I am always amazed how the old timers who knew very little about genes, but were master breeders through observation, selection and an intimate knowledge of their breed.
Guys.. I’ll be honest here. It’s so easy to start with a single pair of birds. All my lines started from single pairs, several of which were brother and sister. As long as you are only breeding the very best individuals in all aspects, size, confirmation, health, vigor, production, and performance. You should never have to bring in new blood from another farm, even if they are distantly related, if you are paying attention to all aspects of your birds. Just my two sense, from my personal experience.
I have had some luck with mating half sibs. Yes I got some culls but also some really nice birds. I have 5 lines, so I have my own outcrosses (which are still distantly related).
Question from a backyard chicken guy. I've been seeing APA certified breeds like Buff Rocks for example. Are those birds better examples of the breed or a marketing thing hatcheries are using now? 👍🙏✌️
To get that certification an APA judge must inspect the breeder flock and certify that a minimum of 50% of them meet the minimum qualifications for the breed and variety. Just like when you buy birds from an individual you should never assume that it will guarantee the birds will be of very high quality.
The breeder that I work with, and has many more years experience than me, said that with our breed (Partridge Chanteclers) you will find the smaller hens are better layers. I have found that to be true. The problem is the big birds win at the shows.
Genetics is genetics.. you can't change the genetics by breeding at different ages.. age my be a concern of whether they will breed.. & the fertility, but age of parents will not affect the attributes of the offspring
Fore sure, if you are going to pullet breeding you need to be careful, make sure they are old enough and laying consistant quality eggs on a regular basis. Funny thing, people have told me if you pullet breed, you get smaller birds. But the biggest bird I ever bred, he was pullet bred and a monster. His type is not the best, so likely I will move him on. But he is a freak.
Inbreeding is the only way to determine if a bird is a carrier of undesirable traits. It is also the only way to produce desirable or clean out the undesirable traits. Mating 2 birds that both show an undesirable trait will produce nothing but bird that show that trait. A bird that shows the trait mated to a bird that only carries the same trait will produce 75% offspring showing that trait & 25% that only carry that trait. 2 birds that only carry the trait but do not show, will produce 50% that carry, 25% that show & 25% that are clean of that trait. A bird that is clean of a targeted undesirable trait mated to a bird that carries that target trait will produce 75% clean of that trait & 25% that carry that trait. Mating a bird that shows a bad trait mated to a bird clean of that trait will produce offspring that all carry that trait, but none that carry and none clean. Mating 2 birds that are clean of a target trait will produce all offspring clean of that trait. With that info you can take a bird that shows a target trait, desired or undesired, & mate it to a bird clean of an undesired trait, or shows a desired trait, and eventually produce birds with that desired trait or clean of undesired traits. With this info you can determine if you are cleaning out a bad trait, or building upon a desired trait. You will need to make many selective parings to get to the end result & could take decades to get there. Some say the difference between line breeding and inbreeding is.. if it works it's line breeding... if it fails it is inbreeding. This is not true. My definition of inbreeding is father daughter.. siblings.. mother son... line breeding is everything else but that keeping the breeding within a family of cousins etc.. grandfather to granddaughter etc. to me is where the distinction gets murky.
The worse possible out come from any mating is making an undesirable trait show. There really is no worse... Now if there is a gene trait that makes a bird only have 1 eye or one leg or no top beak or a hole in it's skull showing its brain or some freak gene, & both parents show or carry that trait, then yes you can have what some might consider a "worse possible scenario" If you have a great looking &/or producing bird but it carries an undesirable trait, & you pair it with another with the same, then you can have a mix of good and bad... it depends on what you want to clean out.. or bring in to the gene pool. You could have a freak rooster that shows every bad trait imaginable, but may have 1 trait that cannot be found anywhere else but this on rooster, like eyes that glowed in the dark lol... You could take this rooster and breed it into a flock and then you would have to breed out all the bad traits, retaining that one desired trait. That would be one hell of a task that could take decades. But doable.
I am always amazed how the old timers who knew very little about genes, but were master breeders through observation, selection and an intimate knowledge of their breed.
Excellent discussion!
Guys.. I’ll be honest here. It’s so easy to start with a single pair of birds. All my lines started from single pairs, several of which were brother and sister. As long as you are only breeding the very best individuals in all aspects, size, confirmation, health, vigor, production, and performance. You should never have to bring in new blood from another farm, even if they are distantly related, if you are paying attention to all aspects of your birds. Just my two sense, from my personal experience.
I agree, this has been my experience as well. I get the best results from full and half sibling matings.
I start with two bird an breed back the daddy to him daughter an granddaughter an going to breed back the granddaughter to them grandfather
Appreciate you tackling this topic for us newbies
I have had some luck with mating half sibs. Yes I got some culls but also some really nice birds. I have 5 lines, so I have my own outcrosses (which are still distantly related).
Keep this up love this ❤❤❤❤❤❤
Question from a backyard chicken guy. I've been seeing APA certified breeds like Buff Rocks for example. Are those birds better examples of the breed or a marketing thing hatcheries are using now? 👍🙏✌️
To get that certification an APA judge must inspect the breeder flock and certify that a minimum of 50% of them meet the minimum qualifications for the breed and variety. Just like when you buy birds from an individual you should never assume that it will guarantee the birds will be of very high quality.
@@poultrykeepers360 Thank you that's helpful.
Thank you for your help. This is very helpful I definitely would like to know more about purefing the blood line
Hello from Ontario!
The breeder that I work with, and has many more years experience than me, said that with our breed (Partridge Chanteclers) you will find the smaller hens are better layers. I have found that to be true. The problem is the big birds win at the shows.
What is the youngest you would breed a pullet at ?
Does breeding them to young cause a decrease in size of next generation?
Genetics is genetics.. you can't change the genetics by breeding at different ages.. age my be a concern of whether they will breed.. & the fertility, but age of parents will not affect the attributes of the offspring
Fore sure, if you are going to pullet breeding you need to be careful, make sure they are old enough and laying consistant quality eggs on a regular basis. Funny thing, people have told me if you pullet breed, you get smaller birds. But the biggest bird I ever bred, he was pullet bred and a monster. His type is not the best, so likely I will move him on. But he is a freak.
Inbreeding is the only way to determine if a bird is a carrier of undesirable traits. It is also the only way to produce desirable or clean out the undesirable traits. Mating 2 birds that both show an undesirable trait will produce nothing but bird that show that trait. A bird that shows the trait mated to a bird that only carries the same trait will produce 75% offspring showing that trait & 25% that only carry that trait. 2 birds that only carry the trait but do not show, will produce 50% that carry, 25% that show & 25% that are clean of that trait. A bird that is clean of a targeted undesirable trait mated to a bird that carries that target trait will produce 75% clean of that trait & 25% that carry that trait.
Mating a bird that shows a bad trait mated to a bird clean of that trait will produce offspring that all carry that trait, but none that carry and none clean. Mating 2 birds that are clean of a target trait will produce all offspring clean of that trait. With that info you can take a bird that shows a target trait, desired or undesired, & mate it to a bird clean of an undesired trait, or shows a desired trait, and eventually produce birds with that desired trait or clean of undesired traits. With this info you can determine if you are cleaning out a bad trait, or building upon a desired trait. You will need to make many selective parings to get to the end result & could take decades to get there.
Some say the difference between line breeding and inbreeding is.. if it works it's line breeding... if it fails it is inbreeding. This is not true. My definition of inbreeding is father daughter.. siblings.. mother son... line breeding is everything else but that keeping the breeding within a family of cousins etc.. grandfather to granddaughter etc. to me is where the distinction gets murky.
The worse possible out come from any mating is making an undesirable trait show. There really is no worse... Now if there is a gene trait that makes a bird only have 1 eye or one leg or no top beak or a hole in it's skull showing its brain or some freak gene, & both parents show or carry that trait, then yes you can have what some might consider a "worse possible scenario" If you have a great looking &/or producing bird but it carries an undesirable trait, & you pair it with another with the same, then you can have a mix of good and bad... it depends on what you want to clean out.. or bring in to the gene pool. You could have a freak rooster that shows every bad trait imaginable, but may have 1 trait that cannot be found anywhere else but this on rooster, like eyes that glowed in the dark lol... You could take this rooster and breed it into a flock and then you would have to breed out all the bad traits, retaining that one desired trait. That would be one hell of a task that could take decades. But doable.