Justice is Silent: Cassandra Caintrospective, Part 1-1: No Man's Land - Atop the Fourth Wall
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ส.ค. 2024
- This episode was split in half. Watch the rest here: • Justice is Silent: Cas...
Welcome to Atop the Fourth Wall, where bad comics burn. In this episode, we begin a retrospective of the character Cassandra Cain!
atopthefourthwa...
Originally released June 12th, 2019.
ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION: The Cassandra Caintrospective begins with No Man's Land and the first half of her solo series!
#cassandracain #DCcomics #batgirl
"It's kind of hilarious how his master plan- the ENDGAME of No Man's Land- is basically just a real estate scheme."
Luthor channeling his inner Hackman then.
Jonathan Campbell "Otisburg?!"
Jonathan Campbell I was thinking more like Trump
I was just about to make a similar comment when I saw yours. Kudos.
I think he really did all this JUST to spite his longtime enemy Superman, who can't do anything about it since what he's doing right now is legal. His ultimate "fuck you!" to the supposed man of steel, as his eventual term makes him untouchable lest Superman damages his rep in the eyes of the public. He practically stole 40 cakes. And that's terrible in Supes' eyes.
@@Gaia_BentosZX5 Not to mention pulling it off would give Luthor majority control of the stomping grounds of MANY major heroes and villains, making them easier to keep tabs on.
11:32 I thought the reason Superman didn't show up for so long was just because Gotham is "over there" and "over there has to stand for itself".
I honest to god hope we as a community never let this joke go
@@MoonlightArchitect we'll try friend. We'll try.
M 0 0 N Y well this joke is over here and over here we can protect it.
@@PallysCafe Atta' boy!
That's part of the reason.
Everyone else is playing Risk, but Luthor is playing Monopoly
Just like DISNEY™
The true long game
Nathan You because it takes forever
@@thatonea-hole so Lex runs Disney?
@@billygreci9739
In the DC universe, yeah maybe he does.
I think David Cain is one of those characters whose civilian name sounds so good that any codename seems like a step down. Same with Donna Troy.
also with zebidiah kilgrave(the purple man)
@@henrybelman7424 whats funny about that is in the jessica jones netflix series, they made killgrave his fake name
Cain was originally going to be his codename with his real name unknown. Some time between when his Secret Files profile was written and when his debut issue was published it got changed
@@henrybelman7424 I just figured he was so confident in his abilities he thought he could scare his enemies with even the most basic title.
@@henrybelman7424 Also Nick Fury, Mercy Graves, Connor Hawke, Emma Frost and Jean Grey.
"So Batgirl, we meet at last--or should I say, ALFRED?!"
No joke, I thought you were gonna say "ONE-FACE!"
I was Expecting "GRANNY GOODNESS!!!!"
@@ayaanshah2417 *Imperial March plays in the distance*
Or should I say, SNOWFLAME
"ROCK'N'ROLL HAS FINALLY DECLARED WAR ON ME!!!"
CAN'T BREATHE! TOO MUCH LAUGHING!!!
Now all I can imagine is batman breaking into a music store. Smashing all the rock and roll albums while shouting “PUNK IS NOTHING BUT DEATH AND CRIME AND THE RAGE OF A BEAST!!!”.
“RESPECT AUTHORITY!”
“ROCK AND ROLL HAS FINALLY DECLARED WAR ON ME!!”
Yes Bruce, they’ve been waiting for this chance. They’ve waited for years. And now, it’s finally begun....
.... *WORLD WAR ROCK.*
"For Those About To Rock" starts playing.
I’m surprise no one ever talks about how the Joker murder Gordon’s wife because it’s one of the most creative Joker murders ever.
He throws a baby at her, which forces her to drop her gun to catch the baby midair like a football and then he shoots her, all the while in a room full of babies on the floor.
I hate to say this about the murder of Gordon’s wife.... but that was kind of funny, not in a clever way but more in like “it’s so dark and random all you can do is laugh” kind of way
Linkara: "I bet you don't know who Gavin King is without having to Google him."
Me: *closes Google search" Whaaat? Noo.. come on 😅
For those wondering about Azrael, he's basically a supersoldier crusader designed by a crazy group of Christian zealots, the order of saint Dumas, with access to chemical and genetic science chicanery. When he dons his old armor, it makes him more than a little crazy from conditioning and chemicals.
And when I say supersoldier and crazy, he nearly beat Bane to death.
Luthor: "We're going to make Gotham great again!"
Proceeds to run and win the presidency...
I mean, he *did* run for and win the presidency. And he was less corrupt than a certain real-world POTUS. He actually *divested* from LexCorp.
@@RabblesTheBinx At least he's competent?
Batman: No man's land would make a great Arkham game.
Wasn't Arkham City just that?
@@adviel I only just realised.
Closest thing to that would be INfamous
When Luthor became President in the comics, it seemed insane to me that DC expected us to believe that anybody would vote for such an obvious criminal.
Oh, how naive I used to be.
It gets weirder if you look at Luthor's earliest appearances were he was a bit chubby and had horrible hair, DC might've accidentally predicted the future
It feels like a bad joke now...and we had to deal with the punchline.
Obvious to us, but in universe Lex is pretty good at covering his tracks. It wasn't until President Lex put on a battlesuit and tried to publicly kill Superman that people saw he was a crook.
So it's much much worse here.
Unfortunately for us, Lex Luthor was actually smart and knew that he actually had to do a good job as President and get things done if he wanted to be popular. We were not so lucky with our guy.
Though Lex never had help from a secret power help him get in nor said power's bitch.
Though in retrospect, given his endgame, it does make me wonder if he engineered the Earthquake in Gotham rather than nature doing it for said real estate. Fuck knows if that were the case, Bruce would've enjoyed beating the shit out of him, armor suit or not for fucking with his city in the most chaotic way rather than what we got in the pages of Superman/Batman
Gotham had more bakeries than Metropolis and if Lex Luthor rebuilt Gotham, those bakeries would be restored for his evil scheme.
And that's terrible.
*OF COURSE!!!*
His evil plan to get 40 cakes from each of the bakeries.
@@thatonea-hole He'd never run out of Hostess fruit pies!
"It's kind of hilarious how his master plan; the end game of No-Man's Land; is...basically just a real estate scheme." OMG! DONNER LUTHOR CANON!
Luthor is just that right level of insanity and narcissism that makes him a great villain. I also agree with you on Cassandra being the best of the Batgirls. She's silent but deadly, and one who doesn't mess around.
Remember when No's Man Land was an overexaggeration of government ambivalence to disaster relief? I miss those days...
Here have a roll of paper towels
1:02 Hell yeah, you forgot names on that list! Where were the most important members of the Batfamily, Ace the Bathound and Batcow?
And Terry!
batcow didn't exist for a long time
The only thing that isn’t silent is the notification for the first part of the Cassandra Cain retrospective.
Good thing i was awake by then.
Cassandra and Clayface are best team. Hope he covers that specific part of her life and times.
I recently read that story and OMG I loved their friendship
And another reason why I hate Batwoman now!
0:29 Hearing the whole BatFam listed out is...beautiful.
Also Cassie wins not only for all her epic actions and storyline but being a tiny deaf-mute Asian ballerina Batman.
“DC has not always done right by her”
Wow, this aged all too well. Cassandra in the BOP movie was also mishandled.
That’s Cass in name only or if you’re felling salty Carrie Kelly
Cass is still my favorite DC character to this day.
Knowing *how* to kill means you can avoid it. If you don't know what kills, you are likely to do so by accident.
Cassy the daughter of Bruce, my fav western comic character pre new 52. As someone with reading problems due to a learning disability she was listed as the first dyslexic super hero which well she is but frankly not how I would have started off how to introducing her but that was how I learned of her and the more I did the more I came to adore her. And well then way back in your top 15 worse heroes to villains ep became a key reason I started following you.
I'm glad you found her and Lewis. Keep being awesome Professor!
Justice is Silent
Together We Can Be Silent Justice
Isn't that what evil Cass said to Tim...
@@rwg6357 If it is that would be so funny
3:36-3:41 It’s even worse than that, Batkara. The power of rock has been amplified through multimodal reflection sorting, pink energy and forbidden magic from...
ANCIENT EGYPT!!! (March of the Empire plays)
I thought it was powered by Anar-Chi.
" LETS MAKE GOTHAM GREAT AGAIN " Lex Luthor in a nutshell
Oh no, Lex Luthur has a real-estate scheme to own 3/4 of Gotham? Watch out Batman, he is going to sink all the surrounding land to make his purchase worth more. I saw it in a movie!
Much like Spider-Man, Batgirl fills the much needed shoes where the original Batman has failed. Much like Miles Morales, Cassandra Cane appeared when a city lost all hope. Unlike Batman, Batgirl isn't seen as an all-knowing demigod, but rather a friend you thought you never had. This is my problem with superheroes in general: More often than not, they forget the human side of them.
It's why someone (or some bot) like Megatron works. IDW1 had a full redemption arc for him, becoming what Optimus Prime saw in him, a true leader crammed in a starship full of idiots. This redemption was also seen in Transformers Prime, after seeing the true nature of Dark Energon and becoming Unicron's puppet. He even thanked Prime for saving him from Unicron's Madness all the way back in the Rebirth when G1 (USA) ended.
I'm glad to see Cassandra getting her due here. I started reading comics around the time she was introduced and I've always thought she was a really cool and underrated character, but for some reason no one else ever seems to talk about her.
It's because Dan Didio has been trying to make people forget about her for over ten years
"I keep doing these retrospective on charaters the owners mess up."
Oh so we are deffenetly getting Damian Wayne retrospective at some point then?
@Raged Conch Among other things, yes.
When are we getting a retrospective on the Marvel Family?
You know, if this were any other city, I'd agree with you about Lex's plan, but think about it. Gotham, among other things, is kind of a super-villain factory. With so much of it in his control, Lex could basically scout the worst of the worst as he needs them. Just saying.
He could do that anyway, and he doesn't. He prefers supervillains who are more powerful yet also less unstable.
Funny thing about that, Nick Scratch (the batshit rock star he was alluding to) has that covered. Gotham wasn't turned into No Man's Land just because the city was in debt and every one left. That was part of it but the final nail was Scratch highlighting that it was a breading ground for super villains.
I had no idea that Gotham city was located in Puerto Rico
A Real estate scheme? Wasn't one of the superman movies all about Luthors real estate schemes too? Is Luthor just a really cheesed off property magnate? No Mans Land is the comic that got me into comics, and Cassandra Cain is one of my favourites, so this is right up my alley! Thanks Linkara!
You know, as iconic as Batman is, and as frequently I saw him in media during my formative years, I honestly can't say if I have overall positive feelings about him as a person :(
11:50 It's because No Man's Land was OVER THERE and OVER THERE had to learn how to stand on its own!
Yeah, Cassandra really is the best Batgirl.
in fact, for me Barbara only comes in third after Stephanie. (She was always written much better as Oracle)
finally. Barbara as Oracle was one of a kind!
YES! YES! YES! As Batman once said about Cassandra, "She's perfect."
Is Barbara Gordon THAT terrible a character, Manos? People seem to have a vehement hatred for her.
See: Grace Randolph.
@@cinemagraphic6324 No. Barbara Gordon is a great character and one of my faves. Cassandra Cain is also a great character and was better at being Batgirl than Babs. As a fan of both, I was frustrated that Barbara was made Batgril again because she had grown as a character after becoming Oracle. That move still seems like a step backward for her. Not to mention taking the role Cass rightfully earned felt wrong.
I wish Cass was in the DCAU and I wish No Man's Land would be a DCAU movie . I like how the storyline was used in Dark Knight Rises.
The novelization of No Man's Land by Greg Rucka actually did do what Linkara suggested happen with Joker: he appears early on, then vanishes for about half the book before reappearing in the second half. And it does work well there--some of the characters assume he's dead, but the readers know he's not and are just waiting for him to make his move.
Cassandra Cain got me back into comics.
Oh bless you. She is so special to me, in a lot the same way and for similar reasons that Sailor Saturn is, and I feel like she gets little credit and not near enough love.
Starman from the 90s is still my favorite comic! Mark Waid's Flash run in the mid to late 90s was great too.
Hey Linkara. Two questions.
1. Any Chance for a future retrospective on Starman?
2. How did you react when DC turns Dick Grayson into Rick Grayson after shooting him in the head?
"They compliment each other in a way I don't think she does with any of the other Batman crew" Stephanie Brown would like to have a word with you
Chase Warman Well Steph and Tim. Plus Dick to some extend given her first go around w/Deathstroke on his behalf while was hospitalized
Steph and Cass have a different sort of relationship, especially since it happens AFTER Cass' mind gets reshuffled. Azrael and her get along really, really well before that happens.
@@AT4W Oh yeah, it's a DIFFERENT kind of relationship if you get my meaning...
Linkara-AtopTheFourthWall Speaking of dear Jean-Paul, its a shame Puckett never used him for the first 36 issues. Though I do suspect Denny O'Neil wanted to keep things self contained for the character as possible from post NML through #100/final issue*
*you think Cass would've been included for her lamenting Jean-Paul along with Barbara and Leslie Tompkins but NOPE!!!
While I haven't read any of No man's land itself, my guide to Batman (I forget the actual title) got me quite interested in the concept, and I generally find the idea of Heroes having to hold things together for a prolonged period, or waging a sustained campaign to be quite intriguing.
With you giving context to the length, I doubt we'll see a review, so thanks for the summary you did give.
Cassandra and I were born the same year. Linkara made me casually interested in her to begin with, and now I am enthusiastically invested in both her, and the No Man's Land story in itself. Happy 20th Birthday to Cassandra!
And Happy Birthday to you! Whenever yours is.
@@HeirofAzaran Thanks
I've been wanting to learn about Cassandra Cain forever. This is perfect.
@@SonicStantz Thanks I'll make sure to check em out
Thank You! I was wondering why nobody was talking about No Man’s Land! (Except for the whole Joker thing at the end)
Probably one of the most underrated series ever!
I remember collecting the Cataclysm and No Man's Land comics.
wstine79 I have the whole series
You know what Luthor said in the first Superman film. "Stocks may rise and fall, utilities and transportation systems may collapse. People are no damn good, but they will always need land and they will pay through the nose to get it! "
No Man's Land, to me even as a young 15 year old, seemed very much inspired by John Carpenter's Escape from New York with Kurt Russell, which is why I didn't like how it was adapted into Nolan's Dark Knight Rises, mainly due to it being rushed through, but that's just my opinion
I actually like the fact that you highlight characters that have not been treated too kindly by their makers and therrefore often have a not so great image or are rather obscure. I never had heard of Rom before but now I know how awesome he is!
I listened to the audio drama of this event: really good. Glad to see you covering this story.
@@SonicStantz don't know, think it's by the people that made the one for knightfall. look it up
Cassandra Cain has been my favorite Batgirl and one of my favorite characters full stop ever since I read Greg Rucka’s No Man’s Land novelization. Thank you so much for doing this.
I found that book in my school library, but I didn't think it was worth the read because of how thick it was. Boy, did miss out! And I haven't been in high school for years.
no mention of Helena Wayne?
oh crap that's right she's from Earth 2. Darn you DC!
Technically speaking... White Helena Bertinelli... WAS Helena Wayne all a long and Rebirth Helena Bertinelli is the real one
RWG Basically, one of the many stupid New 52 retcons.
@@L1701 Well they wanted to keep using Huntress without referencing Earth 2,... So they didn't change the design at all and just said she was the adoptive daughter of a Sicillain crime family... while always leaving that backdoor open to reintroduce the concept that she's helena wayne. I mean if you liked her as Bertinelli better fine... but New 52 didn't introduce the concept... it been something they were plotting to do for a while. Like what happened with power girl, Its why they made Power Girl an ancient Atlantean whose powers just happen to be just like a Kryptonians cause they wanted to keep Karen but also follow the no other Kryptonians and no multiverse mandate until they finally outright undid it in infinite crisis
17:12 Does this mean we can expect a Wally West retrospective at somepoint in the future?
No Man's Land sounds an awful lot like the inspiration for Arkham City.
A bit. It also inspired the final season of Gotham and The Dark Knight Rises.
Holy shit! I was actually hoping Cassandra would be the focus of your retrospective this year! I had known about the character for a while but only started reading her old solo series last year and fell in love with her character!
Yes! It's here! I love Cassandra Cain, she's one of my all time favorite superheroes. I've been looking forward to the start of this retrospective ever since it was announced in Yet Another 15 Missed Opportunities of AT4W.
Absolutely love the Retrospectives, the Blue Beetle one got me into the Jaime Reyes run. Really excited to see one unfold "live"
You better not neglect StephCass.
Seriously. Cass hallucinates Steph bridal carrying her for god's sake!
i can't tell you how legitimately excited i am for this retrospective.
Cassandra Cain helped me get back into comics. I could gush for hours.
And BOY HOWDY did OYL piss me off folks. Cassandra helped get me in...OYL's treatment of her fed my apathy towards it once again.
You know a wiseman named Bobby Singer once told me “Family don’t end in blood.” But it doesn’t start there either. I consider Batman to be the epitome of that phrase. Because Family cares about you, not what you can do for them. Family’s there for you, through the good, the bad, all of it. They got your back, even if it hurts. That’s family.
I was going to comment how what the government did to Gotham in this story sounded far fetched, but then I remembered what the real government did and is still doing to Puerto Rico. 😞
Man, this is making me hope that we get more of Cassandra/Orphan in Young Justice: Outisiders.
It's stunning how influential the comics were to later Batman movies like The Nolan films, specifically The Dark Knight Rises...
And video games, I mean this is basically Arkham City's set-up right there.
Honestly imho combining Knightfall and No Man's Land into one film was a bit of an over reach. The really should have just done one or other.
Wait, it's already been 8 MONTHS since this video came out? Geez, time sure flies...
Rewatching. My favorite retrospective. My heart is full of love and affection for Cassandra tbh. As a member of Fandom™ (which constitutes of just me, my best friend and my favorite TH-camrs that I watch when I want to), I enjoy writing for her and reimagining many scenarios with her and the Batfam. Cassie is kind of a comfort character, I guess; rewatching this retrospective makes me go from :D to :0 to D: and back to :D!!!!!, the jokes are well timed, the explanations are insightful but concise so it doesn't feel like an exposition dump and sticks in my head, and the commentary is as great as always (if not better. It's easy to hear the passion for the character tbh)
I've been looking forward to this for ages. Cassandra Cain is my favourite Bat-Family member (only rivalled by Nightwing), and she more than deserves this retrospective.
You posted this right when I was thinking of going to bed.
Cassandra Cain my favorite Batgirl of all time hands down!
Currently she's a member of Batman's outsiders under the name "the orphan".
This video made me go back to pre-52 Batbooks- an era I'd been too intimidated previously to read from because of how many books and characters there were to keep track of. But because of your retrospective I have been blasting through this era! Cass is now one of my favorite characters ever!
No Man's Land is probably my second favorite Batman graphic novel behind Hush.
EDIT: I think my favorite part of No Man's Land was Poison Ivy becoming redemptive by basically being a helping hand in the city.
I can just imagine the Birds Of Prey movie folks watching this retrospective, seeing Cassandra's origin, powers, basically everything about her and going "do the opposite of this? gotcha"
16:44 "This was also during the period when Nightwing was emulating Batman so that he could live up to his namesake as 'Dick'."
I couldn't stop laughing for 5 minutes at that joke. XD
I think that Harley Quinn season 2 is inspired by no man's land
1. Batgirl appearance
2. Batman was missing
3. Villains controlling everything
4. Post apocalyptic world
Make since seeing Quinn's comic debut was No Man's Land.
Nice No Man's Land retrospective. What? This was a Cassandra Cain video? Are we sure?
"However you'd describe Bruce's relationship with Bette Kane"
She's... his cousin? Bette's father was Martha Wayne's and Jacob Kane's brother.
Cassandra Cain is such a pure, heroic character in my opinion, and what they tried to do to her... well, anyway, let's see Batman fight the evil rock and roll vibrations first.
Two related things I read that really enhanced No Man's Land. (Spoilers for 20 year old stories)
1) A special. The first part picks up with Bruce in Monaco. He has abandoned himself into the Bruce facade, going from party to party. Then Talia appears, she tells him that since he no longer has his responsibility to Gotham, they can run away together. But in the morning, she wakes to a letter - he tells he that if he did, he would no longer be the man she loves. I believe that may be the night Damien was conceived.
The second part, he gets back, scouts the city, and immediately identifies Helena, but follows her, watching to see if she is worthy to wear the Bat.
2) The Novelization. A subplot, David Cain, with his daughter, destroys the hall of records, erasing all records of property ownership. But Bruce had removed all the duplicates, which Barbara and Tim alter to make into forgeries of the originals. Lex makes his land grab, buying the land for pennies on the dollar - believing there is no legal owner. Then Lucius Fox finds the documents. At this point, Lex has already made this massive investment - but its now completely altruistic, because he can't claim the land.
And *that* is why he beats the Vice President and the Governor of Texas for the Presidency.
Another subplot - Dr. Arkham opened the doors before he fled, so the inmates wouldn't starve. Everyone left. Except for two. Joker stayed, waiting for a plan to come to him. In No Man's Land, what is the Joker's place? But he comes to realize he is not alone. That doctor he *broke* stayed too.
Lewis, I'll grant you, based on sales figures, your Cassandra Cain is the best Batgirl. But that will never make me turn from the one that was given less of a chance - Steph. And I will always maintain that the least popular is the one that got her first ongoing series in 2011.
400th like here - love it when you do these extensive character profiles like you did with Blue Beetle.
16:43 That ZING
It's kind of sad that "American government abandons city after natural disaster" doesn't sound as far fetched these days. Oh hi Puerto Rico.
My headcannon is that Batman pretends he has plans for everything and went something unexpected happens he claims is all part of his plan, and if that thing comes back to help him then he can just take credit for it and if doesn’t he just stays quiet and hope no one remembers what he said, or blames it on Lex Luthor having an even bigger plan
Thank you for remembering the first Batwing
I wish he and Cass would meet. They'd have a lot to talk about
Personally i believe Cassandra will always be the best Batgirl
My favorite Batgirl.
11:31-11:49 There's a pretty good reason why Superman didn't show up sooner, Gotham is over there and over there have to deal with it's own problems.
I loved this character. OYL was such a blow to me that I quit superhero comics altogether.
"HAS ANYONE SEEN THE JOKER?" - Batman.
This retrospective reminded me of why I loved comics---and Batgirl stories---in the first place. After some of the recent, darker movies, I had started to wonder. But hearing all about Cassandra Cain's history....dang, I gotta get my hands on a copy of No Man's Land, now. I've loved her stories so much, but I never got around to read her origin story. So thanks for this!
I love Cass.
I cant stand the new Orphan name.It`s so dumb.
Even Black Bat was better.
There's like 8 Green Lanterns but they cant have two Batgirls???
Agreed. I hope she takes up the Batgirl mantle in Young Justice, since Barbara is Oracle now. It can't be a coincidence that both her and Shiva make their debut in the same season.
Even for a Billionare like Luthor, controlling 3/4 of a major city has the potential for a pretty handsome profit. So its not really out of character for him.
The awkward moment when the actual comic book villain is a better president than the president from 2016-2020 -and hopefully no other terms-
Luthor seems to live up to the Reeve Film gimmick of being really obsessed about Real Estate.
So drawing bat symbols on the walls in the dark knight rises was also based on no man's land. And still some idiots say, "the dark knight rises is not comic accurate"
Borrowing ideas from the comic is not the same as being accurate to the comic.
Plus, in the comic he and Batgirl just spray painted the walls.
In TDKR he wastes several hours covering the side of a bridge in gasoline and lighting it on fire, even though he's supposed to be trying to stop a nuclear weapon from going off.
@@jonathancampbell5231 I meant the bat symbols with chalk. Not the gasoline one on the bridge. I meant the idea that batman still has some followers.
Why some people still don't get? Metaphorically, not the exact stuff and product they use.
I don't think most people are complaining about Batman having followers in TDKR.
They are complaining that those are fairly minor similarities vs the bigger differences, like Bruce only being Batman for a year or so before he quits for years, Gotham having so few supervillains, Robin being the middle name of some street cop etc
@@jonathancampbell5231 the movies are great, and those people only nitpicking it for nothing. It's a batman in a realistic world. It's what it meant to be. And they confirmed at the beginning that robin is not gonna be in the movies. John robin blake was just a minor easter egg who helps batman.
For example if harvey dent is black in the 1989 movie, should I nitpick the whole movie's world? No, he's just a minor character. Or maybe robin was gonna be a mechanic in burton's third movie (which idk if that idea was real or not because of that fanart)
FINALLY! I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS
I'm so happy! Finally my favorite member of the bat-family gets a spotlight
Gotta hand it to you, Lewis. A new HOPR video and a retrospective video in one week. Bravo.
To anyone curious, I don't think it's addressed here, Cassandra Cain was created by Damion Scott (then lead writer on the Batman books) and artist Kelley Puckett.