Was saving money a mistake? (Epoxy vs Vinylester) | Step 403
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ธ.ค. 2024
- Go to magicmind.com/...
SAILINGUMA20 gets you up to 48% off your first subscription for the next 10 days or 20% off for a one time purchase #magicmind #mentalperformance #productivityhacks
For Bonus videos, Ad Free episodes, access to The Unknown podcast, and daily updates on Discord:
▸ / sailinguma
↓ BINGE WATCH ↓
▸ Watch our story from Step 1 : • "Don't Buy a Couch" - ...
▸ OUR BOAT (1972 Pearson 36) www.sailinguma...
▸ MERCH : store.sailingu...
▸ WEBSITE: www.sailinguma.com
▸ FACEBOOK: / sailinguma
▸ INSTAGRAM: / sailinguma
↓ MUSIC ↓
▸ MUSICBED: share.mscbd.fm/...
▸ SPOTIFY: open.spotify.c...
↓ AFFILIATES ↓
▸ Insta360 cameras: www.insta360.c...
▸ EASY SEA winch Handles:
easysea.org?sca_ref=46948.6nWaqdX9NZ/
(For an extra 5% discount, use the code: UMA5 )
▸ BATTLE BORN BATTERIES:
battlebornbatte...?afmc=su_01/
▸ TEAM-O life jackets:
sailinguma.com...
(Get 15% off with Promo code: SailingUma )
Go to magicmind.com/SAILINGUMA20 SAILINGUMA20 gets you up to 48% off your first subscription for the
next 10 days or 20% off for a one time purchase #magicmind #mentalperformance #productivityhacks
Very smart to do the promotion on a video that will generate a lot of comments and engagement!
I had a go. Adds the uma discount, the changes to 15% at check out. Anyone else getting this or am I doing something wrong😢
Do you think your sources matter as well ?
Hiya, many TH-camrs like Matt Armstrong are sponsored by some brands paying yearly fee and free product. Think he got Yfood & valvoline that pay strong money. Down to how many subscribers etc obviously. 👍
In aviation, circa '99, when our repairs were tested, the inspector would look for approximately 80% or greater transfer of wood. All of your test pieces would not only have passed, you would have gotten an A+ for your analysis/explanation. Excellent work you two, I can't always keep up but when I get the chance I like to binge watch. I can't wait to see what you do after this project because we all know your restless minds need the stimulation. Stay safe, be well!
Now that your test is finished..... I am an architect and after the crash in 2008, I was fortunate enough to find a job as a forensic architect. I needed to measure the force for a pull test on an exterior floor coating. I used a fish scale. In any case I believe you conclusions are sound enough for you purposes for a couple of reasons. 1. You have greatly reinforced the hull with the ribs and 2. You are connecting the bulkheads to the hull/ribs which they were not before. Actually, in the first test you really only tested the strength of the plywood glue but the two coating did not fail first. The in hull tests were interesting eng helpful for you. None of the tests tested shear which will happen at the ribs to hull joint as the hull flexes. In any case, I think, for you boat and the stresses it will experience it will work fine. Good lunch. I really enjoy watching eng respect you both. George
Of course, they are both architects as well .......
You are an architect not a constuctor.you have no say about construction....
I am very curious about sheer testing too.
@@HRDBMW Not too worried about shear load. The peeling effect and delamination is much more of a worry. The bond will likely fail first from that phenomenon. Then a shear test is academic really.
I have read that vinylester does not absorb water…..
When laminating onto ply for structural bonds, it helps to drill 3-4 mm sheer-tie holes. Before laminating, fill all the holes with thickened resin (epoxy or vinylester)
As someone with zero experience in boat building this is fascinating. Thank you for sharing guys. It seems that there may be a whole bunch of marketing going on and a lot of money perhaps, perhaps being wasted, in smaller boats but I really liked the argument that that other builder had, that epoxy might indeed be stronger, but only with much larger vessels and loads? Don't know obviously, just fascinating to see the many different comments and opinions. Thank you to all.
In South Africa laminating epoxy is around €16 per kg & Vinyl Ester just under €1 per kg. I use ISO Polyester resin laminating 410g biaxle cloth with Kardyn Green recycled core. I do use epoxy to make a bog with milled cotton flock & fumed silica to bond the deck sandwich panels to the wooden deck beams because polyester (and vinyl ester) tends to shrink & pull away from the wood over time. The epoxy seems to be more flexible. Using a specially formulated bonding paste that is polyester resin based is a cheaper alternative and works better since epoxy isn’t UV stable and turns yellow. Btw I’m a follower since step 1…. I especially enjoy the boat work.
Vinyl ester resin is basically a hybrid of polyester and epoxy resin. Its design to give the fast curing and working time of polyester with superior bonding and water proofing properties of epoxy. Thats why you got very similar results between the ve and epoxy. You're made a good choice, carry on. 👍
We love Magic Mind, being retired and on the go with our grandchildren we feel quite strongly, that it helps us concentrate during our stressful day.
When I bought my first sailboat I met a glass guy from Canada that used vinylester almost all the time. He extended his boat by a few feet for a sugarscoop. That stuff was fantastic!
where abouts in canada? im in a boatyard now and there is a boat with a sugar scoop that was added on to it next to me in the yard! ha in sure its not the only one but it is a small world do you remember the boats name?
@storyofstargazer218 yeah, I believe it was "Lady Fate." He's from Nova Scotia, cool guy!
I'm starting a full interior refit in 2 months and I'm SOOO GLAD I found this! Thank you for giving me the confidence to spend 1/3 of the money!! 😁
Its not about adhesion only. The main reason to choose epoxy vs vinyl resin - it gives you more rigidity for same amount of materials. That means it is only choice when "weight" is crucial. So if you going to build racing-boat - it is crucial if it weight 1000Kg for epoxy or 1100Kg for vinyl
When I was making kayaks epoxy all the way. I have to maintain strength after it is flexed / stressed. Also the margins for weight are smaller than a sailboat.
Just to keep in mind a boat need to flex …. For weight it’s not whit the resin but more the cloth or the fibre you used ( carbon fibre , Kevlar , hybrid fibre ) good pro tip always used material that the boat vinyl ester is your best choice to save some money and get the job done ! Gelcoat doesn’t bond to epoxy with out applying an other product over it ( primer) so more spending !
In the early 1990s I converted a 48' power boat for commercial fishing and what I did to my bulkheads was where the tanning to the hull I drilled 1/2" holes about 3" apart and 3" from the hull then filled the holes with vinylester resin mixed with millfiber. Also pre saturate the plywood bulkhead with two coats of thinned vinylester resin before tabbing with two layers of 1708 glass. The 1/2" resin mixed milled fiber plugs gave extra reenforced bonding to the plywood on both sides. Hope this helps
I loved the analogy of the two cranes to lift the boat, perfect. Both resins would work in the situation so why spend more on the more expensive resin. I also understand why you chose to go with epoxy to layup the plywood the "better" penetration into the plywood is a factor apart from the resin strength. I also agree with the comment below on coating all surfaces of the deck sole mounting blocks with epoxy to prevent rot.
Loving this in depth rebuild.
Great video. I agree that cohesive failure is what’s needed and not adhesive failure.
This is very educational and gives rise to new developments in the industry. You were also one of the first adventurers who went with an electric motor and electric boat!
Vinylester resin is what ALL boats were made from in the 70s so it's not new.
Not to knock ya down or anything, but this info and other real world testing has been done buy hundreds, if not thousands of people since the 60's when these various resins became somewhat affordable. Most bonding failures are all associated to surface prep, mix ratio, temp/humidity, and sometimes shelf life
We and most other yards didn't use epoxy unless requested, before TH-cam.
It is expensive and not much profit margin.
Vinyl and poly has been the go to since the 60's with great success(when done properly)
If you actually look, most pushing epoxy never held a tube of it and are regurgitating info passed on by other gawkers
See the look on the kids face when when he did the tests , hehehe ,
I would have been surprised and questioned the prep if it were different
Great work guys... This goes to confirm our own experience. We have a Polyester 1982 boat (Madison) which we refitted from an empty hull in 2007 using only polyester resin to fit all the new bulkheads and cabin sole and despite being out in all kinds of weather non of the bulkheads have every moved and they don't make a noise when in heavy weather or even when getting lifted with hoists or when being dropped onto cradles. If I do any more work I'll consider going for Vinylester as I hadn't know about this option in 2007. Every day is a school day!.... Thanks for a super informative post and I can't wait to see what Uma ends up like. We're considering some layout changes to what we had chosen previously and your design choices are helping to inform the directions we might take.
I used to learn in training that epoxy is much better, and less toxic... switching companies I there was the exact opposite opinion...
styrol will dull your mind, but supposedly exits your body within 24h (studies done in the 80th🤷)
epoxy contains bisphenol A which may cause cancer and is odorless as well as some stuff in the hardener making people allergic.
in terms of performance and usability I got to know good results with both although resin infusion is much easier with slow and low viscosity epoxys
polyester is much easier to get a fast cure to build upon and hammer out some repairs fast
I had a read through the ingredients for Magic Mind. There is caffeine in that product. It also has matcha which is a green tea...which your body will convert to caffeine (I believe) but the release is slower. Either way, it will prevent the caffeine crash. If you love it, keep using it. The other ingredients are good for immunity and stress. Now for the Epoxy vs Vinylester debate, I have nothing to add. Never used either and we aren't boaters. :)
😂
I watched a 3rd generation boat builder, and his answer is they have different properties, and you should use the one that makes your life easier for that project.
The best thing about vinyl ester is that it is chemical resistant. It’s used to make chemical tanks etc, so by using it in places like your bilges your safe in the knowledge that any sort of contamination that god forbid happens it won’t effect the integrity of the structure.
As you said, one of the big factors is what are you glassing. For structural bonds and hull repairs epoxy is normally thought to be better, particularly if you are making secondary bonds. For interior furniture you can easily get away with polyester, a quality waterproof aliphatic wood glue like Titebond III or even just screws. Frankly for interior furniture I would go with either just screws or aliphatic wood glue. Why? Largely for three reasons. 1 - ease of use. 2 - cost and 3 - safety (minimal hazardous vapor emissions). The only down side of using a quality waterproof wood glue is that if you let any of the glue cure on the surface to be finished it will be very hard to get the finish to bond properly. That is a bigger issue for varnish than for paint.
Boat builders I have known generally only use vinylester resins for the outside layer of a hull layup because vinylester resins are not as susceptible to water intrusion as polyester resins. Once that first layer of glass is down, they switch to polyester resin for a couple of reasons. First is cost and second is that some workers can become sensitized to vinylester resins. Yes that can happen with polyester resins, but it seems to be less of an issue with polyester than with vinylester. Polyester resin is fine for things like tabbing, particularly in new builds where the hull has not been allowed to fully cure. Even in repair work, polyester resin is OK for secondary bonds like tabbing bulkheads in if you do two things. 1) make sure the fiberglass surface to be bonded to is completely clean and has been thoroughly ground to give adequate tooth for the secondary bond. 2) Make the tab on the hull a bit wider than you would with an epoxy tab. Increased surface area will make up for the weaker bonds.
The only builders I have had experience with that used epoxy for hull lamination were very high end builders using resin infusion methods. That process requires the longer working time afforded by epoxy. Virtually no one uses epoxy for open layup for a couple of reasons. The primary reason is cost. A secondary reason, which also involves cost, is that polyester resins cure faster allowing multiple layers to be routinely put down during a day. Also if they are using a laminating resin (i.e., air inhibited) the surface remains a green surface for many days. Consequently an entire hull can be laid up with no sanding/grinding between layers and that includes tabbing in bulkheads, stringers and floors. In contrast epoxy has a much longer cure time that pretty much limits the work flow to one or at the outside two layers of glass per day. Also if a build extends a weekend or even a warm night, it will be necessary to sand the epoxy surface between layers of glass. Depending on the epoxy it may be necessary to remove amine blush or use peel ply (added time and expense).
Basically, unless weight minimization is a big consideration, polyester resin (maybe with an outer vinylester skin) is good enough.
I am calling BS it is purely about cost so production boat builders will use polyester if their market won't negatively consider their product or Vinylester if their customer base is better informed! Epoxy is for those who want the best & are willing to pay for premium products. Your PVA wood glue is not for marine and tropical conditions, nails & screws need to be non ferrous.
@@jackdbur Name a builder that does the entire layup with vinylester. I am not aware of one. I worked with some relatively high end builders (Hinckley and Morris) which is where my info came from. In my experience most cabinet work is done with stainless screws. The only resins/glues used in cabinet construction are for tabbing to the hull. Titebond III is fully waterproof and has been used in many marine applications. Resorcinol is better, but almost no one uses it anymore.
Your crane analogy answers it perfectly!
Yeah but the big expensive crane also works better when it’s raining.
I love your tests! I find them super educational. Loving the work youre doing to Uma. Great job!
Amazing how tidy you guys manage to keep everything and that yard is immaculate. Awesome chaos - free zone!
Good skills.
I think people forget what the purpose of epoxy and vinylester is in a composite layup and that is to be a binder. Binding the fibers to both itself and the surface it is applied too, but not the sole strength. If the bond to the surface is mechanical then the fibers or surface becomes the breaking point and not the binder. If the binder was as important as people act like it is, then why do you try and have as little as possible in a race application? That being said, there is specifics about epoxy and vinylester that one better than another. the effect of temperature, both in the layup and in the cure performance is different for instance. Thanks for going through the effort of the tests and showing the results!
When saturating plywood it's worth noting that it will only penetrate as far as the first glue line, so bear that in mind when a strong joint is needed.
@@sheerluckholmes5468 The Unmentionable problem with Plywood is spelled - Termites - Plywood needs to be sealed against Termites inviting themselves for lunch, and it isn’t just the Caribbean that gets Termite Swarms arriving. 🤔
Stronger than the attach point is a valid test. In testing welds on 30: 3/8 wall pipeline material we expect the pipe to fail before the weld. AS you pointed out, the penetration into the attachment surface ply is the limiting factor.
It's always good in a build to save money where possible and where it doesn't affect the strength. You will be sure to spend the savings somewhere else.
A hint on removing the keel bolts....or ANY bolts and nuts and screws for that matter. TIGHTEN them first! Not a bunch, you just want to get it to move. That breaks is free from corrosion. If you straight away try and unfasten you run the risk of stripping the shoulders off the nut or bolt head. THEN what do you do? Grinder time. But it you strip the shoulder when trying to tighten then you still have the working shoulders for unfastening and time to sit and think about how to go about the task from there.
“... but, this is our boat and these tests are to make us feel warm and fuzzy inside about the work we are doing so we can sleep better at night when we’re sailing offshore.”
I’m really grateful for the deep dive and learning lots together. Keep going. Cheers from Nanaimo :-)
It boils down to OVERKILL ............ How much do you need in this project. What is strong enough ??????
Your analogy was great for 'splaining things. Have fun................ enjoy
Having been involved with building, repairing and operating many fibreglass vessels since the 60's my view is that you are on the right track. Vinylester will do a completely fine job and will be stronger than the original polyester and CSM? substrate. Getting it to stick to plywood is always going to be a problem, we have tried scoring the surface of the ply, abrading it with 40 grit sandpaper even using a cobalt solution but as you found the resin does not really penetrate deeply and the veneer is relatively weak, having said that I have never had the tabbing on a ply bulkhead fail.
Nice to see your thinking and test batches. No matter what nobody can accuse you of not doing the research. Greg 🇬🇧
This message was sent to me yesterday from the owner / builder of one America's most respected boat companies, a company that has built very strong boats for decades... He says "For that re-tabbing, use either vinylester or epoxy. Polyester resins don’t have enough secondary bond strength."
Yup
I did similar test a couple years ago with iso polyester vs epoxy for timber laminating. I discover a well prepped polyester bond also delaminated the plywood. For the polyester i prepped the ply with sandpaper and primer/Hot Brew which is made by 33%polyeseter, 63% styrene solvent, 3% Cobalt accelerator). @21:34 Im a boat builder, Regarding knowledge, you will be surprised. most of us just take the assumption that epoxy is far superior with out a test like this. Ive been boat building for 20years and only recently did this test and shocked by the results of how good even polyester can bond to timber.
It seems Both work equally well, The consensus difference is Epoxy has less odor and Vinyl ester is more economical....
Once, when researching problems with osmosis, I read an article that said you should always have the least porous materials on the outside with progressively more porous material as you move inward to avoid trapping moisture as it moves through the hull. Trapping moisture in the fiberglass layup leads to delamination.
Epoxy is the least porous, so should be used on the outside with more porous materials such as poly ester and vinyl ester used on the inside of the hull.
in a perfect laminate there are no wood components... foam is the current king, because where there is trapped moisture there is rot. Think Bayliner, I apologize
@@canvashomesusa8729 I'm not certain how coring material relates to what I said above. Can you elaborate?
@@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus g-10 pre+laminated sheets....
@@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus plywood has been forbidden a long time... They are building 'furniture' not a hull.... Bulkheads ??? Plywood is fine... For a while.
@@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus all the various cored laminates, aluminum, divinicell, foam, printed
Pogo Structures uses Vinylester for osmosis protection on the first outer layer of the hull. (At least for the Pogo 36). They also have an option in the price list for a full Vinylester hull. They charge >€3000 extra for this.
Either way, compared to most boats, that thing is going to be a tank! Nice work guys! 😊
Fabulously useful video Uma. Plus all the comments too. You are a Lightning rod for lots of genuine expertise here....
in 1978 i laid up a body shell for my Ground effects Dinnington GT racing car championship winning design . Lotus Esprit look alike . I sold the 90% complete car due to financial issues . The new owner hadn,t a clue and proceeded to chop huge sections of the structural bulkheads and bodywork .. . A fellow competitor lost control in front of him in the severely butchered monocoque design . the other car was split in half and the /My esprit look alike suffered quite light damage to the right front corner of the bodywork / monocaque . None of the polyester joints or panels disintigrated .
Good episode, glad to hear Andy is still around.
Very informative. I never thought your choice of resin was wrong. Especially for the size of your project. Andy at boat works today is a A+++. The only time I would favor epoxy would be for repairing hull below the water line. For some reason the barrier coat seems to be epoxy based. 10k can buy a lot of samiches.
Iff you want a true deep dive regarding Vinylester vs epoxy then Andy at boatworks today is probably your best recourse. Andy is the TH-cam God of fibreglass just as Mads is the TH-cam God of sawdust. 😂😂😂
Obviously Den doesn't have the time or resources to do the huge amount of testing that Andy was able to do so I am definitely not criticising. Basically my take out from Andy's videos is both can be equally appropriate with Vinylester being cheaper but with some limitations such as epoxy will bond well over Vinylester but the reverse may not be true. Also its essential to make sure when using Vinylester it is allowed too fully cure before proceeding to a further stage, unlike epoxy which will eventually fully cure no matter what you do. Den is not doing a repair he is building brand new bulkheads from scratch so it really boils down to Vinylester being cheaper, requiring more care in mixing and curing, and a job taking longer compared to epoxy being significantly more expensive, a lot more forgiving, and probably more time saving. At the end of the day if done right both will give equally good results.
To face off epoxy against vinylester or polyester resins in a FAIR fight simply remove all the ply or fabrics and create several castings of the same dimensions and MEASURE in tension, shear, torsion, hardness etc etc. I understand the need to "feel" the structural worth of what you are doing but having the plywood fail should satisfy this need. It just does not constitute an actual "test". Love watching your videos and hearing your thought and opinions on these things. Thanks for sharing.
Go with your gut brah. You guys have been winging it, in a positive way, since forever..... You folks got this. Now hurry up and get back to sailing.
Vinylester resins combine the best properties of polyester and epoxy resins. They are much more mechanically resilient than polyester resins, but they are also more resistant and tougher than epoxy resins. Vinyl ester resins are a hybrid form of polyester resin that has been reinforced with epoxy.
They are more stretch-tolerant and can absorb shocks better, and they are also less prone to stress cracking than polyester resins. Vinyl ester resins are used as an alternative to epoxy resins due to their good mechanical properties and in particular their high osmosis resistance (around 300 times better than polyester resin). Saare Yachts have been building boats with Vinylester for years :)
We like your tests. During haulout, we found several areas where osmosis had occurred. We researched and found that Vynilester was the best option due to its non-osmosis property. We also consulted with a naval architect and industry sources.
There is always a weakpoint if it is not one homogenous moulding. I get "non-brand" epoxy for the same price as vinylester , which is the only reason i use epoxy when bought in bulk. I also use D3 rated wood glue, which is also stronger than the wood it bonds. No point wasting voyaging tokens.
Timber Max and Timber Max Express is a great polyurethane based wood glue, much better than most other glues that I tested against, including gorilla glue which is polyurethane based funny enough.
Timber Max cures slower than the Express.
I tested on a really good sapele and other woods, the grain always gave in first and that was under long soak tests as well as dry, it's great for marine use and has D4 water protection.
Epoxy for gluing wood together, I found, was rather poor in comparison to most other decent wood glues.
Tests are a great way to find these things out, I've glued many a thing with Timber Max that are outside in all weather 24/7 south facing for as long as 15 years...still 100% while exposed to full sun during summer and heavy rain and cold in winter.
Yeah. I'm always surprised at the insane prices they sell epoxy for, because the first time I bought some I got two 60 liter jugs of two part epoxy from an older professional boat builder and it didn't cost that much. Seeing later that they sold little one liter cans in the store for the price it's going for just blew my mind. Guy must have given it to me for like a tenth of the price, and I'm sure he still made a profit. So if you just know where to get it and buy in bulk like he was doing you can get it pretty cheap.
Good testing. Ultimately will have me a boat that likely will have to rebuild/fix. So good info for the public to have
Very Interesting! And thrilling to have my comment screenshotted. Thank you for that, I’ll try not to let this new found fame change me.
I was surprised to see how well the vinyl-ester stuck to the epoxy.
As a professional carpenter I have no doubts about the wood to wood superiority of epoxy and it would take some hard science to sway me there.
I think if I was going to do any big lay-ups or building of new parts that won’t be constantly wet the $ savings on other resins would be well worth it.
However to me epoxy will continue to justify its expense in critical repair work for one main reason not covered in the video:
Epoxy is much more resistant to moisture ingress over time. The other resins need gel coat and or an epoxy barrier coat to be truly water proof. Moisture ingress over time will lead to blistering and de-lamination, so absolutely worth the expense on your bilge stringers!
Anyway, I respect your process and that boat is going to be absolutely bomber. Can’t wait to see it all come together.
This is really about chemistry, not rumours. You should talk to a company that makes both polyester and vinylester resins if you _really_ want to get the skinny. But if you do want to talk to another boat builder about it, reach out to Life On The Hulls. He's spent decades building custom kayaks and has been spending the last few years building a 40' catamaran from the mould up. He can discuss the chemistry involved and clearly explain why you use certain products in certain spots. Generally speaking, though, the simple formula is: If you're working with disparate surfaces, e.g., tabbing fibreglass to wood, it doesn't matter. If you're working on fiberglass-to-fiberglass, NEVER mix your chemistries. V-to-V or E-to-E. By mixing chemistries, you're essentially limiting your glass work to a mechanical bond and not achieving the highest possible _chemical_ bond. You want a strong boat, so aim to achieve both ideal mechanical and chemical bonds in your glass.
You only get a chemical bond of you laminate over we resin. Anything that’s had more than a day to cure is getting sanded and it’s a mechanical bond anyway.
@@SailingUma Agreed. The other way to achieve a strong bond is to partially wet out lasy layer being used as a transition so the different resins intermix the fibers between them.
A couple of comments ;) Test three at about 21 minutes is interesting because your clamp kept the joint from failing at the wood. Normally a bulkhead would extend beyond the FG.... however because your clamp kept the wood to FG joint from completely failing, the wood acted as a lever to pull the FG joint itself apart. Good test.
Second, I think a lot of inet "wisdom" is based on polyester (the one you did not mention). I have read (so this may not even be true) two things about polyester that vinylester seems to have solved. A) polyester on top of epoxy of some types will chemically degrade the epoxy, that is start to melt it and can weaken it. As this is old information, the formulation of either/and both products may have changed since. Basically one could repair polyester with either polyester or epoxy, but epoxy only with epoxy. B) polyester was well known for separating from plywood transoms in production boats and home made trimarans. A lot of this appears to be improper application. I have read that putting a coat of polyester resin without catalyst on the wood first would fix this. In other words, these were dry joints. These days people coat the wood first even with epoxy.
Third comment, other builders have used other products for wood to wood joints inside the cabin. Tapatya used a tube of something, (maybe Wave Rover too) that I don't remember and others have used Titebond II or III (Titebond III being water proof even when boiled) Did you consider any of these other products? To be honest, I am not sure I would trust Titebond in my bilge.... but then I don't trust wood in my bilge either unless encapsulated and even then.
Fourth comment just got to about 25 and you are saying you would prefer epoxy for a bottom repair like patching a removed through hull. According to the manufacture: "Vinyl ester resins actually exceed both polyester and epoxy in corrosion resistance, temperature resistance, and elongation (toughness)." This is a company that makes and sells all three products. Vinyl ester may well be a better bottom patch material. I may use it to recover my dinghy bottom which sits in the sun when on deck after the paint gets scraped off by the "beaches" around here. I am using the dinghy this summer not quite finished, so this winter will add the skeg, maybe another seat, oar stowage clamps.... and maybe sailing HW.
Last comment: My main reason for using epoxy has more to do with working time. I'm slow. ;)
Glad you brought this topic,
my pet peeve is that when you buy epoxy these days, you will have a hard time finding the physical specs and these vary hugely ( like 10X) So any comparison is pretty much useless unless you have that data. Like every thing out there, the drive is to lower cost and the science gets put aside.
Also if you are just gluing laminates, use similar glues. epoxy is good for fiberglass, carbon fiber, kevlar in just right amount to enhance the properties of the combined materials.
My Fountaine Pajot 43 catamaran was built of vinylester and was strong enough. And vinylester do not absorb water as do polyester. I would go for vinylester on any boat unless it will be subject to hard racing in tough conditions.
Good luck with your progress on the refit.
Tip when using vinyl ester for tabbing to bulkheads is to do an initial coating of 50 / 50 vinyl ester and styrene monomer, this wild give better penetration of the resin into timber.
Your results are what I would have expected from my testing. The choice in my opinion comes down more to how you want to work the material. Vinylester and polyester have the advantage of setting up fast and allowing you to work in a continuous manner building up reinforcement layers as you go along. They also dissolve the binder in 1708 and chopped strand matting and they will chemically bond to a gel coating thats applied over them. Epoxy cures slowly and its kinda best painted afterward.
Your philosophy of building coincides with mine. Too strong = just right. I eagerly await the time when I can again wish you fair winds and following seas. Until then I'll sip my coffee and watch you work.
I've heard peole get militant about which is better. Usually the most agressive being the polyester/ vinyle ester camp. Maybe be due to the fumes amd associated brain damage of longterm poly/vinyle users. I picked the brain of the Old Guy at the Fiberglass supply place near Riverside in Ft. Pierce. Most of what I needed to do was fill small surface blisters. I landed on epoxy mixed the way he instructed. I also built a new rudder with epoxy, marine ply and glass. It has held up very well. But I agree $10k is 10k. And nuanced understanding of optimal use is likely best. Thanks for doing this comparison. 🙌
6:48 An excellent penetrant can be made by mixing 50/50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. It’s a bit messy, and cannot easy be sprayed, but it’s cheap and works VERY well
As a former mechanic, this (we called it weasel piss) beats any commercial product out there, next best was Lloyd's Move It . I use to have a spray can with removable top that I would half fill with weasel piss and pressurize with compressed air. It would sprayed any where. The cans are widely available, just search Refillable Compressed Air Spray Can
Oh... Penetrating oil. Fascinating
This acetone/atf fluid was tested by Popular Mechanics several years ago and I have used it ever since with great success. Put it in a pump spray bottle, it’s much more effective and less expensive than aerosol penetrants.
My grandfather did acetone, linseed oil, and paint pigment. He painted the barn in 1947, and there are areas that haven't been repainted.
so many variables - vinyl ester is more chemical resistant and theoretically, epoxy is stronger. What matters in the design is the surface area and cross section of the structural profile.
Vinyl ester is more than enough for your hull strength. Epoxy is also more water proof than vinyl ester. Each product has its application. I would hesitate to say one is better than the other. it's like comparing wood to steel to aluminum to stainless. Each has its pro and con. great vid showing the practicality in the application.
Hey, Dan, as you rightly pointed out - it depends :) For what you are using this stuff there is no real reason to spend money on epoxy. For what I am using it on - building a boat from scratch designed as a wood-epoxy laminate I have no real choice :)
As perceptions - they are rooted in history. For a long time there was no other option but to use epoxy in such conditions. Vinyl ester resin is, technically speaking, also a kind of epoxy resin, but modified with styrene. It was actually developed to allow use of cheaper resin of similar characteristic to epoxy. So your tests are not a great surprise - but still fun to watch :)
Super inventive and unexpected way to segway(segue) to an ad for #magicmind gotta give props
Hi guys, I believe that you are the one that got a live with Uma on the water. I think they both are just as strong as each other and it seems like a lot of extra money for epoxy, but like I said it’s up to you guys anyway keep up the good work always appreciate you both , Cliff from Logan City Queensland Australia 🇦🇺
talk about closing the stable door . after the horse has bolted .. Better late than never ... Impressive down to earth test methods ... your rebuild / redesign is coming along nicely . stay energised ..
Good job. You have your answer and cost/ times/ benefit/ ease/ long term reliability / sleep easy @night facts…FWIW I have used ‘esters mostly always on my own boat renovations and rely on mechanical grinding ( prep) and extra surface contact area to work with the mechanical properties of the resin. Epoxies are great for hull fairing tho! 😊Albeit at higher outlay but less time… .. I have 3 yrs college in this and all the actual boat stuff ( blah blah blah) but you’re there too guys 👍👍
I enjoyed watching your test, I have always used epoxy so learned a lot.
When are the weak links of vinyl Esther is usually the hardener be careful you always use fresh hardener I try not to buy too much enough for one season never let it get cold another thing I like to do with vinyl ester make kind of a party without hardener kitty litter in cabazon and leave it premixed so you can use it all the time I like using a half a gallon mixed up at a time just remember you still need to put Ardmore in before you use it
Totally cool video.. our boat like most OLD boats was built of polyester resin.. so my argument has always been what advantage is using epoxy for repair work? Now in the modification of a rudder to fit our boat.. the shaft had to come out to be machined.. The rudder was made from polyester and incredibly well engineered and built.. but we used epoxy and glass to set the rudder post back into the rudder after the machine work was completed.. The REASON was that it cured more slowly and we vacuum bagged the glass work in to eliminate any voids... Could we have vacuum bagged polyester? Maybe but the fast cure time would definitely have been an issue and in this case leaving it 24 hours under vacuum ... worked.. and after two seasons of use of that rudder it worked really REALLY well.. I am NOT saying its stronger but I am saying in this case the clamp pressure of vacuum bagging was better served by the slow cure of the epoxy resin and the bond we have .. exceeds the load the rudder can apply..
Nice video. Yup the weak like is the substrate, it's what I would have expected. No one in the comments have talked about the type of joint or failure. All of your tests were peel tests, the weakest type of bond. Either resin system is going to be adequate with the plywood as you found out. Try some shear tests. In shear the strength is related to the bond area, in peal the strength is more related to the reinforcement laminates and joint cured flexibility. Depending on the hardener the epoxy will give you longer working time for positioning but bad if you want to move quickly and not have wait many hours for curing. Epoxy has almost no odor, but you can get sensitized to the stuff. Urethanes are good for wood joints but not glass reinforced joints. In any case design your joints so they are in shear not peal (bending) even the plywood will work better.
Vinyl ester is used to build airplanes like Glasair (very fast airplane) and is fuel safe. The strength of the fiberglass system is in the glass not the resin; the resin just holds the glass in the proper orientation and supports the glass in compression. Adhesion to a surface may be difference; but wood is very porous so no issue with adhesion. I would use ester.
I'm a tradey (plumber) guys - this seemed an entirely reasonable train of logic to me. Epoxy is the superior product, by maybe 10 percent or so. Ok, so for critical applications? Sure, suck it up, go with it. Other bulk non-critical stuff? the other gear all the way. Great video, God bless 🤗🤗
We have had similar arguments with people whilst we are rebuilding our Trimaran. As it was built out of Polyester, but everyone cries about using epoxy for everything etc and how we are doing it wrong by using polyester. Sure we use epoxy for specific things, but for general repair work, polyester is brilliant and extremely cost effective.
You also get less air bubbles in the fiber glass with polyester and with less than half the work, also polyster is stronger/stiffer as a laminate the with epoxy. Like 5 layers of chop strand fiber glass 1 meter long and 5 cm width bends less with a weight on the middle.
Vinyl ester and poly ester are near identical in material properties, where poly ester is slightly cheaper, slightly worse, but superior in terms of application.
Awesome video Uma! Defiantly gave me a few ideas about our projects. Thanks!
Well, I’ve been using vinylester on old polyester structures. Most old fiberglass boat hulls are just plain junky polyester resin. Some higher quality boats from the eighties onward when osmotic damage started to become thing, were given an outer barrier skin of vinylester. I suppose there are a few boats ought here that were solid vinylester. Lucky you if you have one.
I can tell you that for repairs on old production boats, vinylester and NOT polyester crappy so called “boatyard resin”, is the way to go. Vinylester has better wet out and a slower more predictable kick off. It’s also stronger and has better adhesion.
I did a lot of blister repairs using vinylester. As good as epoxy I feel, for that task, but still should use an epoxy barrier coat over it.
For wood, I remain convinced that epoxy is better. It penetrates into the grain. You can get away with using vinylester or probably even boatyard resin for bonding bulkheads since the bonding area is pretty large. (Four inch tabbing hull and bulkhead)
If money was less of a concern or the boat was smaller id use epoxy. I prefer West. Go ahead and hate on me. Ive used west to tab in bulkheads on various smaller boats. For gluing wooden things together, if they are important things, it’s epoxy period. Especially if it’s going to get wet.
Best of luck on your project!
The plywood experiment make me think that if you had small holes going throw were the resin would have seep into it would be much much stronger.
That could be a good way to make strong bulkhead instead of layering fiberglass, filleting, etc, get the resin into the wood more to create a better bond of the two materials
Quality boat Builders have used vinylester resin for decades and that's good enough for me
Sailing Uma AND Mythbusters, it don't get any better
The tabs in your bilge broke the epoxy join as you were using ply as leverage, so it wasn’t the glue strength on the ply, it was the sheer strength of the ply vs glue strength of epoxy. I tested maybe 20,000 pieces of plywood for my graduate study. The phenolic resins in plywood are WAY weaker than any glue you are using, so results expected. Ply loses massive strength when soaked for 24-36 hours, sealing your ply protects your bulkheads.
Looks like your intuition & budget were right on the money.
Your tests finding weakness of strength in ply when soaked for a relatively short period of time is very interesting and definitely worth keeping in mind for anyone doing this sort of stuff
would you suggest making your own ply, or just go with another material if more strength is needed?
I would just use the ply for shape and make the resin be strong enough to deal with the stress.
@@Krieghandt just use ply, great material when sealed. Always use varnish, epoxy, gel coat or whatever seals it from moisture. Ply will last a very long time.
Unlike metals that fatigue over time, ply is a near perfect bulkhead material for duration & punishment in rough seas. Just look at all the oldest boats that are still around
@@KrieghandtCommercial ply is made with massive presses under huge pressure & tightly controlled. I doubt it’s worth the time & effort to make. You are not likely to achieve the same consistency & more importantly time taken. Sailing is way better use of time IMHO, use commercial ply!
Love the tests!
May I give you a suggestion about your focusing drink? I stopped coffee 10 years ago and I switched to green tea much healthier without the down fall of caffeine and sugar in your body, give it a try, I'm sure you will be surprised! Great story and great editing, well done Uma crew!!! Ciao😊
Epoxy will have a slight edge wood to wood. One trick Ive used over the decades is to this the Expoxy to reduce the thickness and it will soak deeper into the wood when bonding two woods togeather.
Thank you for your service! 😊
Liked the video for multiple reasons! Will you also address advantages and disadvantages of both Epoxy and VE with regards to UV resistance and Hydroscopic features? hopefully you will come back to this in a later video when doing other jobs that seem more appropriate to these requirements.
When it comes down to adhering wood/multiplex to itself, a cost effective water resistant D3 or D4 grade PolyVinylAcetate glue (white glue) will offer the same or even better results compared to Epoxy (glue).
Cheers, Eelco
Isn't it true that the glue requires that the 2 surfaces has no gaps, i.e. CNC cut material is the way to make surfaces perfect for glueing.
Correct. PVA glue does not offer gap filling properties.
On the final test (around 20:40), your plywood would have popped off completely before the tab delaminated (on both materials) if your clamp didn't actually compress the fiberglass to the plywood. ;)
I still like that you tested. What I got out of it, is that they're both good enough since the plywood is weaker then either epoxy or vinylester, at least on a bend type of force applied. Thanks!
If it hasn't been said yet.. epoxy elongation: On my boat, the designer took into account the elongation factors and tensile strength between System 3 epoxy and West System. In doing so, he specified which epoxy worked best for which duty.. (Those were readily available epoxies back in the '90's when I started my boat.) For instance, if something were to have a bit of flex, or to resist flex.. he spec'd which epoxy to use. I haven't looked but suppose vinyl ester is fairly rigid, which may be desirable for particular applications if so. Still, that may be splitting hairs and not really worth the bother.. I'm not a designer so don't know.
It’s vital info if you’re making something near the edge of mechanical limits. Like a race boat or airplane.
Boatworkstoday shout out!!! Love that channel too!
Very good investigation.
Sure, there are variables not completely controlled. Yet your care to distinguish the unknowns/uncontrolled and the discipline to account for them in your analysis of the observed results - that was as good, sometimes better, than some science I've seen in practice!
I will put more attention in (my hobby) builds to the penetration and bonding and no longer assume epoxy is much stronger than VE.
Weird. I've been following this channel for a very long time, and this is the first time one of your videos actually popped up on my suggestions, usually i have to search every weekend. Something's up with the algorithm.
Hey that’s cool! I guess?
Are you subcribed?
Should be in your Subscribed feed all the time. The Home feed is suggestions from TH-cam with no guarantee that channels you've subscribed to will always appear there. I always use the Subscribed feed rather than Home so I never miss a video from my favourite channels.
Supergoodenough = Send it!
Love this episode.
Very interesting, thankyou for bringing up vinylester resins! Though I did composite studies a quarter of a century ago, it led me to look it up in the Howard Hino school of google studies (how would he know) and discovered vinyl ester is a cross between poly and epoxy, in that it does not have the same rigid backbone as epoxy but is much more durable than polyester.
Meaning it does have great strength without snapping, or is less brittle than epoxy!
Though also interesting is a comment that states epoxy is less porous so should be used on the outside of the hull. I do wonder about that as there are flex moments in any boat in high seas, a harder substance will be more likely to crack up and so rendering it useless to protect the inner layers. Perhaps there needs to be a bit more study in that area with vinylester resins to prove it it as a viable outside layer. Certainly, how many boats are out there blistering away with only paint and antifoul protecting the hull!!?
Very interesting. I would have gambled on much more of a difference.
I quit boat work years ago and was only using polyester or epoxy, would be nice to get similar experiments with polyester specially for holes in decks, would vinyl be as good or good enough to replace expensive epoxy.
Great video again thank you.
I have always used vinyl ester on all my boats. Never had a problem.
Where have you been we've been missing your sailboat videos hope you get back in the water soon take care
Fatigue strength comparison seems like a key point of consideration for a sailboat.
About the screws at 5:45. I saw that you bought V2A screws. Only V4A screws are good enough for use in seawater. Only these are really rustproof in this demanding environment, but the V2A might be okay for indoor use.
I see one potential problem; the mixing of materials, epoxy & vinylester. Materials age diffrently and could cause issues with diffrent hardness of the materials as they age. This could cause delamination between the two materials. Rule of thumb in the coating industry is to use same material (binder) that was used before. Just a thought, and i would not be to concerned about it.
You need to put Colloidal Silica into your epoxy or vinylester to make a filler for the 90 degree angles. This will strengthen the hold of the fiber glass.
Nice video. Thanks for sharing.
I think here it is necessary to pay more attention to the property of water penetration, in particular the effect of osmosis, elasticity, resistance to cracking, etc.