no. every part of every ship would be half broke down before going back in time. after the time travel. they would all automatically sink due to being modern.
U.S.S. Samual B. Roberts. The Destroyer Escort that fought like a battleship. U.S.S. Johnston. The Destroyer that fought like a fleet. Such incredible bravery and sacrifice. May they never be forgotten. U.S.S Johnston, Cmdr. Ernest Evans, Taffy 3, (posthumously received the Medal of Honor) for his actions during the Battle off Samar.
My great uncle served on the Roberts when it was sunk, he was a cook and he spent 2 days and 2 nights in the water, all he could hear were the screams from the shark attacks in the night. Rest In Peace old sailor.
Could you just imagine the psychological effect of just the ASM's from so far out they can't even SEE the Destroyer? Then add in the torpedo attacks, and the choppers with anti-shipping missiles as well, you wouldn't even have to kill the battleships to gain a victory.
If the Japanese had been led by one of their other commanders they might have not turned away until they were all destroyed. Some of them had the whole "Death before Dishonour" bug good and proper.
The Japanese commander seeing his entire escort getting decimated before he could even see a ship would be going we can't afford to lose these few ships we have left. Turn around and run.
@@haroldbenton979 Kurita in real life had already lost Musashi and 2 cruisers the day before. in the opening hour Taffy 3 knocked out 2 more cruisers with torpedos, both sank, and 2 cruisers dropped out of the fight to assist their stricken sisters. One cruiser got disabled, allegedly by the 5 in gun crew of White Plains, and air planes came in later and torped them. Kurita ran after sinking 2 destroyers, a destroyer escort and one escort carrier but loosing 2 cruisers in doing so. Kamikazes got the the other carrier later in the day.
@@MrSGL21center force was severely weakened over 3 separate engagements. They started out with 5 battleships, 10 heavy cruisers, 2 light cruisers, and 15 destroyers all in good condition. By the end of the battle, they were left with 4 battleships 2 of which were damaged, 3 damaged heavy cruisers, 2 light cruisers, and 11 destroyers one of which was damaged.
If anyone wants to learn more about the actual battle, I highly recommend Last Stand of the Tincan Sailors. It is available in book, audiobook, and graphic novel forms.
@@MoA-Reload... "...Running is boring..." Drachinifel's video on the subject is exceptional. _Johnston_ came off as a force of nature. The comments section of that video is also worth the read.
Yamato on her own displaced more than the whole of Taffy 3. Also one of the reasons they lasted as long as they did is the Japanese were convinced they must be facing heavier Fleet units so had AP loaded in their main guns. Because of the lack of armour on the Destroyers and the destroyer escorts the AP rounds were punching right through them instead of detonating in them. Really well done war game. That was a lot of fun to see play out. I highly recommend Drachinifel here on YT btw. His video on Taffy 3 is really well made and he has loads more Naval history
Great post folks. My dad was a Navy Pilot aboard the U.S.S. Kitkun Bay with Taffy 3. Incredible David and Goliath situation. And yes, he survived the battle.
This is the problem with hit points. All three of those Yamato’s would be reefs after taking that much fire but unfortunately the game says nope you need 173 hellfires precisely to sink a Yamato. In fact 1 hellfire through the bridge would turn that ship into a floating coffin. Fun concept though just sucks dcs damage model isn’t ready for it.
How would a hellfire to the bridge take out a bb? I’ll all likelihood the bridge wouldn’t even be occupied in battle, the important folks would be inside the armoured citadel…
@dirtdevil70 not quite, but you are correct that a bridge hit is not going to put a WWII military ship out of the action. Those ships were designed to be able to lose the bridge and still stay in the fight.
@GageEakins assuming they are hit. Even as good as modern missiles are, knocking out a BB turret is no simple thing of just hitting the ship anywhere. I'm not saying that the ships wouldn't start facing a serious degradation of fire, they would including losses of main turrets. Just that a bridge hit doesn't just kill a BB. Bridges got hit in WWII, and the ships still fought; for example, the Kongo-class during their first run on Guadalcanal. Ironically, hitting the center superstructure of the Japanese ships would probably improve their ships' combat effectiveness by ridding it from the weight of their borderline useless AA, because unlike these mods, their AA was absolute crap bar the 100mm.
@@GageEakins in-fact hitting the turret may potentially touch off the magazine if it does penetrate. Which would potentially be enough to take out the whole ship.
And it's also deeply impressive that the USS Johnston managed to effectively manoeuvre and fight so effectively while weighted down by the captain's and crew's absolutely TITANIC balls
If you would fly the helicopters behind the enemy fleet (or slightly to the side due to the smoke) that is traveling at 30 knots you can fly at 30 knots at maximum range and shoot all your missiles and never get within range of the enemy. Fight with helicopters like helicopters and not like supersonic jets. As long as your stay above translational lift you can fly fairly slowly with a fully loaded helicopter. Fight smart not hard. 24 years of AH-64 experience.
These "What If" battles are fantastic. It really shows the peogression of weaponry. I alao very much enjoy the Landing Skills streams, Any chance of a Helicopter one soon? Havent seen one for a while.
Why no Harpoons? Thought those were standard equipment on all US destroyers until very recently; helos should also have Penguins, as noted below. And Mk 50 ASW torpedo can very definitely be used against surface targets; small warhead for a torpedo, but much bigger than a Hellfire.
@@cockatoo010 sure, but why choose that version for this simulation? As we've seen in a number of these sims (esp with planes), the latest and greatest isn't always the best choice for use against really old tech. Maybe they just don't have the older version, but that would be better here, IMHO.
The version of the Burke in game has no harpoons including the ch modernized version new ships have vls launched lrasm through that’s not modeled but the main anti ship armament is still the sm2 and sm6 because the U.S. naval doctrine is anti ship via air not via ships
@@miketranfaglia3986 Imo, the mod should just be updated to include the Block Va Maritime Strike Tomahawk, which can hit ships. That would instantly solve the "no Harpoon" problem.
You might try it with competent helicopter pilots. In addition to the Yamato, the other battleships consisted of the Nagato (about equivalent to the North Carolina class) and 2 Kongo class (upgraded WW-I battlecruisers) which were significantly weaker.
Hey guys and gal....great video. That should be called a successful mission. The Burke lived up to her namesakes Bravery Michael Murphy won the Congressional Medal of Honor in Afganistan during the action portrayed in Sole Survivor. Also the Japanese historically turned tail after suffering way less damage and losses then were inflicted here. Maybe next time add the modern Samuel B Roberts if the Perry class frigates are available in game.
Ok, so if we put this force against Kurita's force in that exact time and place, the initial action/damage should send Kurita packing. He'd (as you mentioned) fought the action in the Sibuyan Sea the previous day, losing the battleship Musashi and damaging the Yamato. I'm pretty sure he had his flagship sunk from underneath him (a cruiser?) as well. So he wasn't in the best frame of mind by the time of the action off Samar. Japanese intelligence gathering was garbage at this time, so he didn't know exactly who Taffy 3 were. I don't think his orders to his fleet were particularly coherent as it spread to the four winds chasing the US ships. So battle fatigue (assumed by me) lack of knowledge of who he was fighting, no idea (or very little) where the other US forces were, having lost another two cruisers at least, getting late in the day he decided to regather his fleet and withdraw. The more or less suicidal efforts of Taffy 3 had him rattled, more than he already was. So given the same mental state preceding the battle, incredibly fast unknown technology starts to maul his fleet, he is going to turn around and go home. That's my take anyway.
@@HAXRLITSXY the opening salvo of sm6s would have turned the center force for sure. they sank more tonnage in the 1st few minutes of this engagement that Kurita lost to Taffy 3.
Cap and y'all GR's...this was very enlightening and entertaining. Thanks. Addendum, from previous vid..."A face full of Simba missile" was classic Cap/SuperCap.
This vid reminds me of a scene from "Summoning Japan", a scifi/fantasy story where the 21st century country of japan is completely teleported to a world full of countries with assorted tech levels. From wooden ships with dragons up to cold war era. The last chapters have Japan at war with a WW2 level country and this scene plays out very similarly.
One thing to consider is the psychological effect of so many destroyers killed by an unknown force. My opinion is that the Japanese force would have withdrawn after the first SM6 salvo.
On a more serious note I do recommend recommend teaming up with Drachinifel, he's a huge naval history channel on TH-cam and WW1 and WW2 are the period he covers the most. I especially recommend his series about the Guadalcanal Campaign, lots of good video subject-fodder there 👍🏻
Realistically, Kurita would have turned and headed home long before the naval gunnery started, and probably even before the choppers got involved. I'd call that a solid win.
Considering it would have taken only one of the Japanese ships with guns to get through, this was a very ambitious scenario. As it was you had 3 monstrous battleships parked a few miles away...LOL. well fought though, the firepower of the Burke is amazing even without the extra helicopters.
I was shouting at the screen. Why didn't they destroy that last functional turret? They had this on the bag! This one qualifies for the game of throws...
I mean considering at 74-63 miles the Burke could use Harpoons idk but the other Sams & missiles also would rain terror also having no way to defend against any of this and the destroyers would never come into range of the Battleships idk
After watching so many of your videos, I’ve had a reoccurring dream of a wasp, 2 destroyers, one guided missile cruiser, a battleship (although they aren’t used anymore) and a tanker (sometimes a supply ship too) that went through a storm and came out in the mid 1500s and tried explaining to the English Navy that they wanted to stay 20k off the shore to try and get back to their time (usually set around the Caribbean) and the English Commodore refuses saying they are in English territorial waters and either attack the Americans or other times an American officer goes ashore to come to a compromise and explain the situation but they kidnap the American officer. They assume they are safe in their fort and the Americans fast rope in to retrieve their officer. Lol.
Can I request the same battle, but with a 1990s spec Iowa Class battleship instead of the destroyer? An Iowa does not have hangars, but six AH-64s will easily fit on the fantail. 16 Harpoons and 32 TASM's would've done quite a number on the Japanese fleet. Also, if you guys had SH-60R's you'd have actually killed the enemy fleet faster, because they can carry Penguins. (I dont know if they're in DCS or not)
Commander Evans and the Johnston deserved something more than a medal of honor. That was absolutely insane. The Samuel B Roberts was pretty amazing, too.
How many WW2 IJN Yamato class battleships would you need to defeat a single 1988 USS Iowa class battleship? Would love to see this as a simulation, might take a few runs though as I fancy it takes quite a few Yamato's for a win.
So cool ! I hope that one day we see the whole range of modern ships to the point, were you can even do a proper amphibious assault with tanks on LCACs "'nd sh*t". 😋
My uncle was a plank owner and survivor of the USS Gambier Bay. Was on the same raft as some of the bridge officers (those who survived) and was in the water until the next morning or afternoon. (if memory is correct) There was only one Yamato class battle ship their, it's sister ship was sunk the day before. The other JIN battleships were the Nagato, Kongo and Haruna. Heavy Cruisers Chokai, Haguro, Kumano, Suzuya, Chikuma, Tone. Two light cruisers and 11 destroyers.
If you'd had some proper anti-ship weapons on those choppers, this would absolutely have been a win. A couple of torpedoes under _Yamato's_ keel would've done the job.
Could the Helos have actually carried a MK48? I don't think they've ever been specced for it even if they could manage the weight. ASW torps, on the other hand, aren't going to do much except for, at best, puncturing a single compartment assuming it's a shaped charge variant. Realistically, 100lbs blast-frag just won't hurt Yammy much, and while a MK48 would, I don't see it getting there from a Helo.
@@josepetersen7112 MK48 is a submarine only weapon. And ASW torpedoes like mk46 have a 50kg warhead, which wouldn't do much of anything to a Yamato torpedo belt, plus not sure if they even go for surface targets at all.
What you DEFINITELY do not want to hear on the ship's intercom first thing in the morning. Capt Evan, USS Johnston, "Men, we are going into action against overwhelming odds. Survival is not likely. We will do what we can."
ESSM has a surface attack mode, the Burke would have, in reality, emptied it's ESSM's into the enemy fleet once the kamakaze threat was gone. Even one ESSM can mission kill a modern destroyer.
ESSM does have a surface attack mode, but it only has an 86lb blast fragmentation warhead. it would do nothing to a BB, but it could mess up a DD and maybe a CL if it hits the right parts. The SM missiles also have a similar issue. The only things that would damage a BB would be the tomahawks.
@@jeffreyhughes5972 An ESSM barrage (Let alone SM2 or SM6) would kill every AA gun crew on the battleship, and completely destroy not just it's radar, but it's rangefinders as well. Without range finders the battleship has almost no ability at all to attack. ESSM hitting at mach 4 would also very likely have the kinetic energy to penetrate the secondary turrets, and very possibly cause a catostrophic explosion. A barrage of ESSM would therefore have an enormous effect on a Battleship. A single ESSM will wreck a modern DD or WWII light cruiser, easily.
@@Valorius I think you are wildly overestimating what an 86lbs burst fragmentation warhead can do. Yes the small caliber AA gun crews would be killed. In a small area. The guns may still be functional, and the gun crews of the turreted 5" guns would likely be fine. The ship had a large number of rangefinders, and they were all armored and would, aside from a direct hit on the optics themselves, likely be just fine. And as for your assertation that a single ESSM would kill a modern ship, that's flat out laughable. The USS Cole survived a 400-700lbs shaped charge warhead detonated against its hull. The USS Samuel B. Roberts was struck by a naval mine, had it's keel broken and remained not only afloat but combat-capable the entire time. a single ESSM would cause significant localized damage, but it would not sink the ship and, unless it struck a weapons system directly would not put the ship out of action.
@@jeffreyhughes5972 ive seen what high explosives will do in person (I spent about a year in a heavy mortar platoon, as part of my time in the US Army Infantry). A US 4.2" (107mm) mortar shell has 'only' 8lbs of HE and yet has a lethal fragmentation radius of 35 meters vs exposed personnel and soft skinned vehicles. An ESSM warhead is a far, far more powerful thing than a 4.2" mortar. ESSM's warhead has more explosive content than a super heavy 8" artillery shell (36lbs), and the ESSM optimized to create an extremely lethal fragmentation cloud. A barrage of ESSMs on a battleship would do enormous damage to electronics, rangefinders and exposed personnel.
In 1992 a US carrier (USS Saratoga) shot Turkish destroyer *Muavenet* with a RIM-7 Sea Sparrow (90lb warhead), killing the captain and the entire bridge crew, and gutting the ship with fire. And this despite operating as part of the US fleet and getting immediate and massive damage control assistance from surrounding US vessels. There are numerous photos online of the Muavenet after the hit, and it is *completely* wrecked. Getting hit with a missile is not the same effect as a mine at all, as the mine blast is underwater, and has no effect on the top side or exposed top side crew. Getting hit with a barrage of ESSMs would mission kill any warship, and would cause massive casualties on a WWII destroyer with hundreds of exposed crew manning AAA defenses.
Is there a reason Tomahawks aren't being used? As of 2021 Block Va and Vb have anti-ship capability, with Vb specifically having an armor penetrating role. Also: "Something wrong with Russian missiles today guys" so it is an accurate simulation of modern Russian equipment? It's going to be interesting to do these simulations in the next few years once the new integrated data network is fully deployed, with hand-off ability for every radar guided missile. Not to mention whatever tech improvements have enabled significant range increases, such as for the AGM-179 JAGM-MR, the replacement for the TOW and Hellfire with a range of 16km (10 miles), or double the range for the same dimensions.
@@exoterric Heh, my left eye is blind to remind me of the last mission I ever flew. Not too much of a nightmare to fight when your depth perception is exactly ZERO. I haven't strapped a fighter to my ass in almost 15 years now. Now, if I can break Carl away from his cushy job at Woods Hole...yeah, he'd have some fun.
You should listen to Americas forgotten hero’s Ernest Evan’s orders left full rudder. It tells the tail of the battle and bill whittle tells it so well. You will fell like you are the one pushing on the heavy wheel as he yells orders Down through the rear hatch
you nkow those Mk-41 VLS missle pods on that unit shold just be monuted on the side turret armor on thsoe allready exesting arbram tanks instead with there own gidance and targting sistems that when hit by enemy fire would also reactal like very oversized reactive armor that would blow up even very large emey projetiltes. it would be far cheaper and far more easly for R&D time that would just be far more easy to do for the meantime.
The 5"/38 guns of US destryers weren't able to punch through Battleship and cruiser armor...but they could damage the superstructures of enemy ships...enough to make an enemy ship mission incapable-killing or wounding command personnel, damaging fire control gear and antiaircraft guns. One unrealism here is the lack of USN aurcraft. In the real battle, Taffy 3s aircraft did a fair amount of damage to Kurita's force...especially when aircrsft from Taffy 1 and 2 arrived.
A bit of a personal note: My wife's uncle was a radioman on the USS White Plains (CVE-66) at the Battle of Leyte Gulf. He didn't talk too much about it other than to say it was very busy and harrowing as a 20 year old kid from Mason, TX. He did mention about how they took a hit that knocked out the entire electrical system, and they had it back online inside of 3 minutes.
for some reason, my brain switched Leyte gulf with the gulf of Tonkin. and i'm just like "i mean.... yes? it was only three torpedo boats.... they didn't stand a chance against a Sumner-class, they sure as heck don't stand a chance against an Arleigh Burke..." the brain fog is real.
In terms of a single modern warship type that could really decimate a World War Two naval force, the SSGN or an SSN would be the best (without nuclear weapons). One Oscar II with all those giant anti-ship missiles plus a load out of 660mm torpedoes is quite the punch (assuming those torpedoes don’t explode onboard).
Yes it could have. These missiles did little damage. They can bust bunkers, but not wooden deck ships! The computational power for a real simulation this size, would require a room full of high-end servers. It's fun to watch and that's the point of it all.
Imagine being the US Navy recon pilot, flying on a lovely day, and dropping down through the clouds to come face to face with the Yamato. The biggest and most powerful battleship ever built. Trousers, I suspect, were duly decorated....
Realistically speaking, the moment several destroyers got obliterated by weapons that the IJN commanders can't understand, they'd have turned tail and ran.
@@thystaff742 True, but continuing on the attack like that, wouldn't make sense. They'd know that the attack was coming from that general direction, so going that way, isn't a good idea. Best case scenario, they'd scatter to the winds and all directions. But most likely? The force commander would pick a new direction and turn, thinking that at first, it's some kind of hidden submarine and they're torpedoes. Then seeing they're coming from the air, he'd go back the way he came, ordering 'best speed', and have his ships make smoke in an effort to hide them from the attacker. Likely thinking they're some kind of kamikaze attack. Akin to the Ohka bombs.
I don't see a comment about this yet so I'll make one: Taffy destroyers chased that japanese battle fleet away because they charged so confidently that the japanese admiral assumed it meant the main US fleet was close behind. So similary, once you achieved a significant amount of damage on the japanese, they should have failed a moral check and left as well.
Also the Japanese miss identified some of the destroyers and thought they were cruisers. Also Kurita when he first sighted the escort jeep carriers thought they were the main carriers so he did not form up and ordered ships to charge in at first. So the fleet had issues in supporting each other.
Yeah, there is very little in all of history that could match the disparity of forces, and still result in a "win". The very stamp and pattern of Duty.
Could a modern carrier strike group save Pearl Harbor?
th-cam.com/video/3_yJuPhv-gU/w-d-xo.html
@@grimreapers, Yey!
Can modern japanese carrier + musashi take the W for the battle of leyte gulf?
th-cam.com/video/9scmFAxnWRU/w-d-xo.html
no. every part of every ship would be half broke down before going back in time. after the time travel. they would all automatically sink due to being modern.
U.S.S. Samual B. Roberts. The Destroyer Escort that fought like a battleship.
U.S.S. Johnston. The Destroyer that fought like a fleet. Such incredible bravery and sacrifice. May they never be forgotten.
U.S.S Johnston, Cmdr. Ernest Evans, Taffy 3, (posthumously received the Medal of Honor) for his actions during the Battle off Samar.
My great uncle served on the Roberts when it was sunk, he was a cook and he spent 2 days and 2 nights in the water, all he could hear were the screams from the shark attacks in the night. Rest In Peace old sailor.
@@TheRealNSA
god damn 😳
if you know of a good documentary on that, i’d love to watch it
what is ‘Taffy 3’?
@@altPastaTits the task group
@@altPastaTits The TH-cam channel Yarnhub has 2 good videos, the battle off Samar and the USS Johnston
Could you just imagine the psychological effect of just the ASM's from so far out they can't even SEE the Destroyer? Then add in the torpedo attacks, and the choppers with anti-shipping missiles as well, you wouldn't even have to kill the battleships to gain a victory.
If the Japanese had been led by one of their other commanders they might have not turned away until they were all destroyed. Some of them had the whole "Death before Dishonour" bug good and proper.
You'd think theyd be aliens.
The Japanese commander seeing his entire escort getting decimated before he could even see a ship would be going we can't afford to lose these few ships we have left. Turn around and run.
@@haroldbenton979 Kurita in real life had already lost Musashi and 2 cruisers the day before. in the opening hour Taffy 3 knocked out 2 more cruisers with torpedos, both sank, and 2 cruisers dropped out of the fight to assist their stricken sisters. One cruiser got disabled, allegedly by the 5 in gun crew of White Plains, and air planes came in later and torped them. Kurita ran after sinking 2 destroyers, a destroyer escort and one escort carrier but loosing 2 cruisers in doing so. Kamikazes got the the other carrier later in the day.
@@MrSGL21center force was severely weakened over 3 separate engagements. They started out with 5 battleships, 10 heavy cruisers, 2 light cruisers, and 15 destroyers all in good condition. By the end of the battle, they were left with 4 battleships 2 of which were damaged, 3 damaged heavy cruisers, 2 light cruisers, and 11 destroyers one of which was damaged.
Never forget USS Johnston
Ocean gate 2.0 anyone😅
Long live Samuel B!!!!!
Drachinifel’s video on the battle is amazing, if you haven’t seen it check it out.
What is the miss-fire rate for the American missiles?
@johnblankenship4510 Never forget the Sammie B.
If anyone wants to learn more about the actual battle, I highly recommend Last Stand of the Tincan Sailors. It is available in book, audiobook, and graphic novel forms.
I agree, it's one of the best WW2 naval books you can get
I'd also recommend Drachinifel right here on YT. His channel is dedicated to Naval history and his video on Taffy 3 is really well done.
@@MoA-Reload... Good channel
thx
@@MoA-Reload... "...Running is boring..." Drachinifel's video on the subject is exceptional. _Johnston_ came off as a force of nature. The comments section of that video is also worth the read.
Yamato on her own displaced more than the whole of Taffy 3. Also one of the reasons they lasted as long as they did is the Japanese were convinced they must be facing heavier Fleet units so had AP loaded in their main guns. Because of the lack of armour on the Destroyers and the destroyer escorts the AP rounds were punching right through them instead of detonating in them.
Really well done war game. That was a lot of fun to see play out.
I highly recommend Drachinifel here on YT btw. His video on Taffy 3 is really well made and he has loads more Naval history
Great post folks. My dad was a Navy Pilot aboard the U.S.S. Kitkun Bay with Taffy 3. Incredible David and Goliath situation. And yes, he survived the battle.
Sock gets it, CAP oblivious, ‘I’d intercept me!’ 😂
This is the problem with hit points. All three of those Yamato’s would be reefs after taking that much fire but unfortunately the game says nope you need 173 hellfires precisely to sink a Yamato. In fact 1 hellfire through the bridge would turn that ship into a floating coffin. Fun concept though just sucks dcs damage model isn’t ready for it.
How would a hellfire to the bridge take out a bb? I’ll all likelihood the bridge wouldn’t even be occupied in battle, the important folks would be inside the armoured citadel…
@dirtdevil70 not quite, but you are correct that a bridge hit is not going to put a WWII military ship out of the action. Those ships were designed to be able to lose the bridge and still stay in the fight.
@@nicolivoldkif9096 Yes however, those guns would be dead after multiple hits from guided missiles.
@GageEakins assuming they are hit. Even as good as modern missiles are, knocking out a BB turret is no simple thing of just hitting the ship anywhere. I'm not saying that the ships wouldn't start facing a serious degradation of fire, they would including losses of main turrets. Just that a bridge hit doesn't just kill a BB. Bridges got hit in WWII, and the ships still fought; for example, the Kongo-class during their first run on Guadalcanal.
Ironically, hitting the center superstructure of the Japanese ships would probably improve their ships' combat effectiveness by ridding it from the weight of their borderline useless AA, because unlike these mods, their AA was absolute crap bar the 100mm.
@@GageEakins in-fact hitting the turret may potentially touch off the magazine if it does penetrate. Which would potentially be enough to take out the whole ship.
Yamato coming over the horizon is the moment you realise you need a good old 90's TASM setup in the VLS... or the newer Block V Tomahawks...
And it's also deeply impressive that the USS Johnston managed to effectively manoeuvre and fight so effectively while weighted down by the captain's and crew's absolutely TITANIC balls
If you would fly the helicopters behind the enemy fleet (or slightly to the side due to the smoke) that is traveling at 30 knots you can fly at 30 knots at maximum range and shoot all your missiles and never get within range of the enemy. Fight with helicopters like helicopters and not like supersonic jets. As long as your stay above translational lift you can fly fairly slowly with a fully loaded helicopter. Fight smart not hard. 24 years of AH-64 experience.
Exactly!
Awesome. Told like a leader.
One thing that’s not realistic is, after the first few hits on Yamato, Kurita would have turned the force around and ran!!
These "What If" battles are fantastic. It really shows the peogression of weaponry. I alao very much enjoy the Landing Skills streams, Any chance of a Helicopter one soon? Havent seen one for a while.
Why no Harpoons? Thought those were standard equipment on all US destroyers until very recently; helos should also have Penguins, as noted below. And Mk 50 ASW torpedo can very definitely be used against surface targets; small warhead for a torpedo, but much bigger than a Hellfire.
Flight III Burkes do not have the harpon launchers and afaik, those can't be fitted on Mk41 VLS cells
The helciopters should have had penguins, yes.
@@cockatoo010 sure, but why choose that version for this simulation? As we've seen in a number of these sims (esp with planes), the latest and greatest isn't always the best choice for use against really old tech. Maybe they just don't have the older version, but that would be better here, IMHO.
DDG 51-78 have harpoons. Max they carry is 8
The version of the Burke in game has no harpoons including the ch modernized version new ships have vls launched lrasm through that’s not modeled but the main anti ship armament is still the sm2 and sm6 because the U.S. naval doctrine is anti ship via air not via ships
@@miketranfaglia3986 Imo, the mod should just be updated to include the Block Va Maritime Strike Tomahawk, which can hit ships. That would instantly solve the "no Harpoon" problem.
You might try it with competent helicopter pilots. In addition to the Yamato, the other battleships consisted of the Nagato (about equivalent to the North Carolina class) and 2 Kongo class (upgraded WW-I battlecruisers) which were significantly weaker.
We need more Battle Off Samar content of all types.
Hey guys and gal....great video. That should be called a successful mission. The Burke lived up to her namesakes Bravery Michael Murphy won the Congressional Medal of Honor in Afganistan during the action portrayed in Sole Survivor. Also the Japanese historically turned tail after suffering way less damage and losses then were inflicted here. Maybe next time add the modern Samuel B Roberts if the Perry class frigates are available in game.
Thank you Grim Reapers. You are a great source of entertainment! Keep up the great work!
As always wonderful work. Lovey way to spend my time. Thanks
Ok, so if we put this force against Kurita's force in that exact time and place, the initial action/damage should send Kurita packing. He'd (as you mentioned) fought the action in the Sibuyan Sea the previous day, losing the battleship Musashi and damaging the Yamato. I'm pretty sure he had his flagship sunk from underneath him (a cruiser?) as well.
So he wasn't in the best frame of mind by the time of the action off Samar. Japanese intelligence gathering was garbage at this time, so he didn't know exactly who Taffy 3 were. I don't think his orders to his fleet were particularly coherent as it spread to the four winds chasing the US ships.
So battle fatigue (assumed by me) lack of knowledge of who he was fighting, no idea (or very little) where the other US forces were, having lost another two cruisers at least, getting late in the day he decided to regather his fleet and withdraw. The more or less suicidal efforts of Taffy 3 had him rattled, more than he already was.
So given the same mental state preceding the battle, incredibly fast unknown technology starts to maul his fleet, he is going to turn around and go home. That's my take anyway.
Yeah, I would say that he would have turned around before the destroyer would be destroyed.
@@HAXRLITSXY the opening salvo of sm6s would have turned the center force for sure. they sank more tonnage in the 1st few minutes of this engagement that Kurita lost to Taffy 3.
"would you intercept me? id intercept me"
really channeling that f22 energy here
This was a fun one. Well done.
Here's a scenario. 1 Gulf war era Iowa class + the lads in choppers versus the same fleet.
Cap and y'all GR's...this was very enlightening and entertaining. Thanks. Addendum, from previous vid..."A face full of Simba missile" was classic Cap/SuperCap.
LMAO!!! The habitual line crosser reference, Well played!
The computer doesn't know it can't see you through the smoke, so it's flack can find you just fine 😂
This vid reminds me of a scene from "Summoning Japan", a scifi/fantasy story where the 21st century country of japan is completely teleported to a world full of countries with assorted tech levels. From wooden ships with dragons up to cold war era.
The last chapters have Japan at war with a WW2 level country and this scene plays out very similarly.
One thing to consider is the psychological effect of so many destroyers killed by an unknown force. My opinion is that the Japanese force would have withdrawn after the first SM6 salvo.
On a more serious note I do recommend recommend teaming up with Drachinifel, he's a huge naval history channel on TH-cam and WW1 and WW2 are the period he covers the most. I especially recommend his series about the Guadalcanal Campaign, lots of good video subject-fodder there 👍🏻
Realistically, Kurita would have turned and headed home long before the naval gunnery started, and probably even before the choppers got involved. I'd call that a solid win.
Hooray!! Fly is back and doing fun stuff!
“Smash! That’s how you use an Apache!” Lmao
Considering it would have taken only one of the Japanese ships with guns to get through, this was a very ambitious scenario. As it was you had 3 monstrous battleships parked a few miles away...LOL. well fought though, the firepower of the Burke is amazing even without the extra helicopters.
I was shouting at the screen. Why didn't they destroy that last functional turret? They had this on the bag!
This one qualifies for the game of throws...
I mean considering at 74-63 miles the Burke could use Harpoons idk but the other Sams & missiles also would rain terror also having no way to defend against any of this and the destroyers would never come into range of the Battleships idk
After watching so many of your videos, I’ve had a reoccurring dream of a wasp, 2 destroyers, one guided missile cruiser, a battleship (although they aren’t used anymore) and a tanker (sometimes a supply ship too) that went through a storm and came out in the mid 1500s and tried explaining to the English Navy that they wanted to stay 20k off the shore to try and get back to their time (usually set around the Caribbean) and the English Commodore refuses saying they are in English territorial waters and either attack the Americans or other times an American officer goes ashore to come to a compromise and explain the situation but they kidnap the American officer. They assume they are safe in their fort and the Americans fast rope in to retrieve their officer. Lol.
Can I request the same battle, but with a 1990s spec Iowa Class battleship instead of the destroyer? An Iowa does not have hangars, but six AH-64s will easily fit on the fantail.
16 Harpoons and 32 TASM's would've done quite a number on the Japanese fleet.
Also, if you guys had SH-60R's you'd have actually killed the enemy fleet faster, because they can carry Penguins. (I dont know if they're in DCS or not)
Commander Evans and the Johnston deserved something more than a medal of honor. That was absolutely insane. The Samuel B Roberts was pretty amazing, too.
The Johnston damn near did it alone.
The Burke could've sunk the battleships if it had the Block V Tomahawks.
I think an 055 might do better since it has dedicated anti-ship missiles.
Awesome entertainment as always, THY cap & GR. any chance of new carrier command or uboat sessions? :]
We have an entire channel now for CC2.
Very good thank you all!
How many WW2 IJN Yamato class battleships would you need to defeat a single 1988 USS Iowa class battleship? Would love to see this as a simulation, might take a few runs though as I fancy it takes quite a few Yamato's for a win.
So cool !
I hope that one day we see the whole range of modern ships
to the point, were you can even do a proper amphibious assault
with tanks on LCACs "'nd sh*t". 😋
I loved the Habitual_Linecrosser F-22 Reference by Sock. "Would you intercept me? I'd intercept me."
gives an even greater respect and awe of Taffy 3. ships & planes, one of the OMG battles of all time...
I loved the Habitual Linecrosser reference
My uncle was a plank owner and survivor of the USS Gambier Bay. Was on the same raft as some of the bridge officers (those who survived) and was in the water until the next morning or afternoon. (if memory is correct)
There was only one Yamato class battle ship their, it's sister ship was sunk the day before. The other JIN battleships were the Nagato, Kongo and Haruna. Heavy Cruisers Chokai, Haguro, Kumano, Suzuya, Chikuma, Tone. Two light cruisers and 11 destroyers.
"Im dead, somebody spawned inside me i think". 😂
If you'd had some proper anti-ship weapons on those choppers, this would absolutely have been a win. A couple of torpedoes under _Yamato's_ keel would've done the job.
Could the Helos have actually carried a MK48? I don't think they've ever been specced for it even if they could manage the weight. ASW torps, on the other hand, aren't going to do much except for, at best, puncturing a single compartment assuming it's a shaped charge variant. Realistically, 100lbs blast-frag just won't hurt Yammy much, and while a MK48 would, I don't see it getting there from a Helo.
@@josepetersen7112 MK48 is a submarine only weapon. And ASW torpedoes like mk46 have a 50kg warhead, which wouldn't do much of anything to a Yamato torpedo belt, plus not sure if they even go for surface targets at all.
My Grandpa was on a destroyer escort in that battle. That was a cool video.
What you DEFINITELY do not want to hear on the ship's intercom first thing in the morning. Capt Evan, USS Johnston, "Men, we are going into action against overwhelming odds. Survival is not likely. We will do what we can."
When those SM6s started smashing boats, some Japanese Captain was doing an Admiral Beatty: "There's something wrong with our bloody ships!"
ESSM has a surface attack mode, the Burke would have, in reality, emptied it's ESSM's into the enemy fleet once the kamakaze threat was gone. Even one ESSM can mission kill a modern destroyer.
ESSM does have a surface attack mode, but it only has an 86lb blast fragmentation warhead. it would do nothing to a BB, but it could mess up a DD and maybe a CL if it hits the right parts. The SM missiles also have a similar issue. The only things that would damage a BB would be the tomahawks.
@@jeffreyhughes5972 An ESSM barrage (Let alone SM2 or SM6) would kill every AA gun crew on the battleship, and completely destroy not just it's radar, but it's rangefinders as well.
Without range finders the battleship has almost no ability at all to attack.
ESSM hitting at mach 4 would also very likely have the kinetic energy to penetrate the secondary turrets, and very possibly cause a catostrophic explosion.
A barrage of ESSM would therefore have an enormous effect on a Battleship.
A single ESSM will wreck a modern DD or WWII light cruiser, easily.
@@Valorius I think you are wildly overestimating what an 86lbs burst fragmentation warhead can do. Yes the small caliber AA gun crews would be killed. In a small area. The guns may still be functional, and the gun crews of the turreted 5" guns would likely be fine. The ship had a large number of rangefinders, and they were all armored and would, aside from a direct hit on the optics themselves, likely be just fine.
And as for your assertation that a single ESSM would kill a modern ship, that's flat out laughable. The USS Cole survived a 400-700lbs shaped charge warhead detonated against its hull. The USS Samuel B. Roberts was struck by a naval mine, had it's keel broken and remained not only afloat but combat-capable the entire time. a single ESSM would cause significant localized damage, but it would not sink the ship and, unless it struck a weapons system directly would not put the ship out of action.
@@jeffreyhughes5972 ive seen what high explosives will do in person (I spent about a year in a heavy mortar platoon, as part of my time in the US Army Infantry).
A US 4.2" (107mm) mortar shell has 'only' 8lbs of HE and yet has a lethal fragmentation radius of 35 meters vs exposed personnel and soft skinned vehicles.
An ESSM warhead is a far, far more powerful thing than a 4.2" mortar.
ESSM's warhead has more explosive content than a super heavy 8" artillery shell (36lbs), and the ESSM optimized to create an extremely lethal fragmentation cloud.
A barrage of ESSMs on a battleship would do enormous damage to electronics, rangefinders and exposed personnel.
In 1992 a US carrier (USS Saratoga) shot Turkish destroyer *Muavenet* with a RIM-7 Sea Sparrow (90lb warhead), killing the captain and the entire bridge crew, and gutting the ship with fire.
And this despite operating as part of the US fleet and getting immediate and massive damage control assistance from surrounding US vessels.
There are numerous photos online of the Muavenet after the hit, and it is *completely* wrecked.
Getting hit with a missile is not the same effect as a mine at all, as the mine blast is underwater, and has no effect on the top side or exposed top side crew.
Getting hit with a barrage of ESSMs would mission kill any warship, and would cause massive casualties on a WWII destroyer with hundreds of exposed crew manning AAA defenses.
"The World wonders..." Why the fuck Halsey didn't turn around sooner. 😂
Last stand of the tin can salior was a awsome book
Is there a reason Tomahawks aren't being used? As of 2021 Block Va and Vb have anti-ship capability, with Vb specifically having an armor penetrating role.
Also: "Something wrong with Russian missiles today guys" so it is an accurate simulation of modern Russian equipment?
It's going to be interesting to do these simulations in the next few years once the new integrated data network is fully deployed, with hand-off ability for every radar guided missile. Not to mention whatever tech improvements have enabled significant range increases, such as for the AGM-179 JAGM-MR, the replacement for the TOW and Hellfire with a range of 16km (10 miles), or double the range for the same dimensions.
Good exercise!
Magnificent battle!
I love these. I'd love more fleshed out alt-naval fights. Find some retired fleet captains who game?
I spent my 32 year career dropping bombs, but I've got a friend from high school who drove boats for the Navy. Close enough?
@@itsjustme8947 yes, get your swabbie commanding their surface ships immediately! You know Star Citizen? Bet you're a freaking nightmare to fight.
@@exoterric Heh, my left eye is blind to remind me of the last mission I ever flew. Not too much of a nightmare to fight when your depth perception is exactly ZERO. I haven't strapped a fighter to my ass in almost 15 years now. Now, if I can break Carl away from his cushy job at Woods Hole...yeah, he'd have some fun.
30:20 lmao fire reference by sockington
Here's a request: Ohio class SSGN conversion sub taking on a whole Japanese fleet with 154 Block V Tomahawks, then finishing them off with torpedoes!
You should listen to Americas forgotten hero’s Ernest Evan’s orders left full rudder. It tells the tail of the battle and bill whittle tells it so well. You will fell like you are the one pushing on the heavy wheel as he yells orders Down through the rear hatch
Damn, but this was fun!
the US army is getting some land-based MK-41 VLS capable of firing SM-6 and Tomahawk cruise missiles.
😳 somebody goan’ be in a world a’ hurt should that unit go into combat.
you nkow those Mk-41 VLS missle pods on that unit shold just be monuted on the side turret armor on thsoe allready exesting arbram tanks instead with there own gidance and targting sistems that when hit by enemy fire would also reactal like very oversized reactive armor that would blow up even very large emey projetiltes. it would be far cheaper and far more easly for R&D time that would just be far more easy to do for the meantime.
Next attempt at this should be with a Tico or Wasp Class just to see how much difference the results have
The 5"/38 guns of US destryers weren't able to punch through Battleship and cruiser armor...but they could damage the superstructures of enemy ships...enough to make an enemy ship mission incapable-killing or wounding command personnel, damaging fire control gear and antiaircraft guns.
One unrealism here is the lack of USN aurcraft. In the real battle, Taffy 3s aircraft did a fair amount of damage to Kurita's force...especially when aircrsft from Taffy 1 and 2 arrived.
A bit of a personal note: My wife's uncle was a radioman on the USS White Plains (CVE-66) at the Battle of Leyte Gulf. He didn't talk too much about it other than to say it was very busy and harrowing as a 20 year old kid from Mason, TX. He did mention about how they took a hit that knocked out the entire electrical system, and they had it back online inside of 3 minutes.
30:10 Sock watches Habitual Line Crosser! 😂
That's funny, think of the hanger as Herman's handbag.
No Harpoons?
Heroic actions at such a level that I can’t get my head around.
Would you intercept me? I'd intercept me. Lol.
Well it looks like someone is watching habitual linecrosser.
as for the size of the hangar, I expected a "your mom" joke.
Right now I'm picturing the prototype French ship from Goldeneye the game and the hanger with the attack chopper taking off.
30:04 "punch it hunkmeyer", is that an Aliens quote, cuz I think it's Spunkmeyer
yes
for some reason, my brain switched Leyte gulf with the gulf of Tonkin. and i'm just like "i mean.... yes? it was only three torpedo boats.... they didn't stand a chance against a Sumner-class, they sure as heck don't stand a chance against an Arleigh Burke..."
the brain fog is real.
The Battle of Samar is where my ship's (USS Hoel, DDG-13) namesake (USS Hoel, DD-533) was sunk.
In terms of a single modern warship type that could really decimate a World War Two naval force, the SSGN or an SSN would be the best (without nuclear weapons). One Oscar II with all those giant anti-ship missiles plus a load out of 660mm torpedoes is quite the punch (assuming those torpedoes don’t explode onboard).
that was fun
F22: would you intercept me？ I would intercept me
Would have loved to see Halsey's Fleet of battle wagons, take on Kurita's Center thrust .
Yes it could have. These missiles did little damage. They can bust bunkers, but not wooden deck ships!
The computational power for a real simulation this size, would require a room full of high-end servers.
It's fun to watch and that's the point of it all.
Towards the end you guys should have tried to attack low from the front so you could unload the missiles and then crash. Just a thought!
I'm convinced the IJN would have watched all the destroyers taken and decide [once again] "Um. No. No no. Nope"
Imagine being the US Navy recon pilot, flying on a lovely day, and dropping down through the clouds to come face to face with the Yamato. The biggest and most powerful battleship ever built.
Trousers, I suspect, were duly decorated....
Could you imagine the pure torture of listening to that German guy constantly talk over everyone
The answer to this question, as with any of the other similar questions is always 'Who has more ammunition?'
Arleigh Burke has two Helicopter bays, as well as the ability to carry one more on the secondary flight deck, and displaces enough to handle it.
Love the HLC reference
It would be interesting to see if you could drop a TOW down one of the stacks. Or maybe down a gun barrel.....
30:18 goodbye horses 🎶
Realistically speaking, the moment several destroyers got obliterated by weapons that the IJN commanders can't understand, they'd have turned tail and ran.
If you don't understand the weapon then you're also clueless on where to flee too.
@@thystaff742 True, but continuing on the attack like that, wouldn't make sense. They'd know that the attack was coming from that general direction, so going that way, isn't a good idea. Best case scenario, they'd scatter to the winds and all directions. But most likely? The force commander would pick a new direction and turn, thinking that at first, it's some kind of hidden submarine and they're torpedoes. Then seeing they're coming from the air, he'd go back the way he came, ordering 'best speed', and have his ships make smoke in an effort to hide them from the attacker.
Likely thinking they're some kind of kamikaze attack. Akin to the Ohka bombs.
Always remember Taffy 3
And the little Sammy B
Gonna need a bigger boat. Also, what about outfitting some of the helicopters with bombs once some of the battleships guns are down?
I don't see a comment about this yet so I'll make one:
Taffy destroyers chased that japanese battle fleet away because they charged so confidently that the japanese admiral assumed it meant the main US fleet was close behind.
So similary, once you achieved a significant amount of damage on the japanese, they should have failed a moral check and left as well.
Also the Japanese miss identified some of the destroyers and thought they were cruisers. Also Kurita when he first sighted the escort jeep carriers thought they were the main carriers so he did not form up and ordered ships to charge in at first. So the fleet had issues in supporting each other.
How About Trying One Of The Old Reactivated Iowa Class Battleships; Now Armed With Missiles, Helicopters And Retaining Some Of Their Big Guns???
Roger
@@grimreapers Thank You! Wilco????? And Out.
Yeah, there is very little in all of history that could match the disparity of forces, and still result in a "win".
The very stamp and pattern of Duty.
Maybe worth revisiting after sorting out the ka-50 issues
Quite a good fight. Please re-do it
Add the Burke Torpedo launchers and I think you have a case!