You ask whether Clancy planned it out on a huge map? He and author/game designer Larry Bond wargammed out the naval battles for Red Storm Rising using a board game called Harpoon. The DCS of its day.
It was based on a mission that had been cooked up in Harpoon called "Convoy 84", and in fact "Convoy" was going to be a separate game altogether from Harpoon at that point. He discussed "Convoy" with Tom Clancy, who immediately said it would make a fantastic book. They shook hands on it, and together wrote what is IMO the best cold war battle story of all time. The chapter this particular vid is based on is tied for my 2nd favorite with the Battle of Alfeld chapter(s), with Frisbees of Dreamland being my all time favorite. I've collected Red Storm Rising books from all over the world. I was in a drill pipe band in the 80s when I was a teenager, and travelled the world with my band. I have dozens of paper back and hardcover books, my fav being an Australian paperback that is glass black with only orange flames on the cover with the title. I have an autographed hardcover - from both authors, as I met Tom Clancy in the late 1998/or 99 when I interviewed him about the first Red Storm INC game "Rainbow 6" for the PC. Good times.
Larry Bond sells a PDF describing wargaming Dance of the Vampires with Clancy and some others using Harpoon board game, worth a read if you think Clancy's book is as exceptional as I think it is. Can't find it right now, but If I recall correctly they wargamed it 2x. Didn't quite wargame the exact scenario that was in the RSR chapter for a finish, but it gave Clancy/Bond enough insight in to the dynamics to put a plausible scenario together
This re-enactment from the book needed Kortana ferry flying that F-15 across the atlantic and spotting the Badgers flying NORTHBOUND, giving the game away that the radar blips flying south toward the carrier were drones.
"Buns" didn't have any impact on the battle. She was just TC attempt to have another female character in the book. I loved RSR, got the Microprose C64 version, played Harpoon with my friends, I still have the books and lead ships. However as much as I loved RSR it was a very shallow book in terms of character development. This was TC second book and he did improve. The star of RSR were the battle scenes and how TC could describe the technology to a common person.
EXCELLENT - I was in AW Training with the Navy when the book came out, and some of my buddies and I would play Harpoon on weekends - huge macro-missions that took up 3-5 barracks rooms - one for Blue/Red and one for a group of umpires. Sometimes we would have the submarines with their own rooms (since comms between surface and subs is rare). Another interesting mission - update "Dance of the Vampires" by about 15 years when the Tico and Spruance class would have VLS launch systems rather than the 2 rail launchers. A CVBG IS spread out just like that - we could say with the group and RARELY see another ship UNLESS you were the Tico there in immediate support of the carrier (and that would be 0.5 to 1.0 miles off)
The Kelts were used not as decoys per se, but to simulate a multi-regiment Backfire attack. The Badgers operated as stand-off jammers. IIRC, the Backfires approached at low altitude, reducing the detection range of the E2s.
The point is they carried emitters to mimic more bombers (but I think Badgers) instead of just missiles, so the Tomcats volleyed off their Pheonixes at them thinking they were Badger regiments that hadn't fired in the carriers yet.
Also in the book there was a USAF ferry flight of F-15s, armed with one AIM-9 Sidewinder and full loads of 20mm, which encountered the northern group and destroyed three of them. They reported the kills to the Nimitz battlegroup and that was when they started thinking all was not as it seemed.........
CAP: I believe that Using the link 4 datalink E2C's could not just guide AIM-54s, they could literally take over the F-14, steer it onto target, and launch the missiles remotely. This is how massive simultaneous salvo launches could be accomplished even back in the 80s.(One of my subscribers just ran this by Ward Carrol- former F-14 RIO, Ward said E2Cs could fly/steer the F-14s, but the pilot had to hit the launch button. My subscriber told him about this video, hopefully he'll drop by and leave a comment :))
In the book there was also a flight of F15s ferrying to Europe with sidewinders that tore into the backfires and got some kills and gave early warning of the southern attack
Great video!!!! One thing about the SPRUANCE-class DDs, they didn't have Mk 13 launchers. They had a single octuple launcher for Sea Sparrow point defense missiles, which did not provide the area defense of a Standard SAM. My first ship was the USS JOHN HANCOCK (DD 981) and I was her Gunnery Officer from January 1991- January 1993.
Exactly, thanks for explaining that, the Spruances were very much ASW focused with only point defenses for air threats, no AREA AA defense. Later used as MK41 VLS testbeds but not SM guidance capable. The Hull design was modified to build the Ticonderogas.
Dance of the Vampires was modelled, or rather wargamed in a naval tabletop wargame called Harpoon by Larry Bond over a number of sessions (the newest version V came out a couple of years ago). The actual results were a bit fudged for the book, because Clancy wanted some specific results for his narrative (like Nimitz surviving taking a couple of hits but surviving to make a Yorktown resurrection story later in the book). As I recall the badgers and Backfire formations were both spread out in arc-like formations, to deny the tomcats the ability to mass their fire.
The first time I read RSR I was at Fort Sill, out in the field and sitting on top of my M113A3, at night. I was reading it under the light of my red lens minimag flash light, as MLRS missiles were streaking over my head every few minutes all night long. The good old days.
Great vid, been waiting for this one. Isn't it crazy the number of ships the USN had in a CBG back then? Hell, in the book, Clancy's character Toland even remarked how they were technically one CV short, as NATO doctrine was to have 4 carriers per battle group to be able to fight and survive in the Atlantic. Nowadays it's one CVN, 1 CG, and 2 or 3 Destroyers, and if lucky, a support frigate from a NATO partner, plus an oiler....and that's usually it.
Now THIS is what a I Call Quality Content. You Have a lot of Material to make a series of videos in Red Storm Rising Cap. I finished It a few months ago. You have the Iceland Invasion, the Keflaviks Raids, the Frisbees of dreamland, the airwar against the soviets in central Germany. Please Cap make it Happen!!!
I've wondered for some time after the F-15EX was put up if a combo of F-35's passive sensors with a B-52 at distance serving as a missile hauler wouldn't be viable. Keep the F-35 set up as Air to Air but then call in shots from the B-52. Serve sort of like a reverse AWACS. Then I realized I was describing this exact scenario in my head just with extra steps. Gotta imagine it's been at least looked at. Aerial version of the Arsenal Ship concept. Sadly I think the F-15EX is overall the better option not just due to size but you have more compatibility with other F-15 family units. Thinking logistics and crew. Not to mention B-52's just aren't meant for contested air space. Would be interesting to see if the F-15EX could be given the "Old Dog" treatment and have some nifty tricks up it's sleeves.
Great video! I'd love to see the revenge match, "Time on Target". "Nordic Hammer" would be cool as well. Hell, any of the missions from RSR would be awesome!
Cap: in the book The Tomcats had two x 220 gallon drop tanks each. Yours appear to have no drop tanks and that is why they did not have the range to even shoot, when coupled with the fact that the AI launches at half the range as was quoted in the book. In the book the F-14s went to Greenland after the attack.
9 seconds ago. Red Storm Rising was my dad's favourite book. I remember trying to mod the original red alert to do a soviet campaign for it. @cap in the book the point of following the decoys was to provide more radar signatures. You should re-run this, except allow the fighters to respond as they prefer - so have the backfires etc be detected at realistic ranges and things be dispatched to engage.
I listen to this audio book nearly every night, to get to sleep. I've heard it hundreds of times. I watch GR for hours a day too. So this is a match made in heaven for me!
Fantastic book, I was reading it in Berlin the night the wall came down, amazing how accurate it described the areas my regiment was to hold in the event of an attack and how low ( as a Chieftain tank reg)our life expectancy was.
One thing the book talked about was the fleet started radical evasive manoeuvring. Also they fired a lot of chaff, and the missiles were distracted by chaff clouds.
What a great job done simulating the most intense chapter in one of the best military novels i've ever read, especially considering the limitations of DCS. Now if only sub/asw combat could be improved to the point of being able to simulate "The Hunt for Red October".....just imagine all those subs racing for the US cost, or simming the close formation flare drops by A-10s over the Kirov....oh wait that's doable now!! There's my suggestion for the next Tom Clancy sim! Flare-boxing the Kirov without causing WW3!
This is one of my favorite books and my favorite chapters of that book. Not sure if it's mentioned in the video, but during the writing of RSR, Tom Clancy and Larry Bond (creator of the Harpoon wargaming system) played out 'Dance of the Vampires' scenario in Harpoon to create the battle.
They actually wargamed it out on a prototype game Bond was working on at the time called "Convoy", which used the Harpoon system more or less. Convoy 84 was the mission they whipped up in the Harpoon system later on.
Red Storm Rising and Hunt for Red October are still two of the best military books ever. I feel like Tom Clancy lost his touch with the Rainbow Six set of books but his original books are still the stuff of legends.
You absolutely right !!! It's because Clancy in Rainbow six have co-author that (I suppose) write the story under his direction, but is not written (as good as he do writing) by him, anyway are good romance even if not the masterpiece tecno-triller Tom Clancy write alone by himself. Top climax is when our hero become US President...
@@Yata69 I was on the Wadi, where they staged Eagle Talon, spent 6 months there, albeit some 8-ish years afterward. Then 3 months at Riyadh for Earnest Will. Then they were talking a couple other silly things when Gramm-Rudman happened.
During Praying Mantis US ships decoyed several Iranian missiles using only chaff. These missiles were very susceptible to chaff clouds that were bigger than the actual ship. The missiles always went for the biggest target and a big chaff cloud was easy to create. Plus jammers can make the ship itself look very small on radar, so the only thing the missile sees is chaff clouds. This is why the Nimitz was presumed to take only two survivable hits, and a handful of escorts along with Foch and an LHA got smashed. I think Clancy’s scenario emphasized the importance of land based interdiction from the UK before moving carriers too far north, and this is something the US Navy was aware of. You needed F-15s with tankers constantly over the North Sea to dissuade naked raids like this.
The whole point of the northern raid was to be detected - the reason the Badgers followed the missiles in (which were drones) was to make it look like a MUCH bigger raid, so the Tomcats went whole hog, wasted all their energy and missiles on the drones and a few badgers, and could nothing about the southern raid.
Red Storm Rising has gotta be my favorite Tom Clancy novel. He even included the stealth fighters in this book years before they were known to the public.
Clancy used the Harpoon tabletop minatures rules to model this attack and they did three run throughs trying different attack profiles before coming up with the attack he used in the book.
I don't know the background story at all, but I have to assume they modeled it three times in order to essentially increase the US CSG as much as possible while still failing. For example, how large and impressive can we have the US side be and still fail, which appears to be accomplished by the CSG formation and spread between SAM cover. Their formation was way too far apart to cover any time-on-target swarm attack, particularly supersonic missiles.
I've talked with Larry Bond about how he and Clancy wrote this chapter. I participated in a slimmed down version of this scenario using Larry's newer rules.
Great video trying to emulate possibly one of the best ficional books written for WW3... now the errors apologies in advance... Starting with the Reds the Badgers dropped their decoy missiles at 250nm or so the only aircraft that followed the Badgers in where 6 Tu-16J Jammer types which where the jamming version as to the Tu-22's they where air refuelled on the way out and back which allowed them to circle round the fleet and they didn't have to worry about Icelands defences on the way back (also back in the 80's the range of the Backfire was further than what it could do in real life it was thought to be around 4000nm with weapons as they where thought to be able to fly out into mid-atlantic). And now the Blue side starting with the French they had FOCH CV and 2 MASURCA equipped ships Colbert Cruiser and Suffren Frigate, 2 Duquesne T47 class frigates with SM-1 Tartar, the MASURCA was equivalent to SM-1 with slightly better range. The US side had the CVN Nimitz and CV Saratoga the 1 LHA's only 1 Tico with Mk26 launchers 2 Virginia class CGN 2 California CGN and then a mess of escorts, which aren't really mentioned in the book apart from USS Spruance as the ASW command ship, so the best guess without Tom Clancy and Larry Bond who designed the scenario CF Adams DDG Mk11(first ship) Mk13 with SM-1, and Farragut class DDG's MK10 launchers with SM2ER, these where the main air defence destroyers available in the mid 80's. The rest of them Spruances armed with Sea Sparrows and a mix of Knox and Perry class frigates. I did the same scenario in Harpoon which was a computer game version created from the tabletop game and used the above and still got my butt kicked a fair few times even though I made it... The boardgame Harpoon was used by Clancy and Bond to game out the scenario though they did have some limits on fuel as stated it was slightly skewed due to thinking that the Tu-22's could fly nearly twice the range that they can in reality add in air to air refueling and that's how you get Tu-22's south of the fleet...
If I could make a suggestion for a scenario, in the same book in a further chapter Time On Target, a OHP Frigate and a British Frigate along with a US SH-60 and a British Seaking fooled soviet missile by sailing in close formation and splitting up to fool the missiles.
In the early/mid 80s the RAF had Jaguars, Buccaneers and Tornado GR1 (replacing Buccaneers) stationed in Germany loaded with WE.177s for QRA (Nuclear) purposes. There can't be many aircraft more underrated and underestimated than the Jaguar - they were rated to carry 2x450kt nukes.
Wonderful replay of a Great Book battle. I remember reading 500pages of that book over the course of one day I was so engrossed. As far as suggestions to dial back the vampire breakthrough, the Ticos can be closer in, as well as the OHP's. Only a couple were needed for far off ASW. When Raid 2 is spotted, since they know Raid 1 is a feint, have all Ticos and OHP's go to flank speed to match bearing on Raid 2, to push the SAM envelope further to the SW.
I spoke to an old Canadian CF-104 pilot a few years ago. He was stationed in Europe and was assigned to drop American nukes from his plane. He said they all knew it was a one way trip. They were supposed to fly in super low, drop the nuke, ditch there plane, and find cover. Absolutely no time to fly out of the EMP or turn around to go home.
As a repeat reader of Red Storm Rising, I've gotta say; "WELL BLOODY DONE"". Mind you never mind what that Southern E2 was doing missing all those Backfires on radar, surely anyone within about 200 miles would've heard all those sonic boombs!
As i recall(its been a few years) the Nimitz (although I thought it was America, but again its been a while) took 2 hits, sailed to Southampton for repairs then supported the invasion/liberation of Iceland
INCREDIBLE JOB!!! I recently re-read the book and I'm still amazed at the quality and accuracy of TC's writing, it was just as good today as it was when I read it in the 80's. ANy chance you'll post the .miz file?
What the sim really needs is chaff, decoys, and ECM for ships. They are very very well protected by more than just weapons. But this does the best with the limits of the system.
Favorite book as a kid, read it first @ 11, a bit young for the rape scene, but not too young for the sheer volume of badassery. Red Storm Rising is still unequaled but man i'd love to see a modern remake. You could absolutely do a full series showing these engagements and me and every RSR fan would be enthralled.
I remember something about a chapter in which an AF Colonel on the lamb from the Soviets in Iceland calling in the contrails with a satellite radio. Must have looked like a WWII B-17 formation. Awe inspiring.
One of my absolute favorite books. The other one is, and I don't remember the author, is "Piece of Cake" about a WWII RAF Hurricane squadron from the attack on France to the Battle of Britain. It would be interesting to revisit this video with Tu-160s , F/A-××, and Rafael especially with Meteor and AIM-260s.
Im betting Clancy simulated his battle stats by rolling dice or just using Jane's data along with just how he wanted to have the battle go.Edit; just read the top comment...so he used harpoon.
I was stationed in Iceland with my father (retired Air Force) from 1972 to 1974. I remember intercepts against Russian Bear and Badger bombers would happen very often.
What a coincidence! I'm listening to the Red Storm RIsing audiobook and was listening to this chapter last week. Yesterday I found out about your sea battle simulations and today you release a video on this battle. Really cool video, seeing it all play out in real time and with those stunning graphics on top
There is a passage in the book in an earlier chapter where the Airboss describes how he will fight the battle. As they had raid warning from iceland they had an approx time on target for the bombers. The Airboss juggled his fighters so that at the time needed he had all 48 Tomcats in squadrons (not just flights) '200 miles out and we will kick their ass", ripple firing. The kelt swarm did not need a precise target location. But the Kingfish did. So a Bear-D had to light up the carriers with its radar (which had all been kept silent). This was the first detection of raid 2 and as i remember the Backfires were never seen on radar, only the missiles were. So the carrier was pantsless with the Toms out of missiles and a fartsack of Kingfish headed to your floaty base. Even though you have just done this scenario a Mk2 might be in order..... Love your work....
Red Storm Rising...first Tom Clancy book I read, as much as I love Jack Ryan character...overall RSR is my favorite Clancy novel. Harold Coyle - Team Yankee is a good author / novel as well.
Great simulation, if I remember correctly after the attack in a later chapter there is comment that a carrier force like that should have had 4 x CVNs to operate that far north. Would be interesting to see the result with the additional 48 Tomcats, additional E2-Cs and extra SM2 ships. Feel it would be a very different result.
They had 4 Hawkeyes and multiple reports of the inbound raid. Harpoon taught me the answer in this case is Hawkeyes far enough out to ensure nobody gets eyeballs (radar) on your fleet. Russia had nothing that could have intercepted them.
I loved "Red Storm Rising" when I read it in high school, as I loved many many Tom Clancy books. "Without Remorse" is probably my favorite. I don't think there's anything applicable for a DCS mission from that one though lol.
LOVE THIS BOOK. I read it on my own in high school, THEN it became required reading for a social studies honors class my senior year. So I read it twice by '92. I am read it again since then plus I have listened to the audio book multiple times. GREAT BOOK! It was ahead of its time.
omg this is so cool!! loved watching this & being able to visualize the chapter that I loved so much and reread so much! I’m sure other people have said this, but you forgot about the F-15 ferry flight - that pilot used to be one of my role models
Great job Cap and co! The large formation is probably due to nukes. Spread out and one nuke won’t get the whole fleet. Also back then there was no CEC to coordinate SAM ships so spacing them out made it easier to avoid interference and issues with missile guidance.
37:07 That's actually a interesting question. I assume that the response would be F-117 nighthawks, but Tom Clancy wouldn't have known about that while writting his book where this happens in 1985. The nighthawk was released to the public in 1988. So... 🤷♂️ Regardless, excellent content as always! Been subscribed for the last year and always enjoy these wargames!
One of the first few chapters after the war starts goes from the pov of an F-117 pilot doing a deep strike on an AWACS. And eventually shooting it down, and then you hear from the pov of an AWACS operator with confirmation of all 5 Soviet AWACS being downed. It’s a really cool chapter actually. Edit: specifically chapter 17 “The Frisbees of Dreamland”
@@clanmeademagruder9692 And that's what I get from not reading the book- Wait a minute... I just checked the Wikipedia page and the book came out in 1986. But the F-117 nighthawk wasn't revealed to the public for another 2 years! 🥴 Ugh, I worked all night, and still haven't got a functioning design. My head hurts, I'm going to bed. Some explain this violation of 1980's national security to me and I'll thank you in 7-9 hours from now.
@@classifiedveteran9879 In an interview he stated that he compiled stories from test pilots (hence the name “frisbee” in the book calling back to the “wobbling’ goblin” in real life. He also took info from “UFO” spotters and plane spotters around Area 51 and other facilities to create an idea of what the advanced stealth aircraft would be. He called it the (forgive me if I’m wrong, haven’t read the book in a while) F-19 Frisbee, a stealth aircraft capable of deep penetration attacks. In the book, these are a major pain for the soviets, as they have next to no way to counter them. TLDR: he took public knowledge and came to his own conclusions, which wasn’t too far from real life. Hope this helps you understand!
@@classifiedveteran9879 The F-117 wasnt revealed until later but the existence of it and general operating parameters was widely known at the time, given the designation F-19 by the media/observers (note to US, skipping a number and going from F-18 Hornet to F-20 Tigershark isnt a great way to hide an aircrafts existence). I believe in the book Clancy called it the F-19A Ghostrider with the callsign frisbee but that might have been changed to F-119 in later editions.
Love this! One major thing though - the F-8 could only carry four AIM-9's, and I don't think it was capable of Sparrows, as only later models had more than a ranging-radar for their guns. The only other guided missile I know it ever did carry was the air to ground Bullpup, on the "J" variant (question mark?), so those F-4's were FAR more capable of intercept (still only at 32 minutes in, just wanted to make the observation)
Wow!! That was epic. Well done Cap for modelling all of this, and a great job by all of the Grim Reapers as well. I'm off to watch the updated version to see how it turns out.
HEY! I was one of the requesters, excited to see you guys do it! *Edit Going off memory here, but I swear that the carrier group only had 2 Hawkeyes up at the time of the raid. NW and NE? Thought the Bears used their emissions to triangulate the Carriers locations.
You were part of the like 500 people who requested this lol, theres atleast a few guys asking for it in the comments of every naval battle, and I think your right about the E-2s, the bears find the locations of the E-2s and logically said the carrier is in the middle of them, but idk, havent read it in a few months.
@@ttpechon2535 IRL, the USN knew better than to do this, as they used deceptive positioning of the AWACS and emissions control several times during exercises in the Norwegian Sea and the NW Pacific *before* 1985 to "hide" the carriers from Soviet maritime surveillance aircraft.
In the book the bears plot the 2 northern E2C's and then just after 06:00 plot the pair to the south of the battle group, forming a box, the slow drifting eastwards giving a rough speed of 20 knots
Great simulation...loved every minute...I would love to see other battles from books reenacted by my favourite gamers...especially with the cap commentary
I love your realism in modeling this out. As much as Clancy modeled it out fairly realisticly, he had to allow the plot armor for one of his main characters in the novel, the Navel Intel Officer, who I believe was in CIC on one of the carriers. There are a more than a few instances, mostly with the weatherman on Iceland, but it is still one of my favorite books. I listen to the audiobook at least once a year, it never gets old.
The super wide fleet arrangement makes sense given the very real possibility of attack with nuclear tipped torpedoes and/or nuclear armed missiles (for example, the AS-6 Kingfish could be equipped with a 350 Kt warhead, and the older Kitchen had a nuclear option as well).
I can't think of any off-hand, but if valued viewers have any more book and movie suggestions for naval/air battles, this type of video was really cool.
Great show. General comment on tactics... If you're setting a trap you will want your quarry to see whatever they would expect to see. Play into their biases and avoid doing anything that will make them wonder about what's going on. 👍
I want to say one of the big cause in difference of outcomes was how much secrecy was around AEGIS at the time. Since it was just coming out Clancy likely only had so much to go on and most of that said it was the bees knees. OSINT was basically whatever you could get leaked to you or read in magazines like Popular Mechanics. That said I don't think it would matter much if it had really happened. That many missiles could likely cause the system to panic. Can't remember wear but I think at one time near there it was a limit of 96 or 100 objects could be tracked and engaged at a time. So 400 missiles/decoys, plus friendlies, plus bandits and all in two different directions with jamming support to burn through. Isn't hard to see how the system tries it's best but can't endure this. Still a great scene to see played out. Shows how the Convoy War in the Atlantic is different in the Modern age of missiles and bombers versus WWII U-boats.
Great video, enjoy them all. The O.H. Perry Class Guided Missile Frigates did not utilize the SM-2 missile in the 1980's, or ever that I know of. The missile utilized in these Frigates was the less capable SM-1. I was a USN MK-13 GMLS technician back then. The Australian Navy, did obtain some ex-US Perry Class Frigates, and eventually upgrade in them in many ways, including utilizing the SM-2 missile with the MK-13 GMLS. Great job on the videos, keep em' coming!
Great video. I used to play Harpoon which Clancy used a lot and does anyone else remember the RSR game on the commodore. Man some days I wish I could go back in time and play it.
I read Red October and Red Storm Rising as a Midshipman, and was actually on my First Class cruise, reading Storm again, when news broke of Red October being made into a movie. I was excited by that, but have always thought they should have followed up with Storm.
Hey Cap, awesome video as usual! Just curious, it looked like the OHPs weren't firing at all - maybe this was why so many more missiles made it through? I would also be very interested to see this same scenario with an equivalent US 2020s CSG and maybe even more modern Russian/Chinese attackers to see how this would go nowdays.
The Backfires got in close due to the jamming by the Badgers. The Badgers that followed the Kelts in were the jammers not the weapon carriers. They had the exrra range because they were not carrying the Kelts on the external hardpoints. This mission really showed that even with 2 CSG the USN were very vulnerable to a mass attack. The second strike during the battle off Iceland showed the need for more aircraft and the split in the bomber regiments made them vulnerable to the Tomcats.
Spread out because ASW warfare was done in rings - the Perry's and Spruances would have been working the picket, while the air defense ships were much closer in.
Cap mixed up the nomenclature. The Tu-16 Badger is/was an older non supersonic strategic bomber. The Tu-142 Bear is a recon and anti-sub aircraft. The Tu-22M Backfire is/was the USSRs swept-wing supersonic strategic bomber which carry the Kingfish ASuM (Kitchen in the sim). The Tu-95 are subsonic strategic bombers. He said Raid #1 was Tu-142s but he meant Tu-16 Badgers. Also, the Tu-95s should actually be Tu-142 Bears as per their recon role. All of these were operational in 1985 when the book states the battle happened.
There has always been a high profile unit within the U.S. Military who wore the cross of the Templars...which I think started first with the British Crusaders Mark I during WW2 , In Iraq 2 were working at the same time, as the Crusaders' Tank unit was packing up to leave , SEAL Team 3 with Chris Kyle were the Crusaders' and wore the cross , while searching for the Syrian Olympic sniper , the tank unit had to unload tanks and bring them to a wall that was being constructed , that we were losing a man a day from that sniper...as SEAL Team 3 set up on a roof top to find his nest .
Modernized 2020's version: th-cam.com/video/4nREdYN06ts/w-d-xo.html
You ask whether Clancy planned it out on a huge map? He and author/game designer Larry Bond wargammed out the naval battles for Red Storm Rising using a board game called Harpoon. The DCS of its day.
i used to played Harpoon back in the day lol
It was based on a mission that had been cooked up in Harpoon called "Convoy 84", and in fact "Convoy" was going to be a separate game altogether from Harpoon at that point. He discussed "Convoy" with Tom Clancy, who immediately said it would make a fantastic book. They shook hands on it, and together wrote what is IMO the best cold war battle story of all time. The chapter this particular vid is based on is tied for my 2nd favorite with the Battle of Alfeld chapter(s), with Frisbees of Dreamland being my all time favorite.
I've collected Red Storm Rising books from all over the world. I was in a drill pipe band in the 80s when I was a teenager, and travelled the world with my band. I have dozens of paper back and hardcover books, my fav being an Australian paperback that is glass black with only orange flames on the cover with the title. I have an autographed hardcover - from both authors, as I met Tom Clancy in the late 1998/or 99 when I interviewed him about the first Red Storm INC game "Rainbow 6" for the PC. Good times.
Tom Clancy would have probably gotten a hard on if he found out about Command: Modern Operations.
Larry Bond sells a PDF describing wargaming Dance of the Vampires with Clancy and some others using Harpoon board game, worth a read if you think Clancy's book is as exceptional as I think it is. Can't find it right now, but If I recall correctly they wargamed it 2x. Didn't quite wargame the exact scenario that was in the RSR chapter for a finish, but it gave Clancy/Bond enough insight in to the dynamics to put a plausible scenario together
I have most of the original harpoon books!
This re-enactment from the book needed Kortana ferry flying that F-15 across the atlantic and spotting the Badgers flying NORTHBOUND, giving the game away that the radar blips flying south toward the carrier were drones.
Orrrrrr, have Kortana fire the ASAT at the satellite
YES!
Didn't give the game away because the RADM of the Nimitz battle group disbelieved the report, deciding they were aborted Badgers heading home early.
"Buns" didn't have any impact on the battle. She was just TC attempt to have another female character in the book.
I loved RSR, got the Microprose C64 version, played Harpoon with my friends, I still have the books and lead ships. However as much as I loved RSR it was a very shallow book in terms of character development. This was TC second book and he did improve. The star of RSR were the battle scenes and how TC could describe the technology to a common person.
" She was just TC attempt to have another female character..."???
That seems to bother you eh, @@Emperorvalse ???
"Red Storm Rising" is one of my all time favorite books. Glad to see you all doing this. The attack on the air base was intense as well!
Any idea of where I can find an audiobook version?
I have a copy with the red cover that Cap showed. It's falling apart, but then a well-loved 25 year old paperback is never going to be in good shape!
@@gruntopolouski5919 its on Audible
@@gruntopolouski5919 th-cam.com/video/jOb8eiGQdJA/w-d-xo.html
EXCELLENT - I was in AW Training with the Navy when the book came out, and some of my buddies and I would play Harpoon on weekends - huge macro-missions that took up 3-5 barracks rooms - one for Blue/Red and one for a group of umpires. Sometimes we would have the submarines with their own rooms (since comms between surface and subs is rare).
Another interesting mission - update "Dance of the Vampires" by about 15 years when the Tico and Spruance class would have VLS launch systems rather than the 2 rail launchers.
A CVBG IS spread out just like that - we could say with the group and RARELY see another ship UNLESS you were the Tico there in immediate support of the carrier (and that would be 0.5 to 1.0 miles off)
The Kelts were used not as decoys per se, but to simulate a multi-regiment Backfire attack. The Badgers operated as stand-off jammers. IIRC, the Backfires approached at low altitude, reducing the detection range of the E2s.
A decoy IS a simulated attack. That's what the dictionary will tell you.
The point is they carried emitters to mimic more bombers (but I think Badgers) instead of just missiles, so the Tomcats volleyed off their Pheonixes at them thinking they were Badger regiments that hadn't fired in the carriers yet.
Also in the book there was a USAF ferry flight of F-15s, armed with one AIM-9 Sidewinder and full loads of 20mm, which encountered the northern group and destroyed three of them. They reported the kills to the Nimitz battlegroup and that was when they started thinking all was not as it seemed.........
CAP: I believe that Using the link 4 datalink E2C's could not just guide AIM-54s, they could literally take over the F-14, steer it onto target, and launch the missiles remotely.
This is how massive simultaneous salvo launches could be accomplished even back in the 80s.(One of my subscribers just ran this by Ward Carrol- former F-14 RIO, Ward said E2Cs could fly/steer the F-14s, but the pilot had to hit the launch button. My subscriber told him about this video, hopefully he'll drop by and leave a comment :))
In the book there was also a flight of F15s ferrying to Europe with sidewinders that tore into the backfires and got some kills and gave early warning of the southern attack
Major "Buns"...ASAT ace. 😃
They were shooting at Tu-16 Badgers
Buns Nakamura!
That's the Badger! 😂
Including a very excellent performance by a female asian-american pilot
Great video!!!! One thing about the SPRUANCE-class DDs, they didn't have Mk 13 launchers. They had a single octuple launcher for Sea Sparrow point defense missiles, which did not provide the area defense of a Standard SAM. My first ship was the USS JOHN HANCOCK (DD 981) and I was her Gunnery Officer from January 1991- January 1993.
Exactly, thanks for explaining that, the Spruances were very much ASW focused with only point defenses for air threats, no AREA AA defense. Later used as MK41 VLS testbeds but not SM guidance capable. The Hull design was modified to build the Ticonderogas.
Dance of the Vampires was modelled, or rather wargamed in a naval tabletop wargame called Harpoon by Larry Bond over a number of sessions (the newest version V came out a couple of years ago). The actual results were a bit fudged for the book, because Clancy wanted some specific results for his narrative (like Nimitz surviving taking a couple of hits but surviving to make a Yorktown resurrection story later in the book). As I recall the badgers and Backfire formations were both spread out in arc-like formations, to deny the tomcats the ability to mass their fire.
The first time I read RSR I was at Fort Sill, out in the field and sitting on top of my M113A3, at night. I was reading it under the light of my red lens minimag flash light, as MLRS missiles were streaking over my head every few minutes all night long.
The good old days.
REDLEGS! Good Ole Fort Sill! (I was there in the early 00s)
@@ji3194 Is the Golden Dragon strip club still there? 🤣
Great vid, been waiting for this one. Isn't it crazy the number of ships the USN had in a CBG back then? Hell, in the book, Clancy's character Toland even remarked how they were technically one CV short, as NATO doctrine was to have 4 carriers per battle group to be able to fight and survive in the Atlantic. Nowadays it's one CVN, 1 CG, and 2 or 3 Destroyers, and if lucky, a support frigate from a NATO partner, plus an oiler....and that's usually it.
Now THIS is what a I Call Quality Content. You Have a lot of Material to make a series of videos in Red Storm Rising Cap. I finished It a few months ago.
You have the Iceland Invasion, the Keflaviks Raids, the Frisbees of dreamland, the airwar against the soviets in central Germany. Please Cap make it Happen!!!
Now CH needs to model the Megafortress from Dale Brown’s “Flight of the Old Dog”
I have had dreams of this for a while. But first CH NEEDS to do the f111
I've mentioned the " Battleship Bomber " concept from Dale Brown's books on the comments on another GR vid 👍🙂
This!!!
I've wondered for some time after the F-15EX was put up if a combo of F-35's passive sensors with a B-52 at distance serving as a missile hauler wouldn't be viable. Keep the F-35 set up as Air to Air but then call in shots from the B-52. Serve sort of like a reverse AWACS.
Then I realized I was describing this exact scenario in my head just with extra steps. Gotta imagine it's been at least looked at. Aerial version of the Arsenal Ship concept.
Sadly I think the F-15EX is overall the better option not just due to size but you have more compatibility with other F-15 family units. Thinking logistics and crew. Not to mention B-52's just aren't meant for contested air space. Would be interesting to see if the F-15EX could be given the "Old Dog" treatment and have some nifty tricks up it's sleeves.
Yes please. Also some other modified bombers from some of his other books.
Great video! I'd love to see the revenge match, "Time on Target". "Nordic Hammer" would be cool as well. Hell, any of the missions from RSR would be awesome!
operation dreamland would be good as well
@fedster187 They would have to use something to simulate the fictional "F-19", and an F-117 wouldn't work. The closest would probably be an F-35A.
Cap: in the book The Tomcats had two x 220 gallon drop tanks each.
Yours appear to have no drop tanks and that is why they did not have the range to even shoot, when coupled with the fact that the AI launches at half the range as was quoted in the book.
In the book the F-14s went to Greenland after the attack.
Actually the air group from Nimitz went to the UK to help with defending the northern part.
9 seconds ago.
Red Storm Rising was my dad's favourite book. I remember trying to mod the original red alert to do a soviet campaign for it.
@cap in the book the point of following the decoys was to provide more radar signatures.
You should re-run this, except allow the fighters to respond as they prefer - so have the backfires etc be detected at realistic ranges and things be dispatched to engage.
made this map on janes fleet command but could never quite get it to work out
the F14 always went for the planes instead of the missiles
I would like to see this without as much scripting so the bombers are detected sooner by the AWACs.
@@leepatterson5710 Yes that's what I meant. Let them off the leash and see if they respond properly.
@@fedster187Yeah you have to micromanage each missile shot to get them to shoot at missiles.
I listen to this audio book nearly every night, to get to sleep. I've heard it hundreds of times. I watch GR for hours a day too. So this is a match made in heaven for me!
Fantastic book, I was reading it in Berlin the night the wall came down, amazing how accurate it described the areas my regiment was to hold in the event of an attack and how low ( as a Chieftain tank reg)our life expectancy was.
One thing the book talked about was the fleet started radical evasive manoeuvring. Also they fired a lot of chaff, and the missiles were distracted by chaff clouds.
What a great job done simulating the most intense chapter in one of the best military novels i've ever read, especially considering the limitations of DCS. Now if only sub/asw combat could be improved to the point of being able to simulate "The Hunt for Red October".....just imagine all those subs racing for the US cost, or simming the close formation flare drops by A-10s over the Kirov....oh wait that's doable now!! There's my suggestion for the next Tom Clancy sim! Flare-boxing the Kirov without causing WW3!
This is one of my favorite books and my favorite chapters of that book. Not sure if it's mentioned in the video, but during the writing of RSR, Tom Clancy and Larry Bond (creator of the Harpoon wargaming system) played out 'Dance of the Vampires' scenario in Harpoon to create the battle.
They actually wargamed it out on a prototype game Bond was working on at the time called "Convoy", which used the Harpoon system more or less. Convoy 84 was the mission they whipped up in the Harpoon system later on.
That Admiral Baker which who was believing that the Kelt missile decoys was the 'damn b l i n k i n' backfires 'Damn idiot!
Red Storm Rising and Hunt for Red October are still two of the best military books ever. I feel like Tom Clancy lost his touch with the Rainbow Six set of books but his original books are still the stuff of legends.
You absolutely right !!!
It's because Clancy in Rainbow six have co-author that (I suppose) write the story under his direction, but is not written (as good as he do writing) by him, anyway are good romance even if not the masterpiece tecno-triller Tom Clancy write alone by himself.
Top climax is when our hero become US President...
That's because those were cash grabs from a very old tom clancy who probably had nothing to do with them in reality.
Hunt for Red October was my favorite, but The Bear and The Dragon comes a little before Red Storm Rising in my top 3.
Without Remorse.
Maybe something in his private life which who was bothering him Which who was to know?
I first read it when I was in the Air Force in the late 80's.
Pretty scary how accurate some of the minute details are.
Same here.
Wow, amazing how many of us did. Mar 81-Nov 89.
@@spikymikie '85-'89 here, then I got budget-legislated out.
My buddy was pulled back, he was part AGIS development!
@@Yata69 I was on the Wadi, where they staged Eagle Talon, spent 6 months there, albeit some 8-ish years afterward. Then 3 months at Riyadh for Earnest Will. Then they were talking a couple other silly things when Gramm-Rudman happened.
The F-4Bs are way more heavily armed than the F-8s, but other than that it looks like a really close approximation - thanks GR team!
During Praying Mantis US ships decoyed several Iranian missiles using only chaff. These missiles were very susceptible to chaff clouds that were bigger than the actual ship. The missiles always went for the biggest target and a big chaff cloud was easy to create.
Plus jammers can make the ship itself look very small on radar, so the only thing the missile sees is chaff clouds. This is why the Nimitz was presumed to take only two survivable hits, and a handful of escorts along with Foch and an LHA got smashed. I think Clancy’s scenario emphasized the importance of land based interdiction from the UK before moving carriers too far north, and this is something the US Navy was aware of. You needed F-15s with tankers constantly over the North Sea to dissuade naked raids like this.
I just finished this book for the second time and was going to request this. Perfect timing!
you will end up reading it once or twice a year always a great book to pick up
The whole point of the northern raid was to be detected - the reason the Badgers followed the missiles in (which were drones) was to make it look like a MUCH bigger raid, so the Tomcats went whole hog, wasted all their energy and missiles on the drones and a few badgers, and could nothing about the southern raid.
Red Storm Rising has gotta be my favorite Tom Clancy novel. He even included the stealth fighters in this book years before they were known to the public.
I remember back then, when everyone thought the F-19 was real.)
Clancy used the Harpoon tabletop minatures rules to model this attack and they did three run throughs trying different attack profiles before coming up with the attack he used in the book.
I don't know the background story at all, but I have to assume they modeled it three times in order to essentially increase the US CSG as much as possible while still failing. For example, how large and impressive can we have the US side be and still fail, which appears to be accomplished by the CSG formation and spread between SAM cover. Their formation was way too far apart to cover any time-on-target swarm attack, particularly supersonic missiles.
I've talked with Larry Bond about how he and Clancy wrote this chapter. I participated in a slimmed down version of this scenario using Larry's newer rules.
Red Storm Rising is a great book. Amazing simulation, thank you!
Cap, this is your crowning achievement, I think. You long ago proved DCS is an able naval warfare sim. I've been waiting for this ever since.
Great video trying to emulate possibly one of the best ficional books written for WW3... now the errors apologies in advance... Starting with the Reds the Badgers dropped their decoy missiles at 250nm or so the only aircraft that followed the Badgers in where 6 Tu-16J Jammer types which where the jamming version as to the Tu-22's they where air refuelled on the way out and back which allowed them to circle round the fleet and they didn't have to worry about Icelands defences on the way back (also back in the 80's the range of the Backfire was further than what it could do in real life it was thought to be around 4000nm with weapons as they where thought to be able to fly out into mid-atlantic). And now the Blue side starting with the French they had FOCH CV and 2 MASURCA equipped ships Colbert Cruiser and Suffren Frigate, 2 Duquesne T47 class frigates with SM-1 Tartar, the MASURCA was equivalent to SM-1 with slightly better range. The US side had the CVN Nimitz and CV Saratoga the 1 LHA's only 1 Tico with Mk26 launchers 2 Virginia class CGN 2 California CGN and then a mess of escorts, which aren't really mentioned in the book apart from USS Spruance as the ASW command ship, so the best guess without Tom Clancy and Larry Bond who designed the scenario CF Adams DDG Mk11(first ship) Mk13 with SM-1, and Farragut class DDG's MK10 launchers with SM2ER, these where the main air defence destroyers available in the mid 80's. The rest of them Spruances armed with Sea Sparrows and a mix of Knox and Perry class frigates. I did the same scenario in Harpoon which was a computer game version created from the tabletop game and used the above and still got my butt kicked a fair few times even though I made it... The boardgame Harpoon was used by Clancy and Bond to game out the scenario though they did have some limits on fuel as stated it was slightly skewed due to thinking that the Tu-22's could fly nearly twice the range that they can in reality add in air to air refueling and that's how you get Tu-22's south of the fleet...
If I could make a suggestion for a scenario, in the same book in a further chapter Time On Target, a OHP Frigate and a British Frigate along with a US SH-60 and a British Seaking fooled soviet missile by sailing in close formation and splitting up to fool the missiles.
In the early/mid 80s the RAF had Jaguars, Buccaneers and Tornado GR1 (replacing Buccaneers) stationed in Germany loaded with WE.177s for QRA (Nuclear) purposes. There can't be many aircraft more underrated and underestimated than the Jaguar - they were rated to carry 2x450kt nukes.
I've played HARPOON IV games with Larry Bond running the game a few times. Larry talked about writing this chapter. I will forward this video to him.
Wonderful replay of a Great Book battle. I remember reading 500pages of that book over the course of one day I was so engrossed. As far as suggestions to dial back the vampire breakthrough, the Ticos can be closer in, as well as the OHP's. Only a couple were needed for far off ASW. When Raid 2 is spotted, since they know Raid 1 is a feint, have all Ticos and OHP's go to flank speed to match bearing on Raid 2, to push the SAM envelope further to the SW.
Simply wonderful. The Grim Reapers have been doing some amazing war game simulations.
Cheers!!
From what I recall, after the battle, the F-14's diverted to Scotland along with the A-6's and KA-6's and EA-6's that had been airborne
The F-14s divert to one of the other carriers, but after the convoy crosses the Atlantic they are redeployed to Scotland for a while.
I spoke to an old Canadian CF-104 pilot a few years ago. He was stationed in Europe and was assigned to drop American nukes from his plane. He said they all knew it was a one way trip. They were supposed to fly in super low, drop the nuke, ditch there plane, and find cover. Absolutely no time to fly out of the EMP or turn around to go home.
As a repeat reader of Red Storm Rising, I've gotta say; "WELL BLOODY DONE"". Mind you never mind what that Southern E2 was doing missing all those Backfires on radar, surely anyone within about 200 miles would've heard all those sonic boombs!
Former Forrestal sailor here. It hurts to watch it burn even though it’s long been scrapped.
As i recall(its been a few years) the Nimitz (although I thought it was America, but again its been a while) took 2 hits, sailed to Southampton for repairs then supported the invasion/liberation of Iceland
This is amazing. Great work GR!
INCREDIBLE JOB!!! I recently re-read the book and I'm still amazed at the quality and accuracy of TC's writing, it was just as good today as it was when I read it in the 80's. ANy chance you'll post the .miz file?
Agreed, sure DM me in Discord.
This was a great scenario from a fantastic book. Great job Cap.
This is what modern surface naval warfare will be like. Not just a bunch of guns shooting at close range as if it were the Battle of Trafalgar.
What the sim really needs is chaff, decoys, and ECM for ships. They are very very well protected by more than just weapons. But this does the best with the limits of the system.
I’ve been waiting for this forever and you exceeded my expectations immeasurably. Thank you Cap!!!
Favorite book as a kid, read it first @ 11, a bit young for the rape scene, but not too young for the sheer volume of badassery. Red Storm Rising is still unequaled but man i'd love to see a modern remake. You could absolutely do a full series showing these engagements and me and every RSR fan would be enthralled.
I watched RoboCop (original) when I was four. : )
It may explain a lot hah.
I remember something about a chapter in which an AF Colonel on the lamb from the Soviets in Iceland calling in the contrails with a satellite radio. Must have looked like a WWII B-17 formation. Awe inspiring.
One of my absolute favorite books. The other one is, and I don't remember the author, is "Piece of Cake" about a WWII RAF Hurricane squadron from the attack on France to the Battle of Britain. It would be interesting to revisit this video with Tu-160s , F/A-××, and Rafael especially with Meteor and AIM-260s.
Im betting Clancy simulated his battle stats by rolling dice or just using Jane's data along with just how he wanted to have the battle go.Edit; just read the top comment...so he used harpoon.
i absolutely loved this book! i hope to see more recreated battles from it, by you guys.
I was stationed in Iceland with my father (retired Air Force) from 1972 to 1974. I remember intercepts against Russian Bear and Badger bombers would happen very often.
What a coincidence! I'm listening to the Red Storm RIsing audiobook and was listening to this chapter last week. Yesterday I found out about your sea battle simulations and today you release a video on this battle. Really cool video, seeing it all play out in real time and with those stunning graphics on top
Any idea of where I can find a cheap/free audiobook version of this book?
@@gruntopolouski5919 I got mine on audible
@@gruntopolouski5919search right here on TH-cam, I listened to a three part where each part is about 10.5hours...
As always, very thorough cap!! Loved this one!!
There is a passage in the book in an earlier chapter where the Airboss describes how he will fight the battle. As they had raid warning from iceland they had an approx time on target for the bombers. The Airboss juggled his fighters so that at the time needed he had all 48 Tomcats in squadrons (not just flights) '200 miles out and we will kick their ass", ripple firing. The kelt swarm did not need a precise target location. But the Kingfish did. So a Bear-D had to light up the carriers with its radar (which had all been kept silent). This was the first detection of raid 2 and as i remember the Backfires were never seen on radar, only the missiles were. So the carrier was pantsless with the Toms out of missiles and a fartsack of Kingfish headed to your floaty base. Even though you have just done this scenario a Mk2 might be in order..... Love your work....
Red Storm Rising...first Tom Clancy book I read, as much as I love Jack Ryan character...overall RSR is my favorite Clancy novel. Harold Coyle - Team Yankee is a good author / novel as well.
Cap, so much respect. This is such a good idea that I wanted to pause and say that before watching.
Great simulation, if I remember correctly after the attack in a later chapter there is comment that a carrier force like that should have had 4 x CVNs to operate that far north. Would be interesting to see the result with the additional 48 Tomcats, additional E2-Cs and extra SM2 ships. Feel it would be a very different result.
They had 4 Hawkeyes and multiple reports of the inbound raid. Harpoon taught me the answer in this case is Hawkeyes far enough out to ensure nobody gets eyeballs (radar) on your fleet. Russia had nothing that could have intercepted them.
Yes! I have been waiting for this ever since I found your channel years ago. Thank you.
Love the channel and thanks to this scenario loving the Red Storm Rising
Would not have read it if not for this video.
I loved "Red Storm Rising" when I read it in high school, as I loved many many Tom Clancy books. "Without Remorse" is probably my favorite. I don't think there's anything applicable for a DCS mission from that one though lol.
LOVE THIS BOOK. I read it on my own in high school, THEN it became required reading for a social studies honors class my senior year. So I read it twice by '92. I am read it again since then plus I have listened to the audio book multiple times. GREAT BOOK! It was ahead of its time.
Any idea of where I can find an audiobook version (free/cheap, hopefully)?
Be interesting to see this scenario. But with a modern CSG
omg this is so cool!! loved watching this & being able to visualize the chapter that I loved so much and reread so much!
I’m sure other people have said this, but you forgot about the F-15 ferry flight - that pilot used to be one of my role models
One of my favourite books and that was a fantastic video. Thanks.
Great job Cap and co! The large formation is probably due to nukes. Spread out and one nuke won’t get the whole fleet. Also back then there was no CEC to coordinate SAM ships so spacing them out made it easier to avoid interference and issues with missile guidance.
37:07 That's actually a interesting question.
I assume that the response would be F-117 nighthawks, but Tom Clancy wouldn't have known about that while writting his book where this happens in 1985. The nighthawk was released to the public in 1988. So... 🤷♂️
Regardless, excellent content as always! Been subscribed for the last year and always enjoy these wargames!
One of the first few chapters after the war starts goes from the pov of an F-117 pilot doing a deep strike on an AWACS. And eventually shooting it down, and then you hear from the pov of an AWACS operator with confirmation of all 5 Soviet AWACS being downed. It’s a really cool chapter actually.
Edit: specifically chapter 17 “The Frisbees of Dreamland”
@@clanmeademagruder9692
And that's what I get from not reading the book-
Wait a minute... I just checked the Wikipedia page and the book came out in 1986. But the F-117 nighthawk wasn't revealed to the public for another 2 years!
🥴
Ugh, I worked all night, and still haven't got a functioning design. My head hurts, I'm going to bed. Some explain this violation of 1980's national security to me and I'll thank you in 7-9 hours from now.
@@classifiedveteran9879 In an interview he stated that he compiled stories from test pilots (hence the name “frisbee” in the book calling back to the “wobbling’ goblin” in real life. He also took info from “UFO” spotters and plane spotters around Area 51 and other facilities to create an idea of what the advanced stealth aircraft would be. He called it the (forgive me if I’m wrong, haven’t read the book in a while) F-19 Frisbee, a stealth aircraft capable of deep penetration attacks. In the book, these are a major pain for the soviets, as they have next to no way to counter them.
TLDR: he took public knowledge and came to his own conclusions, which wasn’t too far from real life.
Hope this helps you understand!
@@classifiedveteran9879 The F-117 wasnt revealed until later but the existence of it and general operating parameters was widely known at the time, given the designation F-19 by the media/observers (note to US, skipping a number and going from F-18 Hornet to F-20 Tigershark isnt a great way to hide an aircrafts existence). I believe in the book Clancy called it the F-19A Ghostrider with the callsign frisbee but that might have been changed to F-119 in later editions.
Love this! One major thing though - the F-8 could only carry four AIM-9's, and I don't think it was capable of Sparrows, as only later models had more than a ranging-radar for their guns. The only other guided missile I know it ever did carry was the air to ground Bullpup, on the "J" variant (question mark?), so those F-4's were FAR more capable of intercept (still only at 32 minutes in, just wanted to make the observation)
Wow!! That was epic.
Well done Cap for modelling all of this, and a great job by all of the Grim Reapers as well.
I'm off to watch the updated version to see how it turns out.
HEY! I was one of the requesters, excited to see you guys do it! *Edit Going off memory here, but I swear that the carrier group only had 2 Hawkeyes up at the time of the raid. NW and NE? Thought the Bears used their emissions to triangulate the Carriers locations.
You were part of the like 500 people who requested this lol, theres atleast a few guys asking for it in the comments of every naval battle, and I think your right about the E-2s, the bears find the locations of the E-2s and logically said the carrier is in the middle of them, but idk, havent read it in a few months.
@@ttpechon2535 IRL, the USN knew better than to do this, as they used deceptive positioning of the AWACS and emissions control several times during exercises in the Norwegian Sea and the NW Pacific *before* 1985 to "hide" the carriers from Soviet maritime surveillance aircraft.
In the book the bears plot the 2 northern E2C's and then just after 06:00 plot the pair to the south of the battle group, forming a box, the slow drifting eastwards giving a rough speed of 20 knots
Fantastic work putting this together!
Great simulation...loved every minute...I would love to see other battles from books reenacted by my favourite gamers...especially with the cap commentary
I love your realism in modeling this out. As much as Clancy modeled it out fairly realisticly, he had to allow the plot armor for one of his main characters in the novel, the Navel Intel Officer, who I believe was in CIC on one of the carriers. There are a more than a few instances, mostly with the weatherman on Iceland, but it is still one of my favorite books. I listen to the audiobook at least once a year, it never gets old.
The super wide fleet arrangement makes sense given the very real possibility of attack with nuclear tipped torpedoes and/or nuclear armed missiles (for example, the AS-6 Kingfish could be equipped with a 350 Kt warhead, and the older Kitchen had a nuclear option as well).
Flight of the Old Dog by Dale Brown is a great book worth checking out
Thanks for my daily GR fix.
I can't think of any off-hand, but if valued viewers have any more book and movie suggestions for naval/air battles, this type of video was really cool.
Great show.
General comment on tactics...
If you're setting a trap you will want your quarry to see whatever they would expect to see. Play into their biases and avoid doing anything that will make them wonder about what's going on. 👍
Very much enjoyed this one, first read the book in 1994 and it has absolutely fascinated me ever since.
I want to say one of the big cause in difference of outcomes was how much secrecy was around AEGIS at the time. Since it was just coming out Clancy likely only had so much to go on and most of that said it was the bees knees. OSINT was basically whatever you could get leaked to you or read in magazines like Popular Mechanics.
That said I don't think it would matter much if it had really happened. That many missiles could likely cause the system to panic. Can't remember wear but I think at one time near there it was a limit of 96 or 100 objects could be tracked and engaged at a time. So 400 missiles/decoys, plus friendlies, plus bandits and all in two different directions with jamming support to burn through. Isn't hard to see how the system tries it's best but can't endure this.
Still a great scene to see played out. Shows how the Convoy War in the Atlantic is different in the Modern age of missiles and bombers versus WWII U-boats.
Great video, enjoy them all. The O.H. Perry Class Guided Missile Frigates did not utilize the SM-2 missile in the 1980's, or ever that I know of. The missile utilized in these Frigates was the less capable SM-1. I was a USN MK-13 GMLS technician back then. The Australian Navy, did obtain some ex-US Perry Class Frigates, and eventually upgrade in them in many ways, including utilizing the SM-2 missile with the MK-13 GMLS. Great job on the videos, keep em' coming!
Thank you for correcting this. Another tin can Navy vet corrected the Spruance AA as point defense only, no area AA.
I recently picked up that book and I kid you not I didn’t put it down for the next week. Loved every second of it.
Great video. I used to play Harpoon which Clancy used a lot and does anyone else remember the RSR game on the commodore. Man some days I wish I could go back in time and play it.
I read Red October and Red Storm Rising as a Midshipman, and was actually on my First Class cruise, reading Storm again, when news broke of Red October being made into a movie. I was excited by that, but have always thought they should have followed up with Storm.
Thank you for serving, I'd love to see an RSR film. Imagine the cast, who would play Toland, or scrawny turned bad ass Edwards and his jar heads? 😊
@SnafuBob it would have to ve a series. Too much amazing content in the book to fit into even an epic length flick.
I’d settle for a miniseries or full cable show like the Sopranos as long as it stayed faithful.
@@MrJmpeezy Very true.
@@gruntopolouski5919 Aye, second that.
Clancy and Larry Bond was playing Harpoon the board game.
Hey Cap, awesome video as usual! Just curious, it looked like the OHPs weren't firing at all - maybe this was why so many more missiles made it through? I would also be very interested to see this same scenario with an equivalent US 2020s CSG and maybe even more modern Russian/Chinese attackers to see how this would go nowdays.
Late to the party so I guess Fixedit has been mentioned for great cinematic versions of Red Storm Rising. Really enjoy 80s cold war stuff. Bravo.
I’ve been wanting this sim for years now! Thank y’all for doing it
The Backfires got in close due to the jamming by the Badgers. The Badgers that followed the Kelts in were the jammers not the weapon carriers. They had the exrra range because they were not carrying the Kelts on the external hardpoints.
This mission really showed that even with 2 CSG the USN were very vulnerable to a mass attack. The second strike during the battle off Iceland showed the need for more aircraft and the split in the bomber regiments made them vulnerable to the Tomcats.
Spread out because ASW warfare was done in rings - the Perry's and Spruances would have been working the picket, while the air defense ships were much closer in.
My favorite frickin book! It's the only one I'll gladly reread every few years. I've been waiting and hoping you guys could tackle this.
Read the book before there were dial up modems :) great vid, thanks, nice one Cap💪
Cap mixed up the nomenclature. The Tu-16 Badger is/was an older non supersonic strategic bomber. The Tu-142 Bear is a recon and anti-sub aircraft. The Tu-22M Backfire is/was the USSRs swept-wing supersonic strategic bomber which carry the Kingfish ASuM (Kitchen in the sim). The Tu-95 are subsonic strategic bombers. He said Raid #1 was Tu-142s but he meant Tu-16 Badgers. Also, the Tu-95s should actually be Tu-142 Bears as per their recon role. All of these were operational in 1985 when the book states the battle happened.
Spectacular episode lads, well done!
My first version of Harpoon came in the "mail" on 10 (?) 5.25" floppy discs. Countless hours on that game. And it just kept getting better.
There has always been a high profile unit within the U.S. Military who wore the cross of the Templars...which I think started first with the British Crusaders Mark I during WW2 , In Iraq 2 were working at the same time, as the Crusaders' Tank unit was packing up to leave , SEAL Team 3 with Chris Kyle were the Crusaders' and wore the cross , while searching for the Syrian Olympic sniper , the tank unit had to unload tanks and bring them to a wall that was being constructed , that we were losing a man a day from that sniper...as SEAL Team 3 set up on a roof top to find his nest .
i have read red storm rising like 10 times, thanks for this vid. The dreamland chapter of the book with the stealth planes is also nice imho