It's actually mad to think that kids who are currently teenagers were not alive the last time a good MMO came out. As far as they're concerned it's either a dead genre or a genre they've never even heard of.
I think they simply got told a MMO is those "shared world" 4 people in gameplay areas and about 20 in town areas with no meaningful interaction. So they think they've played a MMO.
@@kellywilson137 MHW is like a nice hub based mmo with how much player interaction is in the game. I made a few good friends on steam I still hang out with ya know?
When i was growing up i was always quite invested in MMORPGS, but never really had the chance to properly get into them. Being Gen Z i kinda just never got in during most their golden ages and trying to go to them now feels kinda wrong. I've got a good 100+ hours in WoW but its just not there for me, unlike AoC which is looking to be everything i've ever wanted
The whole point of an MMO is it flips the power balance of real life. The kid who lives in his mother's basement and plays all day wrecking people with jobs and kids is what makes the game desirable. It's very important that the world is persistent and time and skill is rewarded and there is no way to use your real-world power to affect the game power. The world needs to be dangerous and we need strong mechanics to keep factions and skirmishes somewhat balanced.
It's more about young people overusing the receptors responsible for instant gratification, making it harder for them to focus on simple tasks. Why spend hours working towards a reward when they can just open TikTok or another app for instant satisfaction? That's why I believe MMOs won't appeal to the younger generation - they have easier access to quick dopamine hits elsewhere.
Back in the days in WoW Vanilla, my guild leader was a "problem kid" who was allowed by his mother to play as much as he would like, since then she at least knew where he was and that he was not out hurting himself or others. Of course, that's an extreme case, but it helped him feel that he succeeded in something and got recognition.
About inter-generation gameplay : I am hopeful that the Ashes community will be cool and helpful with very young players (which is really not always the case in PvP games!). I have seen that games that have a social aspect can be very formative and positive (if we can avoid some bad drama and exclusion). - an old gamer (for MMOs, I stared with Shadowbane and then Darkfall believe it or not)
As a 23 year old I have a lot to say on this. I’m with roariorr A lot of gen Z understand what mmos are. And I think Fortnite currently is satisfying that niche due to the presentation of the lobby. I think with great social systems (and taverns) AOC will have great appeal to younger generations . If black myth can pull 2 million I believe that ashes can it’s just a critical mass thing.
Incredibly based take from raoriorr Also I played WOW first time I was like 10 because the characters are so cool, which I why I hope intrepid has a dope cinematic team. But I did play 6 hours a day and the grind was okay. Also Fortnite does have a grind on like a month long time frame either way battle passes
I'm a gen Z and I'll be in game when Alpha 2 launches. I agree with you burns in the sense that once the younger generation sees how good ashes will be, they will play and bring their friends along with them. Many of my friends and those around my age have seen, through friends and family the joys that came with playing WoW in the early days and wishes they were a bit older to jump in on the fun as well. Many of us are dying to jump at the chance to experience that in ashes
I also have a 9 year old step son. Though he isn't interested in anything that isn't Roblox or Minecraft related, I believe in his teen years he will come to enjoy an MMO like ashes
I've worked with elementary school kids for 7 years now, and none of them have heard of an MMO. I'm very curious if they'll pick it up once it releases, I personally think most won't. I think they'll need an older sibling or parent to introduce them to the mechanisms of the genre, because it might look too unfamiliar to them to try it out.
I believe the pvp centric model Ashes presents will be an attractive feature for the younger crowd. Many seem to be very competitive; hopefully that aspect alone will draw the attention of a lot of the younger generation.
lol I love Jay "I don't like young people" and Anie always "this is going to sound bad, but" ;) I look forward to seeing how people react to what will definitely be a very new experience for them in Ashes. There are enough of us not-so-young players to make Ashes a success. It would be nice to see the WoWbrains realize just how much fun a legit MMO can be once they adapt. Like Roar said - the kids can and will adapt and end up rocking it.
I 100% would have wanted to get into ashes as a kid. I played rift, neverwinter, and one other that i forget the name of before i was 12. They just weren't very good, and didn't have many players. I have been looking for a very social and immersive mmo to play ever since I played my first survival game, around 13 years old. I am 20 now so i would think that there are many teenagers that would be looking to play ashes.
I know we talk about gen alpha and fortnite a lot, but i think the minecraft kids are another demographic that will really sink their teeth into ashes. That's a game entirely about delayed gratification and letting you have impact on the game world, so I'm excited to see how those kids approach ashes.
As a Gen Z i can pretty easily speak on this. Don't make it expensive, we don't have the money and all those younger then I (Im 22) are not gonna have the money and nor will their parents, unless they're lucky, to be spending £15 a month on a game. That's the short and sweet of it, if you notice almost everything we play is either free or a 1 time payment. Yes having things that can keep attention spans is good but how is that gonna work if we can't play the game because we're broke? I am HIGHLY looking forward to Ashes of creation but its gonna be coming out at a point where im not gonna have enough money to play it because im studying and trying to buy food. Same will be for a lot of my generation and the next.
@@adjacent-smith i had a 1050 for the longest time but for what this game is going to be and when it comes out i'll be quite surprised if that card lasts that long! Not to say its not alright but that things gotta be getting old by now. I upgraded a year ago to an RTX 3060ti which im hoping is gonna last me till 2030 XD
Pantheon rise of the fallen is also on the rise, with an "early access" in December, and also have great game play and vision - That is, if you don't require Unreal Engine 5 graphics on everything you play. And i can honestly say i have the same feeling when i'm logging into Pantheon, as i got when i logged in to Vanilla WoW 2004, so that train have not left the station for me at least. I just think the right game needs to come along, to give you that great feeling again. And i hope Ashes of creation and Pantheon rise of the fallen will be those games for many, 'cause both are needed in the today's MMOrpg space. Btw gen X here ..And also Pantheon rise of the Fallen will NOT be pay to win. And i agree monthly sub is absolute the best monetization. Video games is better for you, then sitting in the sofa and staring at the tv ~3 hour a day. Cheers.
I think the way Ashes is set up isn't intended for modern generations. The grind & patience that Ashes is proposing isn't something we see a ton of in modern gaming.
Can’t see the younger generation latching on to a MMO unless it was completely revolutionary. It’s just a generational thing IMO. The internet is not the same and there is sooo many games. Ashes would have to have a viral cultural moment to even hit their radar.
The old MMO did not live up to the promise of the games because of computing and internet limits of 20 years ago so the newer games just striped out all of the depth that just did not work. But with modern severs and much better internet its time to bring back all the fetchers that barely worked with the return of the depth I think the young will come back
I got some people... like Pen.. who are :) I mean Dygz might have me beat. Either way, the kids will play if the game is good, if the game is fun, if the game is rewarding. If you build it, they will come. AND like BG3, they will come out of the woodwork, from places we thought forgotten, and CRUSH people's understanding of how many "MMO" players there are. 3m at launch Steven, be ready.
Not gonna lie, there's a part of me that likes the idea of fewer Gen Z and Alpha kids playing Ashes. Lol. But also as someone who has kids that I really want to play games with... It's a double-edged sword. Lol. And in my opinion, the best way to get those generations to play Ashes is to literally just play with them. Introduce them to new things. We don't need to normalize greedy business practices to attract them just because they grew up with that. We can certainly do away with them and focus on what games are actually about. Having an amazing time with the game or with others that creates lasting memories. That alone should attract any person, regardless of age, to the kind of game Ashes is trying to be.
Today's kids really don't have good MMOs... If Ashes flops, it's likely the case that these kids won't know how to make a good MMO as adults; it will be a lost art.
I think a lot of people connect with MMOs cos of the social features, regardless of age. A lot of MMOs don't have good social design these days. They have become more solo orientated or have poorly designed systems. Name the last good guild system in an mmo. AoC is aiming to design core systems to support community engagement. When players begin to get involved in that and start making social connections - the memorable experiences will follow. I think younger folks yearn for more social experiences, especially after COVID.
Wow's token is a for sure P2W. It may not be obvious for some people. However, for the first time in the history of the game you can pay $40 for 3 days early access which is obviously P2W. I thought it was pretty obvious that New World had P2W as well, but I guess I was wrong. I guess the main problem with P2W is there is not a clear agreed upon definition. IMO it's any advantage including time is P2W.
I have a question about New World. The cash shop can you buy anything that gives you stat or damage bonuses? I do not play New World but I thought this was a thing, which if it is that is the definition of pay to win. If this is not the case that's a good thing.
The most interesting point is where he says that New World is not pay2win. Are you kidding me bro? NewWorld who has a battle pass which gives not only cosmetics but ingame gear and stuff and the only way you could obtain a mount in 1st battlepass like mounts are essential but NewWorld is giving them for money.
SO many L takes here, Older Gen Z here (Which is 21 not 13) and most other people my age interested in ashes are interested because we developed a desire and interest for a good MMORPG from Media we watch (Anime for example is a heavy influence) and hearing from our parents about cool moments they had playing MMO's back in the day Some of these people need to stop making themselves stereotypes, the "Young kids are stupid and only want microtransactions" attitude is so stupid
The only thing that sux about subs, for Americans it is 15 pm fixed, but in places like here in Australia its currently almost 23, and as we know currency changes, they need a flat rate of some sort, and before any one asks, it was said it was going to be set at USD for now, no indication to change. P.s. the guy you interview with the painter in the back... its distracting bro, i keep wondering how he is going to do something, and i forget to listen to you haha.
@@TheCopiumClinic In 2077, but jokes aside, steven said nothing planned yet, so kind of sucks, but we testers get a heap of pre paid time, so all good there hey, i say prepaid because its not free really, what we paid, we get in game credit and time, people don't seem to get that. Thanks for the reply Doc Cope, i fell better now.
Ashes will be Rated M. As much as you'd want to bring in the younger generation it's not being made for them. If it's hooks the older generation the youngins will follow.
Kids aren't going to play this. It's too slow/indepth for good content generation and has little potential for meme or challenges content. Their future lies in gta6.. Ashes future is 30k concurrent players if they're lucky (which honestly isn't bad in current market) unless they open to console play
If it ever comes out, Ashes will be a mid, niche PvP game. The only thing that might have caused another upheaval in the genre was the Riot MMO and that got canned, so...
MMO gamers are outliers in the whole of gaming, most gamers around our gens play fifa, CoD, GTA... It's the same with gen Z, they are playing dotas, gachas and fornite, but like in any generation there will be outliers, those that enjoyed BG3, those who read litRPG... Ashes doesn't need to do anything, these people will come if the game is good, that's all.
Also Ashes is shooting for a Mature rating so it isn’t meant for gen alpha at all even if they will have access since game ratings are generally meaningless but technically at least alpha’s shouldn’t be playing Ashes lol. But Ashes will hopefully be their first actual quality mmo. A decent box fee and then monthly sub of ~$20 is the only viable way for mmo’s to be monetized fairly and generate revenue for the development of the game and new content. Micro transactions, even if only cosmetic, are unfair and to variable and is the gateway to p2w whether intentionally introduced or not.
Ashes of creation is super slow... compare it to fortnight, compare it to valo , or genshin, its just slow moving for boomers. It kinda looks old too, there ins't much character development to do husbands and waifus. Etc
Sorry but you can not get that MMO experience from anything but an MMO and there has not been a decent MMO released in over a decade. The MMO players being in hibernation is so on point I have 20 or so guild mates I am in regular contact with and no more than 2 or 3 of them play MMO's atm.
It's actually mad to think that kids who are currently teenagers were not alive the last time a good MMO came out. As far as they're concerned it's either a dead genre or a genre they've never even heard of.
I think they simply got told a MMO is those "shared world" 4 people in gameplay areas and about 20 in town areas with no meaningful interaction.
So they think they've played a MMO.
@@kellywilson137 MHW is like a nice hub based mmo with how much player interaction is in the game. I made a few good friends on steam I still hang out with ya know?
@@Tory-JJ mhw isnt an mmo.
When i was growing up i was always quite invested in MMORPGS, but never really had the chance to properly get into them. Being Gen Z i kinda just never got in during most their golden ages and trying to go to them now feels kinda wrong. I've got a good 100+ hours in WoW but its just not there for me, unlike AoC which is looking to be everything i've ever wanted
The whole point of an MMO is it flips the power balance of real life. The kid who lives in his mother's basement and plays all day wrecking people with jobs and kids is what makes the game desirable.
It's very important that the world is persistent and time and skill is rewarded and there is no way to use your real-world power to affect the game power. The world needs to be dangerous and we need strong mechanics to keep factions and skirmishes somewhat balanced.
It's more about young people overusing the receptors responsible for instant gratification, making it harder for them to focus on simple tasks. Why spend hours working towards a reward when they can just open TikTok or another app for instant satisfaction? That's why I believe MMOs won't appeal to the younger generation - they have easier access to quick dopamine hits elsewhere.
Back in the days in WoW Vanilla, my guild leader was a "problem kid" who was allowed by his mother to play as much as he would like, since then she at least knew where he was and that he was not out hurting himself or others. Of course, that's an extreme case, but it helped him feel that he succeeded in something and got recognition.
About inter-generation gameplay : I am hopeful that the Ashes community will be cool and helpful with very young players (which is really not always the case in PvP games!). I have seen that games that have a social aspect can be very formative and positive (if we can avoid some bad drama and exclusion).
- an old gamer (for MMOs, I stared with Shadowbane and then Darkfall believe it or not)
Doing great work here Doc, episode length is great, creators are great. keep up the good work
As a 23 year old I have a lot to say on this.
I’m with roariorr
A lot of gen Z understand what mmos are. And I think Fortnite currently is satisfying that niche due to the presentation of the lobby. I think with great social systems (and taverns) AOC will have great appeal to younger generations . If black myth can pull 2 million I believe that ashes can it’s just a critical mass thing.
Incredibly based take from raoriorr
Also I played WOW first time I was like 10 because the characters are so cool, which I why I hope intrepid has a dope cinematic team.
But I did play 6 hours a day and the grind was okay.
Also Fortnite does have a grind on like a month long time frame either way battle passes
I'm a gen Z and I'll be in game when Alpha 2 launches.
I agree with you burns in the sense that once the younger generation sees how good ashes will be, they will play and bring their friends along with them.
Many of my friends and those around my age have seen, through friends and family the joys that came with playing WoW in the early days and wishes they were a bit older to jump in on the fun as well. Many of us are dying to jump at the chance to experience that in ashes
I also have a 9 year old step son. Though he isn't interested in anything that isn't Roblox or Minecraft related, I believe in his teen years he will come to enjoy an MMO like ashes
These kinds of discussions are so wholesome and positive, refreshing change of pace. Thank you.
Im Gen Z but on the older portion, we had WoW growing up. It was great, there hasnt been anything to overtake it since 2008.
Ashes is my hopium.
im 19 and most people my age love pvp, gotta be able to shit on someone in a arena and have leaderboards or something that they can show off
I've worked with elementary school kids for 7 years now, and none of them have heard of an MMO. I'm very curious if they'll pick it up once it releases, I personally think most won't. I think they'll need an older sibling or parent to introduce them to the mechanisms of the genre, because it might look too unfamiliar to them to try it out.
I believe the pvp centric model Ashes presents will be an attractive feature for the younger crowd. Many seem to be very competitive; hopefully that aspect alone will draw the attention of a lot of the younger generation.
lol I love Jay "I don't like young people" and Anie always "this is going to sound bad, but" ;) I look forward to seeing how people react to what will definitely be a very new experience for them in Ashes. There are enough of us not-so-young players to make Ashes a success. It would be nice to see the WoWbrains realize just how much fun a legit MMO can be once they adapt. Like Roar said - the kids can and will adapt and end up rocking it.
I 100% would have wanted to get into ashes as a kid. I played rift, neverwinter, and one other that i forget the name of before i was 12. They just weren't very good, and didn't have many players. I have been looking for a very social and immersive mmo to play ever since I played my first survival game, around 13 years old. I am 20 now so i would think that there are many teenagers that would be looking to play ashes.
I know we talk about gen alpha and fortnite a lot, but i think the minecraft kids are another demographic that will really sink their teeth into ashes. That's a game entirely about delayed gratification and letting you have impact on the game world, so I'm excited to see how those kids approach ashes.
As a Gen Z i can pretty easily speak on this. Don't make it expensive, we don't have the money and all those younger then I (Im 22) are not gonna have the money and nor will their parents, unless they're lucky, to be spending £15 a month on a game. That's the short and sweet of it, if you notice almost everything we play is either free or a 1 time payment. Yes having things that can keep attention spans is good but how is that gonna work if we can't play the game because we're broke? I am HIGHLY looking forward to Ashes of creation but its gonna be coming out at a point where im not gonna have enough money to play it because im studying and trying to buy food. Same will be for a lot of my generation and the next.
My kids 14 and all his friends are on pc. His (mine) is the best of them all and it's running 1050ti
@@adjacent-smith i had a 1050 for the longest time but for what this game is going to be and when it comes out i'll be quite surprised if that card lasts that long! Not to say its not alright but that things gotta be getting old by now. I upgraded a year ago to an RTX 3060ti which im hoping is gonna last me till 2030 XD
Pantheon rise of the fallen is also on the rise, with an "early access" in December, and also have great game play and vision - That is, if you don't require Unreal Engine 5 graphics on everything you play. And i can honestly say i have the same feeling when i'm logging into Pantheon, as i got when i logged in to Vanilla WoW 2004, so that train have not left the station for me at least. I just think the right game needs to come along, to give you that great feeling again. And i hope Ashes of creation and Pantheon rise of the fallen will be those games for many, 'cause both are needed in the today's MMOrpg space. Btw gen X here ..And also Pantheon rise of the Fallen will NOT be pay to win. And i agree monthly sub is absolute the best monetization. Video games is better for you, then sitting in the sofa and staring at the tv ~3 hour a day. Cheers.
MMO’s take time and dedication to see a fun outcome. a lot of times it’s boring farming and young kids are just not into that.
I think the way Ashes is set up isn't intended for modern generations. The grind & patience that Ashes is proposing isn't something we see a ton of in modern gaming.
Can’t see the younger generation latching on to a MMO unless it was completely revolutionary. It’s just a generational thing IMO. The internet is not the same and there is sooo many games. Ashes would have to have a viral cultural moment to even hit their radar.
The old MMO did not live up to the promise of the games because of computing and internet limits of 20 years ago so the newer games just striped out all of the depth that just did not work. But with modern severs and much better internet its time to bring back all the fetchers that barely worked with the return of the depth I think the young will come back
I got some people... like Pen.. who are :) I mean Dygz might have me beat. Either way, the kids will play if the game is good, if the game is fun, if the game is rewarding. If you build it, they will come. AND like BG3, they will come out of the woodwork, from places we thought forgotten, and CRUSH people's understanding of how many "MMO" players there are. 3m at launch Steven, be ready.
Thanks Doc, excellent discussion (as always).
AoC scope: methinks they're on track and even have a few surprises up their sleeves.
Nice video!
Instant gratification and mmo’s do not offer that. I don’t think either age group will without peer pressure
Doctor Gregory Victor agrees.
Yall just forgot that guold wars 2 exists lmao. Great combat. Feels good to play.
Not gonna lie, there's a part of me that likes the idea of fewer Gen Z and Alpha kids playing Ashes. Lol. But also as someone who has kids that I really want to play games with... It's a double-edged sword. Lol. And in my opinion, the best way to get those generations to play Ashes is to literally just play with them. Introduce them to new things. We don't need to normalize greedy business practices to attract them just because they grew up with that. We can certainly do away with them and focus on what games are actually about. Having an amazing time with the game or with others that creates lasting memories. That alone should attract any person, regardless of age, to the kind of game Ashes is trying to be.
Today's kids really don't have good MMOs... If Ashes flops, it's likely the case that these kids won't know how to make a good MMO as adults; it will be a lost art.
I think a lot of people connect with MMOs cos of the social features, regardless of age. A lot of MMOs don't have good social design these days. They have become more solo orientated or have poorly designed systems. Name the last good guild system in an mmo. AoC is aiming to design core systems to support community engagement. When players begin to get involved in that and start making social connections - the memorable experiences will follow. I think younger folks yearn for more social experiences, especially after COVID.
the beard grew back quick
Wow's token is a for sure P2W. It may not be obvious for some people. However, for the first time in the history of the game you can pay $40 for 3 days early access which is obviously P2W. I thought it was pretty obvious that New World had P2W as well, but I guess I was wrong. I guess the main problem with P2W is there is not a clear agreed upon definition. IMO it's any advantage including time is P2W.
I have a question about New World. The cash shop can you buy anything that gives you stat or damage bonuses? I do not play New World but I thought this was a thing, which if it is that is the definition of pay to win. If this is not the case that's a good thing.
The most interesting point is where he says that New World is not pay2win. Are you kidding me bro? NewWorld who has a battle pass which gives not only cosmetics but ingame gear and stuff and the only way you could obtain a mount in 1st battlepass like mounts are essential but NewWorld is giving them for money.
SO many L takes here, Older Gen Z here (Which is 21 not 13) and most other people my age interested in ashes are interested because we developed a desire and interest for a good MMORPG from Media we watch (Anime for example is a heavy influence) and hearing from our parents about cool moments they had playing MMO's back in the day
Some of these people need to stop making themselves stereotypes, the "Young kids are stupid and only want microtransactions" attitude is so stupid
They don't have the attention span for an old style mmo. You can see this with the tic tock generation.
The only thing that sux about subs, for Americans it is 15 pm fixed, but in places like here in Australia its currently almost 23, and as we know currency changes, they need a flat rate of some sort, and before any one asks, it was said it was going to be set at USD for now, no indication to change.
P.s. the guy you interview with the painter in the back... its distracting bro, i keep wondering how he is going to do something, and i forget to listen to you haha.
@@rjswas they’ll have regional pricing at launch though!
@@TheCopiumClinic In 2077, but jokes aside, steven said nothing planned yet, so kind of sucks, but we testers get a heap of pre paid time, so all good there hey, i say prepaid because its not free really, what we paid, we get in game credit and time, people don't seem to get that.
Thanks for the reply Doc Cope, i fell better now.
He'll be chopping down trees... Bruh you should've really stopped the sentence there, what the hell LMAO
Oh no! Copium?! Llama!
My kid is 10 and she prefers to role play on Roblox - berry lane or whatever it is called.
Just tell they can buy a house/appartment in game since there not getting one in real life :p
Little do these kids know, they won't get to play ashes until their in their 40's :)
I think ashes is good but is still the same as the other ones. I would like to see the next generation of mmos.
Ashes will be Rated M. As much as you'd want to bring in the younger generation it's not being made for them. If it's hooks the older generation the youngins will follow.
Kids aren't going to play this. It's too slow/indepth for good content generation and has little potential for meme or challenges content.
Their future lies in gta6.. Ashes future is 30k concurrent players if they're lucky (which honestly isn't bad in current market) unless they open to console play
If it ever comes out, Ashes will be a mid, niche PvP game. The only thing that might have caused another upheaval in the genre was the Riot MMO and that got canned, so...
Riot doesn't really innovate. They just take other popular games like Dota 2 and CounterStrike and give it a cartoony makeover.
MMO gamers are outliers in the whole of gaming, most gamers around our gens play fifa, CoD, GTA... It's the same with gen Z, they are playing dotas, gachas and fornite, but like in any generation there will be outliers, those that enjoyed BG3, those who read litRPG... Ashes doesn't need to do anything, these people will come if the game is good, that's all.
Also Ashes is shooting for a Mature rating so it isn’t meant for gen alpha at all even if they will have access since game ratings are generally meaningless but technically at least alpha’s shouldn’t be playing Ashes lol.
But Ashes will hopefully be their first actual quality mmo.
A decent box fee and then monthly sub of ~$20 is the only viable way for mmo’s to be monetized fairly and generate revenue for the development of the game and new content. Micro transactions, even if only cosmetic, are unfair and to variable and is the gateway to p2w whether intentionally introduced or not.
lol does anyone think gen alpha and gen z will be into this MMO?
Ashes of creation is super slow... compare it to fortnight, compare it to valo , or genshin, its just slow moving for boomers.
It kinda looks old too, there ins't much character development to do husbands and waifus. Etc
didnt these generations try new world? too bad it was shit furthing their notion that mmorpg are complete shit
Sorry but you can not get that MMO experience from anything but an MMO and there has not been a decent MMO released in over a decade.
The MMO players being in hibernation is so on point I have 20 or so guild mates I am in regular contact with and no more than 2 or 3 of them play MMO's atm.