@@captainrgd1565 one possible advantage of antiquated defenses and no ships in position, the invasion might have been mostly bloodless. they might have recovered totally and quickly. i dont recall if they mentioned casualties or damage to batazed, but it would likely be minimal if it was a steam rolling, the dominion did want to control the alpha/beta quadrant, not burn it.
I believe Dabo girl could not press charges because she was not assaulted... it was Tolar being annoying at best, and Quark who decided to intervene and he was assaulted.
Garak never traded anything for the data rod. He probably has a stash of those rods in his quarters. He lied to Sisko saying he had a "contact" who demanded bio-mimetic gel in return for one and this was the only way they could get it because he needed the gel himself. Note Dr Bashir's complaint that bio-mimetic gel can be used to make "organic explosives" among other things. That's why Garak wanted it. He needed the gel to make a bomb that could be planted on the Romulan Senator's ship without it being detected. That's why the amount of gel was negotiable.
He probably used his prep time after the first discussion to get in touch with contacts within the Romulan Star Empire and find out the Senator's itinerary ahead of time, that's why he then had to kill them to cover up the obvious trail.
You know what's hilarious... I've seen this episode many times, and your interpretation still hadn't yet occurred to me. But I'll bet that's exactly what the writers intended to convey. Great catch!
@@pokealex388 : Yet another great point, and also one I hadn't yet considered. lol I'm actually watching through the series again, presently at the end of season three. Once this episode comes back up, I'll be enjoying it in an entirely new way!
I believe that Garak didn't so much as manipulate Sisko, but rather guided him through Federation indoctrination and morality. Sisko didn't fall. He sacrificed himself to save the Alpha and Beta quadrants.
TheMan WhoLaughs Sisko is not a blind libtard, I know what blind libtards are like and he is not one. Such people believe that everyone else around them shares the same viewpoints that they do, not realizing that that is not the truth.
@TheMan WhoLaughs only an idiot would apply some asinine nonsense like that to a fictional sci fi show's character. You have to be not only profoundly stupid, but also intensely lacking in logic to say something like that
True that if Garak had disclosed what his real intentions (Assassination) were Sisko's do gooder fed attitude would have gotten in the way and the alpha/beta quadrant, the war and essentially the Federation would have been lost!
@@kurtuhlig2553 or someone that is genuinely uncomfortable about someone else around them having a fundamentally different viewpoint, they want a politically homogeneous culture. I am solidly conservative (but for sure not a cookie cutter stereotypical one) and I have some friends and relatives that definitely have democrat leanings or viewpoints on a few or many subjects but we simply don't bring up politics and we all get along just fine as if it doesn't exist, but I definitely have a few relatives that simply cannot help themselves and are genuinely uncomfortable even being in the same room as someone they do not agree with and will be deliberately spiteful with politics at every opportunity.
In the afterlife, Sun Tzu was asked, "Honorable Master, though your writings implore us to do so, why would an honorable ruler grant such great rewards to lying, wretched, uncouth, low-born spies?" Sun Tzu replied, "go check out that Garak character in DS9 - In the Pale Moonlight, and everything will be made clear..."
@@williambruce7943 In the end all these things are just tools for a ruler to keep his power. You can not divert militrary form rulership, becuase it is the duty of any lord to learn the ways of war, because armed people will never listen to unarmed ones.
@@williambruce7943 Umm, the entire book is written as advice for his ruler. He advocates that the ruler should pay his spies well. In fact a lot of the lore around The Art Of War was him having discourse with his ruler, supposedly King Helu of Wu. This was a common occurrence in the Warring States period for kings who wanted more power to personally interview top potential advisors and able men, whether intimately one on one for trusted people or in court for brand new people, to see if they want to either follow their advice or recruit them for a job. In this case, Sun was a trusted man in Wu. So this is in that context as he advises the ruler and the ruler is asking, why, as a ruler, should I do this.
@@ricardobomber93 Pre-Dominion war Garak: In Machiavelli, he'd find a kindred spirit. Pre-Dominion war Garak: In Sun Tzu he'd find him "interesting". Post-Dominion war Garak: Machiavellin...ok. Post-Dominion war Garak: Sun Tzu is the master.
The Dominion left DS9 alone (for the most part) probably due to their inability to understand how Sisko had managed to make literally thousands of their ships disappear while going through the wormhole. The proximity of the Wormhole to the station along with the Founder's complete lack of knowledge regarding "the Prophets" and what they were and were not capable of is almost certainly why the Dominion left DS9 alone after Sacrifice of Angels. The Founders were if nothing else a race of beings that liked order and predictability and an "X-Factor" of that magnitude was likely fairly off putting to them in regards to a war of galactic proportions. The female Founder probably decided to leave DS9 alone until after forcing the rest of the Federation to surrender, at which point DS9 would have by default been included in that victory.
@@christopherbrown6322 That's exactly my thoughts on this. I don't think it was that they couldn't take DS9, I think they chose not to, because Odo was there, and they didn't need it.
The Founders never really seemed that interested or concerned with the 'wormhole aliens'/'Prophets', which _is_ strange when you think about it. They did, however, have a vested interest in Odo's welfare, and I agree that he was their primary motivation for sparing DS9.
@@KSloyan The Dominion made a nonaggression pact with Bajor. That's why DS9 was left alone. IIRC, when the Cardassians asked about it, Weyoun said sth to the effect that maintaining the pact with Bajor would encourage other non-Federation species in the sector to make peace with the Dominion
The existence of section 31 puts this episode in a whole new light for me. If a star fleet captain can pull this, I have no doubt that section 31 is more "official" than they let on. The virtuous image of the federation is fake because like Sisko says, "it's easy to be a Saint in paradise."
@@blackhawks81H given how terrible most of TOS and the first few seasons of TNG were under his creative control (and that ridiculous softcore film about the high school coach murdering girls - name escapes me), can't say I feel that badly for his perpetual revolutions.
@Joseph Craig(neat thumbnail, btw!)-- while i understand why Sisko did what he did, it's just not worth it imho. My theory(and it's just a theory, so take it for the grain of salt it's worth to you) is that the Romulans were going to help the Federation anyway, they were just waiting long enough to have a better bargaining position. Sisko practically sold his soul to a pair of devils (Garrak and Quark respectfully) just so the Federation had an ally earlier than necessary. The rest of the season we watched as a good Starfleet Officer spiraled out of control and almost committed both Treason & Murder, all due to what he did here.
@@johnnysizemore5797 you seem to avoid the important question of necessary to who. Star Fleet should continue to suffer countless casualties because the Romulan's wanted to continue their favored game of realpolitik? The Romulans likely would have held off as long as possible so as to gain as dominant a position in the post war galaxy, which by all means they should. Lets not pretend that almost 80 years later D-Day is more important to us than Stalingrad for the simple fact that those were our boys laying down their lives instead of the Red Army. Just as a Russian history class will focus on the eastern front for the very same reason. All that said, to my mind a false flag attack might as well be a formal invitation in Romulan politiks. As authoritarian is the Romulan Senate may be that does not mean they can wage war indiscriminately with out reason. I believe the Romulan's at the very least suspected that Star Fleet was behind the attack, if not flat out knew. The Senator sent no word of his discovery, not even a contingency in the case of his death? I see a Romulan Senate quite pleased with the Self-Righteous Star Fleet getting their hands dirty as they would, seeing in them an ally finally willing to win the war, no matter the cost. That on top of Cisco's previous claim that Star Fleet officers don't believe in the human soul (something he seems to grow out as the emissary but that is besides the point), without a higher power to derive his morality from, Star Fleet and his service to the Federation by necessity fill that void. His higher calling is his duty to Star Fleet, why wouldn't he sacrifice any part of himself to preserve it?
@Kitt Spiken(you are awesome! I actually like Star Trek morality debates, so honestly thank you for this! :D)-- the question becomes: how low is too low? As much as i like Sisko(his self-righteousness notwithstanding), he was willing to break the very Morals The Federation was founded on in order to save it. By doing what he did, he became the very villian he "fought" against in the attempted Command Coup. Was it the right move in the end? Yes, as it gave Starfleet time to come up with a better plan. Was it worth it to destory the soul of The Federation in order to do it? No, as Starfleet was never the same afterward. The End Never Justify The Means. Odo learned that the hard way, if you remember..... Brief tanget: this is honestly one of my favorite seasons of DS9, as it shows that even The Federation has a Dark side and BOY is it Dark....
It is also possible the Romulans wouldn't have joined the war at all and simply wait as the powers smashed each other. If the fed-klingons won Both would be at a much weaker position and easier to manipulate. Maybe try and break their alliance and make the klingons their puppet by starting another civil war/coup as they like doing, would the Romulans succeed will probably be up to debate. The Federation might not be able to intervene because they might be struggling to hold themselves together or might not be willing to fight another war right after the dominion war. And the Romulans might try and use the federation weaker position to try and break up the federation and might try to conquer Vulcan again. If the Dominion-Cardassian-Breen alliance won. The Romulans will try and work with the Cardassians as they did in the past. And break up their alliance as I'm sure the Cardassians will probably break their alliance as they wouldn't want to be subjects to the dominion. And probably try and gobble up the federation border because the federation will probably to weak to defend themselves at least in the short term and try make the klingons their puppets. But what do you guys think?
@ Sergio Milho-- it's certainly a possibility that the Romulans would've just waited the war out and pounced on the survivors. The idea fits with both their SOP(pit two enemies against each other, hit the weakened winner before they recover) and political stance at the time. Only problem i see with that idea are the Changelings themselves. Given what we, the audience & geeky fans, know of the Motis Operandi, they HAD to have had at least two-three of their own hidden amongst the Romulan Military and Senate egging that "Neutrality" on(wouldn'tve put it past 'em to have Breenak as one. Explain how he was "simply passing through"). No, they were gonna help the Federation regardless, just as soon in the War as they did.
Garak is by far my favourite character in Star Trek, he is a loose cannon. Never in the entire series are you 100% certain he is or is not still a spy for cardassia. Better yet, the moment Sisko comes to Garak with the plot, it was his mission, not Siskos. Sisko was played like a fiddle and still believed he was in charge. The moment he brought up the plan, I’m sure Garak referred to his pre made plan for this exact scenario and knew immediately how to get no less than exactly what he wanted. Beautiful writing. Favourite episode.
@@FreelancerFreak This exactly. He is, when normal, anything but a loose cannon. Now we got to see a couple episodes with Garak kind of loses it and becomes imbalanced (when the go to the other Terak and find the super soldiers, when his implant goes crazy, and when he and his dad were captured by the Dominion with Worf, the breen, General Martok, and others), and a singular aspect of Garak that normally he has "sheathed" becomes prominent.
I compare the Dominion's using Romulan territory to launch offenses against the UFP to the way the North Vietnamese and VC attacked U.S. forces using Cambodia and Laos as staging areas and egress points since the rules of engagement prevented the U.S from 'officially' entering those nations. In my opinion this wasn't the Starfleet losing it's soul. It was Sisko coming to the realization that Idealism is getting good people killed, and forced the UFP to pull it's head out if it's ass. They didn't lose their soul, their eyes just finally opened.
The threat against Tolar was moot...Garak confirms in the end conversation at the tailor shop that he is already dead. This is a fascinating dissection of two men in different realities, Garak born to the head of the Obsidian order who once told Bashir that telling the truth was a lazy result of not being able to tell a really good lie, and Sisko who is living in the delusion that as a Starfleet officer he is above sacrificing his morals to get the job done. The finest writing of all the Star Trek mythos.
I never bought the negative thoughts on Pale Moonlight. The federation had played fair and were loosing - bady. And they knew (correctly) that they would have to accept the Founders as Gods and owners of all or they would be wiped out. Morals are nice but you know what the first moral law says “Don’t go extinct” The federation had found other powers that had gone extinct and now given a choice they decided is life was worth a necessary evil. They are not the first to make that choice and in rl people have to do it to. Life sucks like that
I always assumed Garak needed the gel to make the organic explosives Bashir talked about. I think he already had the data rod, but that couldn't help him sneak explosives onto the senator's shuttle. He needed the gel to make the explosives. He needed Sisko to get the gel. I want a video on the gel. Sounds like some handy stuff!
What I always took from Bashir's response to the situation at the beginning of the episode was it basically being an, "I told you so." to Sisko, but through the filter of rage and grief because of current events.
Yes that was a brilliant episode, extremaly well written and executed - it was amazing indeed. And yes evolution of the Sisko in that episode was just so "natural" bit by bit he was stepping ever closer into the darkness.
He was fighting for humanity and if Star Fleet lost the war then the Dominion would have punished humanity. There are examples of the Dominion doing that.
" To the Victor go the spoils" and "Woe to the vanquished". These statements should explain everything. In war, you're either the victor or the vanquished. Which would you choose?
By LoreReloaded's logic, the British should have just surrendered to the Nazis in 1940 when it looked almost assured that the Third Reich would win, before the Soviet Union and the United States came into the war. Because immediate surrender to the Third Reich would have saved lives, right? This is idiotic. This episode is a perfect example that it's impossible to fight a "clean" war in which you make no moral compromises, just as in WW2 the British/US sometimes had to let their own soldiers die rather than providing forewarning of Nazi attack and thus risking the Third Reich realise they'd cracked the Ultra code. Similarly, when the Nazis turned their aircraft from attacks on British fighter bases to targeting British civilians, it was a reprieve that ultimately won the Battle of Britain, even though it meant accepting civilian deaths rather than further damage to Fighter Command bases, pilots and aircraft.
I don’t get why people think there is some morality when it comes to war. Especially the fact the Dominion is waging a full total war on the Federation. The Federation which fights a war based on accords and no doubt conventions and rules. The federation is fighting with its hands tied behind its back and Sisko had to be the devil and do what was necessary to fight the Dominion meanwhile the federation lives in paradise.
Total war is fought using a preemption/reaction escalation system the way to win is to find out your opponent's next move, ideally before it happens, and counter it, generally you stick as close to your nation's moral compass as you can, but in the end effective countermeasures are more important that any code of conduct. This is why Total Wars are so horriffic, opponents are constantly reacting to eachother, often one-upping the recieved damage.
Yeah, the best way to fight a war against an immoral enemy is to become them. Pointless fighting against something if you're no better than they are...
@@jolan_tru If that was some kind of sarcasm, it should probably be rephrased, as that sounds mor like a typo than anything sarcastic, nevermind factual.
@@LanMandragon1720 Not to mention they lost an overwhelming force to the wormhole with no explanation. Better to avoid the Bermuda Triangle than send your fleet into it over and over again in the middle of a fight you are currently winning regardless.
This episode was my absolute favorite from DS9 possibly of all Star Trek episodes. Aside from being so well written and produced, it finally shined the light of reality on the morally superior, rainbows and unicorns mentality of the Federation. No matter how virtuous, noble and enlightened a person or nation is, there is always the possibility of facing an enemy hell bent on your destruction that will turn those perceived strengths into the very weapons used to destroy you. One thing I don;t think you touched upon was the moral cop out Sisko or anyone else in the Federation could use to assuage their guilt of tricking the Romulans into joining the war. Having dispatched of the Federation & Klingon Empire, the Romulans would have been the next target of the Dominion. Only now, instead of facing The Dominion with still-powerful allies, the Romulans would have faced them alone, with the Dominion having the additional resources of the newly conquered alliance territories, plus a still loyal Cardassia and now unfettered resources from the Gamma quadrant. Also, -2 for using 'irregardless' twice. ;-)
Its like that line in mass effect. "Ask the ashes of a tillion dead if honor matters, their silence is their answer" when faced with extermination there isnt a wall they wont climb, no line they wont cross.
Great Analysis! I also believe that Garak used the Gel to make the bomb. Explosives is one of the things Bashir told Sisko the gel could be used for. This is one of your best analysis of the best episode of Trek to date.
I think a big part of this stems from the fact that Star Trek and Next Gen are vacuums and an impossible fantasy. The Enterprise is viewed as the best and brightest of the Starfleet, and what we should strive for. And yet outside of the Enterprise we see a lot of corruption and shadow games. This implies that the Enterprise is not the ideal, but instead the place where the idealistic and the people you want for First Contact are placed. The rest of Starfleet are more along the lines of Deep Space Nine, where they aspire to follow certain codes of conduct but the reality of the Galaxy is that this is not always possible. The Borg are not an anomaly and even their encounters with the Klingons and the Romulans are careful maneuvers of Chess or Go...and that is only in one specific ship and it's infamous name and captains. Arguably even Bashir shows the problems of that, Bashir is introduced in The Next Gen as morally grey, but you can argue that his time among idealists has rubbed off on him, and in Deep Space 9 he caries that view with him through his life, while the rest of Starfleet and the Alpha Quadrant are more jaded. You also see this in reverse with the Maquis, and Eddington who was a former member of Starfleet who defected. The crew of the USS Enterprise, so Star Trek and The Next Gen should not be the standard to which you hold morals. They are the idealistic and accordingly the naive and easily manipulated with the right touch. Their standard of living is only capable on their ship, not by Starfleet as a whole, and by the goings on in the two shows, not even then. Picard is a a diplomat, and able to keep things at the status quo. But he is not able or willing to sacrifice his morals if the circumstances demand it. A good man standing his ground while the world around him burns can only say he took his morals with him to his grave. Not that he did everything in his power to stop it. And that is Picard. He is a good man, and he is a moralistic man. But he is not a realistic man and is incapable of making decisions that require him to compromise, he would rather die and see other people die with him, than bend. And that is not someone you want in command of anything more than a ship.
All's fair in love and war. For me, this is one of the defining episodes of DS9. Sisko realises, with Garak's help, that he can't play by the rules and win if the opponent won't abide by the same rules. But Sisko more than realises as well, the person you destroy with a lie can destroy you with the truth.
In any clash of civilizations, the choice is submit to alien domination or to fight and maybe to die. To quote General John Stark in a letter he wrote in 1809 “Live free or die; death is not the worst of evils.” Life under the subjection of the Dominion would be worse than death.
I'm going to have to disagree with you. As long you're still alive, even subjugated, there's a good chance of emerging from that subjugation again at some point, whether through the moral growth of the captor power or by losing its power to control directly, whether in war or by disease etc etc. As long as you're still in the game, there's always a chance to emerge victorious.
Those values are worthless when losing a war for survival. The very idea of a limited war is insane for the defending side. If I'm attacked by someone with a knife then it's crazy for me to pull a knife to defend myself if I'm also carrying a firearm. If you attack first then you're responsible for preparing for all possible responses.
In my own personal theory. Garak all ready had the rod as a back up before he left Cardassia, Before he leaves with Worf in the 2 part episode By Inferno's Light he tells Bashier where a very important data rod is located in his quarters then told him to eat it jokingly. Knowing Garak this is a half truth.
Of course Garak already had this plan when Sisko asked him the first time. And while I agree with you that dragging more people into the conflict isn't "good", please remember that ethics of War are different than those of Peacetime.
Nonsense. The Ethics don't change. Only the level of honesty we have about who we really are, and who we always were. The shadow is every bit as real as the light that defines it and the shape that casts it.
@@Eleolius Other than an unfortunate tendency to wax metaphorical toward the end - _well said!_ In tumultuous times such as war, people's long established facades can suddenly fall away, often revealing dark and selfish mindsets. Sadly, there are fewer _truly_ ethical individuals in our world than most of us would like to accept.
@@anhedonianepiphany5588 Yes and no. It should be like that, but I have to tell you I learned a subject called "War Ethic" from professor of Ethics that hates War. And I don't blame her. We should strive to be better, but we often let our view to be lax. For example you can't force someone to be a hero or for martyrdom except during the War. And even then it isn't very nice thing to do. But sometimes you have no other choice. And as Kyle Heins put it below your comment - our ethics do not have to be universal. Not so long ago some American tried to tell me how 2nd Amendment is a natural law and applies everywhere regardless of Jurisdiction, because it only codified what is our given law. If we cannot accept differences even within human race, than we will have trouble when we meet aliens. And no, I do not condone everything that Garak did. But perhaps we should judge it after we look from every perspective?
@@jannegrey Uh, unfortunately you have addressed the wrong commentator, as nothing you've just written actually relates to my post. It seems that you've conflated _my_ comment and the post immediately above mine. It's also pretty obvious that most participants are using the word 'ethics' _very_ loosely, when what they really mean is _personal morality._ Anyway, I'll leave you to your delusions of grandeur.
I always found the weirdest part of "Statistical Probabilities" is that Romulan entry into the war is never discussed. A coup on Cardassia, yes, but no Romulan involvement. I suppose it could have been included in the blanket "all possibilities" statement, but it's huge enough that it should have had its own mention.
Federation Founding race discussion Tellarites: We have been arguing for this type of action for some time. Now you see our point of view. Vulcans: We lobbied to have Control AI be responsible for the fleet a few years back so our logic may be flawed with the big decisions. Andorians: All right! The Dominion pushed the pink skins out on the thin ice! Now the real war begins! Humans: Man they took our hedonistic pleasure planet away! Burn them all!
@@allthenewsordeath5772 it wasn't meant to be I just meant the federation thrives on communication and goodwill and betrayed seems to very much aboutgoodwill and understanding throughcommunication... as although I found her lack of reading minds sad when her mother could :/ She makes do with emotional reading and it's good commentary on how we sllstruggle to understand each other though
Starfleet may have lost its soul, but in return got something for more valuable. A brain! In The Pale Moonlight is a masterpiece. Thank goodness Gene Roddenberry kicked the bucket when he did. Had be been alive he never would have allowed such a storyline.
I've already seen all these episodes but I gave you a full watch and like cause, you know, TH-cam stuff. Its literally the least I could do for a creator I enjoy so much.
Even I actually met Garak somehow in an alternate dimension where Trek was truly taking place and I knew that it was really him and ALL he said was, “I am Garak”... I STILL wouldn’t believe him.
Your willingness to deep dive into the “what ifs” and taking out cannon and thinking through what would make more sense to have happened. Your ability to go into the rabbit holes is so refreshing
A great analysis, but made from the perspective of a bureaucrat sitting in a comfortable luxury office. The realities of war and frontline can never be understood by idealists. As Section 31’s Sloan told Bashir, ‘ you need men like us to protect men like you’.
Garak was a legend on DS9. He literally saved the Federation and the Alpha quadrant from the Dominion with this one stroke. Sisko should have been in a rush to go and high 5 him, not beat the crap out of him when he got the news that the shuttle carrying Vreenak was destroyed IMO. How did he not see the tactical advantage of this happening in the first place anyway?
Thought provoking and worthwhile essay. Some probably annoying notes: “Irregardless” isn’t a word…you probably wanted “regardless” or “irrespective”. (03:19) I may have misunderstood your reasoning, but you argue that the orchestration of Romulus’ entry into the war wasn’t “good” or “virtuous” 3:18 because it would necessarily lead to the deaths of many thousands of Romulans. That relies on two assumptions - the Romulans would never have had to fight a war against the Dominion, and more lives in total would be lost because of Romulan participation. The first is possible, though as Sisko argued, it seems unlikely the Founders would have tolerated a powerful independent Romulan Empire once they had conquered the Federation. The second is far, far less likely. While Romulans wouldn’t have perished, far more people - of a huge variety of species - would have died without Romulan participation. Empires aren’t often characterized by kindness and care. You say that, during his initial conversation with Sisko, Grathon Tolar “…shows himself to be a little bit of a pervert.” (10:26) Um, how, exactly? He later does prove to be a drunkard with a penchant for violence, but “pervert”? You attack Sisko’s moral fiber, saying he “…doesn’t hear…” his conscience “…a lot…”. That’s an incredible claim. Sisko at one point makes the argument anchored in moral duty, asking himself how he could indulge in the finer points of morality - preserve his self-image - at the expense of uncountable numbers of victims of the war. That is someone putting the lives of others before his own needs, which, while self-evidently precarious, is nonetheless a very moral, very noble decision. I never understood why Sisko threatens Tolar AFTER the fabricated meeting has already been burned into the datarod. What was the point? “…even at the cost of all of its values that it once held…” (18:23) Starfleet wasn’t aiming at “preserving itself” and nowhere in the Federation Charter does it restrict allowable actions when the only alternative is to be overrun and conquered. True, most people and entities see themselves as justified and righteous no matter their actions. And you may wish to argue that self-determination, mutuality, human (and all other participating species) flourishing, and peace are all biased concepts without inherent virtue - if you insist. But an aggressive empire with a massive military and an absolutist, immortal elite bent on violently destroying much of what you hold dear - self-determination, peace, etc., warrants, and even demands, every defense.
Let's see: The federation and the klingon empire were losing the war. Millions were already dead, billions to come. The only chance was with the romulans. And still: the discussion is about the morality of one man? Really?
Anhedonian Epiphany is correct, irregardless isn't the opposite of regardless (that would be regarding) - it's not a real word, though in some sense it's become so by default simply because so many people misuse it. If you're itching to use something with *ir* in it, go with irrespective.
@@CanuckGod my question for people when they use the word is always "What does regardless mean...What does Irregardless mean". I swear every time it clicks in their head and they're like "well fuck"
Your comment about Bashir's records about the bio gel staying intact makes me wonder how involved Section 31 was in this episode.... they have manipulated lesser events for the good of the Federation, so why wouldn't they be involved in this event?
I really like the bomb idea for the biomimetic gel. Given what's described, I can think of a couple of ways it could be used (narratively) as an explosive: 1: Garak gets it on to the ship in an inert state, a control/fuse device programs it to convert to an organic explosive (eg. omatol, what's in a diesel bomb), shuttle goes boom. Even with the explosives we have today 80 kilos on the inside of the shuttle would make one heck of a bang. 2: Garak uses the gel to make a hard/impossible to trace explosive, sneaks it on to the shuttle. Shuttle goes bang. 3: Garak uses the gel to make something that makes the ship go bang by itself, say by corroding a plasma conduit, shorting out a control circuit etc. From a storytelling perspective, there's all manner of angles you could use.
Do you remember how Statistical Probabilities ended though? "What do you make of that, Jack? Why didn't you anticipate that? Why didn't you factor _her_ into your equation? Because you thought you knew everything... but you didn't even know what was gonna happen in this room. One person derailed your plans. One person changed the course of history. Now, I don't know about you... but that makes me think... that maybe... just maybe... things might not turn out the way we thought." You've gotta take the _whole_ episode into account, including the part when Bashir changed his mind about how trustworthy those predictions actually were if one tiny variable could completely nullify the whole supposedly brilliant plan.
The writers themselves seem to forget that Earth's neighbourhood is both the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Both in Voyager and DS9 they only say "Alpha Quadrant".
In this particular case, bending the knee to save lives would not be the moral decision. The Founders had already been shown that had genetically engineered their subject species to permanents slaves.
Faking evidence is super easy, barely an inconvenience. -Garrick Oh Really? -Sisko Yeah, it’ll just cost the lives of all my contacts, you’ll meet a future dead man and ultimately lie to a romulan senator I’ll later assassinate. -Garrick Boy this sounds a bit more inconvenient than you initially led on. -Sisko I’m going to need you in the Federation to get all the way off my back on this sir. -Garrick Hang on Benjamin, let me get off that thing first. -Jadzia Damnit old ma- Sisko Okay I’m going to stop you right there Captain do you think Bashir’s the only one chasing after this bone on this station? I’m not exactly batting 100 on space tinder in this sector.
Well, Sisko and Garak beat the Romulans in their own game, they literally outsmarted the master of lies and secrets and that is no easy task. It can be argued that only worked because the Tal Shiar was críppled and with more internal Struggles than ever
DS9 would require a huge amount of resources to take. In the first part of the war it took out 50 ships before falling. So I don't find it that unbelievable. It's not that uncommon to in war to be deep into enemy territory one one front, but have made no progress on another.
Excellent analysis and awesome insight into the writers as well as the characters. Ultimately, Garak wasnthe one of the keys that gave the federation a fighting chance at victory.
I think the Senator was the one Tain referred to on his deathbed and Garak told him was dead. Vreenaks death was on Garaks todo list. The Gel was definitely used in the bomb, the Tal Shiar would easily detect any conventional explosive and because of its scarcity and restrictive use, they would never suspect its use in an explosive.
Garak either stole the optilythic data crystal during the occupation or had the means to manufacture one from scratch at his disposla hidden on the station. No one that resoruceful would not have option to get the materials and instruments of his trade readily.
In the pale moonlight is without a doubt, one of the best episodes of trek, even to look back in hindsight, and now that we've had 20+ years to digest the dominion war, my thoughts on the finale of DS9 are as follows, the final battle with Dukat goes ahead as shown, as Sisco falls into the flames in the cave, he has another vision, the Prophets tell him his journey is not over, ie: Bajor becomes a full member state of the Federation, so the prophets send him back to his shuttle completely unharmed, Sisco sits in the cockpit contemplating everything and returns to the station, a few days later everything on the station is back to normal, Sisco is looking over something when Starfleet Security arrive and arrest him on war crimes, Bashir's report went back to Starfleet Medical, they saw it and investigated Sisco, and the very last scene of Star Trek Deep Space 9, would be Captain Sisco led away from his office, under arrest facing charges and probable court martial, Kira takes command, sits in Siscos office solemnly holding his baseball wondering to herself if hell ever return. The end
It is far easier to argue the ethics of what should have been done, writing the history as the victor. Than it is to argue what should have been done being occupied as the defeated.
Great Jack Napier quote. Have you ever danced with the devil by the pale 🎑 light? Just a little something I ask all my prey. If Sisko didn't do this then they are dead and morality might be moot. If there's an afterlife then they might be hard questions. The prophets might be waiting for him.
Considering I just watched and commented on the separate (and now redundant) parts of this video, I thought I would make a super cut of my own. Comparing Sisco in this episode and Statistical Probability is apples and oranges. Compromising the principles of your civilization and submitting to outside domination is not the same as compromising your personal principles (informed as they are by your service to your civilization and station) to uphold those principles for your civilization at large . This is existential war. This is not Cardassian subterfuge, Romulan realpolitik, or Klingon border conflict. This is all of the above with the explicit aim to end Federation civilization as we know it. Just because the founders have the capacity to negotiate, does not mean they are any less of an existential threat than the Borg. 4 Star General Curtis Lemay put it thusly: "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.. Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspect of what he is doing, but all war is Immoral and if you let that bother you, you're not a good soldier." I don't mean to engage in war crime apologetics, but to equate absolute submission and unequivocal surrender to immoral actions of a General in a hot war is ludicrous. Curtis Lemay has some pretty gnarly quotes on the subject (how many of them are kayfabe as deterrent we may never know), but the fact remains that holding yourself to a higher rules of engagement is a perfect way to lose a war with your head held high. Considering all it cost Cisco here (if we believe Garak) was some Cardassian Spooks, a counterfeiter/uncharged sex offender, and a Romulan Senator plus his detail, I'd say that was pretty damn cheap. "Irregardless" lul. Though seriously, a fair and accurate analysis of the Romulan mindset and realpolitik. Though you seem to abandon the thought inches from the finish line. What makes you so certain that the Romulan govt. did not suspect the assassination of their senator by the Star Fleet and extension the Federation? The civilization at the center of the Federation is Humanity and as much as Star Trek likes to pretend our past bears no connection to where we stand in the 24th century, the Romulan's are too old a civilization to think a few hundred years could bring about such radical change. Humanity will persevere, by any means necessary. I agree with your assessment that the Romulan always planned on entering the conflict on the Federation's side, but it was up to the Federation to show how committed they were to this conflict. The Romulan's hold their now centuries long adversary in contempt, but not simultaneously infallible and incompetent. The Federation is not Infallible in upholding its morals (that the Romulan's view as a facade), and is not so incompetent that they would be destroyed rather than compromise. We're both cramming writing between the lines, but the Romulan's just so happened to lend their cloaking device to the ship that Cisco commands, inserting a liason into his crew. They would have already known his service record, have impressions of his character, I have no doubt that he would be a person of interest for the Romulan High Command. Garak infiltrated Romulan society as a Gardener, Romulan's surely had spies in deeper covers than the Cardassian upstarts. Given that Bashir had his pick of where to serve, assuming other officers had the same privilege, no doubt Romulus has spies in Star Fleet on board Deep Space Nine. And after all the information their agents had undoubtedly already gathered, what better way to spy on Cisco further than with an invitation? Vreenak was insufferably smug in every meeting he had with the alliance, a sentiment undoubtedly held by the entire Romulan Senate. The Federations diplomacy was failing them, as the Romulan's ALWAYS knew it would. They knew our history and what humanity was capable of and they knew that the longer they waited the better their position would be. They had tremendous opportunity before them. They waited for the Federation's desperation to cause the mask to slip, for the Federation to be forced to sink to their level. The longer the Federation put their abstract principals before the tangible lives of their crewman and ships the better the Romulan position would be in the post war galaxy. On top of that, as a Romulan I would have no interest in allying myself with the Federation UNTIL the mask slipped because obviously they are not ready to do what is necessary to win this conflict and would fight me every step of the way on plans they found "immoral." Better to hold out until we are all willing to acknowledge the stakes. I am not claiming that Senator Vreenak went to the meeting, where he accused Cisco knowing he would be made a martyr but claiming that the Romulan's would never even consider Star Fleet could act as they would is silly. I'm sure it brought them no small amount of pleasure to see the self righteous Federation stoop to their level down in the mud. We both agree the Romulan's would have sided with the Federation eventually. They know little of the dominion, most of it bad. The enemy you know is always preferable to the enemy you don't. They know the Federation would never act against them with open hostility, they had no such guarantee that the Dominion would treat them fairly once the Federation had been neutralized. Perhaps after the Romulan Senate met to discuss Star Fleet's failed attempt at subterfuge, the compromise would have been enough for them. All parties knew that such a meeting had taken place, so the Federation gave them falsified evidence and they caught them in their lie. No reason to embarrass your new ally when they've given you the excuse you needed to join the was as you intended, the evidence to rally your populace behind, and a splendid bit of leverage as the cherry on top. But with the assassination of Senator Vreenak, the only evidence the Romulan's hold against the Federation's alliance is the word of Senator Vreenak. Of course he sent some sort of advanced notice, or had contingencies in place in case of his death. He was flying through an active war zone leaving a key base of operations of an active belligerent. Maybe the Federation wouldn't be his first suspect. Maybe. But he is still a Romulan, a high ranking official at that, he would know who had the most to gain from his death; The Federation, Star Fleet and Captain Benjamin Cisco. I would like to give him credit, knowing the Federation was responsible for his death in whatever contingency recording he had made. That should that come to pass, he had clearly underestimated their will, and the Federation was finally ready to do what was necessary to win. I prefer that to the unnamed Senators putting it together, only because Vreenak's a key player in the story already, but him putting it together on his own or the Senate in the aftermath doesn't change the conclusion: The Romulan Senate accepted the false flag as their formal invitation to join the Dominion War, offering the Federation their respect, knowing it made their skin crawl.
"And if your conscience is bothering you, you can soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan Senator, one criminal... um, four Romulan security guards, I think. Maybe a shuttle pilot. And a navigator. Oh, all my contacts on Cardassia too. And, you know, your self-respect."
I strongly believe Garek was lying about his contacts. He had this planned from the beginning and knew there was no way to obtain any actual Cardassian/dominion documents. He knew he'd have to forge evidence, but also knew Sisko wouldn't want to do that if there was any other option. So he lies about his contacts to push Sisko over the edge and make him realise the neccesity of the situation.
Garak did not have anyone left to talk to on Cardassia, the fact that he had to outsource to get that data rod is a good indication of that. I've actually wondered if Quark supplied him with that rod and something else was going on with that biomimetic gel.
Garak's assessment of the situation is spot on. One man's sense of morality isn't worth the life of billions. I know this isn't a Federation or Starfleet attitude but Starfleet was having to make hard, realistic choices about how to fight the war and the losses Starfleet was taking.They didn't even have to make those decisions with the Borg.
No, no no. I have to stop you right at the start! What Sisko did, was definitely "good". If Sisko had not pulled the Romulans into the war, when he did, the Federation would have lost. The Romulans would have just been the next targets on the list of the Dominion. That would have cost MORE lives. From the Federation AS WELL as the Romulans! Please think before you say something. Also, Bashir had learned the hard way, that his predictions could fail at any moment. Pulling the Romulans into the war was their best chance, and he knew it. He also knew the consequences for the Romulans if the Federation lost the war.
This might be an idea for an analysis, how about if the war was fought by the TOS style federation. Not tech wise but as the thinking or mentality and see if it would make a difference. Thanks for the awesome videos
There was also some talk about Garrak sneaking aboard that Romulan ship, how he said no one would know that he was there I wonder if part of that gel was used to make some concoction that would mask him from sensors it only stands to reason because the bomb that Garrick supposedly made was also immune to detection
I always wanted to see an episode of DS9 where the Founder meets Luxwana Troi after the fall of Betazed. The Dominion taking hostages so to speak. Wow what an episode that would have been, no? I'd love to have seen luzwana tear into the female founder, and worst of all compare her to Odo and how good Odo was compared to the female changling. Hopefuully adding to the turning of the tide when the female changling was finally captured by Keira, Garak, and Odo. Softening the female changling into considering surrender and not a fight to the death of the Gem'Hadar.
Sisko may have compromised his self-respect, but Garrick had gained great deal of respect for Sisko in return. Just look at Garricks eyes throughout the episode. Almost desperate, as if trying to shake him awake "we're at war fool, start fighting!"
Yeah, plus the comparison between the Bashir plan to save lives by surrender is not directly comparable to the Sisko (read Garak) plan to deceive the Romulans to try and win to save lives. They're wildly different outcomes.
I have a speculative question about the Dominion war, what would have happened if there was a new player on the battlefield, suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere a powerful invader of unknown origin started to randomly attack both the Federation and Dominion ships, an enemy that has no interest in any form of surrender and is notably stronger than both sides individually unless they joined forces and maybe have a fighting chance in defeating this, but, however, could the Dominion & Federation work together against this threat or would there be too much anger and distrust between them for a Dominion/Federation alliance to work..?
Sisko loses all of his self respect... And finds that it doesn't bother him as much as he thought it should. That is honestly the best part of the whole affair.
Sisko "won't it be almost impossible to create a fake holographic meeting that the Romulans will actually buy?" Garak "Actually, acquiring the data rod was by far the hardest part. Creating the holorecording by comparison will be rather easy, barely an inconvenience" later Sisko "barely an inconvenience?" Garak "captain, I'd appreciate it if you would get ALL the way off my back about that"
The big unanswered question is in the long term _would this have really mattered because of the Founders virus?_ Only in the respect that the Romulan Empire might've been the dominant power afterwards [maybe - see variation on Section 31 plan* below] *_if_* they managed to sit out the War till the virus genocided the Founders. But they may have also been ambushed by the Dominion if the Dominion thought they already had victory near, and stuffed a initial defeat as they didn't take the initiative. Where it would've made a big difference is that the set of circumstances that allowed Bashir to "betray the Federation" would never have occurred and so the virus does kill the entire species. And then the White runs out and goodbye Dominion. It's just a question of can the Federation hold out long enough for that to happen, and what about afterwards with the Breen - they have the energy dampning weapon and they wouldn't allow a ship with it installed to be hijacked. * Section 31 should've secretly cured Odo if he came back to the Federation, after he had infected the Founders for two reasons. 1. It removes him in the eyes of everyone as a possible vector and thus Federation suspicion due to the timeframe, so a Dominion ally can be framed. 2. After the rest of the Founders die, he becomes the _head of the Dominion!_ The Federation effectively controls the Dominion and gets a fantastic power boost, as well as control of the Gamma Quadrant.
Hmm, I'm not sure about the logic behind some of your assertions/predictions, but I _do_ know that "genocided" isn't actually a word - not a _valid_ one, anyway!
@@anhedonianepiphany5588 And that's how Starfleet was able to get their hands on one, because they had a Changeling and some Cardassian operatives on their side as well as a desired prisoner (Kira), that allowed them to get onboard and steal a Jem'Hadar ship - it was a hole in Dominion security. A purely Breen force wouldn't have presented that opportunity, how do you conduct espionage on the Breen?
I can most definitely agree with Dax about the Romulans be partly to blame for some of those killed near the Federation - Romulan border; even if only in-directly. Why, I hear you ask? As long as minor incursions near a border doesn't post a threat to you, then why spend resources on responding; they're merely minor annoyances and could or should be ignored. This is a very typical way for the Romulans to act in the TNG era; as long as you're not threatened, just sit back and maybe manipulate the situation for your own benefit (like discretely causing two others to fight, then eventually have only one to deal with; not unlike SPECTRE in James Bond when they attempt to get the US and the USSR to fight, and eventually have only one weakened superpower left).
I think Garrak wanted to always kill the senator but not if the rare event that the senate thought the recording was legitimate. But he expected the Romulan to think it was fake
Hey guys, this is a supercut of my 3 part series. Sorry for any confusion.
Did Betazed ever been mentioned recovering from the war?
@@captainrgd1565 one possible advantage of antiquated defenses and no ships in position, the invasion might have been mostly bloodless. they might have recovered totally and quickly. i dont recall if they mentioned casualties or damage to batazed, but it would likely be minimal if it was a steam rolling, the dominion did want to control the alpha/beta quadrant, not burn it.
I believe Dabo girl could not press charges because she was not assaulted... it was Tolar being annoying at best, and Quark who decided to intervene and he was assaulted.
Finally a long video
the "Merry Christmas" part caught me off guard.
Garak never traded anything for the data rod. He probably has a stash of those rods in his quarters. He lied to Sisko saying he had a "contact" who demanded bio-mimetic gel in return for one and this was the only way they could get it because he needed the gel himself. Note Dr Bashir's complaint that bio-mimetic gel can be used to make "organic explosives" among other things. That's why Garak wanted it. He needed the gel to make a bomb that could be planted on the Romulan Senator's ship without it being detected. That's why the amount of gel was negotiable.
He probably used his prep time after the first discussion to get in touch with contacts within the Romulan Star Empire and find out the Senator's itinerary ahead of time, that's why he then had to kill them to cover up the obvious trail.
You know what's hilarious... I've seen this episode many times, and your interpretation still hadn't yet occurred to me. But I'll bet that's exactly what the writers intended to convey. Great catch!
Exactly this!
Wow this was a detail that flew over my head. Harakiri was in control the whole time. I wonder if anyone of his “contacts” even died or existed.
@@pokealex388 : Yet another great point, and also one I hadn't yet considered. lol I'm actually watching through the series again, presently at the end of season three. Once this episode comes back up, I'll be enjoying it in an entirely new way!
I believe that Garak didn't so much as manipulate Sisko, but rather guided him through Federation indoctrination and morality. Sisko didn't fall. He sacrificed himself to save the Alpha and Beta quadrants.
He had to grow up and, at least for himself, had to take responsibility. And he did, in secret, but still he did.
TheMan WhoLaughs Sisko is not a blind libtard, I know what blind libtards are like and he is not one. Such people believe that everyone else around them shares the same viewpoints that they do, not realizing that that is not the truth.
@TheMan WhoLaughs only an idiot would apply some asinine nonsense like that to a fictional sci fi show's character. You have to be not only profoundly stupid, but also intensely lacking in logic to say something like that
True that if Garak had disclosed what his real intentions (Assassination) were Sisko's do gooder fed attitude would have gotten in the way and the alpha/beta quadrant, the war and essentially the Federation would have been lost!
@@kurtuhlig2553 or someone that is genuinely uncomfortable about someone else around them having a fundamentally different viewpoint, they want a politically homogeneous culture. I am solidly conservative (but for sure not a cookie cutter stereotypical one) and I have some friends and relatives that definitely have democrat leanings or viewpoints on a few or many subjects but we simply don't bring up politics and we all get along just fine as if it doesn't exist, but I definitely have a few relatives that simply cannot help themselves and are genuinely uncomfortable even being in the same room as someone they do not agree with and will be deliberately spiteful with politics at every opportunity.
In the afterlife, Sun Tzu was asked, "Honorable Master, though your writings implore us to do so, why would an honorable ruler grant such great rewards to lying, wretched, uncouth, low-born spies?" Sun Tzu replied, "go check out that Garak character in DS9 - In the Pale Moonlight, and everything will be made clear..."
Sun Tzu wasn't a ruler. He was IN THEORY a general/military theorist.
@@williambruce7943 In the end all these things are just tools for a ruler to keep his power. You can not divert militrary form rulership, becuase it is the duty of any lord to learn the ways of war, because armed people will never listen to unarmed ones.
Garak would really like Sun Tzu and Machiavel, they are more like Cardassians than humans in their pragmatic ways to solve issues
@@williambruce7943 Umm, the entire book is written as advice for his ruler. He advocates that the ruler should pay his spies well. In fact a lot of the lore around The Art Of War was him having discourse with his ruler, supposedly King Helu of Wu. This was a common occurrence in the Warring States period for kings who wanted more power to personally interview top potential advisors and able men, whether intimately one on one for trusted people or in court for brand new people, to see if they want to either follow their advice or recruit them for a job. In this case, Sun was a trusted man in Wu.
So this is in that context as he advises the ruler and the ruler is asking, why, as a ruler, should I do this.
@@ricardobomber93 Pre-Dominion war Garak: In Machiavelli, he'd find a kindred spirit. Pre-Dominion war Garak: In Sun Tzu he'd find him "interesting".
Post-Dominion war Garak: Machiavellin...ok. Post-Dominion war Garak: Sun Tzu is the master.
The Dominion left DS9 alone (for the most part) probably due to their inability to understand how Sisko had managed to make literally thousands of their ships disappear while going through the wormhole. The proximity of the Wormhole to the station along with the Founder's complete lack of knowledge regarding "the Prophets" and what they were and were not capable of is almost certainly why the Dominion left DS9 alone after Sacrifice of Angels.
The Founders were if nothing else a race of beings that liked order and predictability and an "X-Factor" of that magnitude was likely fairly off putting to them in regards to a war of galactic proportions. The female Founder probably decided to leave DS9 alone until after forcing the rest of the Federation to surrender, at which point DS9 would have by default been included in that victory.
Plus a direct attack on DS9 would have risked harming Odo. I think the founders would have a avoided that until they were left with no other choice
@@christopherbrown6322 That's exactly my thoughts on this. I don't think it was that they couldn't take DS9, I think they chose not to, because Odo was there, and they didn't need it.
The Founders never really seemed that interested or concerned with the 'wormhole aliens'/'Prophets', which _is_ strange when you think about it. They did, however, have a vested interest in Odo's welfare, and I agree that he was their primary motivation for sparing DS9.
It was used as a meeting point too.
@@KSloyan The Dominion made a nonaggression pact with Bajor. That's why DS9 was left alone. IIRC, when the Cardassians asked about it, Weyoun said sth to the effect that maintaining the pact with Bajor would encourage other non-Federation species in the sector to make peace with the Dominion
The existence of section 31 puts this episode in a whole new light for me. If a star fleet captain can pull this, I have no doubt that section 31 is more "official" than they let on. The virtuous image of the federation is fake because like Sisko says, "it's easy to be a Saint in paradise."
Then he kills the families of terrorists.
Section 31 is modern trek BS... Roddenberry is spinning in his grave.
Agreed
Starfleet is somehow smart enough to trick Q into section 31 doesn't represent their core?
@@blackhawks81H given how terrible most of TOS and the first few seasons of TNG were under his creative control (and that ridiculous softcore film about the high school coach murdering girls - name escapes me), can't say I feel that badly for his perpetual revolutions.
Sisko was right to bring the romulans into the war in any way possible. In a fight to the death no holds are barred.
@Joseph Craig(neat thumbnail, btw!)-- while i understand why Sisko did what he did, it's just not worth it imho. My theory(and it's just a theory, so take it for the grain of salt it's worth to you) is that the Romulans were going to help the Federation anyway, they were just waiting long enough to have a better bargaining position. Sisko practically sold his soul to a pair of devils (Garrak and Quark respectfully) just so the Federation had an ally earlier than necessary. The rest of the season we watched as a good Starfleet Officer spiraled out of control and almost committed both Treason & Murder, all due to what he did here.
@@johnnysizemore5797 you seem to avoid the important question of necessary to who. Star Fleet should continue to suffer countless casualties because the Romulan's wanted to continue their favored game of realpolitik? The Romulans likely would have held off as long as possible so as to gain as dominant a position in the post war galaxy, which by all means they should. Lets not pretend that almost 80 years later D-Day is more important to us than Stalingrad for the simple fact that those were our boys laying down their lives instead of the Red Army. Just as a Russian history class will focus on the eastern front for the very same reason.
All that said, to my mind a false flag attack might as well be a formal invitation in Romulan politiks. As authoritarian is the Romulan Senate may be that does not mean they can wage war indiscriminately with out reason. I believe the Romulan's at the very least suspected that Star Fleet was behind the attack, if not flat out knew.
The Senator sent no word of his discovery, not even a contingency in the case of his death? I see a Romulan Senate quite pleased with the Self-Righteous Star Fleet getting their hands dirty as they would, seeing in them an ally finally willing to win the war, no matter the cost.
That on top of Cisco's previous claim that Star Fleet officers don't believe in the human soul (something he seems to grow out as the emissary but that is besides the point), without a higher power to derive his morality from, Star Fleet and his service to the Federation by necessity fill that void. His higher calling is his duty to Star Fleet, why wouldn't he sacrifice any part of himself to preserve it?
@Kitt Spiken(you are awesome! I actually like Star Trek morality debates, so honestly thank you for this! :D)-- the question becomes: how low is too low? As much as i like Sisko(his self-righteousness notwithstanding), he was willing to break the very Morals The Federation was founded on in order to save it. By doing what he did, he became the very villian he "fought" against in the attempted Command Coup. Was it the right move in the end? Yes, as it gave Starfleet time to come up with a better plan. Was it worth it to destory the soul of The Federation in order to do it? No, as Starfleet was never the same afterward. The End Never Justify The Means. Odo learned that the hard way, if you remember.....
Brief tanget: this is honestly one of my favorite seasons of DS9, as it shows that even The Federation has a Dark side and BOY is it Dark....
It is also possible the Romulans wouldn't have joined the war at all and simply wait as the powers smashed each other.
If the fed-klingons won
Both would be at a much weaker position and easier to manipulate.
Maybe try and break their alliance and make the klingons their puppet by starting another civil war/coup as they like doing, would the Romulans succeed will probably be up to debate.
The Federation might not be able to intervene because they might be struggling to hold themselves together or might not be willing to fight another war right after the dominion war.
And the Romulans might try and use the federation weaker position to try and break up the federation and might try to conquer Vulcan again.
If the Dominion-Cardassian-Breen alliance won.
The Romulans will try and work with the Cardassians as they did in the past.
And break up their alliance as I'm sure the Cardassians will probably break their alliance as they wouldn't want to be subjects to the dominion.
And probably try and gobble up the federation border because the federation will probably to weak to defend themselves at least in the short term and try make the klingons their puppets.
But what do you guys think?
@ Sergio Milho-- it's certainly a possibility that the Romulans would've just waited the war out and pounced on the survivors. The idea fits with both their SOP(pit two enemies against each other, hit the weakened winner before they recover) and political stance at the time.
Only problem i see with that idea are the Changelings themselves. Given what we, the audience & geeky fans, know of the Motis Operandi, they HAD to have had at least two-three of their own hidden amongst the Romulan Military and Senate egging that "Neutrality" on(wouldn'tve put it past 'em to have Breenak as one. Explain how he was "simply passing through"). No, they were gonna help the Federation regardless, just as soon in the War as they did.
Garak is by far my favourite character in Star Trek, he is a loose cannon. Never in the entire series are you 100% certain he is or is not still a spy for cardassia. Better yet, the moment Sisko comes to Garak with the plot, it was his mission, not Siskos. Sisko was played like a fiddle and still believed he was in charge. The moment he brought up the plan, I’m sure Garak referred to his pre made plan for this exact scenario and knew immediately how to get no less than exactly what he wanted. Beautiful writing. Favourite episode.
People like that are usually not loose cannons they tend to be the most regimented, logically even clinical.
@@FreelancerFreak This exactly. He is, when normal, anything but a loose cannon. Now we got to see a couple episodes with Garak kind of loses it and becomes imbalanced (when the go to the other Terak and find the super soldiers, when his implant goes crazy, and when he and his dad were captured by the Dominion with Worf, the breen, General Martok, and others), and a singular aspect of Garak that normally he has "sheathed" becomes prominent.
"This should be uploaded on Christmas Eve" Yes
I compare the Dominion's using Romulan territory to launch offenses against the UFP to the way the North Vietnamese and VC attacked U.S. forces using Cambodia and Laos as staging areas and egress points since the rules of engagement prevented the U.S from 'officially' entering those nations.
In my opinion this wasn't the Starfleet losing it's soul. It was Sisko coming to the realization that Idealism is getting good people killed, and forced the UFP to pull it's head out if it's ass. They didn't lose their soul, their eyes just finally opened.
The threat against Tolar was moot...Garak confirms in the end conversation at the tailor shop that he is already dead. This is a fascinating dissection of two men in different realities, Garak born to the head of the Obsidian order who once told Bashir that telling the truth was a lazy result of not being able to tell a really good lie, and Sisko who is living in the delusion that as a Starfleet officer he is above sacrificing his morals to get the job done. The finest writing of all the Star Trek mythos.
I never bought the negative thoughts on Pale Moonlight. The federation had played fair and were loosing - bady. And they knew (correctly) that they would have to accept the Founders as Gods and owners of all or they would be wiped out. Morals are nice but you know what the first moral law says “Don’t go extinct” The federation had found other powers that had gone extinct and now given a choice they decided is life was worth a necessary evil. They are not the first to make that choice and in rl people have to do it to. Life sucks like that
thank you
It is not evil to preserve your people.
Garak and Disko saved a lot of lives on both sides. It was their Fat man and Little Boy moment.
I always assumed Garak needed the gel to make the organic explosives Bashir talked about. I think he already had the data rod, but that couldn't help him sneak explosives onto the senator's shuttle. He needed the gel to make the explosives. He needed Sisko to get the gel. I want a video on the gel. Sounds like some handy stuff!
What I always took from Bashir's response to the situation at the beginning of the episode was it basically being an, "I told you so." to Sisko, but through the filter of rage and grief because of current events.
Yes that was a brilliant episode, extremaly well written and executed - it was amazing indeed. And yes evolution of the Sisko in that episode was just so "natural" bit by bit he was stepping ever closer into the darkness.
He was fighting for humanity and if Star Fleet lost the war then the Dominion would have punished humanity. There are examples of the Dominion doing that.
" To the Victor go the spoils" and "Woe to the vanquished". These statements should explain everything. In war, you're either the victor or the vanquished. Which would you choose?
I'm sure you've heard this before, but it's official: When I'm writing a Star Trek series, I want you on as a script consultant.
By LoreReloaded's logic, the British should have just surrendered to the Nazis in 1940 when it looked almost assured that the Third Reich would win, before the Soviet Union and the United States came into the war. Because immediate surrender to the Third Reich would have saved lives, right? This is idiotic. This episode is a perfect example that it's impossible to fight a "clean" war in which you make no moral compromises, just as in WW2 the British/US sometimes had to let their own soldiers die rather than providing forewarning of Nazi attack and thus risking the Third Reich realise they'd cracked the Ultra code. Similarly, when the Nazis turned their aircraft from attacks on British fighter bases to targeting British civilians, it was a reprieve that ultimately won the Battle of Britain, even though it meant accepting civilian deaths rather than further damage to Fighter Command bases, pilots and aircraft.
nothing says life long friend when they are willing to commit a war crime or two for you
I don’t get why people think there is some morality when it comes to war. Especially the fact the Dominion is waging a full total war on the Federation. The Federation which fights a war based on accords and no doubt conventions and rules. The federation is fighting with its hands tied behind its back and Sisko had to be the devil and do what was necessary to fight the Dominion meanwhile the federation lives in paradise.
Agreed!! Victory at any cost!!
Total war is fought using a preemption/reaction escalation system the way to win is to find out your opponent's next move, ideally before it happens, and counter it, generally you stick as close to your nation's moral compass as you can, but in the end effective countermeasures are more important that any code of conduct. This is why Total Wars are so horriffic, opponents are constantly reacting to eachother, often one-upping the recieved damage.
Yeah, the best way to fight a war against an immoral enemy is to become them.
Pointless fighting against something if you're no better than they are...
@@jolan_tru ...What?
@@jolan_tru If that was some kind of sarcasm, it should probably be rephrased, as that sounds mor like a typo than anything sarcastic, nevermind factual.
"I can live with it. I CAN live , with it." - Captain Benjamin Sisco.
6:26 DS9 can be armed to the teeth - but if the Dominion goes attack Betazed instead - DS9 matters as much as the Maginot line.
Without the wormhole it's an irrelevant position. The Dominion can't use the hole so what take it?
@@LanMandragon1720
Not to mention they lost an overwhelming force to the wormhole with no explanation.
Better to avoid the Bermuda Triangle than send your fleet into it over and over again in the middle of a fight you are currently winning regardless.
@@LanMandragon1720 Because they can use the wormhole to send communications through, even if the Prophets wont allow their ships to cross.
This episode was my absolute favorite from DS9 possibly of all Star Trek episodes. Aside from being so well written and produced, it finally shined the light of reality on the morally superior, rainbows and unicorns mentality of the Federation. No matter how virtuous, noble and enlightened a person or nation is, there is always the possibility of facing an enemy hell bent on your destruction that will turn those perceived strengths into the very weapons used to destroy you.
One thing I don;t think you touched upon was the moral cop out Sisko or anyone else in the Federation could use to assuage their guilt of tricking the Romulans into joining the war. Having dispatched of the Federation & Klingon Empire, the Romulans would have been the next target of the Dominion. Only now, instead of facing The Dominion with still-powerful allies, the Romulans would have faced them alone, with the Dominion having the additional resources of the newly conquered alliance territories, plus a still loyal Cardassia and now unfettered resources from the Gamma quadrant.
Also, -2 for using 'irregardless' twice. ;-)
Sisko did point that out in the episode
Its like that line in mass effect. "Ask the ashes of a tillion dead if honor matters, their silence is their answer" when faced with extermination there isnt a wall they wont climb, no line they wont cross.
Great Analysis! I also believe that Garak used the Gel to make the bomb. Explosives is one of the things Bashir told Sisko the gel could be used for. This is one of your best analysis of the best episode of Trek to date.
I think a big part of this stems from the fact that Star Trek and Next Gen are vacuums and an impossible fantasy. The Enterprise is viewed as the best and brightest of the Starfleet, and what we should strive for. And yet outside of the Enterprise we see a lot of corruption and shadow games. This implies that the Enterprise is not the ideal, but instead the place where the idealistic and the people you want for First Contact are placed. The rest of Starfleet are more along the lines of Deep Space Nine, where they aspire to follow certain codes of conduct but the reality of the Galaxy is that this is not always possible. The Borg are not an anomaly and even their encounters with the Klingons and the Romulans are careful maneuvers of Chess or Go...and that is only in one specific ship and it's infamous name and captains.
Arguably even Bashir shows the problems of that, Bashir is introduced in The Next Gen as morally grey, but you can argue that his time among idealists has rubbed off on him, and in Deep Space 9 he caries that view with him through his life, while the rest of Starfleet and the Alpha Quadrant are more jaded. You also see this in reverse with the Maquis, and Eddington who was a former member of Starfleet who defected.
The crew of the USS Enterprise, so Star Trek and The Next Gen should not be the standard to which you hold morals. They are the idealistic and accordingly the naive and easily manipulated with the right touch. Their standard of living is only capable on their ship, not by Starfleet as a whole, and by the goings on in the two shows, not even then. Picard is a a diplomat, and able to keep things at the status quo. But he is not able or willing to sacrifice his morals if the circumstances demand it.
A good man standing his ground while the world around him burns can only say he took his morals with him to his grave. Not that he did everything in his power to stop it. And that is Picard. He is a good man, and he is a moralistic man. But he is not a realistic man and is incapable of making decisions that require him to compromise, he would rather die and see other people die with him, than bend. And that is not someone you want in command of anything more than a ship.
Totally agreed that's why i absolutely despise the way they wrote Picard and TNG
You have summed up everything superbly, and with lots of very quotable text, too.
All's fair in love and war.
For me, this is one of the defining episodes of DS9. Sisko realises, with Garak's help, that he can't play by the rules and win if the opponent won't abide by the same rules.
But Sisko more than realises as well, the person you destroy with a lie can destroy you with the truth.
In any clash of civilizations, the choice is submit to alien domination or to fight and maybe to die. To quote General John Stark in a letter he wrote in 1809 “Live free or die; death is not the worst of evils.” Life under the subjection of the Dominion would be worse than death.
I'm going to have to disagree with you. As long you're still alive, even subjugated, there's a good chance of emerging from that subjugation again at some point, whether through the moral growth of the captor power or by losing its power to control directly, whether in war or by disease etc etc. As long as you're still in the game, there's always a chance to emerge victorious.
Those values are worthless when losing a war for survival. The very idea of a limited war is insane for the defending side. If I'm attacked by someone with a knife then it's crazy for me to pull a knife to defend myself if I'm also carrying a firearm. If you attack first then you're responsible for preparing for all possible responses.
In my own personal theory. Garak all ready had the rod as a back up before he left Cardassia, Before he leaves with Worf in the 2 part episode By Inferno's Light he tells Bashier where a very important data rod is located in his quarters then told him to eat it jokingly. Knowing Garak this is a half truth.
Of course Garak already had this plan when Sisko asked him the first time. And while I agree with you that dragging more people into the conflict isn't "good", please remember that ethics of War are different than those of Peacetime.
Nonsense. The Ethics don't change. Only the level of honesty we have about who we really are, and who we always were. The shadow is every bit as real as the light that defines it and the shape that casts it.
@@Eleolius Other than an unfortunate tendency to wax metaphorical toward the end - _well said!_ In tumultuous times such as war, people's long established facades can suddenly fall away, often revealing dark and selfish mindsets. Sadly, there are fewer _truly_ ethical individuals in our world than most of us would like to accept.
You do realize everything you are claiming rests on the absured idea that human-derived ethics are somehow set in stone and invariable, right?
@@anhedonianepiphany5588 Yes and no. It should be like that, but I have to tell you I learned a subject called "War Ethic" from professor of Ethics that hates War. And I don't blame her. We should strive to be better, but we often let our view to be lax. For example you can't force someone to be a hero or for martyrdom except during the War. And even then it isn't very nice thing to do. But sometimes you have no other choice.
And as Kyle Heins put it below your comment - our ethics do not have to be universal. Not so long ago some American tried to tell me how 2nd Amendment is a natural law and applies everywhere regardless of Jurisdiction, because it only codified what is our given law. If we cannot accept differences even within human race, than we will have trouble when we meet aliens. And no, I do not condone everything that Garak did. But perhaps we should judge it after we look from every perspective?
@@jannegrey Uh, unfortunately you have addressed the wrong commentator, as nothing you've just written actually relates to my post. It seems that you've conflated _my_ comment and the post immediately above mine. It's also pretty obvious that most participants are using the word 'ethics' _very_ loosely, when what they really mean is _personal morality._ Anyway, I'll leave you to your delusions of grandeur.
I always found the weirdest part of "Statistical Probabilities" is that Romulan entry into the war is never discussed. A coup on Cardassia, yes, but no Romulan involvement. I suppose it could have been included in the blanket "all possibilities" statement, but it's huge enough that it should have had its own mention.
Federation Founding race discussion
Tellarites: We have been arguing for this type of action for some time. Now you see our point of view.
Vulcans: We lobbied to have Control AI be responsible for the fleet a few years back so our logic may be flawed with the big decisions.
Andorians: All right! The Dominion pushed the pink skins out on the thin ice! Now the real war begins!
Humans: Man they took our hedonistic pleasure planet away! Burn them all!
Betazed is not Risa, you pleb.
@@trazyntheinfinite9895 If the Dominion had conquered Risa, even the Ferengi probably would've turned against them. :P
@@trazyntheinfinite9895 Betezed is more important.... telepaths are vital
Aurora Uplinks
Is that a subtle jab at how useless counselor Troy is?
@@allthenewsordeath5772 it wasn't meant to be I just meant the federation thrives on communication and goodwill and betrayed seems to very much aboutgoodwill and understanding throughcommunication... as although I found her lack of reading minds sad when her mother could :/
She makes do with emotional reading and it's good commentary on how we sllstruggle to understand each other though
Starfleet may have lost its soul, but in return got something for more valuable. A brain!
In The Pale Moonlight is a masterpiece. Thank goodness Gene Roddenberry kicked the bucket when he did. Had be been alive he never would have allowed such a storyline.
I've already seen all these episodes but I gave you a full watch and like cause, you know, TH-cam stuff. Its literally the least I could do for a creator I enjoy so much.
No matter what, its the one episode you never get tired of watching.
That one and The Wire
Even I actually met Garak somehow in an
alternate dimension where
Trek was truly taking place and
I knew that it was really him and
ALL
he said was,
“I am Garak”...
I STILL wouldn’t believe him.
Because it wouldn't be true.
He is Elim.
Your willingness to deep dive into the “what ifs” and taking out cannon and thinking through what would make more sense to have happened. Your ability to go into the rabbit holes is so refreshing
Wars are never clean. Interesting video.
A great analysis, but made from the perspective of a bureaucrat sitting in a comfortable luxury office. The realities of war and frontline can never be understood by idealists.
As Section 31’s Sloan told Bashir, ‘ you need men like us to protect men like you’.
“Ideals are peaceful. History is violent.” - War Daddy
Garak was a legend on DS9. He literally saved the Federation and the Alpha quadrant from the Dominion with this one stroke. Sisko should have been in a rush to go and high 5 him, not beat the crap out of him when he got the news that the shuttle carrying Vreenak was destroyed IMO. How did he not see the tactical advantage of this happening in the first place anyway?
Thought provoking and worthwhile essay.
Some probably annoying notes:
“Irregardless” isn’t a word…you probably wanted “regardless” or “irrespective”. (03:19)
I may have misunderstood your reasoning, but you argue that the orchestration of Romulus’ entry into the war wasn’t “good” or “virtuous” 3:18 because it would necessarily lead to the deaths of many thousands of Romulans. That relies on two assumptions - the Romulans would never have had to fight a war against the Dominion, and more lives in total would be lost because of Romulan participation. The first is possible, though as Sisko argued, it seems unlikely the Founders would have tolerated a powerful independent Romulan Empire once they had conquered the Federation. The second is far, far less likely. While Romulans wouldn’t have perished, far more people - of a huge variety of species - would have died without Romulan participation. Empires aren’t often characterized by kindness and care.
You say that, during his initial conversation with Sisko, Grathon Tolar “…shows himself to be a little bit of a pervert.” (10:26) Um, how, exactly? He later does prove to be a drunkard with a penchant for violence, but “pervert”?
You attack Sisko’s moral fiber, saying he “…doesn’t hear…” his conscience “…a lot…”. That’s an incredible claim. Sisko at one point makes the argument anchored in moral duty, asking himself how he could indulge in the finer points of morality - preserve his self-image - at the expense of uncountable numbers of victims of the war. That is someone putting the lives of others before his own needs, which, while self-evidently precarious, is nonetheless a very moral, very noble decision.
I never understood why Sisko threatens Tolar AFTER the fabricated meeting has already been burned into the datarod. What was the point?
“…even at the cost of all of its values that it once held…” (18:23) Starfleet wasn’t aiming at “preserving itself” and nowhere in the Federation Charter does it restrict allowable actions when the only alternative is to be overrun and conquered. True, most people and entities see themselves as justified and righteous no matter their actions. And you may wish to argue that self-determination, mutuality, human (and all other participating species) flourishing, and peace are all biased concepts without inherent virtue - if you insist. But an aggressive empire with a massive military and an absolutist, immortal elite bent on violently destroying much of what you hold dear - self-determination, peace, etc., warrants, and even demands, every defense.
This episode is written so well, it ascends it’s franchise.
Let's see:
The federation and the klingon empire were losing the war. Millions were already dead, billions to come. The only chance was with the romulans.
And still: the discussion is about the morality of one man? Really?
Absolute adherence to the the cause or excommunication.
Says more about the speaker than the subject.
Slight nit-pick in an otherwise wonderful analysis - the word is "regardless". "Irregardless" means the opposite of the way you're using it.
True, except 'irregardless' actually means nothing at all - _it's not a real word!_
Worse is using "infer" when he meant the opposite, "imply".
@@anhedonianepiphany5588 It... it's not? MY WHOLE LIFE HAS BEEN A LIE!!!
Anhedonian Epiphany is correct, irregardless isn't the opposite of regardless (that would be regarding) - it's not a real word, though in some sense it's become so by default simply because so many people misuse it. If you're itching to use something with *ir* in it, go with irrespective.
@@CanuckGod my question for people when they use the word is always "What does regardless mean...What does Irregardless mean". I swear every time it clicks in their head and they're like "well fuck"
point of order, Sisko wasn't stereotyping the Romulans, only their government.
Sisko did what Picard could not have done. Which is why Sisko was the superior captain.
“Needs must when the Devil drives…”
My theory is Bashir actually does join Section 31 after Inquisition, and is helping Captain Sisko at the behest of Garak and Section 31.
Your comment about Bashir's records about the bio gel staying intact makes me wonder how involved Section 31 was in this episode.... they have manipulated lesser events for the good of the Federation, so why wouldn't they be involved in this event?
This is some of your best work interestingly accomplished on my favorite episode in all of trek.
I really like the bomb idea for the biomimetic gel. Given what's described, I can think of a couple of ways it could be used (narratively) as an explosive:
1: Garak gets it on to the ship in an inert state, a control/fuse device programs it to convert to an organic explosive (eg. omatol, what's in a diesel bomb), shuttle goes boom. Even with the explosives we have today 80 kilos on the inside of the shuttle would make one heck of a bang.
2: Garak uses the gel to make a hard/impossible to trace explosive, sneaks it on to the shuttle. Shuttle goes bang.
3: Garak uses the gel to make something that makes the ship go bang by itself, say by corroding a plasma conduit, shorting out a control circuit etc.
From a storytelling perspective, there's all manner of angles you could use.
This is my favorite Star Trek episode ever. I have seen it at least 15 to 20 times.
Do you remember how Statistical Probabilities ended though?
"What do you make of that, Jack? Why didn't you anticipate that? Why didn't you factor _her_ into your equation? Because you thought you knew everything... but you didn't even know what was gonna happen in this room. One person derailed your plans. One person changed the course of history. Now, I don't know about you... but that makes me think... that maybe... just maybe... things might not turn out the way we thought."
You've gotta take the _whole_ episode into account, including the part when Bashir changed his mind about how trustworthy those predictions actually were if one tiny variable could completely nullify the whole supposedly brilliant plan.
My absolutely favorite episode :D
Love, absolutely love, this episode.
The writers themselves seem to forget that Earth's neighbourhood is both the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Both in Voyager and DS9 they only say "Alpha Quadrant".
Earth is the divide between alpha and beta, right?
One of my favourate star trek episodes of all time and my favourate DS9 episode. Absolutely brilliant storytelling..
In this particular case, bending the knee to save lives would not be the moral decision. The Founders had already been shown that had genetically engineered their subject species to permanents slaves.
First for Sisko did nothing wrong
Faking evidence is super easy, barely an inconvenience. -Garrick
Oh Really? -Sisko
Yeah, it’ll just cost the lives of all my contacts, you’ll meet a future dead man and ultimately lie to a romulan senator I’ll later assassinate. -Garrick
Boy this sounds a bit more inconvenient than you initially led on. -Sisko
I’m going to need you in the Federation to get all the way off my back on this sir. -Garrick
Hang on Benjamin, let me get off that thing first. -Jadzia
Damnit old ma- Sisko
Okay I’m going to stop you right there Captain do you think Bashir’s the only one chasing after this bone on this station? I’m not exactly batting 100 on space tinder in this sector.
I love it when the Romulan said "It's a faaakkkkeeee!" without yelling at Sisko. The way the line was delivered was great
Well, Sisko and Garak beat the Romulans in their own game, they literally outsmarted the master of lies and secrets and that is no easy task. It can be argued that only worked because the Tal Shiar was críppled and with more internal Struggles than ever
DS9 would require a huge amount of resources to take. In the first part of the war it took out 50 ships before falling. So I don't find it that unbelievable. It's not that uncommon to in war to be deep into enemy territory one one front, but have made no progress on another.
Excellent analysis and awesome insight into the writers as well as the characters. Ultimately, Garak wasnthe one of the keys that gave the federation a fighting chance at victory.
I think the Senator was the one Tain referred to on his deathbed and Garak told him was dead. Vreenaks death was on Garaks todo list.
The Gel was definitely used in the bomb, the Tal Shiar would easily detect any conventional explosive and because of its scarcity and restrictive use, they would never suspect its use in an explosive.
In beta cannon the Tal Shiar had figured out what really happened right away. It just suited them to go along with it.
Garak either stole the optilythic data crystal during the occupation or had the means to manufacture one from scratch at his disposla hidden on the station. No one that resoruceful would not have option to get the materials and instruments of his trade readily.
In the pale moonlight is without a doubt, one of the best episodes of trek, even to look back in hindsight, and now that we've had 20+ years to digest the dominion war, my thoughts on the finale of DS9 are as follows, the final battle with Dukat goes ahead as shown, as Sisco falls into the flames in the cave, he has another vision, the Prophets tell him his journey is not over, ie: Bajor becomes a full member state of the Federation, so the prophets send him back to his shuttle completely unharmed, Sisco sits in the cockpit contemplating everything and returns to the station, a few days later everything on the station is back to normal, Sisco is looking over something when Starfleet Security arrive and arrest him on war crimes, Bashir's report went back to Starfleet Medical, they saw it and investigated Sisco, and the very last scene of Star Trek Deep Space 9, would be Captain Sisco led away from his office, under arrest facing charges and probable court martial, Kira takes command, sits in Siscos office solemnly holding his baseball wondering to herself if hell ever return. The end
Ummm NAAAAA
Best Trek episode all time.
CAPTAIN SISKO MOST UNDERRATED CAPTAIN. HE knew what he had to do and did it it's that simple. DS9 by far the best of the series.
I love when Garak says: "You knew I was capable of doing those things". I'm sure he was referring back to the Clint Eastwood era.
It is far easier to argue the ethics of what should have been done, writing the history as the victor. Than it is to argue what should have been done being occupied as the defeated.
this was entertaining as hell :) subscribed
This was so fun....... I loved In The Pale Moonlight !!!!
Great Jack Napier quote. Have you ever danced with the devil by the pale 🎑 light? Just a little something I ask all my prey.
If Sisko didn't do this then they are dead and morality might be moot.
If there's an afterlife then they might be hard questions.
The prophets might be waiting for him.
Considering I just watched and commented on the separate (and now redundant) parts of this video, I thought I would make a super cut of my own.
Comparing Sisco in this episode and Statistical Probability is apples and oranges. Compromising the principles of your civilization and submitting to outside domination is not the same as compromising your personal principles (informed as they are by your service to your civilization and station) to uphold those principles for your civilization at large . This is existential war. This is not Cardassian subterfuge, Romulan realpolitik, or Klingon border conflict. This is all of the above with the explicit aim to end Federation civilization as we know it. Just because the founders have the capacity to negotiate, does not mean they are any less of an existential threat than the Borg.
4 Star General Curtis Lemay put it thusly: "I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.. Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspect of what he is doing, but all war is Immoral and if you let that bother you, you're not a good soldier."
I don't mean to engage in war crime apologetics, but to equate absolute submission and unequivocal surrender to immoral actions of a General in a hot war is ludicrous. Curtis Lemay has some pretty gnarly quotes on the subject (how many of them are kayfabe as deterrent we may never know), but the fact remains that holding yourself to a higher rules of engagement is a perfect way to lose a war with your head held high.
Considering all it cost Cisco here (if we believe Garak) was some Cardassian Spooks, a counterfeiter/uncharged sex offender, and a Romulan Senator plus his detail, I'd say that was pretty damn cheap.
"Irregardless" lul.
Though seriously, a fair and accurate analysis of the Romulan mindset and realpolitik. Though you seem to abandon the thought inches from the finish line. What makes you so certain that the Romulan govt. did not suspect the assassination of their senator by the Star Fleet and extension the Federation? The civilization at the center of the Federation is Humanity and as much as Star Trek likes to pretend our past bears no connection to where we stand in the 24th century, the Romulan's are too old a civilization to think a few hundred years could bring about such radical change.
Humanity will persevere, by any means necessary.
I agree with your assessment that the Romulan always planned on entering the conflict on the Federation's side, but it was up to the Federation to show how committed they were to this conflict. The Romulan's hold their now centuries long adversary in contempt, but not simultaneously infallible and incompetent. The Federation is not Infallible in upholding its morals (that the Romulan's view as a facade), and is not so incompetent that they would be destroyed rather than compromise.
We're both cramming writing between the lines, but the Romulan's just so happened to lend their cloaking device to the ship that Cisco commands, inserting a liason into his crew. They would have already known his service record, have impressions of his character, I have no doubt that he would be a person of interest for the Romulan High Command.
Garak infiltrated Romulan society as a Gardener, Romulan's surely had spies in deeper covers than the Cardassian upstarts. Given that Bashir had his pick of where to serve, assuming other officers had the same privilege, no doubt Romulus has spies in Star Fleet on board Deep Space Nine. And after all the information their agents had undoubtedly already gathered, what better way to spy on Cisco further than with an invitation?
Vreenak was insufferably smug in every meeting he had with the alliance, a sentiment undoubtedly held by the entire Romulan Senate. The Federations diplomacy was failing them, as the Romulan's ALWAYS knew it would. They knew our history and what humanity was capable of and they knew that the longer they waited the better their position would be. They had tremendous opportunity before them.
They waited for the Federation's desperation to cause the mask to slip, for the Federation to be forced to sink to their level. The longer the Federation put their abstract principals before the tangible lives of their crewman and ships the better the Romulan position would be in the post war galaxy.
On top of that, as a Romulan I would have no interest in allying myself with the Federation UNTIL the mask slipped because obviously they are not ready to do what is necessary to win this conflict and would fight me every step of the way on plans they found "immoral." Better to hold out until we are all willing to acknowledge the stakes.
I am not claiming that Senator Vreenak went to the meeting, where he accused Cisco knowing he would be made a martyr but claiming that the Romulan's would never even consider Star Fleet could act as they would is silly. I'm sure it brought them no small amount of pleasure to see the self righteous Federation stoop to their level down in the mud.
We both agree the Romulan's would have sided with the Federation eventually. They know little of the dominion, most of it bad. The enemy you know is always preferable to the enemy you don't. They know the Federation would never act against them with open hostility, they had no such guarantee that the Dominion would treat them fairly once the Federation had been neutralized.
Perhaps after the Romulan Senate met to discuss Star Fleet's failed attempt at subterfuge, the compromise would have been enough for them. All parties knew that such a meeting had taken place, so the Federation gave them falsified evidence and they caught them in their lie. No reason to embarrass your new ally when they've given you the excuse you needed to join the was as you intended, the evidence to rally your populace behind, and a splendid bit of leverage as the cherry on top.
But with the assassination of Senator Vreenak, the only evidence the Romulan's hold against the Federation's alliance is the word of Senator Vreenak.
Of course he sent some sort of advanced notice, or had contingencies in place in case of his death. He was flying through an active war zone leaving a key base of operations of an active belligerent. Maybe the Federation wouldn't be his first suspect.
Maybe.
But he is still a Romulan, a high ranking official at that, he would know who had the most to gain from his death; The Federation, Star Fleet and Captain Benjamin Cisco.
I would like to give him credit, knowing the Federation was responsible for his death in whatever contingency recording he had made. That should that come to pass, he had clearly underestimated their will, and the Federation was finally ready to do what was necessary to win.
I prefer that to the unnamed Senators putting it together, only because Vreenak's a key player in the story already, but him putting it together on his own or the Senate in the aftermath doesn't change the conclusion:
The Romulan Senate accepted the false flag as their formal invitation to join the Dominion War, offering the Federation their respect, knowing it made their skin crawl.
"And if your conscience is bothering you, you can soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan Senator, one criminal... um, four Romulan security guards, I think. Maybe a shuttle pilot. And a navigator. Oh, all my contacts on Cardassia too. And, you know, your self-respect."
Lol.
Given what comes out about Garak's history though, I half-suspect he was lying about his contacts on Cardassia.
I strongly believe Garek was lying about his contacts. He had this planned from the beginning and knew there was no way to obtain any actual Cardassian/dominion documents. He knew he'd have to forge evidence, but also knew Sisko wouldn't want to do that if there was any other option. So he lies about his contacts to push Sisko over the edge and make him realise the neccesity of the situation.
Irregardless? IRREGARDLESS!
🤣
Garak did not have anyone left to talk to on Cardassia, the fact that he had to outsource to get that data rod is a good indication of that. I've actually wondered if Quark supplied him with that rod and something else was going on with that biomimetic gel.
Imagine this dude calling someone ELSE self righteous. Self awareness much?
Garak's assessment of the situation is spot on. One man's sense of morality isn't worth the life of billions. I know this isn't a Federation or Starfleet attitude but Starfleet was having to make hard, realistic choices about how to fight the war and the losses Starfleet was taking.They didn't even have to make those decisions with the Borg.
No, no no. I have to stop you right at the start! What Sisko did, was definitely "good".
If Sisko had not pulled the Romulans into the war, when he did, the Federation would have lost.
The Romulans would have just been the next targets on the list of the Dominion.
That would have cost MORE lives. From the Federation AS WELL as the Romulans!
Please think before you say something.
Also, Bashir had learned the hard way, that his predictions could fail at any moment.
Pulling the Romulans into the war was their best chance, and he knew it. He also knew the consequences for the Romulans if the Federation lost the war.
Merry Christmas, Lore
This might be an idea for an analysis, how about if the war was fought by the TOS style federation. Not tech wise but as the thinking or mentality and see if it would make a difference. Thanks for the awesome videos
It's Starfleet struggling to shed its Golden Age legacy. Slowly, agonizingly, clumsily.
Will we get more videos like this? I liked the format. Makes the whole thing easier to watch if it's just one video.
There was also some talk about Garrak sneaking aboard that Romulan ship, how he said no one would know that he was there I wonder if part of that gel was used to make some concoction that would mask him from sensors it only stands to reason because the bomb that Garrick supposedly made was also immune to detection
I always wanted to see an episode of DS9 where the Founder meets Luxwana Troi after the fall of Betazed. The Dominion taking hostages so to speak. Wow what an episode that would have been, no? I'd love to have seen luzwana tear into the female founder, and worst of all compare her to Odo and how good Odo was compared to the female changling. Hopefuully adding to the turning of the tide when the female changling was finally captured by Keira, Garak, and Odo. Softening the female changling into considering surrender and not a fight to the death of the Gem'Hadar.
I think it's far more likely she's just order the Jem Hadar to kill her.
Starfleet retained their soul by what Benjamin Sisko did if not then Starfleet would have surely lost their soul and the war!
Sisko may have compromised his self-respect, but Garrick had gained great deal of respect for Sisko in return. Just look at Garricks eyes throughout the episode. Almost desperate, as if trying to shake him awake "we're at war fool, start fighting!"
Bashir and the the other genetically enhance group were proven wrong as that episode showed not everything could be predicted.
Yeah, plus the comparison between the Bashir plan to save lives by surrender is not directly comparable to the Sisko (read Garak) plan to deceive the Romulans to try and win to save lives. They're wildly different outcomes.
They make their predictions on logic and data but don’t include any subterfuge
I have a speculative question about the Dominion war, what would have happened if there was a new player on the battlefield, suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere a powerful invader of unknown origin started to randomly attack both the Federation and Dominion ships, an enemy that has no interest in any form of surrender and is notably stronger than both sides individually unless they joined forces and maybe have a fighting chance in defeating this, but, however, could the Dominion & Federation work together against this threat or would there be too much anger and distrust between them for a Dominion/Federation alliance to work..?
@Nom Anor no worse...
Sisko loses all of his self respect... And finds that it doesn't bother him as much as he thought it should.
That is honestly the best part of the whole affair.
Sisko "won't it be almost impossible to create a fake holographic meeting that the Romulans will actually buy?"
Garak "Actually, acquiring the data rod was by far the hardest part. Creating the holorecording by comparison will be rather easy, barely an inconvenience"
later
Sisko "barely an inconvenience?"
Garak "captain, I'd appreciate it if you would get ALL the way off my back about that"
Love these 👍
The big unanswered question is in the long term _would this have really mattered because of the Founders virus?_
Only in the respect that the Romulan Empire might've been the dominant power afterwards [maybe - see variation on Section 31 plan* below] *_if_* they managed to sit out the War till the virus genocided the Founders. But they may have also been ambushed by the Dominion if the Dominion thought they already had victory near, and stuffed a initial defeat as they didn't take the initiative.
Where it would've made a big difference is that the set of circumstances that allowed Bashir to "betray the Federation" would never have occurred and so the virus does kill the entire species. And then the White runs out and goodbye Dominion.
It's just a question of can the Federation hold out long enough for that to happen, and what about afterwards with the Breen - they have the energy dampning weapon and they wouldn't allow a ship with it installed to be hijacked.
* Section 31 should've secretly cured Odo if he came back to the Federation, after he had infected the Founders for two reasons.
1. It removes him in the eyes of everyone as a possible vector and thus Federation suspicion due to the timeframe, so a Dominion ally can be framed.
2. After the rest of the Founders die, he becomes the _head of the Dominion!_ The Federation effectively controls the Dominion and gets a fantastic power boost, as well as control of the Gamma Quadrant.
Hmm, I'm not sure about the logic behind some of your assertions/predictions, but I _do_ know that "genocided" isn't actually a word - not a _valid_ one, anyway!
Additionally, the Breen weapons were also installed on Jem'Hadar craft, as is mentioned by the female changeling.
@@anhedonianepiphany5588 And that's how Starfleet was able to get their hands on one, because they had a Changeling and some Cardassian operatives on their side as well as a desired prisoner (Kira), that allowed them to get onboard and steal a Jem'Hadar ship - it was a hole in Dominion security.
A purely Breen force wouldn't have presented that opportunity, how do you conduct espionage on the Breen?
I can most definitely agree with Dax about the Romulans be partly to blame for some of those killed near the Federation - Romulan border; even if only in-directly. Why, I hear you ask? As long as minor incursions near a border doesn't post a threat to you, then why spend resources on responding; they're merely minor annoyances and could or should be ignored. This is a very typical way for the Romulans to act in the TNG era; as long as you're not threatened, just sit back and maybe manipulate the situation for your own benefit (like discretely causing two others to fight, then eventually have only one to deal with; not unlike SPECTRE in James Bond when they attempt to get the US and the USSR to fight, and eventually have only one weakened superpower left).
Garak is quite the beloved DS9 character, even though he is something of a monster.
I loved this episode, Sisko was bad ass. Did what he had to do not that he was pleased about it. And Garak was legendary.
I think Garrak wanted to always kill the senator but not if the rare event that the senate thought the recording was legitimate. But he expected the Romulan to think it was fake