justify against longer lasting Tier 2 options and Tier 3 has so many powerful options around the corner. Will definitely look close when revising!
gg
KIslev Light War Sled is S tier. Strong doomstack.
Cheers man. I've toyed around with it, but in practical campaigns I find setting this build up to be not as convenient and that it's a more matchup style unit rather than an allcomers list. I know some players can do amazing things with these and those guns can pump, but I'm all ears to learn more. I understand the alure of the cost reduction and the potency of the ammo, but requires a tonne of execution and still has some bad matchups and terrain limitations.
Hard to argue compared to my own games
i think witches shouldn't have bears as mounts. this is too much. same with the sleds. the heavy sled is redundant for what the light one does. too much bears again. just give them horses
Strong bear presence is a thing, but that criticism exists far worse in other races. Elf factions don't make dragons appear very endangered as a standard mount option haha. Perhaps getting a bear charriot (no gunner) would have been a nice tweak for diversity? Regardless, I feel it'd be a serious nerf for Kislev as their abiity to "bully" the enemy forces into their midrange is staple and horses are more of a surgical tool - normally excellent mount for casters - but the bear factor really drives their playstyle. Personally, since bears are uniquely Kislev I'm down with them being heavily stamped with them.
I dunno kislev needs all the help they can get in their roster
Kislev.
Time to revisit!
Hell yeah, brother.
Cheers for the support!
love your videos !
Thanks mate!
Actually the winged lancers and the gryphon legion are S tier becouse my heart says so.
I love this comment. Tbh too many tier lists use this logic 😂
I try to avoid the standard of "1 guy did 1 play through and this is the definitive picture"
thanks, good video
Glad you liked it!
How about a beastmen tier list
Are you getting early access mate?
Ready the dragons ;)
Where is the frost wyrm ?
i think winglancer is good, with skills they can reach 90+ speed. that's my 2cent
That's actually a really good point! You've inspired me to make a cavalry Boyar next Kisev stream. Tune in and remind me to name him after you!
Like I said on another of these totally disagree with your snow leppard. IF USED RIGHT AND THIS REQUIRES MICRO, this unit should be an A unit. If used wrong then yes they are very squishy and will not last long I would also move bear and grom to A
Nope
From the beginning:
Kossars need to be flipped. Melee defense is much more important in a raged based army, and are more effective against cavalry, which are in the early game the only units capable of even reaching you.
The regular Dervishes are trash, they probably even loose 1vs1 against pure Archer Units only use is to chase already broken units, who don't fight back.
And the Snow Leopard may not be good in regular balanced armies, but are an effective Doomstack, especially against Ogres.
Thanks for your feedback. I don't disagree with your rational for supporting Spear Kossars as the logic is fine, but in application it breaks the typical convention. Axe Kossars already have 26MD which can be bolstered by research - they're already good in melee. If you get flanked you're probably going to shoot the horses anyway and the +4MD on the spears costs money your really lack at the start. As you pointed out, most armies won't even get close so having just 4 armoured kossars in an army of Axe Kossars is actually cheaper than a force of spear kossars. The biggest problem they face is when enemies get close the spear kossar won't cut it while the armoured kossars are enough to decide battles. If the Kislev economy weren't so bad and armoured kossar such a cheap step up I'd pay more credence to the spear variant, but the axe variant is incredible for it's job and cost. Regular Dervishes aren't amazing but they can harass quite well and land a decent charge - but you're right they're a scout cavalry and should be treated as such. I find them incredibly useful in siege defenses too. Snow Leopards have been raised by a few people and as such I'll definitely do some further testing when this list is revised next. Cheers for your thoughts, and Nihilus is a badass!
@@ElvenPlotArmour thank you for your rational explainnation. To be fair I use the spear variant only for the backline flanks and the Armored Kossars, like you suggested in the frontline. 4 of each.
I actually disagree with putting dervishes into trash can. Yeah they are weak, but can absolutely beat archers if used correctly. If you are facing opponents with strong ranged capabilities fast units are essential to win with acceptable number of losses. AI basically always have their archers on skirmish mod and you can disrupt multiple units at once with charges, allowing your archers more time to shoot
@williammclyr3330 if, you tested it. OK. From my last time using them, they actually lost to archers.
@@darthnihilus6211 you should always cycle charge them this is true for basically every light cavalry in the game, even if them have not that high charge bonus. In case of archers you can just bounce from one unit to another dealing damage and disrupting from shooting
Awesome video.
Keep them coming
Cheers mate!