I feel like Bruce is smart enough to know that assertion would spur Stephanie on, though, because her main Bat-family connection is Tim Drake, who she's trying to fill the shoes of. That'd totally motivate her to do better.
@@jameljenks2584 LOL! That's literally the best description for Knightfall ever. If it had a love button, I'd be spamming the hell out of it right now.
Bruce suspected that Stephanie was alive, but couldn’t confirm it. The worse part was that the War Games made it seemed Stephanie Death was Bruces fault. So in a follow up they had a character who was known for her compassion and pacifist ways, Dr Leslie Thompkins, kill Stephanie to teach Bruce a lesson. That equally proved stupid, so they brought back Chuck Dixon to ret con that so that Thompkins faked everything to get Stephanie away from Gotham
@@Lukecash2 I think that retcon would really work if it was heavily implied rather than flat out stated. After realising that she’d been used by Bruce, Steph fakes her death once she turns 18 so that she can adopt her daughter and get out of Gotham to lead a peaceful life. Having her come back as Spoiler then Batgirl just undermines her decision to fake her death
Stephanie as a whole was kinda misused constantly, like her as Robin, and growing into the role is great, but it never was gonna go anywhere, then they "kill her off", then she becomes Batgirl, and she she's good in that too, but the New 52 happened... Let Stephanie have things, like damn!
I didn't know that much about her so this was pretty cool to see. Honestly sounds really interesting, its sad this didn't go further. I kinda liked where this was going and wouldn't mind reading more.
I also hate how much they make her just be “Tim’s gf”. Just let her be her own person, Tim keeps dumping her anyway. Or at the very least allow them to develop as individuals within their coupling and not just have it be boy and girl, mandatory dating type thing.
Yeah, she's gotten screwed over a lot, but at least she might have an actual chance now with Dan DiDio finally gone and unlike a lot of other (younger) characters she at least got brought back instead of just remaining dead.
Agreed. But because of DC’s weird ability for Editors to mandate who can & can’t be used based on their personal whims & fancies (‘He Who Will Not be Named’: looking at you!) Stephanie disappeared for much too long! She’s back in ‘Infinite Frontier’ as part of the multi-Batgirls, along with Cassandra Caine. 🦇
DCeased did her return as Robin so dirty. She dies, we get a promise of her being revived by Talia in the Lazarus Pits, and then it’s never followed up on in Dead Planet.
I get the feeling it'll be addressed in the sequel to Dead Planet. As there was a subplot from that book also dropped. So there are THREE lingering subplots.
@@ProfessorHurt Yup. We still need to address Superman from the original DCeased, Stephanie's revival from Hope At World's End, and now the return of Zombie Darkseid from Dead Planet. And I still want to know where the hell Raven was while her daddy barbecued Paris.
I love Stephanie, her bubbly personality just fits so well with the rest of the Batfamily especially since Dick is usually off doing his own thing so she can fill that gap. I think a more honest attempt at doing her Robin storyline would’ve worked a lot better than just making it buildup to her death, maybe one day we can get a good adaptation of this storyline that can do Steph justice.
Even if the intent was always to kill her off, most writers didn't really give her the kind of room to grow that would leave an emotional impact on the reader. It just seems like a comedy of errors that makes the whole cast look bad
Her bubbly personality hides alot of the pain she feels, it is a defensive front. Also way underestimated is how smart she is mainly because of the fact that most of the other bats are outright geniuses in one way or another.
that was... upsetting. She was really treated poorly. I vaguely knew about the events but uff... this couldn't be fun to read. Glad her Batgirl run was good. That treated her a lot better.
Batman : " This modern age is killing me, All the Robins have been " Boy wonders" .........now I'm dealing with a " Girl wonder" ..........Alfred, should I hang up my CAPE ???."😄
My favorite version of Stephanie is her as Batgirl. I liked the run, and I liked her dynamic with Oracle. I still kinda feel like Steph should be Batgirl but that’s just me
Stephanie as Robin is a design I really like, her blonde hair really sets her apart from the other members of the Batfamily like how Barbara is a redhead. Also noticing some similarities between how Bruce treats her and how he treated Carrie Kelley in the way he talks. The one mistake and you're out, with similar situations but different results.
I really think that Stephanie as Robin could have been so much better if the dynamic Bruce had been more of a father figure than mentor. I just think if Bruce and Stephanie's dynamic was more father/daughter then her death would have had been more meaningful. It was like it was trying too hard not to be a parallel to Jason's story and death that it was awkward and unfulfilling.
I think the point was to make it less like 'family' and more of a mentor role since he felt betrayed by his 'family' (Tim) I also don't think it was well executed. If it was given more time that could have been explored and it might have worked better because then her death (while still a parallel) would have meant that no matter how he treats his Robin, they can still die. Then with her having not been treated like family, Dick, Jason, Tim, Barbara, Alfred could have almost turned on him, laid down some tough love about not treating her like family and it would have all felt like it actually had a real point. If all of that was done well and better fleshed out :D
@@mattyt1961 Yes but Tim wasn't his son yet. In the beginning, Bruce and Tim's relationship was mentor/student because Tim's parents were still alive. Granted they were asshats but still alive. It wasn't until Tim's parents died did their dynamic change.
Stephanie is such a cool character. When given time and effort, she can really work as both Spoiler and Batgirl. I'm pretty sure she would have also worked as Robin if editorial actually wanted to make that happen. That boat has sailed, since I don't think current-day-stories could fit a third concurrent Robin and she feels more at home as part of the Batgirls trifecta. But I would love to see stories set in the past that expand on her time as Robin. Even if just as oneshots or something like that
I'm a little sad that you glossed over the actual death of Stephanie, the climax of this entire little story they did. I feel like if we saw how violent and mean spirited it was, it would really drive home how dumb this entire thing was.
wow everyone is such a jerk in this story that it's unintentionally hilarious lmao -batman is extremely petty towards Tim and doesn't give Stephanie a fair shot -Stephanie immediately assumes Tim is cheating on her and doesn't try to clear things up -a girl who had a crush on Tim straight up assaults him -Tim proceeds to have a date(?) with that girl while still having a girlfriend I swear this was such a mess lol
I liked her as Robin. Seeing her wasted potential was fixed a bit when she because Batgirl. I feel this started the trend of DC killing off Teen Heroes left and right. Look at what happened in Teen Titans. They were dropping like flies.
Steph my baaaaaby. She remains one of my very favorite characters across all comics and she gets done SO DIRTY. A friend of mine made the mistake of asking me 'so what was the deal with the one time Spoiler faked her own death?' - DEEP BREATH - - breaking out all the war game fatty trades - And Tim was 100% cheating on Stephanie. Because Tim's an idiot who I love anyway. And Sasha writes the whole thing better than all the people who got paid to do it. I'd read that fic.
I just want Stephanie to be treated better overall, hopefully her going back to being batgirl will be well executed. She's my favorite member of the bat-family
Stephanie Brown as Robin is probably the biggest missed opportunity DC has had among the bat-characters. If DC had been serious about making her the first female Robin and not been so focused on killing her off - over the objections of the entire writing staff - they could have easily had a huge success that would have driven sales way up. Tim had been considering retiring many times over the previous few years and didn't want to be a vigilante forever. It was natural for him to retire and let someone else take on the role. Moreover, Stephanie would have been better at being the type of Robin Tim was trying to be. His shtick was he was the 'normal' Robin because he had a dad he was keeping his superhero life a secret from and a school life he had to juggle. But he was still a rich genius just like Bruce. Moreover, the reason he became Robin in the first place was to be a certain kind of influence on Batman, a lighter influence, and at that he was a complete and utter failure. He never counterbalanced Bruce's dark side. Steph's personality was much better suited to that, as even Tim noted when he went back to being Robin, telling himself he needed to be more like her. Moreover, she was much more 'normal' than Tim since she came from a poor background and had to deal with things like an abusive father, drug-addicted mother, teen pregnancy, ect. The plot-induced-stupidity of the entire arc is mind-boggling. Logically, since Tim was no longer Robin, he should have had more time to spend with his girlfriend, and that's the moment he stops calling her? Bruce plans to use Steph to get Tim back, but at no point does he try to address the reason Tim was forced to quit - his father - so whatever plan he had was doomed from the start. Plus he learned nothing from the Tower of Babel arc just a few years earlier and left his secret files vulnerable to being stolen by a teenager who never showed any high-tech skills whatsoever. And then there's Steph herself. Very little of what she does makes any sense and this story is the source of the whole 'Stephanie Brown is an idiot' thing. And it's so insulting that this story has her come to the 'realization' that 'this isn't a game!' In the 90s she reprimanded Argent, another teenaged superhero, for thinking it was all a game. Steph is ultimately a victim a victim of the Didio era, where DC's creative decisions were so often made by a man who doesn't know how to tell stories other than to 'write with death,' who didn't understand that characters could still have appeal and be marketable even if they were created after 1970, and who seemed to think all readers were idiots who could only follow characters if you could explain those characters in 2 words or less. Even her lack of a memorial was a result of Didio deciding she wasn't worth being treated with any respect and DC trying to forget War Games ever happened since it was so poorly received. If they wanted to do it for real, what they could have done was have it be Tim's idea to make Steph Robin because he thinks she can be the influence Bruce needs to not be all 'grr i am vengeance grr' all the time and because since she wasn't going to stop she'd be safer with Batman's training and protection. By having it be Tim's idea, Bruce would take it more seriously and treat her with more respect. The sad thing is that all of her development from 1992-2003 was thrown out the window. Every lesson she had ever learned, every life she had ever saved, including Bruce and Tim, all of it was discredited and rendered moot and meaningless by War Games. So when they brought her back she was essentially starting at square 1 and was treated as if she had never done anything good in her life. Even Hal Jordan got to keep his heroic history intact when he went and destroyed the universe.
Bruce never wastes any time finding new Robins.This should have been fantastic, but it wasn't it was meh.3 to 5 more Stephanies would have been perfect.
@@Vegadra That was actually pretty fucked up. That and him pleading for Nightwing to be Robin again was... well, that broke me, I don't watch Titans anymore. People said season 3 is better, but it's not good.
Yeah, they really waisted their dynamic. It makes me sad. As for identeties, I believe that Stephanie should get another shot as Batgirl. I really enjoyed the passing of the torch between her and Cass and getting both of them another chance in the role would be great. They deserve so much more attention than they get.
Good news! That's exactly what has happened. There is a recently concluded series called Batgirls featuring Barbara Gordon, Cassandra Caine, and Stephanie Brown. Babs pays a role in this series very similar to her Oracle role in Birds of Prey, while Cass and Steph ran as a duo, almost like sisters. Most of the action centered around the two of them. And yes, all three of them called themselves “Batgirl” and went around with the bat emblem on their chests.
For some reason one of the first things that come to mind when I think Stephanie brown is when she was tortured by Black Mask with a drill connected to a battery because of power outage. Very specific memory for no reason at all.
As bad as her treatment was during her time as Robin, it only got worse for Stephanie when she "returned from the dead." Dan DiDio really hated the character and made it his purpose to reduce her appearances at every opportunity. You can't really discuss the mismanagement of Stephanie Brown without covering DiDio's bizarre hatred of her.
Being reminded of Steph's treatment and writing during the entire Robin/Wargames arc just makes me all the more grateful for the short but beautiful time she was written by Bryan Q Miller. Poot.
One of my favourite being-a-fan memories was being able to attend a convention during Stephanie's 'dead' time and call out a spokesperson from DC on her lack of memorial. I feel like they treated her as a gimmick from putting on the Robin suit to dying, and ignored her being her own popular character. Honestly, they do this sort of thing a lot. Too many editorial and writing decisions are driven by personal preference instead of careful consideration of what the buyers are enjoying. Let's get rid of all legacy characters! Wait, why are people complaining? You mean you bought comics because you like legacy characters? Who does that? Stephanie is a fabulous Robin to Bruce's Batman. She's got Dick's cheer and fun, Jason's brutal deep care, and Tim's stubbornness. I'm sad we didn't get longer with her as Robin, even though subsequent writers have salvaged her story line into using these setbacks to make her stronger. I also love the notion that Gothamites to this day argue over whether or not there was a girl Robin. It's just the kind of nonsense distraction your cryptid mythos needs. Haha.
I've always had a soft spot for Stephanie Brown since I was an avid reader of the Robin series she was part of. I enjoyed the initial "love triangle" dynamic with Ariana, Tim and her which was reminiscent of Gwen, Peter and Mary Jane to me. I wasn't reading the bat books regularly at the time of War Games but I remember being pretty annoyed when I found out they had killed her off as part of (IMO) a cheap stunt.
I really enjoyed Stephs time as batgirl and her time as robin worked well in term of establishing relationships. That being said the only way it makes sense is if you see Batman as a really shitty person and that seems like a ridiculous way to write a hero. (Also It would have been great to see her with cass more cause their dynamic is great)
The worst wrinkle in her tenure is that she died because Leslie Tompkins refused to treat her injuries in order to teach Bruce a lesson. Awful awful awful.
I wanna say upfront that Tim Drake's Dad reaction to Tim being Robin is something I really really enjoyed. Tim's was a minor at the time being turned into a child soldier/superhero by Batman. From the outside it looks really bad and even in context... it ain't much better. Child endangerment being a thing. There's a reason you don't see too many kid sidekicks anymore. Teen heroes yes. Kid sidekicks not so much. If Tim's Dad HAD somehow managed to put a bullet in Bruce, no jury would have convicted him given the circumstances. Stephanie as Robin always seemed to me like Bruce's way to get Tim back into the fold. Like he just couldn't accept being "beaten" by Tim's dad (even if Bruce understood his point- he isn't a total psycho...yet). While Bruce did warm up to Steph over time, she started out with one strike against her. She was the Superhero equivalent of a spare tire only useful til it can be replaced. Then she was killed off in a manner that was meant to imply that she never should have been Robin in the first place ( Batman's child soldier fetish isn't questioned at all though ). Whatever the creators intended, the storyline did the character a great disservice which is why there was such a backlash to it. The writers oddly didn't seem to notice how much of a manipulating, vindictive SOB this storyline made Batman look like either. I'm not sure how any of this ever got past editorial. P.S.: Apologies for the length.
One writer said Stephanie was marked for death by editorial, which. Is the only reason they let them make her Robin to begin with. The one writer hoped they'd change their mind. That she could stay.
I remember reading War Drums and War Games back in the day and thinking, "WTF was that?" at the end. It felt really weird that Spoiler was soooo freaking seasoned and had made it so far on her own only to be tied to Bruce for whatever, not being allowed to grow during her working relationship with Bats, and ultimately dying horribly. Where was the character arc? DC's writers room allegedly wanted to make her death some kind of event, and instead, Stephanie turned out to be an overlong cameo in her own story? That's just bad.
I am new to your channel. Really loved your coverage on Tim. LOVE that you're giving attention to Steph, perhaps the most underrated and misused Bat-member over the years. Miller's Batgirl run could've run for years for me. Edit: Also, love your Batman voice. Wildly appropriate for this Batman who was written to be such a d**k to Stephanie. Also love your take on how they could've done this better. I wish we had that version!
One of the problems with the 'hurry-up and wait' world of comics is they always seem to want to 'grow' them too quick, then never (significantly) age them afterwards. Damian could have been an exception to this as he had a good excuse for his first ten years, but then... but you're asking about Stephanie. I like Robin's, and I liked Stephanie, but year I think she deserved a much longer build-up and run. As always thank you so very much for the video.
Stephanie could carry being Spoiler, Robin & Batgirl, each costume & persona giving her the ability to to show a facet of her character. Limiting her to one aspect of herself would be a great disservice, because she is more than a Spoiler, more than singular sidekick, more than a Legacy (Cluemaster and Bat), she is a friend to the whole Batfamily.
Every video I have to check on my boi Reverse Flash behind you. Sometimes he's there, other times he's not. Where does he go? To harass Barry? To get a soda? Turn into pure energy WB style? I need to know.
You have definitely made me a fan of Stephanie. I think I said before but there were to many BatFamily that I just inherently hated learning about new characters,and just avoided everything they were a part of. But now ive turned a new leaf Thanks once again for such an amazing video
Loved, loved, loved Stephanie as Batgirl!! That was a great run! And l enjoy her friendship with Cass and their games of rooftop tag! Stephanie is a great character...unfortunately, most of the writers a t DC just aren't good at writing female characters. Stephanie makes every story better!
I liked your Batman voice Sasha. You did great! Good girl! Lol I like Stephanie in her pre-52 Batgirl series, she was a lot of fun in that. Maybe some day they can do a Spoiler solo series again and bring in Oracle as a supporting character and try and re-create that dynamic, that would be pretty cool
I literally havent even started the video but I am already excited to see what you have to say! I just love Stephanie Brown and she means so much to me! I wish that DC treated her better!
I was disappointed at how short her run as Robin was. She quickly became my favorite character in the Bat-Family as Spoiler so making her Robin was great. I remember (i think after her death) Alfred mentioned how she was able to actually get Batman to smile.Later her run as Batgirl was one of the most enjoyable story lines I've read. Thanks New 52 for ruining that.
Steph has been my favorite modern character since her first appearance as Spoiler. I was thrilled when she got the Robin promotion but it ended much too fast and much too gruesomely.
Personally i think they make Batman's relationship dynamics too convoluted. My headcannon is that it hinges on night in crime alley. Part of realizes the danger of being alone, and the other part is afraid of the consequences. It would explain how he gathers all these allies, and certain times cast them aside.
I think the problem with Stephanie's time as Robin was that they (DC) shoehorned it in just fo her death in War Games. What they should have done is let her period of Robin go on a bit longer, so we would think that this is the new status quo for Robin, making her death so much more impactful. Her death was really rough.
Stephanie had such POTENTIAL as a Robin! She's the daughter of a criminal who wants to do this to get back at him and also be a BETTER PERSON! We could have seen a Bruce realising his mistakes with Jason, and doing things RIGHT this time! Their dynamic is more fun, and there are a few panels throughout her life time that show Bruce opening up to her. Plus her dynamic with Cass would have lead to some GREAT Batgirl & Robin stories! Stephanie is my favourite Robin, not necessarily because of how it went down, but because of all the POTENTIAL there is for her story!! And also because people like to pretend it was all fake, it never ckubted, and I live to annoy Fake Geek Gatekeepers.
I always favored Stephanie as Spoiler the most, but I really enjoyed her run as Batgirl too. With Robin the whole thing left a sour taste in my mouth because of how she wasn't given a fair chance. The action that got her fired was setup for her to fail. If she tried to save Batman, she disobeyed and would get fired, which is what happened. If she followed Batman's advice and stayed out of the fight and he got killed with her listening she would have gotten blamed for not stepping in when she should have. Stephanie was in a position where no matter what she was going to lose. There was potential with her as Robin but it was all a waste. I ultimately prefer her the most as Spoiler as it's her own identity so her being part of the Batgirl group fits nicely.
Stephanie Brown is my favourite Batgirl after Barbara Gordon (who I much prefer in her Oracle guise). I’m so glad to see her back in Infinite Frontier, it’s been too long! 🦇
Another great vid, which raises a question or two. Was Tim or Stephanie a Lois Lane ex? I really liked Stephanie's time as Batgirl, especially the friendship with Kara.
To be fair, the Batmobile (current one, not the classic or the silver age Plymouth) is big and heavy enough to be classified as heavy machinery, requiring at least a CDL if not a specialized operators license.
It didn't come up in your video, because it obviously wasnt relevant, but in the excellent Kevin Smith Green Arrow which features his return to life, Batman helps GA out uncovering the secret and Stephanie is there and there is some witty banter
Really enjoyed the Stephanie Brown Batgirl series -- ticked me off when they decided Babs suddenly got better and Stephanie disappeared without even a thank you.
Wait! ”Hiring” & ”firing” of a Robin? Does this mean the Robins were like employees of Batman? Or is it only a figure of speech?? PS: Batman is kind of petty for an adult.
It was actually this arc that first got me regularly reading monthly DC comics. I had recently started venturing into comic book shops for first time to pick up Buffy Vamp Slayer Spin off comic ‘Frey’ and I saw a cover with Stephanie on cover in Robin outfit with “the girl wonder” and that hit me wanting to know what was going on there, so I bought it.
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Your hair looks amazing in this video. And I couldn’t tell if it was your glasses or your eye makeup but it looks great!
Okay .. I'll get Atlas VPN but only after you back down the "Bat"voice a bit. It's gotta be rough on your own.
@@Me-wx1mt This queen's hair game is always on point.
@@vernonhampton5863 ikr
Thank you my fan fics of stephanie are so happy #stephaniebrownishot
Bruce saying she hits like a girl as a insult is hilarious considering Lady Shiva and Cassandra Cain are the best fighters.
Black Canary is on par with Bruce in martial arts or at least she was but...you know Bruce has to be the best at literally everything
I feel like Bruce is smart enough to know that assertion would spur Stephanie on, though, because her main Bat-family connection is Tim Drake, who she's trying to fill the shoes of. That'd totally motivate her to do better.
Shiva retrained him after he went to broke back mountain with bane
@@jameljenks2584 LOL! That's literally the best description for Knightfall ever. If it had a love button, I'd be spamming the hell out of it right now.
@@Psiberzerker I try lol
Don't forget that- after Bruce discovers that Stephanie survived- he never bothered to tell Tim that his girlfriend wasn't dead.
Bruce suspected that Stephanie was alive, but couldn’t confirm it.
The worse part was that the War Games made it seemed Stephanie Death was Bruces fault.
So in a follow up they had a character who was known for her compassion and pacifist ways, Dr Leslie Thompkins, kill Stephanie to teach Bruce a lesson.
That equally proved stupid, so they brought back Chuck Dixon to ret con that so that Thompkins faked everything to get Stephanie away from Gotham
@@Lukecash2 Good move on his part to fix that
@@Lukecash2 I think that retcon would really work if it was heavily implied rather than flat out stated. After realising that she’d been used by Bruce, Steph fakes her death once she turns 18 so that she can adopt her daughter and get out of Gotham to lead a peaceful life. Having her come back as Spoiler then Batgirl just undermines her decision to fake her death
Stephanie as a whole was kinda misused constantly, like her as Robin, and growing into the role is great, but it never was gonna go anywhere, then they "kill her off", then she becomes Batgirl, and she she's good in that too, but the New 52 happened... Let Stephanie have things, like damn!
I didn't know that much about her so this was pretty cool to see.
Honestly sounds really interesting, its sad this didn't go further. I kinda liked where this was going and wouldn't mind reading more.
I also hate how much they make her just be “Tim’s gf”. Just let her be her own person, Tim keeps dumping her anyway. Or at the very least allow them to develop as individuals within their coupling and not just have it be boy and girl, mandatory dating type thing.
Yeah, she's gotten screwed over a lot, but at least she might have an actual chance now with Dan DiDio finally gone and unlike a lot of other (younger) characters she at least got brought back instead of just remaining dead.
@@handsoaphandsoap ur comment is literally why I despise timsteph
Agreed. But because of DC’s weird ability for Editors to mandate who can & can’t be used based on their personal whims & fancies (‘He Who Will Not be Named’: looking at you!) Stephanie disappeared for much too long! She’s back in ‘Infinite Frontier’ as part of the multi-Batgirls, along with Cassandra Caine. 🦇
All I can think is,if this came out today, they'd probably call it, "Spoiler Warring"
This comment is gonna live rent free in my head from now on
That’s actually not bad.
@@daelen.cclarkIt is and that's why she points it out.
I don't care what anyone says: Stephanie was the 4th Robin. It's not the character's fault that the editors did her dirty
lol Batman the hair stylist. “No no no, this looks much better.”
Funfact: every Robin suit came with hair gel.
A bet he made Alfred do it.
I'm picturing Batman combing her hair with Bobby pins in his mouth. 😆
Batman the Hairstylist probably hates Stephanie so much, and it's the reason why he picked the Worst Hair style to have in Combat
@@oKiterrrr
Was the Hair Gel called Gorilla Glue?
DCeased did her return as Robin so dirty. She dies, we get a promise of her being revived by Talia in the Lazarus Pits, and then it’s never followed up on in Dead Planet.
I get the feeling it'll be addressed in the sequel to Dead Planet. As there was a subplot from that book also dropped. So there are THREE lingering subplots.
@@ProfessorHurt Yup. We still need to address Superman from the original DCeased, Stephanie's revival from Hope At World's End, and now the return of Zombie Darkseid from Dead Planet. And I still want to know where the hell Raven was while her daddy barbecued Paris.
I love Stephanie, her bubbly personality just fits so well with the rest of the Batfamily especially since Dick is usually off doing his own thing so she can fill that gap. I think a more honest attempt at doing her Robin storyline would’ve worked a lot better than just making it buildup to her death, maybe one day we can get a good adaptation of this storyline that can do Steph justice.
Even if the intent was always to kill her off, most writers didn't really give her the kind of room to grow that would leave an emotional impact on the reader. It just seems like a comedy of errors that makes the whole cast look bad
Her bubbly personality hides alot of the pain she feels, it is a defensive front. Also way underestimated is how smart she is mainly because of the fact that most of the other bats are outright geniuses in one way or another.
Bruce: "I don't expect to see Spoiler out there either" Steph: "Right, Ill become Batgirl"
that was... upsetting. She was really treated poorly. I vaguely knew about the events but uff... this couldn't be fun to read. Glad her Batgirl run was good. That treated her a lot better.
For me the cringe makes me want to read it
Batman : " This modern age is killing me, All the Robins have been " Boy wonders" .........now I'm dealing with a " Girl wonder" ..........Alfred, should I hang up my CAPE ???."😄
Hearing the words “good girl” in your Batman voice activated my fight or flight response. That voice is so horrible, yet it brings me so much joy.😂
Does Batman need a new Robin or a new Dog
@@AesculapiusPiranha yes
My favorite version of Stephanie is her as Batgirl. I liked the run, and I liked her dynamic with Oracle. I still kinda feel like Steph should be Batgirl but that’s just me
Stephanie as Robin is a design I really like, her blonde hair really sets her apart from the other members of the Batfamily like how Barbara is a redhead. Also noticing some similarities between how Bruce treats her and how he treated Carrie Kelley in the way he talks. The one mistake and you're out, with similar situations but different results.
I really think that Stephanie as Robin could have been so much better if the dynamic Bruce had been more of a father figure than mentor. I just think if Bruce and Stephanie's dynamic was more father/daughter then her death would have had been more meaningful. It was like it was trying too hard not to be a parallel to Jason's story and death that it was awkward and unfulfilling.
I think the point was to make it less like 'family' and more of a mentor role since he felt betrayed by his 'family' (Tim)
I also don't think it was well executed. If it was given more time that could have been explored and it might have worked better because then her death (while still a parallel) would have meant that no matter how he treats his Robin, they can still die.
Then with her having not been treated like family, Dick, Jason, Tim, Barbara, Alfred could have almost turned on him, laid down some tough love about not treating her like family and it would have all felt like it actually had a real point.
If all of that was done well and better fleshed out :D
@@mattyt1961 Yes but Tim wasn't his son yet. In the beginning, Bruce and Tim's relationship was mentor/student because Tim's parents were still alive. Granted they were asshats but still alive. It wasn't until Tim's parents died did their dynamic change.
Stephanie is such a cool character. When given time and effort, she can really work as both Spoiler and Batgirl. I'm pretty sure she would have also worked as Robin if editorial actually wanted to make that happen.
That boat has sailed, since I don't think current-day-stories could fit a third concurrent Robin and she feels more at home as part of the Batgirls trifecta. But I would love to see stories set in the past that expand on her time as Robin. Even if just as oneshots or something like that
I'm a little sad that you glossed over the actual death of Stephanie, the climax of this entire little story they did. I feel like if we saw how violent and mean spirited it was, it would really drive home how dumb this entire thing was.
This video is mainly about Steph's stint as Robin. It leaves room for Sasha to do a "Death and Return of Stephanie Brown" in the future.
So what happened exactly? I had no idea she was ever killed off!
How did she die? I heard it was terrible
@@mediatorraptor3349 She was graphically tortured to death by Black Mask
wow everyone is such a jerk in this story that it's unintentionally hilarious lmao
-batman is extremely petty towards Tim and doesn't give Stephanie a fair shot
-Stephanie immediately assumes Tim is cheating on her and doesn't try to clear things up
-a girl who had a crush on Tim straight up assaults him
-Tim proceeds to have a date(?) with that girl while still having a girlfriend
I swear this was such a mess lol
I agree. If you wrote this as new characters it could be parody
@@AesculapiusPiranha it unironicly could lol
DC hires failed soap opera writers.
This screams Spider-Man 3 writing 😂😂😂😂 when is the dance sequence?!!!
Your gravelly Batman voice never ceases to amaze me
I liked her as Robin. Seeing her wasted potential was fixed a bit when she because Batgirl.
I feel this started the trend of DC killing off Teen Heroes left and right. Look at what happened in Teen Titans. They were dropping like flies.
No kidding
Steph my baaaaaby. She remains one of my very favorite characters across all comics and she gets done SO DIRTY. A friend of mine made the mistake of asking me 'so what was the deal with the one time Spoiler faked her own death?' - DEEP BREATH - - breaking out all the war game fatty trades -
And Tim was 100% cheating on Stephanie. Because Tim's an idiot who I love anyway.
And Sasha writes the whole thing better than all the people who got paid to do it. I'd read that fic.
I just want Stephanie to be treated better overall, hopefully her going back to being batgirl will be well executed. She's my favorite member of the bat-family
Stephanie Brown as Robin is probably the biggest missed opportunity DC has had among the bat-characters. If DC had been serious about making her the first female Robin and not been so focused on killing her off - over the objections of the entire writing staff - they could have easily had a huge success that would have driven sales way up. Tim had been considering retiring many times over the previous few years and didn't want to be a vigilante forever. It was natural for him to retire and let someone else take on the role. Moreover, Stephanie would have been better at being the type of Robin Tim was trying to be. His shtick was he was the 'normal' Robin because he had a dad he was keeping his superhero life a secret from and a school life he had to juggle. But he was still a rich genius just like Bruce. Moreover, the reason he became Robin in the first place was to be a certain kind of influence on Batman, a lighter influence, and at that he was a complete and utter failure. He never counterbalanced Bruce's dark side. Steph's personality was much better suited to that, as even Tim noted when he went back to being Robin, telling himself he needed to be more like her. Moreover, she was much more 'normal' than Tim since she came from a poor background and had to deal with things like an abusive father, drug-addicted mother, teen pregnancy, ect.
The plot-induced-stupidity of the entire arc is mind-boggling. Logically, since Tim was no longer Robin, he should have had more time to spend with his girlfriend, and that's the moment he stops calling her? Bruce plans to use Steph to get Tim back, but at no point does he try to address the reason Tim was forced to quit - his father - so whatever plan he had was doomed from the start. Plus he learned nothing from the Tower of Babel arc just a few years earlier and left his secret files vulnerable to being stolen by a teenager who never showed any high-tech skills whatsoever. And then there's Steph herself. Very little of what she does makes any sense and this story is the source of the whole 'Stephanie Brown is an idiot' thing. And it's so insulting that this story has her come to the 'realization' that 'this isn't a game!' In the 90s she reprimanded Argent, another teenaged superhero, for thinking it was all a game.
Steph is ultimately a victim a victim of the Didio era, where DC's creative decisions were so often made by a man who doesn't know how to tell stories other than to 'write with death,' who didn't understand that characters could still have appeal and be marketable even if they were created after 1970, and who seemed to think all readers were idiots who could only follow characters if you could explain those characters in 2 words or less. Even her lack of a memorial was a result of Didio deciding she wasn't worth being treated with any respect and DC trying to forget War Games ever happened since it was so poorly received.
If they wanted to do it for real, what they could have done was have it be Tim's idea to make Steph Robin because he thinks she can be the influence Bruce needs to not be all 'grr i am vengeance grr' all the time and because since she wasn't going to stop she'd be safer with Batman's training and protection. By having it be Tim's idea, Bruce would take it more seriously and treat her with more respect. The sad thing is that all of her development from 1992-2003 was thrown out the window. Every lesson she had ever learned, every life she had ever saved, including Bruce and Tim, all of it was discredited and rendered moot and meaningless by War Games. So when they brought her back she was essentially starting at square 1 and was treated as if she had never done anything good in her life. Even Hal Jordan got to keep his heroic history intact when he went and destroyed the universe.
Bruce never wastes any time finding new Robins.This should have been fantastic, but it wasn't it was meh.3 to 5 more Stephanies would have been perfect.
Titans had Bruce with a database of potential Robins for him to recruit.
@@Vegadra That was actually pretty fucked up. That and him pleading for Nightwing to be Robin again was... well, that broke me, I don't watch Titans anymore. People said season 3 is better, but it's not good.
Yeah, they really waisted their dynamic. It makes me sad.
As for identeties, I believe that Stephanie should get another shot as Batgirl. I really enjoyed the passing of the torch between her and Cass and getting both of them another chance in the role would be great. They deserve so much more attention than they get.
Good news! That's exactly what has happened. There is a recently concluded series called Batgirls featuring Barbara Gordon, Cassandra Caine, and Stephanie Brown. Babs pays a role in this series very similar to her Oracle role in Birds of Prey, while Cass and Steph ran as a duo, almost like sisters. Most of the action centered around the two of them. And yes, all three of them called themselves “Batgirl” and went around with the bat emblem on their chests.
For some reason one of the first things that come to mind when I think Stephanie brown is when she was tortured by Black Mask with a drill connected to a battery because of power outage. Very specific memory for no reason at all.
As bad as her treatment was during her time as Robin, it only got worse for Stephanie when she "returned from the dead." Dan DiDio really hated the character and made it his purpose to reduce her appearances at every opportunity. You can't really discuss the mismanagement of Stephanie Brown without covering DiDio's bizarre hatred of her.
Being reminded of Steph's treatment and writing during the entire Robin/Wargames arc just makes me all the more grateful for the short but beautiful time she was written by Bryan Q Miller.
Poot.
Poot
One of my favourite being-a-fan memories was being able to attend a convention during Stephanie's 'dead' time and call out a spokesperson from DC on her lack of memorial. I feel like they treated her as a gimmick from putting on the Robin suit to dying, and ignored her being her own popular character. Honestly, they do this sort of thing a lot. Too many editorial and writing decisions are driven by personal preference instead of careful consideration of what the buyers are enjoying.
Let's get rid of all legacy characters! Wait, why are people complaining? You mean you bought comics because you like legacy characters? Who does that?
Stephanie is a fabulous Robin to Bruce's Batman. She's got Dick's cheer and fun, Jason's brutal deep care, and Tim's stubbornness. I'm sad we didn't get longer with her as Robin, even though subsequent writers have salvaged her story line into using these setbacks to make her stronger. I also love the notion that Gothamites to this day argue over whether or not there was a girl Robin. It's just the kind of nonsense distraction your cryptid mythos needs. Haha.
I've always had a soft spot for Stephanie Brown since I was an avid reader of the Robin series she was part of. I enjoyed the initial "love triangle" dynamic with Ariana, Tim and her which was reminiscent of Gwen, Peter and Mary Jane to me. I wasn't reading the bat books regularly at the time of War Games but I remember being pretty annoyed when I found out they had killed her off as part of (IMO) a cheap stunt.
I really enjoyed Stephs time as batgirl and her time as robin worked well in term of establishing relationships. That being said the only way it makes sense is if you see Batman as a really shitty person and that seems like a ridiculous way to write a hero. (Also It would have been great to see her with cass more cause their dynamic is great)
I love Steph as Spoiler and Batgirl. She and Tim made a lot of sense together. I hope she comes back some day.
The worst wrinkle in her tenure is that she died because Leslie Tompkins refused to treat her injuries in order to teach Bruce a lesson. Awful awful awful.
Yeah I want to do her death as a separate video cause my word what a mess.
@@CasuallyComics omg do it
I can't with this batman voice. it's so good.
I wanna say upfront that Tim Drake's Dad reaction to Tim being Robin is something I really really enjoyed.
Tim's was a minor at the time being turned into a child soldier/superhero by Batman. From the outside it looks really bad and even in context... it ain't much better. Child endangerment being a thing.
There's a reason you don't see too many kid sidekicks anymore. Teen heroes yes. Kid sidekicks not so much. If Tim's Dad HAD somehow managed to put a bullet in Bruce, no jury would have convicted him given the circumstances.
Stephanie as Robin always seemed to me like Bruce's way to get Tim back into the fold. Like he just couldn't accept being "beaten" by Tim's dad (even if Bruce understood his point- he isn't a total psycho...yet). While Bruce did warm up to Steph over time, she started out with one strike against her. She was the Superhero equivalent of a spare tire only useful til it can be replaced.
Then she was killed off in a manner that was meant to imply that she never should have been Robin in the first place ( Batman's child soldier fetish isn't questioned at all though ).
Whatever the creators intended, the storyline did the character a great disservice which is why there was such a backlash to it. The writers oddly didn't seem to notice how much of a manipulating, vindictive SOB this storyline made Batman look like either.
I'm not sure how any of this ever got past editorial.
P.S.: Apologies for the length.
I think their editorial team live in an echo chamber and talk a lot.
Yeah. It definitely needed a rewrite
I guess we can add being dumped offscreen as another nail for the poor girl
One writer said Stephanie was marked for death by editorial, which. Is the only reason they let them make her Robin to begin with. The one writer hoped they'd change their mind. That she could stay.
Damien Scott was a fantastic artist on the Cassandra Cain Batgirl series
The amount of times Tim has been sexually assaulted is… alarming.
I remember reading War Drums and War Games back in the day and thinking, "WTF was that?" at the end. It felt really weird that Spoiler was soooo freaking seasoned and had made it so far on her own only to be tied to Bruce for whatever, not being allowed to grow during her working relationship with Bats, and ultimately dying horribly. Where was the character arc? DC's writers room allegedly wanted to make her death some kind of event, and instead, Stephanie turned out to be an overlong cameo in her own story? That's just bad.
I am new to your channel. Really loved your coverage on Tim. LOVE that you're giving attention to Steph, perhaps the most underrated and misused Bat-member over the years. Miller's Batgirl run could've run for years for me.
Edit: Also, love your Batman voice. Wildly appropriate for this Batman who was written to be such a d**k to Stephanie. Also love your take on how they could've done this better. I wish we had that version!
One of the problems with the 'hurry-up and wait' world of comics is they always seem to want to 'grow' them too quick, then never (significantly) age them afterwards. Damian could have been an exception to this as he had a good excuse for his first ten years, but then... but you're asking about Stephanie. I like Robin's, and I liked Stephanie, but year I think she deserved a much longer build-up and run.
As always thank you so very much for the video.
I always thought of Stephanie as the forgotten Robin. Whenever discussions of the Robin mantle come up she is always the one that isn't mentioned
steph kind of felt like a fan getting sucked into a comic book and living the best life and fangirling. i do love her character.
I really love steph as batgirl and i cant wait to read this story when i have the time
I freaking loved the Stephanie Brown Batgirl run. She was so much fun in that.
Stephanie could carry being Spoiler, Robin & Batgirl, each costume & persona giving her the ability to to show a facet of her character. Limiting her to one aspect of herself would be a great disservice, because she is more than a Spoiler, more than singular sidekick, more than a Legacy (Cluemaster and Bat), she is a friend to the whole Batfamily.
Every video I have to check on my boi Reverse Flash behind you. Sometimes he's there, other times he's not. Where does he go? To harass Barry? To get a soda? Turn into pure energy WB style? I need to know.
To Marry Lois Lane. Sasha did a video on that too
Spoiler was one of my favorite parts of Tim’s Robin series.
@16:34 now there's a tongue twister, saying "bad Bat-dad Bruce" 10 times 😄
Stephanie Brown is that character that I keep wanting to know more about. Thank you for making this video!
You have definitely made me a fan of Stephanie.
I think I said before but there were to many BatFamily that I just inherently hated learning about new characters,and just avoided everything they were a part of. But now ive turned a new leaf Thanks once again for such an amazing video
Loved, loved, loved Stephanie as Batgirl!! That was a great run! And l enjoy her friendship with Cass and their games of rooftop tag! Stephanie is a great character...unfortunately, most of the writers a t DC just aren't good at writing female characters. Stephanie makes every story better!
I liked your Batman voice Sasha. You did great! Good girl! Lol
I like Stephanie in her pre-52 Batgirl series, she was a lot of fun in that. Maybe some day they can do a Spoiler solo series again and bring in Oracle as a supporting character and try and re-create that dynamic, that would be pretty cool
Stephanie Brown was one of the reasons I got interested in DC Comics. Thanks, Comics Wiki.
"Yes one of them is John Travolta..." Goddamn that got me good 😂
Oh man this makes me so tempted to write my own Stephanie brown story fjfnfnd
She's still my favorite Batgirl
The whole War Games thing was a mess.
Steph should have gotten a spot in the costume case. They really is no reason not to.
Your Batman and Spiderman voices are never what I expect to hear from the characters but also a great surprise
We would absolutely read that fanfic if you ever had the time to write it
Robin-verse??? I think I want that.
Clay-verse & Lois Lane stuff set the bar high!
I literally havent even started the video but I am already excited to see what you have to say! I just love Stephanie Brown and she means so much to me! I wish that DC treated her better!
We all do. ☹
The Batman voice is perfect!
I was disappointed at how short her run as Robin was. She quickly became my favorite character in the Bat-Family as Spoiler so making her Robin was great. I remember (i think after her death) Alfred mentioned how she was able to actually get Batman to smile.Later her run as Batgirl was one of the most enjoyable story lines I've read. Thanks New 52 for ruining that.
Steph has been my favorite modern character since her first appearance as Spoiler. I was thrilled when she got the Robin promotion but it ended much too fast and much too gruesomely.
2:44 they made a 100+ issue series about Tim Drake? Never knew about this.
Personally i think they make Batman's relationship dynamics too convoluted. My headcannon is that it hinges on night in crime alley. Part of realizes the danger of being alone, and the other part is afraid of the consequences. It would explain how he gathers all these allies, and certain times cast them aside.
She was robin when I first got into comics so she always special to me and she looked the best in the costume
Please write that fanfic, and post somewhere I can read it. Love Steph, need more content.
I believe in you!
Batman: "There's always other options than to kill."
Me: "Yeah, if you have plot armor."
I think the problem with Stephanie's time as Robin was that they (DC) shoehorned it in just fo her death in War Games. What they should have done is let her period of Robin go on a bit longer, so we would think that this is the new status quo for Robin, making her death so much more impactful. Her death was really rough.
Orpheus: "Yeah, tell me alllllll about characters who get created just to be killed off."
Kole and Terra would also love to know.
Steph is amazing as Robin, Batgirl, and Spoiler, and I love them all intensely. Thanks for such a great vid!
Stephanie had such POTENTIAL as a Robin! She's the daughter of a criminal who wants to do this to get back at him and also be a BETTER PERSON! We could have seen a Bruce realising his mistakes with Jason, and doing things RIGHT this time! Their dynamic is more fun, and there are a few panels throughout her life time that show Bruce opening up to her. Plus her dynamic with Cass would have lead to some GREAT Batgirl & Robin stories!
Stephanie is my favourite Robin, not necessarily because of how it went down, but because of all the POTENTIAL there is for her story!!
And also because people like to pretend it was all fake, it never ckubted, and I live to annoy Fake Geek Gatekeepers.
I'd imagine a lot of people have pointed out that this Robin's hair makes her look like Sonic the hedgehog.
The purple track shorts 😳. Heroes wearing their alter ego’s dominant colour will never not be cute.
Man, dc dislikes the female bat family members. Oracle got crippled, stephanie died, and cassandra stupidly got turned evil
I remember reading the Detective Comics and Robin issues with Steph Robin while I would go to Walden Books.
I always favored Stephanie as Spoiler the most, but I really enjoyed her run as Batgirl too. With Robin the whole thing left a sour taste in my mouth because of how she wasn't given a fair chance. The action that got her fired was setup for her to fail. If she tried to save Batman, she disobeyed and would get fired, which is what happened. If she followed Batman's advice and stayed out of the fight and he got killed with her listening she would have gotten blamed for not stepping in when she should have. Stephanie was in a position where no matter what she was going to lose. There was potential with her as Robin but it was all a waste. I ultimately prefer her the most as Spoiler as it's her own identity so her being part of the Batgirl group fits nicely.
Stephanie Brown is my favourite Batgirl after Barbara Gordon (who I much prefer in her Oracle guise). I’m so glad to see her back in Infinite Frontier, it’s been too long! 🦇
Your Batman voice friggin kills me… well done!
Another great vid, which raises a question or two. Was Tim or Stephanie a Lois Lane ex? I really liked Stephanie's time as Batgirl, especially the friendship with Kara.
Really liked her as Batgirl!
To be fair, the Batmobile (current one, not the classic or the silver age Plymouth) is big and heavy enough to be classified as heavy machinery, requiring at least a CDL if not a specialized operators license.
So much more could be done with Stephanie Brown as Batgirl. If they went live action I’d love Amy Johnston in the role.
You think Greta Gerwig should direct it? I think she'd love Stephanie.
Justice for Steph and Cass!
Also, hell yeah get the sponsor cash!!!
Stephanie was still my favorite Batgirl
It didn't come up in your video, because it obviously wasnt relevant, but in the excellent Kevin Smith Green Arrow which features his return to life, Batman helps GA out uncovering the secret and Stephanie is there and there is some witty banter
Really enjoyed the Stephanie Brown Batgirl series -- ticked me off when they decided Babs suddenly got better and Stephanie disappeared without even a thank you.
Honestly, if Stephanie got her own TV show (ideally helmed by BQM and Greta Gerwig), that would make my LIFE.
Worth pointing out: Really seems like Tim has had some serious trauma involving the women in his life
And people are mad that he's dating men.
Wait! ”Hiring” & ”firing” of a Robin? Does this mean the Robins were like employees of Batman? Or is it only a figure of speech??
PS: Batman is kind of petty for an adult.
I adored how the Nolan Batman voice became the the fav Batman fan voice of the internet thanks for the fun video
Delicious Robin dust, deep breath.
I think Stephanie would have worked as a permanent Robin. I'm sad that they didn't even try.
The Batman voice alone is worth watching through this. Also, I love Steph. DC never knew how to treat her, and still doesn't it seems.
It was actually this arc that first got me regularly reading monthly DC comics. I had recently started venturing into comic book shops for first time to pick up Buffy Vamp Slayer Spin off comic ‘Frey’ and I saw a cover with Stephanie on cover in Robin outfit with “the girl wonder” and that hit me wanting to know what was going on there, so I bought it.
I remember reading that arc as it came out, I worked at a comic shop. Everyone was a bit confused by the whole thing.
I NEVER knew Batman sounded like that, I love it! ;)