I really want to talk about inbreeding which in it's self is not bad. But being a history buff, I have articles of chicken breeders from the early 1900's that advocate strongly for keeping your line pure, no outside blood. But inbreeding is cumulative and the negatives are also cumulative. So in the early days, when many chicken breeds were developed as composites of other breeds, there was much room for inbreeding, but one hundred years later, we have to be so much more careful. It's really not a big deal, I line breed and clan mate to achieve my goals, but you have to be mindful, the biggest thing we see with chickens that are getting too inbred is poor fertility, but one outcross can fix that, but it also can mess up your birds, so your source for outcross stock is very important. Great presentation!
I agree. But I have also heard that when line breeding many people hit the wall of "problems" (which in my opinion were actually always there just hidden recessively and the line breeding brought them to the surface) this is where most people freak out bc of all the bad things they've heard and instead of continuing forward with line breeding, where they would actually start seeing results then, they bring in new blood and ruin their line.
@@amberemma6136 That an outcross could ruin your line is true. But if your line is going down the tubes, an outcross might save it. It is about assessing what recessives are dragging your line down and is it possible to cull enough to eliminate it or perhaps the best way is outcross to reduce the frequency of that fault appearing, that you might have more generations to chip away at that fault, rather than destroy the whole flock. I line breed and outcross, keep very good records, I don't assume that an outcross will fix my problem, I look at the results over generations, and have the ability to eliminate or perpetuate any blood line in my flock. I have 4 distinct lines and each has their good and bad points. I use them as tools to improve each other, but I keep track and cull hard. I have a good line that has given me many grand champions, but if I breed them pure, they tend to get too light in colour, so I have worked at developing a darker outside line, that I can add every third or forth generation and that has worked out well for me.
@@oldwaysrisingfarm after watching this whole series I’m surprised that you aren’t already on a few of the Facebook pages that I’m on. Several seem right up your alley. My free range birds have a lot of the traits that you are breeding for but guess what? I rarely find their eggs. They roost in the barn but I think the raccoons find most of the eggs in the woods. Maybe if I locked them up half the day more would lay in the barn. I think a lot of those traits keep them half wild.
@@RobG7aChattTN I have tried; since it is my own youtube page they all kick me off for "self promotion" any time I try and share something, so I just gave up on facebook and left the platform. For some reason people thing there is big money in youtube and money makes people stupid. If you are interested, I will share that after 2 years and 197 videos youtube has provided me exactly 0 dollars! But, most facebook groups still slap me away for trying to promote a business when I try and share information that way. I work a retail job to support this teaching effort, and don't have time to make the videos and then go and re-type all this stuff on a facebook page separately, so I am just done with them.
@@oldwaysrisingfarm yeah, I got banned from one of the most popular chicken groups because someone asked if I sold birds and I said, “not yet” and they took that to mean some day I would sell birds so I got blocked because selling birds is not allowed.
I had one TH-cam video blow up and it got over a million views so I was allowed to apply for monetization. By the time it was approved views had dropped and I ended up making something like $200. Now I make about 48¢/month but haven’t gotten a check in the last 2 years because it hasn’t reached $100 yet.
I agree working about one trait at a time, but with a caveat, I think they all have to be free from defects and in general they need to be decent birds, or with clan mating, the one family drags the next down.
Next Question - 25:00 minutes in- If you think lines should be outcrossed by Gen 3 and definitely before Gen 5, how do you explain the successful lines that have been preserved without outcrosses for 50-90 yrs maybe some even longer? I know of leghorn and rhode island red lines that meet that. And Im not talking about production/commercial lines. Im talking about private breeders that breed to the standards.
Well, I need to know more before saying anything specific about those cases. First, some folks use the word "line" more loosely than others...for example many game fowl and long tail fowl "lines" are identified by one person's breeding program, "Joe Blo's line of Phoenix" for example. But, in actuality these are never just one line, but a person that maintained many literal lines held in the "cocker's system", but after that person dies the birds just get called "Joe's line of...insert bird" and the details are lost. This can preserve some of genetic integrity for a human lifespan pluss, but will loose vigor over the long term--refer to the soay sheep and white park cattle story mentioned elsewhere in this genetics series. If this is not the case, I still have other questions, because there are many programs that look good from a distance but have problems under the surface. For example, low hatch rate, problems mating, rye neck, high death rate from ovarian cancer in young hens, ect. can all lurk behinds the scenes--even if the 1 year old birds win shows. A breeding program that wins every show it attends but tolerates vigor-reducing traits like these would still be a failure in my opinion.
I don't think I really understand the test cross. When you run into a trait you want to select against, how do you know if it is a simple Mendelian trait that you can successfully eliminate in this way?
@@liesecarey9494 Well, for simple mendelian traits a test cross is a cross between an individual with unknown genotype and one with a known homozygous recessive condition. If the offspring are approximately 50/50 dominant VS. Recessive phenotypes then the unknown parent is recessive, if the unknown parent is homozygous then all offspring will be as well. Then, you use thus information to decide weather or not to cull the parent being tested; all test cross offspring are typically considered culls.
@@liesecarey9494 Now, knowing of a trait is simple mendelian. The best case senerio is to consult the literature and get an answer. If the trait of interest is not in the literature think it through a little...traits that fall on a sliding scale like size and growth rate are usually pollygenetic, truth that are "either or" are typically mendelian. But these are guidelines with exceptions and you may just have to experiment.
You probably said this but I missed it? When doing the test cross who are you breeding them to for the test? Im assuming one of the parents ? Meaning Breeding the offspring back to a mother or father? Also how many offspring do you need to produce in the test cross to know whether the trait is therenor not?
A test cross line is a seperate line specifically bread to be homozygous for the recessive trait you are testing for! Once you are finished test crossing, the line is food, it is not a long lasting part of the breeding program, because once you have eliminated the recessive trait with test crossing it won't come back on its own.
Sure, the "about" tab went away in a recent TH-cam "style update" now you look just under the header on the channel homepage and click the bolded "...more" to get the about info. It is "improved" because it is now more confusing...sarcasm intended, lol. If that does not work the channel gmail address is the channel name with no caps or spaces; if I type it here as an email address it will attract spam bots which is why it hides behind a captcha in the about info.
Genetically speaking - Aren't their fundamental differences in mammals vs Avians (Poultry) that make line breeding/inbreeding majorly different in application? Meaning line breeding poultry doesn't create as many problems as it can potentially do in mammals? Genuinely asking? I see the value in line breeding and preserving "families" in Poultry lines. Personally, I use blended methods but I do see a lot of complications (unnessicarily) by bringing in "new blood" to lines of poultry that would not have been created had they used a more distant relation within that family or had created a sub line within that same family rom the beginning of their program.
I will answer all of these in turn: 1) Not really, basically animals with a spinal cord all play by the same general rules. Birds are in the reptilian lineage rather than the mammalian lineage, but that only affects sex linked traits, and also they are more sensitive to hormonal changes than mammals. The only thing that birds really have going for them (at least along the lines we are talking) over dogs is that when breeding birds people are more willing to eat the culls. 2) Yes, outbreeding depression is a thing that can happen, it is discussed in the other videos in the series. You have to be just as careful when outcrossing as in any other kind of cross. I would encourage you to start with video 1 in the series and watch it through to vid. 4, it will help you process some of the things you are asking here as they all tie together! Good luck and have a blessed day!
Sure, I have no experience with pigeons specifically, but would be happy to help you sort ideas in a general sence... but it would probably be better to use the email in the "about" tab than the chat box.
Go the home page of this or any youtube channel, there are a series of tabs just above the list of videos: Home--Videos--Playlists--Community--About--Search. Those are pretty standard, some larger channels can customise them a bit so there is some variation from channel to channel. The channel info and contact emails are found in "about", just before the search icon.
I don't know of one, my knowledge of it comes from passing mentions in a variety of other references. But, then, I have never specifically tried to find such a book, as my only interest in them comes from wanting to cross some of their physical traits into other docile lines.
I really want to talk about inbreeding which in it's self is not bad. But being a history buff, I have articles of chicken breeders from the early 1900's that advocate strongly for keeping your line pure, no outside blood. But inbreeding is cumulative and the negatives are also cumulative. So in the early days, when many chicken breeds were developed as composites of other breeds, there was much room for inbreeding, but one hundred years later, we have to be so much more careful. It's really not a big deal, I line breed and clan mate to achieve my goals, but you have to be mindful, the biggest thing we see with chickens that are getting too inbred is poor fertility, but one outcross can fix that, but it also can mess up your birds, so your source for outcross stock is very important. Great presentation!
I read your comments is there any books that you can recommend for me a beginner in breeding chickens ? Please thank you I appreciate your help
@@SamuelCiuriuc Look up Sigrid Van Dort if you are into chickens.
I agree. But I have also heard that when line breeding many people hit the wall of "problems" (which in my opinion were actually always there just hidden recessively and the line breeding brought them to the surface) this is where most people freak out bc of all the bad things they've heard and instead of continuing forward with line breeding, where they would actually start seeing results then, they bring in new blood and ruin their line.
@@amberemma6136 That an outcross could ruin your line is true. But if your line is going down the tubes, an outcross might save it. It is about assessing what recessives are dragging your line down and is it possible to cull enough to eliminate it or perhaps the best way is outcross to reduce the frequency of that fault appearing, that you might have more generations to chip away at that fault, rather than destroy the whole flock. I line breed and outcross, keep very good records, I don't assume that an outcross will fix my problem, I look at the results over generations, and have the ability to eliminate or perpetuate any blood line in my flock. I have 4 distinct lines and each has their good and bad points. I use them as tools to improve each other, but I keep track and cull hard. I have a good line that has given me many grand champions, but if I breed them pure, they tend to get too light in colour, so I have worked at developing a darker outside line, that I can add every third or forth generation and that has worked out well for me.
Great video. I’ll need to share this with a few Facebook groups.
Thats awsome! Thanks so much!
@@oldwaysrisingfarm after watching this whole series I’m surprised that you aren’t already on a few of the Facebook pages that I’m on. Several seem right up your alley. My free range birds have a lot of the traits that you are breeding for but guess what? I rarely find their eggs. They roost in the barn but I think the raccoons find most of the eggs in the woods. Maybe if I locked them up half the day more would lay in the barn. I think a lot of those traits keep them half wild.
@@RobG7aChattTN I have tried; since it is my own youtube page they all kick me off for "self promotion" any time I try and share something, so I just gave up on facebook and left the platform. For some reason people thing there is big money in youtube and money makes people stupid. If you are interested, I will share that after 2 years and 197 videos youtube has provided me exactly 0 dollars! But, most facebook groups still slap me away for trying to promote a business when I try and share information that way. I work a retail job to support this teaching effort, and don't have time to make the videos and then go and re-type all this stuff on a facebook page separately, so I am just done with them.
@@oldwaysrisingfarm yeah, I got banned from one of the most popular chicken groups because someone asked if I sold birds and I said, “not yet” and they took that to mean some day I would sell birds so I got blocked because selling birds is not allowed.
I had one TH-cam video blow up and it got over a million views so I was allowed to apply for monetization. By the time it was approved views had dropped and I ended up making something like $200. Now I make about 48¢/month but haven’t gotten a check in the last 2 years because it hasn’t reached $100 yet.
Great video, helped me understand some of the different breeding methodologies. BTW, very interesting library.
Thanks, glad it helped!
Awesome thank you so very much for this information that I been searching for God bless you abundantly thank you
I agree working about one trait at a time, but with a caveat, I think they all have to be free from defects and in general they need to be decent birds, or with clan mating, the one family drags the next down.
More power...thank you for the great lecture
Next Question - 25:00 minutes in- If you think lines should be outcrossed by Gen 3 and definitely before Gen 5, how do you explain the successful lines that have been preserved without outcrosses for 50-90 yrs maybe some even longer? I know of leghorn and rhode island red lines that meet that. And Im not talking about production/commercial lines. Im talking about private breeders that breed to the standards.
Well, I need to know more before saying anything specific about those cases. First, some folks use the word "line" more loosely than others...for example many game fowl and long tail fowl "lines" are identified by one person's breeding program, "Joe Blo's line of Phoenix" for example. But, in actuality these are never just one line, but a person that maintained many literal lines held in the "cocker's system", but after that person dies the birds just get called "Joe's line of...insert bird" and the details are lost. This can preserve some of genetic integrity for a human lifespan pluss, but will loose vigor over the long term--refer to the soay sheep and white park cattle story mentioned elsewhere in this genetics series. If this is not the case, I still have other questions, because there are many programs that look good from a distance but have problems under the surface. For example, low hatch rate, problems mating, rye neck, high death rate from ovarian cancer in young hens, ect. can all lurk behinds the scenes--even if the 1 year old birds win shows. A breeding program that wins every show it attends but tolerates vigor-reducing traits like these would still be a failure in my opinion.
This helped me out a lot. Thanks for the amazing video.
You are most welcome!
I dont see the about tab?
Great video. Very helpful
Absolutely great video thank you for sharing your knowledge fantastic. Muchas gracias
So glad to be of service!
Great video!
17:31 cockfighting vs Roman's Colosseum or today's football just humans used for 'entertainment'
I don't think I really understand the test cross. When you run into a trait you want to select against, how do you know if it is a simple Mendelian trait that you can successfully eliminate in this way?
@@liesecarey9494 Well, for simple mendelian traits a test cross is a cross between an individual with unknown genotype and one with a known homozygous recessive condition. If the offspring are approximately 50/50 dominant VS. Recessive phenotypes then the unknown parent is recessive, if the unknown parent is homozygous then all offspring will be as well. Then, you use thus information to decide weather or not to cull the parent being tested; all test cross offspring are typically considered culls.
@@liesecarey9494 Now, knowing of a trait is simple mendelian. The best case senerio is to consult the literature and get an answer. If the trait of interest is not in the literature think it through a little...traits that fall on a sliding scale like size and growth rate are usually pollygenetic, truth that are "either or" are typically mendelian. But these are guidelines with exceptions and you may just have to experiment.
You probably said this but I missed it? When doing the test cross who are you breeding them to for the test? Im assuming one of the parents ? Meaning Breeding the offspring back to a mother or father? Also how many offspring do you need to produce in the test cross to know whether the trait is therenor not?
A test cross line is a seperate line specifically bread to be homozygous for the recessive trait you are testing for! Once you are finished test crossing, the line is food, it is not a long lasting part of the breeding program, because once you have eliminated the recessive trait with test crossing it won't come back on its own.
Is there anyway i could contact you. I need help if you have the time thanks!
Sure, the "about" tab went away in a recent TH-cam "style update" now you look just under the header on the channel homepage and click the bolded "...more" to get the about info. It is "improved" because it is now more confusing...sarcasm intended, lol. If that does not work the channel gmail address is the channel name with no caps or spaces; if I type it here as an email address it will attract spam bots which is why it hides behind a captcha in the about info.
Genetically speaking - Aren't their fundamental differences in mammals vs Avians (Poultry) that make line breeding/inbreeding majorly different in application? Meaning line breeding poultry doesn't create as many problems as it can potentially do in mammals? Genuinely asking? I see the value in line breeding and preserving "families" in Poultry lines. Personally, I use blended methods but I do see a lot of complications (unnessicarily) by bringing in "new blood" to lines of poultry that would not have been created had they used a more distant relation within that family or had created a sub line within that same family rom the beginning of their program.
I will answer all of these in turn:
1) Not really, basically animals with a spinal cord all play by the same general rules. Birds are in the reptilian lineage rather than the mammalian lineage, but that only affects sex linked traits, and also they are more sensitive to hormonal changes than mammals. The only thing that birds really have going for them (at least along the lines we are talking) over dogs is that when breeding birds people are more willing to eat the culls.
2) Yes, outbreeding depression is a thing that can happen, it is discussed in the other videos in the series. You have to be just as careful when outcrossing as in any other kind of cross. I would encourage you to start with video 1 in the series and watch it through to vid. 4, it will help you process some of the things you are asking here as they all tie together! Good luck and have a blessed day!
@@oldwaysrisingfarm I actually did start at video one in the series I just didn't comment until now.
I have racing pigeons and would love to talk with you about a breeding strategy
Sure, I have no experience with pigeons specifically, but would be happy to help you sort ideas in a general sence... but it would probably be better to use the email in the "about" tab than the chat box.
I’m sorry where is the about tab?
Go the home page of this or any youtube channel, there are a series of tabs just above the list of videos: Home--Videos--Playlists--Community--About--Search. Those are pretty standard, some larger channels can customise them a bit so there is some variation from channel to channel. The channel info and contact emails are found in "about", just before the search icon.
I’m sorry I’m not very up to date one using TH-cam 🤦🏻♂️ I’m not seeing a email address
@@willwood6285 no worries! I see you got it.
Can i buy a book for breeding gamecock
I don't know of one, my knowledge of it comes from passing mentions in a variety of other references. But, then, I have never specifically tried to find such a book, as my only interest in them comes from wanting to cross some of their physical traits into other docile lines.